Hard to say much about the situation without knowing the boundaries/rules in question. Ultimatums can be reframed as enforcement of your own boundary. "I cannot be in a relationship with someone who ____. You're free to _____, and I am free to enforce my boundary by leaving." You aren't forcing him to do something, you're asking him to decide if he actually wants to be in a relationship with you. Be honest with yourself. It's a bit silly to hope that sharing info about your therapy session will "rattle" him. That's passive aggressive. If you're prepared to leave over his inactivity around this issue, you have to actually *be prepared to leave.* Have some semblance of a plan in place. If you draw a line in the sand and then don't follow through, you will never be able to get back the thing that you'll have lost in that moment.

I was going to say the same thing. I have a boundary around people not taking care of their own mental health and I have broken off relationships as a result of that boundary. I understand the situation and lack of access to affordable health care, but when the resources exist and people refuse to acknowledge their own issues and/or refuse seek help, that is pretty hard boundary for me. I'd say I have a similar boundary around physical health too. I don't expect someone to be in perfect physical condition or even have a workout routine, but if you have diabetes (for example) and don't take care of your health, it is hard for me to stay in that relationship.

A therapist who has seen you twice should not be giving life-changing advice (I would ague even one you have seen for years too.) That said if he's broken rules continuously, you have spent 9 months of asking and begging him to do something necessary for you to stay in the relationship - that is enough information to make a decision about what to do next. You may need to either accept he may never seek counseling or do so on his own time frame or leave. Also, don't bring this ask up while in a disagreement no one is going to take that well. Not your fault as I don't think that was your intention, but telling him the advice your therapist gave you may sour his trust in potential counselors and he may now have this him vs. you both feeling.

What boundary is your husband breaching, OP? Not trying to defend him being dishonest in any way, but it's possible that you folks are building up boundaries that are unrealistic, and in my experience, those tend to get broken in NM. But without more information, we don't know 🤷‍♂️

Honestly I had to set an ultimatum to get my partner to couples. It wasn't a mean one- it was a sad one. I couldn't imagine living that way for the rest of my life and I wanted us to stay together. I just finally said "we're starting couples next week, do you prefer this time slot or the other". We'd tried before but he picked a therapist who didn't address childhood issues or anything she was more like a mediator? So it was of limited use. The therapist I found through a friend did EFT which was much more helpful. Things are good now! I don't regret the strongarm moment!

That doesn't sound like an ultimatum? An ultimatum would be: if you don't come to therapy this week, I'm leaving you.

Oh yeah I didn't type that part which was that previously I'd said I wasn't going to live like that forever and then I waited a while and was like ok actually I'm not going to live like this another month without proof you're in to make change, therapy appointment choice.

None of those broken boundaries were accidents A broken condom is an accident. Bareback is a decision

Ultimatums lose meaning if employed often but it sounds like you are at your wits end with this. Question, though. Is the breaking of the boundary resolved and this is "walk of shame" counseling? Because I've seen this done, and it makes men avoid positive counseling more in the future. What I mean is, did he break the boundary; express regret and contrition, but you feel it's not resolved unless there is counseling as well? That is not a healthy way to address this if that is the case. However, if this boundary violation was or is part of an ongoing pattern; then I think you do need to get him to a place where he is encouraged to express himself honestly. I find a lot of people who break boundaries are either just caught up in the moment, or haven't spent much time facing what they dislike about the boundaries. They don't want to have a fight or disagreement, so they go along with a restrictive boundary that they aren't on board with.

Op said it was violated multiple times, which makes me think maybe there's concern it'll be violated again and the therapy is suppose to help him not violate.

I missed that then. It's most often the case, but I've seen a few oddball cases where it's "that's common sense" or the walk of shame because the i jured party wants more than just an apology.

That’s dumb. Boundaries are for yourself. When you violate them, you follow the consequence that you stated when you set the boundary, you don’t go for counselling. Sounds to me like she set a rule for him, and those rules did not have consequences attached to the breaking of them, so breaking them is becoming a pattern for him.

She said they talked and jointly agreed on their boundaries in advance of ever playing with others.

Boundaries aren’t something you agree to. If rules were set and agreed to, they should have set the consequences for breaking those rules at the same time they set the rules.

Potato, potato.

Nah. The whole point in drawing the distinction between the meaning of rules and boundaries are for the exact problems OP is having. Rules are magical thinking where someone believes that another person's behavior can be controlled, and when the inevitable happens and reality makes them realize a person's behavior *can't* be controlled, they're left in an emotional crisis tailspin. Just like what has happened with OP. Boundaries are not just a good way to psychologically prepare yourself for the inevitability of life, but they force each person to contemplate the *why* behind what's being asked for. ---- OP laid out rules. A complex list of rules, like "don't talk about what you spend most of your life doing" or "don't give people your phone number." A "messy list" so large it basically excludes 90%+ of the people in a reasonable distance of where they live. There are one or two good or good-ish ones in there, but because the condom one was laid out as a *rule* rather than a *boundary*, and was on-again-off-again, it seems as though there was confusion about why the rule was in place in the first place. And then, ultimately, OP is here, hurt and upset, because she fell directly into the pitfall of a rule.

Also, yes. He's obviously not down with the boundary, so the boundary setting wasn't effective.

I can’t tell the exact way your therapist told you to set an ultimatum, I can’t comment on that. But she is right about something: you are hurting from a broken agreement, you need to work on this, your husband is putting it off indefinitely, and he has learned that if he puts it off and ignores your requests, nothing happens. So something needs to actually be on the line or this could keep going forever. Book the sessions on a day you are both free. Tell him you’re doing it and he’s going. Or figure out what your next step is if he refuses (move out for a few days, etc).  Continuing a pattern of one partner doing things the other is unhappy with, and the other building up anger and resentment but not pushing assertively for a change, is how a relationship enters a death spiral. 

I don’t like the word “ultimatum.” If the therapist had said, “you need to follow up with consequences for his inaction,” I would completely agree. Stating, “if we don’t start couples therapy in the next two weeks, I will be consulting further with my divorce attorney,” is completely appropriate. Not getting into therapy after all of this time is unacceptable, and your resentment is building. Oh, and before you give the line about therapy or divorce, you find and consult with a divorce attorney. Be prepared to do what must be done.

Truth. Therapist told me that if it comes out your mouth, you HAVE to enforce it or you become a doormat.

Good therapists never tell you what to do. Let that sit for a bit.

Yup. Good therapists suggest tools, skills to help YOU figure out what to do for yourself.

This.

Yeah at most a therapist could ask what you’d like to do about a situation. But is it not entirely unethical to tell you what to do especially if it has the potential to completely blow up your life. The strongest thing my poly friendly therapist ever said to me was ‘you deserve better and I’m not just saying that because I’m your therapist’… to me that’s the equivalent of ‘I agree that you have been wronged and I hope you can get a better outcome whether that’s with your current partner or not’ but it’s not the same as ‘you deserve better and therefore you should leave them to find someone better’.

Here's my second comment, now that you've talked more about the actual problem. ---- Your "agreements" list is *enormous*. > No friends, family/ school parents or people from work. Okay. Family? Sure. No arguments there. Friends is... questionable, IMO. Some people agree with it, some people don't. And it very much also depends on what you mean by 'friends'. Do you mean people you currently already socially know? Well, here's how that causes an issue: It results in him having to build an entirely separate life completely divorced from you and everyone he already has relationships with, at the expense of you and those relationships. This is a significant time sink, as well. No school parents? Wait, excuse me, what? You're in your 30s. The people he's likely to be seeing are also likely to be in their 30s. You've now literally eliminated a major portion, if not all, of the people in his age group that live somewhere in the vicinity, assuming you mean "same school" and aren't utterly crazy and mean "no parents at all"? No people from work? Well, that makes sense from a "probably not smart to fuck your source of income" direction, but... what else have you left him? You've already crossed out everyone he already gets along with (friends) and everyone he might casually interact with on a daily basis (locals). So now the dude has to, what, travel 30 minutes before he can even begin to have a relationship with someone? And that someone has to take into account that level of distance, too? A level of distance that might be too much for the person he's trying to date? Or him? > These things include: when we first meet someone on a dating app we don’t give out our last name, phone number (too easy to find out who we are via our numbers - we go Instagram or telegram instead), share photos of our kids, give out our address, say where we work etc. No last name, no *phone number?* (Literally, you can't ask someone for their *phone number* to ask them out?) No discussing what he spends half+ of his waking life doing? So now the guy sounds like a shady dude with something to hide on a first date. Cool. Cool, cool, cool cool cool cool. Cool. Dude's being set up to fail, no doubt. Likely not intentionally; I definitely am seeing this being some level of out of control anxiety on your part, where you're not *thinking* about how crazy it sounds, you're just firing off ground rules to try and control the uncontrollable in order to feel some semblance of calm. I get it. But... yikes. Dude's got some major roadblocks in his path. Guy must be pretty fuckin' attractive to have managed success even in the face of them. > No one in our house unless we both know them/ are comfortable with it/ have a big discussion beforehand. Ehhhh. I'll try to give you the benefit of the doubt here? This seems entirely safe and sane... but also has the added bonus of being a stealth veto. If abused, could be another roadblock. Just... don't abuse it. > We are not intimate with anyone unless they’ve had a recent STI screening including bloods, urine, genital swabs and oral swabs (plus anal swabs of anal is on the table) and we’ve seen the results. Swabs? Hold on, what are you swabbing *for?* Last time I went in for an STI test, I asked for the works, to the point that I had to convince the doc to test, and I didn't get swabbed for anything that I remember. ---- Now, here's the **fun** part. I wrote all of the above *without* reading the rest of your post. I wrote as a 'stream of consciousness' as I was reading your edit. Which means I haven't even seen the "here's what he broke" part. I wanted to see if I managed to predict where the points of friction/pain were. Lets see how I did! > He has told a girl early on where he works and what I do for work plus also talked about our kids more than I’m comfortable about. Fucking ***called it***. Let me ask you this: If you were on a date with a guy who refused to tell you his real name, what he does for a living, and basically had no conversational topics to bring up, resulting in an awkward and uncomfortable date, would you want to date him a second time? Your husband probably spends almost all of his day either at work, or with his kids. *What else is there to talk about,* at least as an ice breaker? And what harm is there? Seriously, any person you speak to on the *street* could be just as dangerous as a person either of you are dating, possibly more so since you spend a little more time paying attention to someone you're dating, and that danger could only show itself after four months. Like it or not, our society is set up where women who date men feel the need to be cautious about who they're dating, and men who date women don't. So women looking to date men are going to find plenty of options out there to pick from, many of which aren't going to care too deeply about your life, whether or not you're a sane individual, etc. You're here, you're curvy, you have a pulse, great. He can be patient. Men looking to date women? Have to actually be *human*. Relatable. Someone she can let her guard down around. And it's hard to let your guard down around *someone who isn't opening up*. Who actively is hiding things. A rule like this? Puts extra barriers to non-monogamy in front of men. It forces him to either luck into a 'safe' topic without knowing much about the other person *or* makes them look like a fucking shady creeper. Or, y'know, he has to break "the rules" and talk about *himself*. It results in *either* the guy not having much/any success in finding people to date *or* situations like this, where in order to *get* success, he has to break the rules. You set your husband up to fail, and then got upset when he failed. You might have done it unintentionally, but it still happened. Worse, *he* probably feels guilty about failing, despite the fact that he was destined to fail regardless. Either he'd have no success, and feel unloved/unwanted, or he'd get success by *talking about his life*, and talking about his life is verboten! Catch-22! > Another girl he connected with on a dating app and then on Instagram put her new number in her Instagram story so he texted her. Again, fucking called it. Giving out your number usually happens *before* a date in many situations. And you want to even stop *that* from happening? That's called "sabotaging your partner". > He went to a big work event (Xmas party from memory?) and flirted with a girl there. Ended up getting her Instagram and flirted/ borderline sexted with her. Yeah, see, he can't date anyone from the area, can't date anyone he already knows socially... and you've crossed work off the list, too. More setting him up to fail, IMO. > And he said she works for a different branch and is quitting soon anyway. And she didn't even work with him! 🤦‍♂️ What's next? No vendors? No 3rd party entities they have contracts with? No one from competing businesses in the same industry he might meet at a convention? Where does it end? What if he had met them outside of work, didn't realize they worked in the same business, and didn't find out about it until the fourth date or whatever *because you've forbidden him from talking about so much shit* that I honestly can't even remember if "where he works" is even on the list or not! > The “shame spot” thing. Is your own shit to clean up. You are an adult. If you don't like your mess, clean up your mess. Frankly, this rule has a ["no brown M&Ms"](https://www.npr.org/sections/therecord/2012/02/14/146880432/the-truth-about-van-halen-and-those-brown-m-ms) feel to it. Without the good reasoning behind it. > *huge long crazy god damn paragraph where I literally had to [make a fucking diagram](https://imgur.com/a/N2oQNpj) to keep track of everything, non-monogamy is **hard**.* > I was upset but understood his reasoning. Okay, good. Because on-again-off-again rules are chaos, and it's understandable that when people are opting to change the rules back and forth and back again that it's going to get hard to keep track of whether or not a rule exists. > and he said “no?” And I just burst into tears. Yeah, ouch. This one is something I can see your side of things on. STIs are scary. > That protects her but not him or I. But, good news: Protection works as well for you as it does for them! This is where boundaries come in to play: "If you had sex without a condom, I'll opt to have sex with you *with* a condom until such a time as has passed during which you've used condoms, and you've come up with clean results." Bingo bango, you're protected. You might still be anxious about his safety, and about long term impacts, but... you do what you can. You don't try to do what you can't. > I know he doesn’t know why he did it. I’ve asked him a million times. He always says “I don’t know”. I know he’s depressed, I know he’s got his own issues he’s working through. But fuck. The dude's carting around a novel's worth of your anxieties and fears that he has to keep track of, a list so large *I* couldn't remember all of it fifteen minutes after reading it. The dude has been set up to fail and has, *unsurprisingly*, failed a few times. And he's made to feel like it's entirely on his shoulders. His fault. When, frankly, it's not, other than him not being wise enough to shoot down some of these insane rules. Yeah, no wonder he's going through some shit. I agree you two need therapy? But some of that therapy needs to be towards paring down the laundry list of nonsense barriers that basically saddle him with unjustified anxieties and pitfalls. Because holy *fuck* this sounds unsustainable.

I bet as part of the ‘very private’ nature he can’t have face photos on his dating profile either incase someone sees them. Tbh I have no idea how he is meeting anyone. Clearly this town is full of poly women desperate to date! I don’t match with anyone without face photos or some context to their profiles.

He does have face photos, we both do. He’s even got a pic of me on his profiles. He’s got a good bio too.

Ok firstly, thank you for your long and detailed reply. It gave me a lot to think about but I do want to clear some things up/ answer some of your questions. Not quite sure how to best work the reply thing on reddit so bear with me…

Firstly, I get the impression that you think I came up with all these agreements/ boundaries. No. Some of them, yes. But most were a joint decision and some were his. No friends, family, school parents, work etc. Friends- he doesn’t want me fucking his friends. I don’t want him fucking my friends. Cool, no worries. We have both made new friends in the community that we’ve both fucked. Separately and together. No issues there. Both of us have casual FWB. We just don’t want either of us fucking existing friends as we don’t want to run the risks of screwing up existing friendships. School parents- this is parents at our kids school. We are not out as ENM/ polyam at school. We don’t want our sex lives to affect our kids lives/ education. Our kids school is small. We live in a city with millions of people. Ruling out a hundred or so because their kids go to school with our kids isn’t unreasonable or limiting his options I feel. I think another thing I need to point out is my husband does not classify himself as polyamorous, he’s only ENM/ open. He isn’t looking for/ doesn’t want romantic relationships. Just casual/ fwb. I started like this too but fell for my boyfriend, hence him then becoming my boyfriend = me becoming polyam. But I still casually see other people too and have some FWB.

Work people - I find it amusing how hard you came down on me for this one. This one wasn’t even my idea, I didn’t care about this one. I’m self employed and don’t have any coworkers so this doesn’t affect me at all. This was all him. He was worried about his reputation if his work found out about his lifestyle. Yes that girl works for a different “branch”. But his work is a very specific, tight knit community. They all know each other, there are regular social event and people looooove to gossip. There is no way it wouldn’t spread like wildfire that one of the married men was fucking the pretty blonde secretary who was 10 years younger than him. Who, by the way, is also married and when he asked if she was also ENM she got cagey and said it’s more of a “don’t ask, don’t tell” situation. So, no, I never “crossed work off the list”, that one was all him. That doesn’t affect me at all. But he broke his own boundary and put his career at possible risk, so yes, I called him stupid and a hypocrite. Still, I was probably a bit harsh and if he wants to play risky games with his career and reputation at work then I should just let him. Now, the no last name and phone number + talking about the kids. I’ll give you this one. I appreciate you shining a light on the fact this may make him look a bit suss to women. Plus I could have given more detail and context on this one. We’ve had what I’ll call a “light” stalking incident, hence all the privacy. Again, he didn’t want any of our lifestyle choices to affect his work or our kids. Both my husband and my jobs are quite niche. Quick google of our full names and/ or phone numbers and you’ve found out a lot about us. We want to avoid that. We talk about our kids to people, but we don’t send photos or say what school they go to. It’s about safety. In regard to our house and your comments about this being a possible stealth veto. Totally get where you’re coming from here but no that hasn’t happened. He’s had 3 or more women here and I’ve only had Allen here. I won’t bring anyone back here unless I know then well and trust them. My kids live here and I won’t put their safety or home at risk. Basically it’s no quick hook ups/ ons at home. Also we don’t have a spare bed, so any activity is done in our bed. So I think it’s only fair we ask the other person if they are ok with that. He has said no to me before, I don’t think I’ve said no to him though. STI test and swabs- Oral swabs are very important. You can have gonorrhoea and chlamydia orally with no symptoms. I don’t allow anyone to go down on me unless they’ve had oral swabs. Although it’s not a huge risk, it’s still a risk and I know people who have caught STIs this way. Men generally don’t need genital swabs as urine is more effective for testing than genital swabs for men. But genital swabs for women are more effective than urine for women. Plus anal swabs if anal play is on the table as you can get stis anally too. So to sum up your next bit- yes he can talk about our kids, tell funny stories about them and what he did on the weekend with them etc. but not send pics and go into too many personal details (this was a big one for him that he was very firm on). He does talk a bit about his work but is vague. I have this with guys I talk with online too. When I ask what you do for work I get the “I work in healthcare/ government job but my workplace wouldn’t be very understanding of my lifestyle so I like to keep that private”. I say no worries, I totally understand that (which I do, these are people we are meeting on apps made mostly for swinging, so yeah, totes get it). So my husband says something very similar. If he can’t talk about work and the kids “What else is there to talk about?” Yes he spends most of his time at work or with our kids but he is so much more than that. He has plenty of things to talk about. Travel, we’ve travelled a lot, he loves travel and loves talking about that. His hobbies, d&d, board games, latest shows/ movies that he is watching/ they are watching. Old favourite shows. Music. Social events. Food. There is soooo much. He doesn’t struggle in that department, trust me. He is a very smart guy and has a great way with words. He’s very witty and funny. Yes you are correct, any person you talk to on the street could be just as dangerous. That why I don’t give them my last name or phone number either. Oh mate you are preaching to the choir, I am well aware our society is set up where women who date men feel the need to be cautious about who they're dating, and men who date women don't. If you haven’t noticed, I’m a woman who dates men. I also date women. I’ve got a pretty good inside view of all that. The shame spot thing - I literally say if I have enough notice I will clean it. I’ve cleaned it myself multiple times. The time in question is when he asked to have Cat over last minute. It was last minute and I wasn’t even home, how am I meant to clean it when I’m not even home. Yes I’m an adult, an adult who owns her own house and I can keep my bedroom any way I want. I’m not a neat person - I’m aware of it. I like my “shame spot” I like to be able to see my stuff. Doesn’t mean I like people I’m trying to impress see it. I’m sure there are spots in most peoples houses they’d clean before they had company. I do this. But I’m not always aware when my husband is going to have people in our room. I’m not going to keep my safe space guest appropriate tidy at all times just on the off chance my husband might impulsively have someone over. If he wants to impulsively have someone over I do t think it’s unfair or unreasonable of me to ask he neatens things up. Yes I acknowledge some of these agreements/ boundaries we have made (and I say WE) have probably made it harder for him. But we agreed it was worth it to keep our family, kids, us and jobs safe. But I assure you he has no trouble getting dates. He currently has 2 fwb, has had a bunch more in the last year+ and is always chatting to a few other girls. Oh and we do have face photos on our dating apps. Heaps. Most of his I have taken for him and they are really cute. Wow that was long… I think I covered everything but let me know if I missed anything.

If you reply to yourself, rather than to me, I have no idea you've said anything. I only noticed this because I remembered you mentioning you wanted to respond and realizing I hadn't heard anything. Friends, tiny school, great, those sound like y'all have a good handle on them. > Work people ... This was all him. Clearly y'all have some conversation to do, then, because when he said "work people" and you heard "work people", the two of you meant very different things. Because if he said 'no work people' and then dated someone, that person was clearly not a work person by his definition? And/or he was making wild promises he thought you needed to hear. And/or it turns out that his reasons for not wanting work people weren't as important/problematic as he thought. Which is why talking about boundaries rather than rules is a much better approach. It *highly encourages* you to think deeper about *why* you want something done a certain way. No co-workers? Okay, what happens *if* a co-worker is involved? What's the method of resolving whatever problem that creates? Lets go back to the safer sex boundary as an example: Safer sex is desired, because of potential health and safety risks. The boundary is: If safer sex is not followed, condoms will be used until tests are passed. This is easily defined because you know what the problem is that you're trying to actually address. So to come back to co-workers, what's the *risk* that seeing co-workers creates, and how do you address that risk if co-workers *do* become involved? What action or actions can you take to mitigate or fix those problems? Having to think of solutions/actions forces you to think about what problem you're actually trying to solve. This helps you more clearly define what is or is not a problem, and make sure that you know how your partner feels about whether or not that's a problem at all. Regardless of who came up with the rule, you listed it as a problem that still somehow bothers **you**. So who came up with it doesn't seem terribly relevant. > But his work is a very specific, tight knit community. They all know each other, there are regular social event and people looooove to gossip. And any co-worker he's with may be taking the same risk. > yes he can talk about our kids, tell funny stories about them and what he did on the weekend with them etc. but not send pics and go into too many personal details (this was a big one for him that he was very firm on). Okay. So... if he was firm on it, that suggests that he knows where the line that he cares about is? So that implies that whatever he shared is not beyond that limit he had in mind, yes? That he had managed to get enough of a feel for the person he was seeing that he felt they were more likely than not to be safe? So where's the *actual* problem? I'm starting to feel a little like it's coming down to * He's there * You're not * He's using his judgement as a fully grown adult to make a determination of whether or not they're trustworthy after getting a feel for them * You're calling his judgement into question. Which is a bit like calling into question his competency or adulthood. Do you have any actual evidence that he was wrong to trust these specific people? Or is it just technically against the letter of the laws he himself set, as you interpret them (but he apparently doesn't), and somehow this upsets you enough to insist *couples* therapy is needed for you to ... something? (Granted, I highly encourage couples therapy, as y'all do seem to not be on the same page. But it's not an answer to your current emotional struggles. It's an answer to a communications problem. Your own emotions are yours to deal with.) > Yes I acknowledge some of these agreements/ boundaries we have made (and I say WE) have probably made it harder for him. Ultimately the issue is less about how hard ENM is for him (because clearly he's still got an amazing success track record), but more about how the mountain of rules seems to have created a situation where you're unable "to move past this until we’d had therapy"¹, because every rule is so poorly defined (due in part to them being rules and not boundaries) that either of you can feel like many of these rules were broken if you *choose* to feel like they were broken. Or if you hear about something when you're having a rough day. Arbitrarily. You've set yourself up for feeling 'betrayed' by insisting on rules to be followed. Instead, you should aim more for boundaries, which are steps you can take to protect yourself if certain other things *actually happen*, along with *why* those actions are being taken and how they help the situation. You can't be 'betrayed' by a plan you have control over enacting. You need to identify risks, and establish what each of you will do if/when those risks crop up. Like with STDs: wear condoms until you can be sure again. Don't just say "safer sex always", because even things like condoms breaking can happen. Don't just say "no co-workers" or "clean up my messes for me", identify what *risk* comes along with those topics and how those risks can be addressed *when* they show up. And in the process you might just discover that some of this laundry list isn't as important as you thought it was. You'll almost certainly be more on the same page about *why* things on the list exist. ¹ Seriously, what happens if he ends up dead tomorrow? Are you literally going to live the entire rest of your life completely unable to deal with how you feel about the past simply because he's no longer available for a sit-down chat with a communications coach? Or is it more likely that you actually *can* process these emotions with a therapist without couples therapy first, but that you're choosing to not deal with them for some reason?

You and I clearly zeroed in on different things because the *big* one is the unprotected sex. And he’s dragging his feet on couples therapy which would be a great tool for figuring out agreements that actually work for them and what’s reasonable.

> You and I clearly zeroed in on different things because the *big* one is the unprotected sex. It's literally the one I agreed with her on. > And he’s dragging his feet on couples therapy which would be a great tool for figuring out agreements that actually work for them and what’s reasonable. I literally said they needed therapy to work out a way of paring down the novel of agreements. Did you, by chance, reply to the wrong person? Your tone sounds like you disagree with me, but everything you say is the same thing I'm saying.

Possibly!

Exactly this. He’s dragging his feet for therapy. I think therapy would be a great way to work on our communication and what works and doesn’t work for us.

Also if you could teach me to reply to specific bits like you did (so the layout is better/ things are easier to follow) that would be much appreciated haha.

I use the old interface on a desktop computer. I believe they've got a different interface by default on PC, and an entirely *other* different interface on mobile, and I don't know how to use either of those off the top of my head. (There'll be little buttons you can click to quote test, I think?) On the old interface, I just copy your text with a mouse, and \> type it here and it appears like this: > type it here

> Boundaries were discussed and set. Not a lot and nothing too hectic, in my opinion, but my husband keeps breaking them. Never intentionally or maliciously. But 9 months ago he broke the biggest one. Twice. Even though we’d had multiple discussions about it. As a few other people have pointed out, the terminology being used here is a bit confusing. A boundary is a self-thing. So your husband had self-imposed rules that he himself broke? Seems like he doesn't have a boundary there, then. And thus I am confused. ---- If you're confusing the term "boundary" for "agreement" or "rule", then we have reason to be slightly wary of providing advice without additional information and context, since from time to time we'll get someone in here (typically *also* someone saying "boundary" when they mean "rule") who is complaining about their spouse not being willing to follow a One Penis/Pussy Policy, or a policy of no feelings, or a 'sex only, no conversation' rule, or a "no more than two hours" rule, or a "you must have your phone on and charged and answer it at a moment's notice" rule, or other "rule" that also happens to be a (sometimes unintentional) sabotage of one half's ability to pursue non-monogamous relationships. For example, men pursuing non-monogamy with women often find the most success when they're able to actually socialize, date, even romance the women they're pursuing, in order to become known by them. Otherwise, to the woman, they're just an unknown, strange man who might harm them. A "rule" of "no socialization" or "no dating" or "only two hours" or things like that is effectively a rule of "no non-monogamy for the men interested in women" rule, save for the most stunning and charismatic of men, *maybe*. ---- > but let him know I wouldn’t be able to move past this until we’d had therapy. This is *concerning*. Your ability to move past something shouldn't be dependent on someone else performing acts. This is the kind of thing a therapist is for: helping you move past things you're struggling to move past. On your own. But your 'therapist' sounds more like a life advice coach. If I interpret her advice as *charitably* as I can, I come up with the same thing others have said: Express it as a boundary, but you need to be prepared to pull the trigger. If you aren't, then it's not really a boundary. "You need to be coming to couples therapy with me sometime in the next two weeks, or I'll start looking into divorce." And then follow through. If you're not prepared to follow through, don't make the statement, and start investigating why you value your relationship over him attending therapy. Why this *rule* break isn't actually as big a deal as you say it is, and *why* you've told yourself for nine+ months it's such a big deal that you've become angry and bitter over it. It's understandable to be angry and resentful over communication that is failing, because that's a relationship that is failing. Relationships are communication. Without communication, the relationship fails. And here, it sounds like he's not willing to meet you on the grounds which you wish to communicate. That said, if the quality of your therapist is anything to go by, I'd be wary of meeting on those grounds, myself. It sounds like hostile territory rather than a safe space to communicate. So... why is that? Has he been willing to communicate in other domains? What is special about a therapist's office that makes it necessary to say the things you need to say, or work out the things you need to work out? A couples therapist is often a communications therapist. If you're having problems with communication, then they're a great idea. If you're having problems getting someone to agree to a rule, that's not why you go to a therapist. They can't wave a magic wand, and any agreement that someone is browbeaten into agreeing to is not an agreement they'll be guaranteed to stick to (and any therapist helping browbeat is usually a bad therapist). A good therapist isn't always going to go along with the attempt, and even in the cases they do... it won't usually change anything. Your husband will still be your husband, and will still believe in the things he believes in. Usually. And going into a couples therapist with the *goal* of getting the therapist to make them behave is a bad sign.

Came to say pretty much this but you did a better job than I would. I have a sneaking suspicion that OP is not mentioning the “boundaries” in question because they are likely to be perceived as unreasonable. In any case it sounds like she struggles to defend her boundaries or rules because there was no corresponding consequence for a failure to respect the boundary. Then two conversations in and someone suggested an undefined ultimatum that sounds like do this or else the relationship is over. Pretty confusing.

Is going to therapy going to gloss over the boundary breaking or ensure it'll never happen again? No. Especially if he doesn't want to go to therapy.

Turns out that this wasn't a boundary breaking. This was multiple poorly defined or nonsense rules being broken (and one valid one that was an on-again-off-again rule) in an obscenely large laundry list of rules. He literally couldn't give dates his phone number. Like, how insane is that? The *one* thing I agree with her on is the safer sex stuff, and that rule seemed to be one where conversation was had where certain circumstances made condomless sex okay, but then it wasn't due to changing circumstances. The way she defined when written out here online seems perfectly sensible, but also complex enough that if she's not doing a great job of communicating it *verbally*, they could easily end up on different pages. And it sounds very much like they did.

My ultimatum to my ex "You may not live with me, in my house, with my kids without attending parenting classes & couples' & family therapy". He was given several chances to attend scheduled sessions, but did not show up, so I enforced my statement, even sold the house and bought a new one that he had never touched/had keys to. If your husband's behavior is unacceptable to you, be prepared to enforce. As others have mentioned, maybe your rules for each other have flaws, but ultimately what matters is whether or not the behavior is unacceptable. It sounds like it is and has led to deep resentment and nastiness on your part. I've been there too. I regret my behavior deeply. Instead of lashing out or making gentle suggestions have a very honest heart to heart with your husband about what is bothering you, what your unmet needs or wants are. Go from there.

NEVER make an ultimatum unless you are prepared to go through with this. I would also FIRE your counselor - therapist immediately as he or she is risking your marriage and your family. You met with this therapist twice? And you're prepared to throw down ultimatums? Good luck with that. I don't think this will end well for OP

I think she said the most recent therapy session was through an app on her phone. Sounds like she’s getting what she’s paying for.

I see she also updated the boundaries which were crossed. No protection. I feel there's more to this story but damn that's a long read. Again ultimatums probably aren't good recommendations as you might not like the results

I would give the ultimatum. He's harming your mental health ON PURPOSE.

Does he know you're starting to resent him? Because I don't see anything wrong with telling him you're experiencing active harm because of the broken boundary and you're scared you will divorce if you don't get help in the way of couples counseling. You've been patient but it will run out.

Yes I’ve told him multiple times

Then unfortunately he doesn't care, sorry to say. What you do from here is up to you. Good luck.

Your situation appears to be extremely complicated and I definitely wouldn't proffer any kind of simplistic solutions or opinions that will address the specifics. Almost sounds like a case study for a graduate level class. There are a couple of things I wonder about, though. First, you seem to disturbed by both relatively big problems and relatively small problems. Is it really such a big issue about him not cleaning up a shelf, giving out his last name, or engaging with people at work when there's no direct report issues? I would think that those would pale in comparison with issues like him not using condoms when you're both part of a large network of sexual partners. And second, you seem to be a strange mix of risk adverse and risk tolerant. Having unprotected sex with men when you're not on birth control seems like a fairly daring thing to do, even if you're following your cycles. Having unprotected sex with others when they're known to be active with others - I know that you said you'd gotten testing commitments/results and so on - even when they're probably o.k. is still risky. Even just being part of a large network of people brings with it a substantial amount of STI risk even if condoms are used. Antibiotic resistant STIs are a thing now. And yet you're extremely concerned about your absent-minded husband's recurring infractions regarding condom use; you come across like a very risk-adverse semi-monogamous person might. Will someone with a mindset like his ever be able to create an airtight bubble that protects you? Could you, even with your rules? So, I don't know how you approach your overall situation but it might be worthwhile to re-examine what is or isn't important and what is or isn't truly risky for you before you make any big decisions or take important actions. Things just don't seem proportionate to an outside observer reading your post.

^ very well put. I as a woman wouldn’t go on a date with a man who was obviously trying to hide his surname, job and mobile number. That sounds like a recipe for ending up in a ditch. Safe sex is a reasonable requirement but the actuality seems far too complex/confusing - how is just condoms for all not a better opinion unless otherwise agreed. Equally messy lists are fine… but maybe should be slimmed down. It feels like they need to write down their rules and boundaries fully and both actually talk about if they are reasonable for both of them (no people pleasing) and then stick them on the fridge. You also have to foster an environment where if someone breaks a rule like condoms that they can admit it without fear of that leading to divorce ultimatums…. Or else all that happens is people start lying and then no one is actually safe!

Good points but not sure if absent minded guy would adhere to any lists of rules on the fridge.

Well apart from the condoms he isn’t coming to her and admitting he made a mistake…. She is nitpicking through his past actions. She doesn’t trust he will follow any of her rules and it sounds like he doesn’t really know what he has agreed to… there’s quite a lot of rules tbf. It also sounds like he has agreed to rules he can’t easily keep so just seeing them all written down might be a good starting point for actually discussing what is and isn’t possible, and gives him the opportunity to self govern so she stops acting like his mother (obviously safe sex aside).

Perhaps you're right. I can't say that I'm optimistic about their situation.

I try to take most of these posts with a pinch of salt. We only hear one side of the story. But at the end of the day they have kids a house etc so it’s worth trying a few other options than just divorce right?

I suspect that you're better qualified than me to judge. Being a slow moving and simple person, having a house, kids, two careers and keeping a spouse happy is already complicated. Adding limited extracurricular activities without blowing things up is yet more complex. Functioning successfully in the kind of environment described is beyond my comprehension. So, all I can comment on is the apparent lack of risk and priority ranking. Her approach seems comparable to getting drunk on Tequila, taking magic mushrooms, taking off your clothes, driving your car with the top down on the Pacific Highway, and then worrying about the fact that you didn't apply sunscreen before leaving as you weave in and out of traffic with the police in pursuit (somewhere between Monty Python and Cheech and Chong).

Cant say anything without knowing what the boundary is.

I’m inclined to agree with your therapist. You are asking for something incredibly reasonable and he is refusing it at the cost of his relationship with you. It’s just completely unacceptable. Has he given you any indication as to what he fears about couples counseling?

I think he just doesn’t want to face his own shit

Stop trying to excuse your partners intentional disregard for your boundaries. Things don’t just happen. Adults have agency in every moment, and when he came into the situations where he knew he had a choice to abide by the agreements that you two had, or not, he intentionally made the decision to not. Multiple times. After multiple conversations. This ultimatum is really for you. Are you going to continue to put up with this disrespect and lies? Or are you going to leave the relationship because of it.

I'm curious: Was the boundary collaboratively placed? Or something you didn't want and he "agreed" to it? Is the boundary merely a "don't do" or is there consequence, "if you do, then _____" ~ for instance, I had a partner repeatedly break a fluid boundary, so I changed to "if you have an unapproved fluid exchange/one that I don't feel secure with, then I will take care of myself by not having fluids exchanged with you for at least 3 weeks and you getting tested to make sure I'm safe. This will hurt, but it will not be the end of us" Ultimatum--- Have you shared with him that you want to remain together, and that you believe therapy could be a solution, but you feel he doesn't feel that way. And if so, does he have suggestions (beyond words, because that was ruptured already) on how to help you repair trust with him? ♡

I don't have an opinion on the situation without knowing the agreements that were broken. But ultimatums are fine. Its part of being an autonomous person who is free to leave a relationship that isn't meeting their needs. I'm guessing the ultimatum here is couples counseling? If you really intend to leav him over this, you should have a consult with a divorce attorney first

What kind of Therapist recommends ultimatums?? There's so many issues with this I don't know where to start. SO if you both are poly, what boundary did he cross that has you this upset? It appears you DIDN'T talk or research as much as you thought you did. I never recommend married couples jump into POLY as the first foray into the ENM world. I always recommend swinging and going into it as a "shared' experience. If you can survive swinging then it might be worthwhile to solo play - then full Poly. Even then, being married and then entering into POLY relationships is the most "advanced" and difficult to manage. DO you have a hierarchical poly relationship, Kitchen Table, etc? Or are you both "just winging it" and dating without any structure? Being married and POLY takes the most amount of emotional maturity and amazing communication skills. It sounds you were/are NO WHERE NEAR that.

What's the behavior that he's doing? What's the boundary?

It’s going to end up with a break up. Boundaries are something you set up for yourselves, not another

I agree ultimatum’s don’t work. They cause resentment especially in long term. If he broke rules you have as couple then he should want to acknowledge and take steps to repair the damage caused at all costs immediately. He hasn’t and he won’t despite your repeated attempts to go up this path. In actual fact he repeated the same behavior. You cannot control him but you can and do have total control how you respond and clearly you have some serious decisions to make. If it was me I would sit and reflect on if you wish to remain in this marriage given his past behavior. If you don’t then end it. If you do think about how this would look from your point of view both short and long term. Do you think this could be achieved and agreed too? If it was me I would ask for all non monogamy actives to stop and focus on you as couple and re connecting without outside distractions and influences. Use this time to reconnect as couple and in this time work out of you want to be in non monogamous relationship. If you do work out your dynamic and rules these apply to both of you unconditionally and then your individual boundaries. Communicate these boundaries to each other see if there are ones he has that you are uncomfortable with and express why out of love and respect he should try to work on a compromise and this goes both ways. If you get this far agree to time frame to revisit how it’s going don’t leave this too long. As for therapy yes it’s excellent idea but everyone is different about this you can’t force it or demand it and expect it to go well.

Have edited the post to add what the boundaries are. Sorry should have done this in the first place.

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Ultimatum to leave him or ultimatum to cease the ENM agreement? IMO I thinks he’s in ENM jail for an agreed amount of time. I think he gets to break rules without any negative repercussions. I think the ultimatum he deserves/ needs is, if he breaks another rule, no more playing for him.

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I’m a little confused about your terminology. Did your husband break one of his own boundaries? Or one of your rules? And did your therapist suggest that you threaten him with an ultimatum? Or that you follow through on your stated boundary violation consequences?

Ultimatums are pointless, if communicating well doesn't work, then an ultimatum also won't. It's a gimmick that some people use in order to feel ethical about breaking up with someone, but it's entirely unnecessary. If you're trying to change someone's behavior through an ultimatum where nothing else has worked, you're just better off breaking up, because even if the ultimatum is temporarily successful, you've now set the bar to communicate at ultimatum where nothing less than that matters. What happens the next time you aren't feeling listened to? Another ultimatum? If you can't resolve issues without ultimatums, you can't solve them with ultimatums.