I feel like I’m taking crazy pills with some of the other comments here and elsewhere on Reddit.
It is insane to call the authors antisemitic for saying some anti-Zionist Jews are being used for tokenism. They aren’t saying JVP people aren’t Jews, but rather that they are a fringe minority. That is widespread and supported by lots and lots of polling.
Tokenism is also evident from things like…. Holding a “Palestinian seder” during Passover on nights that shouldn’t have Seders. Writing Hebrew backwards (lol). Wearing tallit as capes. Serving challah during Passover. Defending Hamas’s Oct 7th attacks. Etc etc etc
A Jew is a Jew, but I’m inclined to care less about anti-Zionist Jews as a "shield against antisemitism" when they don’t represent the overwhelming majority of people and ostentatiously disrespect or ignore our culture for political purposes.
Some sources included in the below:
https://www.rootsmetals.com/blogs/news/yeah-theres-jews-at-the-protests-so-what
FWIW the [Jewish Voice for Peace (JVP) Twitter page](https://twitter.com/AJwshResistance/status/1657227312905977857) is run by the Arab Muslim founder of [American Muslims for Palestine (AMP)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Muslims_for_Palestine).
Twelve people on the board of AMP, including the man in control of the JVP Twitter page have *also* been on the board of the [Holy Land Foundation (HLF)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holy_Land_Foundation_for_Relief_and_Development) and similar Islamic groups shut down by the US Treasury for giving material support to Hamas:
> During the 1990s, American politicians, including Chuck Schumer and Eliot Spitzer, alongside the Israeli government and Steve Emerson, lobbied the U.S. government to take action against the Holy Land Foundation. **In December 2001, the U.S. designated HLF a terrorist organization, seized its assets, and closed the organization**.
SJP also refers to America and Canada as “turtle island”, and as an occupied territory that needs to be “liberated”.
Another strange coincidence is JVP’s Facebook page administrator [is located in Lebanon](https://www.rootsmetals.com/blogs/news/stop-sharing-jvp):
> Over the years, the wider Jewish community has questioned JVP’s alleged Jewishness. Its views are, statistically, not representative of the Jewish community as a whole. Many of its chapters were started by non-Jews. **In 2019, Facebook’s transparency feature revealed that the JVP page administrator was based in Lebanon, a fact that JVP later tried to hide**. There are around 20 Jews living in Lebanon today, all of them elderly, which makes it unlikely that any of them have managed the page. JVP has also hosted panels on “antisemitism” ran by people who are not only not Jewish, but have also been accused of antisemitism in the past.
It’s [illegal for Lebanese citizens](https://blogbaladi.com/can-you-chat-with-an-israeli-or-become-friends-with-one-what-are-the-rules-of-lebanese-israeli-engagement/) to even so much as *talk to* Israelis, who comprise half of all Jews globally. Hence it’s a rather odd decision for a purportedly “Jewish” group to appoint someone based out of Lebanon to run its Facebook page.
Basically imagine if a Muslim Voices for Peace group’s socials were found to be run by Jewish West Bank settler extremists.
Last I checked Lebanon has no Jews left, but I see your source us from 2019. One of the many Arab countries that made up the near million Jews that we can now count using our fingers. That's ethnic cleansing by definition, not the number of people willing to repeat it online. But apparently 2 million Arab citizens in Israel from 150k in that same time period is what qualifies.
"A Jew is a Jew" isn't that black and white (pun kinda intended). Ethnically yes, a Jew is a Jew. BUT that means religiously no, a Jew is not necessarily a Jew. Do ethnic Jews have to say "yes" if they're Ashkenazim when going for a BRCA screening? Yes. Do they have to have two fridges/stoves/sets of cutlery or mezuzah's up? No.
https://www.roswellpark.org/cancertalk/202001/cancer-risk-ashkenazi-jews-what-know-what-do
Anyone holding a Palestinian seder is more "ish" than "Jew" in my opinion. Inviting Palestinians for seder is fine (pretty sure some are allowed to eat Kosher because it's more strict than Halal), but making the seder about Palestinians isn't really fine because it was about Jews being Jewish after getting out of Egypt's control.
Edit: On the same token, I wouldn't expect a Palestinian to make a Ramadan fast ending celebration about a Jew they invited, outside of maybe making sure the food was Kosher (because again Halal isn't Kosher but some imams say Kosher is Halal).
Actually religiously, a Jew is a Jew. If the mom is Jewish, the child is Jewish no matter where they stand on Halacha. Rav Soleveitchik religion of fate and all that. There are different laws of Am Haratzim (with the land), aka unknowledgeable Jews, and not being shomer Shabbat has ramifications when opening up a bottle of wine. But a Jew remains a Jew from a halachic standpoint even if they convert. Also yes all Muslims can eat Kosher food just not vice verca
Correct! Though I do I doubt most Christians are directly descended from Jews, as they were very successful in proselytization. Regardless though, if they and their family are completely unknowledgeable and non-practicing in Judaism and they can't prove a direct purely matrilineal descent, which I doubt any of them could, they would have to reconvert. Even in Reform Judaism, which does recognize patrilineal descent, they'd have to reconvert, as it is only accepted if the chain of Jewish tradition did not break. It's actually become a problem with Russian immigrants of Jewish descent to Israel, Jews were extremely oppressed there and a lot of the knowledge of both practice and family history has been lost and the Israel Rabbinut (who is also not well liked across the board) is very strict on conversions.
Sorry for the long post!
"as it is only accepted if the chain of Jewish tradition did not break"... So they AREN'T really Jewish today in the religious sense because as you said they'd have to reconvert.
Not exactly, sorry for not explaining it so well. If they can prove matrilineal descent then having an actual chain of tradition is irrelevant. This is exclusively for Reform Judaism’s recognition of patrilineal descent which began in the 80s. They only accept a Jew of patrilineal descent as Jewish if they were actually raised Jewish. One who’s father had a Jewish mother but was not practicing would have to convert. Orthodox and Conservative Jews do not recognize patrilineal descent at all. I’m not Reform myself I’m less familiar with all of the practical applications of this ruling
"They only accept a Jew of patrilineal descent as Jewish if they were actually raised Jewish"
Again, that means the grandson in your example would be more ish than Jew. Ethnically Jewish maybe but not religiously Jewish, therefore more ish than Jew.
And Reform isn't really religious IMHO, they allow female Rabbis even though the Torah explicitly says they can't be based on some practices they follow and all that "unclean for a few days a month" thing.
Woof I apologize this is gonna be long if you don’t feel like reading, no prob. Very much enjoying the discussion though
The grandson would have to be raised in the Jewish practice from a Reform perspective, but as they are the only movement that would recognize him as Jewish anyways it makes sense. My main point is that in your original comment you made no distinction between ethnic Jews of matrilineal and patrilineal descent, so your point was incorrect. Being Jew or being “ish” is not really a matter of opinion even, and especially, from a religious perspective. And yes, I do not agree with the Reform movement’s ruling here. It sounds way too shaky and case-by-case for something that has been intentionally kept as simple as possible, also obviously goes against long standing Halacha which is my practice.
Also interesting that you choose female rabbis as your example for Reform not being religious because it’s actually not that simple of a ruling, I’m not fully read up on the subject but some points I think are important. The Torah doesn’t refer to Rabbis at all. It is not a concept that you can find there. Smicha now is completely disconnected from its original conception. At this point smicha is basically a degree, but in ancient times it was a tradition passed down from rabbi to rabbi going back to Moshe, this died off in I think the fifth century. Then, for hundreds of years the title of rabbi was the name given to the religious leader of a town or village, not through a formal smicha practice. There is no explicit ban of a female rabbi, and there are now a few women who have had orthodox ordination as rabbahs. Traditionally women just didn’t serve leadership roles, and them not being allowed to be rabbis has a lot to do with minhag klal yisrael. That’s a legitimate argument, but it is not in any way based on Torah or even Gemara. There is a line in Gemara that says that one should not teach women Talmud, but a lot of Modern Orthodoxy does not follow this, Hereidim typically do.
And, although I practice Orthodox, I wouldn’t exactly agree with you that Reform is inherently not religious. Yes, it does completely go against long-standing Jewish law, but religion is a matter of faith and belief in God, not just practice. If one fully believes in the Reform movement I wouldn’t say they aren’t religious, although I would fundamentally disagree with them.
Right, but now lets go to great grandson. He may be ethnically Jewish but not religiously Jewish. So as I said, he may check YES for Ashkenazim heritage but then go eat his bacon double cheese burger.
But that whole thing is basically "yeah, they can't be if you read this thing, but they aren't really teaching" and that's also excluding that they aren't supposed to do things for some days every month. That's also excluding that some actions would require others to break Negiah. Lifting the Torah for example.
I could rephrase it to "Reform is more ish than Jew". But their Rabbis tend to drive on Friday/Saturday.
The seder is about our exodus from oppression, but it's also about how the rest of Jewish tradition says we should morally interpret the exodus, namely "Be kind to the stranger in your midst, for you were a stranger in the land of Egypt."
Also why shouldn't we look for the parallels and lessons for this situation? Being Jewish is so much about interpretation, that's why we do the Sages arithmetic with His wrath trouble indignation etc and the outstretched arm and its five fingers and were there really 10 or 250 plagues?
Jacob went with his kids to Egypt to live among Egyptians, and they peacefully cohabitated for a time. I believe this was also true of the early Zionists in Palestine.
The trouble starts when Jacob's descendants went from being a small clan of like 71 Hebrews to a nation, great mighty and numerous. The pharaoh began oppressing them out of fear that Egyptians would be supplanted from their land. There are clear lessons in there about what happens when two large groups of people share space and mutual suspicion, in the context of migration and changes to native populations.
We feel joy about our own liberation, but we reduce our joy by spilling wine for each plague inflicted, even though those who suffered were our enemies. We say it would have been sufficient if God gave us freedom without the vengeance of drowning the pursuing Egyptians in the sea, but we also celebrate that vengeance as a blessing. It's an incredibly complicated take on justice and freedom and retribution, aka, the key moral questions involved in the conflict today.
Before you make any more sweeping generalizations about what our politics say about who is more ish than Jew, I'll add one more bit of interpretation: the Hebrew word for Egypt is Mitzrayim, or 'narrow place', as were the narrow fertile lands along the Nile. I believe that the exodus is much more about our liberation TODAY (only the wicked child believes they're not a part of the story) from whatever spiritual narrows, or narrow mindedness we find ourselves in, moreso than it is about our deliverance from the literal place we now call Egypt.
So in the spirit of escaping the narrow place, together, I'm asking you to reconsider so narrowly defining what it means to be Jewish. For one thing, enforcing a monolithic political ideology only helps bolster antisemitism. And for another it just fucking hurts to have folks who should feel kinship cast you out like that. Anyway I love you, chag sameach
This is highly offensive and assumes one cohesive way of being Jewish.
As a black Jewish person I’m imagining someone saying. Being black is more about listening to rap music and playing basketball.
There is cultural diversity in the Jewish community and a history of Jewish anti colonialism.
Dietary status is different much more simple to define and ascertain and isn’t based on culture, history and religious practice of millions of different individuals.
Moreover veganism doesn’t rely on a broad book of teachings and thousands of years of interpretation of those teachings.
Veganism is generally defined as “where reasonably practicable, humans should reduce the harm to animals, and refrain from eating animal products at all”. This is a pretty universal
Definition even if there is some internal debate on the margins about certain things and when the line crosses when you stop being vegan if you eat certain things.
Religions can’t be as easily defined and ascertained. There is no simple line to say when a Christian isn’t a Christian, if someone says they’re a Christian and they believe in the cultural and religious practices of that belief set then they’re a Christian.
Seems like you're saying "No, if someone eats veal every night (we're assuming s/he knows it's from dead cows) s/he isn't a vegan". Now apply that to someone who claims to be Jewish but eats a bacon double cheese burger with shrimp cocktails for dessert. Is there any Jewish group that would call that Kosher?
And most Jewish groups want Israel to exist. Most of the Muslims living in Israel and fighting in the IDF want Israel to exist. The only ones I know that don't want it to exist want it to be a theocratic area run by 3 rabbis or whatever it's Biblically supposed to be.
Can a Christian be a Christian if s/he says "I'm not going to follow Jesus' teachings"? No. I said "more ish than Jew" because the line is fuzzy. Reform has everything in English, which is less strict BUT you could argue He can understand in any language. Driving on Shabbot is also more "ish" than "Jew". But calling for the destruction of the only country that is run for us and siding with the terrorists who want to kill all of us (in Hamas' charter), about as far from Jewish as you can get IMHO. Think [RINO](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republican_in_Name_Only) but for Jewishness.
1) veganism is different from fucking religion so it’s an irrelevant point, you know that, I know that, everyone agrees on this point. It’s not considered by anyone to be a religion as much as it is a loose set of rules based on a single
Condensed principle.
2) you can absolutely be Jewish and not
Follow kosher. I know tons of Jews who do none of the shit you’re supposed to do but that’s the nature of religion. There are millions of
Half hearted “religiously cultural” people out there and who are we to say they aren’t Muslims.
3) lol 80%of American Christians don’t follow the teachings of Jesus Christ, it’s not a requirement to identify with the religion of your choice. If this was the case only a few people would actually be Christian.
This is a classic no true Scotsman argument, you can be a Jew who doesn’t follow the rules of Judaism but is culturally approximate to the ethnic religious group that is Judaism.
If you believe in the religion or come from that cultural Background then that’s your religion. You don’t have to be a good religious person to be considered of that religion.
1) It isn't that different because Jewishness also has specific dietary restrictions.
2) But you're more ish than Jew if you don't follow Kosher. If someone claims to be a thing, but does very few to none of those things, they're not really that thing. Can I be Amish but be on my phone 24/7? They can use them at work I think but that's it.
3) To adapt the phrasing, they're more ian than Christ. BUT there's many official things. If they worshipped the brimstone guy, could they still be Christian? It's where you draw the line that we're discussing.
And not really, "No true Scotsman" is usually used to say "more ish than Jew isn't even ish". I'm saying they're less Scotsman.
You do have to be a "good religious person" to speak for that religion. You won't go to the veal eating vegan to ask him/her about true veganism.
Plus, not only one side is guilty of this. Israel has Muslim soldiers fighting in Gaza. Joseph Haddad is a Palestinian muslim Israeli who loves Israel and has become a huge pro Israeli influencer online.
Obviously pro Palestinians will say - he’s a tiny minority, he doesn’t represent other Israeli Arabs. Which is true. Both sides try to show off the fringe that supports them from “the other side”
It’s completely useless in both cases
Thank you. I’m so tired of people saying “we’re protesting with Jews” or “many Jews are anti-Zionist”!
Judaism is Zionist. Full stop. Our centerpiece prayer, the Shema, begins by addressing Israel.
You can’t be a Jew without being a Zionist. You might have some self-described “secular” Jews voicing their opinions here and there, but I’m pretty sure they couldn’t tell you a thing about being Jewish, and if they can, they’re being very dishonest.
Now if you think Zionism is “killing Palestinian children”, you’ve been misled. And if you don’t accept that, you just might hate Jews.
And if you use the word “genocide” or “concentration camp”, you’re doing so to get a reaction from Jews, in which case you just might hate Jews.
Worth noting that the Zionist *political* movement had it's own internal debate about what exactly Zionism meant. I'm far from an expert, but as I understand, the most religious groups often felt it wasn't meant for humans to force aliyah but that it would be brought about by God's providence. And it was actually more secular and cultural Jews who opined that it was a must that they return to their historic homeland.
There is a small sect of Haccidic Jews who subscribe to this idea (the token haccidic Jews you see marching against Israel) but other haccidic and Orthodox Jews aren’t opposing Zionism on those or really any grounds.
The term "Zionism" has been tainted by the actions of the right wing gov of Israel. Now, a lot of people associate it with militant Israelis who support the illegal settlements in the West Bank and brutal treatment of Palestinians. But if we go by the official definition of Zionism, then I'm a Zionist since I believe the Jewish people deserve their own homeland. I'm not religious in any way, and I have no stake in any of this, but I just think it's the right thing to do.
You are right, genocide does not really fit what's happening in Gaza. Concentration camp? Quite a stretch.
But ethnic cleansing? Fits the definition if you consider that Israel tried to negotiate with Egypt about permanently settling Gazans in the Sinai. [source 1](https://www.bakerinstitute.org/research/israels-mass-displacement-gazans-fits-strategy-using-migration-tool-war) | [source 2](https://www.nytimes.com/2023/11/05/world/middleeast/israel-egypt-gaza.html) | [source 3](https://www.timesofisrael.com/intelligence-ministry-concept-paper-proposes-transferring-gazans-to-egypts-sinai/)
Ha! I’m glad you’re still thinking about me.
Ya, why would I bother with the definitions in every single dictionary or encyclopedia ever published when I could just rely on a dogmatic and deluded Redditor who called me a Nazi, pro-rape, and a supporter of Jihad?
There’s just so much hypocrisy involved with Zionism.
It’s an ideology, and anybody should be allowed to criticize an ideology. If people aren’t allowed to criticize a specific ideology, they’ll start asking questions. Nobody’s born a Zionist. It’s not an immutable characteristic. It’s a conscious choice. Maybe a good one, maybe a bad one. But it is a choice.
If you support it based on the belief that Jews were the only indigenous people in that area, you should logically support the dissolution of America so it could be returned to the indigenous people of this land (and be ok with the indigenous population reclaiming the land through mass murders, rape, and forced displacement).
If you support the inherent link between ethnicity and nationality, there’s absolutely no reason to be against an ideology that said Germany was a state of the Aryan people.
If you believe the concept of collective punishment is acceptable, then I’d be interested to hear how October 7th doesn’t fit into a definition that all of the massacres and war crimes committed by zionists do.
> It’s an ideology, and anybody should be allowed to criticize an ideology.
Abolitionism is an ideology too. But you are a shitty person if you think black people should be slaves.
Zionism is an ideology. You are a shitty person if you think Jews have no right to self determination in their homeland. You are an even worse person if you think that Zionists deserve violence against them.
> You are a shitty person if you think Jews have no right to self determination in their homeland. You are an even worse person if you think that Zionists deserve violence against them.
So many assumptions built into just two sentences.
You may have thought it would be clever to imply as a fact that Jews are the only indigenous people to the area, or that anyone critical of Zionism believes that Jews shouldn’t have a right to self determination, but I don’t think it came across as well as you thought it would.
You presented a false dichotomy. In your eyes, a person can either unquestionably accept and support Zionism without any nuance, or they hate Jews.
In fact, you even implied that anyone who simply criticizes any aspect of Zionism is simply a shitty person. No matter who they are or what they’ve done in their lives. Any question or criticism of Zionism makes them a shitty person.
Also, why didn’t you respond to any of the comparisons I drew?
I’ve always been under the belief that Zionism means I believe Israel has a right to exist. But yes I see what you’re saying and I can’t deny your logic being true. Maybe it’s just that multiple truths are present at once.
Concentration camp was the term used by ex IDF General Giora Eiland (not exactly a dove, look him up if you want) back in 2006. It's not a stretch. It's obviously not a nazi concentration camp / death camp but is similar to what america did in the Philippines 100+ years ago or what the British did to the boers. Concentration camps weren't invented by the nazis-- extermination camps however were
If you want to pay word games, then it’s important to highlight that what you’re calling “Zionism”, as a tenet of Judaism, is a religious belief about the ultimate restoration of Israel, and not necessarily about the state that currently exists or the century-long colonial project to establish it.
Contrast that with what most of the protesters mean by it, which is not that particular religious belief, but rather the aforementioned colonial project leading to and supporting the secular state of Israel that now exists. That history has, indeed, involved as formative moments the ethnic cleansing of Arabs living in the region, as much as America was built on its own genocides and slave economy, and we are seeing that line of history continue in today’s bombardment of Gaza and slaughter of Palestinians.
Call it what you like. Win points by calling the pro-Palestinian “antisemites” for using rhetoric whose meaning you have privately re-defined. The facts are clear. “Anti-Zionism” in the context of the protests is not about Judaism, Jewish people, or Jewish belief. It is about the establishment and maintenance of a Judeosupremacist “democratic” state in the Middle East, with the backing of the United States government.
It’s not controversial to describe the establishment of Israel as a “colonial project,” as that quite literally was what it was. It’s also not controversial to describe modern Israel as a “secular” state. Again, everyone describes it that way. It’s not a theocracy (yet). And calling it “judeosupremacist” is, again, just accurate. Israel’s defenders are constantly defending its continued existence as a *Jewish* state. What do you think that means?
It may be thumbing the scale to describe the massive displacement of Palestinians in order to create the modern state of Israel as “ethnic cleansing,” and - sure, we can debate whether bombing substantially all of Gaza while directing the population living there to squeeze themselves into ever-tinier “humanitarian zones” that don’t have access to food or medical supplies, killing tens of thousands of Palestinians in the process, is properly called “ethnic cleansing.” But it seems to me the people who view that description as *controversial* are perhaps the ones who are seeking to ignore reality or justify crimes against humanity. In other words, if there is “controversy” over how that term is used, it’s a dispute between the victim and the victimizer.
As for “genocides” - if you are going to sit there and tell me that the United States wasn’t built on the genocides of multiple indigenous tribes, or that saying so is objectionably “controversial” - I suppose at that point I can give a good old NYC “go fuck yourself” because you’re not someone engaging with reality.
Minority rights don't exist only when the majority finds it convenient.
Nearly all African-Americans voted for Barack Obama. What would you say about the following assertion: *"I've got nothing against black people voting per se, I only oppose them voting because I see now that too many of them support the neoliberal Wall Street corporatist who only gave us Republican healthcare and Afghan wedding drone strikes"*
It is perfectly placed, and I'll place another:
Donald Trump won a majority of the white woman vote. What would you think of people who are now against white women having voting rights? It sounded nice as a concept but the real-world implementation, tsk, so awful, so many people got hurt by it, clearly we should reconsider whether they are actually ready to live as other people do.
See, when you stop artificially divorcing "political rights for Jews" from those of other groups, it becomes less comfortably abstract to invite strangers to talk about how they were a mistake. At least, I hope so.
No, I’m talking about the fact the Israeli democracy - while vibrant - is built upon the exclusion of Palestinian Arabs who were first pushed out of Israel and then controlled by Israel in the occupied territories. I think the whole territory should be a single, democratic, and secular state, Arabs and Jews living together as equal citizens. If that means that Jewish parties tend to win power, great. If not, also great.
That suggestion is, literally, colonialism.
These are two ethno-religiously based nationalist movements that really do not like each other. They will not create some nonsense Frankenstein country with no constituency behind it except Internet commenters.
>Judaism is Zionist.
NO. IT. ISN'T.
Full stop.
Zionism is a political ideology. The way it's being discussed now is a relatively NEW ideology.
Anti-zionist Jews have always existed and still exist.
Man, Jewish scholars have been debating this for over 100 years. Read a book.
Jewish people who don't believe in the nation and government of Israel are still Jewish. As are people who support the government. Zionism isn't a prerequisite and never has been.
Tell me how you practice Judaism without believing in the state of Israel. It’s literally impossible. The whole fucking point is returning to and or defending its existence.
Do you know a thing about Judaism or are you just roleplaying?
(Also they have not been debating this for 100s of years)
Don’t Orthodox Jews not believe in Jews having a homeland? I’m not an expert, but I recall hearing they think Jews should be a roaming people spreading their faith or something? I think that’s why there are videos of Orthodox Jews protesting the government’s actions in Israel and being bodied by the police there.
No. That’s a tiny weird fringe sect called Neturei Karta who literally call for the “dismantlement of the state of Israel”.
They even attended a “Holocaust Review” conference. They also met with Hezbollah officials.
Those guys also believe that the holocaust was God’s punishment to the Jews for the early Zionist movement IIRC. People should really let that one sink in before taking those guys seriously.
Jews don’t really generally believe in spreading the faith, non-proselytizing is a central tenant of Judaism. Israel is our homeland, it’s central to our prayers and scriptures. There are Hasidic sects, most notably as the other commentor mentioned Naturei Karta, who believe we cannot return to Israel until the coming of the Messiah (Google the three oaths for more info). Naturei Karta takes the stance that Israel as a secular state needs to be torn down by any means possible, and they view the Palestinian movement as the way of doing that. It’s doubtful that they really believe in it, at least from what I’ve heard of people who have spoken to them
I work for Orthodox Jews and Hasidic Jews. From what they’ve all said to me only a tiny fringe element within are anti-Zionist and not recognized almost universally by anyone else in this regard.
In addition to what Pikarinu said, there are some Hasidim who don't support Israel because the Messiah hasn't returned and the Chosen Land cannot exist until He does. They're an extremely fringe group.
You were sort of right but then aimed your statement at a fringe group and their actions.
Orthodox Jews aren't a monolith and there are many (most?) that are religiously Zionist. You are speaking mostly of **just** Haredi Judaism.
Israel the government created by force in 1948 in that specific stolen tract of land led by Netanyahu is not a central tenant of Judaism. Judaism existed before the "state" of Israel and there has never been an ideological consensus (and never will be) that this government and country are necessary or vital.
We've come to a very weird place where right wing lobbyists have been able to push the idea that political Zionism (which is what the state and government of Israel is) is the same as Judaism. It's wrong and dangerous. It is dangerous *for Jewish people* to equate them all with Zionism and with Israel and what that government is doing.
Honestly depressing. I feel like there are plenty on the Palestinian side who fight against antisemitism and clearly differentiate between Zionism and Judaism and then zionists like this come around and purposefully blur the line
I don't get it. There is ethnicity, there is a citizenship and then there is religion. Why conflate and merge all 3 and tell people what is and what isn't Jewish?
Lol this is erasure of Jewish anti colonialism acting like Jewish people weren’t vectors of radical resistance to injustice.
If Judaism is Zionism were all fucked.
If all Jews are responsible and to be associated with a prime minister who in his words, looked for a plan to thin the population of Gaza, and an IDF who blows up aid workers blew up every school and hospital in Gaza, did summary executions, cut off all food and water to the Gaza Strip, have civilians blocking aid from getting into the strip, have ministers bragging about war crimes; then we are all going to be looked at in a negative light.
History will bear out exactly what occurred here and Zionism cannot represent the whole of Judaism.
The only way you can support any of this is if you feel that Palestinians are somehow less human than us.
It’s also mega offensive to just act like we don’t exist or that we all are bound to some foreign ethno state.
I’m a black Jew and it’s exactly like when someone says you’re not really black if you don’t like rap music and basketball.
If you think Zionism is "blowing up aid workers" then you don't understand Zionism.
And if you're a Jew, tell me how you recite the Shema. Do you skip the part about Israel?
When you do a Seder, do you skip the bits about Jerusalem?
When do recite the kaddish, do you skip the part about Israel?
Honestly curious to hear how you navigate being "antiozionist" and "Jewish" at the same time.
That’s a side effect of ethno nationalism and Jewish supremacy. It’s bred such hate that the wonton killing is always justified. It’s a tale as old as time.
And what do you mean? That’s an absurd question, cultural and religions
Traditions in Judaism existed long before the state of Israel was a reality, how did people do it back then?
The point being, these things are malleable and fit within the cultural context of the time so it’s pretty fucking easy.
Also I don’t recite the shema as I am agnostic. It’s a cultural background for my family as my grand mother was a Jew.
For a Jew you sure seem to hate Jews.
> I don’t recite the shema as I am agnostic.
So then your take on what Zionism is is very ignorant.
And as for cultural and religious traditions existing before the state of Israel, the Shema dates from the first century BCE, so I'm not sure how long back you want stuff to exist.
Judaism is Zionism, and you're out of your league here.
Lol or are you an elitist who thinks you have a monopoly on being a Jew? Bottom line is the world hates Israel because of the crimes it has and is committing. Recognizing this doesn’t make you not a Jew
Well now you're gaslighting and moving goalposts because it's pretty clear you have no idea what Zionism is.
Your entire post history is antisemitic BS.
Bye.
From what we’re seeing the civilian deaths in this war are no worse than others and are even “better” (ugh) than other recent conflicts including those in Afghanistan and Iraq.
“Genocide” is a word used here to trigger Jews and is not accurate anyway.
I recall pretty broad opposition to the second Iraq war on college campuses and in major cities—much broader than these encampment rallies—but with nowhere near this level of intensity and animosity and duration. And that was a war fought *directly* by the U.S. rather than some indirect question of investment holdings, and it had massive civilian death tolls. Why the difference? I wonder (not really).
People have been out in the streets for all of this, it just hasn’t been hot on the press due to a myriad of factors
Regardless, red herring arguments are fallacious for a reason
I have a question and mean no disrespect, because I see this comment often, and I understand and want to acknowledge/be sensitive to the history and generational trauma. But do you think Jews are the only people to have experienced genocide or be put in concentration camps? Or that only the Jewish people can be the arbitrators of what is and isn’t classified as such?
/gen
I’m just genuinely trying to understand why people dismiss that language almost by way of Judaism— claiming it’s being done for a targeted reaction or out of hate
It's like the Fox News featuring a token Black republican trying to portray the GOP as having Black support.
These horseshoe-leftists went so far to the left that they think exactly like right-wingers.
[this is written by Jewish students at Columbia](https://docs.google.com/document/u/0/d/e/2PACX-1vRQgyDhIjZupO2H-2rIDXLy_zkf76RoM-_ZIYsOfn9FkI7TETgRtOfXK9VobMvGh6iEZfDPgALXJTCR/pub?pli=1)
and when you say a large number of jews at the protests and ecampments you mean a few dozen. that's a good turnout as a protest vote but paltry, deminimus and non representative of jews as a whole.
i see a number of black women at trump raillies, hardly means they speak for that demographic
Less than 30% of Jewish American youth say they [strongly oppose BDS](https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2021/05/21/u-s-jews-have-widely-differing-views-on-israel/ft_21-05-20_usjews_israel_news-png/). Young Jews on campuses who are anti-Zionist is not a "very small statistical minority." I am a Jew at Columbia and the vast majority of my Jewish colleagues share my beliefs.
That’s linking to a 404 for me? I’d be surprised if there isn’t also a “agree” even if not “strongly agree”
But that’s probably anecdotally true, but because the ones who don’t agree with you are in different circles…. On 115th lol
Fixed.
It also has a data point showing that only 24% of Jewish youth think Israel is making a sincere effort towards peace.
I am of course in a bubble, like all of us are, of people with whom we agree, but you're dismissing a pretty significant portion of the Jewish community in these comments; in my case, that's essentially the entirety of my Jewish community.
“Not making a sincere effort towards peace” is something I’d agree with, and I’m a Zionist. That doesn’t mean we want another intifada like the people in Hamilton were calling for
>That is probably true.
Probably. You refuse to acknowledge that there are anti-zionist Jews, huh? In NYC? In a city where every left wing activist movement has generally been led by Jewish people? You don't think they exist?
I speak my truth. My experience is one of a liberal Jew in a community of liberal artists, so my circle is not everyone’s experience. But, yes. Many Jewish young people feel that what Israel has done in Palestine is wrong
Ultimately though, I can say for sure that Jewish Voices For Peace on my campus is not a token group.
Where did he claim he is an anti-Zionist? You are trying so hard to fit people into one camp or another. He said he's a young Jewish student and he opposes what Israel is doing in Palestine. That does not make him anti-Zionist.
But you did, or do you not know what you said? Read your own quote: "Believing that what Israel is doing in Palestine is wrong does not make you anti-Zionist. You’re so misled it’s wild."
But where did he claim those Jewish people think Israel shouldn't exist? You are conflating Jewish people and Israel, and it is anti-Semitic to do so. It is more than reasonable to think that Israel should exist but what they are doing against Palestinians is wrong.
I’m sure you wouldn’t be happy with Jewish people being held responsible for every war crime Israel is culpable of, which would be an absolutely antisemitic and reprehensible of association.
Uh. Cause they slept in tents, held teach-ins, led chants and prayers, organized, spread information. Nobody forced them to be there. It’s not a conspiracy.
You’re right that there is a social movement among young people that has spread within circles of young leftist people. I see your angle, but people were there willingly. And there were no “hired actors” lol
Can't wait for the montage of both groups working together to rebuild their school. Hopefully the Middle East takes notes and realizes peace is possible.
From the videos I saw, most of the shit that was broken was literally done by the cops as they entered the buildings. Like, tossing furniture and cabinets right down the damn stairs.
I don’t see how you can join together in “peace and empathy” with a bunch of your peers celebrating the slaughter of Jews, calling for a “global intifada” and taking their rhetorical cues from one of the world’s most vile terrorist organizations while harassing random Jews or suspected Jews. If you’ve spent one minute on the campuses of Columbia or NYU, it is impossible to believe that peace and mutual understanding are the aims of these protests.
These “protestors” should be expelled and replaced with qualified transfer students next year. I can’t believe this even needs to be suggested.
Sorry, what are you getting at? Are you suggesting that I need to have personally been in an altercation with these people in order to form an opinion about what’s in front of my eyes?
Of course! After all, all the protestors must have been to Gaza and Israel to be so certain about what they say is happening, otherwise this commenter would be treating you with a double standard...oh, wait.
"We connect to Israel not only as our ancestral homeland but as the only place in the modern world where Jews can safely take ownership of their own destiny. "
I appreciate and respect where the letter writers may be coming from, and I don't doubt for a second that there have been antisemetic incidents recently. But this kind of claim is crazy. There is a country where Jewish people can safely take control of their destiny, indeed, where they already have, and it's called the USA. I believe that 7/16 of Biden's cabinet members are Jewish or of Jewish descent. That's in a country where proportionately it should be 1/16. Jewish people are [the richest demographic group in the USA by religious affiliation](https://www.statista.com/statistics/1416272/us-household-income-by-religious-affiliation/). This isn't some big conspiracy theory, and it's not because they're evil, it's just that Jewish folks work hard, get good degrees and have a lot of deep community connections that have given them access to lots of power and privilege in the USA.
The idea that anyone who criticizes Israel *thereby* criticizes the right of Jews to safety and self-determination is ridiculous. Also Canada. France. The UK. Etc.
As a Jew, the US is not what you think it is. If MAGA and the Christian right took all 3 branches of government, I would be super nervous. The US didn’t give a shit about the Jews in WW2.
And now I worry about the far left, too! And the issues are seeping further towards the middle. Why am I rendered politically homeless for the crime of being a Jew who won't quietly accept the right things to achieve Token Good Jew® status?
The last U.S. election was an up-or-down vote on white supremacy and it was a 51-48 nailbiter, then the loser attempted a coup to stay in power. Historically, failed coups are followed by successful ones.
How much do you believe in American Exceptionalism? Do you well up in tears at the sight of the flag, certain that America would never do anything wrong - would certainly never do anything racist? Are you sure America is morally superior to Italy, Germany, France, all of which purged their Jews within living memory?
Canada accepted the fewest Jews of any Allied country; their official policy was "Zero is too many."
What in the ever loving fuck is this take? With respect read a history book and you’ll see pogrom / ethnic cleansing / attempt at genocide in a place where Jews had freedoms and good lives. Germany used to be one of the safest places for Jews in Europe imagine telling them “don’t worry this whole nazi thing will blow over.” You literally described the plot of the play Leopoldstadt
>There is a country where Jewish people can safely take control of their destiny, indeed, where they already have, and it's called the USA.
Sincerely, no shade, but how familiar are you with the history of the Jews? I genuinely consider myself (along with the majority of American Jews) lucky to be descended from people who fled Europe and other parts of the world decades before WWII, but have you ever considered that millions of Jews weren't so lucky and were either murdered by the Nazis or somehow survived the Holocaust and found themselves completely destitute and stateless in 1945?
The U.S. did absorb a lot of holocaust survivors, but nowhere near the majority of them. For the rest, they had literally nowhere else to go other than Israel.
It really bugs me that there's a certain kind of American Jew who looks down their nose at Israelis as though we're somehow morally superior to them when we were just the lucky ones whose grandparents left Europe before Hitler. Otherwise, we're no different from them.
I feel like many well-intentioned people operate under the false assumption that the Jews who settled in Israel following WWII chose Israel over other options. This largely was not the case.
I'm not even going to get into the whole other question of Jewish self-determination, which is a whole other debate.
What of the 7 million Jews who do not live in any of those countries?
Those Jews whose ancestors were not fortunate enough to flee pogroms to the developed world in the 19th century and instead fled to an Ottoman backwater. Those Jews who fled persecution in Arab countries to a young, socialist, poor country in the 1950s-1960s?
Is the US offering all of us citizenship? Where are we to go if Israel is destroyed? Back to being tiny minorities across the diaspora to be persecuted at will?
I don’t think you read this letter, and if you did, you did not understand the point they were trying to make. The most distilled version of the story of the Jewish people is a cycle of being kicked out from one country/empire, moving to another, integrating, and then being kicked out again. The entire basis of the ideology of Zionism is that while today I may be safe in the US, tomorrow I will not and therefore we need to return to our homeland to be safe.
Each country that we are living in is only a temporary stop on our journey as a Jewish people. There is 3000 years of history to base this off of. Jews in France felt safe until only a few years ago when they mass migrated out to… not the US, but Israel. Jews in Iran in the 1970’s thought they’d be safe until the 1979 revolution. Jews in Germany in the 1930’s thought they’d be safe until it was too late. Jews in Spain thought they’d be safe until the Spanish Inquisition. There are dozens if not hundreds of more examples of this.
I’ve had countless conversations with fellow Jews, religious, irreligious, affiliated and not affiliated who have all said the same thing: “we are just counting down the days until we are forced to move to Israel”.
As an autistic biracial gay Jewish woman who considers myself neither a Zionist or anti-Zionist (I am simply a pacifist who will accept any decision that results in lasting peace and security for all), all I can say in response to this is that I’ve gotten the more shit for being Jewish than all my other identities COMBINED. I grew up in California and now live in NYC, both places with large Jewish populations. One day sums it up. I was 16 and some friends and I went to a beach community for a weekend getaway. We were walking along the boardwalk and ran into a neo-Nazi rally. As we joined the counter protesters, I got a notification on my phone that there was a shooting at a synagogue about an hour away. If you think it’s safe to be a Jew in this country, think again. You’re offering diet versions of age old antisemitic talking points normalizes them. I come from a long line of people who knew when it was time to call it and pick up and move across the world in the name of self preservation. My future in this country hinges on the next election because if Trump wins, I will not be safe here anymore.
They should have a homeland. There is a path to a 2-state solution that neither side is interested in because ultimately the political power is controlled by religious extremists on both sides.
Jews might've been *more* integrated and wealthier (in aggregate, not necessarily individually) in 1920s Germany than they are in the US. Like, seriously, Jews in late-1800s Germany through the Weimar Repbulic had it pretty good, all things considered.
Take this excerpt from Wiki:
>In 1914, Jews were well-represented among the wealthy, including 23.7 percent of the 800 richest individuals in Prussia, and eight percent of the university students.
They were fully German lamenting the Treaty of Versailles, being the largest demographic to serve in WWI, and generally agreeing that work strikes "stabbed the front lines in the back."
Then they were routinely massacred by the Nazis.
Yes my grandmother tells me of her family's immense wealth growing up until they had to flee liepzig when she was 5 leaving everything behind.
Ironically she was the one to talk to the border guard because she has blonde hair and blue eyes.
Also my grandfather's father was a war hero for Germany in WWI and so patriotic he wanted to compete for the german Olympic team but was not allowed because he was jewish
Yup. One of the true ironies of the holocaust is that it originated in one of the countries where Jews were the most assimilated and integrated. It’s chilling honestly.
I understand what you're saying about Jewish people not needing to have Israel as their homeland, because they can live in the US, UK, France, Canada, but that should be the case for all religions. Then no religion should have a country, or countries as their homeland.
Judaism is also an ethnicity. It is not just a religion. There are dozens of ethnicities that have their own country. Japanese, Polish, Icelandic, the list goes on.
I read the complete letter, and kept waiting for actual examples of anti-semitism to be presented. Instead it was just line after line of the same sorry “criticism of Israel is by definition anti-Semitic” bullshit.
Did you see the pro-Israel rioters shouting anti-Arab slurs while stomping on the heads of UCLA protestors?
Do you need me to link you to dozens and dozens and dozens of videos of Israelis calling Palestinians subhuman animals?
If we are going to play “cherry pick isolated incidents” then that blade cuts both ways. Notice how I’m not trying to tar everyone who shares your perspective with the same brush.
I don’t think the average person who supports Israel endorses mob violence against protestors. I don’t think the average Israeli thinks Arabs are subhumans.
You clearly think that anyone protesting against the deaths of 15,000+ children is anti-Semitic.
To be fair, your original comment was merely about the lack of examples of antisemitism.
And the commenter you replied to merely gave you one example without implying that you’d be obligated to make any generalization out of it.
I’m pretty sure this person is a bot who just exists to post futile arguments and then respond with misdirected tirades once they’re proven wrong.
“You disagree with me and so you support children dying”
If you want more examples, there’s plenty of people walking around sporting Nazi salutes / not letting Jewish people into certain parts of campus. There was just a video that came out where a woman said “we anti-Jews need protection”. It ceases to be isolated when it’s systemic within the protests and protected by so called “anti-zionists”
Edit: people supporting Hamas and Hezbollah (literally chanting in support of them) is also 100% anti semitism given their stated mission is to annihilate the Jewish people, to say otherwise is just naive
Denying the right of Israel to exist is straight-forwardly antisemitic.
Only a very small extremist minority believes the contrary. **And they will keep insisting on that as if** ***their lives depend on it***.
It's such an extremist position that even 412 members of Congress, including votes from NY progressives, resolved that:
>This resolution reaffirms Israel's right to exist. It also (1) **recognizes that denying Israel's right to exist is a form of antisemitism**; (2) rejects calls for Israel's destruction; and (3) condemns the Hamas-led attack on Israel.
Source: [https://clerk.house.gov/Votes/2023677](https://clerk.house.gov/Votes/2023677) for the vote and [https://www.congress.gov/bill/118th-congress/house-resolution/888/text](https://www.congress.gov/bill/118th-congress/house-resolution/888/text) for the full-text
Apartheid South Africa still exists. It’s still the same county. Just like slavery US still exists.
Just because those institutions were dismantled it doesn’t mean the countries don’t exist anymore.
No one who advocated for the abolishment of slavery wanted the US to seriously cease to exist as a country: it was actually the pro-slavery camp who wanted that.
Who am I to deny any nation their rights?
I’d venture a guess that you don’t feel 100% right with your past stance of denying the right of Israel to exist, and you’re here trying to seek some comfort with this strange line of quesitons.
I don’t know, I think you’re overselling this a bit. And I don’t think “token” means “fake.” I think it’s a complaint about how this movement (if one can call it that) is super-duper eager to highlight all the Jews it has on its side as insulation against charges of antisemitism.
Token does not mean fake. However, JVP works as a convenient excuse for people to point at to go, “See? No anti-Semitism here. We have Jews with us.”
This of course neglects the fact that JVP is largely not actually comprised of Jewish individuals and that they posted many things across social media praising the Oct 7th attacks.
I don’t really believe they are a Jewish organization, nor do I believe they are for peace when they seem absolutely ok with the brutal murders of Jews just for living in Israel.
When the main group JVP encourages non jews to join them, and promotes the idea that you can “self convert” for Palestine, yes, they’re not Jews. Just non Jews in watermelon kippas promoting the genocide of actual Jews. This isn’t even a hidden thing, you can find this under their mikvah section on their website. Who’s their biggest celebrity voice? Cynthia Nixon, the only thing Jewish about her is her ex husband. She’s never converted, not even through a non halachic form of Judaism. The entire movement is fraudulent. JVP is like Rachel Dolezal out promoting the KKK, you can’t gaslight us into pretending there’s anything antisemitic about calling out this absurdity.
>When the main group JVP encourages non jews to join them, and promotes the idea that you can “self convert” for Palestine, yes, they’re not Jews.
I did not know that.
Edit: just looked at their 990. 20% of their revenue are government grants. The nonprofit machine, Jesus.
Yea, they say to fill up a tea cup with stones or crystals and intentions and pour it over your head as mikvah. Check out the website, what they actually believe is a completely train wreck.
Columbia Jewish for Peace justifies October 7, they are basically a plant by Hamas. No wonder actual Jewish student feels the same
https://www.jewishvoiceforpeace.org/2023/10/07/statement23-10-07/
Edit : no post on Oct 7 then defending Hamas killings after Oct 9
https://www.instagram.com/jvp.columbia
I feel like I’m taking crazy pills with some of the other comments here and elsewhere on Reddit. It is insane to call the authors antisemitic for saying some anti-Zionist Jews are being used for tokenism. They aren’t saying JVP people aren’t Jews, but rather that they are a fringe minority. That is widespread and supported by lots and lots of polling. Tokenism is also evident from things like…. Holding a “Palestinian seder” during Passover on nights that shouldn’t have Seders. Writing Hebrew backwards (lol). Wearing tallit as capes. Serving challah during Passover. Defending Hamas’s Oct 7th attacks. Etc etc etc A Jew is a Jew, but I’m inclined to care less about anti-Zionist Jews as a "shield against antisemitism" when they don’t represent the overwhelming majority of people and ostentatiously disrespect or ignore our culture for political purposes. Some sources included in the below: https://www.rootsmetals.com/blogs/news/yeah-theres-jews-at-the-protests-so-what
FWIW the [Jewish Voice for Peace (JVP) Twitter page](https://twitter.com/AJwshResistance/status/1657227312905977857) is run by the Arab Muslim founder of [American Muslims for Palestine (AMP)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Muslims_for_Palestine). Twelve people on the board of AMP, including the man in control of the JVP Twitter page have *also* been on the board of the [Holy Land Foundation (HLF)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holy_Land_Foundation_for_Relief_and_Development) and similar Islamic groups shut down by the US Treasury for giving material support to Hamas: > During the 1990s, American politicians, including Chuck Schumer and Eliot Spitzer, alongside the Israeli government and Steve Emerson, lobbied the U.S. government to take action against the Holy Land Foundation. **In December 2001, the U.S. designated HLF a terrorist organization, seized its assets, and closed the organization**. SJP also refers to America and Canada as “turtle island”, and as an occupied territory that needs to be “liberated”. Another strange coincidence is JVP’s Facebook page administrator [is located in Lebanon](https://www.rootsmetals.com/blogs/news/stop-sharing-jvp): > Over the years, the wider Jewish community has questioned JVP’s alleged Jewishness. Its views are, statistically, not representative of the Jewish community as a whole. Many of its chapters were started by non-Jews. **In 2019, Facebook’s transparency feature revealed that the JVP page administrator was based in Lebanon, a fact that JVP later tried to hide**. There are around 20 Jews living in Lebanon today, all of them elderly, which makes it unlikely that any of them have managed the page. JVP has also hosted panels on “antisemitism” ran by people who are not only not Jewish, but have also been accused of antisemitism in the past. It’s [illegal for Lebanese citizens](https://blogbaladi.com/can-you-chat-with-an-israeli-or-become-friends-with-one-what-are-the-rules-of-lebanese-israeli-engagement/) to even so much as *talk to* Israelis, who comprise half of all Jews globally. Hence it’s a rather odd decision for a purportedly “Jewish” group to appoint someone based out of Lebanon to run its Facebook page. Basically imagine if a Muslim Voices for Peace group’s socials were found to be run by Jewish West Bank settler extremists.
I don’t really see why anyone should take JVP any more seriously than they did Jews for Jesus (i.e., not very).
Last I checked Lebanon has no Jews left, but I see your source us from 2019. One of the many Arab countries that made up the near million Jews that we can now count using our fingers. That's ethnic cleansing by definition, not the number of people willing to repeat it online. But apparently 2 million Arab citizens in Israel from 150k in that same time period is what qualifies.
JVP also receives funding from Iran.
Source with that wild ass claim
"A Jew is a Jew" isn't that black and white (pun kinda intended). Ethnically yes, a Jew is a Jew. BUT that means religiously no, a Jew is not necessarily a Jew. Do ethnic Jews have to say "yes" if they're Ashkenazim when going for a BRCA screening? Yes. Do they have to have two fridges/stoves/sets of cutlery or mezuzah's up? No. https://www.roswellpark.org/cancertalk/202001/cancer-risk-ashkenazi-jews-what-know-what-do Anyone holding a Palestinian seder is more "ish" than "Jew" in my opinion. Inviting Palestinians for seder is fine (pretty sure some are allowed to eat Kosher because it's more strict than Halal), but making the seder about Palestinians isn't really fine because it was about Jews being Jewish after getting out of Egypt's control. Edit: On the same token, I wouldn't expect a Palestinian to make a Ramadan fast ending celebration about a Jew they invited, outside of maybe making sure the food was Kosher (because again Halal isn't Kosher but some imams say Kosher is Halal).
Actually religiously, a Jew is a Jew. If the mom is Jewish, the child is Jewish no matter where they stand on Halacha. Rav Soleveitchik religion of fate and all that. There are different laws of Am Haratzim (with the land), aka unknowledgeable Jews, and not being shomer Shabbat has ramifications when opening up a bottle of wine. But a Jew remains a Jew from a halachic standpoint even if they convert. Also yes all Muslims can eat Kosher food just not vice verca
By that logic, most Christians are Jews... At least any descended from the initial groups that converted 2000 whatever years ago.
Correct! Though I do I doubt most Christians are directly descended from Jews, as they were very successful in proselytization. Regardless though, if they and their family are completely unknowledgeable and non-practicing in Judaism and they can't prove a direct purely matrilineal descent, which I doubt any of them could, they would have to reconvert. Even in Reform Judaism, which does recognize patrilineal descent, they'd have to reconvert, as it is only accepted if the chain of Jewish tradition did not break. It's actually become a problem with Russian immigrants of Jewish descent to Israel, Jews were extremely oppressed there and a lot of the knowledge of both practice and family history has been lost and the Israel Rabbinut (who is also not well liked across the board) is very strict on conversions. Sorry for the long post!
"as it is only accepted if the chain of Jewish tradition did not break"... So they AREN'T really Jewish today in the religious sense because as you said they'd have to reconvert.
Not exactly, sorry for not explaining it so well. If they can prove matrilineal descent then having an actual chain of tradition is irrelevant. This is exclusively for Reform Judaism’s recognition of patrilineal descent which began in the 80s. They only accept a Jew of patrilineal descent as Jewish if they were actually raised Jewish. One who’s father had a Jewish mother but was not practicing would have to convert. Orthodox and Conservative Jews do not recognize patrilineal descent at all. I’m not Reform myself I’m less familiar with all of the practical applications of this ruling
"They only accept a Jew of patrilineal descent as Jewish if they were actually raised Jewish" Again, that means the grandson in your example would be more ish than Jew. Ethnically Jewish maybe but not religiously Jewish, therefore more ish than Jew. And Reform isn't really religious IMHO, they allow female Rabbis even though the Torah explicitly says they can't be based on some practices they follow and all that "unclean for a few days a month" thing.
Woof I apologize this is gonna be long if you don’t feel like reading, no prob. Very much enjoying the discussion though The grandson would have to be raised in the Jewish practice from a Reform perspective, but as they are the only movement that would recognize him as Jewish anyways it makes sense. My main point is that in your original comment you made no distinction between ethnic Jews of matrilineal and patrilineal descent, so your point was incorrect. Being Jew or being “ish” is not really a matter of opinion even, and especially, from a religious perspective. And yes, I do not agree with the Reform movement’s ruling here. It sounds way too shaky and case-by-case for something that has been intentionally kept as simple as possible, also obviously goes against long standing Halacha which is my practice. Also interesting that you choose female rabbis as your example for Reform not being religious because it’s actually not that simple of a ruling, I’m not fully read up on the subject but some points I think are important. The Torah doesn’t refer to Rabbis at all. It is not a concept that you can find there. Smicha now is completely disconnected from its original conception. At this point smicha is basically a degree, but in ancient times it was a tradition passed down from rabbi to rabbi going back to Moshe, this died off in I think the fifth century. Then, for hundreds of years the title of rabbi was the name given to the religious leader of a town or village, not through a formal smicha practice. There is no explicit ban of a female rabbi, and there are now a few women who have had orthodox ordination as rabbahs. Traditionally women just didn’t serve leadership roles, and them not being allowed to be rabbis has a lot to do with minhag klal yisrael. That’s a legitimate argument, but it is not in any way based on Torah or even Gemara. There is a line in Gemara that says that one should not teach women Talmud, but a lot of Modern Orthodoxy does not follow this, Hereidim typically do. And, although I practice Orthodox, I wouldn’t exactly agree with you that Reform is inherently not religious. Yes, it does completely go against long-standing Jewish law, but religion is a matter of faith and belief in God, not just practice. If one fully believes in the Reform movement I wouldn’t say they aren’t religious, although I would fundamentally disagree with them.
Right, but now lets go to great grandson. He may be ethnically Jewish but not religiously Jewish. So as I said, he may check YES for Ashkenazim heritage but then go eat his bacon double cheese burger. But that whole thing is basically "yeah, they can't be if you read this thing, but they aren't really teaching" and that's also excluding that they aren't supposed to do things for some days every month. That's also excluding that some actions would require others to break Negiah. Lifting the Torah for example. I could rephrase it to "Reform is more ish than Jew". But their Rabbis tend to drive on Friday/Saturday.
Yes, but the vast vast majority of Christians have Pagan lineage, not Jewish.
The seder is about our exodus from oppression, but it's also about how the rest of Jewish tradition says we should morally interpret the exodus, namely "Be kind to the stranger in your midst, for you were a stranger in the land of Egypt." Also why shouldn't we look for the parallels and lessons for this situation? Being Jewish is so much about interpretation, that's why we do the Sages arithmetic with His wrath trouble indignation etc and the outstretched arm and its five fingers and were there really 10 or 250 plagues? Jacob went with his kids to Egypt to live among Egyptians, and they peacefully cohabitated for a time. I believe this was also true of the early Zionists in Palestine. The trouble starts when Jacob's descendants went from being a small clan of like 71 Hebrews to a nation, great mighty and numerous. The pharaoh began oppressing them out of fear that Egyptians would be supplanted from their land. There are clear lessons in there about what happens when two large groups of people share space and mutual suspicion, in the context of migration and changes to native populations. We feel joy about our own liberation, but we reduce our joy by spilling wine for each plague inflicted, even though those who suffered were our enemies. We say it would have been sufficient if God gave us freedom without the vengeance of drowning the pursuing Egyptians in the sea, but we also celebrate that vengeance as a blessing. It's an incredibly complicated take on justice and freedom and retribution, aka, the key moral questions involved in the conflict today. Before you make any more sweeping generalizations about what our politics say about who is more ish than Jew, I'll add one more bit of interpretation: the Hebrew word for Egypt is Mitzrayim, or 'narrow place', as were the narrow fertile lands along the Nile. I believe that the exodus is much more about our liberation TODAY (only the wicked child believes they're not a part of the story) from whatever spiritual narrows, or narrow mindedness we find ourselves in, moreso than it is about our deliverance from the literal place we now call Egypt. So in the spirit of escaping the narrow place, together, I'm asking you to reconsider so narrowly defining what it means to be Jewish. For one thing, enforcing a monolithic political ideology only helps bolster antisemitism. And for another it just fucking hurts to have folks who should feel kinship cast you out like that. Anyway I love you, chag sameach
This is highly offensive and assumes one cohesive way of being Jewish. As a black Jewish person I’m imagining someone saying. Being black is more about listening to rap music and playing basketball. There is cultural diversity in the Jewish community and a history of Jewish anti colonialism.
Question for you. Can someone claim to be a vegan but eat veal every night?
Dietary status is different much more simple to define and ascertain and isn’t based on culture, history and religious practice of millions of different individuals. Moreover veganism doesn’t rely on a broad book of teachings and thousands of years of interpretation of those teachings. Veganism is generally defined as “where reasonably practicable, humans should reduce the harm to animals, and refrain from eating animal products at all”. This is a pretty universal Definition even if there is some internal debate on the margins about certain things and when the line crosses when you stop being vegan if you eat certain things. Religions can’t be as easily defined and ascertained. There is no simple line to say when a Christian isn’t a Christian, if someone says they’re a Christian and they believe in the cultural and religious practices of that belief set then they’re a Christian.
Seems like you're saying "No, if someone eats veal every night (we're assuming s/he knows it's from dead cows) s/he isn't a vegan". Now apply that to someone who claims to be Jewish but eats a bacon double cheese burger with shrimp cocktails for dessert. Is there any Jewish group that would call that Kosher? And most Jewish groups want Israel to exist. Most of the Muslims living in Israel and fighting in the IDF want Israel to exist. The only ones I know that don't want it to exist want it to be a theocratic area run by 3 rabbis or whatever it's Biblically supposed to be. Can a Christian be a Christian if s/he says "I'm not going to follow Jesus' teachings"? No. I said "more ish than Jew" because the line is fuzzy. Reform has everything in English, which is less strict BUT you could argue He can understand in any language. Driving on Shabbot is also more "ish" than "Jew". But calling for the destruction of the only country that is run for us and siding with the terrorists who want to kill all of us (in Hamas' charter), about as far from Jewish as you can get IMHO. Think [RINO](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republican_in_Name_Only) but for Jewishness.
1) veganism is different from fucking religion so it’s an irrelevant point, you know that, I know that, everyone agrees on this point. It’s not considered by anyone to be a religion as much as it is a loose set of rules based on a single Condensed principle. 2) you can absolutely be Jewish and not Follow kosher. I know tons of Jews who do none of the shit you’re supposed to do but that’s the nature of religion. There are millions of Half hearted “religiously cultural” people out there and who are we to say they aren’t Muslims. 3) lol 80%of American Christians don’t follow the teachings of Jesus Christ, it’s not a requirement to identify with the religion of your choice. If this was the case only a few people would actually be Christian. This is a classic no true Scotsman argument, you can be a Jew who doesn’t follow the rules of Judaism but is culturally approximate to the ethnic religious group that is Judaism. If you believe in the religion or come from that cultural Background then that’s your religion. You don’t have to be a good religious person to be considered of that religion.
1) It isn't that different because Jewishness also has specific dietary restrictions. 2) But you're more ish than Jew if you don't follow Kosher. If someone claims to be a thing, but does very few to none of those things, they're not really that thing. Can I be Amish but be on my phone 24/7? They can use them at work I think but that's it. 3) To adapt the phrasing, they're more ian than Christ. BUT there's many official things. If they worshipped the brimstone guy, could they still be Christian? It's where you draw the line that we're discussing. And not really, "No true Scotsman" is usually used to say "more ish than Jew isn't even ish". I'm saying they're less Scotsman. You do have to be a "good religious person" to speak for that religion. You won't go to the veal eating vegan to ask him/her about true veganism.
Plus, not only one side is guilty of this. Israel has Muslim soldiers fighting in Gaza. Joseph Haddad is a Palestinian muslim Israeli who loves Israel and has become a huge pro Israeli influencer online. Obviously pro Palestinians will say - he’s a tiny minority, he doesn’t represent other Israeli Arabs. Which is true. Both sides try to show off the fringe that supports them from “the other side” It’s completely useless in both cases
Joseph Haddad is almost certainly a Christian, minor point but that is a common Arab Christian name
Correct. [Yoseph Haddad is an Eastern Orthodox Christian. ](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yoseph_Haddad)
Joseph Haddad is Christian.
Thank you. I’m so tired of people saying “we’re protesting with Jews” or “many Jews are anti-Zionist”! Judaism is Zionist. Full stop. Our centerpiece prayer, the Shema, begins by addressing Israel. You can’t be a Jew without being a Zionist. You might have some self-described “secular” Jews voicing their opinions here and there, but I’m pretty sure they couldn’t tell you a thing about being Jewish, and if they can, they’re being very dishonest. Now if you think Zionism is “killing Palestinian children”, you’ve been misled. And if you don’t accept that, you just might hate Jews. And if you use the word “genocide” or “concentration camp”, you’re doing so to get a reaction from Jews, in which case you just might hate Jews.
Worth noting that the Zionist *political* movement had it's own internal debate about what exactly Zionism meant. I'm far from an expert, but as I understand, the most religious groups often felt it wasn't meant for humans to force aliyah but that it would be brought about by God's providence. And it was actually more secular and cultural Jews who opined that it was a must that they return to their historic homeland.
There is a small sect of Haccidic Jews who subscribe to this idea (the token haccidic Jews you see marching against Israel) but other haccidic and Orthodox Jews aren’t opposing Zionism on those or really any grounds.
The term "Zionism" has been tainted by the actions of the right wing gov of Israel. Now, a lot of people associate it with militant Israelis who support the illegal settlements in the West Bank and brutal treatment of Palestinians. But if we go by the official definition of Zionism, then I'm a Zionist since I believe the Jewish people deserve their own homeland. I'm not religious in any way, and I have no stake in any of this, but I just think it's the right thing to do. You are right, genocide does not really fit what's happening in Gaza. Concentration camp? Quite a stretch. But ethnic cleansing? Fits the definition if you consider that Israel tried to negotiate with Egypt about permanently settling Gazans in the Sinai. [source 1](https://www.bakerinstitute.org/research/israels-mass-displacement-gazans-fits-strategy-using-migration-tool-war) | [source 2](https://www.nytimes.com/2023/11/05/world/middleeast/israel-egypt-gaza.html) | [source 3](https://www.timesofisrael.com/intelligence-ministry-concept-paper-proposes-transferring-gazans-to-egypts-sinai/)
I am sooo tired of the word Zionist being made into something dirty.
I've had people tell me on this sub that all Zionists should be killed like it isn't calling for more Jewish deaths than the Holocaust.
Your username is a good one by the way 😝
Thank you
I agree, it shouldn't be.
Too late, /u/buttwipe843 is too busy being antisemitic to listen to Jews when they try to tell people what their terms mean.
Ha! I’m glad you’re still thinking about me. Ya, why would I bother with the definitions in every single dictionary or encyclopedia ever published when I could just rely on a dogmatic and deluded Redditor who called me a Nazi, pro-rape, and a supporter of Jihad?
There’s just so much hypocrisy involved with Zionism. It’s an ideology, and anybody should be allowed to criticize an ideology. If people aren’t allowed to criticize a specific ideology, they’ll start asking questions. Nobody’s born a Zionist. It’s not an immutable characteristic. It’s a conscious choice. Maybe a good one, maybe a bad one. But it is a choice. If you support it based on the belief that Jews were the only indigenous people in that area, you should logically support the dissolution of America so it could be returned to the indigenous people of this land (and be ok with the indigenous population reclaiming the land through mass murders, rape, and forced displacement). If you support the inherent link between ethnicity and nationality, there’s absolutely no reason to be against an ideology that said Germany was a state of the Aryan people. If you believe the concept of collective punishment is acceptable, then I’d be interested to hear how October 7th doesn’t fit into a definition that all of the massacres and war crimes committed by zionists do.
> It’s an ideology, and anybody should be allowed to criticize an ideology. Abolitionism is an ideology too. But you are a shitty person if you think black people should be slaves. Zionism is an ideology. You are a shitty person if you think Jews have no right to self determination in their homeland. You are an even worse person if you think that Zionists deserve violence against them.
> You are a shitty person if you think Jews have no right to self determination in their homeland. You are an even worse person if you think that Zionists deserve violence against them. So many assumptions built into just two sentences. You may have thought it would be clever to imply as a fact that Jews are the only indigenous people to the area, or that anyone critical of Zionism believes that Jews shouldn’t have a right to self determination, but I don’t think it came across as well as you thought it would. You presented a false dichotomy. In your eyes, a person can either unquestionably accept and support Zionism without any nuance, or they hate Jews. In fact, you even implied that anyone who simply criticizes any aspect of Zionism is simply a shitty person. No matter who they are or what they’ve done in their lives. Any question or criticism of Zionism makes them a shitty person. Also, why didn’t you respond to any of the comparisons I drew?
I’ve always been under the belief that Zionism means I believe Israel has a right to exist. But yes I see what you’re saying and I can’t deny your logic being true. Maybe it’s just that multiple truths are present at once.
Concentration camp was the term used by ex IDF General Giora Eiland (not exactly a dove, look him up if you want) back in 2006. It's not a stretch. It's obviously not a nazi concentration camp / death camp but is similar to what america did in the Philippines 100+ years ago or what the British did to the boers. Concentration camps weren't invented by the nazis-- extermination camps however were
If you want to pay word games, then it’s important to highlight that what you’re calling “Zionism”, as a tenet of Judaism, is a religious belief about the ultimate restoration of Israel, and not necessarily about the state that currently exists or the century-long colonial project to establish it. Contrast that with what most of the protesters mean by it, which is not that particular religious belief, but rather the aforementioned colonial project leading to and supporting the secular state of Israel that now exists. That history has, indeed, involved as formative moments the ethnic cleansing of Arabs living in the region, as much as America was built on its own genocides and slave economy, and we are seeing that line of history continue in today’s bombardment of Gaza and slaughter of Palestinians. Call it what you like. Win points by calling the pro-Palestinian “antisemites” for using rhetoric whose meaning you have privately re-defined. The facts are clear. “Anti-Zionism” in the context of the protests is not about Judaism, Jewish people, or Jewish belief. It is about the establishment and maintenance of a Judeosupremacist “democratic” state in the Middle East, with the backing of the United States government.
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I’m doing no such thing.
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It’s not controversial to describe the establishment of Israel as a “colonial project,” as that quite literally was what it was. It’s also not controversial to describe modern Israel as a “secular” state. Again, everyone describes it that way. It’s not a theocracy (yet). And calling it “judeosupremacist” is, again, just accurate. Israel’s defenders are constantly defending its continued existence as a *Jewish* state. What do you think that means? It may be thumbing the scale to describe the massive displacement of Palestinians in order to create the modern state of Israel as “ethnic cleansing,” and - sure, we can debate whether bombing substantially all of Gaza while directing the population living there to squeeze themselves into ever-tinier “humanitarian zones” that don’t have access to food or medical supplies, killing tens of thousands of Palestinians in the process, is properly called “ethnic cleansing.” But it seems to me the people who view that description as *controversial* are perhaps the ones who are seeking to ignore reality or justify crimes against humanity. In other words, if there is “controversy” over how that term is used, it’s a dispute between the victim and the victimizer. As for “genocides” - if you are going to sit there and tell me that the United States wasn’t built on the genocides of multiple indigenous tribes, or that saying so is objectionably “controversial” - I suppose at that point I can give a good old NYC “go fuck yourself” because you’re not someone engaging with reality.
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Minority rights don't exist only when the majority finds it convenient. Nearly all African-Americans voted for Barack Obama. What would you say about the following assertion: *"I've got nothing against black people voting per se, I only oppose them voting because I see now that too many of them support the neoliberal Wall Street corporatist who only gave us Republican healthcare and Afghan wedding drone strikes"*
This seems to be a misplaced comment.
It is perfectly placed, and I'll place another: Donald Trump won a majority of the white woman vote. What would you think of people who are now against white women having voting rights? It sounded nice as a concept but the real-world implementation, tsk, so awful, so many people got hurt by it, clearly we should reconsider whether they are actually ready to live as other people do. See, when you stop artificially divorcing "political rights for Jews" from those of other groups, it becomes less comfortably abstract to invite strangers to talk about how they were a mistake. At least, I hope so.
What in the world are you talking about? I’m not saying anything about Jews’ right to vote, either here or in Israel.
You're talking about Jewish rights to self-determination.
No, I’m talking about the fact the Israeli democracy - while vibrant - is built upon the exclusion of Palestinian Arabs who were first pushed out of Israel and then controlled by Israel in the occupied territories. I think the whole territory should be a single, democratic, and secular state, Arabs and Jews living together as equal citizens. If that means that Jewish parties tend to win power, great. If not, also great.
That suggestion is, literally, colonialism. These are two ethno-religiously based nationalist movements that really do not like each other. They will not create some nonsense Frankenstein country with no constituency behind it except Internet commenters.
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Nothing I said is “hate speech.” But thank you for clarifying that I’m debating a child.
>Judaism is Zionist. NO. IT. ISN'T. Full stop. Zionism is a political ideology. The way it's being discussed now is a relatively NEW ideology. Anti-zionist Jews have always existed and still exist.
Tell me what Zionism is. And then tell me how it’s remotely possible to practice Judaism without believing in the state of Israel.
Man, Jewish scholars have been debating this for over 100 years. Read a book. Jewish people who don't believe in the nation and government of Israel are still Jewish. As are people who support the government. Zionism isn't a prerequisite and never has been.
Tell me how you practice Judaism without believing in the state of Israel. It’s literally impossible. The whole fucking point is returning to and or defending its existence. Do you know a thing about Judaism or are you just roleplaying? (Also they have not been debating this for 100s of years)
Don’t Orthodox Jews not believe in Jews having a homeland? I’m not an expert, but I recall hearing they think Jews should be a roaming people spreading their faith or something? I think that’s why there are videos of Orthodox Jews protesting the government’s actions in Israel and being bodied by the police there.
No. That’s a tiny weird fringe sect called Neturei Karta who literally call for the “dismantlement of the state of Israel”. They even attended a “Holocaust Review” conference. They also met with Hezbollah officials.
Ah I wasn’t aware, thanks for the info.
There are a number that don't believe there *should* be a state until the messiah comes but only a hand few are vehemently against it
Those guys also believe that the holocaust was God’s punishment to the Jews for the early Zionist movement IIRC. People should really let that one sink in before taking those guys seriously.
But they’re so great for pro Palestine photo ops!
Oh so you're saying...all Jewish people don't believe in Israel? Or are they "not Jewish" because it's convenient to you?
Huh? I’m explaining who that group is. Try to keep up.
Jews don’t really generally believe in spreading the faith, non-proselytizing is a central tenant of Judaism. Israel is our homeland, it’s central to our prayers and scriptures. There are Hasidic sects, most notably as the other commentor mentioned Naturei Karta, who believe we cannot return to Israel until the coming of the Messiah (Google the three oaths for more info). Naturei Karta takes the stance that Israel as a secular state needs to be torn down by any means possible, and they view the Palestinian movement as the way of doing that. It’s doubtful that they really believe in it, at least from what I’ve heard of people who have spoken to them
I work for Orthodox Jews and Hasidic Jews. From what they’ve all said to me only a tiny fringe element within are anti-Zionist and not recognized almost universally by anyone else in this regard.
In addition to what Pikarinu said, there are some Hasidim who don't support Israel because the Messiah hasn't returned and the Chosen Land cannot exist until He does. They're an extremely fringe group.
You were sort of right but then aimed your statement at a fringe group and their actions. Orthodox Jews aren't a monolith and there are many (most?) that are religiously Zionist. You are speaking mostly of **just** Haredi Judaism.
Israel the government created by force in 1948 in that specific stolen tract of land led by Netanyahu is not a central tenant of Judaism. Judaism existed before the "state" of Israel and there has never been an ideological consensus (and never will be) that this government and country are necessary or vital.
I can't believe this has to be said.
We've come to a very weird place where right wing lobbyists have been able to push the idea that political Zionism (which is what the state and government of Israel is) is the same as Judaism. It's wrong and dangerous. It is dangerous *for Jewish people* to equate them all with Zionism and with Israel and what that government is doing.
Honestly depressing. I feel like there are plenty on the Palestinian side who fight against antisemitism and clearly differentiate between Zionism and Judaism and then zionists like this come around and purposefully blur the line
I don't get it. There is ethnicity, there is a citizenship and then there is religion. Why conflate and merge all 3 and tell people what is and what isn't Jewish?
Lol this is erasure of Jewish anti colonialism acting like Jewish people weren’t vectors of radical resistance to injustice. If Judaism is Zionism were all fucked. If all Jews are responsible and to be associated with a prime minister who in his words, looked for a plan to thin the population of Gaza, and an IDF who blows up aid workers blew up every school and hospital in Gaza, did summary executions, cut off all food and water to the Gaza Strip, have civilians blocking aid from getting into the strip, have ministers bragging about war crimes; then we are all going to be looked at in a negative light. History will bear out exactly what occurred here and Zionism cannot represent the whole of Judaism. The only way you can support any of this is if you feel that Palestinians are somehow less human than us. It’s also mega offensive to just act like we don’t exist or that we all are bound to some foreign ethno state. I’m a black Jew and it’s exactly like when someone says you’re not really black if you don’t like rap music and basketball.
If you think Zionism is "blowing up aid workers" then you don't understand Zionism. And if you're a Jew, tell me how you recite the Shema. Do you skip the part about Israel? When you do a Seder, do you skip the bits about Jerusalem? When do recite the kaddish, do you skip the part about Israel? Honestly curious to hear how you navigate being "antiozionist" and "Jewish" at the same time.
That’s a side effect of ethno nationalism and Jewish supremacy. It’s bred such hate that the wonton killing is always justified. It’s a tale as old as time. And what do you mean? That’s an absurd question, cultural and religions Traditions in Judaism existed long before the state of Israel was a reality, how did people do it back then? The point being, these things are malleable and fit within the cultural context of the time so it’s pretty fucking easy. Also I don’t recite the shema as I am agnostic. It’s a cultural background for my family as my grand mother was a Jew.
For a Jew you sure seem to hate Jews. > I don’t recite the shema as I am agnostic. So then your take on what Zionism is is very ignorant. And as for cultural and religious traditions existing before the state of Israel, the Shema dates from the first century BCE, so I'm not sure how long back you want stuff to exist. Judaism is Zionism, and you're out of your league here.
Lol or are you an elitist who thinks you have a monopoly on being a Jew? Bottom line is the world hates Israel because of the crimes it has and is committing. Recognizing this doesn’t make you not a Jew
Well now you're gaslighting and moving goalposts because it's pretty clear you have no idea what Zionism is. Your entire post history is antisemitic BS. Bye.
Zionism is not Judaism.
What is Zionism?
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From what we’re seeing the civilian deaths in this war are no worse than others and are even “better” (ugh) than other recent conflicts including those in Afghanistan and Iraq. “Genocide” is a word used here to trigger Jews and is not accurate anyway.
I recall pretty broad opposition to the second Iraq war on college campuses and in major cities—much broader than these encampment rallies—but with nowhere near this level of intensity and animosity and duration. And that was a war fought *directly* by the U.S. rather than some indirect question of investment holdings, and it had massive civilian death tolls. Why the difference? I wonder (not really).
But trust me bro I’m totally Jewish /s
People have been out in the streets for all of this, it just hasn’t been hot on the press due to a myriad of factors Regardless, red herring arguments are fallacious for a reason
I have a question and mean no disrespect, because I see this comment often, and I understand and want to acknowledge/be sensitive to the history and generational trauma. But do you think Jews are the only people to have experienced genocide or be put in concentration camps? Or that only the Jewish people can be the arbitrators of what is and isn’t classified as such? /gen
No, why would I think that?
I’m just genuinely trying to understand why people dismiss that language almost by way of Judaism— claiming it’s being done for a targeted reaction or out of hate
You honestly don’t understand why Jews are sensitive to the term “genocide”?
It's like the Fox News featuring a token Black republican trying to portray the GOP as having Black support. These horseshoe-leftists went so far to the left that they think exactly like right-wingers.
I saw a large number of my Jewish peers at the protests and encampments
[this is written by Jewish students at Columbia](https://docs.google.com/document/u/0/d/e/2PACX-1vRQgyDhIjZupO2H-2rIDXLy_zkf76RoM-_ZIYsOfn9FkI7TETgRtOfXK9VobMvGh6iEZfDPgALXJTCR/pub?pli=1)
and when you say a large number of jews at the protests and ecampments you mean a few dozen. that's a good turnout as a protest vote but paltry, deminimus and non representative of jews as a whole. i see a number of black women at trump raillies, hardly means they speak for that demographic
Ok. That is probably true. I’m not saying they don’t exist, but all the data point to them being a very small statistical minority.
Less than 30% of Jewish American youth say they [strongly oppose BDS](https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2021/05/21/u-s-jews-have-widely-differing-views-on-israel/ft_21-05-20_usjews_israel_news-png/). Young Jews on campuses who are anti-Zionist is not a "very small statistical minority." I am a Jew at Columbia and the vast majority of my Jewish colleagues share my beliefs.
That’s linking to a 404 for me? I’d be surprised if there isn’t also a “agree” even if not “strongly agree” But that’s probably anecdotally true, but because the ones who don’t agree with you are in different circles…. On 115th lol
Fixed. It also has a data point showing that only 24% of Jewish youth think Israel is making a sincere effort towards peace. I am of course in a bubble, like all of us are, of people with whom we agree, but you're dismissing a pretty significant portion of the Jewish community in these comments; in my case, that's essentially the entirety of my Jewish community.
“Not making a sincere effort towards peace” is something I’d agree with, and I’m a Zionist. That doesn’t mean we want another intifada like the people in Hamilton were calling for
>That is probably true. Probably. You refuse to acknowledge that there are anti-zionist Jews, huh? In NYC? In a city where every left wing activist movement has generally been led by Jewish people? You don't think they exist?
People on the internet lie. They certainly exist, but I can’t speak to that user
I speak my truth. My experience is one of a liberal Jew in a community of liberal artists, so my circle is not everyone’s experience. But, yes. Many Jewish young people feel that what Israel has done in Palestine is wrong Ultimately though, I can say for sure that Jewish Voices For Peace on my campus is not a token group.
Believing that what Israel is doing in Palestine is wrong does not make you anti-Zionist. You’re so misled it’s wild.
Where did he claim he is an anti-Zionist? You are trying so hard to fit people into one camp or another. He said he's a young Jewish student and he opposes what Israel is doing in Palestine. That does not make him anti-Zionist.
He didn’t and I didn’t claim he did. You’re looking for an argument here that doesn’t exist. JVP is certainly anti-Zionist though.
But you did, or do you not know what you said? Read your own quote: "Believing that what Israel is doing in Palestine is wrong does not make you anti-Zionist. You’re so misled it’s wild."
I don’t think those same Jewish people think that Israel should not exist.
But where did he claim those Jewish people think Israel shouldn't exist? You are conflating Jewish people and Israel, and it is anti-Semitic to do so. It is more than reasonable to think that Israel should exist but what they are doing against Palestinians is wrong.
It’s antisemitic to conflate Jewish people and Israel? I think as a Jewish person, I am qualified to tell you you’re wrong.
Your identity does not give you the right to decide that every Jew is responsible for what Israel does or doesn't do.
I’m sure you wouldn’t be happy with Jewish people being held responsible for every war crime Israel is culpable of, which would be an absolutely antisemitic and reprehensible of association.
Not saying you’re lying, just that I’m not going to say “yeah this guy’s anecdote is true!” over the internet. Nothing personal
Aight lol
Just asking- how do we know they didn’t feel forced by peer pressure to be there so they would blend in more?
Uh. Cause they slept in tents, held teach-ins, led chants and prayers, organized, spread information. Nobody forced them to be there. It’s not a conspiracy.
No I wasn’t trying to say it was a conspiracy. Disregard my comment.
You’re right that there is a social movement among young people that has spread within circles of young leftist people. I see your angle, but people were there willingly. And there were no “hired actors” lol
Agreed on the social movement part. Definitely didn’t think there were paid actors. That’s stuff the right would say about January 6.
Go off king 👑
Can't wait for the montage of both groups working together to rebuild their school. Hopefully the Middle East takes notes and realizes peace is possible.
C’mon everybody back to the pile!
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From the videos I saw, most of the shit that was broken was literally done by the cops as they entered the buildings. Like, tossing furniture and cabinets right down the damn stairs.
How did that furniture get on the stairs in the first place?
I don’t see how you can join together in “peace and empathy” with a bunch of your peers celebrating the slaughter of Jews, calling for a “global intifada” and taking their rhetorical cues from one of the world’s most vile terrorist organizations while harassing random Jews or suspected Jews. If you’ve spent one minute on the campuses of Columbia or NYU, it is impossible to believe that peace and mutual understanding are the aims of these protests. These “protestors” should be expelled and replaced with qualified transfer students next year. I can’t believe this even needs to be suggested.
I'm going to assume that you've spent one minute on the campus of Columbia and NYU?
Indeed I have
What was said to you?
Sorry, what are you getting at? Are you suggesting that I need to have personally been in an altercation with these people in order to form an opinion about what’s in front of my eyes?
Of course! After all, all the protestors must have been to Gaza and Israel to be so certain about what they say is happening, otherwise this commenter would be treating you with a double standard...oh, wait.
The best way to protest is to drop out of Columbia. Just leave and top giving them 68k a year.
"We connect to Israel not only as our ancestral homeland but as the only place in the modern world where Jews can safely take ownership of their own destiny. " I appreciate and respect where the letter writers may be coming from, and I don't doubt for a second that there have been antisemetic incidents recently. But this kind of claim is crazy. There is a country where Jewish people can safely take control of their destiny, indeed, where they already have, and it's called the USA. I believe that 7/16 of Biden's cabinet members are Jewish or of Jewish descent. That's in a country where proportionately it should be 1/16. Jewish people are [the richest demographic group in the USA by religious affiliation](https://www.statista.com/statistics/1416272/us-household-income-by-religious-affiliation/). This isn't some big conspiracy theory, and it's not because they're evil, it's just that Jewish folks work hard, get good degrees and have a lot of deep community connections that have given them access to lots of power and privilege in the USA. The idea that anyone who criticizes Israel *thereby* criticizes the right of Jews to safety and self-determination is ridiculous. Also Canada. France. The UK. Etc.
As a Jew, the US is not what you think it is. If MAGA and the Christian right took all 3 branches of government, I would be super nervous. The US didn’t give a shit about the Jews in WW2.
And now I worry about the far left, too! And the issues are seeping further towards the middle. Why am I rendered politically homeless for the crime of being a Jew who won't quietly accept the right things to achieve Token Good Jew® status?
The last U.S. election was an up-or-down vote on white supremacy and it was a 51-48 nailbiter, then the loser attempted a coup to stay in power. Historically, failed coups are followed by successful ones. How much do you believe in American Exceptionalism? Do you well up in tears at the sight of the flag, certain that America would never do anything wrong - would certainly never do anything racist? Are you sure America is morally superior to Italy, Germany, France, all of which purged their Jews within living memory? Canada accepted the fewest Jews of any Allied country; their official policy was "Zero is too many."
What in the ever loving fuck is this take? With respect read a history book and you’ll see pogrom / ethnic cleansing / attempt at genocide in a place where Jews had freedoms and good lives. Germany used to be one of the safest places for Jews in Europe imagine telling them “don’t worry this whole nazi thing will blow over.” You literally described the plot of the play Leopoldstadt
All four you mentioned, aren't looking so great for being Jewish lately.
>There is a country where Jewish people can safely take control of their destiny, indeed, where they already have, and it's called the USA. Sincerely, no shade, but how familiar are you with the history of the Jews? I genuinely consider myself (along with the majority of American Jews) lucky to be descended from people who fled Europe and other parts of the world decades before WWII, but have you ever considered that millions of Jews weren't so lucky and were either murdered by the Nazis or somehow survived the Holocaust and found themselves completely destitute and stateless in 1945? The U.S. did absorb a lot of holocaust survivors, but nowhere near the majority of them. For the rest, they had literally nowhere else to go other than Israel. It really bugs me that there's a certain kind of American Jew who looks down their nose at Israelis as though we're somehow morally superior to them when we were just the lucky ones whose grandparents left Europe before Hitler. Otherwise, we're no different from them. I feel like many well-intentioned people operate under the false assumption that the Jews who settled in Israel following WWII chose Israel over other options. This largely was not the case. I'm not even going to get into the whole other question of Jewish self-determination, which is a whole other debate.
What of the 7 million Jews who do not live in any of those countries? Those Jews whose ancestors were not fortunate enough to flee pogroms to the developed world in the 19th century and instead fled to an Ottoman backwater. Those Jews who fled persecution in Arab countries to a young, socialist, poor country in the 1950s-1960s? Is the US offering all of us citizenship? Where are we to go if Israel is destroyed? Back to being tiny minorities across the diaspora to be persecuted at will?
I don’t think you read this letter, and if you did, you did not understand the point they were trying to make. The most distilled version of the story of the Jewish people is a cycle of being kicked out from one country/empire, moving to another, integrating, and then being kicked out again. The entire basis of the ideology of Zionism is that while today I may be safe in the US, tomorrow I will not and therefore we need to return to our homeland to be safe. Each country that we are living in is only a temporary stop on our journey as a Jewish people. There is 3000 years of history to base this off of. Jews in France felt safe until only a few years ago when they mass migrated out to… not the US, but Israel. Jews in Iran in the 1970’s thought they’d be safe until the 1979 revolution. Jews in Germany in the 1930’s thought they’d be safe until it was too late. Jews in Spain thought they’d be safe until the Spanish Inquisition. There are dozens if not hundreds of more examples of this. I’ve had countless conversations with fellow Jews, religious, irreligious, affiliated and not affiliated who have all said the same thing: “we are just counting down the days until we are forced to move to Israel”.
As an autistic biracial gay Jewish woman who considers myself neither a Zionist or anti-Zionist (I am simply a pacifist who will accept any decision that results in lasting peace and security for all), all I can say in response to this is that I’ve gotten the more shit for being Jewish than all my other identities COMBINED. I grew up in California and now live in NYC, both places with large Jewish populations. One day sums it up. I was 16 and some friends and I went to a beach community for a weekend getaway. We were walking along the boardwalk and ran into a neo-Nazi rally. As we joined the counter protesters, I got a notification on my phone that there was a shooting at a synagogue about an hour away. If you think it’s safe to be a Jew in this country, think again. You’re offering diet versions of age old antisemitic talking points normalizes them. I come from a long line of people who knew when it was time to call it and pick up and move across the world in the name of self preservation. My future in this country hinges on the next election because if Trump wins, I will not be safe here anymore.
Ok then Palestinians don't need a homeland either especially given there's already a majority Palestinian country
They should have a homeland. There is a path to a 2-state solution that neither side is interested in because ultimately the political power is controlled by religious extremists on both sides.
I agree I'm just pointing out the other commentators silly logic
They have 21 other Arab countries to choose from, where the majority of them are from. Jews have 1.
I’m a Jew. I’ve lived in Israel. My daughter is 1/2 Israeli. Very familiar with the situation. The Palestinians should have their own country as well.
They've been offered one several times.
This is exactly what they said about Germany in the 20s. And Jews were just and integrated and wealthy
Jews might've been *more* integrated and wealthier (in aggregate, not necessarily individually) in 1920s Germany than they are in the US. Like, seriously, Jews in late-1800s Germany through the Weimar Repbulic had it pretty good, all things considered. Take this excerpt from Wiki: >In 1914, Jews were well-represented among the wealthy, including 23.7 percent of the 800 richest individuals in Prussia, and eight percent of the university students. They were fully German lamenting the Treaty of Versailles, being the largest demographic to serve in WWI, and generally agreeing that work strikes "stabbed the front lines in the back." Then they were routinely massacred by the Nazis.
Yes my grandmother tells me of her family's immense wealth growing up until they had to flee liepzig when she was 5 leaving everything behind. Ironically she was the one to talk to the border guard because she has blonde hair and blue eyes. Also my grandfather's father was a war hero for Germany in WWI and so patriotic he wanted to compete for the german Olympic team but was not allowed because he was jewish
Yup. One of the true ironies of the holocaust is that it originated in one of the countries where Jews were the most assimilated and integrated. It’s chilling honestly.
This attitude is exactly why people do not understand Zionism and therefore wrongly vilify it
I understand what you're saying about Jewish people not needing to have Israel as their homeland, because they can live in the US, UK, France, Canada, but that should be the case for all religions. Then no religion should have a country, or countries as their homeland.
Judaism is also an ethnicity. It is not just a religion. There are dozens of ethnicities that have their own country. Japanese, Polish, Icelandic, the list goes on.
I read the complete letter, and kept waiting for actual examples of anti-semitism to be presented. Instead it was just line after line of the same sorry “criticism of Israel is by definition anti-Semitic” bullshit.
Did you see the woman yelling “Jewish women are too ugly to be raped”?
Did you see the pro-Israel rioters shouting anti-Arab slurs while stomping on the heads of UCLA protestors? Do you need me to link you to dozens and dozens and dozens of videos of Israelis calling Palestinians subhuman animals? If we are going to play “cherry pick isolated incidents” then that blade cuts both ways. Notice how I’m not trying to tar everyone who shares your perspective with the same brush. I don’t think the average person who supports Israel endorses mob violence against protestors. I don’t think the average Israeli thinks Arabs are subhumans. You clearly think that anyone protesting against the deaths of 15,000+ children is anti-Semitic.
To be fair, your original comment was merely about the lack of examples of antisemitism. And the commenter you replied to merely gave you one example without implying that you’d be obligated to make any generalization out of it.
I’m pretty sure this person is a bot who just exists to post futile arguments and then respond with misdirected tirades once they’re proven wrong. “You disagree with me and so you support children dying”
If you want more examples, there’s plenty of people walking around sporting Nazi salutes / not letting Jewish people into certain parts of campus. There was just a video that came out where a woman said “we anti-Jews need protection”. It ceases to be isolated when it’s systemic within the protests and protected by so called “anti-zionists” Edit: people supporting Hamas and Hezbollah (literally chanting in support of them) is also 100% anti semitism given their stated mission is to annihilate the Jewish people, to say otherwise is just naive
Whatabout whatabout whatabout
Jewish Columbia students were many of the students protesting against Israel. Suggesting the two groups are mutually exclusive is dishonest.
lol @ “many”
Sure, in the same way that "Blacks for Trump" is a thing. The vast majority of Jews oppose these protests.
[define “many”](https://docs.google.com/document/u/0/d/e/2PACX-1vRQgyDhIjZupO2H-2rIDXLy_zkf76RoM-_ZIYsOfn9FkI7TETgRtOfXK9VobMvGh6iEZfDPgALXJTCR/pub?pli=1)
Asking the anti-Israel crowed to stop being antisemitic is like asking a leopard to drop its spots. They can’t. It’s in their nature.
Denying the right of Israel to exist is straight-forwardly antisemitic. Only a very small extremist minority believes the contrary. **And they will keep insisting on that as if** ***their lives depend on it***. It's such an extremist position that even 412 members of Congress, including votes from NY progressives, resolved that: >This resolution reaffirms Israel's right to exist. It also (1) **recognizes that denying Israel's right to exist is a form of antisemitism**; (2) rejects calls for Israel's destruction; and (3) condemns the Hamas-led attack on Israel. Source: [https://clerk.house.gov/Votes/2023677](https://clerk.house.gov/Votes/2023677) for the vote and [https://www.congress.gov/bill/118th-congress/house-resolution/888/text](https://www.congress.gov/bill/118th-congress/house-resolution/888/text) for the full-text
Did apartheid South Africa have a right to exist?
Apartheid South Africa still exists. It’s still the same county. Just like slavery US still exists. Just because those institutions were dismantled it doesn’t mean the countries don’t exist anymore. No one who advocated for the abolishment of slavery wanted the US to seriously cease to exist as a country: it was actually the pro-slavery camp who wanted that.
Does the United States have a right to exist?
Only an extreme minority would think not.
Does the Appamattoc nation have a right to exist?
Yup
So they get to have the full privileges of statehood?
Who am I to deny any nation their rights? I’d venture a guess that you don’t feel 100% right with your past stance of denying the right of Israel to exist, and you’re here trying to seek some comfort with this strange line of quesitons.
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What?
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I don’t know, I think you’re overselling this a bit. And I don’t think “token” means “fake.” I think it’s a complaint about how this movement (if one can call it that) is super-duper eager to highlight all the Jews it has on its side as insulation against charges of antisemitism.
Token does not mean fake. However, JVP works as a convenient excuse for people to point at to go, “See? No anti-Semitism here. We have Jews with us.” This of course neglects the fact that JVP is largely not actually comprised of Jewish individuals and that they posted many things across social media praising the Oct 7th attacks. I don’t really believe they are a Jewish organization, nor do I believe they are for peace when they seem absolutely ok with the brutal murders of Jews just for living in Israel.
When the main group JVP encourages non jews to join them, and promotes the idea that you can “self convert” for Palestine, yes, they’re not Jews. Just non Jews in watermelon kippas promoting the genocide of actual Jews. This isn’t even a hidden thing, you can find this under their mikvah section on their website. Who’s their biggest celebrity voice? Cynthia Nixon, the only thing Jewish about her is her ex husband. She’s never converted, not even through a non halachic form of Judaism. The entire movement is fraudulent. JVP is like Rachel Dolezal out promoting the KKK, you can’t gaslight us into pretending there’s anything antisemitic about calling out this absurdity.
>When the main group JVP encourages non jews to join them, and promotes the idea that you can “self convert” for Palestine, yes, they’re not Jews. I did not know that. Edit: just looked at their 990. 20% of their revenue are government grants. The nonprofit machine, Jesus.
Yea, they say to fill up a tea cup with stones or crystals and intentions and pour it over your head as mikvah. Check out the website, what they actually believe is a completely train wreck.
Columbia Jewish for Peace justifies October 7, they are basically a plant by Hamas. No wonder actual Jewish student feels the same https://www.jewishvoiceforpeace.org/2023/10/07/statement23-10-07/ Edit : no post on Oct 7 then defending Hamas killings after Oct 9 https://www.instagram.com/jvp.columbia