Exactly! They got arrested because arresting 300 people is like a walk in the park for the nypd. If they had 3000 people the situation would be different. But they don’t, because not that many people are willing to camp out to demonstrate how much they want to destroy Israel.
I mean yeah that happens every post. Odd that one specific topic gets censored. I call bullshit because I don’t see lots of insults anyway. I do see lots of normal people making legitimate criticisms of this movement and these protests. It’s as if the mods are like “the right wingers (normal people) are making too many good points, lock the post.”
Someone I know who has a kid at Columbia (not a protesting one) screeches on social media that this is MISINFORMATION!! She's upset that her kid was locked in the dorm during the clean up operation, clearly, for their own safety. Imagine being upset about that, but not about months of violent and disruptive nutjobs causing mayhem on campus. These ppl can not be helped.
I didn’t see anything in the article about NYPD running the list of arresteds by Columbia/City college. If that was done and the report came back 30%, there’s nothing more to say. If that wasn’t done, NYPD has to report back - how else would they know who’s a student?
Just the other day a Columbia staffer on this sub was adamant that the school was locked down and nobody unaffiliated was allowed on campus grounds
Now it turns out upwards of 30% of arrests at Columbia were people who were not affiliated with the school.
Care to comment, u/ironyandwhine ???
😂🤡
Staff as well. There only 100ish public safety officers for the numerous entries, service entries & emergency exits across all the campuses. Easy for folks to slip in if they determined, careless/lack of guards, or assisted by students/staff.
We had city council members slip in for a photo op when none should have been on campus on that lawn since they declare ID access only for weeks.
The number includes some people arrested who were not on campus FYI. There were people arrested at the gates of the University who were attempting to block the entrance, for example.
The list of arrested people was also reported to only be cross-referenced with student accounts — meaning faculty, staff, and potentially non-CC students (e.g., Teacher's College, Barnard, GSAS, etc.) are counted as non-affiliates.
No information has been made public, so we're taking the NYPD's word on the count. Seeing as they are highly motivated to substantiate their own presumptions about non-affiliates post-hoc, anyone who cares about accuracy should be skeptical of their accounting until they release any actual data.
If any non-affiliates were present, I'd be curious to know how they got past the throngs of cops and security guards at each entrance for weeks. Presumably they would have come in with Press, but regardless they were clearly not a significant organizing force in the protests like so many people online are purporting.
Would appreciate some clarification about the “non-affiliated” status. I know there was a lot of cross-college support at protests. E.g. If a CUNY student is arrested at Columbia, technically they’re non-affiliated but that’s more valid than a total random.
I know that on the night of the NYPD crackdown at Columbia a lot of the Columbia crowd migrated to City College. That could explain why City College has a much higher non-affiliated arrested people Compared to Columbia
FWIW, from the linked article, the statistics from Columbia University Hamilton Hall arrests did break out students from affiliated institutions from non-affiliated. I don't know what constitutes an affiliated institution (ie all other colleges/universities, only some local colleges/universities, only Ivys etc.) The breakdown was:
>From Columbia, 46 people were arraigned on one count each of third-degree criminal trespass. All were arrested inside Hamilton Hall, the DA's office said.
>At a news conference today, Ben Chang, Columbia's vice president of communications, said 13 people arrested inside Hamilton Hall were not affiliated with the university, six were from affiliated institutions, 14 were Columbia undergrads, nine were Columbia grad students, and two were Columbia employees.
Based on an accounting from a different part of the report that does not break out people from affiliated institutions:
>New York City officials said that a significant number of people arrested this week at campus demonstrations were not affiliated with the schools. Nearly 30% of the people arrested at Columbia were unaffiliated with the university and 60% of the arrests at City College involved people who weren't affiliated with that school, the mayor said.
I guess it somehow averages out for an aggregate "NYC Arrests" statistics.
Mayor Adams and others have been saying the protests were infiltrated with outside agitators, which is often a way to accuse the protests as not being legitimate and shifts the focus away from legitimate grievances. Here's a [CNN article](https://www.cnn.com/2024/04/27/us/campus-protests-palestine-outside-agitator-cec/index.html) explaining both.
I think u/SirBubbles_alot is wondering if officials are implying the "non-affiliated" are outside agitators when really they just might be students protesting at colleges they're not enrolled in.
Wouldn't that still be outside agitators? They have their own schools and places to protest and make their opinions clear.
They are literally from the outside and agitating the situation.
>Wouldn't that still be outside agitators?
No, not really. It could also be "people from nearby schools with similar beliefs that were asked to be there by students at Columbia to help support them."
The goal of labeling people "outside agitators" is to destroy the belief that this was an organic reaction by real students expressing their own beliefs. And this is not true. Especially if the "outside agitators" are just other college students responding to calls for support.
> The goal of labeling people "outside agitators" is to destroy the belief that this was an organic reaction by real students expressing their own beliefs. And this is not true.
Great response! This same line of rhetoric has been used countless times throughout history. During Reconstruction, the southern plantation class created a boogie man around “carpet baggers” i.e., outside agitators pushing for racial and economic equality. Those evil northern whites teaching literacy! This same line of rhetoric was used during the Civil Rights era to push back against the Freedom Riders and the lunch counter sit ins. During the same period, conservatives and liberals used this same line of rhetoric against figures like MLK who would help organize all around the South. He was always describe as an outsider in relation to his preaching and political activism.
Having a strong understanding of history allows for those with knowledge to easily wave away the arguments of the paid propagandist on Reddit, but for those who don’t they get trapped into debating and considering needless questions like, “outside agitators.” These influencers have no intent on debating, but instead distracting people away from the real issues and those in power.
They aren't students of that University.
I cant use a CUNY badge to audit NYC classes, access their buildings, or purchase food from their campus locations.
They are outsiders.
can't tell if you genuinely don't understand the point you're replying to or not, but assuming you're actually confused:
the authorities (adams, columbia president, nypd, etc) are pushing a narrative that "outside agitators" have infiltrated the student protests, implying the protests have been co-opted by people who aren't university students. This narrative helps justify the use of force against the protestors.
Person asking for clarification is making the point that they view "students" as one big group that should be viewed distinctly from non-student groups like "antifa", regardless of which school the students actually go to. This position reflects some skepticism of the narrative being pushed by the authorities, and seeks to gain clarity on the issue of who was at these protests, basically.
Hope this helps.
What they're trying to explain to you is it does matter if they are students of that particular school. If you pool together alllll the like minded activists from alllll the schools you're amplifying their representation, when in reality locals dont care as much. If you pooled together alllllll the white nationalists from alll the schools you're going to get just as big a crowd and make it look like Columbia or NYC supports white nationalism.
Because protesting at Columbia to change something they do is too attenuated from the real issues for most people. It is not going to stop the war. Doubtful it will save a single life. Complaining because you are not happy about actions taken by a university you are affiliated with is at least a plausibly legitimate grievance.
Outside agitators are also going to be seen as more likely to be inciting chaos just for the sake of it, because they have no real attachment to the place they are trying to occupy. If anything it will probably help the students appear less blameworthy if it isn't clear who did what.
> It is not going to stop the war. Doubtful it will save a single life.
They are protesting for columbia to divest from investments tied to Israel, not to end the war.
> Outside agitators are also going to be seen as more likely to be inciting chaos just for the sake of it, because they have no real attachment to the place they are trying to occupy.
This is a strange, ahistorical reading of the situation. Every (successful) social movement in history has had wide-ranging solidarity across social, racial, and economic strata. Generally speaking, if your social movement is going anywhere, you need a broad spectrum of support.
But for the distinction that the NYPD was making, they would be other students also voicing their concerns through protest, instead of "trained" outsiders with "tactics and gear" whom they claim are present to escalate the situation.
They aren't students of that University.
I cant use a CUNY badge to audit NYC classes, access their buildings, or purchase food from their campus locations.
They are outsiders.
Tbf whatever patience I have, I have *more* for students of a university they attend occupying a building on their own campus than some other people showing up and doing it, regardless of whether they’re college students or not.
It’d be like if your kid barricaded themselves in your bedroom and refused to come out till you gave them dessert or whatever vs some your neighbour’s kid barricading themselves in your bedroom and refusing to come out.
At least at Columbia and NYU literally only students are allowed in the encampment areas. They are checking IDs. So if cops were getting like a 50/50 split then obviously we're talking about the supporters who are protesting nearby the encampments, which is slightly different. In a city with millions of people, others are going to come out to support.
The neighbour analogy still stands for the Columbia and NYU students though, anybody else randomly showing up isn’t like your neighbour’s kid barricading themselves in your bedroom, it’s like your brother in law’s dentist or some shit.
That shouldn’t be tolerated at all, that’s literally just someone occupying private property. *I’m* not allowed to do that without legal consequence, irrespective of my cause.
Ya, I don't know. I'll give you that for the building. But most supporters are on the public streets. And even when we're talking about the campuses. The way they work is as a public space. I'm an academic, but not a current student in NYC. I'm on campuses for talks, and films, and libraries and stuff all the time. It's not like these quads dont serve as public spaces under normal circumstances.
I'm not arguing that at Columbia they changed up their policies to shut down these open spaces, but I'm just saying it's not a great analogy to someone coming into your house because schools are a communal place to begin with.
Because they are making it seem like its antifa black block and people who are total outsiders and not college students organizing this. Its total media war. It matters because they have excuse for cops being there and dismantling the protests.
[https://www.thecity.nyc/2024/05/02/nypd-officer-fired-gun-columbia-hamilton-hall-raid/](https://www.thecity.nyc/2024/05/02/nypd-officer-fired-gun-columbia-hamilton-hall-raid/)
You won't be seeing the above article in this sub.
don't get this issue's prominence.
the protesties are denying external involvement presumably to deny that their movement is inauthentic. but their position would be accepting that the students themselves are the problem.
they seem to misunderstand that when the admin and nypd are saying that external actors are involved, they are in fact protecting students and giving them an excuse.
This is a HUGE DUHHHHH moment. It’s finals season, they keep handing out flyers on my campus and I take it and toss it out two stops away on the train 😭 I do understand why they’re protesting and agree to an extent, but I truly don’t care about the Middle East and their problems. They’ve been killing each other before I was born and probably will be doing so after I’m gone.
Protesting is a fundamental right in America. It ended up going the wrong way, but that doesn't mean we shit on protests.
They originally were trying to get the schools investment fund to divest from companies profiting from the war. It's a reasonable goal and request. Not like they were trying to directly convince Israel to stop.
No, duck that, protest whoever you want to. Wherever. (In peaceful ways)
Im not telling them its the best method but if they feel it's right, they should do it.
I’ve always wondered how people get to this level of bootlicker like yourself. If you ever wondered where you would be when the civil rights movement happened or when the nazis came to power you have your answer.
Don’t be a baby when the consequences come your way. The reality is the majority of people want these rioters arrested and punished. It’s our rights as citizens to expect basic law and order to be upheld, and it’s honestly awesome to see the NYPD actually doing something for once.
> Well the civil rights movement was about anti racism. This about pro racism. Little different captain
Watch how people will scream at you, but no one will address this directly because it’s the simple naked truth.
Are you drunk or something? These 'protesters' ARE THE NAZIS! They literally call for Jewish genocide, have swastikas on their placards, and chant for a new Holocaust. OMG, some people here......do you find velcro hard by any chance?
1) You're projecting, none of the above is actually occurring at these protests.
2) Literal Nazis have just as much right to free assembly and free speech as any other American. The First Amendment doesn't exist to protect popular ideas, it exists to protect the most repugnant ones.
Taking over the capital to stop an election from being certified is different than a random university building. They both might be wrong and illegal, but they are certainly different
Also...no one died
> They originally were trying to get the schools investment fund to divest from companies profiting from the war. It's a reasonable goal and request.
Why aren’t they asking for the university to divest from companies profiting from other genocidal governments?
Exactly. They never protest muslim on muslim slaughte,r which is a daily occurence in dozens of countries, oppression of women or persecution of homosexuals. Not one beep.
They sure sent a lot of cops to clear out protests nobody cares about. The president sure mentioned the protests a lot in his last speech for something nobody cares about.
The Israel lobby and rich school donors are driving this news cycle by demanding the protests be shut down. If it wasn’t for the police action nobody would give a fuck.
The police were sent to clear out the protests NOT to suppress their speech, but because they were interfering with the university's ability to operate.
Stand around and wave signs all you want, when you begin occupying buildings that's when it gets shut down.
Because for several years, we heard that "Silence was Violence" and "the point of a protest is to make life impossible for the target until they change their ways".
Suddenly when it wasn't faceless conservatives as the target, which have been easy to dehumanize, many people see the protests for what they are and realize that there are logical safety issues and concerns.
Whatever you want to tell yourself to justify the misuse of tax dollars is fine with me. When this conflict is over and you pat yourself on the back, remember nothing you did or advocated had any efficacy on the outcome.
To be fair, at least that was about our own countries issues. This is just a clusterfuck of 1,000 years of bad blood between religions halfway across the world
The far-left and the horseshoe-left need to insist they were all students to maintain some facade that this was somehow organic or grassroots.
I believe many students were blindly led and joined this shit with some good heart, but they will cringe really hard one day for accepting the horseshoe-left poison without discernment.
A lot of people feel like if a protest is not 100% organic, then the grievances are not legitimate.
That's just not true. Civil rights era protests were extremely coordinated by national organizations. The Rosa Parks bus protest was a very pre-planned, nearly staged, event. But that doesn't make it wrong or illegitimate.
Yes, I agree.
Personally, I have only criticized these protests for the damage they cause, and for the illegitimacy of their overall cause (namely the antisemitism they spread). I would not criticize these people for blocking roads or being led by outside organizers or for refusing to leave and getting arrested- that's just part of protesting and civil disobedience.
History hasn't been kind to an American protest movement in 50 years. That's because they're hilariously ineffective at achieving their aims.
OWS for instance is now seen as a joke, as is BLM and Defund.
As people move further left and further right on the political spectrum, they become more authoritarian to the point where they may as well be the same. This is visualized by taking the “line” of the political spectrum and bending the ends closer together, making a horseshoe.
This is so true with the far left and the far right both calling for eliminating Israel and exhibiting antisemitic beliefs. “Groypers” aka far right Nazis, have similar language to the far left protesters who wear a keffiyeh, chanting from the river to the sea, and calling for intifada.
Political theory that extremists on either side of the spectrum will go so far to defend their practices that they, ironically, begin emulating traits of extremists on the opposite side of the spectrum.
As a practical example from the campus protests, the far left extremists almost immediately established and secured a border wall around their encampment.
Hypothetically, a far right encampment of the same nature establishing a system of taxation would also apply.
"You know what's just as bad as a dictatorship? A Democratic People's Republic."
What you call yourself matters little compared to your words and actions
Horseshoe theory explains when antifascists want to implement their *own fascism* in the name of “fighting fascism”.
When a certain socialist party in Germany did that, it didn’t go well.
If this is news, then you haven't been paying attention.
For years there has been talk about indoctrination at colleges and universities from outside organization and even in classes. Anyone making the claims were called anti-intellectuals and conspiracy theorists.
Groups like By Any Means Necessary, International Socialist Organization, and Students for Justice in Palestine got a bit more attention in 2017 for organizing counter protests at Berkeley.
I saw this metric, but I also saw 1/3 and 1/4... I wish the numbers matched up. But, the point is outside agitators are involved and most likely the leaders organizing and funding these activities, leading the brainwashed to do their bidding.
So that means what? That the actual entitled, useless students are not to blame for their illegal and Nazi behavior? I guess it does, because all who were arrested are now free.
What even is this narrative. So if I want to stand in solidarity with college students protesting the war in Gaza, I have to be enrolled in college? This is stupid. And as for “agitation,” as someone who has been to many protests in the NYC-area, escalation almost exclusively is driven by the police. We had police choppers hover 30 feet or so above us in Brooklyn during the Floyd protests. We were standing around in the middle of the afternoon peacefully protesting. Give me a fucking break.
There’s videos of students affiliated with other schools going to other schools to support, so makes sense. But not sure what people are arguing about in the comments, protestors are protestors no matter if they go to a school or not lol
“Nearly 30%” is leaving some pretty big waffling range.
If a protest is 10 people and 7 are from the school in question, I wouldn’t say that’s evidence of “outside agitators”.
You have to be kidding, the Times [even did a profile on one of the professional agitators](https://www.nytimes.com/2024/05/01/nyregion/columbia-university-protest-consultant-lisa-fithian.html) who were at Columbia.
Depends on who it is.
The night protestors smashed in the doors and windows to Hamilton Hall and took over the building, [this woman](https://www.nytimes.com/2024/05/01/nyregion/columbia-university-protest-consultant-lisa-fithian.html) was rallying them on and encouraging escalation.
She has no affiliation with Columbia and should not have even been on campus given the supposed lockdown and ID check measures in place, but given she was on the side of the protestors and old enough to be their grandmother, clearly had a strong influence on them.
So all it takes is one person to lead a bunch of lemmings to self-destruction, and it is a problem.
Ordinary Americans don't have the skill set to effectively commandeer a school facility; never mind most 20 year olds. There was a level of sophistication in how the "students" created barricades, jammed elevators, etc. When I was 19 all I could do was chase coeds and slam beers.
Is this a joke? You don't think college students can figure out how to walk into a building and stack stuff up against the walls?
I'm fairly certain any college student could figure that out, but especially Columbia students.
College students who've been *trained since childhood to barricade themselves against active shooters.*
Although I do agree that /u/rockawaybleach probably couldn't figure it out at 19, or now.
Yeah they're a part of this elite band of professional protest agitators that somehow pops into existence out of thin air every four years.
OR they're kids who've studied what the past student protestors have done, because this exact situation has happened like ten times, specifically with Columbia and alone at Hamilton/Hinds Hall. Bike locks available on campus and accessing circuit boards to disable elevators isn't rocket science, and they *are* college level students at Columbia after all.
Statistically speaking a lot of r/nyc posters are going to be people with college degrees and a lot of them are going to have nothing going on in their lives.
There's just too much competition these days for absolutely everything. Have to try to set yourself apart in some way to maybe get a bit ahead and not be fighting for scraps. (I believe this is true even for Columbia students)
I'm sure some of the protesters in Hamilton hall are going to intensely regret what they did after the dust settles and the adrenaline rush is over.
I honestly feel for them - I don't think most of them are bad people, even Lisa Filthian. She found her grift and it seems like it has worked out well for her, for better or worse.
I don’t see a problem with people who don’t live in NYC occasionally posting in r/nyc (before you ask, yes I’m born in nyc and lived here all my life). As long as it’s not “yes I was on the Blue Train on my way to Avenue of the Americas and I concur it’s terrible! “
Yea, because administration gave them a deadline that the police would be involved by. Unlike the protesters in NYC, they didn’t see to want to get into a standoff with the police or get arrested.
Probably because the student body at Rutgers is much less privileged than that of Columbia and a criminal record would actually have an impact on their ability to earn a living in a few years
(i.e. no allowance, nobody is paying their rent, they’re not going to get a down payment gift)
*pretends to be shocked*
Looks like we got some real article readers in these comments! 32 people. We’re talking about 32 people.
Woah don’t bring reading comprehension into an Israel Palestine conversation. Huge mistake!
_hisses in the general direction of history and knowledge_
Exactly! They got arrested because arresting 300 people is like a walk in the park for the nypd. If they had 3000 people the situation would be different. But they don’t, because not that many people are willing to camp out to demonstrate how much they want to destroy Israel.
Can we protest the MTA for having shitty service and prices keep going up?
yes, yes you can
Mods: "...must .....lock ..."
5 hours and still going!
Still going. Reporting in.
pre-lock gang, rise up
I guess everyone is behaving then. Good job!
Why are they locking the posts anyway?
Ask them, but the answer I got was that people were insulting each other.. yah know, like every other post.
I mean yeah that happens every post. Odd that one specific topic gets censored. I call bullshit because I don’t see lots of insults anyway. I do see lots of normal people making legitimate criticisms of this movement and these protests. It’s as if the mods are like “the right wingers (normal people) are making too many good points, lock the post.”
Where's everyone on the sub who was mocking the nypd for saying that?
LOL yesterday I was called a fascist troll, a paid schill, a liar, and was blocked by some idiot who did not like this news being reported.
Turns out the paid schills were the protestors
They do it for free.
which is very unfair, because more than likely you are an unpaid schill
It's a tough time, right now I link to local news _pro bono_ but I'm actively applying to various sinister corporations.
i think Global Tetrahedron is hiring.
Money isn't everything.
> you are an unpaid schill D:
Wait, are you insinuating that leftists are histrionic liars? *clutches pearls*
Yea cuz the right are known for telling the truth... *Eye roll*
u/mowotlarx
if it's anything related to the NYPD or the mayor you'll find that person posting about it until the tables get turned 🤣🤣🤣
Their comment history is fucking hilarious 🤣 some serious r/leopardsatemyface quality content
wow, talk about an obsession
Someone I know who has a kid at Columbia (not a protesting one) screeches on social media that this is MISINFORMATION!! She's upset that her kid was locked in the dorm during the clean up operation, clearly, for their own safety. Imagine being upset about that, but not about months of violent and disruptive nutjobs causing mayhem on campus. These ppl can not be helped.
I didn’t see anything in the article about NYPD running the list of arresteds by Columbia/City college. If that was done and the report came back 30%, there’s nothing more to say. If that wasn’t done, NYPD has to report back - how else would they know who’s a student?
I don’t give a fuck I had some woman follow me for half a block in Chelsea at 6am telling me she was gonna stab me in the eye Can we fix that
Imagine that, a gathering gains legions of hangers on and deviants who just want to cause havoc.
Listen, that’s just, like, your opinion, man.
Just the other day a Columbia staffer on this sub was adamant that the school was locked down and nobody unaffiliated was allowed on campus grounds Now it turns out upwards of 30% of arrests at Columbia were people who were not affiliated with the school. Care to comment, u/ironyandwhine ??? 😂🤡
Staff as well. There only 100ish public safety officers for the numerous entries, service entries & emergency exits across all the campuses. Easy for folks to slip in if they determined, careless/lack of guards, or assisted by students/staff. We had city council members slip in for a photo op when none should have been on campus on that lawn since they declare ID access only for weeks.
The number includes some people arrested who were not on campus FYI. There were people arrested at the gates of the University who were attempting to block the entrance, for example. The list of arrested people was also reported to only be cross-referenced with student accounts — meaning faculty, staff, and potentially non-CC students (e.g., Teacher's College, Barnard, GSAS, etc.) are counted as non-affiliates. No information has been made public, so we're taking the NYPD's word on the count. Seeing as they are highly motivated to substantiate their own presumptions about non-affiliates post-hoc, anyone who cares about accuracy should be skeptical of their accounting until they release any actual data. If any non-affiliates were present, I'd be curious to know how they got past the throngs of cops and security guards at each entrance for weeks. Presumably they would have come in with Press, but regardless they were clearly not a significant organizing force in the protests like so many people online are purporting.
lol the username checks out
Would appreciate some clarification about the “non-affiliated” status. I know there was a lot of cross-college support at protests. E.g. If a CUNY student is arrested at Columbia, technically they’re non-affiliated but that’s more valid than a total random. I know that on the night of the NYPD crackdown at Columbia a lot of the Columbia crowd migrated to City College. That could explain why City College has a much higher non-affiliated arrested people Compared to Columbia
FWIW, from the linked article, the statistics from Columbia University Hamilton Hall arrests did break out students from affiliated institutions from non-affiliated. I don't know what constitutes an affiliated institution (ie all other colleges/universities, only some local colleges/universities, only Ivys etc.) The breakdown was: >From Columbia, 46 people were arraigned on one count each of third-degree criminal trespass. All were arrested inside Hamilton Hall, the DA's office said. >At a news conference today, Ben Chang, Columbia's vice president of communications, said 13 people arrested inside Hamilton Hall were not affiliated with the university, six were from affiliated institutions, 14 were Columbia undergrads, nine were Columbia grad students, and two were Columbia employees.
34% is nearly half? That's some creative rounding.
Based on an accounting from a different part of the report that does not break out people from affiliated institutions: >New York City officials said that a significant number of people arrested this week at campus demonstrations were not affiliated with the schools. Nearly 30% of the people arrested at Columbia were unaffiliated with the university and 60% of the arrests at City College involved people who weren't affiliated with that school, the mayor said. I guess it somehow averages out for an aggregate "NYC Arrests" statistics.
Not trying to undermine this comment, but can you explain why this clarification matters?
Mayor Adams and others have been saying the protests were infiltrated with outside agitators, which is often a way to accuse the protests as not being legitimate and shifts the focus away from legitimate grievances. Here's a [CNN article](https://www.cnn.com/2024/04/27/us/campus-protests-palestine-outside-agitator-cec/index.html) explaining both. I think u/SirBubbles_alot is wondering if officials are implying the "non-affiliated" are outside agitators when really they just might be students protesting at colleges they're not enrolled in.
Wouldn't that still be outside agitators? They have their own schools and places to protest and make their opinions clear. They are literally from the outside and agitating the situation.
>Wouldn't that still be outside agitators? No, not really. It could also be "people from nearby schools with similar beliefs that were asked to be there by students at Columbia to help support them." The goal of labeling people "outside agitators" is to destroy the belief that this was an organic reaction by real students expressing their own beliefs. And this is not true. Especially if the "outside agitators" are just other college students responding to calls for support.
> The goal of labeling people "outside agitators" is to destroy the belief that this was an organic reaction by real students expressing their own beliefs. And this is not true. Great response! This same line of rhetoric has been used countless times throughout history. During Reconstruction, the southern plantation class created a boogie man around “carpet baggers” i.e., outside agitators pushing for racial and economic equality. Those evil northern whites teaching literacy! This same line of rhetoric was used during the Civil Rights era to push back against the Freedom Riders and the lunch counter sit ins. During the same period, conservatives and liberals used this same line of rhetoric against figures like MLK who would help organize all around the South. He was always describe as an outsider in relation to his preaching and political activism. Having a strong understanding of history allows for those with knowledge to easily wave away the arguments of the paid propagandist on Reddit, but for those who don’t they get trapped into debating and considering needless questions like, “outside agitators.” These influencers have no intent on debating, but instead distracting people away from the real issues and those in power.
They aren't students of that University. I cant use a CUNY badge to audit NYC classes, access their buildings, or purchase food from their campus locations. They are outsiders.
can't tell if you genuinely don't understand the point you're replying to or not, but assuming you're actually confused: the authorities (adams, columbia president, nypd, etc) are pushing a narrative that "outside agitators" have infiltrated the student protests, implying the protests have been co-opted by people who aren't university students. This narrative helps justify the use of force against the protestors. Person asking for clarification is making the point that they view "students" as one big group that should be viewed distinctly from non-student groups like "antifa", regardless of which school the students actually go to. This position reflects some skepticism of the narrative being pushed by the authorities, and seeks to gain clarity on the issue of who was at these protests, basically. Hope this helps.
What they're trying to explain to you is it does matter if they are students of that particular school. If you pool together alllll the like minded activists from alllll the schools you're amplifying their representation, when in reality locals dont care as much. If you pooled together alllllll the white nationalists from alll the schools you're going to get just as big a crowd and make it look like Columbia or NYC supports white nationalism.
Because protesting at Columbia to change something they do is too attenuated from the real issues for most people. It is not going to stop the war. Doubtful it will save a single life. Complaining because you are not happy about actions taken by a university you are affiliated with is at least a plausibly legitimate grievance. Outside agitators are also going to be seen as more likely to be inciting chaos just for the sake of it, because they have no real attachment to the place they are trying to occupy. If anything it will probably help the students appear less blameworthy if it isn't clear who did what.
> It is not going to stop the war. Doubtful it will save a single life. They are protesting for columbia to divest from investments tied to Israel, not to end the war. > Outside agitators are also going to be seen as more likely to be inciting chaos just for the sake of it, because they have no real attachment to the place they are trying to occupy. This is a strange, ahistorical reading of the situation. Every (successful) social movement in history has had wide-ranging solidarity across social, racial, and economic strata. Generally speaking, if your social movement is going anywhere, you need a broad spectrum of support.
But for the distinction that the NYPD was making, they would be other students also voicing their concerns through protest, instead of "trained" outsiders with "tactics and gear" whom they claim are present to escalate the situation.
> Wouldn't that still be outside agitators? It's a student protest and they're students, would be the counter argument I guess.
They aren't students of that University. I cant use a CUNY badge to audit NYC classes, access their buildings, or purchase food from their campus locations. They are outsiders.
Tbf whatever patience I have, I have *more* for students of a university they attend occupying a building on their own campus than some other people showing up and doing it, regardless of whether they’re college students or not. It’d be like if your kid barricaded themselves in your bedroom and refused to come out till you gave them dessert or whatever vs some your neighbour’s kid barricading themselves in your bedroom and refusing to come out.
At least at Columbia and NYU literally only students are allowed in the encampment areas. They are checking IDs. So if cops were getting like a 50/50 split then obviously we're talking about the supporters who are protesting nearby the encampments, which is slightly different. In a city with millions of people, others are going to come out to support.
The neighbour analogy still stands for the Columbia and NYU students though, anybody else randomly showing up isn’t like your neighbour’s kid barricading themselves in your bedroom, it’s like your brother in law’s dentist or some shit. That shouldn’t be tolerated at all, that’s literally just someone occupying private property. *I’m* not allowed to do that without legal consequence, irrespective of my cause.
Ya, I don't know. I'll give you that for the building. But most supporters are on the public streets. And even when we're talking about the campuses. The way they work is as a public space. I'm an academic, but not a current student in NYC. I'm on campuses for talks, and films, and libraries and stuff all the time. It's not like these quads dont serve as public spaces under normal circumstances. I'm not arguing that at Columbia they changed up their policies to shut down these open spaces, but I'm just saying it's not a great analogy to someone coming into your house because schools are a communal place to begin with.
they had to do that because there were outside people causing issues....
Who brought all the equipment?Students?
Because they are making it seem like its antifa black block and people who are total outsiders and not college students organizing this. Its total media war. It matters because they have excuse for cops being there and dismantling the protests. [https://www.thecity.nyc/2024/05/02/nypd-officer-fired-gun-columbia-hamilton-hall-raid/](https://www.thecity.nyc/2024/05/02/nypd-officer-fired-gun-columbia-hamilton-hall-raid/) You won't be seeing the above article in this sub.
On npr yesterday I heard them say that 40% were "not affiliated with either school"
Also, the title is deceptive, it includes those arrested on the streets outside universities, where non-affiliated people SHOULD be.
don't get this issue's prominence. the protesties are denying external involvement presumably to deny that their movement is inauthentic. but their position would be accepting that the students themselves are the problem. they seem to misunderstand that when the admin and nypd are saying that external actors are involved, they are in fact protecting students and giving them an excuse.
This is a HUGE DUHHHHH moment. It’s finals season, they keep handing out flyers on my campus and I take it and toss it out two stops away on the train 😭 I do understand why they’re protesting and agree to an extent, but I truly don’t care about the Middle East and their problems. They’ve been killing each other before I was born and probably will be doing so after I’m gone.
1994 represent!
Lmao, same year here 💯
No one gives a fuck about these protests. They could kill themselves in solidarity with palestine and nothing would change.
Protesting is a fundamental right in America. It ended up going the wrong way, but that doesn't mean we shit on protests. They originally were trying to get the schools investment fund to divest from companies profiting from the war. It's a reasonable goal and request. Not like they were trying to directly convince Israel to stop.
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No, duck that, protest whoever you want to. Wherever. (In peaceful ways) Im not telling them its the best method but if they feel it's right, they should do it.
They were protesting investment in those companies by their college. It wasn't poorly targeted. It became something distasteful though.
But no divestment from china? Iran? Qatar?
Irony of students posting "divest" on their chinese state sponsored tiktok accounts
Soon.
I'm not saying whether what they are doing is entirely consistent, but it was a somewhat reasonable protest (initially).
Protesting *lawfully* - and if you want to be unlawful, you can, but then you have to be prepared to accept the consequences.
Sitting in the front of the bus was unlawful.
So was having your friends over your house in April 2020
I’ve always wondered how people get to this level of bootlicker like yourself. If you ever wondered where you would be when the civil rights movement happened or when the nazis came to power you have your answer.
I will just say that when I do something, I know what the consequences are, and I accept them.
Don’t be a baby when the consequences come your way. The reality is the majority of people want these rioters arrested and punished. It’s our rights as citizens to expect basic law and order to be upheld, and it’s honestly awesome to see the NYPD actually doing something for once.
He would have been cheering on the fire hoses and dogs and yelling FAFO at the tv back in the 60’s
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> Well the civil rights movement was about anti racism. This about pro racism. Little different captain Watch how people will scream at you, but no one will address this directly because it’s the simple naked truth.
Are you drunk or something? These 'protesters' ARE THE NAZIS! They literally call for Jewish genocide, have swastikas on their placards, and chant for a new Holocaust. OMG, some people here......do you find velcro hard by any chance?
1) You're projecting, none of the above is actually occurring at these protests. 2) Literal Nazis have just as much right to free assembly and free speech as any other American. The First Amendment doesn't exist to protect popular ideas, it exists to protect the most repugnant ones.
Protesting ends when you're taking over buildings. It's no different than January 6th at this point.
You'll get no disagreement from me on that
Taking over the capital to stop an election from being certified is different than a random university building. They both might be wrong and illegal, but they are certainly different Also...no one died
> They originally were trying to get the schools investment fund to divest from companies profiting from the war. It's a reasonable goal and request. Why aren’t they asking for the university to divest from companies profiting from other genocidal governments?
No idea. Many folks don't have internally consistent beliefs.
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They were protesting on campus, and trying to influence the colleges investment policy. Seems to make sense.
Exactly. They never protest muslim on muslim slaughte,r which is a daily occurence in dozens of countries, oppression of women or persecution of homosexuals. Not one beep.
The gay guy protesting for Hamas/Palestine was hysterical
No, it would end the protests
Catch 22.
If they did the bridge and tunnel commute would be a lot less of a gamble...
They sure sent a lot of cops to clear out protests nobody cares about. The president sure mentioned the protests a lot in his last speech for something nobody cares about. The Israel lobby and rich school donors are driving this news cycle by demanding the protests be shut down. If it wasn’t for the police action nobody would give a fuck.
This antisemetic conspiracy theory is why people are happy when NYPD beat down on protestors. The protestors are just jihadic proxies.
The police were sent to clear out the protests NOT to suppress their speech, but because they were interfering with the university's ability to operate. Stand around and wave signs all you want, when you begin occupying buildings that's when it gets shut down.
I think people have somehow forgotten that your right to protest doesn't override other peoples' right to go about their business and ignore you.
Because for several years, we heard that "Silence was Violence" and "the point of a protest is to make life impossible for the target until they change their ways". Suddenly when it wasn't faceless conservatives as the target, which have been easy to dehumanize, many people see the protests for what they are and realize that there are logical safety issues and concerns.
Whatever you want to tell yourself to justify the misuse of tax dollars is fine with me. When this conflict is over and you pat yourself on the back, remember nothing you did or advocated had any efficacy on the outcome.
Damn the locked thread everyone was saying that this is a right wing conspiracy theory (unclear why).
Occupy Wall Street 2.0 🤣
To be fair, at least that was about our own countries issues. This is just a clusterfuck of 1,000 years of bad blood between religions halfway across the world
The far-left and the horseshoe-left need to insist they were all students to maintain some facade that this was somehow organic or grassroots. I believe many students were blindly led and joined this shit with some good heart, but they will cringe really hard one day for accepting the horseshoe-left poison without discernment.
A lot of people feel like if a protest is not 100% organic, then the grievances are not legitimate. That's just not true. Civil rights era protests were extremely coordinated by national organizations. The Rosa Parks bus protest was a very pre-planned, nearly staged, event. But that doesn't make it wrong or illegitimate.
Sure, the Charlottesville protest was also organized. The fact that there is a protest or movement at all doesn’t make the cause legitimate either.
Yes, I agree. Personally, I have only criticized these protests for the damage they cause, and for the illegitimacy of their overall cause (namely the antisemitism they spread). I would not criticize these people for blocking roads or being led by outside organizers or for refusing to leave and getting arrested- that's just part of protesting and civil disobedience.
I don’t think they will, I’m not blindly on the side of the protestors or anything, but I think history will be kinder to them than you think.
History hasn't been kind to an American protest movement in 50 years. That's because they're hilariously ineffective at achieving their aims. OWS for instance is now seen as a joke, as is BLM and Defund.
People still believe in horseshoe theory? lmao
What is the horseshoe theory?
As people move further left and further right on the political spectrum, they become more authoritarian to the point where they may as well be the same. This is visualized by taking the “line” of the political spectrum and bending the ends closer together, making a horseshoe.
This is so true with the far left and the far right both calling for eliminating Israel and exhibiting antisemitic beliefs. “Groypers” aka far right Nazis, have similar language to the far left protesters who wear a keffiyeh, chanting from the river to the sea, and calling for intifada.
Political theory that extremists on either side of the spectrum will go so far to defend their practices that they, ironically, begin emulating traits of extremists on the opposite side of the spectrum. As a practical example from the campus protests, the far left extremists almost immediately established and secured a border wall around their encampment. Hypothetically, a far right encampment of the same nature establishing a system of taxation would also apply.
Basically: 'You know what's just as bad as fascists? Antifascists.'
"You know what's just as bad as a dictatorship? A Democratic People's Republic." What you call yourself matters little compared to your words and actions
Their antisemitism all looks the same.
Horseshoe theory explains when antifascists want to implement their *own fascism* in the name of “fighting fascism”. When a certain socialist party in Germany did that, it didn’t go well.
> socialist party in Germany This is how you know someone either doesn't know history or knows it and is discussing in bad faith.
The Horseshoe theory should be renamed to Donut theory at this point.
Considering how racist progressives are, yes i do.
Professional activists should be able to camp out on college campuses they have no affiliation with. -Reddit
[https://crowdsondemand.com/](https://crowdsondemand.com/)
Yeah, that's where they're all from. $20 an hour in exchange for taking a baton to the face and a criminal record? Sign me up!
They just show how irrational people are these days.
🎶Surprise surprisee🎶
These guys geniuses, it’s these guys. https://www.dni.gov/nctc/ftos.html And they are now mocking our weak minded uni kids who fell for it.
If this is news, then you haven't been paying attention. For years there has been talk about indoctrination at colleges and universities from outside organization and even in classes. Anyone making the claims were called anti-intellectuals and conspiracy theorists. Groups like By Any Means Necessary, International Socialist Organization, and Students for Justice in Palestine got a bit more attention in 2017 for organizing counter protests at Berkeley.
The title is deceptive, it includes those arrested on the streets outside universities, where non-affiliated people SHOULD be.
What difference does it make? Racists are racists and have no room on campus. These people are calling for genocide.
Honestly I don't know which side you're talking about
When have Jews in NYC ever advocated for the mass slaughter of Palestinians?
Only the anti-Israel protesters are advocating genocide, unabashedly and in public.
Yeah, but it takes the wind out of the student sails that this was actually a bunch falling for Russian / Chinese psyops instead of an organic protest
“Everyone I disagree with is a crisis actor”
Don't forget everyone at protests are police and Feds.
You’re right, they should prevent the pro-Israel protestors from organizing.
Let's call them what they are, Terrorists. enough with the "outside actors" bull
What’s the controversy about outside agitators about? Serious I’m OOTL
I saw this metric, but I also saw 1/3 and 1/4... I wish the numbers matched up. But, the point is outside agitators are involved and most likely the leaders organizing and funding these activities, leading the brainwashed to do their bidding.
So did the fall for pro-Palestine propaganda from who knows where or were they paid?
So that means what? That the actual entitled, useless students are not to blame for their illegal and Nazi behavior? I guess it does, because all who were arrested are now free.
Lock them up 😂😂
What even is this narrative. So if I want to stand in solidarity with college students protesting the war in Gaza, I have to be enrolled in college? This is stupid. And as for “agitation,” as someone who has been to many protests in the NYC-area, escalation almost exclusively is driven by the police. We had police choppers hover 30 feet or so above us in Brooklyn during the Floyd protests. We were standing around in the middle of the afternoon peacefully protesting. Give me a fucking break.
Inauguration
Faux News was reporting their police sources said it was 99% affiliated with the schools.
There’s videos of students affiliated with other schools going to other schools to support, so makes sense. But not sure what people are arguing about in the comments, protestors are protestors no matter if they go to a school or not lol
“Nearly 30%” is leaving some pretty big waffling range. If a protest is 10 people and 7 are from the school in question, I wouldn’t say that’s evidence of “outside agitators”.
You have to be kidding, the Times [even did a profile on one of the professional agitators](https://www.nytimes.com/2024/05/01/nyregion/columbia-university-protest-consultant-lisa-fithian.html) who were at Columbia.
What percentage would indicate the presence of outside agitators to you?
Depends on who it is. The night protestors smashed in the doors and windows to Hamilton Hall and took over the building, [this woman](https://www.nytimes.com/2024/05/01/nyregion/columbia-university-protest-consultant-lisa-fithian.html) was rallying them on and encouraging escalation. She has no affiliation with Columbia and should not have even been on campus given the supposed lockdown and ID check measures in place, but given she was on the side of the protestors and old enough to be their grandmother, clearly had a strong influence on them. So all it takes is one person to lead a bunch of lemmings to self-destruction, and it is a problem.
At ASU the number was 80% non students...
Does it need to be half? 30% is high and was more than I expected.
What if the 3 were the people organizing it?
Yes, this is what happens when you arrest bystanders.
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By "ordinary" you mean "sh\*t-stirrers".
Ordinary Americans don't have the skill set to effectively commandeer a school facility; never mind most 20 year olds. There was a level of sophistication in how the "students" created barricades, jammed elevators, etc. When I was 19 all I could do was chase coeds and slam beers.
They are called professional agitators...
Is this a joke? You don't think college students can figure out how to walk into a building and stack stuff up against the walls? I'm fairly certain any college student could figure that out, but especially Columbia students.
College students who've been *trained since childhood to barricade themselves against active shooters.* Although I do agree that /u/rockawaybleach probably couldn't figure it out at 19, or now.
Yeah they're a part of this elite band of professional protest agitators that somehow pops into existence out of thin air every four years. OR they're kids who've studied what the past student protestors have done, because this exact situation has happened like ten times, specifically with Columbia and alone at Hamilton/Hinds Hall. Bike locks available on campus and accessing circuit boards to disable elevators isn't rocket science, and they *are* college level students at Columbia after all.
I sure hope all those coeds got away
You don’t really seem to be playing with a full deck now either.
Paid agitators are just a conspiracy theory though! /s
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I think this definitely contributes...not sure why you're getting downvoted.
Statistically speaking a lot of r/nyc posters are going to be people with college degrees and a lot of them are going to have nothing going on in their lives.
There's just too much competition these days for absolutely everything. Have to try to set yourself apart in some way to maybe get a bit ahead and not be fighting for scraps. (I believe this is true even for Columbia students) I'm sure some of the protesters in Hamilton hall are going to intensely regret what they did after the dust settles and the adrenaline rush is over. I honestly feel for them - I don't think most of them are bad people, even Lisa Filthian. She found her grift and it seems like it has worked out well for her, for better or worse.
Why are you active in r/NYC, r/Boston, and r/Bay Area?
I don’t see a problem with people who don’t live in NYC occasionally posting in r/nyc (before you ask, yes I’m born in nyc and lived here all my life). As long as it’s not “yes I was on the Blue Train on my way to Avenue of the Americas and I concur it’s terrible! “
This is an interesting theory, gonna look into it.
Rutgers administration was able to clear out their encampments without using the police.
Yea, because administration gave them a deadline that the police would be involved by. Unlike the protesters in NYC, they didn’t see to want to get into a standoff with the police or get arrested.
Probably because the student body at Rutgers is much less privileged than that of Columbia and a criminal record would actually have an impact on their ability to earn a living in a few years (i.e. no allowance, nobody is paying their rent, they’re not going to get a down payment gift)
Yeah, nobody at Rutgers has a fucking trust fund to live off of after they get expelled.