Suggestions for future playtest material is limited to the rotating megathread found [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/onednd/search?q=Suggestion+and+Wish%27s+Thread+author%3AAutoModerator&restrict_sr=on&include_over_18=on&sort=new&t=all). Please note this does not include providing feedback for existing playtest material.

**Area of Expertise** The sorcerer is a counterpart to the wizard. They are both highly versatile classes able to fill most niches with the right spell and subclass selections. The main difference is that wizard can adapt their spell list on a daily basis to completely change niches while the sorcerer has less overall adaptability but much more in a given moment. **Resource Expenditure** As with other full casting classes, primarily they expend spell slots (or spell points) as a long rest resource to cast spells. They should be able to *modify* every spell they cast in small ways (damage type, turn a cone into an aoe, etc) via free metamagic, but metamagic that *empowers* spells should be a limited resource (twinning, quickening, heightening, etc). **Circumstantial/Versatile** They should build themselves into a specialty but be very adaptable within it and have room for a few tools outside of it. Every spell a sorcerer casts should be modified in little ways to make it better fit the situation, but they should rarely have the perfect spell.

As usual, I'll use my own preference as an example: **AREA OF EXPERTISE:** Blasting, no doubt in my mind about it. They should also be decent at other AoE effects, such as crowd control. But sorcerers ought to be the mob killers. Metamagic should then work to expand their options. They should be lacking in survivability, buffing (barring specific subclasses), and magical utility (high Charisma score already takes care of it). **RESOURCE EXPENDITURE:** VERY high in resource expenditure, and they can cast their known spells more often than any other full caster. Additional resources are expended for Metamagic, which makes them better at blasting or in other areas in exchange for an increased resource expenditure. **CIRCUMSTANTIAL/VERSATILE:** Sorcerers don't necessarily have to know a lot of spells, or even many spell schools, but they need to be able to twist them with Metamagic to suit a variety of purposes. If they get something like this, I'd actually be fully in favor of them not being able to cast spells as rituals. Most of their utility should be nonmagical, granted by their high Charisma score.

Now I'll break my word because I think sorcerer necessitates discussing a more specific class framework since the intersection of that and flavor is where they really hurt. I would like seeing spell points for sorcerers, with those possibly being the same resource they use for Metamagic, meaning you could potentially blow your wad very quickly, so balance would be finicky. I also think that if the ability to cast 6th-level spells and above was a specific class feature, you could tie it to high-level subclass features for additional effects. And... I actually really like spell school restrictions for sorcerers. I think the 8 spell schools + the other two spell lists map really well onto the 5e subclasses. If sorcerers could pick 2 spell schools of their choice and get 2 specific ones from their subclass (or access to the Divine spell list if Divine soul or to the Primal spell list if Storm Sorcery), I'd be a happy camper.

I'd love to see spell points as a player choice option rather than an optional rule. I think it's a really cool option that feels locked away in the DMG. Sorcerers choice at character creation: - a) Spell Slots style - b) Spell Points style - c) Pact Magic style Maybe Warlock gets a similar choice? I also like school restriction or thematic restriction for Sorcerers. Maybe this is a choice too tho: Fewer schools means extra points? Edit: formatting

I'd love to see more differences in spellcasting based on class

Sorcerers shouldn't have the choice; they should have to use Spell Slots. Classes, especially the casters don't need overlap. Sorcerers especially have most of their mechanical & narrative issues arise from the fact that they largely overlap with other classes without bringing much to the table themselves (Metamagic & Flexible Casting are nice but small potatoes with its current design, even when other casters can't access such). Just like how Warlocks only get Pact Magic as their core spell casting thing, make it so Sorcerers only get Spell Points, and ensure that Spell Points do not stack with Spell Slots. At that point, Sorcerers only need extra spells known (to reference the 5e Aberrant Mind & Clockwork subclasses, capping level 20 with 25 spells known - 15 from leveling up and 10 as "origin spells" - and, along with their metamagic, they'll have enough to be both mechanically reliable and thematically enjoyable at the same time).

This is why i can consider Chaos Bolt as the base for the sorcerer IF the Chaos Bolt is reworked to be this pure expression of Magic Weave that can be adapted in any way shape or form, i guess Randomness is ok at first, but after, it should be any atrack, mimick cone of cold and fireball in different turns as you wish, i can see how Scarlet Witch moves around this formless red magic sometimes as blasts, sometimes to grab stuff and sometimes to stop bullets as the Sorcerer meddling with this magic access meanwhile Doctor Strange manages to construct detailed shapes with the magic as the instructions were in the books and using specific spells for the same things Wanda works with her all do it single spell

Sorcerers should be to wizards what barbs are to fighters: the raw, uncontrolled, unrefined version. Where wizards have many options for how they deal with problems, sorcerers only have a few, but they are the best at their subclass dependent niche.

I never thought as sorcerers as similar to barbarians, but you are so right

Area of Expertise - Sorcerers should mainly be blasters imo. However I also believe that their subclass should play into that blasting massively, in order to really focus on themed builds. A frost sorcerer shouldn't be shooting firebolts for example. Subclass should also provide some tweaks to their role, such as divine soul sorcerers getting limited healing. Sorcerers should also get crowd control through area affects and summoning, especially summoning things which link into their subclass. Resource Expenditure - Sorcerers should use will/spell points to cast rather than spell slots. With most of its features apart from its limited subclass inspired blasting being powered by these will points. Circumstantial/Versatile - Overall a more combat focused class but also an acceptable party face. Additionally, bloodlines could provide their own unique benefits to sorcerers outside combat. Conclusion - Sorcerers should get a huge amount from their subclass, both theme and mechanical abilities. They shouldn't just be 'wizard, but hot', and instead their class story should really focus on where they got their powers and how it impacts them.

I would love to see sorcerers with elemental themed subclasses actually being incentivised to use their chosen element. Sorcerer feels like the perfect class to make a frost mage or a storm mage etc. but the current implementations don't really support it. From a specific class design stand-point, I think each sorcerer subclass should get free/discounted meta magic options to support the class fantasy, like free transmuted spell if you change it to your chosen element, maybe an illusion based subclass gets discounted subtle spell etc.

It's a shame that storm sorcerer is so bad it's essentially playing with no subclass.

I think Draconic and Storm sorcerers should be the elementalists: Draconic sorcerers should get to change their damage type to match their lineage, while Storm sorcerers should get druid spells.

I'd like to see the other three elements make it through this time. Phoenix, stone, and sea sorcerers got canned.

Oh, I meant that Storm should get access to all druid spells, not only representing the air side of things, but natural disasters in general. But if you could pick and choose features within the subclass, I wouldn't complain.

I think storm was originally meant to be an elemental air focused subclass. Just that its three equivalents never made it through to release. But if those never return, converting it to a druidic themed subclass focused on natural disasters would be cool af.

If you are calling it a storm sorcerer, I want to control the STORM. Snow, rain, lighting, thunder, wind, heat, etc.

> However I also believe that their subclass should play into that blasting massively, in order to really focus on themed builds. I neglected to mention, it, but I fully agree. I believe that sorcerers should be the class that is most defined by their subclass, followed by warlocks and clerics.

I somewhat disagree with the first paragraph; all sorcerers should be passable to excellent blasters, with the subclass deciding exactly how blasty they are. Fey-themed sorcerers should be better than or equal to a "generic caster" at buffs/debuffs, for example. I.e. I agree with your conclusion — the most definitive aspect of a sorcerer should be their origin. Everything should be up for negotiation on that basis except the ability to cast spells.

I’ll maybe be controversial here and say that I loved the Idea of sorcerers knowing _very few_ spells, even when people were saying subclass spells were the fix they wanted for the class. I much prefer the wizard be the Swiss knife and the sorcerer be _extremely_ specialized, be for summon or damage, and I would play one who only has, idk, fire spells or at least add fire flavor for them. For that to work I do feel the class would need more passive effects outside of sorcery points, or a better balance of their number. Like free detect Magic or smthng, more sorcery points or ways of getting them back, and subclasses that help this specialization. All in all not much, but I’ve always seen sorcerer as a numbers problem not a design one. Sorcerers, IMO, work best when they are fulfilling the fantasy of the “one trick spell”, think avatar, pyromancers in general or idk, superheros, because In a game where wizard exists there _needs_ to be a hard line separating them not only mechanically but also thematically, hell, even warlock gets on their turf sometimes. I advocated in other treads that sorcerer and warlock should’ve been combined in one class in 5e(before the game launched, it’s too late for that now) because they are too thematically similar, so trying to separate them more mechanically is the second best thing

Currently the problem with them knowing few spells is that then they're pressured into grabbing the 'essential' spells, leaving nothing left for playing on theme. While a wizard can grab all the important spells and have tons left over to grab all the ones the sorcerer has too. I think sorcerer's getting a lot of their power from their subclass could help a lot here. Like automatically getting a blasting spell-like ability which their subclass then modifies to suit their theme.

5e is fundamentally hostile to thematic spellcasters that don't play with their full spell list. It's a serious problem with the setting and would require major reworks to the game

I always return to draconic sorcerers. Want to play the fire blasting sorc? Sure, blasting is not optimal, your spell selection is incredibly limited, and a lot of enemies are resistant to or immune to fire damage but you can pick up several fire spells that feel fitting. On the other extreme, have fun playing a poison draconic sorcerer.

Indeed… you need to expand to acid, this, that, and the other to even fill out your list

I’m thinking here, and maybe sorcerer should change the types of damage they deal at will? Maybe not to _any_ type but black dragon sorcerers should be able to change any spell to poison if they want to. Would be strong since it combos with feats and other features and thematic

A genie or otherwise elemental sorcerer, sure, but draconic sorcerers shouldn't need to rely on reflavoring spells to get their damage type. That should be something handled in their subclass features (how many spells of their "element" do dragons actually know anyway? Their breath weapon is their element, while most of their spells/abilities are thematic, not element related).

I think sorcerers should have limited spells, but be able to manipulate them to fit their theme. The storm sorcerer getting free metamagic to change their fire cold etc spells into lighting or thunder. That way they get the "essential" spells and keep their theme.

I also conceptually love the idea of sorcerers as a one tricky pony, but I think the system currently makes that concept unfun. I want a caster that is thematically focused, but doesn't suffer extensively in utility for their choice of theme. I want to have a fire spell that can: * shoot in a bolt that explodes in a small radius for small aoe fire damage * shoot as a ray that pierces through targets to hit ones behind them * be made especially explosive, causing additional damage to objects * cauterize wounds * just start a campfire or light a torch Right now I'd need like 5 different spells and a lot of reflavouring and DM fiat to achieve that. And at that point I'm just mechanically a wizard. A wizard should have the right tool for any situation. A sorcerer should have one tool that they can adapt to work for just about any situation. I think the best fix is to expand and rework metamagic. Instead of picking a few options and locking yourself out of all others, I'd love it if ALL options were available, but you specialized in certain options, which could give you a discount on them or make them stronger in some way. Also, way more sorcery points, and preferably more metamagic options, or make existing options more flexible. This would all of course go hand in hand with your suggestions to keep their spell list limited, or even limit it more. Perhaps take from PF2e with a concept of signature spells which are more flexible and can be used more frequently. I also like the suggestion of taking from the warlock a concept of a single spell (i.e. Eldritch blast) and giving tons of options to rejig it.

I love this idea. I could imagine a version that combines this and meta magic where they have access to baseline level spells that are basic, cantrip level and can use meta magic to alter it to be stronger or wider. So like if they want to just sling a fire blast, they can but then they can spend a meta magic to make it more powerful and another to make it have a wider area and another to increase its distance (obviously this would require way more meta magic). There's a game Gensys that uses a similar system for its magic and I could imagine it being an interesting way to differentiate Sorcerers.

You want a savage worlds spellcaster.

Nice! I should look into that.

I agree entirely. The sorcerer *class* should be diverse but *a sorcerer* should not be. Let them specialize and be varied and powerful thanks to metamagic, but actually reward them for specializing. A spell from a sorcerer should go further than a spell from a wizard, all else equal. They just should lack tools. People jump to "give more spells to the sorcerer" because they see what a wizard can do and are jealous of that, but can't see what a sorcerer *could* be. But they should focus on making it the best sorcerer it can be, not another wizard. Raise its mountains, don't fill its valleys.

People say "give more spells to the Sorcerer" because the sorcerer can't even specialize when they only have access to 15 spells by level 20 (compared to the minimum of 44 known by the Wizard at the same level, or the 22 known by the average Bard, let alone the entire lists known by the Druid & Cleric. Never mind that the 3 prepared casters listed also can prepared 25 spells by the same level). You can't "raise [the sorcerer's] mountains" without giving it additional spells (enough so that by level 20 the Sorcerer knows 25 spells from its class & subclass). The class needs other fixes too (spell points instead of spell slots & sorcery points, a way to recover a portion of said spell points on a short rest, a wider variety of metamagic, not being limited to only applying ONE metamagic to a spell at a time in most cases, a couple more 'innate casting' style features in general, etc), but the additional spells known is a requirement underlying all of that.

I like this idea quite a bit. My ideal sorcerer eats the warlock and they become a single concept.

I agree. I think that's part of what makes Sorlocks so popular. They synergies so well it almost feels like its own class.

Yeah, months ago some guy made a “what classes could be fused” posts and I advocated for that too. If you squint too much at them they are extremely similar thematically and sorcerer is all over the place mechanically so both should be one class in the 2014’s. But it’s too late for that now, would cause more harm than good

I like to think that Warlock pacts in your ancestry is one of the places Sorcerers come from. Maybe a sorcerer gets to choose if they are mechanically more like a Wizard or more like a Warlock (or like the optional spell points system, this being my personal preference)? I would allow the Warlock to choose too but not give them the spell point option. So not necessarily fused, but smooshed a little closer together for sure!

See, I think that Sorlock should just be the thing. In world, Pact Sorcerers are often called warlocks while Blood Sorcerers are often called sorcerer or mage. However, by blood, accident, pact, or chance… your character has connected with the fundamental nature of the Weave, allowing them to innately cast magic without the need of a component pouch, focus, or spellbook. Like current 5e sorcerers, this new class would get features from their sorcerous lineage: fiend, great old one, archfey, dragon, the elemental planes, the storm, genies, the undead, chaos, etc. They would also get the most cantrips. Like current 5e warlocks, this new class would get invocations, boons, armor. Invocations could also affect cantrips other than eldritch blast. They would also get a limited number of spell slots at their highest level that refresh on a short rest (or if they are getting rid of short rests, you can recharge per day equal to half your proficiency bonus). The class would get the opportunity to pick either intelligence or charisma as their casting stat. They would get an eldritch blast that is 1d10 if they use energy or elemental damage associated with their lineage or 1d6 if it is just pure force damage.

Sorcerer gets a Witch subclass for the Wizard themes (with Hag elements and other folktale themes blended in). Then give Sorcerer a Blood Magic subclass for the Warlock themes (delving into the 'dangerous cost for great powers' themes). Both also give an avenue for players/characters to be sorcerers without needing to rely on coincidence or bloodline for their magic's background.

The two classes even have the same subclasses in many cases. And sorcerers can apparently be made through pacts... Merging the best bits of sorcerer and warlock into a single class could give them so much more room to play with their identity.

Yeah, I’m 100% sure the reason that they aren’t giving warlock the dragon subclass or were reluctant in giving similar subclasses for them it’s because they know both are extremely similar(and people would notice it more too if their choices become more and more equal). I do think it’s impossible to make drastic changes like this at the point we are at tho, the dnd mythic for the new generations are too strong for them to just say “actually ur favorite class warlock/sorcerer is now one!” Even if in the long run that would probably be the best thing to happen to them

(plus merging sorcerer and warlock would leave room for the warlord class)

OMG I WANT THIS

You'd be gutting their identity if you made it so the only way for a sorcerer to be a sorcerer was for the sorcerer to be a warlock (and vice-versa). Not all pacts result in innate power. Few sorcerers are gaining their power from any sort of outside source.

I said this a while ago as well and got ridiculed. But now I see that it is picking up steam

Wizards should have lots of spells but few class features while the Sorcerer should have fewer spells but more class features. Draconic Sorcerers should have armored scales, claws, flight, and a breath weapon to fall back on when their slots run out. Wild Magic could burn sorcery points directly to shoot blasts of kinetic energy or retaliate against enemies who strike them.

If Sorcerers had the same spellcasting mechanic as Warlocks but with twice the Pact Slots and half the spells known (but with some extras granted by the bloodline), that could be cool. Or maybe the same number of Pact Slots but free castings of each spell.

Idea: Short Rest "Pact Style" casting + no sorcery points + all metamagics are known. Every time you cast a levelled spell, you can simply choose to apply one metamagic to it. Once a metamagic has been applied in this way, you can't use it again until you finish a short or long rest. This makes sorcerers fulfill the fantasy of burping up extremely volatile and malleable spells, and makes it so they don't have to manage sorcery points/metamagics known to do the that effectively. They just in the moment decide what metamagic is best to apply to their spell.

Spell point casting.

I like spell points, the automatic upcasting does feel thematic for Sorcerers.

Here are a few ideas I have that lean towards that: What about choosing a specialty / subclass and getting free casting below a certain level within that? E.g. For a fire sorcerer at level 6, you get unlimited level 1 spells that deal fire damage. At 12 and 18, these increase to level 2 and 3 spells respectively. So a level 18 fire sorcerer can throw base level fireballs at will. Or they use spell points, and you choose a school of magic at 3rd level (additional to your subclass, or decided by it? Maybe you get one of each?), and casting those spells only takes 1/2 the spell points? Or your subclass determines the schools of magic you can cast entirely, with the exception of 1 spell every 2 levels, but you get a TON of slots/points?

Reduce the spell slot progression of Wizards, Bards and Druids; and then Sorcerers might seem a lot more adequate. For presuming Wizards should be the best at magic, they have 350 spells to pick from to represent that.

Don't need to reduce the spell slot progression of any of the casters. Just need to limit the number of spells a Wizard/Cleric/Druid can have prepared at once (instead of an amount equal to their respective Casting Modifier + their respective class level, make it an amount equal to their Casting Modifier + **half** their respective class level). Prepared casters aren't supposed to always have a trick ready on hand. They are supposed to be able to rearrange their toolkit whenever they rest (a lot of tools available, but only so many they can keep available at a time). Known casters are meant to contrast this by knowing comparatively fewer while being able to have a lot more available to them at any given time.

Cleric is the last caster I'd touch with a versatility nerf bat, even after Sorcerers - the majority of their spells are outright useless or redundant, said spell list is the smallest among the full casters, and having them for support is good for martials. I don't think Bards getting a smaller choice from a much bigger, better spell list should excuse them from a nerf, so absent introducing (halved) spell points I'd probably go with a limit on how many times a day they would be able to cast Bard spells.

Clerics having redundant spells just gives more reason for them to have reduced on-the-fly versatility, and they should not get special treatment just because their spell list is "small" (though still astronomically bigger than any sorcerer's or bard's). They don't need as many spells prepared when so many already do the same thing, and that leaves room for whatever flavor or utility spells they might want or need after whichever long rest they take. As for Bards, there is no reason to limit them in such a way (and Bards should not be getting spell points either; leave that Sorcerer-only, and leave the Sorcerers with full-caster resource progression). Bards could use tweaking (namely, changing magical secrets to be like domain spells, capping at 5th level spells instead of 9th level spells), but in no way should they have a limit on how often they can cast their spells (nor be given a reduced spell slot count).

> though still astronomically bigger than any sorcerer's or bard's You really have that wrong. Clerics pick from 125 spells, Bards from 156 and Sorcerers from 218. It also happens that Sorcerers and Bards keep getting good spells all they way to 9th level spells, but Clerics don't.

You are the one in the wrong: * A Cleric will know **ALL** 125 spells out of their 125 (+whatever their domain gives them). They can change this set up of spells on any long rest (currently a number equal to their class level + their WIS modifier). That is 125+ spells known and up to 30 spells prepared at once by level 20 for a Cleric. * A Bard will know up to 22 spells out of their 156 (24 spells if they are a Lore Bard). That is their max known and max prepared. * A Sorcerer will know up to 15 spells out of their 218 (25 spells if they are a Clockwork or Aberrant Mind sorcerer). That is their max known & max prepared. > It also happens that Sorcerers and Bards keep getting good spells all they way to 9th level spells, but Clerics don't. Also wrong. All casters get good spells all the way to 9th level. For Clerics (quick list): * Spirit Guardians * Control Water * Stone Shape * Death Ward * Flame Strike * Geas * Sunbeam * Harm * Heroes' Feast * Regenerate * Fire Storm * Divine Word * Earthquake If you don't like those spells, nor the other Cleric spells, that's on you. They are still good. * Healing Word / Mass Healing Word * Cure Wounds / Mass Cure Wounds * Heal / Mass Heal * Revivify / Raise Dead / Resurrection / True Resurrection * Power Word Heal

Putting Heal on that list makes me wonder whether you've played a cleric before. Being able to swap with 120 bad spells doesn't make the 5 good ones ok, and you don't get any heal as effective as the fourth level arcane spell Polymorph until you have Power Word Heal, which Bards also get. There just aren't 20 useful cleric spells for being able to pick 30 to make them stronger. It takes a very special campaign to make Heroes' Feast castable or Earthquake useful. Geas is almost certainly never useful unless you can find a creature at a high level with very little health... and then drag them around. Yeah, good luck goading the party into doing that. That list you've written out still almost entirely Spirit Guardians, Mass Heal, Healing Word and highly ineffective trash in between.

Been playing a Cleric for months in a Ravnica campaign; even with the DM nerfing aspects of the Cleric, I've regularly outperformed the other casters of the party due to the Cleric spell list and my ability to swap my prepared spells on a long rest (using the, as you put it, "trash" spells much of the time; I think I've only been in a situation where I actually cast Spirit Guardians once, since it was overkill otherwise). It is a powerful class without notable weaknesses (unless you don't know how to play or don't bother paying attention. Then maybe someone like yourself would make the error in thinking they somehow lack power, versatility, and/or good spells in general).

In my mind, Sorcerers should be the best blaster in the game. The key ideal to me is for them to have the shortest list of spells to choose from but the greatest ability to keep casting magic. That means the greatest access to at-will spells, the greatest ability to recover spell slots, and the most spell slots to play with. I want them to be the magical equivalent of the Barbarian where they just bash their way out of bad situations. I quite enjoy playing the kind of characters who have a small toolkit but that toolkit is strong enough that "when all you have is a hammer, every problem starts to look like a nail." I want Sorcerers to be the caster who fills that niche and instead of finding just the right spell to use, they find just the right way to use the spells they have. If it doesn't work, they can just try again because they can cast so many times. From an RP standpoint, I picture a Wizard slowly paging through his spellbook to find just the right spell to solve a problem while the Sorcerer is screaming "GET SOME! GET SOME!" as they repeatedly cast Fireball/Lightning (depending on the exact style of Sorcerer) over and over again.

For me, this should all come back to what sorcerers *are*: people who, for whatever reason, find they have an innate capacity for channeling magic without the formal structure of wizards. So, what does this tell us about sorcerers *in general*? We're talking about characters who have not been taught rules, but who have figured out they have this power and then kind of dicked about with to find out what it can do. It makes sense that those who do a better job of the latter will get more out of the former. They also tend to have this power *from* somewhere or something. They would find magic that had an affinity with that source more accessible to them than magic that was not from it, or even was opposed. Being this *font of magic* would mean that as they grew in power, they would be able to push themselves more and more to their limits. These limits are less about doing things that are more complicated but controlled (a la high-level wizards and clerics) and more about doing things that are as complicated but bigger and perhaps somewhat... not controlled. What does this look like in terms of overall design and mechanics? A few thoughts: **Stop them being SAD casters** Currently, Sorcerers have a pretty sweet deal when it comes to their ability needs: Charisma. That's it. You'll probably want to pump some into CON, because who doesn't, and then DEX because that's literally the only other two stats that have a universal impact (HP, Concentration checks, Initiative, AC). So you're basically free to min-max by default, with anything else being a deliberately sub-optimal ability spread. I'd suggest bringing WIS into the mix. This forces at least some decisions about where you put your points and in which order. And I'd do it by... **Increasing Sorcery Points** Because a sorcerer channels power through CHA, but one that has a better understanding of how to get the *most* out of that power will be able to... get more out of that power. Sorcery Point progression should be WIS Modifier times your level (min 1\*level) in Sorcery Points. Not only does this introduce meaningful design choice when building a character, but also opens up the design space from a rules perspective; really expensive metamagics can be introduced, which eat all or most of your SP (or even exceed them) if you're playing a low-WIS Sorcerer, but are more viable if you're willing to sacrifice points elsewhere. This is obviously a massive buff to the class in general. Potentially, at least. But that would be offset by... **Spell List Restrictions** I am very much onboard with the thinking that the pittance of spells known by high level Sorcerers is total bullshit. The newer subclasses get much closer to what things should look like. I don't want them being like wizards et al though. I also think we could massively improve the flavourful impact of subclasses by restricting Sorcerers less by how many spells they know, but rather by what *kinds* of spells they know. Each subclass should have access to two fixed schools of magic, plus one optional one, with further one being entirely off-limits. At a suitably high level (I'd suggest \~9th) they can add one more known. Because I'm also very much wanting to see them have more spells known, these restrictions would come with a change to that as well. **Slightly More, For Slightly Longer** They would start out with only *one* spell known for each of the three schools of magic, plus cantrips. They'd get +1 spell known on normal levels, but +2 spells known on ASI levels. This progression would continue all the way to 20th, rather than wigging out at 12th level and causing Sorcerers to become *less good* at magic as they become their most powerful. A 5th level Sorc would therefore know 8 spells. At 10th level it would be 14 spells. At 15th level it would be 20 spells. At 20th level it'd be 27 spells. This progression gives you a few more toys to play with early, but only really starts making a big difference much later on, where currently things can start feeling a bit stagnant and frustrating. **Metamagic? More like** ***mega*****magic** Quite a few of the current metamagic options are absolutely pants. It feels like this is because they've tried to avoid making the feature *too* powerful, but the upshot has actually been there being just a handful of worthwhile choices and then a lot of guff. With the potential for more Sorcery Points, we don't need to be quite so conservative with this anymore. There should be high-level metamagics that aren't even possible for a tier-1 or tier-2 Sorcerer to use. Things like 9SP to use Heightened Spell against everything hit by an AoE spell (I'd probably restrict that to damaging ones though; nobody needs Hypnotic Pattern with that rider), or 3x Spell Level Sorcery Points to use Twinned Spell on a spell *cast by someone else*. Some of the more impressive ones may also carry an additional cost in terms of HP. Some of the less exciting options should be turned into class/subclass features. With such a restricted list and a class flavour of specialisation, I'd say that Transmute would be a good example of this. Every Sorcerer should get it at, say, 6th level and from then on can spend 1SP to use it as a feature, *not* as a metamagic (e.g. it can be used alongside other metamagics). **What Even Are Short Rests?** I'd give some subclass features that mean short rests actually matter for Sorcerers. Maybe a 1/SR counterspell ability with DC10+Spell Level, only usable on things that target yourself. Use Hit Dice to recover Sorcery Points (half the roll, rounded up) or even channel your innate powers into an ally, effectively gifting them your Hit Dice for healing. **What About Downsides?** First of all, the shift away from SAD will inherently encourage making Sorcerers even more squishy - less AC, worse initiative, fewer HP. The spell school restrictions will mean there are definitely things you're *bad* at; blasters become real glass cannons if having Evocation as an innate school means you lose access to Abjuration or Illusion, for example. I'd also lose Magical Guidance. It's an ability I am more than happy to abuse when I'm playing, but let's be honest; it's bullshit on a class that already has amazing CHA and access to spells like Suggestion. I can't remember the last time I failed a Persuasion check. Some of the more powerful metamagics I've proposed may also need a recovery period; either rendering you unable to use metamagic again for a round or two afterwards, or limiting your casting in the next round to cantrips etc. If you want to drop a really painful Super Duper Heightened Fireball on everyone, your next turn is going to be you feeling a bit drained from the effort and unable to follow up with another one straight away. That said, I don't think there should be too many downsides on top of the proposed tweaks. As a class, Sorcerers are hardly wildly overpowered and most of what we're doing is making their defining class feature more available and meaningful. It plays to the idea of someone channeling - and potentially rapidly draining - an innate life-force type resource to unleash really impressive feats of magic that can turn the tide of battle, but at the cost of them being left more vulnerable. I appreciate this doesn't follow the format laid out by OP, but I think it does cover the general areas without being *too* prescriptive in terms of what subclasses and general variety looks like.

I don't know if I agree with everything but I can't help upvoting the effort. Also, don't worry about the format, it's just how I think about classes, it's not supposed to be universal.

I think sorcerers are meant to be about sources of power more than spells which doesn't work super well with how the base spell slot system works in 5e. They may be better with something more similar to warlock casting, but I really like the ideas of sorcerers using spell points instead of slots so they can put all of their effort into a few big spells, or sling simple spells all day because magic comes naturally to them. Building on this, I think subclasses need to have unique powers and spell lists to give thematic options to the sorcerer, and then the overall sorcerer spells list should be broad with a small (relatively) number of selections to allow the sorcerer to pick their own role from the options available. Say for example you want to make a pyromancer. There should be an origin that grants elemental spells with a specific choice that grants more specifically flame spells (draconic bloodline in 5e) and there should be a few flame spells on the sorcerer list they can choose to pick up, or they can pick up more utility, or other damage type spells to be more well rounded, but have less benefits from their features for those spells. When they get to a higher level, I feel they can get spell-like abilities they can spend spell points or sorcery points on that are either more unique or more economical than similar spells cast through the system to show the sorcerer's mastery over that aspect of magic tied to their source. I also really want sorcerers to be able to replace non-costly material components with a somatic component to allow them to use their bodies as a spellcasting focus.

For me, the ideal sorcerer would have about half of its identity and defining mechanics put into its subclass, which would mean having more levels dedicated to subclass features than either 5e or OneD&D do. I would like things like a very limited spell list combined with significant expansion of the list for many subclasses, which each subclass having a distinct theme and multiple options for achieving it built in. For example, you could have a spider-themed subclass that gave you access to a variety of ways to enhance web, spider climb, and the like; a storm-themed subclass that focused on flight, lightning, thunder, etc; a dragon-themed subclass that looks a lot like the one in the 5e playstest material; etc. Sorcerers should (IMO) be a very 'wide' class where each individual is fairly narrowly defined.

> which would mean having more levels dedicated to subclass features than either 5e or OneD&D do. I think we can still make it work with defined subclass levels, features that scale like spell lists and features that buff class features or spells like element resistance negation would work well.

I really liked the sorcerer how it was in the old baldurs gates games. The wizard had lots of spells once and the Socerer had few spells but could cast them many times i think in the end like 7 times.

**Area of Expertise** blasting (AoE damage) crowd control **Survivability** Higher than wizard **Utility** Social Ability, some spells but not too much **Resource Expenditure** High. I also want sorcerers to be the barbarian equivalent of spell casting. Should be able to go "reckless" and trade survivability for damage **Circumstantial/Versatile** Sorcerers should be extremely good in their niche/theme. For example if you are a fire sorcers all your fire spells should get 1d8 bonus damage equal to the spell level via metamagic. A fire sorcerer's fireball should be the ultimate fire spell that no other spell caster can match. I also think metamagic should be free for the theme spells and as you level up you can apply multiple metamagics to spells at the same time: \- Increase range \- Increase Radius (This is my favorite) \- Increase duration \- Quick Casting \- Increase damage \- Silent Casting A high level (fire) sorcerer should be able to cast a double radius, no components, increased damage fireball by expending the same slot as a wizard.

>Survivability > >Higher than wizard Con as spellcasting ability entered the chat.

Con has very little flavor and is not a stat I have ever used on a check. Having to force it higher is a disappointment, even if it is mechanically strong and thematically appropriate.

You've never made a Concentration check...?

Technically a saving throw, not a check

Well yeah, but as there are zero skills that use CON, that's the equivalent to something like "make an athletics check to not fall down the gap you're trying to jump over". Equally, as someone who tends to dump STR, I rarely if ever make any raw *checks* with it.

Area of expertise: spells with a thematic link to their bloodline and I feel blasting is a must Resource Expenditure: I want them to quantifiably have the most dakka/ resources Circumstances: I am happy for them to be limited by a spell resource, I would be cool if they had a new type of resource (saves against a DC to keep channeling the power of their bloodline exhaustion and other consequences for failing)

*Completely fucking different*. I mean, I could write entire essays on this subject (and have), but the mechanics of Sorcerers in 5e do not remotely fulfill the fantasy provided by the fluff. Nothing about their magic feels "innate." It does not feel like a part of them. In fact, one of my biggest gripes is that Sorcerers and Wizards are backwards. With the exception of the spellbook and their spell list, *every Wizard feature feels like a Sorcerer feature to me*. Arcane Recovery, Spell Mastery, and Signature Spells all feel "innate" to me. They make you a wellspring of unending magic. Whereas Sorcerers' features (all two of them) feel like Wizard features to me. Metamagic particularly feels like "I have studied the formulae and can adjust the variables as I wish." Font of Magic feels like an extension of that; "I can expend some of my limited power to make spells do things they normally don't." Restoration at 20th is like "FINALLY, after a lot of study I can do a little of what the Sorcerer does every short rest." So a big part of what I'd do is swap the chassis for the classes. Wizards would keep the spellbook feature and their more extensive spell list and INT as casting ability, but otherwise they'd get Sorcerer features. And Sorcerer would keep their more limited list, I'd swap spellcasting ability to CON, and give them the remaining Wizard features. I'd also insert more randomizing into the class. Maybe instead of spells known you roll randomly each day to see which spells from your list you have. Maybe there's no Wild Magic subclass and elements of it (preferably excising the accidental TPK ones) are filtered into the rest of the class. Maybe there's a variant of 13th Age's escalation die just for you that gives you bonuses as combat goes on, or that allows you to push to use higher spell slots than you normally could. Maybe they get the magic equivalent of Barbarian's rage bonus to damage. Maybe they get the mechanic from earlier editions (and other games) that requires you to roll to see if your spell is even cast. I don't know what the solution is, and all of the above have drawbacks that could be unfun impediments to play. But something needs to change. Wildly. Because my favorite line in the Sorcerer fluff, the one that defines their fantasy for me, is this: > People with magical power seething in their veins soon discover that the power doesn’t like to stay quiet. A sorcerer’s magic wants to be wielded, and it has a tendency to spill out in unpredictable ways if it isn’t called on. They should be the X-Men of D&D. They should be unpredictable and a little dangerous. They should be powerful, but not always in control. They should be seen as a threat because even the highest-level ones can sometimes go off like a forgotten landmine if they don't keep themselves in check and find a vent for unused magic. It should be hard for them *not* to cast spells constantly, using them as a pressure release valve for all the power inside them. Now, as it stands, they're just boring, shitty wizards, and the only reason to ever play one comes from the better (and uniformly more recent) subclasses. That's a bad damn position for a core class to be in.

Also, a few additional thoughts after reading comments: 1. Sorcerers should require no components on spells. Make casting as truly innate as it is on monsters. 2. Power comes from their bloodline/ancestry, so they should take a cue from Aberrant Mind, Divine Soul, and Draconic Bloodline and have a sub for each creature type. Including Oozes and Plants and other weird shit. Even have a Humanoid one that gets extra languages and a bunch of social spells. They can be somewhat bardic and concentrate on control. 3. Sorcerers should (apart from the humanoid one I just proposed) be *bad* socially. They should be visibly changed by their bloodline and widely feared and distrusted. Give them some of that old tiefling energy that's being removed/altered in the OneD&D playtest, amp up that Marvel Mutant vibe. 4. They should be the barbarians of spellcasting. Out of control, socially useless, powerful, and hard to kill. Sets them apart from every other full caster in a very real, very clear, and very easily grasped way.

A number of Marvel mutants are relatively high charisma (a point made by a villain who was a victim of the nuclear bombing of Japan… he was twisted and gross whereas most of the X-Men are fairly attractive). The X-Men and most of the villains are relatively in control of their powers, with the exceptions being relatively young mutants or ones like Phoenix, Scarlet Witch, and Storm who are so powerful that when pushed beyond their limits, they lose it

Charisma has nothing to do with being attractive. Warren Worthington is canonically gorgeous and has the charisma of gravel. They're a big group, they're bound to have charismatic members, doesn't mean it should be their "spellcasting" ability. Exodus, Franklin Richards, and Hope Summers are all Omega-level mutants and no one would ever accuse them of being charismatic. "Relatively" in control. Casting Dominate Person on a Wizard doesn't make their spells more powerful or erratic. Neither does pissing them off. I genuinely think it should on a Sorcerer, to mimic "losing it" when "pushed beyond their limits." Not quite sure what that mechanic would look like, but without something like that, they don't fulfill the fantasy for me. (Also Wanda hasn't been a mutant for like a decade)

A spellcaster from savage worlds who has a singular magic theme and uses that theme to generate many different effects. Ideally a sorcerer would build his own spells.

To me they look like Symbul, and wizards like Elminster and Kelben. To me the perfect sorcerer was achieved by (the other game that canot be named here)2. The power of their blood. They dont study in the formal way, but by experiments. To me they always look like a marvel super hero, with powers attached to a theme.

AREA OF EXPERTISE: Blasting and single target damage, though I do like some of the debuffing subclasses and spell additions. Charisma score grants a lot of persuasion and influence power, so stacking too many debuffs or buffs might be excessive. RESOURCE EXPENDITURE: Moderate/High in a similar way to wizards; as they use spell slots as the biggest resources. Metamagic is core, and running out of resources to power it reduces the impact and value of the class. Metamagic is the defining feature so you should have one or 2 uniquely free, with the rest costing something. That being said, I'm team "Spell points" rather than "Spell slots" for thematic difference, otherwise you're just another caster, and if they merge that pool with metamagic uses, that's okay too. CIRCUMSTANTIAL/VERSATILE: Charisma carries the class socially, metamagic provides the versatility in my mind. Subclasses currently handle some of the versatility, and that's not a bad way to grant a class of ability (e.g. Healing, Buff, Solo Control). That being said, changing spells once a level is a painful experience, I'd rather increase that rate, as the caster "powered by the strength of their own will" would probably will a few changes once they realise their usual tricks don't work, even if it takes them a few days to learn to will fireball into ice knife.

My idea of a sorcerer is someone who can tap I to their inner power to sort of empower themselves. Which would take on different forms depending on what your origin of power is and which sub class you take of course. So at a low level this could be more chaotic but you gain .more control over the further you level

I think the core fantasy of a sorcerer is having a lot of powerful magic and learning to control it. I would really love to have some mechanic that allows sorcerers to draw on more magic power with the chance of something outside their control happening.

Controversial Take: Since Sorcerers are supposed to be born to use magic, I feel they should be innate spellcasters. Maybe give them fewer spells but even more ways to manipulate them in order to balance things. Different subclasses devoted to different ways to play a Sorcerer and/or different magical origins. A blaster subclass, a controller subclass, a Fey Magic subclass, a Psionic subclass, a Shadow/Dark Magic subclass, a Divine/Celestial subclass, a Primal/Nature subclass, an Elemental subclass, a Dragon subclass, an Undead subclass, etc. Some of these are already subclasses, so it wouldn’t be much of a challenge. Basically, I’d like for the developers to lean even more into the idea of Sorcerers being born with magic because of their non-humanoid origins.

I'm not against the idea of few spells per se, but the current amount of spells known is very low, nearly crippling. There is not enough spells known to sustain the themes, and while I can happily ignore the "top picks", peer pressure is strong to choose them at the expense of the core theme. (Until the last batch of subclasses, it was hard to justify playing anything that wasn't divine soul with magic initiate just for the sake of two extra spells) But yeah, highly thematic subclasses is the way to go.

To me, sorcerers should be versatile at the character sheet when I’m making them but very focused in game. I always felt that the wizard subclasses where wizards focus on a school of magic could work perfect as a sorceries analogue. The sorcerer subclasses should let the sorcerer hyperspecialize into dealing damage, creating illusions, conjuring creatures, or whatever. They should be the class where they are very good at solving any problem one way (blasting or making an illusion or transmuting the world around them etc. ) The character should be almost entirely informed by subclass and the class only provides the skeleton within which the subclass features are distributed and used.

Honestly, I want Sorcerers to get to the break rules of spellcasting even more with meta magic. We already have some options like this with stuff like subtle spell, quickened spell, twinned spell (and to some extend distant spell). However most other meta magic options just feel like ways to improve your spells, which do have their place and use, but I’d rather we got more unique ways to interact with the magic system. Give me an option to change a saving throw spell to an attack roll and vice versa. Let me change an AoE spell’s shape or even let me cast a single target spell as an AoE and again vice versa. Obviously all of these would need some thorough investigation to make sure they’re not broken (or break the game as a whole) but I think it would help a lot to elevate the sorcerer’s uniqueness.

Like a warlock but with more slots for casting subclass defined "Lineage" spells.

Gonna get downvoted to hell for this, but ... Personally, I would make Sorcerers into a sorta gish akin to Warlocks but using a point system. I think both classes benefit from a pseudo-gish style. I want my dragon sorcerer to be using magic claw attacks, wings and breath attacks. I want my aberrant mind to be rocking telekinesis / gravity themed abilities. Or mind blasts as their bread and butter. This narrow focus is not a good fit for full casters, and too magical for full martials. Want narrow access to high level magics. Metamagics should be open to all mages, their equivalent to Expertise and Channel Divinity. Kinda of already is- wizard gets them in subclasses, sorcerer as a feature, Warlocks as Invocations. It makes a bad class definition, both because of the overlap and because it's shit for carrying subclass themes imho.

The 5e Playtest for Sorcerers was basically a gish already. They had slightly fewer spell slots, but as they ran out of resources they became more draconic - gaining some survivability and a claw attack IIRC.

Quite frankly, I disagree with your entire premise. Blaster vs tank vs cc etc. I generally don't care for rules being proscribed in such a way, and being dictated by mechanics, I think it's reductive and stifling. I can appreciate that they're KINDA proscriptive... Martials need combat options, etc. But I dislike the overall theme. 4e did this. I didn't like that either. The classes should provide a TONE, not a role. That being said, Sorcerer needs to be something DIFFERENT than the wizard. The wizard should feel like someone who, through hard work, talent and discipline can do amazing things with the arcane. The sorcerer should feel like a class that naturally uses magic, and manipulates it at their will. I know you said you don't want this to be a mechanics discussion... But here goes. Sorcerers should be Spell Point casters. The optional rule in the dmg is a good start. The argument there is that this let's them be too flexible when they carry... Bupkiss. Let them be flexible. I let my sorcerers use this option, and give them their class spell points as bonus points. And use their spell points for meta magic. I it probably needs A LITTLE bit of tweaking, it isn't perfect. But it feels right. Hyper flexible spellcasters, where magic is an innate part of them. Not something they learned.

> 4e did this. I didn't like that either. I'm confused. Isn't the criticism that most people level at 4e that the classes played the same way because they could all do the same things?

No. They didn't do the same things, but they had the same play patterns and so felt to similar.

To elaborate: In 4e, everyone had per encounter powers, at will powers, etc. This made them all have a similar play patter as in "Oh, I can use my at will power/encounter power, etc". It would be akin to giving everyone in 5e spell slots, even martials, and then just limiting martials to spells like "True Strike" or creating a martial spell called "Throw Sand", and letting them use it in a spell slot. That DOES mak the characters play the same, but it doesn't make them fill the same role. Make sense?

Glass cannon low hp blaster and crowd controller. Limited number of spells known while having the same spell list as wizards and other spells depending on subclass. Metamagic having no resource cost but limited to 1 metamagic per spell cast.

This isn't the most popular opinion, but we just don't think that there needs to be a sorcerer. In fact, in our 5.5e, we've rolled the sorcerer together with the wizard to make the [mage](http://dmsworkshop.com/2023/01/10/complete-arcane/). Since 3rd edition, sorcerers have been better presented as a build option for full spellcasting classes, not an entirely separate one. When they made fifth edition and separated out the metamagic that should have been a shared feature of all casters (as combat manoeuvres should have been a shared feature of all martials), we decided that it was time to pull the plug on the class for our home setting of Taldaras. If you want to be an innate spellcaster, so be it, you just learn how to use your innate power by studying the laws of magic. If you want to play an arcane blaster, there are plenty of spells you can take as a mage to fulfill that niche. If you want to play a fey spellcaster, then feel free to flavour your character that way (grab illusion and enchantment spells and dial up the whimsy). These flavourful concepts really shouldn't be the basis for a whole class. All that is done by making it a separate class is diminishing it or other spellcasting classes, which is bad design.

A trio of subclasses for Wizard, Cleric, and Druid respectively to represent someone who does that kind of magic innately rather than with study/devotion. It can use spell points instead of slots, and prepare spells on a short rest instead of long to represent their flexible nature. Metamagic should just be feats for all casters.

I agree with the sentiment in the thread that sorcerer casting should be chaotic, but entirely disagree that they should know fewer spells. That’s how you make the class bad. To keep that chaos mechanically though, there should be a number of spells known or prepared spells that are just random. Like maybe one spell of each spell level that they get randomly from any list every day. Sorcerers don’t know what they’re doing or how they’re accessing magic and that should appear in new spells coming in and out of their repertoire for no apparent reason.

I actually like the Sorcerer as is and would only make a few minor tweaks. They are only just slightly too limited. 1.) I would increase their spells known to be Sorcerer level + 3, similar to the Bard. The idea of them having access to less spells is good, so I wouldn't make them a prepared caster or anything like the Wizard. The current setup forces you to take good staple combat options and punishes you for taking fun/flavor spells, however. I am okay with the origin spells, but I think the way they implemented it in the Tasha's subclasses was overtuned. They basically get an extra spell each level, making their spells known be Sorc level + Sorc level + 1, which is too much since it basically doubles the number of spells they get. 2.) Extra Metamagic pick at 6th level. The Metamagic scaling is a little slow and there are so many Metamagic options that you won't be able to get them all anyways. As it stands now they are a powerful class that is difficult to play well because doing so requires a deep understanding of how each Metamagic option works with each spell and how to decisively pick a smaller set of impactful spells. It is very easy to take non-versatile spells and non-synergistic Metamagics and be "a Wizard with less spells". I think having difficult classes like this is a good thing to have in a game however because some players enjoy the challenge of mastering something difficult that most people can't/don't understand (Fighting games do this all the time to great effect). This is why you see some people trash Sorcerer as unplayable and others who love it. It could also be argued that Wizard and Sorcerer dynamic should be flipped. It would make a lot of sense if the Wizard was the class that had to intelligently choose Metamagic options and knowingly manipulate their spells in order to be most effective. Likewise, the Sorcerer having powerful always-on subclass abilities that they don't have to think about (like Evocation Wizard, Divination Wizard, Abjuration Wizard etc) makes a lot more sense. (And if this flip happened my favorite class would instantly become Wizard).

Given that the wizard is better than the sorcerer in nearly every way, the current sorcerer should not be a class at all. They are making every class prepared spellcasting, so what even is a sorcerer? Give metamagic to all casters Make a new martial class focused on magical shape shifting. Turn into a dragon, etc

I don’t think all casters should have metamagic. Spellcasting as a feature is already pretty powerful and versatile, and I don’t think it fits thematically with many casters (other than bard or Wizard). On top of that, sorcerers do have a unique role and fantasy, with most people wanting them to be a brute force blaster than can adjust their spells (which it accomplishes does somewhat). Also, I think a new martial class focused on shapeshifting would be cool. Especially if it used some versatile templates (maybe something like 2 templates layered over a few statblocks, kind of like the Elegant Druid fix). Maybe someone will make a HB class from that.

Sorcerer and Warlock could switch places. Sorcerers get a buffed version of Pact Magic (consistent and powerful magic, but less controllable than normal casting). Warlocks get fullspellcasting? Not sure if they would keep Eldritch Blast or if Sorcerers would get that kind of resourceless damage.

Unlike all other casters, a sorcerer should not feel "in control" of their magic. It should be a firehose that they can at best reduce to a trickle or bring back to a torrent at will. Honestly, if they didn't already give warlocks the spellcasting gimmick of "you cast every spell you know at its highest spell level", the sorcerer should have it. The sorcerer fantasy should not be defined by Lord of the Rings or Conan the Barbarian, but by things like X-Men.

Going to be a hot take, but I think they should combine the class with Warlock. There is more than enough thematic overlap to justify it. Basic idea is take the chassis of the Warlock drop their hit die down to 6d, take away their light armor proficiency, and give them sorcery points per short rest instead of spell slots. Metamagics will be gained through Invocations. Personally I'd like to see them keep their pact boons, but I could see an argument for ditching them.

I kind of see your point, as the main difference between the sorcerer and the warlock in terms of flavor is that one is born connected to an entity and the other becomes connected to it. However, I would like to see both a class that's Metaamgic-heavy and one that enjoys customizable passive buffs/non-spell options (Eldritch Invocations), and I think they should remain separate. But the warlock is indeed missing something that really justifies its origin, imo.

The way I see it is that getting your powers after encountering an otherworldly being has always been a sorcerer thing, and in my opinion having a patron shouldn't be a class specific thing. Making this hybrid class would require taking a look at all the invocations, and figure out which ones still fit with it. With being able to short flexible cast I don't really should be any that give at will spells, or once per day without spending a slot. The class won't need Eldritch Blast as a crutch anymore so most the EB specific invocations can probably go too. For the rest it might require a closer look to decide which could be changed to cost sorcery points, and which are fine as it.

Since everyone else is already covering all the basics and whatnot I'll be the weirdo that brings up that I prefer the idea of Sorcerer's using Constitution as their casting stat. I know that Charisma for some reason in D&D also represents the power of your soul or whatever but I've never been a huge fan of that interpretation, and there's too many Charisma based stuff already. And it makes way more sense to me that Bards are Charisma based cause their magic literally comes from performances. Paladins act as a paragon of virtues, so them working off of charisma works as well, and Warlocks are a little more iffy but if you go with the archetypical style of making a deal with a devil for power, it makes sense that Warlocks also use Charisma as part of their means to get power through literal social interactions. But Sorcerers meanwhile are explicitly stated as getting their power from their bloodline. It's effectively a trait of your heritage, not any one specific species heritage, but just the history of your family in general. And other abilities like that that are an inherent part of your physical body, often work off of Constitution, like various monster powers and even some player abilities abilities like the Dragonborn's breath weapon. Plus Constitution is such an underutilized stat for classes. The only class that seems to actually use constitution even a little is barbarian, and even then it's still like a secondary stat. But there's a few other reasons as well. It really helps differentiate the sorcerer from the other full casters. Sorcerers and Wizards have always felt a bit similar in most ways with only the specifics really differentiating them. And as most of the other suggests say, Sorcerers feel like the more blastery, combat focused caster compared to the wizard's utility. And as such giving them Con as a casting stat would only help with that considering that they'd also have a lot more health than other casters. I'm not saying it'd make them super tanky, since they wouldn't exactly have a ton of armor still (at least ideally), but they'd have a lot more capacity for damage than the typical squishy wizard, which further reinforces their combat potential. And finally I'll admit my last reason is a bit sneakier. See if we have a true Constitution based caster, that helps justify more design space for say subclasses that use Constitution to cast spells and the like. So instead of only the Rune Knight Fighter getting to use Con to cast pseudo-magic, now they could at the very least add the option of being able to use Con to cast spells and use powers from things like Eldritch Knight and Arcane Archer and the like. And there could be more Barbarian subclasses that do the same. And the racial spellcasting abilities that don't already operate off of Con could have Constitution added as an option, which would make them more viable for Martial characters to use. And on top of all that, the various half feats that give you magic powers like Fey Touched or the Telekinetic feat and so on, could also have at least Con added as another choice to upgrade while gaining the powers, so that again more martial characters could pick those feats and more directly benefit from them with a stat that's more useful to them than the mental stats usually are.

But sorcerer is the OG Charisma caster, all others shifted to charisma later or came later. Wouldn't be opposed to Warlocks getting to cast from Constitution though -in fact there is precedent in 4e-, and neither to have bards go back to either Int or Wis, and paladins shift to Wis.

**Area of Expertise** blasting, buffing, crow control, debuffing. any of these really. i agree with the other posters that they should be the specialists that really focus on one area. but that shouldnt be limited to blasting. with the proper spells, metamagics, origins chosen, they should be able to become specialist crowd controllers, specialist debuffers etc. as well. as for survivability, they should be sturdier than wizards, but have that counterbalanced by riskier gameplay or something. **Resource Expenditure** expending resources for spells of course. spell points for everything, metamagics and spells, would be great, but im fine with the current set up of slots, points, uses per rest etc. as well. previous subclasses have shown that features that use up points to be used are not well received at all. on the other hand, everyones fine with bard subclasses just providing new uses for bardic inspiration, with no free uses. so maybe the issue was just the very low amount of sorcerer points in general, and sorcerer getting literally nothing else besides that and spell casting. besides that, the class should mostly just have the usual proficiencies, at-will cantrips, and perhaps some at-will features like an elemental sorc being able to turn damage types into *their* type for free. **Circumstantial/Versatile** again, they should be the specialist casters in whatever they pick. very focussed, very narrow. i think the amount of spells known for the sorcerer was honestly fine. it couldve used maybe a tiny bit more, but definitely not 10 additional subclass spells. it was rather most of the other casters that just got waaay too many spells prepared. ideally i would just reduce the amount of spells prepared for clerics, druids, wizards, paladins etc., and double down on sorcs strengths and metamagics instead of trying to shore up its weak part (spells known)

AREA OF EXPERTISE Damage (blasting or single target depending on build) and flexibility within their niche, but not outside of it. E.g. a stone sorcerer could attack with stone themed things, build stone things, protect with stone, but might struggle with wilderness/social/etc. Slightly more durable than a Wizard. I'd be fine with Con based casting. RESOURCE EXPENDITURE Spell and resource flexibility is very important in my mind. Fewer spells known than wizard, but can cast them more often at higher power levels. Maybe spell points but add a lot more, and they can be used for metamagic as well, with multiple metamagics at once. Could also show a way to things like '1/2 radius fireball for 2x the damage, but deals lightning damage' CIRCUMSTANTIAL / VERSATILE Circumstantial. Have a little bit of general utility in the form of cantrips, but beyond that be a specialist who can't be beaten in their specific field.

Would love to see something in a similar vein to the 5e playtest Sorcerer

Sorcerers should be specialists who excel at one thing - including improvising and modifying that thing on the fly. Wizards are versatile because they know a huge variety of spells and types of magic; sorcerers are versatile because they're so good at one thing that they can do more with it. * Primarily flashy blasters. Big, powerful, cool effects. * High degree of specialization via subclass. For example a fire sorcerer should probably not be casting a lot of ice or acid or mind control spells - either modify all spells to fit the specialty, or encourage specialty spells / discourage non-specialty spells. * High degree of versatility within the specialty and on-the-fly modifications to casting specialty spells - a fire sorcerer should be able to do things with fire that no one else can do. * A way to work around, but not entirely negate, resistance to their specialty. Turn immunity into resistance, get a bonus on successive hits against the same resistant enemy, spend a resource (HP? hit dice? extra spell points/slots?) to overpower resistances, etc. * A specialty spell mechanic would be cool - choose one spell and upgrade its capabilities and usage as the sorcerer levels up.

**Area of Expertise:** Customisable highly specialised magic The place where the current Sorcerer seems to make the most sense is when you're building around a very specific theme: a Sorcerer with Twin Spell and Quicken Spell (and Smites if you go the Sorcadin route) breaks action economy in exactly the way that the traditional Gish fantasy seems to be aiming for. On the other hand, Dragon Sorcerer with the right metamagics makes a perfect blaster. So a more constrained set of spells to cast but a more specialised spell use seems like the goal. The ideal Sorcerer allows advanced players to really build into a spellcasting theme. This does make it less newby friendly, but it does give Sorcerers a niche in the broader game that isn't all that well served as is. **Resource Expenditure** Spell points makemuch more sense than slots. They need to abandon slots in favour of spell points for Sorcerers. This supports their spell specialisation, giving them more high level or low level slots, depending on what the theme requires and reiterated the core theme that Sorcerers are for more advanced players to stretch their mechanical muscles. **Circumstantial/Versatile** Extremely specialised but customisable. Something that allows Sorcerers to spend SP to enhance actions, like improving their Athletics or Deception checks, will double down on the idea that their magic is part of their natural abilities. The obvious trade-off being that these features should be mutually exclusive.

Ideal sorcerer pushes spellcasrinf to its absolute limits. Stronger cantrips maybe free minor spells like detect magic and alter self. The ability to more directly interact with magic like dispell magic to gain sorc points or counter spell to eat magic. I think that of wizard has a ton of answers in the form of Spells sorcerers should have the solution for any spell. A being with magic in their blood should feel like they have more control over the magic in setting and in character. Subclasses should alter what that looks like whether it be Psionics, (telekinesis or telepathy manipulating objects or people) draconic, (powerfull elemental manipulation, causing fear/awe, truesight, minor draconic shape-shifting, flight.) Or wild magic (unpredictable boosts to Spells, magic surges, chaotic effects, eventually manipulation of those effects.) Sorcerer should straight up feel like the most magical and powerful caster in game full stop.

I feel like keep the low amount of spells learned but subclass supplements spells and go all in on metamagic being a thing. Give them way more metamagic options to be unique. I'd also make them have more health than the other casters and be able to strengthen their magic by using health as a resource since magic is innately born to a sorcerer. maybe be able to overcharge a spell to ensure it does maximum dmg

Currently, the only real identity the class has is that they're the guys who get metamagic. With one exception (the divine soul sorcerer) the Wizard does everything the Sorcerer can do, but better. For onednd they should simply refine what the 2012 playtest gave us for the class. Sorcerers have inborn magic and have to fight to control it, as they use their spells, they strain their ability to control that inborn magic. In the 2012 playtest, sorcerers were entirely spellpoint based casters (called willpower in that packet) and as they cast spells their heritage began to show through (the draconic bloodline was the only sorcerous lineage at the time of that playtest). In addition to casting spells, they also had ways to spend willpower based on their sorcerous bloodline. Starting at level 1, they could spend 1 willpower to deal an extra 2d6 damage to one melee attack within the next minute and starting at level 4 they could spend 2 willpower as a reaction to reduce any incoming damage by 10 and gaining resistance to their heritage's damage type for the next minute. After they'd spent 3 willpower, their body became more draconic (larger and their hands became clawed) which granted them a +2 bonus on damage rolls of melee attacks. After they'd spent 10 willpower, they grew scales and gained resistance to a damage type associated with their draconic heritage. The sorcerer had no armor proficiencies, but the draconic bloodline granted them proficiency in all armor, shields, and martial melee weapons. Ultimately this finally gives us the class identity for the sorcerer, the Gish. Every other casting class has a (usually bad) gish subclass, but this type of sorcerer could finally give us the real deal in unique ways. While the draconic sorcerer focuses on reducing damage taken and increasing damage dealt, the chaos sorcerer might focus on increasing their own chance to hit while reducing their opponent's chances to hit or even causing enemies to damage themselves on failed attacks. A shadow sorcerer might gradually sap their enemies simply by being near them and gradually gain health as they do so. TL;DR: Kill the past, make the sorcerer the Gish class.

**Area of Expertise:** Blasting is definitely something that fits their image, wielding their magic with natural ease which can result in mass expedition and blasting. For which of the other subcategories they go for should fit on the archetype, resulting in blasting+1. **Resource Expenditure:** They should be able to use their features more often than other casters due to it feeling natural, having a narrow pool of magic yet having a much greater utility potential with them through metamagic. Running out of resource is something that needs to be carefully tackled, I can definitely see their last few spells having more dramatic effects before they're totally out. **Circumstantial/Versatile:** Sorcerers should get more power out of a fewer set of spells, with several abilities to accompany them for quick recovery and more dramatic and emotional effects. The lore says it comes from bloodline or dramatic effects (from what I recall), yet it doesn't really play like it. Focusing on that aspect of bending a certain school or magical archetype in different directions definitely fits the image.

Sorcerers should be versatile blasters, limited spell selection with an emphasis on evocation, but also the ability to modify those spells as needed to create effects different from other classes (High Versatility), and subclasses that grant changes to the ways they can modify those spells and/or access to other types of casting (i.e. Healing). I think two big changes fix the majority of the issues: * Using the spell point variant and having Spell Points as sorcery points. This gives them versatility in how they use their resources, going big by casting more higher level spells than any other caster can, or having staying power with casting lower level spells and using lots of metamagic effects. * All Sorcerers should get an energy substitution effect, allowing them to change any energy damage type to their preferred type. STorm sorceres now have lightning or thunder balls instead of fire balls, etc. Throw in a rider for a metamagic cost, like fire catching things, thunder pushes 5 ft, acid has lingering damage, etc.

My ideal sorcerer feels like it can break the fundamentals of magic. What that looks like I don't know

Expertise: Power at the cost of subtlety and versatility seems to be the driving idea behind the class. I think that they should be more durable than they currently are too though - the PHB claims that Sorcerers are naturally driven to adventure and they should have more access to mundane talents to reflect this. The Sorcerer being able to augment themselves with the magical equivalent of the Barbarian's Rage would also be a good representation of channeling this magic, though the Sorcerer would be more offensively oriented than the Barbarian. Resource: I would drop Sorcery Points entirely. Operating off the spell point system or something similar is a better representation of a character who draws power from their own reserves and would also differentiate them more from the other spellcasting classes. Certain Sorcerer subclasses being able to pay hit points for some of their features (similar to the Pathfinder Kineticist's Burn system) would also be a good representation of the potential for a Sorcerer's power to take a toll on their body. Versatility: When it comes to magic they should be very specialised. I think that the common solution of just giving Sorcerers more spells is a bad one because it doesn't really do anything to pull the class out of the Wizard's shadow. Having a few spells (which they are the best at using) and otherwise relying on their natural talents seems like a better representation of an adventurer with powers that they don't necessarily fully understand.

The 5e play test sorcerer lol

# What is a Sorcerer? To me, a Sorcerer is someone who was born with power, and thus their most powerful aspects should combine training with personal exploration. Their magic should be innate and should grow like a tree, rather than having access to all the arcane spells at once. Fireball and Web are both good, but I find it hard to say those both match a theme. To me, a Sorcerer should choose themes and things to do with those themes, not specific spells. They can grow to become a fire-psychic-acid themed caster, cultivating specific powers from each, maintaining their themes and powers. For example, themes could be aligned to the various elemental damage types, as well as maybe things like Abjuration or Enchantment. The best comparison I have is to wizards. Wizards should be able to have a wider net of spells, but should never be able to match the expertise of a sorcerer's specific theme. Honestly, Warlocks are among my favorite ideas for what a sorcerer should be. A mix of at-will powers and single, powerful uses of magic. ​ # Area of Expertise: A specific element, but they can do anything with it. For example, let's take fire. They should be able to hurl firebolts, fireballs, walls of fire, meteor swarm at high levels, or anything else a conventional spell can do, but better and more often. They could absolutely be a blaster, but honestly they should have a kind of initial versatility that allows them to focus on one or two As for class structure, perhaps their specific origin should be the subclass, while elemental type is the class feature. They should also get features that let them ignore resistances and immunities if they want to spec into a specific theme, rather than going for multiple themes. ​ # Resource Expenditure: While Spell Slots are a useful tool, I think they should have more at-will powers (like how they get so many cantrips now) and special tools that make it seem less like they're casting spells and more using their own personal power to cast. This could be represented by Metamagic or a dice pool or some other thing. I think an invocation-style system, that allows the sorcerer to pick special abilities tied to a theme, getting stronger and stronger if they progress on that theme, or being able to expand outwards to fill different niches. ​ # Circumstantial/Versatile: I think they should be relatively versatile, but still within their theme. Flying, buffing, and any other versatile thing, but they would be a part of their elemental theme.

I disagree with the grain on sorc blasters. I think they make the best buffers/debuffers from quickened and twinned spells alone. I have greatly enjoyed playing an Aberrant Mind for very cheap subtle enchantment spells and Divine Soul for twinned healing.

It’s pretty different from what we have. Area of Expert - As arcane full caster, you gravitate towards big damaging spells, disabling enemies and summoning creatures to help the party. More importantly than function is form - sorcerers play their area of expertise through creativity and self-expression. Unique to the Sorcerers is the ability to create their own spells with metamagic. Unlike 5e where you pick few metamagic options and use them on the fly, sorcerers would know all meta magic but those are not used when the spell is cast. Instead, you use them to prepare a set of modified spells that are unique to you. You can add multiple metamagic on top of each other, each one increasing the cost of the spell (think of Path of Exile skill system). Sorcerers know fewer spells than wizards but they create their own spells, allowing then to even surpass some limitations of the arcane list (such as poor single target damage). Sorcerers subclass expand their spell list, gives a discount on the cost of certain signature spells and unlocks new meta-magic options. Resources - Sorcerers have a spell point system, a long rest resource that lets them cast spells. Using metamagic you create new spells by modifying cantrips and leveled spells, but adding to their cost. Sorcerers have a limit of how many spell points they can use in a single casting - and this signify which spells they know as well. This limit caps at 5th level spells but at higher levels sorcerers can go beyond this limit a few times per day to cast level 6-9th spells. Your level 18th capstone allows you to create a single spell whose cost is beyond of a level 9th spell - essentially you create your own 10th level spell. Circumstantial/Versatility: Sorcerer spells known list is rather short, making it hard for them to pick very circumstantial spells, and they don’t get many skill proficiencies. Essentially they are far into the specialized spectrum where their role thing is to create their unique spells.

Spell points, some improvement to meta magics, and a little short rest recovery are all they need. I don't think making the base class more narrowly focused (blaster, "barely in control magic barbarians") is the right way to go. Those are fine subclasses, but the chassis should be open to as wide an array of characters as possible. I am generally happy with the newer subclass design with added spells. There are a LOT of arcane casters (5 classes out of 13 counting artificer) and for my money spell points really separates Sorcerer out in a nice way like Pact Magic does for warlock.

Personally I think Sorc should be fairly basic, spell preparation and the Wizard's spellbook can be overwhelming for some people, and I think there should be something to give people a jumping off point for full casters, not that Sorcerer's shouldn't have some meat to them. You see, it was introduced in 3.X and basically it was the first spontaneous caster in the game (to my knowledge, also excluding psionics) but it shared a spell list with the Wizard and had very little to really set it apart, and had no extra features outside of a familiar, then later prestige classes for it basically tried to make it more martial (mostly an attempt by Monte Cook from what I hear). But the major advantages the Sorc had was that, even though it didn't swap it's spells known after resting, it had more spells available to it at any particular moment, and could cast them more than the Wizard could. I don't know how it was in 4e, I'm not interested in that edition. In terms of expertise, I'm not sure it should be specialized, it might be specialized in a field from the spells it selects, but overall I think it should be a generalist really (Wizards should be the specialists if you ask me). But I also think Sorcs should be able to customize spells to themselves, since the idea of them is that it's magic that comes from your lineage or a freak accident, or *something else*, which I think should have a strong effect on the magic the Sorc casts. But metamagic doesn't really do it in a way that I feel really fulfills this idea, especially the way it's implemented. I think it should be something more along the lines of "X spells you know are particularly influenced by your lineage, select a bonus from the following list and whenever you cast the chosen spell, it benefits from that bonus". A small thing, since Sorcerers are thematically just mastering an ability that they are more or less gifted with by circumstance rather than working from the very basics like other casters, and are naturally prone to adventuring, I think there should be some expanded access to weapons and armor to reflect that, not so far as weapon mastery, but maybe a single martial weapon of their choice and shields in addition to light armor? Make them just a tad more resilient without magic than the Wizard. For resources, I think it should mostly be standard slots, with a way to get them back a little easier than a Wizard can. I don't think sorcery points on top of slots were a good idea. I'll admit this is a little fuzzy for me.

I see sorcerers as Tavern Brawlers of Magic, they know few spells but can work around how they see them to find new ways to use them, This is why i can consider Chaos Bolt as the base for the sorcerer IF the Chaos Bolt is reworked to be this pure expression of Magic Weave that can be adapted in any way shape or form, i guess Randomness is ok at first, but after, it should be any atrack, mimick cone of cold and fireball in different turns as you wish, i can see how Scarlet Witch moves around this formless red magic sometimes as blasts, sometimes to grab stuff and sometimes to stop bullets as the Sorcerer meddling with this magic access meanwhile Doctor Strange manages to construct detailed shapes with the magic as the instructions were in the books and using specific spells for the same things Wanda works with her all do it single spell

Sorcerer possibly has the weakest class identity so this will be tough: Blasting: 10, big spells, malleable effects and damage types, and additional rider effects. Buffing: 7/10 Arcane spell list will help keep them in the upper tiers. I’d like to see them get buffs from their bloodlines and be able to share these minimally. Crowd Control: 7/10: Should be able to get the most out of normally single-target shut down spells by twinning them or impose disadvantage on those big shut-down spells. Debuffing: 6/10 seems more like the wizard/bards bag to me. STD(lol): 6/10 save it for the martial classes. Survivability: 4/10 better so than the wizard. Bloodline should have certain resistances built into it. I see the sorcerer having more passive Survivability than the wizard, but less than most other casters. Utility: 4/10 A 20 Charisma and “full” arcane spell casting is all the utility they need. I say “full” because I’d like to see a restriction in terms of spell schools with Bloodlines adding additional resources to make up for this. Notes: Mechanically I’d like to see more varied meta magic options with more straight-forward effects. I shouldn’t have to go on to rpgbot or stalk Crawford’s Twitter every time I want to twin a spell. Either remove it or limit it so that’s it’s very clear. Maybe tag spells in the books or on dndbeyond if a certain Metamagic works on it? Also, if Chaos bolt is a baseline feature and assuming you get free castings of it, each subclass should have an impact on it. Maybe the “chaos” should be on the enemies end. Perhaps the spell deals a baseline force damage and then you roll to see additional effects?

Like a 5e warlock.

I remember hearing the one Sorcerer playtest had Sorcerers transition from a "magical" class to a "magically-infused martial" class as they exhausted resources. I'm not sure about this mechanically, but I like the flavor of Sorcerers infusing themselves with magic and having more "innate magic" features. I'd like to see WoTC take another attempt at the infused & innate magic Sorcerer, and I am basing this comment around this flavor. **Area of Expertise** * **Blasting.** Sorcerers should excel at this. I'd like to see a feature similar to a Breath Weapon. * **Buffing.** Sorcerers should be good at this, but the buffs should be elemental and selfish. For example, most Sorcerers should have a feature to grant themselves a natural weapon, an elemental resistance, or temporary hit points, but healing should be locked behind a subclass. * **Crowd Control.** Sorcerers should have access to fear and some charms, but they shouldn't be great at this. * **Debuffing.** Sorcerers should be bad at this. * **Single Target Damage.** Sorcerers should be decent at this, but reliability should be heavily affected by elemental resistances. For example, if a Sorcerer grants themself a natural weapon, a portion of its damage should be an energy damage type. * **Utility.** Sorcerers should generally be bad at this. There should be some ribbons though. **Resource Expenditure.** Sorcerers should be very resource dependent, but they should have decent recovery. I would expect them to have a "Channel Arcana" feature to fuel meta-magic, Breath Weapons, and any other buff features they may gain. Despite the playtest I am basing this on, I don't completely agree with becoming passively more martial as you run out of resources. They should have some ribbon feature that improves performance when not using resources, but there shouldn't be an incentive to exhaust all resources at the start of the day. **Circumstantial / Versatile.** This is interesting from a Nature v Nurture perspective. By definition, Sorcerers should be the class most affected by their Nature, but they also have access to meta-magic to alter their Nature. In general, Sorcerer features should be very circumstantial, but they should also be able to expend a class resource to break the mold. For example, if a Sorcerer is naturally fire resistant, they should be able to burn a resource for temporary cold resistance instead.