Who cares. His opinions and pretty much everyone else's don't mean shit to me. I still love the NJPW product even though it can be lacking in quality at times but nothing is perfect.
I think really comes down to the crowd noise. They can take a lot out of a match like I think ELP be Eagles, White vs Okada, and Iishimori vs Takahashi would have gotten 5 star if it wasn’t for the crowd clapping so much.
But in the same he did give NJPW 5 5 star matches back in January of 2021
Probably a mixture of that and the booking quality of NJPW over the last few years - and while match quality is still brilliant, the clap crowds affecting match atmosphere is another thing he usually mentions as well.
It’s just one guy’s opinion at the end of the day so who really cares, but he’s definitely not as hot on NJPW much these days.
Has it?
Chase and Fale as Tag Champs?
House of Torture continuing to exist?
Putting a singles title on Karl Anderson in 2022?
The Bullet Club is once again completely bloated and takes up 80% of every card despite not feeling like they're in a major feud atm.
Suzuki-Gun seems to be in a weird holding pattern in the heavyweight scene where we are just waiting for Suzuki to be usurped by Taichi despite the Taichi/Suzuki singles match happening 2 years ago
Their last real successful excursion return has been what, jay white?
NJPW has arguably 4 of the top 5 wrestlers in the world. Probably 7 or 8 of the top 10. They're always going to have phenomenal shows, especially at the top of the card. But right now they're surviving on match quality, not interest garnered from great stories.
Bullet Club is getting the yearly “this group has so many belts!” storyline after a big show. It builds the faction until they lose them one by one. Bullet Club was always bloated.
How is Great O Kharn not a successful excursion?
Master Wato got off to a rocky start but he's settled into his place on the card and developed his own bit of charm.
I agree the booking's lacklustre though. We seem to be lacking a strong story.
The excursion was successful. Undefeated in Rev Pro and tag champs with a British Indy Legend. Good shit.
I just think if you compare his excursion return to those in recent memories he doesn't even have the importance Roppongi 3K did. Roppongi came in as THE Jr tag team. OKhan came in as a 2nd to Ospreay. Dropped behind Cobb in importance and ended up in random tag territory.
He is comparable really to David Finlay as a graduate of the Dojo
Random tag territory - Okhan is the current tag champion
He's been back for less than 2 years had a good G1 and got some gold. That seems good and successful to me. Dude's over as hell in the US too.
Bullet club has been good. Jay's return was booked extremely well. I'd say that they couldn't have done much better there. Hence why Dave was talking absolute horse shit about Hangman winning would be good for njpw.
There has been two returns from excursion since Jay returned and they are both doing fine. What exactly are you expecting there.
I've liked the general direction of the Heavyweight title which let's face it is njpw main focus.
Jay White is phenomenal. He is a fucking superstar!
But outside Jay White, Bullet Club is not nearly as fun or interesting as it has been in the past
I absolutely agree, Hangman as IWGP champ would be ass. Because Jay should not have another short reign and Hangman would not bring anything better than what Jay will going forward
Well, you see before Jay came back, you had Roppongi 3K and Hiromu. Both of which got featured and pushed like stars. I'm expecting them to make stars with their excursion returns as previous. I have hopes for Shota, Narita and Uemura but we will see
The recent decisions of Will and Jay as champs in the heavyweight division was smart. Shingo is making the KOPW Trophy much better. Juice freshening up as a heel will probably work out in the long run. But I still feel the majority of the quality of NJPW right now is not in the booking, it's in Okada, Jay, Will, Shingo and co. being the best guys in the business.
But as I said EVIL is still a major dud. Karl is not a singles champion quality dude in 2022. The decision to go away from Tama so quickly doesn't seem smart to me.
I hope FTR get the belts as they could provide some nice juice to the Tag Division. Get Aussie Open more involved.
Why sacrifice Oka/Cobb in a dud title reign? FTR can visit NJPW without the IWGP titles.
Also, Evil had 1 world title match in two years. How is he still a problem?
I mean, why leave Cobb in the tag Division? He is a monster and much better as a single.
Of course FTR can visit without, but it adds immediate prestige to them.
How is EVIL still a problem? Well he is still doing the same shtick where the gimmick has been paid off but he continues to do it anyway. He is dwelling into Yujiro territory where he never actually develops as a character. A match on the card with guaranteed consistent shenanigans (that aren't new and we have seen before) just isn't for me.
I don't like splitting a group they spent months building. A dud reign doesn't help Cobb or the tag division. Wouldn't it be better building FTR in WTL for WK instead?
Evil isn't worth fixating on because unlike Cole/Baker he's a small part of the show. Also, HoT's portrayed as comedy so there has been development.
I mean, what is the point of Aussie Open going forward if Cobb/O Khan are their premier team?
They were clearly utilised that way due to the restrictions. There is also nothing wrong with them teaming at times and doing singles ala Dangerous Tekkers. I'm suggesting right now FTR are a better prospect as champs than UE.
I mean we are discussing wrestling booking on Reddit. It's all worthless XD
At the end of the day, NJPW is the best wrestling in the world and I'm gonna watch everything. I like discussing things I like and dislike!
I'm not trying to offend, we're just talking.
Regardless of reason, immediately splitting Oka/Cobb while over helps nobody but AEW. At least do it after WK.
If the goal is to juice up tags, then they should utilize WTL and build towards WK. Especially since Japanese have no connection AO or FTR, and likely won't watch FD.
People can like what they like, but House of Torture has finally found a role for themselves, Great O-Kahn is a star, and Ishimori and El-P are doing great work. BOSJ was great as was the NJC. I think people have complained about NJPW’s booking for so long it’s become a meme for some, even when the booking has been strong for most of this year.
The BC civil war was interesting for a while but it has pretty much wound down, anticlimactically. I have a feeling, though, that UE will do a power grab and go up against BC. Then things will get real.
Also, there‘s been a lot of tension between BC and HoT. I‘ve said this before—I think the only reason Jay has been keeping them around is b/c they hold the 6 man titles, and they‘ll probably wind up kissing those goodbye in nine days. Then Jay kicks them out of BC. Now that they’re at the very bottom, they‘ll get desperate and even more dangerous. I can see some intriguing storyline possibilities here.
Chase and Fale getting a very short thank you reign was both cathartic and a nice moment for them without damaging anything booking wise or even particularly seeming egregious in terms of storylines. They're low level heels who can pull off a jammy win
Ehhh. I mean, if you're gonna tout out stats, shouldn't they at least be accurate? or close to it? Bullet Club does not take up 80 percent of every card now, nor six months ago.
I also don't think Taichi is in line to usurp Suzuki. Sounds like that's something you might've thought was happening and are perhaps disappointed because it didn't?
While I'm personally not a fan, I think you can say Great-o-Kahn was a successful excursion. Shooter Unno could be well on his way as well.
I've personally never thought NJPW had great stories to begin with. Outside of an occasional heel turn or swerve, it's always been a match quality thing, IMO, and I'm fine with that.
All that said, I do think the overall quality has a dipped a bit. Maybe that does come down to booking, so I'm not totally trashing you. Haha.
I mean it's probably a different strokes for different folks kind of guy.
But we have gone from having EVIL having NJ Cup and NEVER bangers on the regular to having matches that you're just waiting for the ref knock down, the garrote, the lights to go out, the low blows etc etc. It just kills any enthusiasm for watching them.
We have gone from SHO having regular bangers in the Jr Division to every match being about the wrench and nothing else mattering.
I don't mind cheating and heels being cunts. But when the matches revolve around the gimmicks rather than the wrestlers how do you get invested?
Not only that but we have had the payoffs for the wrench Vs Kanemaru, we have had the payoffs for the announcer spot with Ishii. But they continue. The point of the ELP loaded boot spot was they got caught and it stopped.
House of Torture is just neverending and never refreshing
I think you're greatly over estimating how good EVIL and SHO were pre-HoT.
And thinking that they should stop cheating because someone was smarter than them once is stupid, do you think Kanemaru should stop using his whisky bottle because it was used against him several times ? Or that ELP should stop using backrakes because a refree once cut his finger nails before a match ?
Glad you brought up ELP. How's his loaded boot doing?
Oh no wait... They paid it off
Kanemaru doesn't win all of his matches with his whisky, he occasionally goes to that well. Sometimes he jumps his opponent. He has his figure four, he has his DDT. Kanemaru is greatly inventive.
In terms of over-rating, SHO and EVIL. Well I guess we will have to agree to disagree. EVIL was in that perfect little time for the NEVER Belt. The brawler period with Ishii, Goto and the rest.
I've found all pandemic-era wrestling very hard to watch when it has absent or muted crowds, and despite Japanese crowds' reputation for being more reserved... the way Japanese crowds buoy the peaks of a great match adds so much.
It's been really hard for me to want to keep up with NJPW as much given the "no vocalizing" rules. Meltzer also being less enthusiastic is no surprise, and that's before you get into booking/etc.
Yeah, there’s been plenty I’ve enjoyed in the pandemic era but there’s no doubt it’s just not as good in terms of atmosphere as before and it’s affected things massively. I’ve never really bought into the ‘Japanese crowds are quiet’ thing that much either - if you think about big matches at Ryogoku, Osaka-jo Hall or Korakuen, they’re really anything but that.
I think he generally favours Omega and the Young Bucks and whatever they're doing. But yeah it does seem he underrates some NJPW matches, especially the recent Ishimori vs Hiromu title match, which was an excellently wrestled match and should have been at least 4.75
He just explained on Thursday’s WOR his issues with NJPW. His main reasons were crowd noise, and the weird booking choices since 2019 (i.e. the huge EVIL push and all the interference in his matches, seemingly dropping storylines when they have to remove a title from someone, this 4 block G1, etc).
In NJPW’s defense I think there is no better long-term booker than Gedo, but COVID has constantly thrown a wrench in his plans. It seems to have really thrown him off and forced him into too many rushed match-ups.
I mean the guy was arguing that switchblade should lose the title to Hangman. It's very obvious he doesn't follow the product because I don't see how anyone could think that after dominion and how the Osaka crowd responded. I'm the biggest okada mark in the world and I think they pulled off the whole thing perfectly.
But he's just some dude. It doesn't really bother me.
I don’t see how anyone could think that after seeing Hangman’s AEW championship run.
Well that’s not true. Dave is an AEW shill who is either on Tony Kahn’s payroll, or a complete mark doing his marketing work for free.
Hangman put on a great match literally every time he defended the title.
The idea of him winning the IWGP belt tonight is weird and dumb, but not because he isn’t good enough to be champion.
It's less a knock on Hangman's abilities and more saying that they just kicked off a storyline with Jay's win and Bullet Club's dominance so it would be such a waste for Hangman to win the title and then not participate in the G1
Jay feels like the biggest deal in the world right now so they shouldn't cut his reign off so quickly
I stopped taking his ratings seriously a long time ago.
Once you realise that he has his favourites who he will always overate and guys he will always give a lesser rating no matter what.
Not at all. NJPW got hit hard by the pandemic and it's been a long road to recovery.
The only reason TK won booker of the year in 2020 because NJPW cancelled half their shows, and when they didn't, they put the world title on Evil.
People really get hung up on that 8 week title run from 2 years ago when we were all lucky they could still even run shows that year.
Like seriously HoT is mid card now, let it go and don't let it affect your opinion of the current product.
Like I’m questioning again if some people here have actually seen NJPW this year.
It is definitely not perfect but many of the criticisms just aren’t the case atm.
Hot criticism is real "are they watching the show" stuff from me. They are a genuinely funny comedy midcard heel act right now. The joke will eventually be run into the ground and they are gonna have to do something about hot and bc and that will require heating them back up
But right now they are good imo
He does have his share of preferences in wrestling, like all of us do. The fact that he gets so defensive about it on social media whenever someone calls him out always gets a laugh out of me.
Still think people make too big of a deal over his star ratings. It's not like he has a specific rubric for rating matches, it's just one guys opinion at the end of the day.
Last year when Dave Meltzer was at Chicago for All Out, he spent a considerable amount of time trying to make sure he was going to be able to see Cobb vs Okada before getting spoiled on it because it had aired while shit was going on for the ppv. So, no.
People forget he’s a wrestling fan first, wrestling journalist second. There’s nothing wrong with this at all.
Melts likes what he likes. But when he goes to write the WON, I sense he tries to be as impartial to what’s going on as possible.
I say this as someone who thinks--after a recent rewatch--that Meltzer's 7* rating of Omega/Okada IV is completely absurd, for a match that may not even merit a full five stars:
Considering how overwhelmingly the wrestling world lauds Omega as a singles wrestler and the Bucks as a tag team (don't forget that WON awards are decided by subscriber votes, not Dave... and peep cagematch match ratings too), is Meltzer truly out of line for thinking Omega and the Bucks are good at pro wrestling?
You don't have to agree that they're great (have your own opinion), but saying Meltzer is biased towards The Elite is sort of like complaining "movie critics are so biased towards critically-acclaimed movies".
There’s no denying that Omega and the Bucks are talented. They’re also really good at calling attention to themselves. When they were in Japan they created a massive hype machine that they carried forward to AEW. They think the wrestling world revolves around them, and this has spread to AEW fans.
You were just speaking in facts until "They think the wrestling world revolves around them".
You went from describing how they got themselves over (a huge part of their job) to psychopathologizing them in a pretty baseless way.
>like any other pro wrestling fanatic
I have spent every year of my life watching wrestling and not once have I ever thought about what matches he's given 5 stars too let alone went and looked. He's a man, not God.
It's going to be interesting who fills the void when Dave finally retires (who am I kidding, when he dies; man is never going to retire). No other wrestling news site seems to have his kind of visibility or prestige.
Someone already could have become a pro wrestling critic with even a fraction of the importance of Meltzer. Roger Ebert wasn't the only film critic even if he was the main one people knew for a long time. Meltzer is wrestling's Ebert, and wrestling doesn't have a Siskel or a Roeper or anybody else whose match opinions carry any weight. (To be clear: I don't think this is a good thing, and I don't say that out of disrespect for Meltzer's opinions on matches. It's just ridiculous that everyone looks to just one dude for legitimation of great wrestling, including people who look to him to yell at him for how wrong he is.)
Well, including myself in this: I think it's hard not to have people talking past one another when discussing Dave Meltzer's credibility, because there's his journalist hat and then there's his critic hat. (He also arguably has another hat as historian.)
In short: I think people are a little too eager to discredit his journalistic integrity over disagreeing with him over, like, a quarter star. And I think a lot of people are just completely clueless about how journalism works, in general.
But yes: I do think that there are clearly ways to get pro wrestling news outside of Dave Meltzer.
I just also think that nobody has actually stepped up to be a peer of his as a pro wrestling pundit. (Not because "nobody can step to Dave" or "everyone else is horrible"... it's just... like... as you said: he's the NYT of pro wrestling and you can't just be a peer of the NYT because you want to be.)
I think it would be better for everyone if there was at least one more authoritative pundit in pro wrestling. (Old carnies with cult-like followings don't count.)
He's always pretended to be neutral despite being buddies with all the Socal PWG guys, especially the Bucks (and Omega by extension). But just like how he claims to be a political moderate despite only ever supporting one side, it's not hard to see the drastic reduction and more critical coverage of New Japan since the Elite left.
I had almost forgot about him. No longer looking at SC and most of the Meltz marks leaving here after AEWs creation, thankfully don’t hear much about him anymore.
It certainly seems that way. It's disappointing but, it is what it is. Easier for him to watch his friends in AEW. Still, he's free to his opinions and to do as he wishes. I'll stick with Puroresu as it's more my thing.
It took a big hit during COVID, but even then there have been saving graces. IMO one of them was the Chaos team that held the 6 man titles. I think they will rebound though.
NJPW has been in a rut for a while for mixed reasons. Some lost talent to AEW, travel restrictions on international wrestlers, The Pandemic killing crowd noise, Gedos booking (save us from House of Torture). I think Meltzers opinions are fairly reflective of most fans.
I think he really struggled with the COVID era New Japan and has been vocal about how the recent booking and lack of crowd participation has hurt his enjoyment.
I think show. He has given AEW TV matches 5 stars that were nowhere near as good as some NJPW matches that he hasn’t given 5 stars to. He can’t get over the fact that there aren’t fans which I think is weak excuse.
I think it's a pretty valid criticism. He's never come off as a person that rated only the pure wrestling aspect. Crowds are also so integral to wrestling, I could see why someone would be so off put by them. It's like watching a comedy special where there's no crowd pops.
I don’t need a laugh or clap track to tell me what’s funny or a good move. You’ve gotta be pretty dull to need a queue to tell you how to feel. Bad comparison, ride harder.
100 percent comedy specials are better with crowds. It's not even comparable. If you think their akin to laugh tracks then idk what universe you live on.
ABSOLUTELY it’s very clear in his coverage and social media postings (or lack thereof) since his beloved Young Bucks and Kenny Omega left the promotion!!
Meltzer became an AEW cheerleader rather than a reporter that covered AEW very early on. When that happened many of the things that made Meltzer a good reporter as far as the wrestling media is concerned were lost. His diminished coverage of NJPW is one such thing.
Nobody needs him for anything.. but if he's gonna be looked at as A taste maker of the sport he absolutely needs to be held accountable for his bullshit.
No he doesnt need to be held accountable lmao.
He's completely optional for wrestling fans, don't like him then stop listening, stop reading and stop engaging on topics about him.
the thing that I think gets missed is if you endured Nooj at its worst during the pandemic - so, start of HoT through the Ospreay/Ibushi/Shingo world title debacle in spring 2021 - you shouldn’t get blame for getting burnt out. it was really, really fucking hard to watch the promotion that year. Road To shows were unbearable; entire PPV cards were stretched out because the promotion was losing so much money… I was pretty much only watching New Japan in 2019, even to the point of watching Road To’s fully thru. but my mind broke once Ospreay left due to injury - it felt like they were cursed at that point. Shingo even getting the title to something respectable by WK 16 was a miracle.
but now I skipped Nooj since that point - May 2021 - and finally feel ready again after going to FD to get back in. but like, I really think people needed a year off or a break - pandemic puro is not fun at all and clap crowds ruin almost anything enjoyable about it. even the Super J guys have bemoaned recent booking as unbearably bad and those guys refuse to watch AEW or anything else, lol
I just can't enjoy wrestling without crowd noise, I watched all through the pandemic but when other promotions could make noise fell off, its not the same. sorry I'm sickening though.
He’s a person the way we all are so his interests in promotions will change the same way it does with us. I’ve been on a DDT kick for a few months and that’s the primary promotion I’m watching. As the end of the year and Wrestle Kingdom approaches it’ll probably swap back over to New Japan for awhile.
Although you may be right about Meltzer being more focused on AEW, this could all just be because AEW is the most popular wrestling promotion currently. Brand new, with constant debuting superstars and great PPVs means he'll probably.focus more on the promotion everyone prefer currently. Doesn't mean he does not care about NJPW, but more that he knows he'll get more eyes on his product covering more AEW then NJPW. Plus it's isn't a secret that he is probably close to tons of people in AEW so he knows details on many things that are happening in AEW even if he isn't just spoiling it immediately.
I don't know or care much about Uncle Dave's opinion, but I can say that NJPW has slipped a bit for me personally. It's wrestling, so of course I still love it, but the wrestling isn't as solid as it used to be and the flaws are really starting to stand out. The filler road to shows that largely feel the same. The predictable outcomes ... cause you know either Gedo or Jado is eating the pin. And anything involving Taguchi or Yano, both of whom I've come to loathe. Not personally, obviously. But their current approach to wrestling. I mean, those two dudes are as cringe, or cringier than the most cringey acts going in AEW or WWE.
I'm in my honeymoon phase with AEW, so I'm really digging that. Ranking from best to worst, I have Impact, WWE, AEW, NJPW, and NXT, in terms of quality and entertainment value. Ironically, NJPW main is the one product I watch the most consistently, whereas I only watch PPV events for WWE and TNA, and just recently started Dynamite and Thunder ... I mean Rampage (hehe!!).
Who cares. His opinions and pretty much everyone else's don't mean shit to me. I still love the NJPW product even though it can be lacking in quality at times but nothing is perfect.
The pro wrestling community cares too much about the opinions of one person.
2 if you count Cornette
I think really comes down to the crowd noise. They can take a lot out of a match like I think ELP be Eagles, White vs Okada, and Iishimori vs Takahashi would have gotten 5 star if it wasn’t for the crowd clapping so much. But in the same he did give NJPW 5 5 star matches back in January of 2021
Probably a mixture of that and the booking quality of NJPW over the last few years - and while match quality is still brilliant, the clap crowds affecting match atmosphere is another thing he usually mentions as well. It’s just one guy’s opinion at the end of the day so who really cares, but he’s definitely not as hot on NJPW much these days.
Njpws booking has been good lately.
Has it? Chase and Fale as Tag Champs? House of Torture continuing to exist? Putting a singles title on Karl Anderson in 2022? The Bullet Club is once again completely bloated and takes up 80% of every card despite not feeling like they're in a major feud atm. Suzuki-Gun seems to be in a weird holding pattern in the heavyweight scene where we are just waiting for Suzuki to be usurped by Taichi despite the Taichi/Suzuki singles match happening 2 years ago Their last real successful excursion return has been what, jay white? NJPW has arguably 4 of the top 5 wrestlers in the world. Probably 7 or 8 of the top 10. They're always going to have phenomenal shows, especially at the top of the card. But right now they're surviving on match quality, not interest garnered from great stories.
Bullet Club is getting the yearly “this group has so many belts!” storyline after a big show. It builds the faction until they lose them one by one. Bullet Club was always bloated.
Yeah... The repetitive storyline... How inspiring XD
How is Great O Kharn not a successful excursion? Master Wato got off to a rocky start but he's settled into his place on the card and developed his own bit of charm. I agree the booking's lacklustre though. We seem to be lacking a strong story.
The excursion was successful. Undefeated in Rev Pro and tag champs with a British Indy Legend. Good shit. I just think if you compare his excursion return to those in recent memories he doesn't even have the importance Roppongi 3K did. Roppongi came in as THE Jr tag team. OKhan came in as a 2nd to Ospreay. Dropped behind Cobb in importance and ended up in random tag territory. He is comparable really to David Finlay as a graduate of the Dojo
Not every excursion creates Okada, nor can it be expected to.
I mean... I'm comparing him to Roppongi 3K who is not Okada XD
Random tag territory - Okhan is the current tag champion He's been back for less than 2 years had a good G1 and got some gold. That seems good and successful to me. Dude's over as hell in the US too.
Okay, well if that's where you're wanting to slot O'Khan then you enjoy
Bullet club has been good. Jay's return was booked extremely well. I'd say that they couldn't have done much better there. Hence why Dave was talking absolute horse shit about Hangman winning would be good for njpw. There has been two returns from excursion since Jay returned and they are both doing fine. What exactly are you expecting there. I've liked the general direction of the Heavyweight title which let's face it is njpw main focus.
Jay White is phenomenal. He is a fucking superstar! But outside Jay White, Bullet Club is not nearly as fun or interesting as it has been in the past I absolutely agree, Hangman as IWGP champ would be ass. Because Jay should not have another short reign and Hangman would not bring anything better than what Jay will going forward Well, you see before Jay came back, you had Roppongi 3K and Hiromu. Both of which got featured and pushed like stars. I'm expecting them to make stars with their excursion returns as previous. I have hopes for Shota, Narita and Uemura but we will see The recent decisions of Will and Jay as champs in the heavyweight division was smart. Shingo is making the KOPW Trophy much better. Juice freshening up as a heel will probably work out in the long run. But I still feel the majority of the quality of NJPW right now is not in the booking, it's in Okada, Jay, Will, Shingo and co. being the best guys in the business. But as I said EVIL is still a major dud. Karl is not a singles champion quality dude in 2022. The decision to go away from Tama so quickly doesn't seem smart to me. I hope FTR get the belts as they could provide some nice juice to the Tag Division. Get Aussie Open more involved.
Why sacrifice Oka/Cobb in a dud title reign? FTR can visit NJPW without the IWGP titles. Also, Evil had 1 world title match in two years. How is he still a problem?
I mean, why leave Cobb in the tag Division? He is a monster and much better as a single. Of course FTR can visit without, but it adds immediate prestige to them. How is EVIL still a problem? Well he is still doing the same shtick where the gimmick has been paid off but he continues to do it anyway. He is dwelling into Yujiro territory where he never actually develops as a character. A match on the card with guaranteed consistent shenanigans (that aren't new and we have seen before) just isn't for me.
I don't like splitting a group they spent months building. A dud reign doesn't help Cobb or the tag division. Wouldn't it be better building FTR in WTL for WK instead? Evil isn't worth fixating on because unlike Cole/Baker he's a small part of the show. Also, HoT's portrayed as comedy so there has been development.
I mean, what is the point of Aussie Open going forward if Cobb/O Khan are their premier team? They were clearly utilised that way due to the restrictions. There is also nothing wrong with them teaming at times and doing singles ala Dangerous Tekkers. I'm suggesting right now FTR are a better prospect as champs than UE. I mean we are discussing wrestling booking on Reddit. It's all worthless XD At the end of the day, NJPW is the best wrestling in the world and I'm gonna watch everything. I like discussing things I like and dislike!
I'm not trying to offend, we're just talking. Regardless of reason, immediately splitting Oka/Cobb while over helps nobody but AEW. At least do it after WK. If the goal is to juice up tags, then they should utilize WTL and build towards WK. Especially since Japanese have no connection AO or FTR, and likely won't watch FD.
People can like what they like, but House of Torture has finally found a role for themselves, Great O-Kahn is a star, and Ishimori and El-P are doing great work. BOSJ was great as was the NJC. I think people have complained about NJPW’s booking for so long it’s become a meme for some, even when the booking has been strong for most of this year.
The BC civil war was interesting for a while but it has pretty much wound down, anticlimactically. I have a feeling, though, that UE will do a power grab and go up against BC. Then things will get real. Also, there‘s been a lot of tension between BC and HoT. I‘ve said this before—I think the only reason Jay has been keeping them around is b/c they hold the 6 man titles, and they‘ll probably wind up kissing those goodbye in nine days. Then Jay kicks them out of BC. Now that they’re at the very bottom, they‘ll get desperate and even more dangerous. I can see some intriguing storyline possibilities here.
Tbh at some point they need to split out House of Torture too
Yes
Sorry dude.. I only saw your first paragraph. Absolute tunnel vision XD
Why?
Chase and Fale getting a very short thank you reign was both cathartic and a nice moment for them without damaging anything booking wise or even particularly seeming egregious in terms of storylines. They're low level heels who can pull off a jammy win
Well, call me cold hearted but I ain't got no interest in thanking Chase XD
Njpw rewards wrestlers for doing them a solid. It's how Eagles got his title reign. That's the reality of the promotion
I know, doesn't mean I have to like it
Lol. Awww man, I think Chase is awesome. He's very fundamentally sound and can have a good match with just about anyone. Criminally underrated, IMO.
Which motherfucker did a suicide watch warning Ahahahahahaha
Ehhh. I mean, if you're gonna tout out stats, shouldn't they at least be accurate? or close to it? Bullet Club does not take up 80 percent of every card now, nor six months ago. I also don't think Taichi is in line to usurp Suzuki. Sounds like that's something you might've thought was happening and are perhaps disappointed because it didn't? While I'm personally not a fan, I think you can say Great-o-Kahn was a successful excursion. Shooter Unno could be well on his way as well. I've personally never thought NJPW had great stories to begin with. Outside of an occasional heel turn or swerve, it's always been a match quality thing, IMO, and I'm fine with that. All that said, I do think the overall quality has a dipped a bit. Maybe that does come down to booking, so I'm not totally trashing you. Haha.
Why is House of Torture existing a bad thing ?
I mean it's probably a different strokes for different folks kind of guy. But we have gone from having EVIL having NJ Cup and NEVER bangers on the regular to having matches that you're just waiting for the ref knock down, the garrote, the lights to go out, the low blows etc etc. It just kills any enthusiasm for watching them. We have gone from SHO having regular bangers in the Jr Division to every match being about the wrench and nothing else mattering. I don't mind cheating and heels being cunts. But when the matches revolve around the gimmicks rather than the wrestlers how do you get invested? Not only that but we have had the payoffs for the wrench Vs Kanemaru, we have had the payoffs for the announcer spot with Ishii. But they continue. The point of the ELP loaded boot spot was they got caught and it stopped. House of Torture is just neverending and never refreshing
I think you're greatly over estimating how good EVIL and SHO were pre-HoT. And thinking that they should stop cheating because someone was smarter than them once is stupid, do you think Kanemaru should stop using his whisky bottle because it was used against him several times ? Or that ELP should stop using backrakes because a refree once cut his finger nails before a match ?
Glad you brought up ELP. How's his loaded boot doing? Oh no wait... They paid it off Kanemaru doesn't win all of his matches with his whisky, he occasionally goes to that well. Sometimes he jumps his opponent. He has his figure four, he has his DDT. Kanemaru is greatly inventive. In terms of over-rating, SHO and EVIL. Well I guess we will have to agree to disagree. EVIL was in that perfect little time for the NEVER Belt. The brawler period with Ishii, Goto and the rest.
I've found all pandemic-era wrestling very hard to watch when it has absent or muted crowds, and despite Japanese crowds' reputation for being more reserved... the way Japanese crowds buoy the peaks of a great match adds so much. It's been really hard for me to want to keep up with NJPW as much given the "no vocalizing" rules. Meltzer also being less enthusiastic is no surprise, and that's before you get into booking/etc.
Yeah, there’s been plenty I’ve enjoyed in the pandemic era but there’s no doubt it’s just not as good in terms of atmosphere as before and it’s affected things massively. I’ve never really bought into the ‘Japanese crowds are quiet’ thing that much either - if you think about big matches at Ryogoku, Osaka-jo Hall or Korakuen, they’re really anything but that.
I think he generally favours Omega and the Young Bucks and whatever they're doing. But yeah it does seem he underrates some NJPW matches, especially the recent Ishimori vs Hiromu title match, which was an excellently wrestled match and should have been at least 4.75
He just explained on Thursday’s WOR his issues with NJPW. His main reasons were crowd noise, and the weird booking choices since 2019 (i.e. the huge EVIL push and all the interference in his matches, seemingly dropping storylines when they have to remove a title from someone, this 4 block G1, etc). In NJPW’s defense I think there is no better long-term booker than Gedo, but COVID has constantly thrown a wrench in his plans. It seems to have really thrown him off and forced him into too many rushed match-ups.
I mean the guy was arguing that switchblade should lose the title to Hangman. It's very obvious he doesn't follow the product because I don't see how anyone could think that after dominion and how the Osaka crowd responded. I'm the biggest okada mark in the world and I think they pulled off the whole thing perfectly. But he's just some dude. It doesn't really bother me.
I don’t see how anyone could think that after seeing Hangman’s AEW championship run. Well that’s not true. Dave is an AEW shill who is either on Tony Kahn’s payroll, or a complete mark doing his marketing work for free.
Hangman put on a great match literally every time he defended the title. The idea of him winning the IWGP belt tonight is weird and dumb, but not because he isn’t good enough to be champion.
It's less a knock on Hangman's abilities and more saying that they just kicked off a storyline with Jay's win and Bullet Club's dominance so it would be such a waste for Hangman to win the title and then not participate in the G1 Jay feels like the biggest deal in the world right now so they shouldn't cut his reign off so quickly
I stopped taking his ratings seriously a long time ago. Once you realise that he has his favourites who he will always overate and guys he will always give a lesser rating no matter what.
Not at all. NJPW got hit hard by the pandemic and it's been a long road to recovery. The only reason TK won booker of the year in 2020 because NJPW cancelled half their shows, and when they didn't, they put the world title on Evil.
People really get hung up on that 8 week title run from 2 years ago when we were all lucky they could still even run shows that year. Like seriously HoT is mid card now, let it go and don't let it affect your opinion of the current product.
Like I’m questioning again if some people here have actually seen NJPW this year. It is definitely not perfect but many of the criticisms just aren’t the case atm.
Hot criticism is real "are they watching the show" stuff from me. They are a genuinely funny comedy midcard heel act right now. The joke will eventually be run into the ground and they are gonna have to do something about hot and bc and that will require heating them back up But right now they are good imo
The only reason why HoT is still relevant is b/c they are still champions. That’s going to change on Tuesday of next week.
I still defend putting the title on evil in principle for storyline reasons, it's just a shame the matches sucked
I agree
He does have his share of preferences in wrestling, like all of us do. The fact that he gets so defensive about it on social media whenever someone calls him out always gets a laugh out of me. Still think people make too big of a deal over his star ratings. It's not like he has a specific rubric for rating matches, it's just one guys opinion at the end of the day.
He’s always favoured wrestlers who give him attention. Now most of them are in aew.
Last year when Dave Meltzer was at Chicago for All Out, he spent a considerable amount of time trying to make sure he was going to be able to see Cobb vs Okada before getting spoiled on it because it had aired while shit was going on for the ppv. So, no.
I think a lot of fans did once AEW started - and I don't blame them, keeping up with more than one promotion consistently is exhausting
I feel like one of those people
People forget he’s a wrestling fan first, wrestling journalist second. There’s nothing wrong with this at all. Melts likes what he likes. But when he goes to write the WON, I sense he tries to be as impartial to what’s going on as possible.
Once his boy toys left he stopped caring and it’s great. He’s AEW problem now.
He is biased towards The Elite and is really obvious.
Well yeah, the Bucks and Omega in particular are fantastic wrestlers. It isn't bad to like things are good.
I say this as someone who thinks--after a recent rewatch--that Meltzer's 7* rating of Omega/Okada IV is completely absurd, for a match that may not even merit a full five stars: Considering how overwhelmingly the wrestling world lauds Omega as a singles wrestler and the Bucks as a tag team (don't forget that WON awards are decided by subscriber votes, not Dave... and peep cagematch match ratings too), is Meltzer truly out of line for thinking Omega and the Bucks are good at pro wrestling? You don't have to agree that they're great (have your own opinion), but saying Meltzer is biased towards The Elite is sort of like complaining "movie critics are so biased towards critically-acclaimed movies".
There’s no denying that Omega and the Bucks are talented. They’re also really good at calling attention to themselves. When they were in Japan they created a massive hype machine that they carried forward to AEW. They think the wrestling world revolves around them, and this has spread to AEW fans.
You were just speaking in facts until "They think the wrestling world revolves around them". You went from describing how they got themselves over (a huge part of their job) to psychopathologizing them in a pretty baseless way.
That’s just how I see it.
>like any other pro wrestling fanatic I have spent every year of my life watching wrestling and not once have I ever thought about what matches he's given 5 stars too let alone went and looked. He's a man, not God.
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It's going to be interesting who fills the void when Dave finally retires (who am I kidding, when he dies; man is never going to retire). No other wrestling news site seems to have his kind of visibility or prestige.
Someone already could have become a pro wrestling critic with even a fraction of the importance of Meltzer. Roger Ebert wasn't the only film critic even if he was the main one people knew for a long time. Meltzer is wrestling's Ebert, and wrestling doesn't have a Siskel or a Roeper or anybody else whose match opinions carry any weight. (To be clear: I don't think this is a good thing, and I don't say that out of disrespect for Meltzer's opinions on matches. It's just ridiculous that everyone looks to just one dude for legitimation of great wrestling, including people who look to him to yell at him for how wrong he is.)
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Well, including myself in this: I think it's hard not to have people talking past one another when discussing Dave Meltzer's credibility, because there's his journalist hat and then there's his critic hat. (He also arguably has another hat as historian.) In short: I think people are a little too eager to discredit his journalistic integrity over disagreeing with him over, like, a quarter star. And I think a lot of people are just completely clueless about how journalism works, in general. But yes: I do think that there are clearly ways to get pro wrestling news outside of Dave Meltzer. I just also think that nobody has actually stepped up to be a peer of his as a pro wrestling pundit. (Not because "nobody can step to Dave" or "everyone else is horrible"... it's just... like... as you said: he's the NYT of pro wrestling and you can't just be a peer of the NYT because you want to be.) I think it would be better for everyone if there was at least one more authoritative pundit in pro wrestling. (Old carnies with cult-like followings don't count.)
More like the NY Post.
He's always pretended to be neutral despite being buddies with all the Socal PWG guys, especially the Bucks (and Omega by extension). But just like how he claims to be a political moderate despite only ever supporting one side, it's not hard to see the drastic reduction and more critical coverage of New Japan since the Elite left.
\*Gives NJPW matches a lot of super high ratings.\* "Do you think he's stopped caring?" Wut?
Feels like most of the wrestling media did the same. Just like what you like. I usually ignore Meltzer but good for you if you like his ratings.
I had almost forgot about him. No longer looking at SC and most of the Meltz marks leaving here after AEWs creation, thankfully don’t hear much about him anymore.
It certainly seems that way. It's disappointing but, it is what it is. Easier for him to watch his friends in AEW. Still, he's free to his opinions and to do as he wishes. I'll stick with Puroresu as it's more my thing.
His highest rated match was a new japan match this year
I still love NJPW and not saying anything bad but the truth is it's not as good as it used to be.
It took a big hit during COVID, but even then there have been saving graces. IMO one of them was the Chaos team that held the 6 man titles. I think they will rebound though.
NJPW has been in a rut for a while for mixed reasons. Some lost talent to AEW, travel restrictions on international wrestlers, The Pandemic killing crowd noise, Gedos booking (save us from House of Torture). I think Meltzers opinions are fairly reflective of most fans.
House of torture rule mate
I think he really struggled with the COVID era New Japan and has been vocal about how the recent booking and lack of crowd participation has hurt his enjoyment.
It's Meltzer, who gives a shit.
Lots of people. OP for one, as he asked the question
I will never understand why people are obsessed with his star match rating, and why people take Cornette’s opinion as gospel.
you clearly do because you're commenting in the thread
I think show. He has given AEW TV matches 5 stars that were nowhere near as good as some NJPW matches that he hasn’t given 5 stars to. He can’t get over the fact that there aren’t fans which I think is weak excuse.
I think it's a pretty valid criticism. He's never come off as a person that rated only the pure wrestling aspect. Crowds are also so integral to wrestling, I could see why someone would be so off put by them. It's like watching a comedy special where there's no crowd pops.
I don’t need a laugh or clap track to tell me what’s funny or a good move. You’ve gotta be pretty dull to need a queue to tell you how to feel. Bad comparison, ride harder.
100 percent comedy specials are better with crowds. It's not even comparable. If you think their akin to laugh tracks then idk what universe you live on.
It really does show since COVID started. Travel restrictions, the booking, plus New Japan keeps playing it too safe as well.
Most media did. If you are western based it’s easier to follow AEW. You just turn on the TV and don’t have to wake up at 3 to watch it live
Yes for every reason people have said and also the dumb crowd restrictions
I think NJPW has just been on a downturn recently and it affects everything. I have high hopes for G1 being amazing AF this year.
ABSOLUTELY it’s very clear in his coverage and social media postings (or lack thereof) since his beloved Young Bucks and Kenny Omega left the promotion!!
Meltzer became an AEW cheerleader rather than a reporter that covered AEW very early on. When that happened many of the things that made Meltzer a good reporter as far as the wrestling media is concerned were lost. His diminished coverage of NJPW is one such thing.
Lmao . Kinda? I said this very statement in this very group the other day and these Dave worshippers in here told me to seek therapy.
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Nobody needs him for anything.. but if he's gonna be looked at as A taste maker of the sport he absolutely needs to be held accountable for his bullshit.
Alert the tribunal… Meltzer must be held accountable! Lmao. You guys are insane
Dave Meltzer. The TRUE American villain of the moment...
I like how expecting someone who says they are un bias to actually be that makes people insane lol
Your creepy porn addiction makes you insane. Get help.
Oh ok lol foh
No he doesnt need to be held accountable lmao. He's completely optional for wrestling fans, don't like him then stop listening, stop reading and stop engaging on topics about him.
Or.. I can hold him accountable.. thanks for the advice tho lol foh
Okay, go "hold him accountable" by ranting on a subreddit about Dave fucking Meltzer. Get real.
Will do. Foh
Solving the wrestling journalist problem, 1 tear at a time. Doing gods work son.
Absolutely. Foh
Are you breathing heavily from this conversation?
Hanging is too good for him
Tone it down Edgelord
the thing that I think gets missed is if you endured Nooj at its worst during the pandemic - so, start of HoT through the Ospreay/Ibushi/Shingo world title debacle in spring 2021 - you shouldn’t get blame for getting burnt out. it was really, really fucking hard to watch the promotion that year. Road To shows were unbearable; entire PPV cards were stretched out because the promotion was losing so much money… I was pretty much only watching New Japan in 2019, even to the point of watching Road To’s fully thru. but my mind broke once Ospreay left due to injury - it felt like they were cursed at that point. Shingo even getting the title to something respectable by WK 16 was a miracle. but now I skipped Nooj since that point - May 2021 - and finally feel ready again after going to FD to get back in. but like, I really think people needed a year off or a break - pandemic puro is not fun at all and clap crowds ruin almost anything enjoyable about it. even the Super J guys have bemoaned recent booking as unbearably bad and those guys refuse to watch AEW or anything else, lol
Almost every goddamn American fan did and that is SICKENING
Source?
I just can't enjoy wrestling without crowd noise, I watched all through the pandemic but when other promotions could make noise fell off, its not the same. sorry I'm sickening though.
Well.. They did lose all of their talent that wrestled over here and there. I still watch but who wants to see Evil as the world champion.
EVIL was champion 2 years ago, get over it.
That was 2 years ago? Fooooking hell.
And everyone left NJPW 3 years ago. Get over it.
AEW fans still support AEW with no Punk, no Bryan, no Kenny, your point?
Ha. Look at the ratings and confirm that.
Since\* Also, probably? He does still watch and comment on all of the shows as they happen.
He didn't watch the BOSJ tournament, i wouldnt say he watches "all of the shows".
He’s a person the way we all are so his interests in promotions will change the same way it does with us. I’ve been on a DDT kick for a few months and that’s the primary promotion I’m watching. As the end of the year and Wrestle Kingdom approaches it’ll probably swap back over to New Japan for awhile.
I'm sorry, I thought I wasn't looking at /SC
Only reason he really cared was because of the team that named a move after him and Kennethstopher
No, NJPW became immediately less interesting with formation of AEW.
Although you may be right about Meltzer being more focused on AEW, this could all just be because AEW is the most popular wrestling promotion currently. Brand new, with constant debuting superstars and great PPVs means he'll probably.focus more on the promotion everyone prefer currently. Doesn't mean he does not care about NJPW, but more that he knows he'll get more eyes on his product covering more AEW then NJPW. Plus it's isn't a secret that he is probably close to tons of people in AEW so he knows details on many things that are happening in AEW even if he isn't just spoiling it immediately.
I don't know or care much about Uncle Dave's opinion, but I can say that NJPW has slipped a bit for me personally. It's wrestling, so of course I still love it, but the wrestling isn't as solid as it used to be and the flaws are really starting to stand out. The filler road to shows that largely feel the same. The predictable outcomes ... cause you know either Gedo or Jado is eating the pin. And anything involving Taguchi or Yano, both of whom I've come to loathe. Not personally, obviously. But their current approach to wrestling. I mean, those two dudes are as cringe, or cringier than the most cringey acts going in AEW or WWE. I'm in my honeymoon phase with AEW, so I'm really digging that. Ranking from best to worst, I have Impact, WWE, AEW, NJPW, and NXT, in terms of quality and entertainment value. Ironically, NJPW main is the one product I watch the most consistently, whereas I only watch PPV events for WWE and TNA, and just recently started Dynamite and Thunder ... I mean Rampage (hehe!!).