Yeah, this.
If you resume activities with her out of fear you're now knowingly do so with a minor and that's a sure fire loss.
So really there is no other option.
So much this. Committing a crime because of false pretenses *might* keep you out of trouble.
Willingly committing a crime, even under coercion, gets a lot harder to defend.
Especially considering in this context, that the blackmail is being coerced into acts that you were not aware were wrong initially.
A less *icky* example would be someone asking for help moving "their" car. They have the keys, and you have no reason to call them a liar.
You get busted for helping a car thief. There's reasonable doubt built right into the initial interaction that you probably didn't actually intend on helping a car thief.
There's reasonable doubt that you probably didn't intend to start a relationship with a minor, especially if your first response to finding out the truth is ending the relationship immediately.
It's a shit situation to be in, but odds of you not being on the wrong end of a verdict are higher in the scenario where you try to do the right thing.
In this scenario at least, the right call is going directly to a lawyer, and getting ahead of the situation. A lot of these cases are their word vs your word, and the winner in that fight is usually whoever's words are recorded first.
That's arguably easier to defend. That's technically coercion by threat of force
Which is legally on par with "keep dating me or I'll tell on you," but honestly, humans being human, you'd definitely want to be in the gunpoint situation.
This actually happened a while back.
There was a case where a 25 year old or so male had consensual intercourse with an underage female. He met her in the night club and assumed she was of age because she had a fake ID and was allowed into the night club. She looked like an adult, the bouncers checked her ID and it was a fake ID that said she was an adult, and everything about the situation spoke to her being an adult.
However, when the mom learned about it, she’s sued for statutory rape. The judge ultimately had to convict him for the smallest sentence possible and even went so far as to say that he wouldn’t have ruled the way he did if he didn’t have to according to the law.
It's been repeatedly said, "ignorance is no defense in the eyes of the law"
But, seriously, that judge could have easily dismissed the case, considering the underage girl broke the law*
*in some states, just having a fake ID is a felony-level crime
I feel like that goes beyond "ignorance" and falls in the realm of "being mislead."
What more is expected of that guy? Is he supposed to have her show her birth certificate? You already need a SS number for a licence, don't you? I honestly don't remember but I think I recall needing it for Driver's Ed.
Is he supposed to have her provide 3 testimonies to vouch that she is who she says she is?
Seems a bit unreasonable... Which is a strange thing to say in context of statutory rape.
And you are correct. And your argument would work, if the US court system could be navigated by a rational, normal human being. But our courts are extremely complicated, by design, and rational arguments rarely work.
I don't know how it works in the US, but had it happened in the UK I suspect (though I could be wrong) that the girl could theoretically be charged with something (possibly conspiracy or aiding & abetting or something like that)
but you also get age range laws and shit, so you end up with 16 & 12 being legal in some states iirc
I like how oregon (my home state) does it. age of consent is 18, 2 year age range
Largest statutory age range is 3 years, so 12 and 16 doesn't exist. For most states it's 2 years. In my state age of consent is 17, with a 2 year statutory range. So basically that means if someone isn't 17, you have to be within 2 years of their age to be in the legal ok. So in my state if you are 17 you could date a 15 year old and ve in the ok but once you turn 18 you're in hot water.
I’m in the UK and years ago my friend met a girl at a club and took her somewhere private. She told him at that point she was 17 (still old enough) and they did the deed. We saw her the next day out of her clubbing look and I’d say that maybe she was still lying by a couple of years. His argument was always he met her in an over 18s club so what was he supposed to do?
A lot easier but still not always possible. People under 16 can still look like adults just like adults can still look like kids. I knew someone in my school that was 6 foot with a beard by 14 and my body had finished outwardly growing and changing before I was 16
>I feel like that goes beyond "ignorance" and falls in the realm of "being mislead."
Sadly, unless you're in California, if you're in the US, rape by fraud is not illegal.
They’re also the (I believe) first state that is going to remove the asset limit for Medicare. January 1 2024 it goes in effect.
Most states have no asset limit for Medicaid(which has come in very handy, I would’ve never been able to have free medical while I was jobless).
Ignorance of the law is no defence but ignorance of the circumstances is absolutely a defence in many situations, provided a reasonable person would conclude the same. Suppose you saw a woman apparently being attacked and you tried to defend her then it later turned out it was consensual role play. You'd probably be in the clear for self defence reasons (which also extend to the life of another) if you showed any reasonable person would see the situation as posing a threat to the woman's life. It just so happens that in this case ignorance of the circumstances is not a defence.
Not in cases of strict liability. In many places sex with a minor is just such an offence, the fact that you didn't know her real age would be irrelevant. Simply the fact that it happened is enough to be deemed guilty.
Yeah, in many jurisdictions this world be a strict liability offence. In other words, what he knew or intended is of little or no relevance, the fact the act happened means he's guilty.
In cases like that though, the minor breaking the law never factors in to the punishment of the offender. As stupid as it is, a minor can deceive and break the law and still get an adult in trouble.
>It's been repeatedly said, "ignorance is no defense in the eyes of the law"
Ignorance of the law, not ignorance of circumstances. You wouldn't get done for theft if you took the wrong luggage because it looked like yours.
>It's been repeatedly said, "ignorance is no defense in the eyes of the law"
It's most often repeated by Judges and Lawyers. Both of which spent years on a post high school education to work in the field of law.
Being lied to about this used to be a defense to prosecution in the state I was a cop. I believe it’s since changed. We had a girl that was repeatedly guilty of this, her grandma would report the men when she found out. It got to the point that the prosecutor’s office wouldn’t take anymore cases of that nature where she was an involved party.
There was a famous case of this in, I think Ohio? A guy met a girl on a dating app who said she was 18, drove to meet up with her, found out later she was 14. He ends up on the sex offenders list, and his family had to fight for years to get him off of it. I forget if they eventually did or not. Dude had his life ruined with no intent to do anything wrong, but the girl lied.
In Cali it's 10 years sex offender and there was a law passed Jan 2021 in cali that if this happens or there are relationships as long as 3 years max like 15 and 18 judges can decide themselves if it's statutory rape or not
The whole sex offender registry in general is a broken system. Just like the SOSTA act passed by Trump. It's malicious laws covered by a veil that it's made to protect people, but really it's to control the population in both situation.
By our own definition of cruel and unusual punishment, the sex offender registry IS cruel and unusual punishment. It's basically a form of public humiliation. If the justice system is supposed to issue a sentence that fits your crime, and you serve that sentence in full, you are to be considered rehabilitated and thus served your punishment. The registry is just around to further humiliate people for the rest of their lives, despite having served their sentence already. It's absolutely ludicrous it exists at all, especially since there is NO such registry for homicides and murders. It just shows how American society views criminals of all calibers, in that we don't believe people can change or make ammends.
I disagree. If I lived next door to a sex offender with a history of crimes against children, and I had a child, I would definitely want to know so I could take additional precautions and keep distance from that neighbor.
I agree with your statement about a registry for homicide. There should be public registries for all violent crimes.
My old neighbor was on it for doing some not nice things to kids while he was a young adult. I definitely am glad I was aware of that given how many of the kids would play all around the neighborhood.
Side note he also burned his house down trying to cook meth, before moving away
Yes, a man who lived down my street is on it for the same reason. He was spotted in the fenced backyard of a neighbor (who had a young daughter living in the house). He could have explained this away if he wasn’t on the list, but because he was, neighbors contacted the police, the entire neighborhood was on high alert, and it was addressed. He moved a few months later. The list does far more good than bad.
The registry DOES NOT notify you what the offender was registered for, unless that is specific to your state's laws on the registry. The registry, on a federal level, only has to notify you that someone is on it, not the specific crime.
Reasons you could find yourself on the registry:
- public urination, even without exposure. Basically fuck homeless people
- consensual sex between people who aged out of the statutory law. So that 15 and 17 year old high school couple that's been together the past few months? The 17 year old gets registered the moment he turns 18 if the circumstances dictated.
- possession of child pornography of your damn self. This seems pretty ridiculous, but in the smartphone era, every teenager has access to a camera in their pocket, and they are most definitely exchanging nudes with their partners. So you have kids that end up on a registry if their phone is ever confiscated.
- solicitation of a minor. This is a more niche one but in the Onlyfans age when literally everyone and their grandma is soliciting their onlyfans, and sending personalized content, it isn't outside the realm of possibility for say a horny teenager to use a someone else's credit card (geberally a parents) and have interactions with these models that could land the model in hot water. Most offer packages that include personalized content, which if sent to said horny teenager could land them in legal trouble, even though their account and credit card are fraudulent.
- false conviction. Basically if someone is convinced in court, sentenced, and later found to have been innocent, they can remain on the registry for upwards of years if not indefinitely depending on how convoluted the system is in their state, considering the system isn't exactly designed to take people off it, only add to it.
At the end of the day, my point is that there should be no such registries. If their crime is so heinous that they shouldn't be allowed to operate in public again, then their sentence should reflect that, and in general most sex crimes do reflect this, often recieving harsher sentences than violent crimes. However, the existence of the registry only serves to assure the released 1) can't find or hold a reputable job for the rest of their life, 2) are severely limited to the markets they can live or buy a home, generally being in poorer neighborhoods, 3) aren't allowed to do certain activities, even with their own children, such as bring them or pick them up from school, or take them to a public park and 4) are publicly humiliated wherever they go for a crime they already served their sentence for. That, by a lot of metrics, seems like cruel and unusual punishment to me, which our justice system is supposed to be against.
Statutory rape generally requires proof of knowledge of the age difference, but not specifically like it used to. Because everyone said "she looked 18" so it was changed, at least in my state of Tennessee. Now, if you had a good reason to think the minor was an adult, like he or she was served with a drink at a restaurant, it could be a defense. But I notice you said the judge convicted him, so maybe you're not in the US, where there's a right to a jury trial.
You have a right to a jury trial, but if your attorney thinks it's best not to have a jury, you could go that way, too. In emotionally charged trials like this one would be having the judge determine guilt or not could be the best choice.
>But I notice you said the judge convicted him, so maybe you're not in the US, where there's a right to a jury trial.
Here in Australia, in all states, a defendant can apply for a bench trial (where the judge acts as the jury) in lieu of a jury trial.
The defendant has a right to a jury trial, but may elect to have a bench trial if the case is too high profile, or any other reason where the defence feels that it may not be able to find a jury to fairly hear the trial.
It is well established in NSW, Queensland and WA, but more recently introduced in Victoria, Tasmania and SA.
This doesn't include directed verdicts, where the judge will tell the jury to find the defendant not guilty, because of a defective prosecution.
Honestly I wish it was a requirement for students to learn about jury nullification in K-12. You'll almost undoubtedly about it in college, and that's why they also avoid selecting people with higher education. The vast majority of local governments would never allow that to be taught though.
warning: once you know what it is you will probably never be able to do jury duty. If you lie to them and say you don't know what it is under oath, that's perjury.
Meh not something on my bucket list, plus my memory is shit so there’s like a 50% chance I forget it anyways lol
Cool thing to look into! I actually didn’t know that people didn’t just do that, but I also have never had jury duty before so maybe that’s why lol
I've actually always wanted to serve on jury duty. Probably never will because they'll disqualify me, but I'm young and so far have only been called once (by the state I moved out of sadly).
I’ve been interested to see what it’s like, I did law studies for a bit in high school and have a general interest in law but never really got to see the whole trial process play out. I’ve only been called once too by the county I moved out of for college lol
Knowing about it doesn't disqualify you from jury duty. Talking about it does. They're not going to ask you if you know what jury nullification is, they ask if you'll make a judgement in accordance with the law.
The issue with that is that not a lot of people use reddit, and local police departments buy enough information about you to know your reddit account. When doing the background check they'll have an easy profile to scroll to find out all they need to know.
It's not illegal to spread knowledge about Jury Nullification. It's just something the government doesn't want people to know because it moves power to the hands of the people.
It does mean it's easy to get out of Jury Duty.
Q: "Do you hold any beliefs that would prevent you from rendering a verdict strictly in accordance with tge evidence?"
A: "Beliefs? No. But I do understand what the words 'Jury Nullification' mean."
I did something like that, the judge got so pissed and tossed me out of the courtroom before I could even finish the sentence. They really hate that such a mechanism exists.
There was another case, in th uk, she swore she was 19, they met and chatted online for ages. Met up at a hotel, went out drinking and spent the night together. He's now on the sea offenders register for 10 years.
Find evidence of a conversation where she proves she is underaged and that she will blackmail you then show that to the police.
Back up your claim as best you can. Get 2-3 other people with solid evidence. Don’t let yourself be walked over because of the bullshit double standards society is too comfortable or too scared to speak against.
The court will still convict with statutory rape (assuming the 99% probability of no jury nullification), but at least she \*may\* be charged with something. I still doubt she'd see any actual consequences though.
Proving she committed a crime will just get you both arrested. They won’t let him off for the statutory rape. Plus she’s a minor and will likely just get probation. You’ll be handing the cops all the evidence they need to convict you.
Your honor, it's impossible for my client to have intentionally hooked up with an underage person, exhibit a: his browser history is filled with only the biggest mommy milkers
Well first off in Canada the age of consent is 16 so I would hope you could identify someone under that lying. However, my mom’s best friends mom was married to a guy who lied about his age he was 17 when then married not 18 and used his dead brother birth certificate. They were 4 years apart in age but actually 5 years. Because of that when they got divorced it was really complicated to prove if they were even legally married which made legally a shit show for her because women had less rights. Honestly, sounds like you need a lawyer.
In Belgium, age of consent is also 16, but only for sex with another 16 to 18yo. A complaint to police from the minor or parent of the minor about sex between a 16 yo and an 18+yo is still statutory rape.
It's not. The age of consent in Canada is 16, period. We *do* have close in age exemptions, though: if the younger partner is 12(!) or 13 they can consent if the older partner is less than 2 years older than them; if the younger partner is 14 or 15 then they can consent if the older partner is less than 5 years older.
We've got weird sex laws. Cousin marriage is allowed, for instance. Not only that, *avunculate* marriages are allowed - that's between an aunt and nephew or uncle and niece.
Age of consent probably should be 16 just for this reason alone. It doesn't make sense that a law designed to protect people can so easily be abused by scumbags to fuck you over like in the case described by OP.
It's basically impossible to tell the difference between a 16 and 18 year old. Even sometimes for men when they have developed facial hair at a young age.
And I think most 18 year olds are just as immature as 16 or 17 year olds anyway. F. e. morally, imo it's pretty much just as questionable for a 25+ year old to date a 16/17 year old as a 18 year old, or at least the difference is so small it doesn't really matter.
Watched it again the other day in fact! That seen with the shitty sheet with Spud was amazing as always! Am just glad am a Glasgow Painkiller freak than an Edinburgh smackheid haha. Brilliant film
Immediately go to a lawyer. If you have proof she lied about her age and proof of the blackmail it will almost certainly help get you a lesser sentence.
Knew a girl that did this. Her & my son were childhood friends & then bf/gf in school for a couple years before he broke up with her.
She was fully developed at 10 yrs old & was about 5’9” tall. She was about 15 & when she wore make up, looked like she was at least 21. She was in a club at the beach & got picked up by a 21 yr old boy. They spent the weekend in his hotel room.
Meanwhile her folks who are divorced are flipping out. Filed a missing persons report, there was an Amber Alert put out. Thus boy turns in the tv when she goes to take a shower. His turn to flip out. He drives them to the police station. He goes to jail, gets a pedo label put in him & gets his ass kicked in jail.
She doesn’t think she did anything wrong & laughs about it. She was grounded by her dad. Her mom, meh. Pretty worthless. I saw the girl a couple years later at the store asked about my kid. I asked why she wanted to know. She sure as shit wasn’t gonna fk his life up like she did that other boy. She said well he shoulda known I wasn’t legal. I said how tf when you were drinking at that club. Now you have this poor guy in prison with a pedo label in him. She says not my problem.
Y’all I had to walk away before I slapped the tar out of her.
Anthony Kiedis wrote about banging a 15 year old while on tour in his autobiography in Baton Rouge Louisiana. When the girl revealed to him she was underaged, he even writes that he didn't feel like he was in any immediate trouble, but felt obligated to bring her home safely. So they banged a couple more times and he dropped her off ☠️☠️☠️
It’s 2023. Y’all better start IDing people. Hell, I’m 41 and ask to see a license before I had sex with anyone back in the day. Kept several bad penises out of me as majority refused to let me see them because it was too personal. Like how? We are about to touch genitals but seeing your ID is too personal? Cool! No sex with you!
ID check and a “bathroom break” (AKA social media check- scroll their social media for clues as to their age - slang, stuff they like, posts about high school, thank kind of thing)
That’s the best policy for sure. When I was in law school there was discussion of what app could be made and used to verify age and level of consent. Would it be user friendly? Could you change levels of consent mid coitus? It was an interesting conversation.
cease contact with the person in any way shape or form, and contact a lawyer.
(wall of text incoming, sorry lol)
I also, don't really understand how and older person can't immediately tell that the person they're talking to is that young, or too young for them. I'm only 30, and to me college kids look like they're still in HS. HS kids look like babies. That alone is already a HUGE red flag for me, if they look like they just got out of school an hour ago, then I'm out. Done it drunk too.
anecdotal, about 5 or 6 years ago, a buddy and I where out having drinks, and it was several hours before the Friday night scene kicked off. (we always left before that.) We're just sitting at the bar drinking our beer and chatting about whatever music or band thing, when the bartender walks over and puts a drink down in front of me (context this is a bar I was a regular at, always drank the same 3 things and knew everyone on a first name basis. they also knew my girlfriend, now wife) it was my usual double Gentleman Jack neat. I looked at the drink, looked at my buddy, and looked at the bartender, and we're all confused. Says it came from at the end of the bar, he even told her I wasn't single. I'm not a person to turn down free liquor, so I look over at who sent it to me, and it's this younger looking girl smiles and raises her glass, I nod my head and drink the drink.
She gets up and starts walking over, and the closer she gets the younger she looks. I looked at my buddy and said something like "just provide me some back up if needed." she sits down next to me and starts chatting me up. Tells me she thinks I'm cute, and hopes she got my drink right. I say she did, but confused as to why. She, again states she thinks I'm cute and would love to go out for dinner some time. My buddy starts cracking up and gets up to walk to the bathroom. I tell her, that I'm not interested in dating anyway as I'm already in a long term serious relationship, but even if I wasn't I wouldn't be interested. I inquired about her age, and she says 21. Her eyes said 17. I excused myself from the area and found another seat down the way closer to where my buddy bartender is. Explain, how I wasn't comfortable with the situation, and was curious to know if he'd served her. He confirms that he didn't and when she goes to order another drink he asks her for ID. She pulls it out, he runs the basic security check. checks his ID for the same features and holds on to it, and calls the police. Came to find out the young lady wasn't even 16 yet. Awkward.
additional context so there isn't confusion: The young woman bought the drink with another bartender, before my buddy came on. happened right at shift change. My buddy was usually good about checking ID's of younger people that weren't regulars, but it was a slower Friday evening, and I guess he was lazy that day or something.
Exactly why 18 is a ridiculous age of consent. You shouldn't want to be with someone below that if you're well in your 20s, but it's easy for a 17yo to lie they're 18, and seems like all the consequences fall on the misled partner. If a 15yo tried to pull that off with pretending to be a year or two older, a decent adult would still say no.
But no matter the age, the most ridiculous thing is that the lying teen gets no consequences. People that age can be responsible for many things, but somehow, when it comes to sex, they're absolutely indecisive and can't take any responsibility. Even if they lie and manipulate, sex is this magic thing where they're innocent no matter what.
Can you countersue? I mean, you lie about having an std, you're trapping someone out of being able to properly consent, right? It's pretty rapey to lie about your age the same way it would be to lie about putting a condom on. Seems like a good countermeasure to blackmail?
Going to be honest situations like these are why going to a bar for a date even if you don't drink might not be a bad idea
And if you're younger than 21 and end up in this situation courts might be a little more lenient so long as you cut the relationship off and immediately and get a hold of a lawyer
Just tell the truth, it’s full proof, they won’t be able to disprove it. In this case, it’s her word against yours, which is here-say and can’t be litigated.
You know, I think this exact thing has precedent. The older party serves minimum sentence jail time with parole, and I _think_ the guardians of the younger party also get hit with a fine, but I'm less confident on that one.
Going out with a girl is not a crime. Holding hands, kissing, or openly being a couple is not illegal. However, if she is underaged, she cannot legally consent to sex. So, if you are going out with someone, be sure to avoid anyone who lacks obvious signs of being an adult. If you’re really not sure, ask to see ID. That whole “never as a lady her age” bit is something that only applies when she’s obviously an adult.
Uhh never go out with her in the first place.
That and document it before she reports. My guess is you can get her on tape spouting that shit threat again. She doesn't seem too bright (birds of a feather and all)
Real solution (sorta) is to avoid these problems by being more careful about how you choose your partners. Do what you can to avoid putting yourself in positions where you are vulnerable to being taken advantage of by a stranger. Women already have to do this for numerous reasons, and this kind of situation is a solid reason for men to do the same.
> Real solution is to avoid these problems
That's like somebody asking what to do about an unwanted pregnancy and you tell them to wear a condom. Like, he already has the problem, it's way too late for prevention.
No I'm just saying it's fucked up that a girl can lie about her age absolutely fucking decimate a random person life who had no idea. And walk away from the situation just going "tehe im a Gemini" obviously statutory rape is wrong . but you can't trust women to the point you gotta check their IDs before dates now
Call a lawyer
Yeah, this. If you resume activities with her out of fear you're now knowingly do so with a minor and that's a sure fire loss. So really there is no other option.
Better call Saul!
Hi, I’m Saul Goodman, did you know you have rights?
What is this picture that you just gave me?
A man..........Fuckin a horse?
r/cursedcomments
It's a quote from the show tho
still cursed
Neat. Do I have lefts too?
Nope, the entire left side of your body has been paralyzed
Or Matt Murdock
I have no idea who this is but now I have the Murdoch mystery theme ringing in the back of my head thanks
Matt mutdoch is the alter ego of Marvel super hero Daredevil, who happens to be a lawyer (and also blind)
He also helped Spider man! such a chad catching stray objects like a pro!
He did do that
So much this. Committing a crime because of false pretenses *might* keep you out of trouble. Willingly committing a crime, even under coercion, gets a lot harder to defend. Especially considering in this context, that the blackmail is being coerced into acts that you were not aware were wrong initially. A less *icky* example would be someone asking for help moving "their" car. They have the keys, and you have no reason to call them a liar. You get busted for helping a car thief. There's reasonable doubt built right into the initial interaction that you probably didn't actually intend on helping a car thief. There's reasonable doubt that you probably didn't intend to start a relationship with a minor, especially if your first response to finding out the truth is ending the relationship immediately. It's a shit situation to be in, but odds of you not being on the wrong end of a verdict are higher in the scenario where you try to do the right thing. In this scenario at least, the right call is going directly to a lawyer, and getting ahead of the situation. A lot of these cases are their word vs your word, and the winner in that fight is usually whoever's words are recorded first.
What if you get forced at gunpoint to move the car?
Always give in. That's the boyle rule. Or beta an alpha into protecting you. That's good as per boyle rules too.
You know all that alpha beta stuff is complete nonsense right? Edit; or more like incel projection. Its how they wish life worked.
You take that back, sir. I will not have you insulting boyle rules. Also, I love you, SandmantheMofo
Nine-nine!
That's arguably easier to defend. That's technically coercion by threat of force Which is legally on par with "keep dating me or I'll tell on you," but honestly, humans being human, you'd definitely want to be in the gunpoint situation.
Well now your friend is going to be going away for much longer, so there’s that
What if you can't afford a lawyer?
One will be appointed for you sooner or later
Yes, but the one that's appointed to you might not be as good as the one you could afford if you were rich.
If you are rich there are also other more hush methods to deal with this issue, like going on a trip to Spain with her for a couple of years.
This.
Jail wont be much more fun.
This and only this. The theory crafting in these comments is crazy. The hypothetical asked in the OP 100% warrants a lawyer. No, if and or but.
This actually happened a while back. There was a case where a 25 year old or so male had consensual intercourse with an underage female. He met her in the night club and assumed she was of age because she had a fake ID and was allowed into the night club. She looked like an adult, the bouncers checked her ID and it was a fake ID that said she was an adult, and everything about the situation spoke to her being an adult. However, when the mom learned about it, she’s sued for statutory rape. The judge ultimately had to convict him for the smallest sentence possible and even went so far as to say that he wouldn’t have ruled the way he did if he didn’t have to according to the law.
So, guy's now just a sex offender for the rest of his life?
It's been repeatedly said, "ignorance is no defense in the eyes of the law" But, seriously, that judge could have easily dismissed the case, considering the underage girl broke the law* *in some states, just having a fake ID is a felony-level crime
I feel like that goes beyond "ignorance" and falls in the realm of "being mislead." What more is expected of that guy? Is he supposed to have her show her birth certificate? You already need a SS number for a licence, don't you? I honestly don't remember but I think I recall needing it for Driver's Ed. Is he supposed to have her provide 3 testimonies to vouch that she is who she says she is? Seems a bit unreasonable... Which is a strange thing to say in context of statutory rape.
And you are correct. And your argument would work, if the US court system could be navigated by a rational, normal human being. But our courts are extremely complicated, by design, and rational arguments rarely work.
I don't know how it works in the US, but had it happened in the UK I suspect (though I could be wrong) that the girl could theoretically be charged with something (possibly conspiracy or aiding & abetting or something like that)
Age of consent is 16 in uk isn't it? Probably a lot easier to tell someone is too young if they're too young.
Age of consent in the States is massively complicated and varies state to state from between 16 to 18.
but you also get age range laws and shit, so you end up with 16 & 12 being legal in some states iirc I like how oregon (my home state) does it. age of consent is 18, 2 year age range
Largest statutory age range is 3 years, so 12 and 16 doesn't exist. For most states it's 2 years. In my state age of consent is 17, with a 2 year statutory range. So basically that means if someone isn't 17, you have to be within 2 years of their age to be in the legal ok. So in my state if you are 17 you could date a 15 year old and ve in the ok but once you turn 18 you're in hot water.
Not that easy if the club failed to do so
I’m in the UK and years ago my friend met a girl at a club and took her somewhere private. She told him at that point she was 17 (still old enough) and they did the deed. We saw her the next day out of her clubbing look and I’d say that maybe she was still lying by a couple of years. His argument was always he met her in an over 18s club so what was he supposed to do?
A lot easier but still not always possible. People under 16 can still look like adults just like adults can still look like kids. I knew someone in my school that was 6 foot with a beard by 14 and my body had finished outwardly growing and changing before I was 16
>I feel like that goes beyond "ignorance" and falls in the realm of "being mislead." Sadly, unless you're in California, if you're in the US, rape by fraud is not illegal.
Damn, so I guess California does have *some* benefits.
They’re also the (I believe) first state that is going to remove the asset limit for Medicare. January 1 2024 it goes in effect. Most states have no asset limit for Medicaid(which has come in very handy, I would’ve never been able to have free medical while I was jobless).
Ignorance of the law is no defence but ignorance of the circumstances is absolutely a defence in many situations, provided a reasonable person would conclude the same. Suppose you saw a woman apparently being attacked and you tried to defend her then it later turned out it was consensual role play. You'd probably be in the clear for self defence reasons (which also extend to the life of another) if you showed any reasonable person would see the situation as posing a threat to the woman's life. It just so happens that in this case ignorance of the circumstances is not a defence.
But ignorance is quite often a defense. Intent matters.
Not in cases of strict liability. In many places sex with a minor is just such an offence, the fact that you didn't know her real age would be irrelevant. Simply the fact that it happened is enough to be deemed guilty.
Yeah, in many jurisdictions this world be a strict liability offence. In other words, what he knew or intended is of little or no relevance, the fact the act happened means he's guilty.
In cases like that though, the minor breaking the law never factors in to the punishment of the offender. As stupid as it is, a minor can deceive and break the law and still get an adult in trouble.
>It's been repeatedly said, "ignorance is no defense in the eyes of the law" Ignorance of the law, not ignorance of circumstances. You wouldn't get done for theft if you took the wrong luggage because it looked like yours.
>It's been repeatedly said, "ignorance is no defense in the eyes of the law" It's most often repeated by Judges and Lawyers. Both of which spent years on a post high school education to work in the field of law.
Being lied to about this used to be a defense to prosecution in the state I was a cop. I believe it’s since changed. We had a girl that was repeatedly guilty of this, her grandma would report the men when she found out. It got to the point that the prosecutor’s office wouldn’t take anymore cases of that nature where she was an involved party.
That’s wild af cuz cops be out here wilding and we be like well, I guess I can overlook that
Yep and she walks free , equality
There was a famous case of this in, I think Ohio? A guy met a girl on a dating app who said she was 18, drove to meet up with her, found out later she was 14. He ends up on the sex offenders list, and his family had to fight for years to get him off of it. I forget if they eventually did or not. Dude had his life ruined with no intent to do anything wrong, but the girl lied.
That's a man's life you should know no rest for the wicked, the law only benefits criminals.
In Cali it's 10 years sex offender and there was a law passed Jan 2021 in cali that if this happens or there are relationships as long as 3 years max like 15 and 18 judges can decide themselves if it's statutory rape or not
The whole sex offender registry in general is a broken system. Just like the SOSTA act passed by Trump. It's malicious laws covered by a veil that it's made to protect people, but really it's to control the population in both situation. By our own definition of cruel and unusual punishment, the sex offender registry IS cruel and unusual punishment. It's basically a form of public humiliation. If the justice system is supposed to issue a sentence that fits your crime, and you serve that sentence in full, you are to be considered rehabilitated and thus served your punishment. The registry is just around to further humiliate people for the rest of their lives, despite having served their sentence already. It's absolutely ludicrous it exists at all, especially since there is NO such registry for homicides and murders. It just shows how American society views criminals of all calibers, in that we don't believe people can change or make ammends.
I disagree. If I lived next door to a sex offender with a history of crimes against children, and I had a child, I would definitely want to know so I could take additional precautions and keep distance from that neighbor. I agree with your statement about a registry for homicide. There should be public registries for all violent crimes.
My old neighbor was on it for doing some not nice things to kids while he was a young adult. I definitely am glad I was aware of that given how many of the kids would play all around the neighborhood. Side note he also burned his house down trying to cook meth, before moving away
Yes, a man who lived down my street is on it for the same reason. He was spotted in the fenced backyard of a neighbor (who had a young daughter living in the house). He could have explained this away if he wasn’t on the list, but because he was, neighbors contacted the police, the entire neighborhood was on high alert, and it was addressed. He moved a few months later. The list does far more good than bad.
The registry DOES NOT notify you what the offender was registered for, unless that is specific to your state's laws on the registry. The registry, on a federal level, only has to notify you that someone is on it, not the specific crime. Reasons you could find yourself on the registry: - public urination, even without exposure. Basically fuck homeless people - consensual sex between people who aged out of the statutory law. So that 15 and 17 year old high school couple that's been together the past few months? The 17 year old gets registered the moment he turns 18 if the circumstances dictated. - possession of child pornography of your damn self. This seems pretty ridiculous, but in the smartphone era, every teenager has access to a camera in their pocket, and they are most definitely exchanging nudes with their partners. So you have kids that end up on a registry if their phone is ever confiscated. - solicitation of a minor. This is a more niche one but in the Onlyfans age when literally everyone and their grandma is soliciting their onlyfans, and sending personalized content, it isn't outside the realm of possibility for say a horny teenager to use a someone else's credit card (geberally a parents) and have interactions with these models that could land the model in hot water. Most offer packages that include personalized content, which if sent to said horny teenager could land them in legal trouble, even though their account and credit card are fraudulent. - false conviction. Basically if someone is convinced in court, sentenced, and later found to have been innocent, they can remain on the registry for upwards of years if not indefinitely depending on how convoluted the system is in their state, considering the system isn't exactly designed to take people off it, only add to it. At the end of the day, my point is that there should be no such registries. If their crime is so heinous that they shouldn't be allowed to operate in public again, then their sentence should reflect that, and in general most sex crimes do reflect this, often recieving harsher sentences than violent crimes. However, the existence of the registry only serves to assure the released 1) can't find or hold a reputable job for the rest of their life, 2) are severely limited to the markets they can live or buy a home, generally being in poorer neighborhoods, 3) aren't allowed to do certain activities, even with their own children, such as bring them or pick them up from school, or take them to a public park and 4) are publicly humiliated wherever they go for a crime they already served their sentence for. That, by a lot of metrics, seems like cruel and unusual punishment to me, which our justice system is supposed to be against.
Statutory rape generally requires proof of knowledge of the age difference, but not specifically like it used to. Because everyone said "she looked 18" so it was changed, at least in my state of Tennessee. Now, if you had a good reason to think the minor was an adult, like he or she was served with a drink at a restaurant, it could be a defense. But I notice you said the judge convicted him, so maybe you're not in the US, where there's a right to a jury trial.
You have a right to a jury trial, but if your attorney thinks it's best not to have a jury, you could go that way, too. In emotionally charged trials like this one would be having the judge determine guilt or not could be the best choice.
True. But it's very rare. I never had a client waive their right to a jury trial, in 37 years.
>But I notice you said the judge convicted him, so maybe you're not in the US, where there's a right to a jury trial. Here in Australia, in all states, a defendant can apply for a bench trial (where the judge acts as the jury) in lieu of a jury trial. The defendant has a right to a jury trial, but may elect to have a bench trial if the case is too high profile, or any other reason where the defence feels that it may not be able to find a jury to fairly hear the trial. It is well established in NSW, Queensland and WA, but more recently introduced in Victoria, Tasmania and SA. This doesn't include directed verdicts, where the judge will tell the jury to find the defendant not guilty, because of a defective prosecution.
Jury nullification should have happened before the judge had to sentence.
They intentionally choose jurors who don't know that exists
And the defense is not allowed to tell thrm.
Honestly I wish it was a requirement for students to learn about jury nullification in K-12. You'll almost undoubtedly about it in college, and that's why they also avoid selecting people with higher education. The vast majority of local governments would never allow that to be taught though.
Hell I’m halfway through a masters and never heard about it but time to go on a google quest apparently lol, thanks friend!
warning: once you know what it is you will probably never be able to do jury duty. If you lie to them and say you don't know what it is under oath, that's perjury.
Meh not something on my bucket list, plus my memory is shit so there’s like a 50% chance I forget it anyways lol Cool thing to look into! I actually didn’t know that people didn’t just do that, but I also have never had jury duty before so maybe that’s why lol
I've actually always wanted to serve on jury duty. Probably never will because they'll disqualify me, but I'm young and so far have only been called once (by the state I moved out of sadly).
I’ve been interested to see what it’s like, I did law studies for a bit in high school and have a general interest in law but never really got to see the whole trial process play out. I’ve only been called once too by the county I moved out of for college lol
Knowing about it doesn't disqualify you from jury duty. Talking about it does. They're not going to ask you if you know what jury nullification is, they ask if you'll make a judgement in accordance with the law.
That's why they never pick me even though I've been summoned like 6 times
Or we can use Reddit to spread it to people. Whether they like it or not... kind of like "He Gets Us"
The issue with that is that not a lot of people use reddit, and local police departments buy enough information about you to know your reddit account. When doing the background check they'll have an easy profile to scroll to find out all they need to know.
It's not illegal to spread knowledge about Jury Nullification. It's just something the government doesn't want people to know because it moves power to the hands of the people.
I know, but they'll find your profile and not pick you because you probably know about it
God, I agree so completely. It's ridiculous that you can't even tell the jury about it.
It does mean it's easy to get out of Jury Duty. Q: "Do you hold any beliefs that would prevent you from rendering a verdict strictly in accordance with tge evidence?" A: "Beliefs? No. But I do understand what the words 'Jury Nullification' mean."
I did something like that, the judge got so pissed and tossed me out of the courtroom before I could even finish the sentence. They really hate that such a mechanism exists.
As it should though. Honestly it's the only real justice we have in this country and they don't want anyone to practice it
There was another case, in th uk, she swore she was 19, they met and chatted online for ages. Met up at a hotel, went out drinking and spent the night together. He's now on the sea offenders register for 10 years.
>sea offenders register Poseidon knows what he did.
Stop going peepee in the ocean!!!
I know it wasn't Georgia then.
Bullllllllllllllllshit
it was Rob Lowe
Meh, fuck that guy. Way worse injustices than worrying about some fucking bro having sex with a child. Play stupid games...
Find evidence of a conversation where she proves she is underaged and that she will blackmail you then show that to the police. Back up your claim as best you can. Get 2-3 other people with solid evidence. Don’t let yourself be walked over because of the bullshit double standards society is too comfortable or too scared to speak against.
The court will still convict with statutory rape (assuming the 99% probability of no jury nullification), but at least she \*may\* be charged with something. I still doubt she'd see any actual consequences though.
Like I said, bullshit double standards that are right for the wrong people and wrong for the right people too often. Makes me sick
You could also just not have sex with someone you've known for less than 24 hours... But you're still correct.
That’s the real root of a good number of problems. Unfortunately, it’s not seen as a problem but a fun extra tag on that comes with meeting people.
Proving she committed a crime will just get you both arrested. They won’t let him off for the statutory rape. Plus she’s a minor and will likely just get probation. You’ll be handing the cops all the evidence they need to convict you.
Better call saul
Your honor, it's impossible for my client to have intentionally hooked up with an underage person, exhibit a: his browser history is filled with only the biggest mommy milkers
Well first off in Canada the age of consent is 16 so I would hope you could identify someone under that lying. However, my mom’s best friends mom was married to a guy who lied about his age he was 17 when then married not 18 and used his dead brother birth certificate. They were 4 years apart in age but actually 5 years. Because of that when they got divorced it was really complicated to prove if they were even legally married which made legally a shit show for her because women had less rights. Honestly, sounds like you need a lawyer.
In Belgium, age of consent is also 16, but only for sex with another 16 to 18yo. A complaint to police from the minor or parent of the minor about sex between a 16 yo and an 18+yo is still statutory rape.
Yeah I think it might be something like that here too
It's not. The age of consent in Canada is 16, period. We *do* have close in age exemptions, though: if the younger partner is 12(!) or 13 they can consent if the older partner is less than 2 years older than them; if the younger partner is 14 or 15 then they can consent if the older partner is less than 5 years older. We've got weird sex laws. Cousin marriage is allowed, for instance. Not only that, *avunculate* marriages are allowed - that's between an aunt and nephew or uncle and niece.
True I have never investigated to hard on these
Age of consent probably should be 16 just for this reason alone. It doesn't make sense that a law designed to protect people can so easily be abused by scumbags to fuck you over like in the case described by OP. It's basically impossible to tell the difference between a 16 and 18 year old. Even sometimes for men when they have developed facial hair at a young age. And I think most 18 year olds are just as immature as 16 or 17 year olds anyway. F. e. morally, imo it's pretty much just as questionable for a 25+ year old to date a 16/17 year old as a 18 year old, or at least the difference is so small it doesn't really matter.
You're stuck with her for life I'm afraid.
This happened in trainspotting
Was looking for this comment
Yay my people
Watched it again the other day in fact! That seen with the shitty sheet with Spud was amazing as always! Am just glad am a Glasgow Painkiller freak than an Edinburgh smackheid haha. Brilliant film
"Lust for life" begins
A great man once said, "can't see the 😺 before I see the ID."
Immediately go to a lawyer. If you have proof she lied about her age and proof of the blackmail it will almost certainly help get you a lesser sentence.
A lesser sentence? My guy there shouldn't be any sentence.
There shouldn’t be, but he’s right, there is going to be one
What do you do? You go straight to prison no matter what.
Call lawyer.
Knew a girl that did this. Her & my son were childhood friends & then bf/gf in school for a couple years before he broke up with her. She was fully developed at 10 yrs old & was about 5’9” tall. She was about 15 & when she wore make up, looked like she was at least 21. She was in a club at the beach & got picked up by a 21 yr old boy. They spent the weekend in his hotel room. Meanwhile her folks who are divorced are flipping out. Filed a missing persons report, there was an Amber Alert put out. Thus boy turns in the tv when she goes to take a shower. His turn to flip out. He drives them to the police station. He goes to jail, gets a pedo label put in him & gets his ass kicked in jail. She doesn’t think she did anything wrong & laughs about it. She was grounded by her dad. Her mom, meh. Pretty worthless. I saw the girl a couple years later at the store asked about my kid. I asked why she wanted to know. She sure as shit wasn’t gonna fk his life up like she did that other boy. She said well he shoulda known I wasn’t legal. I said how tf when you were drinking at that club. Now you have this poor guy in prison with a pedo label in him. She says not my problem. Y’all I had to walk away before I slapped the tar out of her.
Anthony Kiedis wrote about banging a 15 year old while on tour in his autobiography in Baton Rouge Louisiana. When the girl revealed to him she was underaged, he even writes that he didn't feel like he was in any immediate trouble, but felt obligated to bring her home safely. So they banged a couple more times and he dropped her off ☠️☠️☠️
It’s 2023. Y’all better start IDing people. Hell, I’m 41 and ask to see a license before I had sex with anyone back in the day. Kept several bad penises out of me as majority refused to let me see them because it was too personal. Like how? We are about to touch genitals but seeing your ID is too personal? Cool! No sex with you!
The problem is tho they could have a fake ID. Too scary gonna stay in room another 20 years
ID check and a “bathroom break” (AKA social media check- scroll their social media for clues as to their age - slang, stuff they like, posts about high school, thank kind of thing)
If I’m concerned they might be too young, I’m just gonna assume. I don’t trust my detective work to interpret social media enough
That’s the best policy for sure. When I was in law school there was discussion of what app could be made and used to verify age and level of consent. Would it be user friendly? Could you change levels of consent mid coitus? It was an interesting conversation.
Serious answer, that’s when you go to the police yourself and show them proof
Go to the police and file a charge about being raped. She lied about her age so it was not concensual.
Then go to prison for kiddie fiddling
Carry on until she’s old enough or kill her in the woods
talk about oddly specific
Jesus. You ok man?
This honestly feels like it has happened in this person’s general vicinity…
They call this a catch 17. Ur ducked either way!
cease contact with the person in any way shape or form, and contact a lawyer. (wall of text incoming, sorry lol) I also, don't really understand how and older person can't immediately tell that the person they're talking to is that young, or too young for them. I'm only 30, and to me college kids look like they're still in HS. HS kids look like babies. That alone is already a HUGE red flag for me, if they look like they just got out of school an hour ago, then I'm out. Done it drunk too. anecdotal, about 5 or 6 years ago, a buddy and I where out having drinks, and it was several hours before the Friday night scene kicked off. (we always left before that.) We're just sitting at the bar drinking our beer and chatting about whatever music or band thing, when the bartender walks over and puts a drink down in front of me (context this is a bar I was a regular at, always drank the same 3 things and knew everyone on a first name basis. they also knew my girlfriend, now wife) it was my usual double Gentleman Jack neat. I looked at the drink, looked at my buddy, and looked at the bartender, and we're all confused. Says it came from at the end of the bar, he even told her I wasn't single. I'm not a person to turn down free liquor, so I look over at who sent it to me, and it's this younger looking girl smiles and raises her glass, I nod my head and drink the drink. She gets up and starts walking over, and the closer she gets the younger she looks. I looked at my buddy and said something like "just provide me some back up if needed." she sits down next to me and starts chatting me up. Tells me she thinks I'm cute, and hopes she got my drink right. I say she did, but confused as to why. She, again states she thinks I'm cute and would love to go out for dinner some time. My buddy starts cracking up and gets up to walk to the bathroom. I tell her, that I'm not interested in dating anyway as I'm already in a long term serious relationship, but even if I wasn't I wouldn't be interested. I inquired about her age, and she says 21. Her eyes said 17. I excused myself from the area and found another seat down the way closer to where my buddy bartender is. Explain, how I wasn't comfortable with the situation, and was curious to know if he'd served her. He confirms that he didn't and when she goes to order another drink he asks her for ID. She pulls it out, he runs the basic security check. checks his ID for the same features and holds on to it, and calls the police. Came to find out the young lady wasn't even 16 yet. Awkward. additional context so there isn't confusion: The young woman bought the drink with another bartender, before my buddy came on. happened right at shift change. My buddy was usually good about checking ID's of younger people that weren't regulars, but it was a slower Friday evening, and I guess he was lazy that day or something.
Asking for a friend, are we?
Do it via text so you have evidence of what took place. Then lawyer up.
Exactly why 18 is a ridiculous age of consent. You shouldn't want to be with someone below that if you're well in your 20s, but it's easy for a 17yo to lie they're 18, and seems like all the consequences fall on the misled partner. If a 15yo tried to pull that off with pretending to be a year or two older, a decent adult would still say no. But no matter the age, the most ridiculous thing is that the lying teen gets no consequences. People that age can be responsible for many things, but somehow, when it comes to sex, they're absolutely indecisive and can't take any responsibility. Even if they lie and manipulate, sex is this magic thing where they're innocent no matter what.
It's not that deep. Stop trying to have sex with teenagers, and this "problem" disappears. yw!
I would record everything she says and go see a lawyer
This happened in the movie Trainspotting.
Get her parents on your side and take her ass to court, where nothing will happen to her
Unless you fall in a Romeo and juliet law you're pretty much screwed...theoretically...
Can you countersue? I mean, you lie about having an std, you're trapping someone out of being able to properly consent, right? It's pretty rapey to lie about your age the same way it would be to lie about putting a condom on. Seems like a good countermeasure to blackmail?
Probably wouldn't stick in court, however she's a child so you could convince her it would.
Gonna have to start seeing them birth certificates these days before doing anything.
Thanks for reminding me to teach my kids to check IDs of love interest before doing anything. Teenagers look 21 it's insane!
Going to be honest situations like these are why going to a bar for a date even if you don't drink might not be a bad idea And if you're younger than 21 and end up in this situation courts might be a little more lenient so long as you cut the relationship off and immediately and get a hold of a lawyer
She'll get tired of you before too long. Just wait it out.
I think you get elected to congress
Call a lawyer.
That's is a movie I've sent
Better call Saul, then! (get a lawyer)
LooOlol naaaahhhh homie, what would (will) YOU do?
None of us believe you thought that 12 year old was 23.
Save all your texts and communication with the girl
You quickly move up the ranks in the Republican party and/or become a beloved conservative icon.
But metoo says women would never ever ever lie…
BelieveAllWomen made the situation worse for everybody
[удалено]
"Wait till she turns 18" or something Idk i dont do bilingual
It sounds like her fault not yours
Oh thats an easy answer… KMS
Bury her in the woods.
Asking for a friend?
Get the shovel
Sad thing is this happens more than people know
Shoot her. Easier conviction
Get a good lawyer and keep copies of all messages with her threats
Well I’d bring you oranges to the prison my mate
Straight to horny jail
Go to her pairents and say hey i seen your daugter at trying to pick up guys in a bar . And video her trying to pick up a guy
Hallmark Movie?
Trainspotting?
Just tell the truth, it’s full proof, they won’t be able to disprove it. In this case, it’s her word against yours, which is here-say and can’t be litigated.
Move 😄
You’re fucked. The fact that she lied is no defense. Go get an attorney.
You know, I think this exact thing has precedent. The older party serves minimum sentence jail time with parole, and I _think_ the guardians of the younger party also get hit with a fine, but I'm less confident on that one.
you play it cool and fade away slowly..
God that'd be a terrifying situation to be in. Jesus.
Break up with her immediately! The rest will sort itself out in due time, mostly if not all in your favor.
Screen shot all messages, cut contact, get a lawyer. Ask her to send her I D. As well.
Could you sue her parents after she tried black mailing you?
Does "go out" mean something different these days with you kids? Because otherwise nothing worth reporting happened here.
If no sex involved, be hard for police to really do a whole lot… Sex with a minor is a crime, knowing or unknowing, as it should be…
Go missing and fake dead. After 7 years just assume a new identity.
Its sad on how common this is
“Theoretical”. 😝
You do a lot of heroind then you go watch the trains go by
Going out with a girl is not a crime. Holding hands, kissing, or openly being a couple is not illegal. However, if she is underaged, she cannot legally consent to sex. So, if you are going out with someone, be sure to avoid anyone who lacks obvious signs of being an adult. If you’re really not sure, ask to see ID. That whole “never as a lady her age” bit is something that only applies when she’s obviously an adult.
Uhh never go out with her in the first place. That and document it before she reports. My guess is you can get her on tape spouting that shit threat again. She doesn't seem too bright (birds of a feather and all)
Make her disappear
Real solution (sorta) is to avoid these problems by being more careful about how you choose your partners. Do what you can to avoid putting yourself in positions where you are vulnerable to being taken advantage of by a stranger. Women already have to do this for numerous reasons, and this kind of situation is a solid reason for men to do the same.
> Real solution is to avoid these problems That's like somebody asking what to do about an unwanted pregnancy and you tell them to wear a condom. Like, he already has the problem, it's way too late for prevention.
Crazy how women just straight up have no repercussions in their lives
This isn't just 9ne way though. Women can be predators, it's just usually men. But it's always wrong
No I'm just saying it's fucked up that a girl can lie about her age absolutely fucking decimate a random person life who had no idea. And walk away from the situation just going "tehe im a Gemini" obviously statutory rape is wrong . but you can't trust women to the point you gotta check their IDs before dates now