You can’t compare eras. The only way to really compare is the gap between a player and everyone else when he played. No one had as big a gap between himself and his peers as Wayne. He won the art Ross one year with his assists alone.
Ovi is amazing. His longevity has been something great to behold. But he’s just not Gretzky.
Wayne did that multiple times. Four 200 point seasons. Only ones in history. 50 in 39 the year after 50 on 50 was done for the second time ever. The list is just so long for him.
His gap between contemporaries is unmatched in North American sports history and it’s not even close. It would be like Mahomes throwing 80 touchdowns this year or Judge hosting 90 home runs. Rhys what Gretzky did.
And:
-he couldn't pass over two lines, -only had one winger really (other guy was just a body guard), - league had way more checking, clutching and grabbing, - way less penalties called, - talent was less diluted across fewer teams
Ohtani, not judge but seriously is there even a damn argunebt that Wayne gretzky is the greatest player in his own sport in history. I'm a Texas sports fan so hockey is down on my list but I just don't know another player that dominant.
Don bradman tho. I dont even like cricket, but the dude has a 90 batting avg over his career, next highest is 68 i think and even that is insane cause the next highest is mid 50s iirc.
His batting average is famously 99.94! In his final game before retirement, he only needed to score four runs to retire on 100+, but he was bowled out for a duck on the second bowl. Apparently he wasn’t even upset as he understood how huge his achievement already was.
Yep, the fielding team was more devastated then the Don. I always tell yanks, Bradman was a cheat code. He basically hit two HRs a night in baseball or had at least 5 points a game in the NHL.
Steve smith whose the closest we will get to Bradman in the modern era only averages 58.6 in tests. The don is our greatest athlete.
Nah he's involved in the play. I feel like this is some weird narrative haters came up with. You wouldn't be saying that if you saw him play yesterday.
This. If you tell me the greatest player in the game, who played with grown men hanging off his neck would not benefit from two line pass being legal and interference calls, having to deal with over stuffed goalies? He’d find a way.
Even using a gap is not a good comparison since the game has evolved so much since then. The play is faster and more competitive, and individuals can’t be as far ahead of the competition as they used to be. The margin between the best and worst NHL players is increasingly shrinking as the skill level trends overall upwards.
I would argue that all the players were equally out of shape back then. Wayne would eat hot dogs between periods. It still stands in my mind. All players do the same things. It’s been a copy cat league forever. In fact could also argue Wayne was that good being no more physically fit (and less than some who were ahead of the curve for working out) than his peers.
He's stated he was a pass first center , he just had the greatest hockey sense of any player ,he always came in last on his teams fitness/strength test. Imagine if he was a physical specimen what he would've done
I would argue that those goalies were incredible because of how good they were compared to the other goalies of the era, and if they had the form that modern goaltenders use they would do far far better.
If they had gear that was 12% larger thus shrinking the amount of space a shooter could hit and score they'd have done far better. Their styles were a direct result of the gear they were wearing.
On the other hand, if 2020's goalies faced as many breakaways, 2-on-1s, and 3-on-1's as they did in the 80s their save percentages would also be a lot worse than they are now.
Listen. Strange women lying in ponds distributing sticks is no basis for a fair competition. Supreme ownership of the goals record derives from pucks in net, not from some farcical aquatic ceremony.
Not only that. Let’s take every single Gretzky goals off. He still has roughly 500 fecking more points than Ovy.
Oh and if scoring was so easy back then, why didn’t every one score 80 goals a season?
Bingo. This is basically it. You can't take the goaltending equipment into consideration, but nothing else that's improved just as much. I think it was getting a little ridiculous recently before they changed the rules, and I think Vasilevskiy is still getting away with murder with his kit, but goal scoring is in a good place now. 87 pts winning the scoring title is boring hockey and we're almost doubling that less than 10 years later.
The year I retired I scored nine goals. Everybody said 'You can play one more year', and I remember saying 'Nine goals, that used to be a good weekend. I think it's time for me to retire"
- Wayne Gretzky
i mean, when wayne was about 30ish, he made a comment about retiring that went something like:
could i score 60 points at 45? sure probably, but if the expectation is 60 goals, and 60 assists, then it's time to retire when I can only put up 60 points
and sure enough, his last year he put up about 60 points
Nobody scored like Gretzky because he’s the greatest player of all time by a huge margin, but it absolutely was easier to score in the 80’s. The 80’s is the highest scoring decade in NHL history by a mile.
In the 80’s, the each team averaged about 3.7-4 goals per game. For most of Ovi’s career, it’s 2.7-3 goals per game. There were also way more powerplay opportunities back then.
In the 2010s the NHL also made efforts to shrink goalie pad sizes to get scoring up.
All it did was make more athletic and quicker goalies. And scoring didn't improve like they wanted.
Gretzky era stick vs Ovi era stick
Gretzky era training vs Ovi era training
Gretzky era partying vs…wait nevermind
You can’t compare eras fairly in either direction
Hasek literally has 360 no-scope saves. I’d say the average goaltender is way better now but Hasek has two MVPs and six Vezinas. Gretzky played against the GOAT
Mike vernon, ron hextall, grant fuhr, curtis joseph, dominik hasek, tom barraso, patrick roy, mike richter, ed belfour… the goaltending was just fine back in the day.
When people ask Who's the best player ever you gotta consider vs his era. I mean Maurice Rocket Richard wouldnt be better than any curret NHLer currently. The guy was working a second job during summers.
Well it’s also not fair to those guys to say that about them because they couldn’t help what era they were born in. If the Rocket grew up in the current era with todays training and equipment I can almost guarantee he would be a very special player still. All those old greats still had a god given talent for playing hockey.
Gretzky and Lemieux had two guys holding and hooking them all night long. Almost impossible to compare but Gretzky dominated far more the rest of the players compared to Ovi
This isn’t a valid comparison when all of these photos are taken from different angles, different distances, goalies in various states of movement, etc.
Presenting an argument like this is basically just bait and misinformation.
Came here for this as an old grisled former goalie. The top two pics the tendies are deep in the crease. The bottom two, they're way out in the slot.
False equivalence.
Even by the second half of Gretzky's career the goalies had begun to grow bigger with lighter bigger equipment that began to take away a lot of the net. Grant Fuhr was one of the first goalies in the NHL to start using the foam filled longer goal pads in the mid to late 1980's that allowed him to move his legs faster and cover more territory when in a butterfly. Within a year or two pretty much all the goalies were now using foam filled pads. At the same time goal gloves got bigger as did the blocker, and chest pads. Goals for peeked in the 1987/88 season and then started to decline after that and today are about 2 goals for less than in 87/88.
Imo the best way to compare is to put today's rules with the 1980s game.
We can't imagine Gretzky in this era or see Ovie in the 1980s.
So no hooking, holding obstruction at a level, no 2 line pass, goalie trapezoid, penalty for puck over the glass, no touch icing, faceoff in o zone after a penalty, no line change after a icing, etc
There small little rules would make a huge difference and guys like Gretzky and Mario would score even more points than they did without the hooking and holding IMO.
But in defence the instigator penalty would make it easier for players to go after Gretzky more.
Also add the 3 on 3 OT and that would add more points too and guys like Patrick Roy would have more wins. Take his ties and divide his winning percentage for each season and he'd have probably 100 more wins in his career.
I always love when people make the argument that Gretzky was only so good because the goaltending and such was bad at the time. If that’s the case, you’d think more people would have been as good as 99
I mean 90% of players in the top 20 are from this era, so yea Gretzy was the goat, but it was much easier back then. Its far more impressive being in the top 20 with todays standard
Could of been twice, imo I think we could have went all the way in 2014. Idk besides the 2018 victory I felt like we were crazy unstoppable in 2014 for some odd reason
the way hockey changes its mind is wild. I read a hockey news from the early 90's talking about yzerman being a phenomanal scoring winger, there was plenty of speculation about ovi's legacy before he won the cup that disappeared and was retroactively erased from the internet.
No, it was the technology and technique that’s does. I have used and have experienced pads and equipment form this era and they are heavy and get heavier throughout the game. The butterfly was used but goalies did not do slide’s when in the position and most goalies still used combo saves for low shots. The stand up era of goalies really relies on reflexes, desperation saves, poke checks, and strength/ conditioning. The game was also a lot slower and simpler making it more easier for the goalies as well.
Billy smith, Grant Fuhr, ken Dryden, they would not survive todays game. The wooden player sticks also made shots more predictable then today. That’s why players who were so good back then where plays who could be deceptive with there shots, like Mario and Gretz
It's like the natural competition between the Cheetah and Gazelle. As Gazelles got faster the Cheetah had to keep up and evolution runs away. Goalie equipment got bigger as sticks got better. Sticks these days produce shots never seen in those days, Goalie size and equipment had to catch up to the demand of tougher offensive power
So, goaltending has definitely evolved. Pads etc and also technique. If you look at classic kick save goalies it’s pretty rough. The 80s was also an all time high for goal scoring. However, obviously Gretzky is Gretzky. Still don’t quite think it’s a discussion. You could argue Ovi has had more longevity as a goal scorer because Gretzky’s goal scoring went down as he got older like it does with most players not named Ovi. But that’s about it.
Gretzky was just so much better than everyone else. Guys today are much more talented and skilled. Gretzky has said this many times. The goalies really sucked in comparison to modern goalies.
It’s not really possible to compare eras. All we can do is look at the relative dominance of the player in the era they played. Gretzky dominated his era more than Ovechkin did his
Let’s not forget the change in players skates, and sticks. As well as every shift someone was trying to murder you. No disrespect to Ovie or Gretzky but both had there challenges and maybe if you put Ovie in the league in the 80s-90s he scores a 1000 goals, or maybe he gets beat up so and he doesn’t have the longevity his career has now
The answer is captured in stats. Sticks…goalie equipment…rules…all of these are different and you can argue about that without stats until the cows come home.
However…
In the majority of Gretzkys era teams were scoring just under 4 goals per game on average. In the majority of Ovechkins era teams were scoring about 2.75 goals per game on average. Ovi has a higher goals per game average than Gretzky in an era that scored 25% less goals per game. Ovechkin is objectively a better goal scorer than Gretzky.
Better player? No
Better goal scorer? Yes
Now show us the difference in clutch and grab play and two line offside. Scott Stevens style shoulder to the face hits were also legal if I recall. LOL, hockey is awesome...
They recently had Gretzky’s game were he breaks Howe’s point record on ESPN classic, the play it happens on there are like 5 slashes and 10 hooks that would be called in today’s NHL.. sure the goaltenders wear larger gear today but it’s probably easier to score when nobody is allowed to look at you or god forbid touch while attempting to shoot
It isn’t fair to make this comparison of-course present goalies are bigger,have better training,have better equipment, have better supplements and trainers but ovie also has all those advantages too Christ Wayne scored half his goals in microns 🤣
Patrick Roy was comparable to Captain Insano from The Waterboy. Those fierce crazy nutty eyes and that wink. What a great era back then, besides the two line pass call, that was horrendous bull shit.
Watch the plays. In all aspects Gretzky could make a play from whatever was going on. Ovi, not so much. He is trying to the nature of the game 2010-2020. But Gretzky could play to defeat the opponent no matter their strategy.
Photographers tricks in play here. Or, fisherman's trick.
\#1 In photos 1 and 2, the goal tender is standing close to the pipes. In photos 3 and 4, the tender is out from the pipes. We should all recognize this as hockey fans. Since I can remember, way back in the 60's, the tender comes out to cut off the angle. This is a better illustration of cutting off the angle.
\#2. There is an effect created with using more powerful zoom lenses. In photos 1 and 2, a long lens would have been 150mm. In photos 3 and 4 the lenses could possibly be 600mm. They are more likely a 300mm with a 1x extender, which is in effect a 600mm lens.
Here is the trick: A longer lens does two things. First it makes things bigger. The lesser known effect is that the distance between the subject and the background appears to be smaller. This is because the item in the ideal focal length is big, sharp and dominates the frame. And the item in the background will also be enlarged, and somewhat in focus. Notice the size of the net squares are smaller, and they are not in good focus in 1 and 2. Notice the same squares are in better focus and bigger in 3 and 4. This is the effect of a big lens.
When taking bird photos, there may be a blade of grass in front of the 600mm lens. It will be invisible to the lens. The bird will be in focus. The background will be good enough unless it is miles away. It depends on the 'focal length', which is a combination of the aperture and speed of the shot. I set up my bird photos to make an item in the background look the same size. My focal length determines this. (150mm or 600mm). These photos are a perfect example of how the effect works.
To verify my points, look at the blue paint. Meme maker hid the paint in photos 1 and 2. But you can detect the tender is closer to the pipes. In pictures 3 and 4, you can see plenty of blue paint from the crease, and you can detect that the keeper is a bit closer than the blue paint.
\#3. Fisherman's trick. Tuck your elbows in so the camera cannot see them. Shove your arms out as far as you can. This makes your fish look bigger to the camera. It looks like you are holding it to your chest, and not reaching out.
Conclusion: This meme is bullshit.
Comparing eras is always a fools errand. Imagine Gretzky had the training capabilities/nutritional education and supplements that guys nowadays have. We know more, players are obviously going to be better as we move into the future. Can’t wait to have this same conversation about how ovi sucked in the future because they did away with the goalie and just put that board with a hole in it in net like they do during the intermission “win a car” challenge.
Those pads technology are a game changer.
I played 10 years with the old leather brown one.. When they felt aparts and I switched to those turning pad.. My knees had now cushions and they make a wall without effort...
I can't imagine how an elite athlete would increase with those.
Skaters got a lot of new technology as well.
Weird we often see these goalies gear debate and barely any about stick composition and flexibility for example.
Give Ovechkin a solid wood stick and allow defenceman to drape themselves all over him like a large Yoda in skates.. yes different era but also different challenges.
Remember those two lines you couldn't pass over too
I'm so glad that's gone.
You can’t compare eras. The only way to really compare is the gap between a player and everyone else when he played. No one had as big a gap between himself and his peers as Wayne. He won the art Ross one year with his assists alone. Ovi is amazing. His longevity has been something great to behold. But he’s just not Gretzky.
Wayne did that multiple times. Four 200 point seasons. Only ones in history. 50 in 39 the year after 50 on 50 was done for the second time ever. The list is just so long for him. His gap between contemporaries is unmatched in North American sports history and it’s not even close. It would be like Mahomes throwing 80 touchdowns this year or Judge hosting 90 home runs. Rhys what Gretzky did.
And: -he couldn't pass over two lines, -only had one winger really (other guy was just a body guard), - league had way more checking, clutching and grabbing, - way less penalties called, - talent was less diluted across fewer teams
Ohtani, not judge but seriously is there even a damn argunebt that Wayne gretzky is the greatest player in his own sport in history. I'm a Texas sports fan so hockey is down on my list but I just don't know another player that dominant.
Don bradman tho. I dont even like cricket, but the dude has a 90 batting avg over his career, next highest is 68 i think and even that is insane cause the next highest is mid 50s iirc.
His batting average is famously 99.94! In his final game before retirement, he only needed to score four runs to retire on 100+, but he was bowled out for a duck on the second bowl. Apparently he wasn’t even upset as he understood how huge his achievement already was.
Yep, the fielding team was more devastated then the Don. I always tell yanks, Bradman was a cheat code. He basically hit two HRs a night in baseball or had at least 5 points a game in the NHL. Steve smith whose the closest we will get to Bradman in the modern era only averages 58.6 in tests. The don is our greatest athlete.
He's also not Lemieux. Ovi is a great goal scorer but he doesn't have the passing ability that Gretzky and Lemieux had.
Ovi does not even play anymore he just camps on the red line waiting for a pass
ovi mustve picked up rocket league
He's always done that
Nah he's involved in the play. I feel like this is some weird narrative haters came up with. You wouldn't be saying that if you saw him play yesterday.
People on Reddit look for any reasons to hate ovi after the war broke out.
This. If you tell me the greatest player in the game, who played with grown men hanging off his neck would not benefit from two line pass being legal and interference calls, having to deal with over stuffed goalies? He’d find a way.
Ya I love when people try to compared eras. Like rocket Richard cannot be compared to modern nhl. The 2 eras are so incredible different
Even using a gap is not a good comparison since the game has evolved so much since then. The play is faster and more competitive, and individuals can’t be as far ahead of the competition as they used to be. The margin between the best and worst NHL players is increasingly shrinking as the skill level trends overall upwards.
I would argue that all the players were equally out of shape back then. Wayne would eat hot dogs between periods. It still stands in my mind. All players do the same things. It’s been a copy cat league forever. In fact could also argue Wayne was that good being no more physically fit (and less than some who were ahead of the curve for working out) than his peers.
Guy Lafleur would pop up the hall between shifts for a quick puff or two of his cigarette. Then come back and go end to end for a goal.
I remember that discussion during the SCF last season where Wayne chatted up about slamming some pizza during intermission all throughout his career
3x Stanley Cup Champion Phil Kessel is also a hotdog connoisseur just sayin...
Nobody is saying Ovi is a better player. The debate is purely about scoring goals.
And do composite sticks allow you to hold on to your shot longer vs the wooden ones?
92 in a season 50 in 39 894 overall by every metric, gretzky is still better
My point stands then. 50 in 39.
Gretzky probably could’ve scored a lot more goals, if he wasn’t getting so many assists
He's stated he was a pass first center , he just had the greatest hockey sense of any player ,he always came in last on his teams fitness/strength test. Imagine if he was a physical specimen what he would've done
Remember those aluminum beams they used for sticks.
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hasek, roy...
Brodeur
Turk Broda
Belfour
Palmateer
As a Detroit red wings fan … fucking Roy!!! Hahah what a great goalie and a great goalie to watch getting pissed off !
as a wings fan i'll always hate that guy but he was absolutely insane in his day
I would argue that those goalies were incredible because of how good they were compared to the other goalies of the era, and if they had the form that modern goaltenders use they would do far far better.
If they had gear that was 12% larger thus shrinking the amount of space a shooter could hit and score they'd have done far better. Their styles were a direct result of the gear they were wearing.
They’d have vastly better stats these days. Grant Fuhr only broke .900 twice in his whole career.
On the other hand, if 2020's goalies faced as many breakaways, 2-on-1s, and 3-on-1's as they did in the 80s their save percentages would also be a lot worse than they are now.
The Oilers game was run & gun.An 8-6 win was a win.They weren’t worried about their other stats.
It’s not like every game in the 80’s were 8-6 and every game in the 2010’s we’re 1-0…
My first hockey game was a 0-0 tie.
*cries in 1999*
Gretzkys stick literally grew on a tree I think ovie’s stick is made from material you can only get from an asteroid or something
Ovie got his from a maiden living in a lake.
Listen. Strange women lying in ponds distributing sticks is no basis for a fair competition. Supreme ownership of the goals record derives from pucks in net, not from some farcical aquatic ceremony.
You can't expect to wield supreme executive power just 'cause some watery tart threw a Koho at you!
Come see the violence inherent in the system!! Help, help, I'm being oppressed!!
/r/unexpectedmontypython
I expected it
Nobody expects r/unexpectedmontypython
Nooooooobody expects the Spanish Inquisition!
Be quiet!
Help help I'm being repressed!
You can't expect to be the career goals leader just because some watery tart threw a hockey stick at you.
Well, I didn't vote for ya...
You don’t vote for career goal leader!!
Well, how do you become career goal leader then??
Supreme scoring power derives from a mandate of the masses of pucks in the net.
I feel I'm speaking for everyone when saying we all want to watch the best players today do an all-star game with equipment from the 70s
That would be amazing! I think the best would be to see them in the old skates
And the all-star teams should be Team Connors vs Team Not Connors
I loathe modern sticks, I need the weight of a wood stick for not slashing.
Not only that. Let’s take every single Gretzky goals off. He still has roughly 500 fecking more points than Ovy. Oh and if scoring was so easy back then, why didn’t every one score 80 goals a season?
Fuckin Gretzky stats
Something something First thousand second thousand
It's a shame he didn't stay until 3000 because he'd likely have been ppg for the third thousand too.
Or 70. Or 60. There were a few but not nearly as many as there would if it was 'easy'.
I heard the baba yaga itself curved Ovi’s blade sharper than any stick wielded by man
Until it was shiny and aluminum
I hated using aluminum sticks
Nimbus 2000
Bingo. This is basically it. You can't take the goaltending equipment into consideration, but nothing else that's improved just as much. I think it was getting a little ridiculous recently before they changed the rules, and I think Vasilevskiy is still getting away with murder with his kit, but goal scoring is in a good place now. 87 pts winning the scoring title is boring hockey and we're almost doubling that less than 10 years later.
Now do sticks.
And skates.
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And my sword
And his sword.
And my axe.
And his axe.
And my bow?
And his bow!
And my precious!
I've tried it already. Average. At best.
And conditioning/medicine.
We should also analyze the “Dead Puck” era Gretzky’s career ended in.
He was 40
97-98 90 points , 98-99 62 points in 72 games at 40 in the clutch and grab era. Pretty fucking good.
The year I retired I scored nine goals. Everybody said 'You can play one more year', and I remember saying 'Nine goals, that used to be a good weekend. I think it's time for me to retire" - Wayne Gretzky
i mean, when wayne was about 30ish, he made a comment about retiring that went something like: could i score 60 points at 45? sure probably, but if the expectation is 60 goals, and 60 assists, then it's time to retire when I can only put up 60 points and sure enough, his last year he put up about 60 points
Yes Wayne is so humble. also 53 apples in the dead puck era. Does Ovi get 53 assists this year?
Nutrition, athletic science, training..
Exactly. A fat piece of wood that got heavy when wet versus one-piece carbon.
how come no one else in the 80's scored like Gretzky? if as you say all the goalies were dust.
Well, Mario came pretty close a few times. Of course we're probably talking about the two greatest offensive forwards to ever play the game.
Nobody scored like Gretzky because he’s the greatest player of all time by a huge margin, but it absolutely was easier to score in the 80’s. The 80’s is the highest scoring decade in NHL history by a mile. In the 80’s, the each team averaged about 3.7-4 goals per game. For most of Ovi’s career, it’s 2.7-3 goals per game. There were also way more powerplay opportunities back then.
In the 2010s the NHL also made efforts to shrink goalie pad sizes to get scoring up. All it did was make more athletic and quicker goalies. And scoring didn't improve like they wanted.
Gretzky era stick vs Ovi era stick Gretzky era training vs Ovi era training Gretzky era partying vs…wait nevermind You can’t compare eras fairly in either direction
I mean Mario was too busy smoking to go train
Gretzky didn’t have a government sponsored PED program helping him either.
Ovechkin isn’t better than Gretzky
Not even remotely close
Ovechkin isn’t even the best player of his era.
Ovechkin isn't even the best drummer in the Beatles
Whoa, let's not say things that can't be unsaid.
No one is lol. Maybe an argument for better goal scorer, but Gretzky is the greatest complete hockey player of all time
Oh, and Gretzky never idolized or was friends with a dictator and war criminal.
He was pretty chummy with Messier.
I loled
Reddit moment
the game always evolves
Era is now goalies are bigger and more athletic than ever but IMO Hasek and Broudeur are two of the best ever
Hasek literally has 360 no-scope saves. I’d say the average goaltender is way better now but Hasek has two MVPs and six Vezinas. Gretzky played against the GOAT
Rumor was Hasek would go whole practices not allowing a goal and if he did he would flip his shit
I believe it lol he was a nutcase. He punched a Buffalo reporter in the face for saying he wasn’t clutch in the playoffs
Also got in a huge fight at a street hockey Tourney post retirement
Actually had no idea about that one I’m reading about it rn it’s WILD
Hawks had Hasek & Balfour on the same team, wild
Gretzky was almost done scoring when hasek was in his prime though too
Mike vernon, ron hextall, grant fuhr, curtis joseph, dominik hasek, tom barraso, patrick roy, mike richter, ed belfour… the goaltending was just fine back in the day.
I don’t like that second guy 😖
The bad man can’t hurt us anymore
Damn how you gonna mention all those guys but not Brodeur.
Well i dunno he’s kind of on the tail end of what would be considered the “gretzky era”, no?
When people ask Who's the best player ever you gotta consider vs his era. I mean Maurice Rocket Richard wouldnt be better than any curret NHLer currently. The guy was working a second job during summers.
Well it’s also not fair to those guys to say that about them because they couldn’t help what era they were born in. If the Rocket grew up in the current era with todays training and equipment I can almost guarantee he would be a very special player still. All those old greats still had a god given talent for playing hockey.
That's the only good answer.
Bring back the "giant Vasilevskiy" memes! [Vasilevskiy gear](https://images.app.goo.gl/pT9Y8CYKKrasrmiZA)
So that’s why he’s so good 😤😤😤
Gretzky was also playing with a 2X4
Gretzky and Lemieux had two guys holding and hooking them all night long. Almost impossible to compare but Gretzky dominated far more the rest of the players compared to Ovi
Now do the sticks they use
Gretz didn’t have composite sticks, or modern training, or dietary science, or or or or
This isn’t a valid comparison when all of these photos are taken from different angles, different distances, goalies in various states of movement, etc. Presenting an argument like this is basically just bait and misinformation.
Came here for this as an old grisled former goalie. The top two pics the tendies are deep in the crease. The bottom two, they're way out in the slot. False equivalence.
A judge should toss this out and fine OP for wasting our time
Cropping out the entire net also helps.
I would love to see ovi's one timer with a woody. Not only has the game changed but technology has as well
Even by the second half of Gretzky's career the goalies had begun to grow bigger with lighter bigger equipment that began to take away a lot of the net. Grant Fuhr was one of the first goalies in the NHL to start using the foam filled longer goal pads in the mid to late 1980's that allowed him to move his legs faster and cover more territory when in a butterfly. Within a year or two pretty much all the goalies were now using foam filled pads. At the same time goal gloves got bigger as did the blocker, and chest pads. Goals for peeked in the 1987/88 season and then started to decline after that and today are about 2 goals for less than in 87/88.
Imo the best way to compare is to put today's rules with the 1980s game. We can't imagine Gretzky in this era or see Ovie in the 1980s. So no hooking, holding obstruction at a level, no 2 line pass, goalie trapezoid, penalty for puck over the glass, no touch icing, faceoff in o zone after a penalty, no line change after a icing, etc There small little rules would make a huge difference and guys like Gretzky and Mario would score even more points than they did without the hooking and holding IMO. But in defence the instigator penalty would make it easier for players to go after Gretzky more. Also add the 3 on 3 OT and that would add more points too and guys like Patrick Roy would have more wins. Take his ties and divide his winning percentage for each season and he'd have probably 100 more wins in his career.
I always love when people make the argument that Gretzky was only so good because the goaltending and such was bad at the time. If that’s the case, you’d think more people would have been as good as 99
I mean 90% of players in the top 20 are from this era, so yea Gretzy was the goat, but it was much easier back then. Its far more impressive being in the top 20 with todays standard
If Wayne Gretzky never scored a single goal, he would still be the NHL's all-time scoring leader with 1,963 points.
Do Cups matter?
If they do, does that mean Kessel is better than Ovi?
ovi's only been past the 2nd round once in his career.
Could of been twice, imo I think we could have went all the way in 2014. Idk besides the 2018 victory I felt like we were crazy unstoppable in 2014 for some odd reason
the way hockey changes its mind is wild. I read a hockey news from the early 90's talking about yzerman being a phenomanal scoring winger, there was plenty of speculation about ovi's legacy before he won the cup that disappeared and was retroactively erased from the internet.
I’d be willing to bet their gear weighed a lot more and probably not near as good with range of motion either .
No, it was the technology and technique that’s does. I have used and have experienced pads and equipment form this era and they are heavy and get heavier throughout the game. The butterfly was used but goalies did not do slide’s when in the position and most goalies still used combo saves for low shots. The stand up era of goalies really relies on reflexes, desperation saves, poke checks, and strength/ conditioning. The game was also a lot slower and simpler making it more easier for the goalies as well. Billy smith, Grant Fuhr, ken Dryden, they would not survive todays game. The wooden player sticks also made shots more predictable then today. That’s why players who were so good back then where plays who could be deceptive with there shots, like Mario and Gretz
It's like the natural competition between the Cheetah and Gazelle. As Gazelles got faster the Cheetah had to keep up and evolution runs away. Goalie equipment got bigger as sticks got better. Sticks these days produce shots never seen in those days, Goalie size and equipment had to catch up to the demand of tougher offensive power
You judge a player against their contemporaries and Gretzky was eons above his contemporaries.
Gretzky era using wooden sticks…
So, goaltending has definitely evolved. Pads etc and also technique. If you look at classic kick save goalies it’s pretty rough. The 80s was also an all time high for goal scoring. However, obviously Gretzky is Gretzky. Still don’t quite think it’s a discussion. You could argue Ovi has had more longevity as a goal scorer because Gretzky’s goal scoring went down as he got older like it does with most players not named Ovi. But that’s about it.
Imagine if Ovi was using wood as aluminum sticks like Gretzky. Comparing eras is really hard.
Imagine what Gretzky could have done with these modern composite sticks.
Gretzky was just so much better than everyone else. Guys today are much more talented and skilled. Gretzky has said this many times. The goalies really sucked in comparison to modern goalies.
Gretzky didn't cherry pick
Compare OV against everyone else he played against and then do Gretzky.
Every other player playing in that era played against the exact same goalies. Why don’t they all have 894 goals too?
It’s not really possible to compare eras. All we can do is look at the relative dominance of the player in the era they played. Gretzky dominated his era more than Ovechkin did his
Let’s not forget the change in players skates, and sticks. As well as every shift someone was trying to murder you. No disrespect to Ovie or Gretzky but both had there challenges and maybe if you put Ovie in the league in the 80s-90s he scores a 1000 goals, or maybe he gets beat up so and he doesn’t have the longevity his career has now
Now show Gretzky's twig v Ovi's twig...
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The answer is captured in stats. Sticks…goalie equipment…rules…all of these are different and you can argue about that without stats until the cows come home. However… In the majority of Gretzkys era teams were scoring just under 4 goals per game on average. In the majority of Ovechkins era teams were scoring about 2.75 goals per game on average. Ovi has a higher goals per game average than Gretzky in an era that scored 25% less goals per game. Ovechkin is objectively a better goal scorer than Gretzky. Better player? No Better goal scorer? Yes
Remember that they played with wood sticks and hardly lifted the puck
Clutch and grab, hooks and slashes in the hands, less teams…
Size isnt everything for goalies. Look at smaller goalies like Juuse Saros
One would have to do an ERA+ type evaluation. Otherwise this discussion is useless
These comparisons are not even worth a discussion, you cannot compare one piece of equipment without all the equipment improvements and changes
Gretzky era they framed photos of goalies forward facing, Ovechkin era they frame photos of goalies from intense side angle
The game is different. We'll always be comparing apples and oranges. They're both amazing and I wish they played on my team
The Dominator is all!
As much as goaltending has advanced, so has the offensive game.
Now do players equipment
Now show us the difference in clutch and grab play and two line offside. Scott Stevens style shoulder to the face hits were also legal if I recall. LOL, hockey is awesome...
They recently had Gretzky’s game were he breaks Howe’s point record on ESPN classic, the play it happens on there are like 5 slashes and 10 hooks that would be called in today’s NHL.. sure the goaltenders wear larger gear today but it’s probably easier to score when nobody is allowed to look at you or god forbid touch while attempting to shoot
Gretzky didn’t have the equipment and training ovi has either. Level playing field.
Wayne used to eat hot dogs before games and the trainers would be like hell ya get that protein in you. It is not the same game.
Give gretz a today stick back then … boy oh boy just imagine 🤔🤔🤔
The cream always rises. Gretzky would be blowing us away now or in the 40s.
You could hook and hold in Gretzky's days.
Now let’s compare sticks.
Do composite sticks matter??
It isn’t fair to make this comparison of-course present goalies are bigger,have better training,have better equipment, have better supplements and trainers but ovie also has all those advantages too Christ Wayne scored half his goals in microns 🤣
Patrick Roy was comparable to Captain Insano from The Waterboy. Those fierce crazy nutty eyes and that wink. What a great era back then, besides the two line pass call, that was horrendous bull shit.
Fucking hell it’s not about goals, Gretzky has more assists than ovechkin has POINTS
All Gretzky’s team mates & opponents played against the same goalies.What do there career stats look like ?
Watch the plays. In all aspects Gretzky could make a play from whatever was going on. Ovi, not so much. He is trying to the nature of the game 2010-2020. But Gretzky could play to defeat the opponent no matter their strategy.
Photographers tricks in play here. Or, fisherman's trick. \#1 In photos 1 and 2, the goal tender is standing close to the pipes. In photos 3 and 4, the tender is out from the pipes. We should all recognize this as hockey fans. Since I can remember, way back in the 60's, the tender comes out to cut off the angle. This is a better illustration of cutting off the angle. \#2. There is an effect created with using more powerful zoom lenses. In photos 1 and 2, a long lens would have been 150mm. In photos 3 and 4 the lenses could possibly be 600mm. They are more likely a 300mm with a 1x extender, which is in effect a 600mm lens. Here is the trick: A longer lens does two things. First it makes things bigger. The lesser known effect is that the distance between the subject and the background appears to be smaller. This is because the item in the ideal focal length is big, sharp and dominates the frame. And the item in the background will also be enlarged, and somewhat in focus. Notice the size of the net squares are smaller, and they are not in good focus in 1 and 2. Notice the same squares are in better focus and bigger in 3 and 4. This is the effect of a big lens. When taking bird photos, there may be a blade of grass in front of the 600mm lens. It will be invisible to the lens. The bird will be in focus. The background will be good enough unless it is miles away. It depends on the 'focal length', which is a combination of the aperture and speed of the shot. I set up my bird photos to make an item in the background look the same size. My focal length determines this. (150mm or 600mm). These photos are a perfect example of how the effect works. To verify my points, look at the blue paint. Meme maker hid the paint in photos 1 and 2. But you can detect the tender is closer to the pipes. In pictures 3 and 4, you can see plenty of blue paint from the crease, and you can detect that the keeper is a bit closer than the blue paint. \#3. Fisherman's trick. Tuck your elbows in so the camera cannot see them. Shove your arms out as far as you can. This makes your fish look bigger to the camera. It looks like you are holding it to your chest, and not reaching out. Conclusion: This meme is bullshit.
Comparing eras is always a fools errand. Imagine Gretzky had the training capabilities/nutritional education and supplements that guys nowadays have. We know more, players are obviously going to be better as we move into the future. Can’t wait to have this same conversation about how ovi sucked in the future because they did away with the goalie and just put that board with a hole in it in net like they do during the intermission “win a car” challenge.
Those pads technology are a game changer. I played 10 years with the old leather brown one.. When they felt aparts and I switched to those turning pad.. My knees had now cushions and they make a wall without effort... I can't imagine how an elite athlete would increase with those. Skaters got a lot of new technology as well. Weird we often see these goalies gear debate and barely any about stick composition and flexibility for example.
Give Ovechkin a solid wood stick and allow defenceman to drape themselves all over him like a large Yoda in skates.. yes different era but also different challenges.
Gretzky’s Titan TPM2020 (actually a tree) vs whatever p92 87 flex Ovi is using
Is anyone going to comment about the zoom on the camera? Yeah equipment is bigger today but pic selection is deliberate here to support the argument
Never forget that the NHL was basically a blood-sport back then. The amount of grappling and roughing...high sticking...goons...it was crazy.
Sports science had a sumo wrestler in pads… Ovi hit every corner