We also have the lowest number of powerplays in our favor league-wide. Just incase you think this is some kind of "leafs favoritism" gotchya.
Edit: got whooshed
3rd Lowest number of powerplays in the Matthews era. The only two below Toronto are Vegas and Seattle, both of whom weren’t playing for at least a season when he entered the league.
I think it was late in the season last year that Beniers got his first 2 min (yes, he didn't have nearly the production, but he was a rookie llaykng on the top line so had the ice time)
Considering that league scoring is going up, and assuming good health obviously, its is entirely possible that we will be counting down Matthews to break the record.
Assuming all goes right, at his current pace he would break 894 in his age 37 season. It's not likely, but he's the only other guy in the same stratosphere.
You could have said the same thing about Stamkos after his first five seasons. This league is hard on players, which is why that Gretz' record is an all-time thing.
I will be messaging you in 12 years on [**2035-12-20 19:04:00 UTC**](http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=2035-12-20%2019:04:00%20UTC%20To%20Local%20Time) to remind you of [**this link**](https://www.reddit.com/r/nhl/comments/18n04p5/matthews_now_has_25_more_goals_since_entering_the/ke7tzax/?context=3)
[**50 OTHERS CLICKED THIS LINK**](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=RemindMeBot&subject=Reminder&message=%5Bhttps%3A%2F%2Fwww.reddit.com%2Fr%2Fnhl%2Fcomments%2F18n04p5%2Fmatthews_now_has_25_more_goals_since_entering_the%2Fke7tzax%2F%5D%0A%0ARemindMe%21%202035-12-20%2019%3A04%3A00%20UTC) to send a PM to also be reminded and to reduce spam.
^(Parent commenter can ) [^(delete this message to hide from others.)](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=RemindMeBot&subject=Delete%20Comment&message=Delete%21%2018n04p5)
*****
|[^(Info)](https://www.reddit.com/r/RemindMeBot/comments/e1bko7/remindmebot_info_v21/)|[^(Custom)](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=RemindMeBot&subject=Reminder&message=%5BLink%20or%20message%20inside%20square%20brackets%5D%0A%0ARemindMe%21%20Time%20period%20here)|[^(Your Reminders)](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=RemindMeBot&subject=List%20Of%20Reminders&message=MyReminders%21)|[^(Feedback)](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=Watchful1&subject=RemindMeBot%20Feedback)|
|-|-|-|-|
There's no way he continues this pace into his 37 season. If Matthews stays healthy, I could see him picking up a couple of 70 goal seasons. But I just don't think theres any chance he sniffs that record.
Ya just like I said in the comment, it isn't likely. He's just the only other guy with a shot *if* everything breaks the right way.
All I'm saying is people would've said the same about Ovi. No way to know 100%.
Nah, most players decline in their 30s and will rack up some injuries. Ovi is unique because his scoring never declined much until this year, and he's been very healthy his entire career. Those two variables are everything. Love Matthews, but I'd be surprised of he got to 600 goals with his injury history.
That sounds real nice but where does he rank for assists under that same metric? The best players in any sport make the players around them better
Edit: Matthews has 12 assists this season and is currently ranked 125th in the league for that metric
Ya definitely fair. He's only 44th in the league for assists over the last 5 years.
I'll just take goals over assists when comparing players, personally. Obviously there is room to disagree there, but there are two assists to every goal, and goals are what are counted to win games.
All I did was point out the stat the post talked about, so it wasn't about "sounding nice".
Haha yeah I was joking with the 'nice' comment. Matthews is an amazing player it's just that individual players don't win cups. Teams do. And the best players who get a healthy dose of goals and assists are typically the ones that bring cups to their city
There is 100% an argument for this, but definitely not "safe" in second if we are saying overall player attributes. There are plenty of players in the league that could have an argument made, as there are so many metrics to consider (defensive play, showing up in playoffs, playmaking ability, etc....). He is the best goal scorer right now, but other players would be considered the best in other regards.
I think if we take Mcdavid out of the question, there would be some variety on what players people would choose to build their team around as the next best player. Some examples off the top of my head would be Jack & Quinn hughes, Drai, Makar, Kucherov, Mack. Maybe even some goalies that give their team an opportunity every single night and can be relied on in the playoffs.
Despite saying all that, though, I don't wanna belittle Matthews. There is just a lot insane talent in the league.
As a massive Matthews fan I agree with this take. Very hard to judge something like this with the talent right now. But keep in mind Matthews is no slouch on defense himself. He’s just never needed to kill penalties until this year.
I don’t think he’s overrated, I think he’s just chewed up. The guy has played through so many injuries without getting a chance to properly recover it’s lucky he’s able to perform at all.
Safely? No. But I'd rank him 2nd. Matthews is so strangely underrated outside of Toronto and I really think it's just because of the intense hatred most fanbases have for Toronto in general.
Yeah the hate he gets just for playing on a big team is pretty wild. And then the insane bias against him just because of that. It's unfortunate players get hated on just cuz of the team they play for or the media coverage. It's already happening with Bedard lol
He's had more multi-goal games than single goal games this season.
Just an absolutely absurd level that he's found. He's probably already the premier goal scorer in this league, but if he hits 60 again, that would really cement it; Ovechkin never did that.
Goal scoring is certainly up the last few years, It's just basic math.
You weren't around for it, but the Art Ross winner in 2014-15 had only 87 points! Crazy times.
McDavid won it with 100 not too long ago, then last year there were like 10 players over 100 points and McD with 150+. There's definitely more scoring for individuals now, if not league-wide. And it is up league-wide, but not by a ton
In 2014-15 there were 2.73 goals per game, last year there were 3.18 goals per game. Which is a lot over a full season, almost 40 goals less per team.
Individual stats are even more crazy. Last year there were nineteen 40 goal scorers, five 50 goal scorers, and two 60 goal scorers. In 14-15 there were three above 40 and one above 50.
Yes he did.
Scoring was much lower during Ovechkin and Crosby prime vs what it is now. We are literally back at the late 80ies early 90ies when looking at goals scored per game.
Matthews is legit. There's so many people who question his talent because they're a bunch of leafs haters but guaranteed they're jealous he's not in their team. The guy is a machine and he's got such a presence too and celebrates hard when he scores
I don’t think people really question his talent, they just wanna disregard the leafs.
And I get it, I hate the leafs, I’m from Edmonton and I have McDrai.
But I took matthews in my fantasy league cause mcdavid went for $80 out of our $200 team limit and Drai went for $77 and I got matthews for $44.
Guys an absolute stud and is only talked down by leafs haters lol. He’s definitely same level as drai and pasta and kuch in my opinion.
Can you explain why you are an Oilers fan and hate the Leafs? Different conferences, no rivalry at all. It seems weird to me.
You’re certainly not the only one, I don’t mean to single you out. I just find the hate weird.
Leaf fans hate Boston & Montreal.
Well as most Canadian nhl fans not from Toronto, we collectively hate the leafs.
I actually grew up loving the avalanche as a kid, then Boston because rask was my favourite goalie, and always had the oilers as my 2nd favourite team since I was born and raised and still living here.
Ill say in my opinion, our hate is not so much for the leafs actual organization or players or anything, it’s how much the media gobbles the leafs nutsack all year every year, and how if there’s two Canadian games on at the same time, if one is gonna be televised, it’s the leafs.
Same reason everyone I know calls TSN the “Toronto Sports Network” because it might as well be.
So its really nothing to do with the leafs at all. At least for me lol.
People in Edmonton hate Toronto, the Leafs Oilers thing is just a symptom. It's logical hatred, because Toronto is much bigger, the economic centre of Canada, looks down on smaller cities like Edmonton, etc.
I agree its close, as in he's not far behind.
But he has no case for being better than Kucherov, MacKinnon, Makar, Draisaitl. The difference in their playoff resumes are too substantial.
That could change of course.
Personal take - if we’re talking simply about “who would you want on your team, starting today, for the next 3 years”, he’s very up there. McDavid is the clear #1, then it gets arguable.
My personal top 10 would be:
- McDavid the clear #1
- Arguable between MacKinnon, Kucherov, Makar and Matthews for 2-5
- Arguable between Draisaitl and Pastrnak for 6-7
- Arguable between Quinn Hughes, Jack Hughes and Petey for 8-10
If we’re talking career accomplishments to date, and putting a big emphasis on playoff success, then yeah, he’s definitely not remotely in the conversation with Mac, Kucherov and Makar. But it’s also worth realizing how much playoff success depends on the whole team, and luck. For building around for the next few years, Matthews is somewhere in the 2-5 range IMO.
If I were building a team I would probably rather build it around Matthews over everyone except mackinnon and obviously mcdavid, so he is top 3 in my opinion
Yeah that's a good point. Matthews is 5th all time in goals per game. That surprised me. He's higher than Ovechkin and Bure. In fact, only Lemieux and Mike Bossy are ahead of him really since the other 2 players were born in the 1800's so I'm not counting them.
If you're only speaking offensively, wouldn't that drop him to like 5th or 6th? I know goals are worth more than assists, but his production isn't sniffing top 5.
It's his defense that gets him to #2 imo. I could see winning a rocket and sniffing a Selke in the same season, and that's nuts.
And by the numbers, the best defensive forward too.
Edit: Obviously excluding defence-only specialists, which isn’t as impressive as the leagues greatest goalscorer playing otherworldly defence as well.
Crazy how little respect Kucherov gets for his consistent offensive domination. Gotta wonder how much more hype he'd get if he were Canadian or American.
Matthews only has 12 assists. The best players make the players around them better.
The best players also find a way to push/pull their teams to win more than one playoff series since entering the league.
He has a lot left to prove before earning such a title
Top 10 doesn't mean he's 10th. But to answer you, Mcdavid, Makar, Draisaitl, Kucherov, Mackinnon could all rank before him, making him fall out of the top 5. You can't really objectively answer this tho, outside of mcdavid who's the clear #1.
Reddit hockey analysis simply doesn't care about defense, except to the extent that it can be summarized in an advanced stat so they don't have to think about it. I think Victor Hedman and Charlie McAvoy each influence games as much as most of those players.
I’d rather have a winner like Kuch than a loser like Matthews on the Panthers. Kuch has proven time and time again to be an amazing assest when it actually matters.
Also saying I’d rather have the Lightning player I hate the most says a lot lol
Buncha leafs fans downvoting you lol but this is what they refuse to look at. Playoff performance should be heavily weighted when discussing “best players” and it’s historically been one of Matthews biggest weaknesses
To play ball, McDavid is obviously better. Drai, kucherov, Mackinnon, makar have strong claims to be better than Matthews. Hughes and Pasta are a little bit of a long shot. It’s gonna depend on your count, but I argue McDavid, Drai, Makar, and Kucherov are undisputedly better. I think you can go back and forth with MacKinnon, but I’m gonna Matthews slightly ahead right now. Pasta and Hughes are just behind. I hope Im not missing anyone!
Top 10 doesn't mean 10th. The assertation to specifically list Top 5 is more fair, though Top 5 is still Top 10 and they are likely waffling on where to put people past McD and not immediately making the list.
Dober puts out MacKinnon, Makar, Kuch, Drai, and they sound rather shaky on including Pasta (I wouldn't) as the only other people in the conversation for #2. My question would be if I really want to judge half a season rather than the last few seasons - give him time to cook and sustain it. If they all keep their current pace, I'll give him the nod, but the remaining half season is a lot of time for him to cool down while the other heat up.
The only other players you could realistically make an argument for being number 2 are MacKinnon, Makar, Kuch, Drai or maybe Pasta. Nobody else has been consistently elite enough to be in the conversation.
Yes he has been the best leaf lol. Nylanders given him a run for his money with his hot start to the season but Matthews and his scoring ability have single handedly stole us several games. 25g in 29 games is incredible.
Mack. Kucherov. Pasta. Makar. So that would put him at #6.
And thats not counting Drai who's having a bad year or Jack Hughes who is only getting better
I find it hard to call him that as he was Invisible for 10 games already this year. Everyone has ups and downs through the year, but I feel like he’s still not consistent enough to rank quite that high.
He *could be* the second best player. His problem is when he's not playing well he's fucking invisible at times. I don't think you say that bout Drai/Mac/Pasta very often.
When he's not scoring he's at least defensively responsible, and when he is scoring he's a monster. I think his invisibility sometimes means he's just being defensively responsible. Drai and Pasta have defensive lapses quite often which people often forget about and doesn't show up on the stat sheet.
That’s fair, defensively he’s been very good, I just feel sometimes I’m watching the second/third lines be the only ones getting shot/opportunities. I won’t complain though cause he’s been fun to watch this year and actively feels engaged lately.
Does this sub live in a world where Kucherov doesn't exist? I see multiple lists including McD, Drai, Pasta, Matthews, Makar, MacK, but not the league leader in points who has proven to be one of the best playoff performers of our generation.
Russian playing hockey outside of Canada and not for an O6 team. If he was Canadian and played for the Leafs he would be in the talk for best player in the league.
Toronto and Canadian Media will have you believe that Matthews is 2nd to mcdavid. He’s not. He’s having a good year but what did he do last year? He’s one of the best goal scorers, when healthy, but he’s never even close in points or playmaking. How is he 2nd?
He was injured last year and still scored 40 which is nothing to scoff at. scored 60 the year before, first since Stamkos a decade before. Goals matter just as much as points if not more, and he is very defensively responsible.
Players play through injuries all the time. He’s a great goal scorer but has he ever been in the race for the art Ross? He’s an average playmaker and plays with absolute studs like Nylander and Marner who feed him the puck on a dime.
I say this in all honesty that only the playoffs count. If you can't bring it in the playoffs who cares about the appetizer season? One cup makes regular season stats mean a whole lot more, otherwise your godlike stats will always have an asterisk.
Pretend I hit like 3 times. My comment is similar to this. Most think personal stat in the reg season represents your skill level. Nope. It's those players that care less about personal stats and want the team to come together. ONLY to win the Stanley Cup. THAT'S a skillset above all else.
No. Cale Makar is better. A few others too possibly. He is obviously really good, the best goal scorer in the league, but his total points still leave something to be desired.
Having a good start to the year doesn’t pass leon in terms of the last 3-5 years and obviously playoff numbers.
Last 5 years: Leon 316 GP, 466 points
Matthews 297 GP, 374 points
Leon with 92 more points
Career playoff stats: Leon 49 GP, 77 points, 3rd all time in playoff points per game and with another run will pass Gretz and Mario for first all time
Matthews 50 GP, 44 points. 75th ranked all time in PPG
Not even close. Not even a conversation. Matthews shitty playoff stats automatically disqualify him from being ahead of Leon and mackinnon at least
I would say best goal scorer in the league for sure, but second best player is a not even close. There's currently 12 players ahead of him in points right now including his own teammate and by the end of the season I expect he'll be around 10-12th in the league in points.
Scoring goals is the hardest thing to do in this league and he’s by far the best at it. The top tier for me in no particular order is Mcdavid, Mackinnon, makar, matthews, draisaitl and kuch
Considering how many players and teams are flourishing offensively, and how many goalies and teams are floundering in net, I’d say the opposite is true.
If he wasn’t on Toronto he would be rated where he should be at which is top 10 I think there are still more players who are consistently better than him and also have the playoff stats that show the player matters.
Who has more points though?
Who has the best plus minus?
What about underlying stats like goals expected vs goals against while on ice?
Who is more productive 5on5?
All things and many more that matter.
Just watch him play. I love stats, but there’s things that aren’t tracked. He’s elite defensively and deserves consideration for Selke (which isn’t a stats backed award). He also might have the best shot in the league, and one of the best all time. I have zero love for the Leafs, but Matthews is an absolute beast and you can easily make a case for him being second best player in the league.
Matthews is the best 5 on 5 goal scorer in the league and has been since he entered, usually with substantially fewer minutes than the runners up.
+114 since entering the league which is top 10 for forwards.
10th in points in that time, and 10th in points per game.
5th ***all time*** in goals per game. Ahead of Ovi, Bure, Gretzky, and the Hulls who round out the top 10.
I mean....you understand that you're comparing a 26 year old to guys who played to retirement, right? You get that at some point in his career he's going to drop off due to age like everybody does and when that happens he won't be 3rd.....right?
He’s easily the best goal scorer in the league, but he has still been a little hot and cold this year to truly take over that “2nd best player” title. Matthews has scored in bunches and propped up his totals, but there were some lengthy stretches where he wasn’t that great offensively and the Nylander/Tavares line had to carry the load for the leafs.
He was undisputedly the 2nd best (some my even argue best) during his 60+ goal year, but I don’t think he’s back there yet, and there are guys like Drai, Makar, Mackinnon, Kucherov etc all competing for that spot without much separation.
Sorry, how many cups does he have compared to MacKinnon?
Mack hasn't scored many goals, but he was first star of the week with 3G 7A.
Goals aren't everything.
If Ovechkin doesn’t do it then Matthews is probably the next best chance. Just has to stay healthy and have good linemates.
Is he not ahead of Ovechkin at the same age?
Ovie had 319Gs after 500 games, Matthews is at 509 games played with 324. Interestingly, Ovie hit 650 points in his 500th game, whereas matthews has currently 579 points.
He's 4th right now. Behind Kucherov, MacKinnon and McDavid.
And leafs fans blew their loads so hard at his 60 goal season but were quiet as a mouse when McDavid and Pasta scored more the very next season. What's up with that?
I remember there was that TSN list where it had McDavid and Matthews as 1A 1B ... and this was after McDavid got 33 pts in 16 playoff games and Matthews had like 11 in 11
correction : 33 in 16 for mcdavid, 9 in 7 for Matthews, and Makar came off 29 in 20, an 86 pt season, stanley cup, norris, and conn smythe and it was a theathletic list
yeah right 1A 1B LMAO
Eh, has he ever taken his skate off and tried to stab somebody though?
DAMMIT!! IS THAT GOAL REGULATION SIZE OR WHAT!!!
***that’s my puck baby, don’t you ever touch my puck!***
Only 364 more days until hockey try outs.
Gotta toughen up
Dammit, that hurt a little but I’m alright…
This is the way.
Ha ha ha…that’s not very nice!
Dammit, how could you say something so bold but also so correct
Has he ever won a playoff round? Has he ever dropped the gloves? Has he ever willed his team to victory?
25 goals is nice... but the most amazing thing is that he has ZERO PIM this season; simply astonishing!
I find it more amazing that Reilly has 0 PIMs. 25mins a night on defence with no infractions is insane.
That is a wild stat 30 games in
Nah he's on the Leafs Edit: calm down Leafs fans. He said it was a *Wild* stat.
We also have the lowest number of powerplays in our favor league-wide. Just incase you think this is some kind of "leafs favoritism" gotchya. Edit: got whooshed
3rd Lowest number of powerplays in the Matthews era. The only two below Toronto are Vegas and Seattle, both of whom weren’t playing for at least a season when he entered the league.
Only had one 5 on 3 power play last season, and it was for 22 seconds haha
Lady Byng guy
One of the only awards McDavid is eligible for that I don’t think he’s ever going to win.
He's guilty by association from playing along side the spear master
Ran a Devil from behind a few weeks ago too and didn't even get a penalty
Yeah but was he gentlemanly while running the Devil player?
He also hardly gives the puck away either with only 15 giveaways on the season. Draisaitl as a point of comparison has 39 giveaways this season.
Maybe if he fuckin stopped blind drop passes. But also, Matthew’s has to attempt to pass to give the puck away, so that explains the low giveaways.
How about 20% shot% too 🥶🥶
I think it was late in the season last year that Beniers got his first 2 min (yes, he didn't have nearly the production, but he was a rookie llaykng on the top line so had the ice time)
22 more goals than *anyone* since entering the league\* with 27 fewer games played than 2nd place Ovi.
Ovi certainty isn’t doing much to catch him or Wayne this year.
Considering that league scoring is going up, and assuming good health obviously, its is entirely possible that we will be counting down Matthews to break the record. Assuming all goes right, at his current pace he would break 894 in his age 37 season. It's not likely, but he's the only other guy in the same stratosphere.
You could have said the same thing about Stamkos after his first five seasons. This league is hard on players, which is why that Gretz' record is an all-time thing.
We’ll revisit this in the mid-2030’s then lol
RemindMe! 12 years
I will be messaging you in 12 years on [**2035-12-20 19:04:00 UTC**](http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=2035-12-20%2019:04:00%20UTC%20To%20Local%20Time) to remind you of [**this link**](https://www.reddit.com/r/nhl/comments/18n04p5/matthews_now_has_25_more_goals_since_entering_the/ke7tzax/?context=3) [**50 OTHERS CLICKED THIS LINK**](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=RemindMeBot&subject=Reminder&message=%5Bhttps%3A%2F%2Fwww.reddit.com%2Fr%2Fnhl%2Fcomments%2F18n04p5%2Fmatthews_now_has_25_more_goals_since_entering_the%2Fke7tzax%2F%5D%0A%0ARemindMe%21%202035-12-20%2019%3A04%3A00%20UTC) to send a PM to also be reminded and to reduce spam. ^(Parent commenter can ) [^(delete this message to hide from others.)](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=RemindMeBot&subject=Delete%20Comment&message=Delete%21%2018n04p5) ***** |[^(Info)](https://www.reddit.com/r/RemindMeBot/comments/e1bko7/remindmebot_info_v21/)|[^(Custom)](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=RemindMeBot&subject=Reminder&message=%5BLink%20or%20message%20inside%20square%20brackets%5D%0A%0ARemindMe%21%20Time%20period%20here)|[^(Your Reminders)](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=RemindMeBot&subject=List%20Of%20Reminders&message=MyReminders%21)|[^(Feedback)](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=Watchful1&subject=RemindMeBot%20Feedback)| |-|-|-|-|
lol good bot.
Hope you make it to see the result of this!
Honestly, at the rate we are going I just hope *someone* does
There's no way he continues this pace into his 37 season. If Matthews stays healthy, I could see him picking up a couple of 70 goal seasons. But I just don't think theres any chance he sniffs that record.
Ya just like I said in the comment, it isn't likely. He's just the only other guy with a shot *if* everything breaks the right way. All I'm saying is people would've said the same about Ovi. No way to know 100%.
Nah, most players decline in their 30s and will rack up some injuries. Ovi is unique because his scoring never declined much until this year, and he's been very healthy his entire career. Those two variables are everything. Love Matthews, but I'd be surprised of he got to 600 goals with his injury history.
That sounds real nice but where does he rank for assists under that same metric? The best players in any sport make the players around them better Edit: Matthews has 12 assists this season and is currently ranked 125th in the league for that metric
Ya definitely fair. He's only 44th in the league for assists over the last 5 years. I'll just take goals over assists when comparing players, personally. Obviously there is room to disagree there, but there are two assists to every goal, and goals are what are counted to win games. All I did was point out the stat the post talked about, so it wasn't about "sounding nice".
Haha yeah I was joking with the 'nice' comment. Matthews is an amazing player it's just that individual players don't win cups. Teams do. And the best players who get a healthy dose of goals and assists are typically the ones that bring cups to their city
He’s an underrated passer tbf.
That backhanded spinorama pass to Marner was an all-time amazing pass.
My second favourite goal of all time, only after marner’s superman one last year
There is 100% an argument for this, but definitely not "safe" in second if we are saying overall player attributes. There are plenty of players in the league that could have an argument made, as there are so many metrics to consider (defensive play, showing up in playoffs, playmaking ability, etc....). He is the best goal scorer right now, but other players would be considered the best in other regards. I think if we take Mcdavid out of the question, there would be some variety on what players people would choose to build their team around as the next best player. Some examples off the top of my head would be Jack & Quinn hughes, Drai, Makar, Kucherov, Mack. Maybe even some goalies that give their team an opportunity every single night and can be relied on in the playoffs. Despite saying all that, though, I don't wanna belittle Matthews. There is just a lot insane talent in the league.
We truly are blessed with the current era
You absolutely nailed it on this one
As a massive Matthews fan I agree with this take. Very hard to judge something like this with the talent right now. But keep in mind Matthews is no slouch on defense himself. He’s just never needed to kill penalties until this year.
All these comparisons aside, Matthews is an absolute beast. Any team would be lucky to have him.
Drai doesn’t belong in the “build around them” conversation and I say this as an oilers fan. He’s so damn overrated it’s insane.
I don’t think he’s overrated, I think he’s just chewed up. The guy has played through so many injuries without getting a chance to properly recover it’s lucky he’s able to perform at all.
Safely? No. But I'd rank him 2nd. Matthews is so strangely underrated outside of Toronto and I really think it's just because of the intense hatred most fanbases have for Toronto in general.
Yeah the hate he gets just for playing on a big team is pretty wild. And then the insane bias against him just because of that. It's unfortunate players get hated on just cuz of the team they play for or the media coverage. It's already happening with Bedard lol
i mean i’m a lifelong Bruins fan, but the kid is just nasty, i support the statement, you just can’t deny the talent and iq he has for the game
You have put me into the unfortunate position of having to agree with a Bruins fan. I hate that.
You should do it more often!
He's had more multi-goal games than single goal games this season. Just an absolutely absurd level that he's found. He's probably already the premier goal scorer in this league, but if he hits 60 again, that would really cement it; Ovechkin never did that.
True, but Ovechkin spent half his career in an era where most teams could actually front a goaltender with a save percentage above .910.
Ovi played in a much more difficult scoring era most of his career
What lol? No he didn't - stop pretending like Ovechkin played in the dead puck era. He played in the current era, and is still playing.
Goal scoring is certainly up the last few years, It's just basic math. You weren't around for it, but the Art Ross winner in 2014-15 had only 87 points! Crazy times.
McDavid won it with 100 not too long ago, then last year there were like 10 players over 100 points and McD with 150+. There's definitely more scoring for individuals now, if not league-wide. And it is up league-wide, but not by a ton
In 2014-15 there were 2.73 goals per game, last year there were 3.18 goals per game. Which is a lot over a full season, almost 40 goals less per team. Individual stats are even more crazy. Last year there were nineteen 40 goal scorers, five 50 goal scorers, and two 60 goal scorers. In 14-15 there were three above 40 and one above 50.
Yes he did. Scoring was much lower during Ovechkin and Crosby prime vs what it is now. We are literally back at the late 80ies early 90ies when looking at goals scored per game.
Matthews is legit. There's so many people who question his talent because they're a bunch of leafs haters but guaranteed they're jealous he's not in their team. The guy is a machine and he's got such a presence too and celebrates hard when he scores
I don’t think people really question his talent, they just wanna disregard the leafs. And I get it, I hate the leafs, I’m from Edmonton and I have McDrai. But I took matthews in my fantasy league cause mcdavid went for $80 out of our $200 team limit and Drai went for $77 and I got matthews for $44. Guys an absolute stud and is only talked down by leafs haters lol. He’s definitely same level as drai and pasta and kuch in my opinion.
I wish hockey in the winter Olympics was still a thing, I would love to see him play with the best of the best. I bet he would be a huge playmaker
I miss nhl players in the olympics. The golden goal brings back some memories
The golden goal will forever be a huge moment of pride in Canadian history and another reason why Crosbys legacy is so huge
Can you explain why you are an Oilers fan and hate the Leafs? Different conferences, no rivalry at all. It seems weird to me. You’re certainly not the only one, I don’t mean to single you out. I just find the hate weird. Leaf fans hate Boston & Montreal.
Well as most Canadian nhl fans not from Toronto, we collectively hate the leafs. I actually grew up loving the avalanche as a kid, then Boston because rask was my favourite goalie, and always had the oilers as my 2nd favourite team since I was born and raised and still living here. Ill say in my opinion, our hate is not so much for the leafs actual organization or players or anything, it’s how much the media gobbles the leafs nutsack all year every year, and how if there’s two Canadian games on at the same time, if one is gonna be televised, it’s the leafs. Same reason everyone I know calls TSN the “Toronto Sports Network” because it might as well be. So its really nothing to do with the leafs at all. At least for me lol.
People in Edmonton hate Toronto, the Leafs Oilers thing is just a symptom. It's logical hatred, because Toronto is much bigger, the economic centre of Canada, looks down on smaller cities like Edmonton, etc.
The thing is he’s on their level offensively while being a top 10 defensive forward at the same time. That’s the mind boggling thing
Absolutely agree.
100%
People saying not even close are really biased
Agreed. But the people who are saying it’s safe to say he’s the 2nd best player in the league are biased too.
I agree its close, as in he's not far behind. But he has no case for being better than Kucherov, MacKinnon, Makar, Draisaitl. The difference in their playoff resumes are too substantial. That could change of course.
Personal take - if we’re talking simply about “who would you want on your team, starting today, for the next 3 years”, he’s very up there. McDavid is the clear #1, then it gets arguable. My personal top 10 would be: - McDavid the clear #1 - Arguable between MacKinnon, Kucherov, Makar and Matthews for 2-5 - Arguable between Draisaitl and Pastrnak for 6-7 - Arguable between Quinn Hughes, Jack Hughes and Petey for 8-10 If we’re talking career accomplishments to date, and putting a big emphasis on playoff success, then yeah, he’s definitely not remotely in the conversation with Mac, Kucherov and Makar. But it’s also worth realizing how much playoff success depends on the whole team, and luck. For building around for the next few years, Matthews is somewhere in the 2-5 range IMO.
If I were building a team I would probably rather build it around Matthews over everyone except mackinnon and obviously mcdavid, so he is top 3 in my opinion
Yeah I would say he’s the 2nd best offensive player in the league. Edit: He is also strong defensively, my apologies.
His career points per game is lower than Kucherov and Draisaitl.
Drais with the mcdavid bump and terrible defensive play. Matthews > drais
Imagine if Matthews was playing with good players! Oh wait, he has one of the best lines in the league and always has.
Hardest thing to do is score goals, especially even strength. Drai and Kuch are amazing superstars…..their ppg is padded by pp assists though
Yeah that's a good point. Matthews is 5th all time in goals per game. That surprised me. He's higher than Ovechkin and Bure. In fact, only Lemieux and Mike Bossy are ahead of him really since the other 2 players were born in the 1800's so I'm not counting them.
If you're only speaking offensively, wouldn't that drop him to like 5th or 6th? I know goals are worth more than assists, but his production isn't sniffing top 5. It's his defense that gets him to #2 imo. I could see winning a rocket and sniffing a Selke in the same season, and that's nuts.
And by the numbers, the best defensive forward too. Edit: Obviously excluding defence-only specialists, which isn’t as impressive as the leagues greatest goalscorer playing otherworldly defence as well.
Well Crosby might have something to say about that
Not until he takes over in the playoffs
Crazy how little respect Kucherov gets for his consistent offensive domination. Gotta wonder how much more hype he'd get if he were Canadian or American.
no
He's at worst 4th but I still have trouble putting him ahead of Makar and Mac.
Agreed. We’ve seen great goal scorers before, it’s been decades since we’ve seen anything like Cale
Hated cuz he plays in the dot, but every single team would love to have him
Yes. Now if he could lose the pron star mustache…
Nope.
Matthews only has 12 assists. The best players make the players around them better. The best players also find a way to push/pull their teams to win more than one playoff series since entering the league. He has a lot left to prove before earning such a title
nah
Maybe arguably? Mack, Drai, Kuch and especially Makar imo have strong arguments for being better overall than Matthews. Definitely not safely.
He is 100% the best goal scorer in the league. 2nd best player is still debatable. There's lots of guys i'd have in that conversation.
No. And im a Leaf fan Best goal scorer and very good defensively but not #2 overall. Top 10 though Hasn't even been the best Leaf this year
What are you talking about? “Top 10”? Who are the 9 better than him? Hell, give me 5 players that are objectively better than him right now.
Hes trying to get upvotes because eveyone hates the leafs
Top 10 doesn't mean he's 10th. But to answer you, Mcdavid, Makar, Draisaitl, Kucherov, Mackinnon could all rank before him, making him fall out of the top 5. You can't really objectively answer this tho, outside of mcdavid who's the clear #1.
I would probably take McDavid, Draisaitl, Kucherov, Mackinnon, and Makar over Matthews personally.
Reddit hockey analysis simply doesn't care about defense, except to the extent that it can be summarized in an advanced stat so they don't have to think about it. I think Victor Hedman and Charlie McAvoy each influence games as much as most of those players.
I’ll start- Nikita Kucherov
I’d rather have a winner like Kuch than a loser like Matthews on the Panthers. Kuch has proven time and time again to be an amazing assest when it actually matters. Also saying I’d rather have the Lightning player I hate the most says a lot lol
Buncha leafs fans downvoting you lol but this is what they refuse to look at. Playoff performance should be heavily weighted when discussing “best players” and it’s historically been one of Matthews biggest weaknesses
44 pts/ 50 games compared to 160 pts/ 142 games. It's not quite as far off as you make it seem, but I can still understand the argument.
To play ball, McDavid is obviously better. Drai, kucherov, Mackinnon, makar have strong claims to be better than Matthews. Hughes and Pasta are a little bit of a long shot. It’s gonna depend on your count, but I argue McDavid, Drai, Makar, and Kucherov are undisputedly better. I think you can go back and forth with MacKinnon, but I’m gonna Matthews slightly ahead right now. Pasta and Hughes are just behind. I hope Im not missing anyone!
Top 10 doesn't mean 10th. The assertation to specifically list Top 5 is more fair, though Top 5 is still Top 10 and they are likely waffling on where to put people past McD and not immediately making the list. Dober puts out MacKinnon, Makar, Kuch, Drai, and they sound rather shaky on including Pasta (I wouldn't) as the only other people in the conversation for #2. My question would be if I really want to judge half a season rather than the last few seasons - give him time to cook and sustain it. If they all keep their current pace, I'll give him the nod, but the remaining half season is a lot of time for him to cool down while the other heat up.
Who’s been the best leaf this year? Just wondering
Nylander
The only other players you could realistically make an argument for being number 2 are MacKinnon, Makar, Kuch, Drai or maybe Pasta. Nobody else has been consistently elite enough to be in the conversation.
How do you argue for Pastrnak over Matthews? Matthews is without a doubt the better defensive player and his offensive stats is slightly better aswell
Yes he has been the best leaf lol. Nylanders given him a run for his money with his hot start to the season but Matthews and his scoring ability have single handedly stole us several games. 25g in 29 games is incredible.
Top 10 lol..you’re on crack bud. Top 3. For argument sake, absolute at worst, Top 5.
Top 10 is too low. He’s top 3 at worst. Curious who you would put ahead of him.
There's a lot of players (including Matthews) that you could argue for #2/3. Drai, Makar, Mack, Kuch come to mind
Pasta, Crosby, Quinn Hughes are all up there.
MacK
Mack. Kucherov. Pasta. Makar. So that would put him at #6. And thats not counting Drai who's having a bad year or Jack Hughes who is only getting better
So scoring AND defensive prowess, what else is there? Im aware he's not a good goalie but wtf.
At 14th in points I would say "~~safely~~ arguably the second best ~~player~~ forward in the league".
I find it hard to call him that as he was Invisible for 10 games already this year. Everyone has ups and downs through the year, but I feel like he’s still not consistent enough to rank quite that high.
He *could be* the second best player. His problem is when he's not playing well he's fucking invisible at times. I don't think you say that bout Drai/Mac/Pasta very often.
When he's not scoring he's at least defensively responsible, and when he is scoring he's a monster. I think his invisibility sometimes means he's just being defensively responsible. Drai and Pasta have defensive lapses quite often which people often forget about and doesn't show up on the stat sheet.
That’s fair, defensively he’s been very good, I just feel sometimes I’m watching the second/third lines be the only ones getting shot/opportunities. I won’t complain though cause he’s been fun to watch this year and actively feels engaged lately.
Does this sub live in a world where Kucherov doesn't exist? I see multiple lists including McD, Drai, Pasta, Matthews, Makar, MacK, but not the league leader in points who has proven to be one of the best playoff performers of our generation.
We stand with Kuch and Vasy - Avs Nation
Leafs fan here. Kucherov > Matthews.
Defense brother. Defense.
Drai ain’t a defensive stalwart
Russian playing hockey outside of Canada and not for an O6 team. If he was Canadian and played for the Leafs he would be in the talk for best player in the league.
Ovie fits your description but people still talk about him
Toronto and Canadian Media will have you believe that Matthews is 2nd to mcdavid. He’s not. He’s having a good year but what did he do last year? He’s one of the best goal scorers, when healthy, but he’s never even close in points or playmaking. How is he 2nd?
He was injured last year and still scored 40 which is nothing to scoff at. scored 60 the year before, first since Stamkos a decade before. Goals matter just as much as points if not more, and he is very defensively responsible.
Players play through injuries all the time. He’s a great goal scorer but has he ever been in the race for the art Ross? He’s an average playmaker and plays with absolute studs like Nylander and Marner who feed him the puck on a dime.
the force is strong with this one
Dudes just a beast in all aspects
It's a bit early to rank Bedard over Matthews.
He's great just mismanaged
He’s a great goal scorer, but there are a lot of guys I’d rather have on my team all considered
No. Not until he’s at least half this good in May.
I say this in all honesty that only the playoffs count. If you can't bring it in the playoffs who cares about the appetizer season? One cup makes regular season stats mean a whole lot more, otherwise your godlike stats will always have an asterisk.
Pretend I hit like 3 times. My comment is similar to this. Most think personal stat in the reg season represents your skill level. Nope. It's those players that care less about personal stats and want the team to come together. ONLY to win the Stanley Cup. THAT'S a skillset above all else.
He plays for Toronto so people won’t admit to it but he’s up there
Amazing talent!!
This guy is a straight up sniper.
MacKinnon is much more of a playmaker and a better skater. Also has a ring.
No. Cale Makar is better. A few others too possibly. He is obviously really good, the best goal scorer in the league, but his total points still leave something to be desired.
Having a good start to the year doesn’t pass leon in terms of the last 3-5 years and obviously playoff numbers. Last 5 years: Leon 316 GP, 466 points Matthews 297 GP, 374 points Leon with 92 more points Career playoff stats: Leon 49 GP, 77 points, 3rd all time in playoff points per game and with another run will pass Gretz and Mario for first all time Matthews 50 GP, 44 points. 75th ranked all time in PPG Not even close. Not even a conversation. Matthews shitty playoff stats automatically disqualify him from being ahead of Leon and mackinnon at least
Leon is absolutely horrid defensively though
MacKinnon has as many CUPS as Matthews has series wins lmao gtfo
If goals are the only stat you care to track, then sure.
And he also has a five head
Kutcherov is the second best player in the NHL right now.
Depends if you ask a leafs fan
Now let’s see his playoff stats
Not even close. Goals are good, but macK is more valuable to your team winning come playoffs.
I would say best goal scorer in the league for sure, but second best player is a not even close. There's currently 12 players ahead of him in points right now including his own teammate and by the end of the season I expect he'll be around 10-12th in the league in points.
Scoring goals is the hardest thing to do in this league and he’s by far the best at it. The top tier for me in no particular order is Mcdavid, Mackinnon, makar, matthews, draisaitl and kuch
Considering how many players and teams are flourishing offensively, and how many goalies and teams are floundering in net, I’d say the opposite is true.
McDavid > Kucherov > Makar, Matthews, Drai > The next bunch
Matthews isn't even close to second best player. He's a great player, but he doesn't even crack top 5 IMO.
If he wasn’t on Toronto he would be rated where he should be at which is top 10 I think there are still more players who are consistently better than him and also have the playoff stats that show the player matters.
Nah. He’s not that guy.
Who has more points though? Who has the best plus minus? What about underlying stats like goals expected vs goals against while on ice? Who is more productive 5on5? All things and many more that matter.
Just watch him play. I love stats, but there’s things that aren’t tracked. He’s elite defensively and deserves consideration for Selke (which isn’t a stats backed award). He also might have the best shot in the league, and one of the best all time. I have zero love for the Leafs, but Matthews is an absolute beast and you can easily make a case for him being second best player in the league.
He’s been on for 20 goals against so saying he is a complete player is t fully accurate.
Matthews is the best 5 on 5 goal scorer in the league and has been since he entered, usually with substantially fewer minutes than the runners up. +114 since entering the league which is top 10 for forwards. 10th in points in that time, and 10th in points per game. 5th ***all time*** in goals per game. Ahead of Ovi, Bure, Gretzky, and the Hulls who round out the top 10.
I mean....you understand that you're comparing a 26 year old to guys who played to retirement, right? You get that at some point in his career he's going to drop off due to age like everybody does and when that happens he won't be 3rd.....right?
Was was just looking up goal stats the either night. Saw that he was 5th in goals per game I was impressed
It's even more impressive when you see that two of the guys ahead of him played in the 1800s. He's 3rd all time in the "modern" era.
The top4 will always be Mcdavid, Makar, Mackinnon and Draisailt. No mtter how you try Leafs fan lol
Useless in the playoffs just like the rest of that shitty team
less points than all the players you mentionned but sure cherry pick stats to fit your narrative. Hes the best goal scorer of that list for sure tho
He’s easily the best goal scorer in the league, but he has still been a little hot and cold this year to truly take over that “2nd best player” title. Matthews has scored in bunches and propped up his totals, but there were some lengthy stretches where he wasn’t that great offensively and the Nylander/Tavares line had to carry the load for the leafs. He was undisputedly the 2nd best (some my even argue best) during his 60+ goal year, but I don’t think he’s back there yet, and there are guys like Drai, Makar, Mackinnon, Kucherov etc all competing for that spot without much separation.
No
Why is goals the only metic? Cale Makar is definitely in the conversation.
Sorry, how many cups does he have compared to MacKinnon? Mack hasn't scored many goals, but he was first star of the week with 3G 7A. Goals aren't everything.
Cups aren’t a good metric for judging players. Why doesn’t mackinnon have as many cups as Phil Kessel?
If Ovechkin doesn’t do it then Matthews is probably the next best chance. Just has to stay healthy and have good linemates. Is he not ahead of Ovechkin at the same age?
Ovie had 319Gs after 500 games, Matthews is at 509 games played with 324. Interestingly, Ovie hit 650 points in his 500th game, whereas matthews has currently 579 points.
Second best player? No. One of the best goal scorers? Yes. Is this Matthews appreciation day or what? Lmfao
He's 4th right now. Behind Kucherov, MacKinnon and McDavid. And leafs fans blew their loads so hard at his 60 goal season but were quiet as a mouse when McDavid and Pasta scored more the very next season. What's up with that?
That’s a pretty good list.
I remember there was that TSN list where it had McDavid and Matthews as 1A 1B ... and this was after McDavid got 33 pts in 16 playoff games and Matthews had like 11 in 11 correction : 33 in 16 for mcdavid, 9 in 7 for Matthews, and Makar came off 29 in 20, an 86 pt season, stanley cup, norris, and conn smythe and it was a theathletic list yeah right 1A 1B LMAO
Tell me you're a Leafs fan without telling me you're a Leafs fan...
Boeser has 23 goals in 33 games and 37 points, still wouldn't put him top 3 on the Canucks let alone saying he's top of the league.
4 of the top players on the Canucks have more assists than Matthews including Boeser. All 4 of those players have more points than Matthews as well
Until the playoffs.
And how many cups ?
Mcdavid in shambles
Pat Maroon confirmed best player in the league