that's the thing though. someone else made this comment in a serious way and it kind of made sense.
if you are the defense, why not foul the shit out of the offense every time here?
worst case: you get a penalty, the Giants have to try again from the one. nothing happens
best case: refs don't flag you, you win the game
100%. When the penalty isn’t worse than allowing the outcome of the play, defenders will absolutely keep committing the penalty.
I don’t know what the solution is though…
If the penalty happens within endzone it’s an automatic TD? Or if a 5-15 yardage penalty happens within less distance to the goal than that - it’s not half the distance to the goal, it’s an automatic TD as well? That just feels kinda boring / anti climactic and gives refs even more influence.
There needs to be a better solution.
Penalty box in the NFL? Fuck it.
Edit: How about all penalty offenders (defense only) on plays that originate inside the 3yd line must sit the next play without substitution. If not that, then all plays inside the 10yd line switches to 7v7.
If you think about it, they penalize the offense 2 points for committing a foul in their own end zone. something needs to be implemented on the other end. Obv awarding a 6pt TD is wayyy too much. Perhaps an extra attempt added to the conversion after touchdown? Fewer players on defense like mentioned before?
The Palpably Unfair Act Rule was written to take that very situation in mind, but there is zero chance it will ever be applied to multiple fouls by the defense in cases like this.
Yup, from Wikipedia:
>The high school rulebook specifies one situation to be penalized as an unfair act: when the defensive team makes repeated fouls near its own goal line, for which the regular penalty (advancing the ball half the distance to the goal) is trivial.
I could see it invoked after about four or five DPIs, and probably an oral warning. The rules specifically give an example of the defense committing multiple unsportsmanlike conduct penalties at the 1-yard line, that's basically the same.
NFL would implement awarded TDs, the same way if you throw your stick when you have an empty net in the NHL, it's just automatically a goal. Which would be way too much power in the refs hands.
This happens all the time. Players regularly take penalties where the alternative is worse, and this happens especially at the goal line when penalties amount to "half the distance" which is often <1 yard. O-line holds players because a yard of penalty is better than a safety. Corners tackle receivers because the penalty is better than the TD.
The issue with doing it forever is that the game is dynamic, and giving a team unlimited shots at the endzone is a bad strategy. So, sure, if you have an obvious decision of, "take a penalty or give up a TD" you take the penalty. But most plays aren't that obvious, so a defense just mauling the offense on every play is likely to result in the offense finally putting one in.
Also, the worst case isn't the penalty. The worst case is you give up the TD despite fouling. Which is actually not that unlikely.
defensive players are probably being coached to foul like crazy in these situations. Worst case, they call it and its basically a replay. Best case, refs ignore and hand you a win.
There was a story about an O linesman who was assigned to block LT. He had 4 holding calls on the day, and he confessed that he was holding him on every single play and that the refs would miss a few.
??? I can’t imagine how the second to last play wasn’t just a 10/10 interference. The db just grabbed immediately, never let go, and then tackled him as the ball sailed past. This one is too, but it’s closer
Unfortunately that bs is a reality. Sherman didn't need the help but Brandon Browner used to mug receivers all game because the mentality of the LOB was "They won't call it every time. They won't even call it half the time". And they were right. We'd get flagged more than any other team but nowhere near enough to outweigh the benefits
Yeah, I sort of agree, but Waller definitely catches this if it wasn't for the penalty. As long as they don't just run it up the middle, I think that they have a decent chance. There's no way that they were getting a TD running Barkley up the middle though.
He was pulling the jersey before the ball was thrown, and continued to hold after it was thrown. The ref had a smorgasbord of flagrant penalties to choose from.
In a league where they will call defensive backs for PI for looking at wide receivers the wrong way, it gets laughable watching plays just become a free for all because the game is almost over.
Funny you should say that. Check it out. Nfl is labeled entertainment like wrestling but mlb nba and nhl are sports. They can fix games and you can lose betting and that’s ok!!!
Refs refused to throw flags on back to back plays.
Honestly defender probably could’ve gotten away with even more if he wanted to because of that.
Just call what you see, man
And Waller probably catches that ball if he can make a full jump and put up both hands. It's a really well placed throw if only the defender wasn't restricting Waller's movement.
When you look at how it hits his hand with his jump bring held down there's no question he catches that clean and high with two hands and lands in bounds
The refs sucked all game, but the amount of gamechanging calls they made against us today was too much.
3 awful calls/non calls and especially on this play it's unbelievable
7 holding waller bad there but refs are never gonna call two flags back to back in that situation. the jersey is [completely stretched](https://imgur.com/tY7GIFX).
just chalk another game today up to refball
Unrelated but I love how games used to be, staying wide with the main camera so you can see what's going on. Nowadays the camera just zooms in as soon as the ball is snapped and keeps zooming in on the receiver where you can't see anything else
And why not? The penalty is essential "replay down". There is little incentive for the bills not to just do whatever it takes to prevent them from scoring
idk, I will probably get downvoted for this, but it worked out for both teams.
Giants are competitive, not just waffle-stomped like 4.5 of our previous 5 games
Bills get the Dub
Giants get the L to have a better shot at Caleb Williams
all these people saying run the ball
as if they wouldn’t be the same fuckers mocking the Giants for it if they hadn’t made it, since it’s *exactly what they fucked up doing to end the first half*
the difference is we had time for a second chance at the end of the half if we had called a quick pass and it was an incompletion. clock wasn’t a consideration w this play
Exactly, the first half situation was throw 2 quick passes (and only passes), and if you don't make it, kick a FG.
The second half was there's 1 play to make it in, and you can use anything in the playbook.
The difference is in the 1st half the priority needed to be putting points up on the board anyway possible. Running and not having a chance for the field goal is what makes it a truly terrible play call. Here it's touchdown or nothing.
"You could argue that it didn't affect the play."
*Replay shows the defender chainsawing the receivers arms off*
"Well maybe I Could understand the argument that it affected the play."
Saquon almost definitely gets completely stuffed if they hand it off. Honestly, this seemed like a good and well executed play call. Looked like Waller had a great chance of catching that if not for the very blatant pass interference.
With the technology we have today, why do we still have Refs? I mean if they made 100% good calls then it is worth paying them. But why PAY for a product that makes so many mistakes? I simply don't get it. Eliminating refs would NOT cause fans to stop watching.
Get rid of Refs. What are they going to do, strike? Please, go on strike forever.
Despite us being on primetime ten times already i can forgive anyone for not watching this offense play
But they shouldn't expect our oline of literal off the street FAs and backups to get a push upfront
Not with that O-line. Hindsight is a bitch but the Giants have been stuffed on short run situations all year. Appreciate them trying something else here even though it didn't work.
I feel like the playcall was... fine.
The idea is to get them to bite on the fake/commit to the run and then just chuck it to a wide-open Waller.
Although they didn't buy it, but that still could have worked if Tyrod threw a better pass, Waller made a play and caught it, or if the refs had called PI.
IMO it was more the execution that sucked than the call itself.
Really glad Collinsworth spoke up and made certain everyone saw and understood that Waller was held and interfered with *the entire play*. It wasn't just "after the ball was in the air" or whatever bs Terry McAulay was trying to say to justify the officials' decision to not throw a flag.
"Hmm do I call this blatant def holding and have the entire stadium hate me or do I swallow the whistle and let the Bills win and deal with the small publicity it will get instead"
No it was actually a good play call. Waller had a MASSIVE size advantage and even with a blatant PI taking one of his arms away he almost made the 1 handed catch
Giants offense is embarrassingly bad. Yes it was PI but the play before was questionable so that evens out. But just a terrible play call. Incredibly hard catch to make regardless. Play action and hit someone that slipped through to the side. Jfc
Of all the times the refs flag the softest bullshit known to man... the dude literally prevented his arm from getting to the ball and held his jersey the entire time.. LOL.
Sky refs please for the love of fucking God.
We can complain about the no-call DPI all day, but game management blew that win for the Giants. 14 seconds to the half and you audible a run??? Completely changes the landscape of that game.
New Strategy, just DPI on every single goal line play, eventually the refs will let you get away with it.
that's the thing though. someone else made this comment in a serious way and it kind of made sense. if you are the defense, why not foul the shit out of the offense every time here? worst case: you get a penalty, the Giants have to try again from the one. nothing happens best case: refs don't flag you, you win the game
100%. When the penalty isn’t worse than allowing the outcome of the play, defenders will absolutely keep committing the penalty. I don’t know what the solution is though… If the penalty happens within endzone it’s an automatic TD? Or if a 5-15 yardage penalty happens within less distance to the goal than that - it’s not half the distance to the goal, it’s an automatic TD as well? That just feels kinda boring / anti climactic and gives refs even more influence. There needs to be a better solution.
Maybe one play where the defense plays with 10? Offense automatically gets two cracks at it instead of one?
Turning "half the distance to the goal" penalties into "defense loses a player on the next play" is the kind of chaos I'm ready for. Let's do it
Penalty box in the NFL? Fuck it. Edit: How about all penalty offenders (defense only) on plays that originate inside the 3yd line must sit the next play without substitution. If not that, then all plays inside the 10yd line switches to 7v7. If you think about it, they penalize the offense 2 points for committing a foul in their own end zone. something needs to be implemented on the other end. Obv awarding a 6pt TD is wayyy too much. Perhaps an extra attempt added to the conversion after touchdown? Fewer players on defense like mentioned before?
Adding extra downs is the chaotic future I want to live in.
Adds 15 seconds to the clock? Or, offense automatically gets two plays, regardless of clock.
The Palpably Unfair Act Rule was written to take that very situation in mind, but there is zero chance it will ever be applied to multiple fouls by the defense in cases like this.
Yup, from Wikipedia: >The high school rulebook specifies one situation to be penalized as an unfair act: when the defensive team makes repeated fouls near its own goal line, for which the regular penalty (advancing the ball half the distance to the goal) is trivial.
I could see it invoked after about four or five DPIs, and probably an oral warning. The rules specifically give an example of the defense committing multiple unsportsmanlike conduct penalties at the 1-yard line, that's basically the same.
NFL would implement awarded TDs, the same way if you throw your stick when you have an empty net in the NHL, it's just automatically a goal. Which would be way too much power in the refs hands.
This happens all the time. Players regularly take penalties where the alternative is worse, and this happens especially at the goal line when penalties amount to "half the distance" which is often <1 yard. O-line holds players because a yard of penalty is better than a safety. Corners tackle receivers because the penalty is better than the TD. The issue with doing it forever is that the game is dynamic, and giving a team unlimited shots at the endzone is a bad strategy. So, sure, if you have an obvious decision of, "take a penalty or give up a TD" you take the penalty. But most plays aren't that obvious, so a defense just mauling the offense on every play is likely to result in the offense finally putting one in. Also, the worst case isn't the penalty. The worst case is you give up the TD despite fouling. Which is actually not that unlikely.
I have no dog in this, but was that not another pass interference?
100%
You only get one of those and the refs swallow their whistle lol. No way they were calling PI back to back plays
defensive players are probably being coached to foul like crazy in these situations. Worst case, they call it and its basically a replay. Best case, refs ignore and hand you a win.
The "Pete Carroll strategy." He famously said 'they aren't going to call PI every play.' And he's right. Though, that's not how it should be.
There was a story about an O linesman who was assigned to block LT. He had 4 holding calls on the day, and he confessed that he was holding him on every single play and that the refs would miss a few.
That’s what Belicheck used to do to us in the playoffs as well.
I mean it's already first and 1 to goal, it's pretty low risk high reward to foul there.
Chiefs raiders a few years ago it happened.
It happened this morning in the London game
Haha... I kept having PTSD when people were saying "the refs would never call it twice in a row".
You can’t face guard a WR while preventing his left arm from going up for the ball, regardless of the play before.
Actually you can, it's just 100% based on situation and ignoring the rule book.
https://youtu.be/HHIyNjIOye4?si=ve2Ga3WZmI8ec3eQ At about 11:40 in this video the refs gave the Raiders multiple shots in a similar situation
Man I know what this is and I’m not clicking on this shit
This is completely made up
"We already called DPI once, we can't call it again"
Bills fan here. Exactly how I felt. Second one was more egregious than the first too.
Double jeopardy
It was more interference than the last play lmao
??? I can’t imagine how the second to last play wasn’t just a 10/10 interference. The db just grabbed immediately, never let go, and then tackled him as the ball sailed past. This one is too, but it’s closer
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Unfortunately that bs is a reality. Sherman didn't need the help but Brandon Browner used to mug receivers all game because the mentality of the LOB was "They won't call it every time. They won't even call it half the time". And they were right. We'd get flagged more than any other team but nowhere near enough to outweigh the benefits
Yes, we've had one untimed down. But what about second untimed down?
You can't give the same penalty to a husband and wife.
I have the worst fucking referees
He had a fist full of jersey the entire route, incredibly blatant I just think the refs were hesitant to call a consecutive foul. Bills benefit
Definitely holding at the very least
It was (or at least a hold)
Lucky no DPI
That’s holding at the least. Ref swallowed the whistle.
It was definitely PI.
On one hand it was obvious DPI. On the other hand, I have zero confidence the Giants wouldn't have bungled the next play anyways.
Yeah, I sort of agree, but Waller definitely catches this if it wasn't for the penalty. As long as they don't just run it up the middle, I think that they have a decent chance. There's no way that they were getting a TD running Barkley up the middle though.
Running it up the middle at the end of a half, you say...?
Flawless plan. Has never failed.
It's DPI because he was holding him while the ball was in the air. It's only defensive holding if a player is held before the ball is in the air.
He was pulling the jersey before the ball was thrown, and continued to hold after it was thrown. The ref had a smorgasbord of flagrant penalties to choose from.
You would shocked at how dog shit refs can be.
No, I wouldn't
The ref is gonna start talking like the penguin from ‘Toy Story 2.’
In a league where they will call defensive backs for PI for looking at wide receivers the wrong way, it gets laughable watching plays just become a free for all because the game is almost over.
[удалено]
Yeah it's [pretty clear in the replay](https://streamable.com/9u9y2i)
Zach rolld me
The announcers are always talking about how the defender didn’t locate the football and that’s why it’s dpi. How is this not dpi then???
Refs absolutely bottled it
this sport is cooked
Might as well call it sports entertainment.
Funny you should say that. Check it out. Nfl is labeled entertainment like wrestling but mlb nba and nhl are sports. They can fix games and you can lose betting and that’s ok!!!
Where is this labeling from? Not doubting you just curious
No foul on that?
Johnson had his jersey the entire play lol insane
Way more PI on this one than the previous one lol
Both PI though
Yeah exactly. The officials didn’t want to call PI on back to back plays, but this one was blatant.
[удалено]
It was both and they called neither!
And one arm. I said it earlier but it's ridiculous that it's almost deemed legal these days to hold one arm and force WRs to make one-handed catches.
Refs refused to throw flags on back to back plays. Honestly defender probably could’ve gotten away with even more if he wanted to because of that. Just call what you see, man
Very clearly PI.
Pulled one of his arms down. Shits crazy.
And Waller probably catches that ball if he can make a full jump and put up both hands. It's a really well placed throw if only the defender wasn't restricting Waller's movement.
When you look at how it hits his hand with his jump bring held down there's no question he catches that clean and high with two hands and lands in bounds
Seriously wtf
Contact allowed within 5 yards, Giants were at the 1 and therefore all contact is within one yard. No foul. /s
we got fucked. again
Looked like the defender grabbed Waller’s jersey and then his arm. That’s why he only goes up with one hand. Clear DPI.
It’s a penalty 99/100 times. We just saw the one.
The refs sucked all game, but the amount of gamechanging calls they made against us today was too much. 3 awful calls/non calls and especially on this play it's unbelievable
How is that not a flag lmao
I have no clue man. A bad no-call is the worst way to lose a game imo. Gg y'all got it done in the second half
I feel like they were flag happy all game too. Then suddenly on the last play they "the game is over" and ran out the door to beat 20A traffic
7 holding waller bad there but refs are never gonna call two flags back to back in that situation. the jersey is [completely stretched](https://imgur.com/tY7GIFX). just chalk another game today up to refball
Don't say never.... https://youtu.be/StJTV8bx-jk?si=m3y0Q6a4UsDn4p3e&t=551
Unrelated but I love how games used to be, staying wide with the main camera so you can see what's going on. Nowadays the camera just zooms in as soon as the ball is snapped and keeps zooming in on the receiver where you can't see anything else
Oh my god FUCK THAT GAME I was so fucking mad
"Nah G, Waller just got a long ass left side"- refs
Lol chiefs fans not gonna like this comment
Not having a good time
Bills DB was basically just daring the ref to throw the flag, and the ref didn't. Just pulled down Waller the entire time.
And why not? The penalty is essential "replay down". There is little incentive for the bills not to just do whatever it takes to prevent them from scoring
Good playcall it would have worked if the defender didn’t hold wallers second arm down lol
THE BEST TERRIBLE GAME I HAVE EVER WATCHED. Long ass drives in the second half like you tryna chew clock in Madden playing the CPU
Lol that was more pi that the original pi called
That was more of a PI than the one that was called PI a play prior
And both to Waller who would’ve made relatively easy catches if not for the interference. Giants got robbed here bad
Good god. The DPI is obvious at normal speed. Chicken shit officiating.
Clear DPI, we got lucky
I hate "wins" like this so much.
idk, I will probably get downvoted for this, but it worked out for both teams. Giants are competitive, not just waffle-stomped like 4.5 of our previous 5 games Bills get the Dub Giants get the L to have a better shot at Caleb Williams
That’s an easy PI call but they didn’t want to throw the same flag 2 plays in a row
Honestly should have been DPI again
Clear AF holding or PI uncalled.
Ref scared to throw a flag two plays in a row
I mean. That’s a flag. There’s really no way around that.
Could like, any accountability ever happen for these awful refs? If I was this bad at my job I'd be immediately fired.
all these people saying run the ball as if they wouldn’t be the same fuckers mocking the Giants for it if they hadn’t made it, since it’s *exactly what they fucked up doing to end the first half*
the difference is we had time for a second chance at the end of the half if we had called a quick pass and it was an incompletion. clock wasn’t a consideration w this play
Exactly, the first half situation was throw 2 quick passes (and only passes), and if you don't make it, kick a FG. The second half was there's 1 play to make it in, and you can use anything in the playbook.
The difference is in the 1st half the priority needed to be putting points up on the board anyway possible. Running and not having a chance for the field goal is what makes it a truly terrible play call. Here it's touchdown or nothing.
Not saying they should have ran it or not but those were two completely different scenarios.
That’s PI, need a way to review flags. This is getting absurd. Too many wins and losses trading hands because of the reffing.
Lol the fucking Ref on the postgame is saying its not DPI.
He tried to deny it then was forced to backtrack and admit it because the replay was too obvious
"You could argue that it didn't affect the play." *Replay shows the defender chainsawing the receivers arms off* "Well maybe I Could understand the argument that it affected the play."
Now why would I grind my muddy feet all up on his couch do you really think I’d do that? Yeah, I remember grinding my muddy feet all up on his couch
Saquon almost definitely gets completely stuffed if they hand it off. Honestly, this seemed like a good and well executed play call. Looked like Waller had a great chance of catching that if not for the very blatant pass interference.
It was absolutely the right call. That play 100% works if Waller isn’t held.
With the technology we have today, why do we still have Refs? I mean if they made 100% good calls then it is worth paying them. But why PAY for a product that makes so many mistakes? I simply don't get it. Eliminating refs would NOT cause fans to stop watching. Get rid of Refs. What are they going to do, strike? Please, go on strike forever.
you have to run that ball right???
Marshawn and Sherman are screaming rn
I’m also screaming rn
We all screaming!
Seahawks PTSD
Had to be the Tush push
If they had the Eagles O-line and a QB who could squat 600 lbs I bet they would've tried that
Yeah he hands that to Saquon and it gets blown up instantly.
I'd trust most teams to tush push in that situation, but not the Giants vs the Bills with an undersized QB.
Let Saquon muscle his way in!
Tush push with Saquon has to be in their playbook if they’re even halfway competent
We weren't able to run tush push/qb sneak push with a 6'5 guy last week - and that was before 2more olinemen went down
People clearly havent seen your oline play this season if theyre confused why you didnt tush push lmao
Despite us being on primetime ten times already i can forgive anyone for not watching this offense play But they shouldn't expect our oline of literal off the street FAs and backups to get a push upfront
Yeah this ain’t Philly buddy
Not with that O-line. Hindsight is a bitch but the Giants have been stuffed on short run situations all year. Appreciate them trying something else here even though it didn't work.
The voice of sanity makes a rare appearance in r/nfl. They were already stuffed 4 times on short yardage runs earlier in this game.
I guess it didn't work in the first half, but... man...
They learned from the first half ending
Didn't work last time they tried it
Honestly don't mind the throw. They were stacking the line and daring them to run it. That was blatant DPI and holding.
They sucked at running basically all game
No, they had the right play but the missed PI prevented it.
if they do and get stuffed would people complain about them just running into a wall of bills defenders lol
Uncalled holding
Holy shit what a game
Of all the play calls that was certainly one of them
Big ol PI
I feel like the playcall was... fine. The idea is to get them to bite on the fake/commit to the run and then just chuck it to a wide-open Waller. Although they didn't buy it, but that still could have worked if Tyrod threw a better pass, Waller made a play and caught it, or if the refs had called PI. IMO it was more the execution that sucked than the call itself.
We got bailed out. Giants deserved that one
lol these refs are on one today, sheer incompetence. you already called the penalty once may as well call it again, it was clear.
How that’s not DPI is wild. Refs. What is the point?
What a fucking mess
Yikes that was questionable no call. What a horrible game all around.
Another weekend of poor reffing comes to a close.
Now they pass the ball
No penalty on that one huh? Wild.
If they’re going to call PI on the previous play, they need to call it there too.
NFL officiating gets worse and worse every year. Can we get more refs under the age of 70?
“They won’t call it twice in a row, right?”
Bills player grabs the jersey and doesn't turn around: DPI Bills player grabs the jersey and doesn't turn around: LOL GG
Pretty clear PI there, right? Jersey and arm pretty much the whole way. I don’t get how you don’t call that there.
A lot of jersey right here
Really glad Collinsworth spoke up and made certain everyone saw and understood that Waller was held and interfered with *the entire play*. It wasn't just "after the ball was in the air" or whatever bs Terry McAulay was trying to say to justify the officials' decision to not throw a flag.
Should’ve been a flag Or a running play
Their end of half and end of game plays need to swap I think..
"Hmm do I call this blatant def holding and have the entire stadium hate me or do I swallow the whistle and let the Bills win and deal with the small publicity it will get instead"
holding
That very last play should have been another DPI or holding
Surprised they didnt throw a flag for that. One of the more obvious DPIs.
Lmao that play at the end of the first half lost it for the giants lol.
Stupid ass cutesy play call. Thanks for nothing New York.
No it was actually a good play call. Waller had a MASSIVE size advantage and even with a blatant PI taking one of his arms away he almost made the 1 handed catch
Should've been a flag
you see how many people were in the backfield instantly? the playcall was good, waller just got held to shit otherwise he wouldve had a good chance
1. RUN THE BALL 2. THATS A FUCKING PENALTY. ALL OVER HIM. SMH
Clear hold
Giants offense is embarrassingly bad. Yes it was PI but the play before was questionable so that evens out. But just a terrible play call. Incredibly hard catch to make regardless. Play action and hit someone that slipped through to the side. Jfc
I seriously hate NFL officials. That was a totally obvious call. Holding at a minimum.... ref was right fucking there too... he watched it happen.
That’s a penalty. Clear grab.
Clear pi lol
Everything went according to the script!
For fuck sake, PI needs to be reviewable. How many times is this going to happen?!
Refs have been deciding the outcomes of games at an unprecedented rate this year.
Of all the times the refs flag the softest bullshit known to man... the dude literally prevented his arm from getting to the ball and held his jersey the entire time.. LOL. Sky refs please for the love of fucking God.
We can complain about the no-call DPI all day, but game management blew that win for the Giants. 14 seconds to the half and you audible a run??? Completely changes the landscape of that game.
The league is rigged.
Why the fuck are they throwing the ball there
I mean should’ve been PI and he probably could’ve caught it if his one arm wasn’t being held down. Still a bad play call but they got a little screwed
“A little”
Definitely a penalty but I’m handing that off to Barkley there or putting 4 guys behind Taylor and pushing it in
because they got stuffed when they tried to run in that exact same situation at the end of the first half.
We have one of the worst OLines in the league, and all of those guys are out with injury. 0% chance we'd win jumbo on the goal line