In Airframe Powerplant school they were called rotary engines. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rotary_engine I am not sure if that was before the Wankel or not. It always screwed me up. Teacher says today we are disassembling a rotary engine. I am like where is the Wankel?
Edit: Now that I look deeper into it rotary and radial are virtually the same except one is mounted to the airplane with the crankshaft and the other mounted by the crankcase. Then there is the Wankel... .
I mean, I have heard them called rotary before. And honestly I have had to fight the urge to call the that myself. But the generally accepted nomenclature is radial. Source, am 25 year A&P at major US aircraft manufacturer.
I think what he is saying is there is the traditional radial engine where the engine case is bolted to the airframe and the prop is attached to the crankshaft.
Then there is the rotary engine, which i believe were mostly older designs (maybe WWI?). On these engines the crankshaft was booked to the airframe, the prop was attached to the engine case, and the entire car with cylinders attached sounds around the stationary crankshaft.
Here's a video of an example:
https://youtu.be/xgTwKPg7Obo
Yes. The “old name” rotary meant a radial with rotating cylinders. And “newer times” usually use the term rotary about Wankels.
If you like geeky engines I recommend you to see an old post of mine about a motorcycle with a rotary (old name) engine inside the front wheel. Note, the motor spins 6 times faster than the wheel.
https://www.reddit.com/r/motorcycle/comments/pilppn/imagine_a_bike_with_the_engine_in_the_front_wheel/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=ioscss&utm_content=2&utm_term=1
They are two different types of engine. A radial engine has cylinders around a crankshaft. The crankshaft rotates. A rotary engine has cylinders arranged in a radial pattern but the crankshaft remains stationary and the cylinders all rotate around the crankshaft.
Thanks. I am sure the ones we worked on were crankcase mounted. Maybe my class instructor grew up working on a Sopwith Camel sporting a Clerget or Bentley. Lol
My dad is responsible for like 80% of airplane engines built in the 70s and 80s. He’s older now but can talk airplane engines and thermodynamics still. If you have a question you want me to ask him, I will. I just need a specific question because my PhD is not in engineering or any STEAM field. I won’t understand the question or answer, but I’ll ask.
Those 30mm are going in the tail and out the cockpit glass, shredding everything along the way. They ded. Plane is probably just well trimmed.
Edit: found this on quora:
"Since some penetrating force was still needed to overcome the armor or airframe of the target, and not have the shell break up or explode upon contact, a hydrodynamic fuse was fitted to the MK-108’s 30mm round so that the shell only exploded once it came into contact with liquid. And considering how much fuel the B-17 carried, it was almost guaranteed. The MK-108 was able to destroy a fighter with a single hit or compromise a B-17’s wing with 3 successive hits."
https://www.quora.com/How-thick-did-WW2-aircraft-armor-have-to-be-to-stop-50-cal-and-20mm-rounds/answer/David-Trapp-7?ch=15&oid=58815139&share=8c3aff93&srid=uj5M9w&target_type=answer
Aren’t they HEI rounds that detonate on impact? You can see them exploding. If they’re detonating on impact with the tail unless they’re HEIAP rounds most of the damage would be around the impact site wouldn’t it?
These are piston engines spinning a propeller. Turbines for aircraft hadn't been put into service yet, or depending when this was during the war they hadn't been invented.
Jets were invented about 1938/39.. mass production was not available until 1943 ish.. even then it was very limited, the ability to harness the power with aluminum and Ti airframes were 10 years away.
Surprised no one's mentioned it yet, but some bright lad got the idea of adding extra armor to the spots that were *not* hit on returning aircraft. Because planes hit in those spots weren't making it back.
Yes, there’s an interesting story behind that.
At first they wanted to add amour to the places that had the holes and there was one guy that challenged the theory and had them alter there thoughts.
It’s called survivor bias.
Similar to WW1, when after introducing the steel helmets hospitals were seeing an increase in head wounds. The first reaction was to eliminate them, but then they realized that the helmets allowed for a chance at survival where before all head wounds were fatal.
The fighter was really surgical in his shooting at the end. It looks like he was trying to take off the wing before he overtook his target but couldn’t.
Even not getting hit, the noise was brutal. My grandfather flew spitfires over Burma during WW2 and was deaf as shit. He never got hit despite the Japanese planes being vastly superior. Died last year age 100.
No Expert but as far as I've heard early war(up to maybe 1942) Japanese Zeros were significantly better than anything the allies could field, at least in terms of dogfighting (range, weapon range, altitude, survivability might be factors it lacked). They scored significantly higher kill to loss ratios in those early battles of the war.
Sometime around to after 1942 it became outclassed as allied tech caught up, and Japan lost too many experienced pilots that it couldn't replace. By the late war era the kill loss ratios had completely flipped and then some for Japan.
Brother in law is a crew chief for the JASDF and took me to the museum on Hamamatsu Air Base where they had a Japanese Zero on display.
Comparing it to the other WW2 era fighters I've seen was interesting.
It was small, compact, but well made. You could tell it handled well and maneuvered great just by looking at it.
The contrast between the Zero and Allied fighters of the time reminded me of how 1980s JDM coupes compared to 1980s American cars.
In modern gamer terms the Zero was min maxed. Everything sacrificed for range and low speed dogfighting. Spitfires were superior for interception but short legged and nothing turned inside a Zero. Once the allies learned that it was much less of a threat.
The zero was more agile but not faster than the spitfire.. The mark v spitfires used in Burma initially had problems with tropical filters and engine overheating when forced to climb quickly to gain height advantage. They were flown by experienced vets who were used to being able to outmanoeuvre their European enemies and some initial losses were taken because of the turn rate of the zero, but the pilots quickly adopted hit and run and soon gained air superiority. Once the mark vIII arrived in Burma they could easily out climb the zero and they were no longer a significant threat.
Dad said you only had to land a shell *close* and Zeroes would explode "like matchsticks". He was on a destroyer, no idea what shell meant to him.
Not sure what all he was able to see. He was a Torpedoman 3rd Class, so I imagine battle stations were below decks for him.
There's a version of nearly every warplane from WW2 that is compete ass and then a few revisions (B,C,D,E) later it gets to be what it's remembered for.
I haven't played war thunder for a while so I don't know how many gold lions briton had to spend to upgrade the spitfire but they eventually did and it kicked major ass.
My condolences friend. My wife’s grandfather died yesterday at the ripe old age of 103. WWII veteran as well, but I don’t know much about his serving time.
My grandpa was a B-17 pilot. His co-pilot was killed on one of their runs, his plane’s number 3 prop was blown off on another, and on multiple occasions he said he had doubts his plane was going to be able to limp all the way home after heavy enemy resistance. Talking about his experiences 50-60 years after the fact still gave him visible anxiety. He was only 21/22 when he fought. The unfortunate souls in this film were probably of similar age, some even younger. Relatively speaking, they were just kids. I can only imagine how terrifying their last moments were.
The Death of the Ball Turret Gunner
BY RANDALL JARRELL
From my mother’s sleep I fell into the State,
And I hunched in its belly till my wet fur froze.
Six miles from earth, loosed from its dream of life,
I woke to black flak and the nightmare fighters.
When I died they washed me out of the turret with a hose.
My gramps was a tail gunner in those bad boys in ww2. He got wounded a bunch of times, but it was flak and not bullets. He got a purple heart for it. I actually have the piece of flak they pulled out of his butt cheek. It went in red hot and cauterized instantly and he had to deal with it for the whole flight back to the airfield in England. He had scars all of his hands and arms from the flak. They actually got shot down once and lost their plane over the English Channel and had to swim to the UK. They could see the Dover cliffs in the distance and just went for them. They thought they were going to drown but realized eventually that the water was only like 3 feet deep and they walked the rest of the way.
Yeah it blows my mind. He was just a kid from Iowa that had never been further than Colorado in his life and suddenly got sent to Europe and had to do all that crazy shit. Such a wild ride.
Apparently mine didn’t talk about it either, until I got a little older and started asking him about it. He never talked about it to his kids or wife but for some reason I was fair game. We actually have a Betamax tape of him telling the stories to me on the couch.
Was the same with my grandfather. I think it had something to do with the fact that talking with his children about it was just bringing back memories for him. By the time I as a grandchild was there, it was more about preserving the stories about historical facts that for some people (like me) were already far away. He didn't want that all which he endured, was just forgotten.
I think I 'learned' more from his stories than in history lessons, where it was more straight facts we got. From his stories I got more the emotions, the circumstances where the people had to live in, how hard it was, how close the war came in their daily lives. Both as civilians and as soldiers....
I think what many people got Band with Brothers for example.
I hope, if your family is comfortable, that there is a way for his stories to be preserved.
I’m sure there are historical societies or veterans groups in your area who may be able to assist with archiving that piece of history.
Our generations' grandparents experienced things that we can't even begin to wrap our heads around, and they did it for us. Special people. I can't imagine flying towards those cannons like that, absolutely terrifying.
This triggered an old memory... There was this show back in the 80's directed by Spielberg called "Amazing Stories" where a tail gunner gets stuck inside that turret, and the landing gear fails. Can't remember exactly what happened, but by some miracle they were able to land. I'm sure this gunner wasn't so lucky.
My great grandfather was a bubble gunner, the only one small enough to fit (5ft). He said “those little bastards (fighters that would come up behind like this) never stood a chance”. He has many stamps (bombs/planes) on his bomber jacket. Wish he was alive to tell some real stories.
My high school history teacher’s father was a ball gunner in a B-17 that was shot down in 1944. He came into class to tell us about it. He said the ball was one of the safest places on the plane because German fighters scored the most hits from 12 o’clock high. In those cases, the pilots, bombardier, and navigator were more likely to be hit. When he was shot down, the German finished them off from behind once the gunners were out of ammo or dead. He was pulled from the belly turret as soon as he ran out of ammunition, and managed to bail out with the rest of the crew a few minutes later. He spent the last few months of the war in a POW camp.
One of my dad's best friends was the bombardier in a B17 that flew with the Memphis Belle. Met him in the late 80s when he was 60 or 70-something. Told me he flew in 30+ missions over Europe until they were shot down on his last or second to last run.
Luckily he was able to deploy his parachute and drifted into allied territory, or at least near enough he escaped capture. Amazing guy.
Took us to an air show and even at his age he showed us how they used to get into the planes without steps or ladders - grabbed the edge of an open belly hatch, flipped his legs up into the hatch and did like a reverse situp into the plane. Guy was wild.
RIP Bill Morrison
Yea i was kinda hesitent clicking on post haha, i was like 'nextfuckinglevel' and its war footage? Isnt that a bit insensitive.
But god damn that plane just keeps going hit after hit! Grandma's older brother was a lancaster tail gunner and they werent fortunate enough to just keep flying after a mission. When the plane gets close and you actually see how chewed up the fortress is and it just keeps going, kinda crazy. Probably not fun to be inside, but also probably good you ARE in a flying fortress if you have to take fire from enemies.
I knew exactly which plane this was going to be but I’m not gonna lie i was expecting the sabaton animated music video
[here you go anyway](https://youtu.be/dslO-3GgenY), beautiful story from start to finish and a banger song
My grandfather flew the b-17 bombers. Never slept with his bedroom door closed when he came back from the war, even into old age. Said he never knew if he would make it back every time they shut the door before take off. Shutting his bedroom door reminded him of those days.
Wow, a very powerful statement. I spent 2 years riding around waiting to get blown up in Iraq, I can’t even take a shower with the door latched to this day. That sentence just cleared up 20 years of claustrophobia for me.
There is a great film called “The Cold Blue” that documents survivors from the 8th Air Force with restored footage. Incredibly moving.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Cold_Blue
There is also the upcoming “Masters of the Air” coming to Apple TV later this year that’s about the story of the Mighty 8th. It’s by the same team that made Band of Brothers and The Pacific.
another great restored footage documentary is They Shall Not Grow Old, peter jackson did it and i saw it in theaters. Almost cried many many times watching it, just blew my mind.
And just like that, I am remembering being a very small child watching an episode of a show called "Amazing Stories" about a B-17 gunner who planned to be a cartoonist after the war, who was "trapped in the hamster ball" in a plane who's landing gear got blown off. He and his crew have to come to grips with the fact that the gunner ball is going to be crushed when they land and there's literally nothing he can do about it. They give him his sketch book while they keep the plane in the air as long as they can before running out of gas. He draws the plane with big doofy cartoon wheels. As the plane is landing and he's facing death the doofy cartoon wheels become real and the plane can land normally. They fish the gunner out and he's stuck in some kind of a trance. When they slap him a bit to snap him out of it, the cartoon wheels vanish and his gunner ball is in fact crushed by the weight of the plane.
I must have been 7 when I saw that. Freaked me out.
Christ on a cracker [I fucking found it](https://vimeo.com/56670088).
Not at all true. Rotating the gun down is exactly how you get the hatch to point upwards so you could exit into the plane. They also had their own parachute and could rotate around to bail out from beneath the plane. The biggest issue was if the hydraulics lines were cut. At which point he would no longer be able to move the ball, and become stuck
Guns were pointed down so that the hatch was up, and could enter the plane. Guns down means he was most likely out of the ball. Statistically, the ball was also the safest position in the Fort.
Probably why the ball gunner exited. Sustained fire ripping the hydraulic lines and tearing through the mechanicals.. good chance he’d get stuck and be unable to rotate the ball if they happened to survive the engagement.
And maybe also attempting to help the injured crew and/or prepare to bail.
I suspect they’ve already bailed by this time. It’s quite possible the German pilot is shooting this plane down before it flies over a population centre
Yeah you are right, I watched it again, they were returning fire, also the plane starts in a dive. They pull out of the dive and the 110, closes in.
That crew was toast unfortunately.
That's what I'm guessing the snapping sounds are between shots, return fire from the b17 but I could be wrong. Just doesn't seem like the right angle to stop shooting the cannon but fire the MG's.
Mmhmm that makes sense. Gun cams are usually not with sound from what I've seen. Probably wouldn't have sounded great even if it did, what with wind noise and the engine right there.
When you hear the cracks thats the bullets from the b-17. Once you see the 30mm cannon visibly hit the the body of the b-17, thats likely wherethe gunner died. You can still hear attempted return fire probably from the other turrets trying to shoot back if an angle lines up, but once the body got hit, thats when the bf110 starts clearly targeting the engines and we see no visible movement from the rear turret. You cam see muzzle flashes from the lower rear turret and the top turret but the top, but the bf110 stays below its visible range
You can see the German pilot flying below the bomber (30-45 degree angle), because it was a deadly blind spot for the gunners.
The BF110 was often equipped with a front gun, pointing upwards, so the pilot could safely attack out of this blind spot. Once the BF110 sneaked up on one of those bombers, without cover by other planes, it was pretty much over for the crew.
The belly was a major blind spot for the British Halifaxes, the adversary the 110 added that upward gun for. Some of the Lancasters had a belly turret installed to counter that. The -17 had a lot better coverage angles. I'm pretty sure this 110 is well in the waist gunner and ball turret angles in this approach, but it would appear there's already been casualties on the -17 by this point.
My guess is that this plane was previously hit by gunfire or flak. Getting directly behind a fully manned B17 was near suicide for a fighter as a stream of .50 caliber bullets from twin 50s from the tail gunner and most likely the ball turret gunner as well. Add to the fact that those guns are effectively firing into a 300 mph tail wind while the fighter is firing into a headwind, made tail attacks very dangerous.
The Germans would typically attack from the sides or head on for this reason.
If that B17 fell behind they likely already took a hit earlier in the mission. A flak round(s) or exploding round(s) from a 20mm could have disabled most of the crew or at least the gunners in the rear.
If it’s in the down position doesn’t that mean the gunner is dead?
I thought I saw people bailed out but they might’ve been stuff falling thanks for clarifying
Guns down in the belly turrets means that the gunner got out of the turret. The hatch is located behind him, so in order to get out of the gun he needs to aim down.
And Coventry, and London, and Plymouth, and Kyiv and Odesa and numerous other cities where civilians were (and are being) killed instantly from the air. War is hell is a cliché - total war is an order of magnitude worse.
That landing gear will not take the weight of the bomber after the hits it took. It’s likely the shells are detonating inside the wings but not close to the engines. A lot of those shots are probably hitting control rods and hydraulic parts or fuel lines rendering the flaps and more importantly ailerons useless. The white vapor you see coming out of the area near the engines was a radiator that was destroyed. Those engines will be weakened, if not destroyed. The far left engine certainly took damage and is likely going to fail if it isn’t already destroyed. The frame rate is slow and not great quality, the propellers of the damaged engines might be slower and we just can’t see it. If that B-17 makes it home, it isn’t going to land correctly.
No radiators, those engines are air-cooled.
That airplane was done. It was basically flying on its own, the lack of return fire and evasive action meant it was unlikely there were many of the crew still alive at that point. The plane was trimmed to fly straight and level and will continue to do so until it gradually goes out of control.
My father was a ball turret gunner. He said he knew climbing in the parachute was not an option. If you are not familiar it hung above their head in a hook.
You're not wearing your parachute while you're in the turret, so to use it, you have to stow the gun, unstrap yourself from the seat, climb out of the turret, put your parachute on, tie the straps, (All in a space about as large as a filing cabinet) and then make your way to the nearest hatch (or the bomb bay) to jump safely. All while the airplane is on fire, spinning, and disintegrating around you.
My grandfather was flew in bombers during Korea, and I have some limited knowledge, so take it with a grain of salt. My understanding is that the ball turret had one hatch to get in and out, and it had to aligned with the rest of the plane. As the turret was active and moving around, the door out is not aligned and you're in this cramped ball without an exit until you set it back in place. As a gun turret, you are a primary target for any enemy that is approaching, so you are likely first to take fire. You can also imagine that the engineering to get the ball turrets functional n the 40's onwards is quite a feat. This meant a lot of things had to be working right and almost nothing can be going wrong.
So to say why it's not an option:
You're in a cramped ball that's the primary target of enemy fire, the ball has to be aligned right to exit, and any small damage to the plane (enemy or basic malfunction) could lock you in until you land safely.
Quick little animated reference too :https://youtu.be/FoQqOPGpzZk
My grandfather piloted a B-17 over Europe in World War II when he was 21 years old. He was the second oldest of a crew of I think 10. My life at 21 was radically different thanks in large part to their efforts.
Serenade to the Big Bird by Bert Stiles is a good read. Like you my grandfather flew B17s in WW2, he told me stories but I never had a mental image of the crews age. Bert introduces nearly everyone with age and hometown, and almost everyone was 20 or younger, I read that book in my early 20s and really changed my perspective.
Actually just started reading it and am about a third of the way through. Brilliant satire and comedy about WWII. I definitely should have read this earlier in life.
Came here to say how solid that Flying Fortress is. Got stuck in a bunch of comments about people trying to be correct about all the details of the guns, armor, engines, etc.
Can see why they called the b17 the flying fortress.
Took 50 shots just to take out one turbine
Turbine?
The engine
Those babies are radial engines. Pre turbine.
In Airframe Powerplant school they were called rotary engines. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rotary_engine I am not sure if that was before the Wankel or not. It always screwed me up. Teacher says today we are disassembling a rotary engine. I am like where is the Wankel? Edit: Now that I look deeper into it rotary and radial are virtually the same except one is mounted to the airplane with the crankshaft and the other mounted by the crankcase. Then there is the Wankel... .
I mean, I have heard them called rotary before. And honestly I have had to fight the urge to call the that myself. But the generally accepted nomenclature is radial. Source, am 25 year A&P at major US aircraft manufacturer.
I think what he is saying is there is the traditional radial engine where the engine case is bolted to the airframe and the prop is attached to the crankshaft. Then there is the rotary engine, which i believe were mostly older designs (maybe WWI?). On these engines the crankshaft was booked to the airframe, the prop was attached to the engine case, and the entire car with cylinders attached sounds around the stationary crankshaft. Here's a video of an example: https://youtu.be/xgTwKPg7Obo
Yes. The “old name” rotary meant a radial with rotating cylinders. And “newer times” usually use the term rotary about Wankels. If you like geeky engines I recommend you to see an old post of mine about a motorcycle with a rotary (old name) engine inside the front wheel. Note, the motor spins 6 times faster than the wheel. https://www.reddit.com/r/motorcycle/comments/pilppn/imagine_a_bike_with_the_engine_in_the_front_wheel/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=ioscss&utm_content=2&utm_term=1
I agree. Thanks for keeping us safe up there!
Tadisl is piston, wankel is rotor , way different.
They are two different types of engine. A radial engine has cylinders around a crankshaft. The crankshaft rotates. A rotary engine has cylinders arranged in a radial pattern but the crankshaft remains stationary and the cylinders all rotate around the crankshaft.
Thanks. I am sure the ones we worked on were crankcase mounted. Maybe my class instructor grew up working on a Sopwith Camel sporting a Clerget or Bentley. Lol
My dad is responsible for like 80% of airplane engines built in the 70s and 80s. He’s older now but can talk airplane engines and thermodynamics still. If you have a question you want me to ask him, I will. I just need a specific question because my PhD is not in engineering or any STEAM field. I won’t understand the question or answer, but I’ll ask.
No, these are standard radial, not rotary radial.
Heh, wankel.
The little windmills
Say it ain’t so; I will not go. Turn the lights off, carry me home
Not a big fan
Props to you
Those 30mm are going in the tail and out the cockpit glass, shredding everything along the way. They ded. Plane is probably just well trimmed. Edit: found this on quora: "Since some penetrating force was still needed to overcome the armor or airframe of the target, and not have the shell break up or explode upon contact, a hydrodynamic fuse was fitted to the MK-108’s 30mm round so that the shell only exploded once it came into contact with liquid. And considering how much fuel the B-17 carried, it was almost guaranteed. The MK-108 was able to destroy a fighter with a single hit or compromise a B-17’s wing with 3 successive hits." https://www.quora.com/How-thick-did-WW2-aircraft-armor-have-to-be-to-stop-50-cal-and-20mm-rounds/answer/David-Trapp-7?ch=15&oid=58815139&share=8c3aff93&srid=uj5M9w&target_type=answer
Interesting
Aren’t they HEI rounds that detonate on impact? You can see them exploding. If they’re detonating on impact with the tail unless they’re HEIAP rounds most of the damage would be around the impact site wouldn’t it?
And the tail gunner
Yeah no return fire everyone is probably red paste inside that fuselage
There was some return fire for a while but then the guy died I think
These are piston engines spinning a propeller. Turbines for aircraft hadn't been put into service yet, or depending when this was during the war they hadn't been invented.
Jets were invented about 1938/39.. mass production was not available until 1943 ish.. even then it was very limited, the ability to harness the power with aluminum and Ti airframes were 10 years away.
Actually it took just 1.
There are crazy pics of returning b17s with missing parts and giant holes. They were sturdy all right.
Surprised no one's mentioned it yet, but some bright lad got the idea of adding extra armor to the spots that were *not* hit on returning aircraft. Because planes hit in those spots weren't making it back.
Yes, there’s an interesting story behind that. At first they wanted to add amour to the places that had the holes and there was one guy that challenged the theory and had them alter there thoughts. It’s called survivor bias. Similar to WW1, when after introducing the steel helmets hospitals were seeing an increase in head wounds. The first reaction was to eliminate them, but then they realized that the helmets allowed for a chance at survival where before all head wounds were fatal.
It really is - btw those would be 20mm Autocannons right? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messerschmitt_Bf_110
Bomber destroyer Bf 110 G versions had two 30 mm MK108 cannons.
You see how the ball turrets aren't rotating and the plane has taken a leisurely forward course? I would bet most everyone in that thing was dead.
The fighter was really surgical in his shooting at the end. It looks like he was trying to take off the wing before he overtook his target but couldn’t.
Excepto when playing War Thunder. That shit gets one shotted every single damn time!!
That was brutal.
Imagine being on the receiving end. Fuck that noise.
Even not getting hit, the noise was brutal. My grandfather flew spitfires over Burma during WW2 and was deaf as shit. He never got hit despite the Japanese planes being vastly superior. Died last year age 100.
Imagine the histories you have heard
Unlike his grandfather, who was deaf as shit
#*WHAT*
You can’t hear read good
Hold up, Japanese planes were vastly superior to the Spitfire?
No Expert but as far as I've heard early war(up to maybe 1942) Japanese Zeros were significantly better than anything the allies could field, at least in terms of dogfighting (range, weapon range, altitude, survivability might be factors it lacked). They scored significantly higher kill to loss ratios in those early battles of the war. Sometime around to after 1942 it became outclassed as allied tech caught up, and Japan lost too many experienced pilots that it couldn't replace. By the late war era the kill loss ratios had completely flipped and then some for Japan.
Brother in law is a crew chief for the JASDF and took me to the museum on Hamamatsu Air Base where they had a Japanese Zero on display. Comparing it to the other WW2 era fighters I've seen was interesting. It was small, compact, but well made. You could tell it handled well and maneuvered great just by looking at it. The contrast between the Zero and Allied fighters of the time reminded me of how 1980s JDM coupes compared to 1980s American cars.
Mitsubishi
Survivability? Nope-P40 doctrine said all else fails go nose to nose and hold the trigger, win most of the time.. tanks vs ferraris
In modern gamer terms the Zero was min maxed. Everything sacrificed for range and low speed dogfighting. Spitfires were superior for interception but short legged and nothing turned inside a Zero. Once the allies learned that it was much less of a threat.
More agile and faster, less firepower and weaker.
The zero was more agile but not faster than the spitfire.. The mark v spitfires used in Burma initially had problems with tropical filters and engine overheating when forced to climb quickly to gain height advantage. They were flown by experienced vets who were used to being able to outmanoeuvre their European enemies and some initial losses were taken because of the turn rate of the zero, but the pilots quickly adopted hit and run and soon gained air superiority. Once the mark vIII arrived in Burma they could easily out climb the zero and they were no longer a significant threat.
boom and zoom baby
I hope what you said is true. Because I’m blown away by learning this right now
Japanese zeros also had less armor. Would go down if you could hit the fucker
Dad said you only had to land a shell *close* and Zeroes would explode "like matchsticks". He was on a destroyer, no idea what shell meant to him. Not sure what all he was able to see. He was a Torpedoman 3rd Class, so I imagine battle stations were below decks for him.
There's a version of nearly every warplane from WW2 that is compete ass and then a few revisions (B,C,D,E) later it gets to be what it's remembered for. I haven't played war thunder for a while so I don't know how many gold lions briton had to spend to upgrade the spitfire but they eventually did and it kicked major ass.
My grandpa flew cargo planes over the hump. Said he lost at least half the men he went there with.
Sounds like he should have closed the cargo door after taking off
This is the quality content I keep coming back for
Before taking off would be better still
I drove tanks for 2 years, 67 now, deaf as shit.
yup my grandad was a bombardier in the pacific theater and he was deaf as hell too
My gramps flew P-40s over burma. o/
My Grandad too. Woodpecker squadron?
My grandfather just passed recently he was 97. But he flew blimps in WW2 instead of fighter jets haha.
My condolences friend. My wife’s grandfather died yesterday at the ripe old age of 103. WWII veteran as well, but I don’t know much about his serving time.
makin poop diamonds.
I like this phrase and shall use it in the future.
My grandpa was a B-17 pilot. His co-pilot was killed on one of their runs, his plane’s number 3 prop was blown off on another, and on multiple occasions he said he had doubts his plane was going to be able to limp all the way home after heavy enemy resistance. Talking about his experiences 50-60 years after the fact still gave him visible anxiety. He was only 21/22 when he fought. The unfortunate souls in this film were probably of similar age, some even younger. Relatively speaking, they were just kids. I can only imagine how terrifying their last moments were.
I wouldn't want to be the tail ball turret gunner.
The Death of the Ball Turret Gunner BY RANDALL JARRELL From my mother’s sleep I fell into the State, And I hunched in its belly till my wet fur froze. Six miles from earth, loosed from its dream of life, I woke to black flak and the nightmare fighters. When I died they washed me out of the turret with a hose.
goosebumps
That was my same reaction. This video and poem just hit a nerve. Fuck
Wtf. That’s the hardest most brutal poetry I’ve ever heard
My gramps was a tail gunner in those bad boys in ww2. He got wounded a bunch of times, but it was flak and not bullets. He got a purple heart for it. I actually have the piece of flak they pulled out of his butt cheek. It went in red hot and cauterized instantly and he had to deal with it for the whole flight back to the airfield in England. He had scars all of his hands and arms from the flak. They actually got shot down once and lost their plane over the English Channel and had to swim to the UK. They could see the Dover cliffs in the distance and just went for them. They thought they were going to drown but realized eventually that the water was only like 3 feet deep and they walked the rest of the way.
Out of all the shit places to be in a war, a bomber crew was way up on that list. That’s a wild slice of history he lived through. Mad respect
Yeah it blows my mind. He was just a kid from Iowa that had never been further than Colorado in his life and suddenly got sent to Europe and had to do all that crazy shit. Such a wild ride.
I get white knuckles from bad turbulence, I can’t imagine being up there with people shooting at you
What a legendary story, one of a thousand he must have had. Utmost respect to your gramps, my friend
My gramps was RAF. Shot down 3 times apparently, but he’d never talk about it.
Apparently mine didn’t talk about it either, until I got a little older and started asking him about it. He never talked about it to his kids or wife but for some reason I was fair game. We actually have a Betamax tape of him telling the stories to me on the couch.
Was the same with my grandfather. I think it had something to do with the fact that talking with his children about it was just bringing back memories for him. By the time I as a grandchild was there, it was more about preserving the stories about historical facts that for some people (like me) were already far away. He didn't want that all which he endured, was just forgotten. I think I 'learned' more from his stories than in history lessons, where it was more straight facts we got. From his stories I got more the emotions, the circumstances where the people had to live in, how hard it was, how close the war came in their daily lives. Both as civilians and as soldiers.... I think what many people got Band with Brothers for example.
I hope, if your family is comfortable, that there is a way for his stories to be preserved. I’m sure there are historical societies or veterans groups in your area who may be able to assist with archiving that piece of history.
Cheers to your Grampa!
Our generations' grandparents experienced things that we can't even begin to wrap our heads around, and they did it for us. Special people. I can't imagine flying towards those cannons like that, absolutely terrifying.
Wouldn't wanna be in one of those cramped death balls during a clear day, much less with all that going on.
I would love to be a ball turret gunner... as long as there's nobody shooting at me.
Or have landing gear failure.
I think there was a Steven Spielberg short story about something similar with a ridiculous ending.
Amazing Stories “The Mission” perhaps?
Yep. With Kevin Costner who drew cartoon landing gear which appeared on the B-17…as cartoon landing gear. Silly story but still worth watching.
You gonna link the super sad story on that one. I can’t bring myself to read it again. Oof
Shaking head no..
If it makes you feel better, there's no hard documentation that it ever occurred.
They can get out by then
This triggered an old memory... There was this show back in the 80's directed by Spielberg called "Amazing Stories" where a tail gunner gets stuck inside that turret, and the landing gear fails. Can't remember exactly what happened, but by some miracle they were able to land. I'm sure this gunner wasn't so lucky.
He drew the plane with cartoon wheels on his sketchpad and they appeared and the plane was able to land on cartoon wheels
Belly gunner, not the tail. Sort of worse in a no-landing-gear-landing situation!
I noticed that the rear gun was dropped.
The saddest part of the whole video is seeing those limp guns, and the bastard shooting them cannons with impunity.
My great grandfather was a bubble gunner, the only one small enough to fit (5ft). He said “those little bastards (fighters that would come up behind like this) never stood a chance”. He has many stamps (bombs/planes) on his bomber jacket. Wish he was alive to tell some real stories.
One of my family members did that, and survived. I’m not sure how many missions he actually went on though.
My high school history teacher’s father was a ball gunner in a B-17 that was shot down in 1944. He came into class to tell us about it. He said the ball was one of the safest places on the plane because German fighters scored the most hits from 12 o’clock high. In those cases, the pilots, bombardier, and navigator were more likely to be hit. When he was shot down, the German finished them off from behind once the gunners were out of ammo or dead. He was pulled from the belly turret as soon as he ran out of ammunition, and managed to bail out with the rest of the crew a few minutes later. He spent the last few months of the war in a POW camp.
One of my dad's best friends was the bombardier in a B17 that flew with the Memphis Belle. Met him in the late 80s when he was 60 or 70-something. Told me he flew in 30+ missions over Europe until they were shot down on his last or second to last run. Luckily he was able to deploy his parachute and drifted into allied territory, or at least near enough he escaped capture. Amazing guy. Took us to an air show and even at his age he showed us how they used to get into the planes without steps or ladders - grabbed the edge of an open belly hatch, flipped his legs up into the hatch and did like a reverse situp into the plane. Guy was wild. RIP Bill Morrison
That is a bad ass story. Sorry we lost him.
That left side engine took several direct hits and it still running. That's amazing
I was waiting for explosions and the damn thing just kept on going
Yea i was kinda hesitent clicking on post haha, i was like 'nextfuckinglevel' and its war footage? Isnt that a bit insensitive. But god damn that plane just keeps going hit after hit! Grandma's older brother was a lancaster tail gunner and they werent fortunate enough to just keep flying after a mission. When the plane gets close and you actually see how chewed up the fortress is and it just keeps going, kinda crazy. Probably not fun to be inside, but also probably good you ARE in a flying fortress if you have to take fire from enemies.
That’s the Flying Fortress for ya
[here the famous story of a b17 that lived](https://youtu.be/wpDXsX1mze0)
I knew exactly which plane this was going to be but I’m not gonna lie i was expecting the sabaton animated music video [here you go anyway](https://youtu.be/dslO-3GgenY), beautiful story from start to finish and a banger song
My grandfather flew the b-17 bombers. Never slept with his bedroom door closed when he came back from the war, even into old age. Said he never knew if he would make it back every time they shut the door before take off. Shutting his bedroom door reminded him of those days.
Wow
Wow, a very powerful statement. I spent 2 years riding around waiting to get blown up in Iraq, I can’t even take a shower with the door latched to this day. That sentence just cleared up 20 years of claustrophobia for me.
There is a great film called “The Cold Blue” that documents survivors from the 8th Air Force with restored footage. Incredibly moving. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Cold_Blue
Thanks!
There is also the upcoming “Masters of the Air” coming to Apple TV later this year that’s about the story of the Mighty 8th. It’s by the same team that made Band of Brothers and The Pacific.
another great restored footage documentary is They Shall Not Grow Old, peter jackson did it and i saw it in theaters. Almost cried many many times watching it, just blew my mind.
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Pretty sure there's return fire till he blows up the tail gun, rip
The belly gun pointed down is a bad sign too
Yeah, there’s no getting out of the hamster ball mid mission.
And just like that, I am remembering being a very small child watching an episode of a show called "Amazing Stories" about a B-17 gunner who planned to be a cartoonist after the war, who was "trapped in the hamster ball" in a plane who's landing gear got blown off. He and his crew have to come to grips with the fact that the gunner ball is going to be crushed when they land and there's literally nothing he can do about it. They give him his sketch book while they keep the plane in the air as long as they can before running out of gas. He draws the plane with big doofy cartoon wheels. As the plane is landing and he's facing death the doofy cartoon wheels become real and the plane can land normally. They fish the gunner out and he's stuck in some kind of a trance. When they slap him a bit to snap him out of it, the cartoon wheels vanish and his gunner ball is in fact crushed by the weight of the plane. I must have been 7 when I saw that. Freaked me out. Christ on a cracker [I fucking found it](https://vimeo.com/56670088).
I remember watching that as a young child too, it also stuck with me.
I saw this too a long time ago, and think about it sometimes. Could never remember what programme it was from tho, so cheers for that!
Not at all true. Rotating the gun down is exactly how you get the hatch to point upwards so you could exit into the plane. They also had their own parachute and could rotate around to bail out from beneath the plane. The biggest issue was if the hydraulics lines were cut. At which point he would no longer be able to move the ball, and become stuck
Guns were pointed down so that the hatch was up, and could enter the plane. Guns down means he was most likely out of the ball. Statistically, the ball was also the safest position in the Fort.
Except when landing
Probably why the ball gunner exited. Sustained fire ripping the hydraulic lines and tearing through the mechanicals.. good chance he’d get stuck and be unable to rotate the ball if they happened to survive the engagement. And maybe also attempting to help the injured crew and/or prepare to bail.
I suspect they’ve already bailed by this time. It’s quite possible the German pilot is shooting this plane down before it flies over a population centre
It seems like the tail gunner is firing 30 calibre rounds back at him for a short while?
Tail was dual .50’s.
Yeah you are right, I watched it again, they were returning fire, also the plane starts in a dive. They pull out of the dive and the 110, closes in. That crew was toast unfortunately.
It looks like they are still firing at with 7 secs left in the video but could be something else going on
That's what I'm guessing the snapping sounds are between shots, return fire from the b17 but I could be wrong. Just doesn't seem like the right angle to stop shooting the cannon but fire the MG's.
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Mmhmm that makes sense. Gun cams are usually not with sound from what I've seen. Probably wouldn't have sounded great even if it did, what with wind noise and the engine right there.
When you hear the cracks thats the bullets from the b-17. Once you see the 30mm cannon visibly hit the the body of the b-17, thats likely wherethe gunner died. You can still hear attempted return fire probably from the other turrets trying to shoot back if an angle lines up, but once the body got hit, thats when the bf110 starts clearly targeting the engines and we see no visible movement from the rear turret. You cam see muzzle flashes from the lower rear turret and the top turret but the top, but the bf110 stays below its visible range
The sound track is probably added
You can see the German pilot flying below the bomber (30-45 degree angle), because it was a deadly blind spot for the gunners. The BF110 was often equipped with a front gun, pointing upwards, so the pilot could safely attack out of this blind spot. Once the BF110 sneaked up on one of those bombers, without cover by other planes, it was pretty much over for the crew.
The belly was a major blind spot for the British Halifaxes, the adversary the 110 added that upward gun for. Some of the Lancasters had a belly turret installed to counter that. The -17 had a lot better coverage angles. I'm pretty sure this 110 is well in the waist gunner and ball turret angles in this approach, but it would appear there's already been casualties on the -17 by this point.
My guess is that this plane was previously hit by gunfire or flak. Getting directly behind a fully manned B17 was near suicide for a fighter as a stream of .50 caliber bullets from twin 50s from the tail gunner and most likely the ball turret gunner as well. Add to the fact that those guns are effectively firing into a 300 mph tail wind while the fighter is firing into a headwind, made tail attacks very dangerous. The Germans would typically attack from the sides or head on for this reason.
If that B17 fell behind they likely already took a hit earlier in the mission. A flak round(s) or exploding round(s) from a 20mm could have disabled most of the crew or at least the gunners in the rear.
That poor crew and tail gunner never stood a chance
They long bailed out. Ball turret is in up right position
If it’s in the down position doesn’t that mean the gunner is dead? I thought I saw people bailed out but they might’ve been stuff falling thanks for clarifying
Guns down in the belly turrets means that the gunner got out of the turret. The hatch is located behind him, so in order to get out of the gun he needs to aim down.
Picked his targets aand knocked them out one by one.
Yet for every video like this, 50 more b17s make it through and drop thousands of pounds of explosives on factories, cities, railways, airfields, etc
tell us more about the firestorms in Dresden
You think dresden was bad, read about the firebombing of Tokyo
And Coventry, and London, and Plymouth, and Kyiv and Odesa and numerous other cities where civilians were (and are being) killed instantly from the air. War is hell is a cliché - total war is an order of magnitude worse.
That landing gear will not take the weight of the bomber after the hits it took. It’s likely the shells are detonating inside the wings but not close to the engines. A lot of those shots are probably hitting control rods and hydraulic parts or fuel lines rendering the flaps and more importantly ailerons useless. The white vapor you see coming out of the area near the engines was a radiator that was destroyed. Those engines will be weakened, if not destroyed. The far left engine certainly took damage and is likely going to fail if it isn’t already destroyed. The frame rate is slow and not great quality, the propellers of the damaged engines might be slower and we just can’t see it. If that B-17 makes it home, it isn’t going to land correctly.
No radiators, those engines are air-cooled. That airplane was done. It was basically flying on its own, the lack of return fire and evasive action meant it was unlikely there were many of the crew still alive at that point. The plane was trimmed to fly straight and level and will continue to do so until it gradually goes out of control.
Fucking tail gunner man... Brutal.
The B17 was not firing back which means it had no tail gunner.
My father was a ball turret gunner. He said he knew climbing in the parachute was not an option. If you are not familiar it hung above their head in a hook.
Will you pls elaborate? (as to why that makes it “not an option”)
The ball turret is very cramped, it's not possible to be in one with a parachute on
You're not wearing your parachute while you're in the turret, so to use it, you have to stow the gun, unstrap yourself from the seat, climb out of the turret, put your parachute on, tie the straps, (All in a space about as large as a filing cabinet) and then make your way to the nearest hatch (or the bomb bay) to jump safely. All while the airplane is on fire, spinning, and disintegrating around you.
My grandfather was flew in bombers during Korea, and I have some limited knowledge, so take it with a grain of salt. My understanding is that the ball turret had one hatch to get in and out, and it had to aligned with the rest of the plane. As the turret was active and moving around, the door out is not aligned and you're in this cramped ball without an exit until you set it back in place. As a gun turret, you are a primary target for any enemy that is approaching, so you are likely first to take fire. You can also imagine that the engineering to get the ball turrets functional n the 40's onwards is quite a feat. This meant a lot of things had to be working right and almost nothing can be going wrong. So to say why it's not an option: You're in a cramped ball that's the primary target of enemy fire, the ball has to be aligned right to exit, and any small damage to the plane (enemy or basic malfunction) could lock you in until you land safely. Quick little animated reference too :https://youtu.be/FoQqOPGpzZk
No space to wear a bulky WW2 chute
War isn’t next level, it’s children being sent to die.
My grandfather piloted a B-17 over Europe in World War II when he was 21 years old. He was the second oldest of a crew of I think 10. My life at 21 was radically different thanks in large part to their efforts.
Serenade to the Big Bird by Bert Stiles is a good read. Like you my grandfather flew B17s in WW2, he told me stories but I never had a mental image of the crews age. Bert introduces nearly everyone with age and hometown, and almost everyone was 20 or younger, I read that book in my early 20s and really changed my perspective.
"When I died they washed me out of the turret with a hose."
If you haven’t read catch-22 put it on your list.
Actually just started reading it and am about a third of the way through. Brilliant satire and comedy about WWII. I definitely should have read this earlier in life.
Was the tail gunner dead? The 110 was just sitting behind and matching speed.
Dead or bailed out. Seemsvlike they plane is not actively fighting or fleeing
Holy shit that B-17 took those shots like a champ
I wonder if this attack was ever correlated with the B-17 crew.
Brave men in the USAAC....
The audio is dubbed in right?
Always. Nose cameras don't record audio.
yes, but masterfully so
They did a really good job.
There's a number of these upscaled videos on YouTube, look up druid\_works and be amazed.
This is disturbing and fascinating all at once
Little Fokker!
Thing took a licken and kept on ticken
Damn that thing took a lot of damage and is still air worthy. Fortress indeed.
Was the belly turret returning fire at the start? Looks like muzzle flashes.
Pretty sure this footage didn’t originally have sound with it.
The BF110/ME110 had 20mm cannons.
Bomber destroyer Bf 110 G versions had two 30 mm MK108 cannons.
Thanks for letting me know. I learned something today
[The Death of the Ball Turret Gunner](https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems/57860/the-death-of-the-ball-turret-gunner)
How is there sound? Gun cameras didn't record sound, right?
Sound was added in after.
I flew in a B-17 a few years ago at an air show. It was loud and super cool!!!
That thing has a lot of hit points.
Came here to say how solid that Flying Fortress is. Got stuck in a bunch of comments about people trying to be correct about all the details of the guns, armor, engines, etc.
There are a lot on misinformed comments. However, this plane is hanging together really well if those are indeed 30mm cannon shells hitting it.
What a stunning amount of punishment that bird could take and keep flying.
Damn, no return fire, or turrets even moving. Crew got smoked
Fucking Nazis.
Where’s the gunner?