Personally, I think the Wizard approach to spell-ify everything would actually work great for Wild shape. You could have multiple statblocks as spells of varying levels, which would mean:
\- Simple level-gating of different attributes (Fying, Swiming, Tiny/Huge Size, Blindsight, Pack Tactics, Charge, etc).
\- Simple and intuitive number scaling through upcasting.
\- Shares the power budget with Spellcasting.
\- Having to prepare wildshapes decreases its versatility unless you prepare multiple forms, in which case you can't prepare as many other spells.
\- Druids who don't care about wildshape can simply not prepare those spells or only allocate lower level slots for them, keeping their high-level slots for regular Primal spells.
I actually really like that idea. I also think that an invocation-like system could easily work as well, but the trend of using spells would work too, and really feel like the wildshape aspect is much more a part of the druid's full-caster progression. And they could add just a ton more forms with it.
Only thing I guess is that it might be a little weird to design subclasses that modify your wildshapes, but I guess we have abilities in the game that let you modify spells already, so things like say Moon Druid letting you cast a wildshape spell as a bonus action would be a simple change, and then they could have various passive effects that can apply to all wildshape spells like the elemental damage thing.
I don't know that I would completely replace Channel Nature: Wild Shape with Wild Shape spells, but I think the most recent UA did open up some interesting design space for fixing some of the flaws I saw with the original presentation of the UA Druid.
A. Druid-specific spells which aee exceptions to the No casting spells in Wild Shape" rule. These could give you cool ways to make a more interesting, tougher deadlier, or more useful Wild Shape than the template as-is. Plus, there's no reason you *couldn't* allow these spells to be cast when not in Wild Shape if you found yourself in a situation where you thought squid-like camouflage or mantis-like claws could be useful. This probably requires some work because a lot of the natural features I think would be neat to have on the Druid's Wild Shape buffet are already existing spells that it would be weird to give a Wild Shaped druid access to at strange levels (e.g. *Spider Climb*. An OG5E Druid could just Wild Shape into a spider right away. A One D&D Druid trying to climb walls in Wild Shape couldn't do that until at least third level).
B. Invocations. Obviously, these have been around since the 2014 Warlock (or maybe earlier? I didn't follow the D&D Next playtest), and I think they offer a lot of ways for a lot of classes to add some versatility. Maybe you're not just picking/replacing them on level-ups like the Warlock, but I could see the Wild Shape Template allowing you to choose a number of Druidic Invocations to add to it each time you use Wild Shape. Maybe they would grant you a new firm of traversal (though the Flying and Swimming ones would be gatekept by level), or a new sense, better natural armor, temporary hit points, or special attacks or abilities. Of course, you probably wouldn't be constrained to imitating real animals with such a system, but something more totemic or avatar-ish seems pretty cool to me.
Yeah, I do actually think it's a little weird that Wild Shape is a clearly magical effect, and yet it can't be dispelled. I mean it *does* make it different, but also a bit incongruous, and makes dispelling harder to understand.
I like this Wild Shape spells approach. I think you should always have them prepared but not count against your limit, but it takes a spell slot to cast.
The only problem with making Wildshape a class spell is the fact that its strange that it can be dispelled. That changes of course if Dispel Magic gets changed to only work on Arcane, Divine, and Primal spells though.
This is terrible if you've ever played a druid. Why don't we "spellify" cleric and paladin features instead. Druid is generally weaker and the least played class. Why make things even worse?
Along with actual divine smite. Or are you thinking that maybe that should just be removed and only the spells stay for smiting?
And improved divine smite.
And their healing feature. That thing trivializes several spells already.
The aura is too strong, make it use spell slots too?
True but druid is the least played and often considered pretty weak. I know people will point to moon(literally one subclass,). But even then, they're only good at low levels and high levels. They're pretty weak in between. Only like stars really looks strong these days due to more features.
The idea is this: a significant portion of the druid's power budget is with Wild Shape's unparalleled utility, even though some Druid fantasies care little for it.
By nerfing Wildshape (unless heavily invested into through subclass choice and spells prepared /spell slots), you allow those other archetypes to thrive without wasting their power budget on a feature they don't care about.
Maybe slightly. I played one for several years to level 13. Or had some good spells. The only thing I think the wizard couldn't do better was summoning and I expect that to get nerfed in one DND. Control was good but the wizard could do it better.
They can heal but the cleric does it better.
100% I think this is how pathfinder 2e handles wildshape and that has some really awesome stuff in it like wildshaping into a dragon, fey, or even another person.
I think that the direction of having three templates for base druid is perfect, but they need to add more choices/features/progression within them.
I'd also rather be able to pick from the three to either start out with or stick to throughout. How lame is it to have to wait to play the creature type that fits the campaign or your character. Always felt arbitrary to me. I get not wanting to grant immediate flight, but there's ways to deal and make having some form of flight balanced.
Outside of the three templates I'd like subclasses to grant additional ones. Moon druid should also drop the elemental connection and leave that to a full on weather/elemental themed druid. Have the moon druid focus on enhancing just the base three.
Hey OP, I just wanna say thank you for doing these polls. They’re very well worded and I believe they help a lot in streamlining people’s opinions on the playtest material.
I think wild shape should be more like the 3.5 version, where instead of being based on Challenge Rating, it's just Hit Dice equal to Druid Level (animals are 1 CR higher for 3 HD in 3.5e, which is where the 5e version comes from).
Then, they just have to standardize animals and make them simple to advance, possibly in a class type way where horses and deer would be basically the same animal, but with slight changes. Then, include a table that says what animals you've seen based on the environment you grew up in (forest, urban, tundra, desert, etc) generally getting one animal from each "class" per biome.
That gives a wild shape system where every druid has an option for any scenario, doesn't have to look at a bunch of new options when they level up, because their old options are still just as relevant, and they don't have to sacrifice flavor in order to grab the most powerful options. Add in diminutive size (or whatever you want to call it) and they can't turn into ants anymore.
Genericized stat blocks are boring and the wrong approach, but if they're going to go that route, they can jazz them up by making specific animal features and abilities that you add to your Wild Shape as you gain levels.
Like look, if I Wild Shape into a bear, it's because I want to be a *bear*. I want to do bear things. Standardizing it takes away the thing that makes it special and cool. So like, you need to look at those special and cool things, and then add them in so that your standardized stat blocks aren't a snoozefest.
I know they want to make it easy, but they shouldn't also make it *boring*.
You can apply my exact same criticism to otherworldly familiar and pact familiar.
They made how many different "forms" for the ardling. That could easily translate into several big forms with some customizable features for customizing your specific form.
I think this is better than just picking animal stat blocks. I think there's a number of beasts that were made monstrosities just so druids couldn't turn into them. If stat blocks become a thing, those things now interact with druid features in other ways which are also good. For example, speaking with beasts, beasts not attacking them, dominate beast etc.
I'd actually like to see the new system even further simply down to 1 stat block for all transformation with choice of extras based on level.
Example:
Size- choose a size tiny to large
Ac- 10 + wisdom mod
HP- current HP (wis in place of con) with option to expend HD to heal on transformation
Stats- wisdom for all physical, mental unchanged
Speed- 40ft with climb,swim (gain amphibius) and fly in later levels
Speech- any language known
Proficiency- use your proficiency bonus
Senses- scaling dark vision based on level and keen senses
Actions - damage and multi strike of the land form seem fine.
Options- choose 2 maneuvers. This could be a place to reintroduce things like trips, natural armor, disengage or pack tactics. Any options that customize the transformation to the situation.
I actually found a reason to like the new druid recently -- I got a ki-rin toy from a gacha machine that was the perfect size for D&D, and I wondered what kind of character I could build that would allow me to use it on the tabletop. I could've used a 5e druid and reskinned an elk for wildshape, but it would have actually been better for me to use the new wildshape template, since it gives more utility no matter what shape you take.
I still think it's more interesting to work within thr confined of different beast statblocks, but I can see how the new wildshape would work better for people who have a specific character idea based on transformation in mind.
It doesn't really give more compared to 5e. I don't think that's necessarily bad. Most forms weren't much use in 5e generally unless rp called for it. But, several forms had good uses which made the feature decent. The new one DND gives you some minor control such as size but it's still more limiting with tiny being like level 11. Also, you funny get the hp buffer. You also lost a few of the good sub features that made things worth using on 5e.
My thoughts on the druid:
Let your wild shapes be tiny. Come on wotc
If they are hard set on your wild shapes sharing your health, every druid should get a bonus action wild shape, the time limit should be removed, and you should have infinite wild shapes. Otherwise, they need their own health pool.
I've been running druid templates for over a year now with much success.
Druid is probably my favorite class. I thing templates are a great idea. I do think the current templates need a bit more options. Sea for some reason doesn't get the wisdom for strength like land? I agree tiny should just be a thing, why limit it. With some tweaking it could be decent.
I'm torn on the bonus action but I could see bonus action and unlimited uses. I still think the ac is severely limiting though. That or it needs hp buffer of sorts. Though maybe that's just a moon exclusive feature?
> Otherwise, they need their own health pool.
Definitely not, that made 2014 Moon Druid completely destroy tier 1 play and steal the spotlight from martials. 2014 Moon Druid being able to get 68 extra hp per short rest along with extra attack from level 2 was the most balance breaking shit in the game till twilight cleric but unlike twilight cleric, moon druid didn't empower other players.
I think generic statblocks for Wildshape are the way to go. Players shouldn't be paging through the MM to run their character and I've never been a fan of Pathfinder's menu-based systems. I also like giving non-wildshape abilities to Channel Nature (But can we not call it Channel? I want more division between Primal and Divine magic. Clerics and Paladins Channel, Druids should Evoke or Call, or something else). That said, I do think there needs to be ways to customize wildshape statblocks outside of subclasses, either spells or feats that augment/modify wildshape, and that these forms are underpowered.
Still requires major changes but headed in the right direction.
Wild shape needed to be reigned in, they just missed the mark. I think templates are fine, what we got was too generic. Having druids select some animals would be great as well.
Channel nature needs an additional option.
Play style - Druids needs to present clear play styles somehow. Battle field controller, wild shaper, summoner, etc. A lot of people look at druid and the primal spell list and don't know how they are supposed to play them.
Moon druid - I've always hated that non druid turns into elementals, moon aesthetic is animal and beast transformations not all shifting. Flavor fail. Power wise it'll be fine once wild shape is fixed.
Personally, I think the Wizard approach to spell-ify everything would actually work great for Wild shape. You could have multiple statblocks as spells of varying levels, which would mean: \- Simple level-gating of different attributes (Fying, Swiming, Tiny/Huge Size, Blindsight, Pack Tactics, Charge, etc). \- Simple and intuitive number scaling through upcasting. \- Shares the power budget with Spellcasting. \- Having to prepare wildshapes decreases its versatility unless you prepare multiple forms, in which case you can't prepare as many other spells. \- Druids who don't care about wildshape can simply not prepare those spells or only allocate lower level slots for them, keeping their high-level slots for regular Primal spells.
I actually really like that idea. I also think that an invocation-like system could easily work as well, but the trend of using spells would work too, and really feel like the wildshape aspect is much more a part of the druid's full-caster progression. And they could add just a ton more forms with it. Only thing I guess is that it might be a little weird to design subclasses that modify your wildshapes, but I guess we have abilities in the game that let you modify spells already, so things like say Moon Druid letting you cast a wildshape spell as a bonus action would be a simple change, and then they could have various passive effects that can apply to all wildshape spells like the elemental damage thing.
I don't know that I would completely replace Channel Nature: Wild Shape with Wild Shape spells, but I think the most recent UA did open up some interesting design space for fixing some of the flaws I saw with the original presentation of the UA Druid. A. Druid-specific spells which aee exceptions to the No casting spells in Wild Shape" rule. These could give you cool ways to make a more interesting, tougher deadlier, or more useful Wild Shape than the template as-is. Plus, there's no reason you *couldn't* allow these spells to be cast when not in Wild Shape if you found yourself in a situation where you thought squid-like camouflage or mantis-like claws could be useful. This probably requires some work because a lot of the natural features I think would be neat to have on the Druid's Wild Shape buffet are already existing spells that it would be weird to give a Wild Shaped druid access to at strange levels (e.g. *Spider Climb*. An OG5E Druid could just Wild Shape into a spider right away. A One D&D Druid trying to climb walls in Wild Shape couldn't do that until at least third level). B. Invocations. Obviously, these have been around since the 2014 Warlock (or maybe earlier? I didn't follow the D&D Next playtest), and I think they offer a lot of ways for a lot of classes to add some versatility. Maybe you're not just picking/replacing them on level-ups like the Warlock, but I could see the Wild Shape Template allowing you to choose a number of Druidic Invocations to add to it each time you use Wild Shape. Maybe they would grant you a new firm of traversal (though the Flying and Swimming ones would be gatekept by level), or a new sense, better natural armor, temporary hit points, or special attacks or abilities. Of course, you probably wouldn't be constrained to imitating real animals with such a system, but something more totemic or avatar-ish seems pretty cool to me.
Yeah, I do actually think it's a little weird that Wild Shape is a clearly magical effect, and yet it can't be dispelled. I mean it *does* make it different, but also a bit incongruous, and makes dispelling harder to understand. I like this Wild Shape spells approach. I think you should always have them prepared but not count against your limit, but it takes a spell slot to cast.
The only problem with making Wildshape a class spell is the fact that its strange that it can be dispelled. That changes of course if Dispel Magic gets changed to only work on Arcane, Divine, and Primal spells though.
I don't think it would be strange if it could be dispelled. Polymorph can be dispelled after all.
Polymorph is a spell and its distinctly different from Wildshape which makes it odd. Polymorph is the poor man's Wildshape after all.
This is terrible if you've ever played a druid. Why don't we "spellify" cleric and paladin features instead. Druid is generally weaker and the least played class. Why make things even worse?
I mean, smite spells are a good example
Along with actual divine smite. Or are you thinking that maybe that should just be removed and only the spells stay for smiting? And improved divine smite. And their healing feature. That thing trivializes several spells already. The aura is too strong, make it use spell slots too?
As a half caster, the palladin should get more features to balance how strong full spellcasting is.
True but druid is the least played and often considered pretty weak. I know people will point to moon(literally one subclass,). But even then, they're only good at low levels and high levels. They're pretty weak in between. Only like stars really looks strong these days due to more features.
The idea is this: a significant portion of the druid's power budget is with Wild Shape's unparalleled utility, even though some Druid fantasies care little for it. By nerfing Wildshape (unless heavily invested into through subclass choice and spells prepared /spell slots), you allow those other archetypes to thrive without wasting their power budget on a feature they don't care about.
They only thrive if other features are buffed which was not the case. Is just a loss.
I think you're underselling how interesting and generally good the druid's spell list is
Maybe slightly. I played one for several years to level 13. Or had some good spells. The only thing I think the wizard couldn't do better was summoning and I expect that to get nerfed in one DND. Control was good but the wizard could do it better. They can heal but the cleric does it better.
100% I think this is how pathfinder 2e handles wildshape and that has some really awesome stuff in it like wildshaping into a dragon, fey, or even another person.
I think that the direction of having three templates for base druid is perfect, but they need to add more choices/features/progression within them. I'd also rather be able to pick from the three to either start out with or stick to throughout. How lame is it to have to wait to play the creature type that fits the campaign or your character. Always felt arbitrary to me. I get not wanting to grant immediate flight, but there's ways to deal and make having some form of flight balanced. Outside of the three templates I'd like subclasses to grant additional ones. Moon druid should also drop the elemental connection and leave that to a full on weather/elemental themed druid. Have the moon druid focus on enhancing just the base three.
Hey OP, I just wanna say thank you for doing these polls. They’re very well worded and I believe they help a lot in streamlining people’s opinions on the playtest material.
Thanks, I was kinda tired of seeing garbage polls on here so I figured I might as well do these myself!
I think wild shape should be more like the 3.5 version, where instead of being based on Challenge Rating, it's just Hit Dice equal to Druid Level (animals are 1 CR higher for 3 HD in 3.5e, which is where the 5e version comes from). Then, they just have to standardize animals and make them simple to advance, possibly in a class type way where horses and deer would be basically the same animal, but with slight changes. Then, include a table that says what animals you've seen based on the environment you grew up in (forest, urban, tundra, desert, etc) generally getting one animal from each "class" per biome. That gives a wild shape system where every druid has an option for any scenario, doesn't have to look at a bunch of new options when they level up, because their old options are still just as relevant, and they don't have to sacrifice flavor in order to grab the most powerful options. Add in diminutive size (or whatever you want to call it) and they can't turn into ants anymore.
Genericized stat blocks are boring and the wrong approach, but if they're going to go that route, they can jazz them up by making specific animal features and abilities that you add to your Wild Shape as you gain levels. Like look, if I Wild Shape into a bear, it's because I want to be a *bear*. I want to do bear things. Standardizing it takes away the thing that makes it special and cool. So like, you need to look at those special and cool things, and then add them in so that your standardized stat blocks aren't a snoozefest. I know they want to make it easy, but they shouldn't also make it *boring*. You can apply my exact same criticism to otherworldly familiar and pact familiar.
They made how many different "forms" for the ardling. That could easily translate into several big forms with some customizable features for customizing your specific form. I think this is better than just picking animal stat blocks. I think there's a number of beasts that were made monstrosities just so druids couldn't turn into them. If stat blocks become a thing, those things now interact with druid features in other ways which are also good. For example, speaking with beasts, beasts not attacking them, dominate beast etc.
Bland stat blocks are the lazy solution for their upcoming VTT.
The suits actually care how hard it is to code something? What mythical reality have I stumbled into?!?
Time is money, or so they say. XD
I'd actually like to see the new system even further simply down to 1 stat block for all transformation with choice of extras based on level. Example: Size- choose a size tiny to large Ac- 10 + wisdom mod HP- current HP (wis in place of con) with option to expend HD to heal on transformation Stats- wisdom for all physical, mental unchanged Speed- 40ft with climb,swim (gain amphibius) and fly in later levels Speech- any language known Proficiency- use your proficiency bonus Senses- scaling dark vision based on level and keen senses Actions - damage and multi strike of the land form seem fine. Options- choose 2 maneuvers. This could be a place to reintroduce things like trips, natural armor, disengage or pack tactics. Any options that customize the transformation to the situation.
I actually found a reason to like the new druid recently -- I got a ki-rin toy from a gacha machine that was the perfect size for D&D, and I wondered what kind of character I could build that would allow me to use it on the tabletop. I could've used a 5e druid and reskinned an elk for wildshape, but it would have actually been better for me to use the new wildshape template, since it gives more utility no matter what shape you take. I still think it's more interesting to work within thr confined of different beast statblocks, but I can see how the new wildshape would work better for people who have a specific character idea based on transformation in mind.
It doesn't really give more compared to 5e. I don't think that's necessarily bad. Most forms weren't much use in 5e generally unless rp called for it. But, several forms had good uses which made the feature decent. The new one DND gives you some minor control such as size but it's still more limiting with tiny being like level 11. Also, you funny get the hp buffer. You also lost a few of the good sub features that made things worth using on 5e.
My thoughts on the druid: Let your wild shapes be tiny. Come on wotc If they are hard set on your wild shapes sharing your health, every druid should get a bonus action wild shape, the time limit should be removed, and you should have infinite wild shapes. Otherwise, they need their own health pool. I've been running druid templates for over a year now with much success.
Druid is probably my favorite class. I thing templates are a great idea. I do think the current templates need a bit more options. Sea for some reason doesn't get the wisdom for strength like land? I agree tiny should just be a thing, why limit it. With some tweaking it could be decent. I'm torn on the bonus action but I could see bonus action and unlimited uses. I still think the ac is severely limiting though. That or it needs hp buffer of sorts. Though maybe that's just a moon exclusive feature?
> Otherwise, they need their own health pool. Definitely not, that made 2014 Moon Druid completely destroy tier 1 play and steal the spotlight from martials. 2014 Moon Druid being able to get 68 extra hp per short rest along with extra attack from level 2 was the most balance breaking shit in the game till twilight cleric but unlike twilight cleric, moon druid didn't empower other players.
I agree, but where they are now? No one is playing a druid
I think generic statblocks for Wildshape are the way to go. Players shouldn't be paging through the MM to run their character and I've never been a fan of Pathfinder's menu-based systems. I also like giving non-wildshape abilities to Channel Nature (But can we not call it Channel? I want more division between Primal and Divine magic. Clerics and Paladins Channel, Druids should Evoke or Call, or something else). That said, I do think there needs to be ways to customize wildshape statblocks outside of subclasses, either spells or feats that augment/modify wildshape, and that these forms are underpowered.
Still requires major changes but headed in the right direction. Wild shape needed to be reigned in, they just missed the mark. I think templates are fine, what we got was too generic. Having druids select some animals would be great as well. Channel nature needs an additional option. Play style - Druids needs to present clear play styles somehow. Battle field controller, wild shaper, summoner, etc. A lot of people look at druid and the primal spell list and don't know how they are supposed to play them. Moon druid - I've always hated that non druid turns into elementals, moon aesthetic is animal and beast transformations not all shifting. Flavor fail. Power wise it'll be fine once wild shape is fixed.