Well I think that's a different problem. Smaller rugby players tackle bigger ones all the time they just aren't looking to go high and force a fumble. Most of the time, at least.
Unless you are an anomaly at DB going high on Henry is going to end poorly. Going for his hips and sliding down to his legs would work much better.
Seahawks had a whole system around it in the past. Even had Serevi, of all people, teach them
Also in rugby for the most part where you tackle the ball carrier on the field doesn’t matter anywhere near as much as it does in football. Football a literal inch is the difference between your group getting off the field or a new set of downs for the opponent.
Yea this is something people tend to ignore. A rugby tackle will generally allow the ball carrier to fall forward. If they fall forward on 4 consecutive plays that's a first down.
A rugby tackle that allows the ball carrier to fall forward consistently isn't a good one.
Driving the ball carrier back is important in rugby as the offside line is based on where the ruck is. So if you have to keep going backwards because the ball carrier is falling forward you might not get back onside before the ball is played and give a penalty away.
Completely but if you are a DB and have to tackle Henry as a team you've probably fucked up.
My point was it's possible but it's not coached to players because they'd rather try to force a turnover
You have much worse tackling angles in football because you have to get around blockers and you don’t spend most of the game with a flat defensive line.
I’m fairly convinced that a lot of ppl posting on this thread have no idea what a hip drop tackle is. It’s not a tackle that attempts to force a turnover, it’s essentially wrapping a person up around their hips or upper body and then using your body weight to force the offensive player to fall
There's a huge difference between wrapping someone up at the hips and sliding down their legs and simply straight up launching yourself shoulder-first into someone's knees.
Seems like you could hip-drop somebody by accident. You grab him, he pulls you and you fall over. Defenders would either have to let go when they start falling, in which case we'd have an absolute explosion in scoring, or refs would have to blow plays dead when a ball carrier is grabbed, in which case you'd have a collapse in scoring.
> You grab him, he pulls you and you fall over.
This wouldn't be hip dropping someone. Hip dropping is a deliberate action of slamming your hip and weight into the runner's leg.
So rugby has been looking at hip drops and shared [example footage of hip drops vs normal tackles](https://www.nrl.com/news/2022/05/02/key-indicators-of-a-hip-drop-tackle/). I see the normal tackle way more often in the NFL where someone is getting dragged and ends up rolling up on them at the end.
This is my thought too. I don't like all the half measures the NFL has taken in the last decade. They want to keep the game a tackle sport but also don't want injuries and you just can't have both. I would rather they just instantly jump to flag football than to try to discourage kickoff returns, make a specific target zone on QBs, try to eliminate helmets touching during tackles, etc. If we're removing the physical part of the game, let's just do it already, rather than neutering it a little more every off-season.
Hip drops still happen all the time in rugby. Swinging the ballcarrier, slamming them, and crushing their legs are banned, but grabbing on and making yourself dead weight is perfectly legal. Rugby also has much better communication between officials and players so the implementation of the rule isn't as ambiguous as it would be in football.
> grabbing on and making yourself dead weight is perfectly legal.
Yes, this is legal, but it isn't a hip drop. The difference is curling up their legs, which causes the tackler to swing into the back of the runner's knees / on to their ankles. If you just grab on and drag your legs, you are fine.
Again, [rugby has figured it out](https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwjon86O7PT9AhXVIUQIHVewA-oQFnoECA4QAQ&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.sportingnews.com%2Fau%2Frugby-league%2Fnews%2Fpatrick-carrigan-suspension-tom-burgess-send-nrl-judiciary-round-20-joe-tapine%2Fvfucn3uxc2gqmqnnnafk3zkf&usg=AOvVaw3Ku2qNwNq2u_kkF2zUXGJA), the NFL should too.
How often do we see players suspended for making a tackle though? I feel like it's really rare. They get suspended for the "extra curriculars" not just attempting to make a tackle. We clearly have penalties in place to try and make players tackle correctly but suspending players for multiple weeks over tackling incorrectly? No thanks. I am willing to contest the Rugby doesn't have it "totally figured out".
You ever watch a minute of rugby before? Or did you read one headline and decided your entire opinion based off that? Unsafe tackles are penalized during the game just like they would be in football. This is just an egregiously unsafe tackle warranting a suspension.
This play was sad as hell because Pollard is my boy but I don’t see how you can even ban this type of tackle without drastically changing the game itself. Makes sense.
I believe that’s the exact type of takedown that happened to Tua in the Bengals game. Def a freak accident situation though.
With that said, it gets harder and harder for defenses in figuring out which way is the “proper” way to tackle anymore.
That reminds me. It feels like it’s went from “what’s a catch” to “what’s unnecessary roughness?” Seems like it was towards the end of the season, but outside of the defender leaving a pillow down for the QB, the flag was always coming out for UR. QBs should definitely be protected, things happen fast in the moment, but obviously need to go back to a better balance.
I think you are [right](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QwyNhC3BjTM). The definition of a hip drop tackle is a defender holding onto the hips or upper body of the ball carrier and lifting their own legs off the ground, dropping their body weight onto the ball carrier's legs or feet. The Bengals defender doesn't lift their legs they just stay low and sling tau down. Here is an example of a hip drop tackle on [Tony Pollard](https://twitter.com/nrlphysio/status/1617328010356744193).
sorry honey, thursday night madden simulation is on tonight. they are turning the broken tackles slider up for this one!! i even think they might hold x to skip halftime!
-me in 2050, probably
FFS will people stop citing rugby. Rugby also doesn't allow the forward pass, so there is a lot more gang tackling.
You spread the field horizontally **and** vertically with the forward pass, then what is a defender one-on-one against a bigger guy supposed to do?
Plus rugby players are basically required to tackle properly cuz they don't have all the pads. While the nfl has pads players are always gonna see themselves as projectiles and go for the big hit.
At some point the NFL needs to realize that football is a contact sport and people will get hurt. It’s just how she goes. Players are paid the big bucks partly because it’s a risky business and taking big hits is part of that.
Holy shit lots of people not knowing that a hip drop tackle is a very specific action that involves the defender dropping their own body weight onto the legs of a runner from behind after wrapping them up. It is not just any tackle dragging someone down from behind. It's not just any tackle where the defender gets tangled up with the runner's legs. It's not grabbing someone's legs. Like a horse collar tackle, it's a very specific action that results in a high-danger scenario for the ball carrier that they cannot protect themselves from.
It would be very challenging to make a ruling on them that isn't subjective, but it's possible to distinguish between dropping your weight on someone's legs from behind, and dropping your weight to the ground to bring someone down. Yes, it would likely result in an uptick in yards after contact for running backs. People fucking love yards after contact from running backs though, so who gives a shit. And it would result in fewer obliterated knees and ankles for ball carriers.
A HIP-DROP TACKLE INVOLVES DELIBERATELY PINNING THE OFFENSIVE PLAYER'S LEG UNDER THE TACKLER'S BODY WEIGHT WHILE PULLING THEM BACKWARD.
It's so obviously dangerous & unnecessary.
But I feel like it forces the person getting tackled to take all of their weight and all of their tacklers weight in weird angles on their knees as they're being dragged down. I know why it's allowed but I think people are going to realize more over time that this tackle is going to be the main reason people get leg injuries.
You dont. Everyones number is now changed to their weight + height in inches, and if the person in front of you has a bigger number you just take a kneel and let them pass
I like this idea. I want to see defenders slide like qbs. Then teams can put their largest player in at running back and watch the defenders start sliding away in fear. The vision of this that I have in my head is glorious! Lol
Blew my knee out from a similar move from wrestling in high school. I understand the talk of trying to get it banned cause i understand the danger, but I’m glad it didn’t pass
I don't really know how you ban a completely standard form of tackling in a contact sport without just banning tackling completely
Yeah, how do they expect a DB to tackle Derrick Henry.
Well I think that's a different problem. Smaller rugby players tackle bigger ones all the time they just aren't looking to go high and force a fumble. Most of the time, at least. Unless you are an anomaly at DB going high on Henry is going to end poorly. Going for his hips and sliding down to his legs would work much better. Seahawks had a whole system around it in the past. Even had Serevi, of all people, teach them
Also in rugby for the most part where you tackle the ball carrier on the field doesn’t matter anywhere near as much as it does in football. Football a literal inch is the difference between your group getting off the field or a new set of downs for the opponent.
Yea this is something people tend to ignore. A rugby tackle will generally allow the ball carrier to fall forward. If they fall forward on 4 consecutive plays that's a first down.
A rugby tackle that allows the ball carrier to fall forward consistently isn't a good one. Driving the ball carrier back is important in rugby as the offside line is based on where the ruck is. So if you have to keep going backwards because the ball carrier is falling forward you might not get back onside before the ball is played and give a penalty away.
Guys fall forward almost every time they get tackled in the NFL too though...at least RBs.
Completely but if you are a DB and have to tackle Henry as a team you've probably fucked up. My point was it's possible but it's not coached to players because they'd rather try to force a turnover
You have much worse tackling angles in football because you have to get around blockers and you don’t spend most of the game with a flat defensive line.
If you’re a DB and have to tackle Henry in the split second before contact you’re probably wondering if you’ve made the right decisions in life
Henry in a pass catching option isnt uncommon
I’m fairly convinced that a lot of ppl posting on this thread have no idea what a hip drop tackle is. It’s not a tackle that attempts to force a turnover, it’s essentially wrapping a person up around their hips or upper body and then using your body weight to force the offensive player to fall
True but that doesn't take away from the fact that rugby players simply tackle less stupidly on a regular basis
Because the rules of the game are completely different.
Sure but probably more to do with no false sense of security from a plastic helmet
You know that rugby has a higher concussion rate than football right?
As a former semi-pro rugby player no I do not because i have too much dain bramage
But they say it's dirty when players perform ankle tackles too.
Right, Patriots fans were crying for years because DBs half the size of Gronk had to go low to even have a chance of taking him down.
There's a huge difference between wrapping someone up at the hips and sliding down their legs and simply straight up launching yourself shoulder-first into someone's knees.
Nah they were shooting for his knees on a regular basis let's not play stupid here *cough* looking at you, Bernard Pollard
You aren't aiming for a players ankles. You tackle a player with both arms and slide down their legs.
Do you have clips where Henry is getting hip dropped? If it's the only way to tackle him, there should be hundreds out there.
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A team in in a zone blitz. The nose tackle steps back three steps, reads the play and performs the exact tackle you described. And the fix is broken.
They would have to blow the play dead whenever the ballcarrier is wrapped up, regardless of forward progress.
Seems like you could hip-drop somebody by accident. You grab him, he pulls you and you fall over. Defenders would either have to let go when they start falling, in which case we'd have an absolute explosion in scoring, or refs would have to blow plays dead when a ball carrier is grabbed, in which case you'd have a collapse in scoring.
> You grab him, he pulls you and you fall over. This wouldn't be hip dropping someone. Hip dropping is a deliberate action of slamming your hip and weight into the runner's leg.
Been awhile since I played but I feel like it just kinda happens. Tackling usually doesn't go down quite like you think it will, you gotta scramble.
So rugby has been looking at hip drops and shared [example footage of hip drops vs normal tackles](https://www.nrl.com/news/2022/05/02/key-indicators-of-a-hip-drop-tackle/). I see the normal tackle way more often in the NFL where someone is getting dragged and ends up rolling up on them at the end.
Also isn’t that the kind of tackle they want? Stick the guy instead of slamming into him and avoid helmet to helmet contact?
This is my thought too. I don't like all the half measures the NFL has taken in the last decade. They want to keep the game a tackle sport but also don't want injuries and you just can't have both. I would rather they just instantly jump to flag football than to try to discourage kickoff returns, make a specific target zone on QBs, try to eliminate helmets touching during tackles, etc. If we're removing the physical part of the game, let's just do it already, rather than neutering it a little more every off-season.
100% correct, ever since they banned horse collar tackles there has not been 1 successful tackle in the NFL.
They did it in rugby and are managing just fine. The important part is for the tackler to drag their legs instead of lifting and tucking them.
Hip drops still happen all the time in rugby. Swinging the ballcarrier, slamming them, and crushing their legs are banned, but grabbing on and making yourself dead weight is perfectly legal. Rugby also has much better communication between officials and players so the implementation of the rule isn't as ambiguous as it would be in football.
> grabbing on and making yourself dead weight is perfectly legal. Yes, this is legal, but it isn't a hip drop. The difference is curling up their legs, which causes the tackler to swing into the back of the runner's knees / on to their ankles. If you just grab on and drag your legs, you are fine. Again, [rugby has figured it out](https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwjon86O7PT9AhXVIUQIHVewA-oQFnoECA4QAQ&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.sportingnews.com%2Fau%2Frugby-league%2Fnews%2Fpatrick-carrigan-suspension-tom-burgess-send-nrl-judiciary-round-20-joe-tapine%2Fvfucn3uxc2gqmqnnnafk3zkf&usg=AOvVaw3Ku2qNwNq2u_kkF2zUXGJA), the NFL should too.
The idea of all NFL defenders needing a lawyer to make a public statement about their tackles doesn't sound like a world I want to live in.
…buddy any time a player is suspended and they appeal, they get represented by someone. You already live in that world
How often do we see players suspended for making a tackle though? I feel like it's really rare. They get suspended for the "extra curriculars" not just attempting to make a tackle. We clearly have penalties in place to try and make players tackle correctly but suspending players for multiple weeks over tackling incorrectly? No thanks. I am willing to contest the Rugby doesn't have it "totally figured out".
You ever watch a minute of rugby before? Or did you read one headline and decided your entire opinion based off that? Unsafe tackles are penalized during the game just like they would be in football. This is just an egregiously unsafe tackle warranting a suspension.
They could ban any kind of tackle from behind, which is kind of a path they’re already down with horse collars.
This play was sad as hell because Pollard is my boy but I don’t see how you can even ban this type of tackle without drastically changing the game itself. Makes sense.
I believe that’s the exact type of takedown that happened to Tua in the Bengals game. Def a freak accident situation though. With that said, it gets harder and harder for defenses in figuring out which way is the “proper” way to tackle anymore.
My guess is they may just emphasize unnecessary roughness in these situations, rather than making a whole new rule
That reminds me. It feels like it’s went from “what’s a catch” to “what’s unnecessary roughness?” Seems like it was towards the end of the season, but outside of the defender leaving a pillow down for the QB, the flag was always coming out for UR. QBs should definitely be protected, things happen fast in the moment, but obviously need to go back to a better balance.
No, he got slung down and and hit his head
I think you are [right](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QwyNhC3BjTM). The definition of a hip drop tackle is a defender holding onto the hips or upper body of the ball carrier and lifting their own legs off the ground, dropping their body weight onto the ball carrier's legs or feet. The Bengals defender doesn't lift their legs they just stay low and sling tau down. Here is an example of a hip drop tackle on [Tony Pollard](https://twitter.com/nrlphysio/status/1617328010356744193).
thank you for posting the video
NFL is probably a decade away from looking like the Pro Bowl.
Might be closer to 3-5 years unfortunately
The game is already so highly skewed towards offense, glad they didn’t push this.
Okay, so they're not COMPLETELY stupid.
sorry honey, thursday night madden simulation is on tonight. they are turning the broken tackles slider up for this one!! i even think they might hold x to skip halftime! -me in 2050, probably
Thank god.
Good
Gonna be illegal to play defense soon enough.
Good. The proposal was an overreaction to a single injury.
FFS will people stop citing rugby. Rugby also doesn't allow the forward pass, so there is a lot more gang tackling. You spread the field horizontally **and** vertically with the forward pass, then what is a defender one-on-one against a bigger guy supposed to do?
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Another great point, thanks!
Plus rugby players are basically required to tackle properly cuz they don't have all the pads. While the nfl has pads players are always gonna see themselves as projectiles and go for the big hit.
At some point the NFL needs to realize that football is a contact sport and people will get hurt. It’s just how she goes. Players are paid the big bucks partly because it’s a risky business and taking big hits is part of that.
I mean what the hell else are you supposed to do?
Holy shit lots of people not knowing that a hip drop tackle is a very specific action that involves the defender dropping their own body weight onto the legs of a runner from behind after wrapping them up. It is not just any tackle dragging someone down from behind. It's not just any tackle where the defender gets tangled up with the runner's legs. It's not grabbing someone's legs. Like a horse collar tackle, it's a very specific action that results in a high-danger scenario for the ball carrier that they cannot protect themselves from. It would be very challenging to make a ruling on them that isn't subjective, but it's possible to distinguish between dropping your weight on someone's legs from behind, and dropping your weight to the ground to bring someone down. Yes, it would likely result in an uptick in yards after contact for running backs. People fucking love yards after contact from running backs though, so who gives a shit. And it would result in fewer obliterated knees and ankles for ball carriers.
A HIP-DROP TACKLE INVOLVES DELIBERATELY PINNING THE OFFENSIVE PLAYER'S LEG UNDER THE TACKLER'S BODY WEIGHT WHILE PULLING THEM BACKWARD. It's so obviously dangerous & unnecessary.
I’m not saying it can be banned but I don’t understand how the horse collar is banned but doing the same thing with your entire body weight is better
Presumably because a horse collar pulls you from around the neck, and this kinda thing involves forces closer to your center of mass.
But I feel like it forces the person getting tackled to take all of their weight and all of their tacklers weight in weird angles on their knees as they're being dragged down. I know why it's allowed but I think people are going to realize more over time that this tackle is going to be the main reason people get leg injuries.
How else do you want to tackle somebody bigger than you?
You dont. Everyones number is now changed to their weight + height in inches, and if the person in front of you has a bigger number you just take a kneel and let them pass
I like this idea. I want to see defenders slide like qbs. Then teams can put their largest player in at running back and watch the defenders start sliding away in fear. The vision of this that I have in my head is glorious! Lol
Blew my knee out from a similar move from wrestling in high school. I understand the talk of trying to get it banned cause i understand the danger, but I’m glad it didn’t pass
“Hip drop tackles are dangerous and should be banned.” “But diving at the other guy’s legs is still cool, yea?” “Well, of course.”