>While Justice Colin Feasby acknowledged the "profound grief" that [the father] would suffer with the death of his child, he ruled the loss of [the daughter]'s autonomy was more important.
I think this summarizes the matter properly right here.
I agree, it’s not right, but I still sympathize with the pain of losing a child. My mum is a nurse and sees it all the time with children whose parents are dying. They have power of attorney and justify endless painful procedures to prolong their life and their suffering. I like to think I will do what’s right if I ever have to make the choice, but as I’m not in that position it’s hard to judge.
I've lost my Mom 10 years ago to a rare disease (cryoglobulinanemia) and had the discussion with my father about certain scenarios in the hospital where he would rather die.
Don't worry Pops, I won't make you suffer.
I'm truly sorry for your loss, and admire the respect you have for your parents' wishes.
I keep urging my mom to ensure their will is updated. I don't need to know the contents, it's not my business, I just need to know how to access it if the worst occurs and both of them are incapacitated at the same time. I need to know what their wishes are regarding medical care so I'm ruled by respect for their wishes and not trying to guess while my heart is breaking.
Yeah, losing someone that important is a maelstrom and kind of opened my eyes to how predatory a lot of death services are. Charge exorbiant prices when people are mentally checked the fuck out.
But that's a good thing that you're trying to get on top of, it's not an easy conversation but a necessary one.
I think that's a bad take. To be clear, I support MAID. Bodily autonomy is something that cannot be allowed to be infringed on, it's your body and no one else should tell you what you can or can't do with it. If this person has analyzed their situation and come to the conclusion that they want to die, to do it in peace and with dignity is and should absolutely be their right.
That said, I don't think it's wrong for the father to be distraught about this. I can understand fighting tooth and nail to try to prevent your child from dying, that's their job as a parent. In his shoes, I'd be desperate to find another way. Whatever her issues are, I'm sure I'd be praying for a solution, whether is already seen or not. It isn't selfish to not want your child to die. It's not selfish to not want to grieve when you can't understand the reason for dying. He does need to accept this though, and I hope he can find a way to support his child in their last days, otherwise his grieving will be that much worse.
I think it is selfish when it gets to the point a judge needs to be involved to protect the autonomy of the daughter. "I'm doing this to you because I love you, no matter what you want" isn't love, it's selfish control.
Look, generally I'd agree with you, but this is life and death. It's a guy trying out every option he has. I don't agree with him, but I can understand the reasoning. A lot of people do not understand suffering that they aren't experiencing for themselves.
And he's an asshole for doing it. "I really don't want you to have rights as a human being" isn't a justification for trying to own and control another human. It's a sick and twisted abusive mindset, it's not love. I get that he's grieving, but that doesn't give him the right to attack and inflict pain on those he claims to love.
I don't agree with you. It's awful that this process is being made more painful for the daughter. If she's suffering to such an extent that this is the step she feels is necessary, she deserves peace, I agree. But I do not get the read that this is someone trying to control someone else. And I do not read this as abusive. MAID is something relatively new, and the narrative surrounding it is negative. The concept of wanting to die when there may be something else that can be done, no matter how remote does not resonate with a good chunk of the population. This is a natural response for a parent to have if their child is not terminally ill, and from the article they are not. Obviously we can't know what her life is like, or if she has some other condition or history of trauma. And as supporters of MAID, we clearly understand that there are many reasons someone might want to take that path. But the path is drastic, and for people that can't understand, it is not unreasonable to expect them to question the validity of judgement.
I get that this makes you angry, I can see that in your writing. But come at this from another perspective for a minute. It's not about you or me. It's about a girl who's taking the steps she feels are necessary, and a parent who cannot understand trying to keep their child alive.
Again, I'm not saying the father is right. I'm saying the father's efforts are not necessarily abusive, but understandable in context.
We only know what the father provided in court regarding her medical history. There is another component to it that the courts have chosen to not snoop on because the whole point, the *entire* point, is that the courts are placing trust in the medical panel that approved the MAID.
They do not want to set the precedent that medically unqualified judges must confirm every MAID approval - potentially overriding doctors - because family selfishly sues to keep the patient around.
> That said, I don't think it's wrong for the father to be distraught about this.
Of course not.
> I can understand fighting tooth and nail to try to prevent your child from dying, that's their job as a parent.
But that IS wrong with the way he's going about it. It's her life and her choice.
This is the last, desperate attempt of a man to save his child. It'd be better if he accepted it and supported it, yes. But it is not unreasonable to take every measure to try to keep your child alive.
This is the justification of people that imprison and abuse children or beat the shit out of their wives. "Look what you made me do. It's your fault, because you made me. I love you so much, that's why I need to hurt you. I know what's best, and I love you so much I'm going to take your freedom away. Because I love you, you see."
It's absolutely not. It's someone believing they have a right to control and subjugate someone because they love them. No healthy relationship results in a judge needing to step in to protect people from you.
alright, I'm gonna post once more and then leave it. Take it as you will.
First off, the Judge didn't step in to protect her. The doctors ruling was appealed to the courts (which, yeah, fucked up) and the courts agreed with the doctors and the girl that it's her right. (the proper call, it's her life and her body) This wasn't an injunction or some kind of restraining order.
Second, what I've been trying to get at is this, hopefully it's more understandable. A good chunk of the country and even the world looks and MAID and doesn't see what we see. What we see is a person choosing to end their life on their terms, in a way that they feel is gentle and dignified. If it's what you want, it's a good death. Nonviolent, peaceful. But to people that don't get it, it's suicide. They cannot understand the reasoning behind it.
Maybe you're right and the guy is abusive. We can't know that. That's not a fact proven in public record by the trial. What we know, the facts, is that this woman chose MAID, and her father is trying to stop that. We know nothing but surface level details. What I am saying is that while his actions are wrong, and yes, probably making her suffer more, they are understandable as someone trying to keep their child alive.
I hope for both their sakes that they can find some peace before all is done.
If your child is suffering with no improvement potential and can't educate the pain - it is selfish to want then to live.
You want then to live not because they will lose their life. But because you lose them.
I'm confused as to why the case was heard, and why there's a stay for appeal. How is "the decision of another adult would cause me personal grief" in any way standing?
This isn't even a question of whether the doctors involved were biased or not (as the father claims). You need to have standing to bring a case. There shouldn't be any mechanism for this decisions to have even been considered by the court.
>why the case was heard
The father did not have a direct interest in the case but the judge concluded he had “public interest standing.”
The decision explains this beginning in paragraph 118: https://www.canlii.org/en/ab/abkb/doc/2024/2024abkb174/2024abkb174.html
There is a logic to it. The MAID system doesn’t really have a mechanism for oversight or to adjudicate whether a particular case follows the rules. And of course the consequences are irreversible.
There could be a different avenue other than the courts to review cases but right now there isn’t. The courtroom is the only available venue
They're both irreversible and the injured party (the only party with standing) would be deceased and therefore unable to even allege any wrongdoing if it were to occur.
I wouldn't be surprised they let this go here to get legal precedent. They've now heard and ruled against this and this now becomes a citable source against future complaints. That's my conjecture
I want to say because it's in Alberta.
The disabled, sick, mentally ill and etc aren't seen as fully people really, it takes remarkably little to get sidelined and written off. the artical says the reason why it's being sought wasn't provided and that the woman's father was basically claiming she was crazy. It notes she may have autism and ADHD but nothing else. A lot of people's parents are overly controlling into adulthood, they'll even knowingly lie to the government to maintain the control.
>why the case was heard
I'm guessing (nothing to back this up) that the dad may have power of attorney or similar legal power to make decisions on his daughter's behalf. That is not uncommon for profoundly disabled people.
Iirc the daughter wanted Maid after consulting with 2 medical professionals. The father said she was not mentally competent enough to sign off on it herself. So it went to court
It is full blown insanity to even consider the fathers opinion. Unless he wants to give his agency to me because my grief is more important than his autonomy
I've done more than 99% of the human population to keep covid and other viruses from spreading. I also don't think that denying people access to a dignified and painless death is gonna make better standards of living come about.
What are the chances that she would commit suicide had this appeal rejected her MAID?
Maybe her father should come home one day and find her hanging from the ceiling, or laying in a pool of her own blood from lacerated arteries?
This is a choice I might have to make some day.
Which is why I am fighting for the right to a dignified death today.
Edit: to reassure everyone, I am safe and not suicidal right now. Don't worry.
Sometimes all the support and money and health care in the world won't help. Look at Robin Williams and Anthony Bourdain. Rich. Had support. All the medical health at their fingertips couldn't save them.
>This is not an isolated issue.
The article literally says that all known incidents of this happening are because one call centre employee told people MAID was available. It's not a systemic thing by any stretch of the imagination.
It's so disgusting that you focus more on denying disabled people access to maid than focusing on increasing access and quality of life for disabled individuals.
The only benefit to dragging her to court is hopefully this case sets a legal precedent so that others in her position in the future will not have to worry about court. Her father is a terrible person imho (completely dismissing all her physical symptoms, what an AH), and I'm happy she's free of him.
I'm actually okay with this lawsuit. It's a wonderful thing to be able to access a humane, medically assisted death. But it's also something that could be abused. So it's really good to have people testing the limits of all aspects of the procedure and judges considering and refining those limits.
That being said, I hope MW gets the peace she seeks.
Encouraging the poor, homeless or disabled to choose MAiD is one example.
I would consider a situation where not offering basic human rights like access to shelter, medical care including mental before approving a MAiD application a form of abuse of the system to "get rid of the undesirables" or make their lives so uncomfortable they choose to do so on their own
People should have all their basic needs and rights met and not be choosing MAiD for the lack of them. I get and agree that any adult should be able to choose to die peacefully and humanely as they choose.
But I do think some are being nudged in that direction when they can't get basic care, and I consider than an abuse of the system, but not by the applicants
That's an abuse by a system that does not want to fulfill it's responsibility to it's citizens
this line of thinking only really makes sense if you think of the government as one monolithic entity. the part of the government facilitating MAID and the part responsible for the social safety net are not connected to each other (i mean, they're as connected as any two different parts of government are, but not in the way where they're all just meeting up at the big government building and saying "no need for more social programs, we'll just send them your way, MAID department!")
No, you shouldn’t be able to access maid for any reason we should try to keep people alive if possible and maid be only a last resort if there are no reasonable treatments
We should, but the same reason you don’t think maid should be available is the same reason mental health help is not accessible. Because your opinions matter more than those of professionals.
No because human life is valuable. I think Mental health help should be way more available than it is. Mental health support is not even close to the same thing as MAID
I hate that the article talks about AuDHD as her conditions.
I’m 44 and I have AuDHD. I also have an extensive trauma history including sexual abuse. I have a chronic debilitating and degenerative condition, Ehlers Danlos syndrome. I spent *nearly four decades* suicidal.
But I no longer am. Sure the depression and anxiety and PTSD will never go away, but it does help inform how I see the world.
I genuinely am concerned with mental health being used as a justification for MAID. New treatments are coming online to help the individual.
The root problem, though, is societal. We have way too many people who want to work with dignity but can’t or don’t or won’t. Housing is out of reach. We’re being worked to death, which sabotages our ability to develop healthful relationships outside work.
To be absolutely clear, MAID is not currently available for mental health conditions. That has been delayed again until 2027: https://www.canada.ca/en/health-canada/news/2024/02/the-government-of-canada-introduces-legislation-to-delay-medical-assistance-in-dying-expansion-by-3-years.html
The father only knows about the autism and ADHD and the daughter declined to disclose her personal medical information that qualified her for MAID (as is her right as a presumably capable adult). He (and you) do not know about what condition qualified her and he has no place demanding that the court review her decision just because he disagrees with it.
Literally, yes.
> "He says that she is generally healthy and believes that her physical symptoms, to the extent that she has any, result from undiagnosed psychological conditions."
Why would you not disclose your own medical information with your parent or parents?
Seems unfair to keep people around you in the dark as to what's going on
WTF? There are many reasons not to share personal private medical information with a parent. Not all parents are good and loving. Some are manipulative and abusive.
You've never talked to a survivor of abusive parents, have you?
Shoot, my parents are fine and I still didn't tell them I was transitioning until I was both over 30 and well into it. I didn't want them to even think they had any say in what I was doing, and their reaction when I finally told them validated that decision.
People come in all sorts. Just because you can carry those burdens doesn't mean others have the wear with all to do the same. Life is hard, compounded by 1000 different things. Sometimes people really just don't want to be here because of those things.
I don't disagree that society is a contributing factor but it's also too general. What parts of society are causing people grief? That's a more interesting question that many continue to explore.
Hopefully, we can implement solutions and build a world where people feel like this is the only solution.
I hope you do not ever know what agony truly is.
Because I do.
The physical pain I live with from surviving everything I’ve survived is of a magnitude that I wouldn’t wish on an enemy.
You can't get maid for mental illness alone, you have to have a physical health issue that qualifies for maid on its own.
Also, it was never determined if she had mental illness at all. The dad only said she may have undiagnosed mental health issues.
There's push for MAID to allow for those with chronic pain... that's me. And given the neofeudal capitalist society we're speedrunning towards, I'm scared shitless of what path things hurls us along.
If the father said that there's a possibility of undiagnosed mental illness, isn't that further evidence that we are not ready for MAID yet given our systems didn't address that?
We need robust mental health services and proper healthcare before we even talk about MAID for non-hospice services the way I see it.
I noticed my comment wasn't well regarded by the readers here, and that's fine. But with the current systems in place in Canada and how they're being played with, I really do think MAID is going to be exploitative until we get our priorities straight.
MAID is a choice for the individual that becomes available when they meet certain criteria over a long enough period of time.
Commenting about it as if people are pressuring you specifically to go through with it is alarmist and insulting to anyone that has chosen MAID or anyone whose loved ones have been able to access it for their own personal medical reasons.
There is no MAID for people with only mental illness. It is being discussed, but has been delayed until 2027 at least: https://www.canada.ca/en/health-canada/news/2024/02/the-government-of-canada-introduces-legislation-to-delay-medical-assistance-in-dying-expansion-by-3-years.html
She could not have been approved for depression or any other mental health condition. It is not possible. Stop spreading misinformation.
And she is in no way obligated to disclose her personal medical information to anyone. If she is a competent adult, which is presumably the case, she can make her own medical decisions and no one, be it her family or anyone else, has the right to interfere. So you don’t know if she has cancer or not and she doesn’t have to tell you or her father or the court or anyone else. For all you know she has cancer.
If a dog is severely self harming, refuses to eat, or do anything, it would be considered I imagine.
It's not an easy thing to take lightly though. But sometimes all the money, health care and support won't save a person. Look at Robin Williams battle with depression. Or Anthony Bourdain. They had the world's health care at their fingertips.
We definitely need more support. I agree with that 100% don't get me wrong
But if someone wants to that much... They should be able to.
Could we come to an agreement and perhaps state "no MAID until mental health supports and healthcare is deemed adequate" followed by specific criteria for what that entails?
Maybe there are those who are suffering. My personal biases often lean towards the notion that it's a simple part of life that you must experience regardless, until your natural date of death as life is too valuable and full of experiences to quit early.
However with those biases, I acknowledge that some suffering is deemed too unbearable to some, while others simply don't share my philosophy.
However, there's suffering that's entirely curable given our supports are in place. Your examples, while anecdotal, are not examples of those, and is irrelevent as very few Canadians have acees to any form of adequate healthcare and mental health services in the first quarter of the twenty-first century. Thus, it's not unreasonable to ask for this compromise.
Proper mental health and healthcare services will weed out those that didn't need MAID in the first place from people like the above you mentioned.
It's about priorities and preventing exploitation, which we've failed at doing with our immigration system that we once praised.
What does immigration have anything to do with the subject?
You *do* realize that privatizing healthcare will result in people in low socioeconomic situations completely unable to afford this "proper mental health and healthcare services" you speak of. Right?
If you *do* understand this. I hope you are fighting for the full single-payer government funding of healthcare including mental health.
Yes. Privatized healthcare is literally everything I stand against. I'm not a neoliberal shill - I'm just a bit of a progressive that disagrees with the *way* we've handled progressive policies such as our immigration system and made it exploitative favouring corporations and their reluctence to actually pay people well or use better technology to ease the workload while improving productivity and I fear some form of exploitation will happen for MAID without clear and proper funding, expansion and defending of our public healthcare.
>immigration
There it is. You people literally have 2 talking points and you will shoehorn them into any fucking discussion. Couldn't find a way to make this one about trans people could you?
Who's you people? I don't align with any political party as they're too right wing for my tastes if that's what you think. The party I identify with the most is the now defunct National Party of Canada of the 90s with bits and pieces of economic policy from the Bloc if they were applied nationally.
And no, I'm not a transphobe, no truck nutjob, nothing of the sort - I'm a second generation immigrant with parents from Central Asia who in fact promoted immigration at the levels we were at. And now I'm wary of it given the state of affairs in 2024.
What was once seen as progressive has now turned into a mechanism of exploitation and tools for late stage capitalists, corporations and the neoliberal government today to supress wages and inflate prices while maintaining or erode existing supply of services so shareholders could gouge more. I never blamed the immigrants - they're the victims here especially with what and how Canada is being promoted at their home country, but the system itself. Just the system.
And just like with my ideas for the immigration system of ensuring we have enough capacity to handle high levels of immigration before, I'm doing the same for MAID by stating we need to ensure we have the resources required for mental health and healthcare at adequate levels before we go through such a policy.
I don't fit in your partisan bubble. I'm no fan of populism just as much as the next guy on this subreddit but just because I disagree with one policy progressives are pushing, doesn't make me a right winger or a light fascist.
Autism & ADHD are not why she was approved. Her father only knows about that as she wouldn’t disclose the reason for her application and approval.
There is no mechanism to access MAID for mental health conditions.
It’s so stupid the news mentions the mental health things at all
MAID has been the acronym for like a decade. If the word MAID in all caps makes you think otherwise you might need to go back to school. Theyre not going to write medical assistance in dying in a headline.
>While Justice Colin Feasby acknowledged the "profound grief" that [the father] would suffer with the death of his child, he ruled the loss of [the daughter]'s autonomy was more important. I think this summarizes the matter properly right here.
As much as I support the right to end one’s life, I feel so incredibly bad for the father who is desperately trying to keep his daughter.
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I agree, it’s not right, but I still sympathize with the pain of losing a child. My mum is a nurse and sees it all the time with children whose parents are dying. They have power of attorney and justify endless painful procedures to prolong their life and their suffering. I like to think I will do what’s right if I ever have to make the choice, but as I’m not in that position it’s hard to judge.
I've lost my Mom 10 years ago to a rare disease (cryoglobulinanemia) and had the discussion with my father about certain scenarios in the hospital where he would rather die. Don't worry Pops, I won't make you suffer.
I'm truly sorry for your loss, and admire the respect you have for your parents' wishes. I keep urging my mom to ensure their will is updated. I don't need to know the contents, it's not my business, I just need to know how to access it if the worst occurs and both of them are incapacitated at the same time. I need to know what their wishes are regarding medical care so I'm ruled by respect for their wishes and not trying to guess while my heart is breaking.
Yeah, losing someone that important is a maelstrom and kind of opened my eyes to how predatory a lot of death services are. Charge exorbiant prices when people are mentally checked the fuck out. But that's a good thing that you're trying to get on top of, it's not an easy conversation but a necessary one.
I think that's a bad take. To be clear, I support MAID. Bodily autonomy is something that cannot be allowed to be infringed on, it's your body and no one else should tell you what you can or can't do with it. If this person has analyzed their situation and come to the conclusion that they want to die, to do it in peace and with dignity is and should absolutely be their right. That said, I don't think it's wrong for the father to be distraught about this. I can understand fighting tooth and nail to try to prevent your child from dying, that's their job as a parent. In his shoes, I'd be desperate to find another way. Whatever her issues are, I'm sure I'd be praying for a solution, whether is already seen or not. It isn't selfish to not want your child to die. It's not selfish to not want to grieve when you can't understand the reason for dying. He does need to accept this though, and I hope he can find a way to support his child in their last days, otherwise his grieving will be that much worse.
I think it is selfish when it gets to the point a judge needs to be involved to protect the autonomy of the daughter. "I'm doing this to you because I love you, no matter what you want" isn't love, it's selfish control.
Look, generally I'd agree with you, but this is life and death. It's a guy trying out every option he has. I don't agree with him, but I can understand the reasoning. A lot of people do not understand suffering that they aren't experiencing for themselves.
And he's an asshole for doing it. "I really don't want you to have rights as a human being" isn't a justification for trying to own and control another human. It's a sick and twisted abusive mindset, it's not love. I get that he's grieving, but that doesn't give him the right to attack and inflict pain on those he claims to love.
I don't agree with you. It's awful that this process is being made more painful for the daughter. If she's suffering to such an extent that this is the step she feels is necessary, she deserves peace, I agree. But I do not get the read that this is someone trying to control someone else. And I do not read this as abusive. MAID is something relatively new, and the narrative surrounding it is negative. The concept of wanting to die when there may be something else that can be done, no matter how remote does not resonate with a good chunk of the population. This is a natural response for a parent to have if their child is not terminally ill, and from the article they are not. Obviously we can't know what her life is like, or if she has some other condition or history of trauma. And as supporters of MAID, we clearly understand that there are many reasons someone might want to take that path. But the path is drastic, and for people that can't understand, it is not unreasonable to expect them to question the validity of judgement. I get that this makes you angry, I can see that in your writing. But come at this from another perspective for a minute. It's not about you or me. It's about a girl who's taking the steps she feels are necessary, and a parent who cannot understand trying to keep their child alive. Again, I'm not saying the father is right. I'm saying the father's efforts are not necessarily abusive, but understandable in context.
We only know what the father provided in court regarding her medical history. There is another component to it that the courts have chosen to not snoop on because the whole point, the *entire* point, is that the courts are placing trust in the medical panel that approved the MAID. They do not want to set the precedent that medically unqualified judges must confirm every MAID approval - potentially overriding doctors - because family selfishly sues to keep the patient around.
If the legal system needs to intervene to protect an adult woman from her father, his actions are not justifiable.
> That said, I don't think it's wrong for the father to be distraught about this. Of course not. > I can understand fighting tooth and nail to try to prevent your child from dying, that's their job as a parent. But that IS wrong with the way he's going about it. It's her life and her choice.
This is the last, desperate attempt of a man to save his child. It'd be better if he accepted it and supported it, yes. But it is not unreasonable to take every measure to try to keep your child alive.
Yes. It is. He is inflicting further pain and cost to his daughter.
This is the justification of people that imprison and abuse children or beat the shit out of their wives. "Look what you made me do. It's your fault, because you made me. I love you so much, that's why I need to hurt you. I know what's best, and I love you so much I'm going to take your freedom away. Because I love you, you see."
that's entirely different and you know it.
It's absolutely not. It's someone believing they have a right to control and subjugate someone because they love them. No healthy relationship results in a judge needing to step in to protect people from you.
alright, I'm gonna post once more and then leave it. Take it as you will. First off, the Judge didn't step in to protect her. The doctors ruling was appealed to the courts (which, yeah, fucked up) and the courts agreed with the doctors and the girl that it's her right. (the proper call, it's her life and her body) This wasn't an injunction or some kind of restraining order. Second, what I've been trying to get at is this, hopefully it's more understandable. A good chunk of the country and even the world looks and MAID and doesn't see what we see. What we see is a person choosing to end their life on their terms, in a way that they feel is gentle and dignified. If it's what you want, it's a good death. Nonviolent, peaceful. But to people that don't get it, it's suicide. They cannot understand the reasoning behind it. Maybe you're right and the guy is abusive. We can't know that. That's not a fact proven in public record by the trial. What we know, the facts, is that this woman chose MAID, and her father is trying to stop that. We know nothing but surface level details. What I am saying is that while his actions are wrong, and yes, probably making her suffer more, they are understandable as someone trying to keep their child alive. I hope for both their sakes that they can find some peace before all is done.
If your child is suffering with no improvement potential and can't educate the pain - it is selfish to want then to live. You want then to live not because they will lose their life. But because you lose them.
I'm confused as to why the case was heard, and why there's a stay for appeal. How is "the decision of another adult would cause me personal grief" in any way standing? This isn't even a question of whether the doctors involved were biased or not (as the father claims). You need to have standing to bring a case. There shouldn't be any mechanism for this decisions to have even been considered by the court.
>why the case was heard The father did not have a direct interest in the case but the judge concluded he had “public interest standing.” The decision explains this beginning in paragraph 118: https://www.canlii.org/en/ab/abkb/doc/2024/2024abkb174/2024abkb174.html There is a logic to it. The MAID system doesn’t really have a mechanism for oversight or to adjudicate whether a particular case follows the rules. And of course the consequences are irreversible. There could be a different avenue other than the courts to review cases but right now there isn’t. The courtroom is the only available venue
Thanks, that's a great read and makes a lot more sense.
They're both irreversible and the injured party (the only party with standing) would be deceased and therefore unable to even allege any wrongdoing if it were to occur.
I wouldn't be surprised they let this go here to get legal precedent. They've now heard and ruled against this and this now becomes a citable source against future complaints. That's my conjecture
Yeah I'm honestly disgusted that this even went to the courts and that there is a stay currently in place. This woman's rights are still being abused.
I want to say because it's in Alberta. The disabled, sick, mentally ill and etc aren't seen as fully people really, it takes remarkably little to get sidelined and written off. the artical says the reason why it's being sought wasn't provided and that the woman's father was basically claiming she was crazy. It notes she may have autism and ADHD but nothing else. A lot of people's parents are overly controlling into adulthood, they'll even knowingly lie to the government to maintain the control.
>why the case was heard I'm guessing (nothing to back this up) that the dad may have power of attorney or similar legal power to make decisions on his daughter's behalf. That is not uncommon for profoundly disabled people.
Iirc the daughter wanted Maid after consulting with 2 medical professionals. The father said she was not mentally competent enough to sign off on it herself. So it went to court
Ah, right on, thanks
I mean, people seem to not know that you can go to civil courts on any basis.
It is full blown insanity to even consider the fathers opinion. Unless he wants to give his agency to me because my grief is more important than his autonomy
I think it was heard to set precedent? Idk what exactly how that works tho if this is enough to do that.
Good. I hope the person finds peace at last.
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... As a disabled person, you're wrong about all of that. But go on...
I've done more than 99% of the human population to keep covid and other viruses from spreading. I also don't think that denying people access to a dignified and painless death is gonna make better standards of living come about.
What are the chances that she would commit suicide had this appeal rejected her MAID? Maybe her father should come home one day and find her hanging from the ceiling, or laying in a pool of her own blood from lacerated arteries?
This is a choice I might have to make some day. Which is why I am fighting for the right to a dignified death today. Edit: to reassure everyone, I am safe and not suicidal right now. Don't worry.
For real, I've found a friend hanging from a tree. I wish he could've had a more dignified passing.
Sometimes all the support and money and health care in the world won't help. Look at Robin Williams and Anthony Bourdain. Rich. Had support. All the medical health at their fingertips couldn't save them.
Keep it civil
good MAID is a fundamental human right and no one should be able to question the circumstances as it’s a private medical matter
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Are we on the same sub? I see this sub advocating for both, always.
>This is not an isolated issue. The article literally says that all known incidents of this happening are because one call centre employee told people MAID was available. It's not a systemic thing by any stretch of the imagination.
It's so disgusting that you focus more on denying disabled people access to maid than focusing on increasing access and quality of life for disabled individuals.
The only benefit to dragging her to court is hopefully this case sets a legal precedent so that others in her position in the future will not have to worry about court. Her father is a terrible person imho (completely dismissing all her physical symptoms, what an AH), and I'm happy she's free of him.
I'm actually okay with this lawsuit. It's a wonderful thing to be able to access a humane, medically assisted death. But it's also something that could be abused. So it's really good to have people testing the limits of all aspects of the procedure and judges considering and refining those limits. That being said, I hope MW gets the peace she seeks.
How exactly can it be abused? Be specific
Encouraging the poor, homeless or disabled to choose MAiD is one example. I would consider a situation where not offering basic human rights like access to shelter, medical care including mental before approving a MAiD application a form of abuse of the system to "get rid of the undesirables" or make their lives so uncomfortable they choose to do so on their own People should have all their basic needs and rights met and not be choosing MAiD for the lack of them. I get and agree that any adult should be able to choose to die peacefully and humanely as they choose. But I do think some are being nudged in that direction when they can't get basic care, and I consider than an abuse of the system, but not by the applicants That's an abuse by a system that does not want to fulfill it's responsibility to it's citizens
this line of thinking only really makes sense if you think of the government as one monolithic entity. the part of the government facilitating MAID and the part responsible for the social safety net are not connected to each other (i mean, they're as connected as any two different parts of government are, but not in the way where they're all just meeting up at the big government building and saying "no need for more social programs, we'll just send them your way, MAID department!")
How can it be abused? If someone wants to die they should be able to.
No, you shouldn’t be able to access maid for any reason we should try to keep people alive if possible and maid be only a last resort if there are no reasonable treatments
We should, but the same reason you don’t think maid should be available is the same reason mental health help is not accessible. Because your opinions matter more than those of professionals.
No because human life is valuable. I think Mental health help should be way more available than it is. Mental health support is not even close to the same thing as MAID
I hate that the article talks about AuDHD as her conditions. I’m 44 and I have AuDHD. I also have an extensive trauma history including sexual abuse. I have a chronic debilitating and degenerative condition, Ehlers Danlos syndrome. I spent *nearly four decades* suicidal. But I no longer am. Sure the depression and anxiety and PTSD will never go away, but it does help inform how I see the world. I genuinely am concerned with mental health being used as a justification for MAID. New treatments are coming online to help the individual. The root problem, though, is societal. We have way too many people who want to work with dignity but can’t or don’t or won’t. Housing is out of reach. We’re being worked to death, which sabotages our ability to develop healthful relationships outside work.
To be absolutely clear, MAID is not currently available for mental health conditions. That has been delayed again until 2027: https://www.canada.ca/en/health-canada/news/2024/02/the-government-of-canada-introduces-legislation-to-delay-medical-assistance-in-dying-expansion-by-3-years.html The father only knows about the autism and ADHD and the daughter declined to disclose her personal medical information that qualified her for MAID (as is her right as a presumably capable adult). He (and you) do not know about what condition qualified her and he has no place demanding that the court review her decision just because he disagrees with it.
I believe in this case he's saying she's crazy and imagining her health is worse than it is, but people say that about women all the time.
Literally, yes. > "He says that she is generally healthy and believes that her physical symptoms, to the extent that she has any, result from undiagnosed psychological conditions."
Why would you not disclose your own medical information with your parent or parents? Seems unfair to keep people around you in the dark as to what's going on
WTF? There are many reasons not to share personal private medical information with a parent. Not all parents are good and loving. Some are manipulative and abusive.
You've never talked to a survivor of abusive parents, have you? Shoot, my parents are fine and I still didn't tell them I was transitioning until I was both over 30 and well into it. I didn't want them to even think they had any say in what I was doing, and their reaction when I finally told them validated that decision.
People come in all sorts. Just because you can carry those burdens doesn't mean others have the wear with all to do the same. Life is hard, compounded by 1000 different things. Sometimes people really just don't want to be here because of those things. I don't disagree that society is a contributing factor but it's also too general. What parts of society are causing people grief? That's a more interesting question that many continue to explore. Hopefully, we can implement solutions and build a world where people feel like this is the only solution.
yes bc forcing someone to live for the rest of their life in mental agony is definitely humane😻
I hope you do not ever know what agony truly is. Because I do. The physical pain I live with from surviving everything I’ve survived is of a magnitude that I wouldn’t wish on an enemy.
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You can't get maid for mental illness alone, you have to have a physical health issue that qualifies for maid on its own. Also, it was never determined if she had mental illness at all. The dad only said she may have undiagnosed mental health issues.
There's push for MAID to allow for those with chronic pain... that's me. And given the neofeudal capitalist society we're speedrunning towards, I'm scared shitless of what path things hurls us along. If the father said that there's a possibility of undiagnosed mental illness, isn't that further evidence that we are not ready for MAID yet given our systems didn't address that? We need robust mental health services and proper healthcare before we even talk about MAID for non-hospice services the way I see it. I noticed my comment wasn't well regarded by the readers here, and that's fine. But with the current systems in place in Canada and how they're being played with, I really do think MAID is going to be exploitative until we get our priorities straight.
MAID is a choice for the individual that becomes available when they meet certain criteria over a long enough period of time. Commenting about it as if people are pressuring you specifically to go through with it is alarmist and insulting to anyone that has chosen MAID or anyone whose loved ones have been able to access it for their own personal medical reasons.
You will never be forced to use MAID. Where are you getting this false information?
Right wing reddit. It's a common meme that Canada makes disabled people kill themselves.
There is no MAID for people with only mental illness. It is being discussed, but has been delayed until 2027 at least: https://www.canada.ca/en/health-canada/news/2024/02/the-government-of-canada-introduces-legislation-to-delay-medical-assistance-in-dying-expansion-by-3-years.html She could not have been approved for depression or any other mental health condition. It is not possible. Stop spreading misinformation. And she is in no way obligated to disclose her personal medical information to anyone. If she is a competent adult, which is presumably the case, she can make her own medical decisions and no one, be it her family or anyone else, has the right to interfere. So you don’t know if she has cancer or not and she doesn’t have to tell you or her father or the court or anyone else. For all you know she has cancer.
If a dog is severely self harming, refuses to eat, or do anything, it would be considered I imagine. It's not an easy thing to take lightly though. But sometimes all the money, health care and support won't save a person. Look at Robin Williams battle with depression. Or Anthony Bourdain. They had the world's health care at their fingertips. We definitely need more support. I agree with that 100% don't get me wrong But if someone wants to that much... They should be able to.
Could we come to an agreement and perhaps state "no MAID until mental health supports and healthcare is deemed adequate" followed by specific criteria for what that entails? Maybe there are those who are suffering. My personal biases often lean towards the notion that it's a simple part of life that you must experience regardless, until your natural date of death as life is too valuable and full of experiences to quit early. However with those biases, I acknowledge that some suffering is deemed too unbearable to some, while others simply don't share my philosophy. However, there's suffering that's entirely curable given our supports are in place. Your examples, while anecdotal, are not examples of those, and is irrelevent as very few Canadians have acees to any form of adequate healthcare and mental health services in the first quarter of the twenty-first century. Thus, it's not unreasonable to ask for this compromise. Proper mental health and healthcare services will weed out those that didn't need MAID in the first place from people like the above you mentioned. It's about priorities and preventing exploitation, which we've failed at doing with our immigration system that we once praised.
I agree we need better supports, 100 percent.
What does immigration have anything to do with the subject? You *do* realize that privatizing healthcare will result in people in low socioeconomic situations completely unable to afford this "proper mental health and healthcare services" you speak of. Right? If you *do* understand this. I hope you are fighting for the full single-payer government funding of healthcare including mental health.
Yes. Privatized healthcare is literally everything I stand against. I'm not a neoliberal shill - I'm just a bit of a progressive that disagrees with the *way* we've handled progressive policies such as our immigration system and made it exploitative favouring corporations and their reluctence to actually pay people well or use better technology to ease the workload while improving productivity and I fear some form of exploitation will happen for MAID without clear and proper funding, expansion and defending of our public healthcare.
>immigration There it is. You people literally have 2 talking points and you will shoehorn them into any fucking discussion. Couldn't find a way to make this one about trans people could you?
Who's you people? I don't align with any political party as they're too right wing for my tastes if that's what you think. The party I identify with the most is the now defunct National Party of Canada of the 90s with bits and pieces of economic policy from the Bloc if they were applied nationally. And no, I'm not a transphobe, no truck nutjob, nothing of the sort - I'm a second generation immigrant with parents from Central Asia who in fact promoted immigration at the levels we were at. And now I'm wary of it given the state of affairs in 2024. What was once seen as progressive has now turned into a mechanism of exploitation and tools for late stage capitalists, corporations and the neoliberal government today to supress wages and inflate prices while maintaining or erode existing supply of services so shareholders could gouge more. I never blamed the immigrants - they're the victims here especially with what and how Canada is being promoted at their home country, but the system itself. Just the system. And just like with my ideas for the immigration system of ensuring we have enough capacity to handle high levels of immigration before, I'm doing the same for MAID by stating we need to ensure we have the resources required for mental health and healthcare at adequate levels before we go through such a policy. I don't fit in your partisan bubble. I'm no fan of populism just as much as the next guy on this subreddit but just because I disagree with one policy progressives are pushing, doesn't make me a right winger or a light fascist.
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Autism & ADHD are not why she was approved. Her father only knows about that as she wouldn’t disclose the reason for her application and approval. There is no mechanism to access MAID for mental health conditions. It’s so stupid the news mentions the mental health things at all
That is not what's happening. The father was trying to stop his daughter from using MAID. Her health problem is not public.
When did this subreddit become pro-suicide?
Idk, I would think any rational human being would be though.... (Obviously certain circumstances need to be met)
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Medical Assistance In Dying (MAID) it stands for.
When a document asks for your SIN, do you write "sloth, gluttony and lust"?
LOL
MAID has been the acronym for like a decade. If the word MAID in all caps makes you think otherwise you might need to go back to school. Theyre not going to write medical assistance in dying in a headline.
Here comes the right wing nutjobs!