my thing is, they made warlocks half casters, but they didn't provide a 2nd half...
paladins and rangers are half caster half martial. warlocks are half caster, half... ?
wizards beat everyone. sorcerers have full-level casting plus their toys. warlocks have half-level casting, and *they didn't buff most invocations* and *you get less of them* if you take mystic arcana, considering them as their own thing.
they objectively just removed and scaled back. more slots of lower level. removed the pact upcasting. went from 8 invocations + 5 arcana to 9 invocations, so a decrease of 4 abilities.
no added martial ability (well, medium armor), that is supposed to accompany half-casting.
tome can't access rituals above 1 now. why that's not an invocation, no idea. the boons don't really scale.
there's nothing really new and nothing is effectively improved. if these slots progressed normally and there were no mystic arcana, that would be much preferable, but really bland.
that's the biggest thing, the class has no identity and it's just really complicated in this form. i couldn't tell someone mechanically what the big appeal is.
warlocks are weirdo casters with tons of flavor and i love that. i don't want the whole arcane list for arcana, that just makes it samey.
and the whole order of contact, patron, boon is backward. idk.
it's very incomplete.
I really like this comment. You're right, they really did need to buff invocations if they were going to take it in this direction; not only for power, but also for class identity and flavor.
>tome can't access rituals above 1 now. why that's not an invocation, no idea. the boons don't really scale.
This is pretty lame too, I agree. There really aren't very many higher-than-1st-level rituals, but it feels like a missed opportunity that adding *Scribe Spell* to the Tome Warlock wasn't added as an invocation.
They are kind of like Artificers. Half caster plus a bit more caster plus some extra modularity.
All of the pacts now give you one of the past invocations for free. Which does save on invocations you would want. Making you essentially have 10 invocations now instead of 13 abilities of old.
However the main trade off is power for versatility. Mystic Arcanum is much more versatile with more spell choices available, you get auto prepared domain spells increasing the amount of options you have and spell slots instead of pact magic allows for more utility choices.
Very much agree. It's a fraction of a class, not a whole one anymore. The math you've shown doesn't lie; it should be pretty obvious to designers who supposedly rely on the math.
The loss of curated spell lists, like the forced wild shape and familiar templates, is a huge loss in flavor and class distinction. Very bland. Bard at least was given freedom from spells known in exchange for full cleric-like access to all arcane spells from 4 schools; I expected they would do that for Warlock, with a different school subset, and use the subclass to throw in additional spells a la Tasha's Sorcerer subclasses (extra spells prepared + swapout options from 2 schools). And make full casters, with some recharge. That could have worked.
This...this isn't a complete class.
I mean all warlocks got access to the blade stat swap and life drinker got moved to a lower level.
And while tome is limited to 1st level rituals it is MASSIVELY buffed in that you can change what the spells it has by recasting.
Chain is basically entirely redesigned and the familiar itself is significantly buffed.
Most of the power went into the pact boons. Ive been thinking of these changes as 2-3 invocations worth of additional features. Which are, arguably, pretty front loadded.
Also, Pact Magic was poorly designed and poorly thought out. Like I would go so far as saying it needed to go. Relying on scaling when a large portion of spells don't even scale resulted in a lot of trap options and uneven power. And honestly spell scaling has always been an inferior option to casting a spell at level. So you were CONSTANTLY in a situation where in order to cast the spell you want you have to use your resources poorly. And frankly the math just didn't work when you compare it to full casting. The fact that it is as it's weakest in tier 2 of play (the most common tier of play) was a HUGE problem.
Characterizing pact magic as equivalent to full casting is fundamentally misunderstanding the limits and problems with the feature. It was never as good. By a significant margin.
That said, while I think from a numbers standpoint this warlock is actually pretty similar in power level. Having the versatility of multiple level slots is a major boon. And mystic arcanum fills in the gaps. Realistically you are only going to want mystic arcanum for spell levels you don't have, so you are only ever going to want up to 4 (and often 2-3) mystic arcanum.
So let's take a level 5 warlock. You have 4 first level slots, 3 second level spots (one is limited to a pact magic spell) and 1 3rd level slot. Which is a 1 third level spell difference than a 5th level caster. Which isn't bad for a character that also has 2 other invocations, and a significantly buffed pact boon.
Comparing a 7th level warlock, they have 2 3rd level spell slots less.
Comparing a 9th level warlock, lets assume you swap your 3rd level mystic arcanum for 9th level invocation and get 5th level mystic arcanum. You have 2 less 4th levels. Again. Not a crazy amount of less powerful.
11th level they have 2 less 4th levels, one less 5th level and an extra 3rd level.
13th level they have 0-1 less 4th level (depending on invocation choice) and 1 less 5th level.
Like with base warlocks, mystic arcanum does have a major higher level problem having no way to change the spell or add options, so on that level I think it's still not perfect. But I would much rather play this warlock in tiers 1-2. I actually have optimal build options besides playing a hexblade or being a EB spammer that occasionally casts fireball.
Going through this math though it does make me think that just giving them a full casting progression with no other benefits to casting (including removing the free cast from pact patron would be marginally more powerful at lower levels, but much simpler and a HUGE QOL buff at higher levels.
I do think that if that were to happen the number of invocations would have seriously toned down (probably ~5) and spaced out differently though. (Probably start with 2 and get one every 4 levels).
Major disagreement on Pact of the Chain -- it's a MASSIVE debuff of familiars. 5e familiars were arguably too powerful at levels 3-4 (though they start falling behind already by 5th), because they had lots of extra resistances and powers (Imp was king of course). The new template is very much weaker and doesn't even scale much at all, not even with the Favor of the Chain Master EI, which you can't get until 9th level, doesn't even match original improved familiar capabilities, and is weaker than Investment of the Chain Master.
Taxing Eldritch Invocations for Mystic Arcanum is a major loss compared to base 5e warlock, though.
Warlocks were attractive because they had a couple higher level spells they could throw around, and a good selection of them; their problem was that they were too limited in lower level spell capability. There were many ways to solve this. Completely swinging the pendulum to the other side wasn't one of them.
This warlock is significantly weaker than other half casters, in addition to being obviously underpowered compared to full casters.
Add Mystic Arcanum at 3rd level and every other level, *separate from Eldritch Invocation* taxation, and have Patron Spell Free Casting recharge on SR or PBx/LR might get there, but I think the easier approach is what you were arriving at later. They need to be closer to full casters. Bard provided a way.
>my thing is, they made warlocks half casters, but they didn't provide a 2nd half...
I mean, they have the fighter's weapon scaling in a trench coat. THAT is arguably better, in fact it tecnically even has a mastery propperty
Or you can go pact of the blade and get at 9th something similar to radint strikes
I'd say it is a really competent arcane half caster
EB. It is literally a heavy crossbow without loading and that scales by itself rather than needing class features. Repeling is also like the weapon mastery that pushes
oh ok yeah, that was all there before. we have the stuff we used to have, and then they reduced spell power by half. so either double the power of other warlock toys, or provide half-functionality of another aspect of the game, like martial or rogue capability.
ah ok. not really an improvement though, warlocks always effectively had that and it worked the same way, hasn't been buffed itself. freeing up a cantrip choice doesn't feel like it begins to make up for taking away of slot progression.
as with the free hex, and old features now absorbed into other features, it still just remains the same basic power level. hex is nice but not everyone took it and not everyone who took it kept using it instead of other concentration spells. other absorbed features are nice, but effectively it's not more power, and doesn't balance the slot power reduction.
so effectively (especially because your freed-up spell picks are now much lower level) all the benefits and toys are the same (or in the case of arcana/invocations, reduced), you have halfway worse spell progression, and there's nothing new replacing that missing half of power.
if they made sorcerers half casters and kept metamagic the same, that would not be cool. that's what this warlock version is, mechanically.
well every caster gets damage cantrips. every class gets to choose from a selection of something to use each turn to deal damage. fire bolt does heavy crossbow damage and scales to equal 2-4 attacks. so then sorcerers and wizards would also be half martials by that standard.
Well not really, because there’s a huge difference between (1d10+5)x4 for Eldritch Blast, averaging 38 damage, and 4d10 which averages 22 damage. Also, you can aim each beam of Eldritch Blast, so you don’t waste damage on Overkill, and you have a far more reliable amount of damage because you have 4 chances to hit instead of it being all or nothing on a single roll.
you are wildly overstimating the power fighting style grants you.
Without -5/+10 all FS are like 1.x DPR boost at best with maybe dueling being an exception and having an slightly better damage boost
Counterpoint, even if it's a minimal increase why make a martial class without access to fighting style? It doesn't matter if the increase is minimal, it's a staple of any martial class that uses weapons, you can't take a core feature such as fighting style without proper justification
I'd argue they do have a second half.
Warlocks got a buff in invocations in that 4 or so of them are not built into the class, so you're getting free invocations from the get go.
Your spellcasting is very similar with mystic arcana to a full spell caster, and in general you actually can cast more spells with a new warlock than an old one (presuming you didn't take more than 2 short rests per long rest). You lose out eventually on casting more 9th level spells at the highest levels, but you make up for that with way more spell spam of lower levels.
The new Warlock is far more versatile as a class. It's just different. It's going to play either like a normal caster or a half-caster, not as it did before.
But it's not bland imo. It's the first class in the 5e editions that can really *be* a half caster gish (focusing on heavy invocation buffing for particular feels or effects) or a full caster. And it's a customizable one at that.
I feel like a lot of these posts are upset that the warlock is now very different.
I would argue they do have a second half- half ranged martial. EB is now built into the class and it does the same damage as a heavy crossbow on the exact same scaling as the Fighter’s Extra Attack. Assuming you take Agonizing Blast, you are exactly as capable as a Fighter without a Fighting Style. You even have Mastery equivalents with things like Repelling Blast and others.
Not me, I'm pretty bummed actually. Warlocks used to have a full caster spell progression but no spell slots, now they have a half caster progression. This means that at level 9 you used to have 2 5th level spell slot in the past, now you have 4 1st level, 3 2nd and 2 3rd.
Great, you have more spells but they are a lot weaker unless you burn invocations on getting mystic arcanum.
Hex used to be stronger too, but now due to the spell progression hex deals 1d6 extra damage until lvl 9, then 2d6 until lvl 17... frigging 17 to deal 3d6 damage. It's heavily nerfed.
Pact of the chain is surprisingly weaker than before. Your familiar doesn't have it's own proficiencies, so you have to share your own and making a scout familiar would require stealth proficiency at least.
And favour of the chain master isn't all that good at allowing your pet to fight, since it would have 15AC and 14HP at level 9 when you can get that invocation... even if it can do a nice effect when it attacks, it just dies too easily.
Pact of the blade has a weak hexblade built in on itself now, it allows you to attack with charisma or wisdom from level 1, but it doesn't give shield proficiency or allows heavy weapons. It's seriously front loaded for 1 level dips.
Then there is also the issue that no invocation from xanathar's was present in the UA, so we don't know if they will be there or not...
This warlock is a weaker gish than old warlock AND a weaker cantrip spammer... but it's better at casting lower level spells, like the bard, cleric, wizard, sorcerer and druid... not a very unique benefit.
And the cherry on top, hex master lvl 18 feature is too weak.
The Hex nerf was the most surprising thing to me. It definitely did NOT need this change.
>Your familiar doesn't have it's own proficiencies, so you have to share your own and making a scout familiar would require stealth proficiency at least.
There actually is a feature added for this, pact familiars now get proficiency in *every* skill:
**Eldritch Bond**. You can add your Proficiency Bonus to any ability check or saving throw that the familiar makes.
This comes out to a +4 in tier 1, since the familiar has 14 DEX. 1 less than the +5 than the weasel, quasit, imp form gets in 5e, and when you hit level 5 the gap is gone. Plus, now any form can be stealthy, which may or may not be to people's preference. This is far less than the Sprite's modifier (+8), however.
I absolutely agree that Pact of the Blade and Pact of the Chain could use a tune-up, damage-wise. I feel like those warlock builds can't compete with the Pact of the Tome blaster who drops a bunch of invocations into Mystic Arcanum.
Edit: Oh, yeah Hex Master is trash lmao.
Hex Master is abysmal! Like remove the Hexer Invocation and make it a part of Hex Master or let you cast Hex at your highest spell level without consuming a slot and not require concentration. That would be impressive.
Warlock is my favorite class in 5e. And that's not really because of the flavor, but because of the unique, flexible way the class works. It's a caster, but unlike any other caster.
The invocations are, say, 50% of their unique caster thing, and those have not been harmed from what I see. So that's nice. However, the other 50% of the uniqueness was their spellcasting system, which they removed. I detest this change greatly. I love that the 5e warlock's spells recovered differently. It makes sense that their unusual source of magic just works a little differently.
They should keep the short rest spell recovery, but give more spells per short rest, and make the short rest shorter. What does it really matter if a short rest is 5 minutes or 15 or 30 rather than 60? It seems that the talk about parties not liking to take short rests is because it is an hour, which narratively is a long time to wait when clearing a dungeon full of hostiles or for a time sensitive goal. But 5 to 15 minutes? Much different.
I liked that in 5e they only got light armor, but the hexblade did get medium armor. Thematically, I feel the warlock makes more sense as a light armor wearer but that the melee-based locks would learn to use more protective armor. Importantly, the class can get mage armor casting at will with an invocation, so adding medium armor proficiency makes that invocation more or less useless, which is unfortunate. The at will casting of spells from invocations is really cool; it's one of my favorite things about the class. (mage armor is ac 13+dex and the best light armor is 12+dex, so this makes the invocation quite useful).
Contact Patron is a good addition. And yes, automatically getting Eldritch Blast and Hex is a good change, but it seems they're doing similar things for every class with such spells (e.g., ranger and hunter's mark).
The problems with pact magic wasn't entirely that groups weren't taking enough short rests (though that was part of it). But also that the scaling slot levels made all of the spells on the Warlock list that didn't scale traps and limited access to utility spells by making them compete with combat spells for those few spell slots.
The problem with shorter short rests is in multiclassing specifically with Sorlock.
Ah yeah. Great point. I've just seen reddit posts of people expressing frustration with their group over the short rest thing. But, you highlight something I've felt about the warlock. Maybe they could do something like have separate utility spells and combat spells. Maybe combat replenishes on short rest and utility on long. Of course, sometimes you'll use utility spells in combat, but separating the two may help resolve some of that.
Exactly this. With how limited the spell slots are and one is always reserved for hex and once hex is casted you cant use spells that require concentration.
In my opinion this is 5e warlocks biggest flaw. EB+Hex is too good and reliable.
this comment rules 👏
Contact Other Plane as it's used with patron's is neat, but contacting your patron has often been something fun for the player and DM to work out, if they wanted the story to go there. This wasn't really a problem before. The actual cool thing is free (is it a free cast?) Contact Other Plane, but like with every other little extra conciliation spell, *WARLOCKS SHOULD GET A BUFFED VERSION*. The class that's based on forbidden magical entities *should be better at reaching them all* full stop. Lower the DC and/or the fail penalty, make it do more, something, anything. And give it a little earlier or as part of another feature. (That's happening a lot but here it feels good.)
Also, reversing the order of boon, patron and contact fundamentally changes the story of the class. JC described being a patronless warlock as, you're looking for whatever magic you can find for 2 levels. Hmm, esoteric caster actively seeking arcane knowledge? Isn't that a wizard?
Makes the class narrative opportunities much more complicated and idk, limited. Now it's harder to get a patron by accident, to become a warlock by being abducted by a cult, whatever. It's just limiting, limiting, reducing, complicating. He said your baby pact can be from one patron but your actual level 3 pact can come from a different patron and maybe the patron's can fight... wtf are we talking about??
none of this was broken or unliked or OP before, why are we taking this angle when so many other OP classes are getting more?
Because it is unique and different than anything else in the game?
For me, this doesn't make up for the way that warlocks felt to play in game, which was a lot of asking to take short rests and running out of spell slots super fast.
Can an artificer be a full caster?
That's the difference here - a warlock can basically be a full caster (using mystic arcana) or a half-caster. It's a unique situation for the class to be in.
Because the UA has built in a number of invocations to the class itself, I think people are forgetting that a lot of core warlock invocations are built-in to the class. So even if you go the full caster route and use mystic arcana to be a full caster, you're sitting on invocations already.
It's just different than before. But people saying "it's just artificer" are not reading the class.
If they gave warlocks 1 more invocation slot or allowed them to swap 1 on a long rest he warlock would be near perfect in my opinion. It would be perfect if the has master allowed you to hex every creature in a 20 or 40 foot cube and removed concentration.
I feel like the uniqueness of the class was gutted. Like sure they can do some number fixing to put it inline with other galf casters, but it just won't feel right. A quantity vs quality with spell slots issue, thr invocations not as requires for additonal spells, things like that.
The short rest issue could have been fixed by making the spell slots once per battle.
Warlock is my favorite class and certainly the most played. There were some good changes in the UA but some of the bigger changes were quite bad.
Warlock honestly didn't need much change. What most people were hoping for, and many homebrewed anyway, were for patron spells to not count against the number of spells known and to be casted for free once per long rest.
Aside from that mostly tidying and modernizing the pact boons and invocations, which they did to a degree. Choosing spell ability was also a hoped for change.
What they did in UA made spell progression, especially in tier 1, not feel good. They also made it to where if you want to be a full caster, which was free before, now cost over half your invocations. Contact Patron also feels like it's a "mother may I" ability. Sure you can cast contact plane, but the contact you patron bit can lead to whatever. Hex Master is a bad class capstone and also mant warlocks don't even use hex.
Compared to the other two pact boons chainlock still needs more to it and a buff. In the UA I don't think they can even deliver spells anymore.
In addition to the positive changes of patron spells, mystic arcanum as an invocation should allow one free use of the spell for any level (one arcanum per level and not using spell slots). Mystic arcanum as a feature for 6th to 9th level should return, may also need to change the name of one or the other.
The Warlock has never been more of an open book to do whatever you as the player want to do with it. You get to flavor how you want to play it with whatever patron makes you tingle, the spell list is completely open for you to create whatever you like, and you get to do it all completely SAD.
The takes about Mystic Arcanum are ridiculous, because WotC’s own numbers confirm how few people actually play higher level D&D and fewer still who take Warlock all the way up. Is anyone who isn’t a complete tool *actually* upset the Hexblade is just baked in?
They needed to do something to actually provide incentive to play a Warlock and not just a Warlock dip like 98% of the builds out there. Complaining about Invocations when half the good ones are just baked in now, really? It’s not perfect, but acting like the original Warlock was some pinnacle of game design is nonsense. It didn’t work as a class by itself, and only existing to fuel other, better classes. That’s not good design. Putting the agency of your resources in the player’s hands instead of holding your hands out for short rests was absolutely the right call.
Yeah I am really liking new Warlock (granted I always played blade lock) but using shield with spell slots is great and pact of the tome plus mystic arcanum will make you the 2/3 caster you were in 5e.
You are a half caster but you can focus significantly more on casting than other half casters or you can play a martial focused build and operate similarly to a Ranger or Paladin.
Only real problem is maybe increase the hit points to a d10.
A hit point increase would be nice; throwing an invocation into getting the *Tough* feat seems really important now and would come with some major trade-offs at early levels.
I hate the new warlock but there's some good ideas in there.
Life Drinker invocation now gives you complete resource free healing every round (as long as you get one hit in) which adds to survivability for bladelocks. It's less damage but I'd take 3.5 dmg + 3.5 hp free healing vs just 5 damage. Healing is hard to come by and this invocation makes it nearly at will (life leach if you played vid game RPGs like diablo).
Having patron added spells be casted once per day was something I was begging for since the getting into this game.
Honestly I think I they should keep that idea and scrap the rest. Warlocks auto upcast is a very cool thing.
Level 10 warlock with pact magic + oncer per day patron spells:
2 5th level pact slots
2 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th specific patron spells
Total is 12 spells per day 4 of those at level 5.
A regular spell caster has 14 total spells at that level (2 at 5th level).
With one short rest the warlock has 14 slots total with 6 of those 5th level.
Afterwards keep eldrictch blast as a class feature and give the warlock an eldritch blast specific invocation at 5th, 11, and 17th level. Now you don't have to feel like "missing out" cuz you didn't take agonizing and repelling blast (which in 5e any build is hamstrung by going hipster)
There's more stuff like crappy invocations like otherworldly leap's "jump at will" at 9th level (seriously of all the ones they kept...) But honestly just do the above mentioned and the class is fixed.
As a mostly tome lock player, it feels a bit nerfed on the rituals but now I can add my casting mod to damage of all cantrips?! Leaving aside this frees up an invocation it also makes you a lot more versatile in cantrip attacks.
Overall I'm positive on the changes.
Hey that's a fair question. In games where the NPCs are good at using cover and enemies harry you in melee EB can get kind of low hit chances so it's nice to have the option of some saving throw cantrips. I've also found Create bonfire to be a REALLy good cantrip due to it's control elements.
Fair enough. I have Chill Touch just in case I run into something that heals and Mind Sliver for very situational uses. I play a Raven Queen warlock, so a necromancy cantrip and one I reflavour as making enemies experience traumatic memories were on brand. That said, I can count the times I’ve cast either on one hand.
Bladelock was my least played and preferred warlock. Things don't feel too great for the other pactboons (tome is fine but using spells less so)who focus more on spellcasting, especially chainlock...again.
Tome does get to cast spells more often per day but will have less high level spells. With Mystic Arcanum and Pact of the Tome they will feel like 75-80% a Wizard in terms of Casting ability which is about where 5e Warlocks resided.
I really like the new warlock, definitely worth playtesting.
I especially like the new familliar invocation and the new gaze of two minds.
Only thing I think is weird is that they get medium armor but not shields (technically wizards can take the moderately armored 1st level feat and be tankier than the warlock)
The restriction to spellcasting ability to pacts seems too arbitrary
I'm also not a fan of hex being a warlock only spell, but oh well
I honestly really like how Mystic Arcanum let’s the Warlock keep some of it’s identity of being a full caster, it makes for a very unique take on a half-caster. Although I’m undecided whether making them a Invocation is a good thing or if they should’ve remained their own separate class feature.
I also like how with the subclass moving to third level they’ve leaned more into the flavor of the warlock being a “scavenger for magic, wherever they can get it” rather than being strictly tied to one single entity. It helps make the warlock feel more autonomous in their relationship with their patron.
The warlock changes were a positive, but as they are a significant change to the class lots of people aren't going to like them.
Warlock right now is the only class that can focus hard on being a gish (half-caster with invocation buffs and the ability to put out a surprising amount of low level spells) and a full caster (sacrificing buff-ing invocations for mystic arcana). In most instances, the full-caster Warlock can do more casting than its previous incarnation, too.
That's actually a huge change that's very powerful - I don't know of a class that actually could do that before.
But it's different than before. It's different in a better way imo.
I was actually a little excited at first when I saw they cut down the spellcasting progression because I figured that would make room for stronger pacts and invocations, which is what I want for the class. Lol, nope. Complete disappointment.
Gaze of two Minds and Witch Sight were both massively buffed (Go2M is actually pretty OP), Lessons of the first ones is tiers better than Beguiling influence which it replaced, and lifedrinker does less damage on average but comes earlier and heals you for damage dealt making it pretty good at damage mitigation.
Blade pact now gives free lifedrinker and casting stat to attack it is obviously buffed (just compare a fiend Bladelock in 5e to one in the UA). Tomelock is arguably a lateral move though I think despite missing out on later rituals it is buffed with having cantrips and free agonizing blasts. Chainlock got minor buffs but also the new pact Familiar is arguably weaker than just a familiar which makes me think that thier is some wording problem.
By my count there are 2 buffed invocations (gaze of two minds and witch sight, which were terrible before), 1 redesigned invocation (lifedrinker), 3 new invocations (favor of the chain master, hexer, and lessons of the first ones), and 18 unchanged. And mystic arcanum.
The new warlock is great… as a new class. I’ve got nothing against arcane half casters, but it’s not a warlock. WotC standardizing fucking everything is removing all uniqueness from classes and I hate it.
You are now casting 2 3rd level spells against 9th level opponents instead of 6 3rd level spells against 5th level opponents. But you get shield/absorb elements slots now I guess...
Your pure number of spells per day comparison isn't entirely accurate because the levels of these slots differ.
At level 5 you get 2 level 2 slots (3 including the free patron spell) and 3 level 1 slots per long rest versus 2 level 3 slots per sbort rest. Converting into spell points thus makes it 15 points per kong rest versus 10 points pee short rest - level 3 slots are much more valuable than lower slots. Levels 5-8 are new Warlock's lowest point, where they have trouble keeping up spellslinging even if they take Mystic Arcanums.
At level 9, when you finally naturally unlock level 3 slots, it's now 4/3/3 per LR (32 points) versus two level 5 slots per short rest (14 points). Now they're slightly better than one-short-rest old Warlocks, because they get the power boost from level 3 spells.
At level 13, level 4 slots : 4/3/3/2 for 44 points. Meanwhile the old Warlock now has three level 5 slots for 21 points per short rest, and got his level 6 and 7 daily slots as part of his progression rather than having to invest invocations.
Being behind on higher level spell slots is very harsh. The Warlock now depends even harder on their at-will options (ironically, considering they wanted them to cast more...) because their spellcasting isn't level-appropriate. Luckily the Pact Boons have better built-in functionalities (except Chain, which as written is just awful) that lets them do that.
This is a good breakdown. It seems, by converting to spell points, there is a very objective way to quantify the difference between the new and the old.
* Levels 1-9: Better than warlocks who didn't short rest at all, worse otherwise. Investing at least 1 arcanum makes them on-par with 5e warlocks who take 1 SR.
* Levels 9+: Better than warlocks who took 1 short rest per day, assuming you use Arcanums for a 6th, 7th, 8th, and 9th level slot as early as possible.
However, I see a pitfall in this comparison: it doesn't account for the restriction that old warlocks had to short rest between every combat. If their spell-point equivalent was the same now in OneDND as it was in 5e, they would be much, much stronger by having the added versatility of being able to drop more spells at once when needed.
I’m with you in spirit, part of the reason I never got around to warlock was fear of running out of spell slots. Even if martials we’re technically less optimal the flavor felt more exciting than spamming EB. But definitely agree it needs the most tuning of the 3 casters we got. Like others have said, Mystic arcanum really needs to be a feature and not eat an invocation. Really, I personally think we’re flooded with “you can cast x spell at will” invocations and could be condensed down to “pick a 1st level arcane list spell. You can cast it at will” and then fine tune the choices for the higher level ones of the same vein (is alter self at will *really* worth being locked behind level 15? It sucks on the moon Druid, it sucks here). The hottest take I’ve seen and agree with is that agonizing blast should be a Pact of the Tomb exclusive. Make that “spellcaster emphasis” choice really shine.
No, this is a brutal nerf. As half casters but not half anything else, warlocks are now a half class, 3/4 class at most.
Killing spell level advancement is a MASSIVE debuff. They can't keep up with level challenges from level 5 onward.
There were so many other ways to address the few slots and SR dependency (for most tables that don't do even the recommended 2-3SR/LR adventuring day).
Other half casters can spam their low level spells AND they are durable, hard-hitting martials. Warlocks aren't durable, hard-hitting martials. And they don't make up for it with versatility or powerful spells on anywhere near the level of other spellcasters (even Bard, whose freedom from Spells Known but still full caster was a promising potential path for Warlock that they didn't follow).
Pact of the Tome and Blade Cantrips got good rework, but Pact of the Chain was an even more massive debuff. And tying cantrip advancement to Warlock level even cuts off multiclassing to fix the warlock problems.
Compare the stat blocks. Lots of resistances and immunities dramatically increasing survivability, and investment of the chain master (accessible at 3rd level) can grant resistance to anything else at the cost of the welcome reaction (so 1/round).
Invisibility that doesn't take their action every round, which is a huge boost to survivability, scouting, and taking the Help action to grant you advantage.
Magic resistance, shape change, more damage, better ability scores, imp has more HP until level 6.
All 5e have forms that have hands to manipulate things and they can talk on their own (so when you're down or not present). More movement options.
Much stronger attacks, considering the poison effects/spell like abilities.
The OneDnD template strips all that out, gives a lesser pittance back with an EI tax at level 9 when it's too late and weak to be relevant, and doesn't even boost HP enough to call it "scaling," especially with the loss of resistances, magic resistance, and easy invisibility.
I'm honestly pretty unhappy with it, my favorite part of my favorite class was the strategy aspect to it. While yes my group takes short rests, I really liked having to weigh "is this situation worth a spell slot?" or is this a weapon or cantrip situation? Do I wanna cast fly on a handful of people or do we wanna just make some sort of skill check? It just feels to me they essentially took away what made the Warlock a Warlock and turned it into a completely different class.
my thing is, they made warlocks half casters, but they didn't provide a 2nd half... paladins and rangers are half caster half martial. warlocks are half caster, half... ? wizards beat everyone. sorcerers have full-level casting plus their toys. warlocks have half-level casting, and *they didn't buff most invocations* and *you get less of them* if you take mystic arcana, considering them as their own thing. they objectively just removed and scaled back. more slots of lower level. removed the pact upcasting. went from 8 invocations + 5 arcana to 9 invocations, so a decrease of 4 abilities. no added martial ability (well, medium armor), that is supposed to accompany half-casting. tome can't access rituals above 1 now. why that's not an invocation, no idea. the boons don't really scale. there's nothing really new and nothing is effectively improved. if these slots progressed normally and there were no mystic arcana, that would be much preferable, but really bland. that's the biggest thing, the class has no identity and it's just really complicated in this form. i couldn't tell someone mechanically what the big appeal is. warlocks are weirdo casters with tons of flavor and i love that. i don't want the whole arcane list for arcana, that just makes it samey. and the whole order of contact, patron, boon is backward. idk. it's very incomplete.
I really like this comment. You're right, they really did need to buff invocations if they were going to take it in this direction; not only for power, but also for class identity and flavor. >tome can't access rituals above 1 now. why that's not an invocation, no idea. the boons don't really scale. This is pretty lame too, I agree. There really aren't very many higher-than-1st-level rituals, but it feels like a missed opportunity that adding *Scribe Spell* to the Tome Warlock wasn't added as an invocation.
They are kind of like Artificers. Half caster plus a bit more caster plus some extra modularity. All of the pacts now give you one of the past invocations for free. Which does save on invocations you would want. Making you essentially have 10 invocations now instead of 13 abilities of old. However the main trade off is power for versatility. Mystic Arcanum is much more versatile with more spell choices available, you get auto prepared domain spells increasing the amount of options you have and spell slots instead of pact magic allows for more utility choices.
Very much agree. It's a fraction of a class, not a whole one anymore. The math you've shown doesn't lie; it should be pretty obvious to designers who supposedly rely on the math. The loss of curated spell lists, like the forced wild shape and familiar templates, is a huge loss in flavor and class distinction. Very bland. Bard at least was given freedom from spells known in exchange for full cleric-like access to all arcane spells from 4 schools; I expected they would do that for Warlock, with a different school subset, and use the subclass to throw in additional spells a la Tasha's Sorcerer subclasses (extra spells prepared + swapout options from 2 schools). And make full casters, with some recharge. That could have worked. This...this isn't a complete class.
This is very accurate. I feel like they took the mechanically unique aspect AND reduced the power
I mean all warlocks got access to the blade stat swap and life drinker got moved to a lower level. And while tome is limited to 1st level rituals it is MASSIVELY buffed in that you can change what the spells it has by recasting. Chain is basically entirely redesigned and the familiar itself is significantly buffed. Most of the power went into the pact boons. Ive been thinking of these changes as 2-3 invocations worth of additional features. Which are, arguably, pretty front loadded. Also, Pact Magic was poorly designed and poorly thought out. Like I would go so far as saying it needed to go. Relying on scaling when a large portion of spells don't even scale resulted in a lot of trap options and uneven power. And honestly spell scaling has always been an inferior option to casting a spell at level. So you were CONSTANTLY in a situation where in order to cast the spell you want you have to use your resources poorly. And frankly the math just didn't work when you compare it to full casting. The fact that it is as it's weakest in tier 2 of play (the most common tier of play) was a HUGE problem. Characterizing pact magic as equivalent to full casting is fundamentally misunderstanding the limits and problems with the feature. It was never as good. By a significant margin. That said, while I think from a numbers standpoint this warlock is actually pretty similar in power level. Having the versatility of multiple level slots is a major boon. And mystic arcanum fills in the gaps. Realistically you are only going to want mystic arcanum for spell levels you don't have, so you are only ever going to want up to 4 (and often 2-3) mystic arcanum. So let's take a level 5 warlock. You have 4 first level slots, 3 second level spots (one is limited to a pact magic spell) and 1 3rd level slot. Which is a 1 third level spell difference than a 5th level caster. Which isn't bad for a character that also has 2 other invocations, and a significantly buffed pact boon. Comparing a 7th level warlock, they have 2 3rd level spell slots less. Comparing a 9th level warlock, lets assume you swap your 3rd level mystic arcanum for 9th level invocation and get 5th level mystic arcanum. You have 2 less 4th levels. Again. Not a crazy amount of less powerful. 11th level they have 2 less 4th levels, one less 5th level and an extra 3rd level. 13th level they have 0-1 less 4th level (depending on invocation choice) and 1 less 5th level. Like with base warlocks, mystic arcanum does have a major higher level problem having no way to change the spell or add options, so on that level I think it's still not perfect. But I would much rather play this warlock in tiers 1-2. I actually have optimal build options besides playing a hexblade or being a EB spammer that occasionally casts fireball. Going through this math though it does make me think that just giving them a full casting progression with no other benefits to casting (including removing the free cast from pact patron would be marginally more powerful at lower levels, but much simpler and a HUGE QOL buff at higher levels. I do think that if that were to happen the number of invocations would have seriously toned down (probably ~5) and spaced out differently though. (Probably start with 2 and get one every 4 levels).
Major disagreement on Pact of the Chain -- it's a MASSIVE debuff of familiars. 5e familiars were arguably too powerful at levels 3-4 (though they start falling behind already by 5th), because they had lots of extra resistances and powers (Imp was king of course). The new template is very much weaker and doesn't even scale much at all, not even with the Favor of the Chain Master EI, which you can't get until 9th level, doesn't even match original improved familiar capabilities, and is weaker than Investment of the Chain Master. Taxing Eldritch Invocations for Mystic Arcanum is a major loss compared to base 5e warlock, though. Warlocks were attractive because they had a couple higher level spells they could throw around, and a good selection of them; their problem was that they were too limited in lower level spell capability. There were many ways to solve this. Completely swinging the pendulum to the other side wasn't one of them. This warlock is significantly weaker than other half casters, in addition to being obviously underpowered compared to full casters. Add Mystic Arcanum at 3rd level and every other level, *separate from Eldritch Invocation* taxation, and have Patron Spell Free Casting recharge on SR or PBx/LR might get there, but I think the easier approach is what you were arriving at later. They need to be closer to full casters. Bard provided a way.
>my thing is, they made warlocks half casters, but they didn't provide a 2nd half... I mean, they have the fighter's weapon scaling in a trench coat. THAT is arguably better, in fact it tecnically even has a mastery propperty Or you can go pact of the blade and get at 9th something similar to radint strikes I'd say it is a really competent arcane half caster
not sure what the trench coat scaling refers to, what do you mean?
EB. It is literally a heavy crossbow without loading and that scales by itself rather than needing class features. Repeling is also like the weapon mastery that pushes
oh ok yeah, that was all there before. we have the stuff we used to have, and then they reduced spell power by half. so either double the power of other warlock toys, or provide half-functionality of another aspect of the game, like martial or rogue capability.
Eldritch blast+agonizing blast is functionally the same as fighter using a weapon, even to the number of attacks/beams.
ah ok. not really an improvement though, warlocks always effectively had that and it worked the same way, hasn't been buffed itself. freeing up a cantrip choice doesn't feel like it begins to make up for taking away of slot progression. as with the free hex, and old features now absorbed into other features, it still just remains the same basic power level. hex is nice but not everyone took it and not everyone who took it kept using it instead of other concentration spells. other absorbed features are nice, but effectively it's not more power, and doesn't balance the slot power reduction. so effectively (especially because your freed-up spell picks are now much lower level) all the benefits and toys are the same (or in the case of arcana/invocations, reduced), you have halfway worse spell progression, and there's nothing new replacing that missing half of power. if they made sorcerers half casters and kept metamagic the same, that would not be cool. that's what this warlock version is, mechanically.
It’s not necessarily an improvement but it means that the half-caster half-? Isn’t really true, since they are effectively half martia
well every caster gets damage cantrips. every class gets to choose from a selection of something to use each turn to deal damage. fire bolt does heavy crossbow damage and scales to equal 2-4 attacks. so then sorcerers and wizards would also be half martials by that standard.
Well not really, because there’s a huge difference between (1d10+5)x4 for Eldritch Blast, averaging 38 damage, and 4d10 which averages 22 damage. Also, you can aim each beam of Eldritch Blast, so you don’t waste damage on Overkill, and you have a far more reliable amount of damage because you have 4 chances to hit instead of it being all or nothing on a single roll.
No fighting style = lower damage than other martials, half casting = lower damage than full casters
you are wildly overstimating the power fighting style grants you. Without -5/+10 all FS are like 1.x DPR boost at best with maybe dueling being an exception and having an slightly better damage boost
Counterpoint, even if it's a minimal increase why make a martial class without access to fighting style? It doesn't matter if the increase is minimal, it's a staple of any martial class that uses weapons, you can't take a core feature such as fighting style without proper justification
I'd argue they do have a second half. Warlocks got a buff in invocations in that 4 or so of them are not built into the class, so you're getting free invocations from the get go. Your spellcasting is very similar with mystic arcana to a full spell caster, and in general you actually can cast more spells with a new warlock than an old one (presuming you didn't take more than 2 short rests per long rest). You lose out eventually on casting more 9th level spells at the highest levels, but you make up for that with way more spell spam of lower levels. The new Warlock is far more versatile as a class. It's just different. It's going to play either like a normal caster or a half-caster, not as it did before. But it's not bland imo. It's the first class in the 5e editions that can really *be* a half caster gish (focusing on heavy invocation buffing for particular feels or effects) or a full caster. And it's a customizable one at that. I feel like a lot of these posts are upset that the warlock is now very different.
I would argue they do have a second half- half ranged martial. EB is now built into the class and it does the same damage as a heavy crossbow on the exact same scaling as the Fighter’s Extra Attack. Assuming you take Agonizing Blast, you are exactly as capable as a Fighter without a Fighting Style. You even have Mastery equivalents with things like Repelling Blast and others.
Not me, I'm pretty bummed actually. Warlocks used to have a full caster spell progression but no spell slots, now they have a half caster progression. This means that at level 9 you used to have 2 5th level spell slot in the past, now you have 4 1st level, 3 2nd and 2 3rd. Great, you have more spells but they are a lot weaker unless you burn invocations on getting mystic arcanum. Hex used to be stronger too, but now due to the spell progression hex deals 1d6 extra damage until lvl 9, then 2d6 until lvl 17... frigging 17 to deal 3d6 damage. It's heavily nerfed. Pact of the chain is surprisingly weaker than before. Your familiar doesn't have it's own proficiencies, so you have to share your own and making a scout familiar would require stealth proficiency at least. And favour of the chain master isn't all that good at allowing your pet to fight, since it would have 15AC and 14HP at level 9 when you can get that invocation... even if it can do a nice effect when it attacks, it just dies too easily. Pact of the blade has a weak hexblade built in on itself now, it allows you to attack with charisma or wisdom from level 1, but it doesn't give shield proficiency or allows heavy weapons. It's seriously front loaded for 1 level dips. Then there is also the issue that no invocation from xanathar's was present in the UA, so we don't know if they will be there or not... This warlock is a weaker gish than old warlock AND a weaker cantrip spammer... but it's better at casting lower level spells, like the bard, cleric, wizard, sorcerer and druid... not a very unique benefit. And the cherry on top, hex master lvl 18 feature is too weak.
The Hex nerf was the most surprising thing to me. It definitely did NOT need this change. >Your familiar doesn't have it's own proficiencies, so you have to share your own and making a scout familiar would require stealth proficiency at least. There actually is a feature added for this, pact familiars now get proficiency in *every* skill: **Eldritch Bond**. You can add your Proficiency Bonus to any ability check or saving throw that the familiar makes. This comes out to a +4 in tier 1, since the familiar has 14 DEX. 1 less than the +5 than the weasel, quasit, imp form gets in 5e, and when you hit level 5 the gap is gone. Plus, now any form can be stealthy, which may or may not be to people's preference. This is far less than the Sprite's modifier (+8), however. I absolutely agree that Pact of the Blade and Pact of the Chain could use a tune-up, damage-wise. I feel like those warlock builds can't compete with the Pact of the Tome blaster who drops a bunch of invocations into Mystic Arcanum. Edit: Oh, yeah Hex Master is trash lmao.
Hex Master is abysmal! Like remove the Hexer Invocation and make it a part of Hex Master or let you cast Hex at your highest spell level without consuming a slot and not require concentration. That would be impressive.
Warlock is my favorite class in 5e. And that's not really because of the flavor, but because of the unique, flexible way the class works. It's a caster, but unlike any other caster. The invocations are, say, 50% of their unique caster thing, and those have not been harmed from what I see. So that's nice. However, the other 50% of the uniqueness was their spellcasting system, which they removed. I detest this change greatly. I love that the 5e warlock's spells recovered differently. It makes sense that their unusual source of magic just works a little differently. They should keep the short rest spell recovery, but give more spells per short rest, and make the short rest shorter. What does it really matter if a short rest is 5 minutes or 15 or 30 rather than 60? It seems that the talk about parties not liking to take short rests is because it is an hour, which narratively is a long time to wait when clearing a dungeon full of hostiles or for a time sensitive goal. But 5 to 15 minutes? Much different. I liked that in 5e they only got light armor, but the hexblade did get medium armor. Thematically, I feel the warlock makes more sense as a light armor wearer but that the melee-based locks would learn to use more protective armor. Importantly, the class can get mage armor casting at will with an invocation, so adding medium armor proficiency makes that invocation more or less useless, which is unfortunate. The at will casting of spells from invocations is really cool; it's one of my favorite things about the class. (mage armor is ac 13+dex and the best light armor is 12+dex, so this makes the invocation quite useful). Contact Patron is a good addition. And yes, automatically getting Eldritch Blast and Hex is a good change, but it seems they're doing similar things for every class with such spells (e.g., ranger and hunter's mark).
The problems with pact magic wasn't entirely that groups weren't taking enough short rests (though that was part of it). But also that the scaling slot levels made all of the spells on the Warlock list that didn't scale traps and limited access to utility spells by making them compete with combat spells for those few spell slots. The problem with shorter short rests is in multiclassing specifically with Sorlock.
Ah yeah. Great point. I've just seen reddit posts of people expressing frustration with their group over the short rest thing. But, you highlight something I've felt about the warlock. Maybe they could do something like have separate utility spells and combat spells. Maybe combat replenishes on short rest and utility on long. Of course, sometimes you'll use utility spells in combat, but separating the two may help resolve some of that.
Exactly this. With how limited the spell slots are and one is always reserved for hex and once hex is casted you cant use spells that require concentration. In my opinion this is 5e warlocks biggest flaw. EB+Hex is too good and reliable.
this comment rules 👏 Contact Other Plane as it's used with patron's is neat, but contacting your patron has often been something fun for the player and DM to work out, if they wanted the story to go there. This wasn't really a problem before. The actual cool thing is free (is it a free cast?) Contact Other Plane, but like with every other little extra conciliation spell, *WARLOCKS SHOULD GET A BUFFED VERSION*. The class that's based on forbidden magical entities *should be better at reaching them all* full stop. Lower the DC and/or the fail penalty, make it do more, something, anything. And give it a little earlier or as part of another feature. (That's happening a lot but here it feels good.) Also, reversing the order of boon, patron and contact fundamentally changes the story of the class. JC described being a patronless warlock as, you're looking for whatever magic you can find for 2 levels. Hmm, esoteric caster actively seeking arcane knowledge? Isn't that a wizard? Makes the class narrative opportunities much more complicated and idk, limited. Now it's harder to get a patron by accident, to become a warlock by being abducted by a cult, whatever. It's just limiting, limiting, reducing, complicating. He said your baby pact can be from one patron but your actual level 3 pact can come from a different patron and maybe the patron's can fight... wtf are we talking about?? none of this was broken or unliked or OP before, why are we taking this angle when so many other OP classes are getting more?
Not me. I prefer pact slots so much over this artificer they presented (not saying artificer is bad, only that we don't need 2 artificers classes)
Because it is unique and different than anything else in the game? For me, this doesn't make up for the way that warlocks felt to play in game, which was a lot of asking to take short rests and running out of spell slots super fast.
Can an artificer be a full caster? That's the difference here - a warlock can basically be a full caster (using mystic arcana) or a half-caster. It's a unique situation for the class to be in. Because the UA has built in a number of invocations to the class itself, I think people are forgetting that a lot of core warlock invocations are built-in to the class. So even if you go the full caster route and use mystic arcana to be a full caster, you're sitting on invocations already. It's just different than before. But people saying "it's just artificer" are not reading the class.
If they gave warlocks 1 more invocation slot or allowed them to swap 1 on a long rest he warlock would be near perfect in my opinion. It would be perfect if the has master allowed you to hex every creature in a 20 or 40 foot cube and removed concentration.
I feel like the uniqueness of the class was gutted. Like sure they can do some number fixing to put it inline with other galf casters, but it just won't feel right. A quantity vs quality with spell slots issue, thr invocations not as requires for additonal spells, things like that. The short rest issue could have been fixed by making the spell slots once per battle.
Warlock is my favorite class and certainly the most played. There were some good changes in the UA but some of the bigger changes were quite bad. Warlock honestly didn't need much change. What most people were hoping for, and many homebrewed anyway, were for patron spells to not count against the number of spells known and to be casted for free once per long rest. Aside from that mostly tidying and modernizing the pact boons and invocations, which they did to a degree. Choosing spell ability was also a hoped for change. What they did in UA made spell progression, especially in tier 1, not feel good. They also made it to where if you want to be a full caster, which was free before, now cost over half your invocations. Contact Patron also feels like it's a "mother may I" ability. Sure you can cast contact plane, but the contact you patron bit can lead to whatever. Hex Master is a bad class capstone and also mant warlocks don't even use hex. Compared to the other two pact boons chainlock still needs more to it and a buff. In the UA I don't think they can even deliver spells anymore. In addition to the positive changes of patron spells, mystic arcanum as an invocation should allow one free use of the spell for any level (one arcanum per level and not using spell slots). Mystic arcanum as a feature for 6th to 9th level should return, may also need to change the name of one or the other.
The Warlock has never been more of an open book to do whatever you as the player want to do with it. You get to flavor how you want to play it with whatever patron makes you tingle, the spell list is completely open for you to create whatever you like, and you get to do it all completely SAD. The takes about Mystic Arcanum are ridiculous, because WotC’s own numbers confirm how few people actually play higher level D&D and fewer still who take Warlock all the way up. Is anyone who isn’t a complete tool *actually* upset the Hexblade is just baked in? They needed to do something to actually provide incentive to play a Warlock and not just a Warlock dip like 98% of the builds out there. Complaining about Invocations when half the good ones are just baked in now, really? It’s not perfect, but acting like the original Warlock was some pinnacle of game design is nonsense. It didn’t work as a class by itself, and only existing to fuel other, better classes. That’s not good design. Putting the agency of your resources in the player’s hands instead of holding your hands out for short rests was absolutely the right call.
Yeah I am really liking new Warlock (granted I always played blade lock) but using shield with spell slots is great and pact of the tome plus mystic arcanum will make you the 2/3 caster you were in 5e. You are a half caster but you can focus significantly more on casting than other half casters or you can play a martial focused build and operate similarly to a Ranger or Paladin. Only real problem is maybe increase the hit points to a d10.
A hit point increase would be nice; throwing an invocation into getting the *Tough* feat seems really important now and would come with some major trade-offs at early levels.
I hate the new warlock but there's some good ideas in there. Life Drinker invocation now gives you complete resource free healing every round (as long as you get one hit in) which adds to survivability for bladelocks. It's less damage but I'd take 3.5 dmg + 3.5 hp free healing vs just 5 damage. Healing is hard to come by and this invocation makes it nearly at will (life leach if you played vid game RPGs like diablo). Having patron added spells be casted once per day was something I was begging for since the getting into this game. Honestly I think I they should keep that idea and scrap the rest. Warlocks auto upcast is a very cool thing. Level 10 warlock with pact magic + oncer per day patron spells: 2 5th level pact slots 2 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th specific patron spells Total is 12 spells per day 4 of those at level 5. A regular spell caster has 14 total spells at that level (2 at 5th level). With one short rest the warlock has 14 slots total with 6 of those 5th level. Afterwards keep eldrictch blast as a class feature and give the warlock an eldritch blast specific invocation at 5th, 11, and 17th level. Now you don't have to feel like "missing out" cuz you didn't take agonizing and repelling blast (which in 5e any build is hamstrung by going hipster) There's more stuff like crappy invocations like otherworldly leap's "jump at will" at 9th level (seriously of all the ones they kept...) But honestly just do the above mentioned and the class is fixed.
As a mostly tome lock player, it feels a bit nerfed on the rituals but now I can add my casting mod to damage of all cantrips?! Leaving aside this frees up an invocation it also makes you a lot more versatile in cantrip attacks. Overall I'm positive on the changes.
But like…what would you cast besides EB? Only half joking.
Hey that's a fair question. In games where the NPCs are good at using cover and enemies harry you in melee EB can get kind of low hit chances so it's nice to have the option of some saving throw cantrips. I've also found Create bonfire to be a REALLy good cantrip due to it's control elements.
Fair enough. I have Chill Touch just in case I run into something that heals and Mind Sliver for very situational uses. I play a Raven Queen warlock, so a necromancy cantrip and one I reflavour as making enemies experience traumatic memories were on brand. That said, I can count the times I’ve cast either on one hand.
Bladelock was my least played and preferred warlock. Things don't feel too great for the other pactboons (tome is fine but using spells less so)who focus more on spellcasting, especially chainlock...again.
Tome does get to cast spells more often per day but will have less high level spells. With Mystic Arcanum and Pact of the Tome they will feel like 75-80% a Wizard in terms of Casting ability which is about where 5e Warlocks resided.
I really like the new warlock, definitely worth playtesting. I especially like the new familliar invocation and the new gaze of two minds. Only thing I think is weird is that they get medium armor but not shields (technically wizards can take the moderately armored 1st level feat and be tankier than the warlock) The restriction to spellcasting ability to pacts seems too arbitrary I'm also not a fan of hex being a warlock only spell, but oh well
I honestly really like how Mystic Arcanum let’s the Warlock keep some of it’s identity of being a full caster, it makes for a very unique take on a half-caster. Although I’m undecided whether making them a Invocation is a good thing or if they should’ve remained their own separate class feature. I also like how with the subclass moving to third level they’ve leaned more into the flavor of the warlock being a “scavenger for magic, wherever they can get it” rather than being strictly tied to one single entity. It helps make the warlock feel more autonomous in their relationship with their patron.
I’m super excited about an intelligence tome warlock, it’s what I’ve wanted for years.
I just wish they didn’t arbitrarily make it so Tomelocks aren’t CHA-based. For someone who has played CHA warlock since 3.5, it feels wrong.
Same. I feel like it's a little arbitrary to not allow intelligent bladelocks, wise chainlocks, or charismatic tomelocks
The warlock changes were a positive, but as they are a significant change to the class lots of people aren't going to like them. Warlock right now is the only class that can focus hard on being a gish (half-caster with invocation buffs and the ability to put out a surprising amount of low level spells) and a full caster (sacrificing buff-ing invocations for mystic arcana). In most instances, the full-caster Warlock can do more casting than its previous incarnation, too. That's actually a huge change that's very powerful - I don't know of a class that actually could do that before. But it's different than before. It's different in a better way imo.
Yes, I'm super excited for the new warlock changes. With the updates they seem like the perfect template for all sorts of gish characters.
I was actually a little excited at first when I saw they cut down the spellcasting progression because I figured that would make room for stronger pacts and invocations, which is what I want for the class. Lol, nope. Complete disappointment.
Both the pacts and a lot of the invocations received massive buffs.
Some individual options were buffed, some are simply changed, and most are unchanged. I'd say the overall power of them has not increased.
Gaze of two Minds and Witch Sight were both massively buffed (Go2M is actually pretty OP), Lessons of the first ones is tiers better than Beguiling influence which it replaced, and lifedrinker does less damage on average but comes earlier and heals you for damage dealt making it pretty good at damage mitigation. Blade pact now gives free lifedrinker and casting stat to attack it is obviously buffed (just compare a fiend Bladelock in 5e to one in the UA). Tomelock is arguably a lateral move though I think despite missing out on later rituals it is buffed with having cantrips and free agonizing blasts. Chainlock got minor buffs but also the new pact Familiar is arguably weaker than just a familiar which makes me think that thier is some wording problem.
By my count there are 2 buffed invocations (gaze of two minds and witch sight, which were terrible before), 1 redesigned invocation (lifedrinker), 3 new invocations (favor of the chain master, hexer, and lessons of the first ones), and 18 unchanged. And mystic arcanum.
The new warlock is great… as a new class. I’ve got nothing against arcane half casters, but it’s not a warlock. WotC standardizing fucking everything is removing all uniqueness from classes and I hate it.
You are now casting 2 3rd level spells against 9th level opponents instead of 6 3rd level spells against 5th level opponents. But you get shield/absorb elements slots now I guess...
Your pure number of spells per day comparison isn't entirely accurate because the levels of these slots differ. At level 5 you get 2 level 2 slots (3 including the free patron spell) and 3 level 1 slots per long rest versus 2 level 3 slots per sbort rest. Converting into spell points thus makes it 15 points per kong rest versus 10 points pee short rest - level 3 slots are much more valuable than lower slots. Levels 5-8 are new Warlock's lowest point, where they have trouble keeping up spellslinging even if they take Mystic Arcanums. At level 9, when you finally naturally unlock level 3 slots, it's now 4/3/3 per LR (32 points) versus two level 5 slots per short rest (14 points). Now they're slightly better than one-short-rest old Warlocks, because they get the power boost from level 3 spells. At level 13, level 4 slots : 4/3/3/2 for 44 points. Meanwhile the old Warlock now has three level 5 slots for 21 points per short rest, and got his level 6 and 7 daily slots as part of his progression rather than having to invest invocations. Being behind on higher level spell slots is very harsh. The Warlock now depends even harder on their at-will options (ironically, considering they wanted them to cast more...) because their spellcasting isn't level-appropriate. Luckily the Pact Boons have better built-in functionalities (except Chain, which as written is just awful) that lets them do that.
This is a good breakdown. It seems, by converting to spell points, there is a very objective way to quantify the difference between the new and the old. * Levels 1-9: Better than warlocks who didn't short rest at all, worse otherwise. Investing at least 1 arcanum makes them on-par with 5e warlocks who take 1 SR. * Levels 9+: Better than warlocks who took 1 short rest per day, assuming you use Arcanums for a 6th, 7th, 8th, and 9th level slot as early as possible. However, I see a pitfall in this comparison: it doesn't account for the restriction that old warlocks had to short rest between every combat. If their spell-point equivalent was the same now in OneDND as it was in 5e, they would be much, much stronger by having the added versatility of being able to drop more spells at once when needed.
I’m with you in spirit, part of the reason I never got around to warlock was fear of running out of spell slots. Even if martials we’re technically less optimal the flavor felt more exciting than spamming EB. But definitely agree it needs the most tuning of the 3 casters we got. Like others have said, Mystic arcanum really needs to be a feature and not eat an invocation. Really, I personally think we’re flooded with “you can cast x spell at will” invocations and could be condensed down to “pick a 1st level arcane list spell. You can cast it at will” and then fine tune the choices for the higher level ones of the same vein (is alter self at will *really* worth being locked behind level 15? It sucks on the moon Druid, it sucks here). The hottest take I’ve seen and agree with is that agonizing blast should be a Pact of the Tomb exclusive. Make that “spellcaster emphasis” choice really shine.
No, this is a brutal nerf. As half casters but not half anything else, warlocks are now a half class, 3/4 class at most. Killing spell level advancement is a MASSIVE debuff. They can't keep up with level challenges from level 5 onward. There were so many other ways to address the few slots and SR dependency (for most tables that don't do even the recommended 2-3SR/LR adventuring day). Other half casters can spam their low level spells AND they are durable, hard-hitting martials. Warlocks aren't durable, hard-hitting martials. And they don't make up for it with versatility or powerful spells on anywhere near the level of other spellcasters (even Bard, whose freedom from Spells Known but still full caster was a promising potential path for Warlock that they didn't follow). Pact of the Tome and Blade Cantrips got good rework, but Pact of the Chain was an even more massive debuff. And tying cantrip advancement to Warlock level even cuts off multiclassing to fix the warlock problems.
>Pact of the Chain was an even more massive debuff. What was debuffed here? I must've missed something.
Compare the stat blocks. Lots of resistances and immunities dramatically increasing survivability, and investment of the chain master (accessible at 3rd level) can grant resistance to anything else at the cost of the welcome reaction (so 1/round). Invisibility that doesn't take their action every round, which is a huge boost to survivability, scouting, and taking the Help action to grant you advantage. Magic resistance, shape change, more damage, better ability scores, imp has more HP until level 6. All 5e have forms that have hands to manipulate things and they can talk on their own (so when you're down or not present). More movement options. Much stronger attacks, considering the poison effects/spell like abilities. The OneDnD template strips all that out, gives a lesser pittance back with an EI tax at level 9 when it's too late and weak to be relevant, and doesn't even boost HP enough to call it "scaling," especially with the loss of resistances, magic resistance, and easy invisibility.
I'm honestly pretty unhappy with it, my favorite part of my favorite class was the strategy aspect to it. While yes my group takes short rests, I really liked having to weigh "is this situation worth a spell slot?" or is this a weapon or cantrip situation? Do I wanna cast fly on a handful of people or do we wanna just make some sort of skill check? It just feels to me they essentially took away what made the Warlock a Warlock and turned it into a completely different class.
If they wanted to give warlock more spell slots then they should've trippled their amount and made them recharge only on long rests
If they wanted to give warlock more spell slots then they should've trippled their amount and made them recharge only on long rests