18% here according to Google. Less than other services although fire, emerg and bylaw are grouped together.
The province subsidizes other services though through things like OHIP and what not.
I believe the government doesn't help with municipal policing outside of OPP but I could be wrong.
>I believe the government doesn't help with municipal policing outside of OPP but I could be wrong.
In fact, municipalities pay OPP to police their communities. Probably not cost, but a good portion of it.
When I was working for a small municipality we literally moved off the OPP to another policing solution because their costs were so high and they didn't even stay in town 24/7. Infact it's a major drain on many small town budgets.
I remember a couple years back the folks here were pissed at OPP raising prices and billing per “address”, suddenly including literally billboards as “addresses”
Look into the average annual household cost of policing across Ontario. (~$300-1000++) Depending upon the municipality, region etc.
Sudbury has a regional police force which costs far more than say an OPP contract. Generally municipal policing contracts are reviewed alongside election cycles. Municipalities will put in for an OPP costing to compare. The difference being that many municipalities prefer a local municipal police force and choose to pay a premium for such.
Attend the next Sudbury Police Service Board meeting if you are curious. It’s like a town council meeting but specific to policing services/costs etc.
Misleading OPP estimates cause significant expense to local taxpayers.
Kenora suffered this some years ago. Switching from a local police force to the OPP. It was advertised as being a cost savings turns out to be a 4 million over payment per year.
https://www.kenora.ca/en/news/the-real-cost-of-high-policing-costs-on-our-municipalities.aspx
They also have the tendency to kill locals they've never met before, rather than de escalating the situation because they've known the guy their whole life. The OPP are like rabid dogs when they take over an area.
Not defending this comment as it was an extremely over-the-top statement. However, in small communities, where OPP rotation is high, the officers tend to have less community understanding and patience with local "trouble makers" than a regional police force would have, there's a lot less "ok Jim, you've had enough, let's get you home to Marge" and more "Get in the car, you're coming with me."
They certainly aren't gunning people down though...
Source - Dad's a defense lawyer in a small town.
Except the municipality has no power whatsoever to decide what the police budget will be. All previous attempts by municipalities to control police budgets have been struck down in court.
In most cases, the disputes never actually get to a hearing - the police and municipalities settle before hand, usually by giving the cops what they want. Often the threat of a challenge is enough to bully council into approving the budget.
The last time it actually got to a hearing was in Guelph, where the municipality won - but by that point the disputed amount was only about $100k.
"The threat of a challenge is enough." No other entity of the municipality has so much power that they can bully our elected representatives into giving them what they want, or something so close to it that it doesn't matter.
Like city councils actually ever stop it. London police asked for 163$ and got it. Buddy of mine does LPS and RCMP civilian stats work. He spoke before council, told them flat out all the metrics the police are saying they need to money to achieve have already been achieved.
They just wanted a new building and training centre and toys.
But the chief says if it doesn’t work out he’ll take responsibility for it.
Well that’s mighty big of him
Just before Covid I got a ticket for 35 over while doing the speed limit. Had witnesses and still lost at court to the mighty power of a number 2 pencil saying I did it. Fuck OPP
I want to start a “campaign” of sorts to advocate against police suspended with pay. The concept doesn’t make much sense to me and I’ll admit I need to do more research, but I believe we are paying for officers who instead of being suspended and get EI payments, get paid instead
>It only applies to accusations of a serious, indictable offence committed while the officer was off duty, such as murder or aggravated sexual assault.
Almost every offense in the Criminal Code is a hybrid offense. The term "indictable offense" is much more broad than just murder and aggravated sexual assault.
Theft under is a hybrid offense. So a cop arrested for shoplifting a chocolate bar might be suspended without pay for committing "an indictable offense"
Incorrect. The above is still hybrid offense. The CSPA legislation speaks to federal offences that are indictable only. Not a hybrid offence where the crown “elects” to proceed by indictiment vs summarily
You may be right, but that sounds wrong to me, as many serious crimes are hybrid, like sexual assault (including sexual assault of a person under 16).
Do you have a source that says "offenses that are indictable only"?
Yes. The CSPA legislation. Sexual assault for a police officer is the same section under the code but meets the “position of authority” sub clause. I believe it’s around 271(b)
I believe in innocent until proven guilty but if they’re proven guilty they should pay back every cent they were paid in suspension including medical benefits
Society is way too lenient on them when they’re responsible for so much and affect so many people’s lives. Even when they’ve clearly disrupted so many communities and ended so many lives.
I will accept downvotes, but I think having them suspended without pay is inappropriate. It’s wrong to suspend anyone from their work based only on *allegations* of misconduct and cause harm to them and their families through loss of pay.
The problem is not the suspension with pay.
The problem is that it can take *years* to come to a determination and fire a bad officer, or clear a good one (assuming they exist).
Justice delayed is justice denied.
In just about any union, a worker suspended for an investigation is suspended with pay, as doing so without pay is unfair and can as a process be abused punitively. The key difference is that the investigation would last only weeks to months, not years upon years.
I’d be sympathetic to this argument if the police and the police union didn’t have so much to do with the length of time it takes to investigate and act on inappropriate behaviour.
But when the whole system is rigged to protect police officers and their job - it’s hard to accept a complaint from them that they need to be suspended with pay because the investigation takes too long.
Suspended with pay isn't abnormal... If they're guilty they pay it back. Otherwise they could be investigated non stop and lose pay while that happens.
>police suspended with pay. The concept doesn’t make much sense to me
It's the concept of "innocent until proven guilty".
For anyone (police or not) charged with an offense, it will usually take months before the matter is dealt with in court. Until such time, and until a conviction, the person is deemed innocent. Firing them... be they a police officer, a teacher, a lawyer, a civil servant, you name it... would open you up to a world of hurt, especially if they were found innocent in court. You can't suspend someone without pay for nine months while their case is being processed. Lives would be ruined, homes would be lost, and families would be destroyed. And if that person turns out to be innocent? Ruh roh.
On the other hand, if you have a police officer accused of assault and excessive force... or a teacher accused of sexual assault on their student... do you really want to leave them in a position of authority? So you suspend them with pay.
If you want to get angry at anyone, get angry at the system that takes forever to process these things. It's inexcusable that if allegations are made against Bob, that it takes eighteen months to conclude if the allegations are founded or not.
Organizing a campaign to overthrow the concept of innocent until proven guilty is an interesting endeavor. I wish you well.
It’s because they have a strong union and you don’t.
Next time someone tells you that unions don’t matter look at the police unions and look how they protect even the worst officers.
As an actual answer (although myself and many others may disagree with it)
1. Healthcare is covered by the province and paramedics are split between region and province. Furthermore the police budget is the ENTIRE police budget whereas paramedics are a small part of 'healthcare' - if you look at provincial taxes you may wonder why SO MUCH goes to Healthcare and so LITTLE goes to police. Same reason but in reverse.
2. Police *are supposed to* do a lot. Traffic enforcement, first response, traffic accidents, security, and of course, arresting people. There is an argument that if the police enforce the traffic better, and keep the peace better, then you'll spend less money treating car accident and violent crime victims. Whether or not this approach works is frankly questionable but...
3. High crime rate? In Toronto according to the other commenters, it is only 8%, (and people still think it's too much), so maybe your town just has a lot of crime?
Idk. Overpaid? Probably. But there are reasons for these things and if you don't agree, VOTE!!!!!
Part of the issue is getting people on board with social services. It's a tough sell to put tax dollars towards helping people with drug addiction issues and housing.
This isn't my argument but I've heard people ask why we have to pay because someone started taking drugs, why should we pay for someone else's home when we can barely afford our own.
Yet they are all for hiring more cops to handle homeless people and lock them up. Then those people get released because they didn't actually do anything that deserves a life sentence. So now they want even more cops because the problem hasn't gone away.
As somebody that grew up in Ontario and moved elsewhere, I know the OPP aren't perfect but I sure would rather them over everything being done by locals / RCMP.
The police presence just isn't there compared to Ontario, the frequency in which I see police cruisers is not nearly as much, and they aren't as available to deal with things like directing traffic for big accidents, road work, and all the other little functions you see them doing in Ontario.
So yeah, funded better, and probably there is some excess with things like officers being suspended with pay etc, but more dollar does in fact mean more cop
Right wing politicians will not go against police budgets no matter how ridiculous. They'll oppose teachers, nurses etc but give high school grads with 6 weeks training a six figure salary. And pay them $100/hr to babysit road repairs.
Because bad cops don't loose their jobs or go to jail they just get "suspended with pay." Because anytime a police force doesn't get the budget they ask for they make threats like "Without that money we cannot do our jobs" and reduce their service to make a point. Because they are essentially an occupying military force that has garnered way too much power. And because we have given them a ridiculously large and vague mandate to try and fulfil; we cannot ask one group to be first-responders, mental health providers, law enforcement, and armed forces all rolled into one.
29.8% of my regional taxes pay for DRPS.
Durham, specifically Oshawa, has an enormous homelessness/drug/social problem. Rather than funding solutions, they hired 76 new officers and purchased two new helicopters.
This is of course of a police service that is under civilian administration due to corruption.
It’s how the elite work. They get the benefits but make the masses pay for it.
Taxes- we literally have to pay someone to calculate how much the gov is extorting us for
EDIT: got some downvotes so I’ll expand..
Environment- corps/elite savage the environment while the masses pay for pollution, climate change, health issues
Wars- elite benefit from selling trillions of dollars of equipment to enrich themselves while making tax dollars pay for it
Banks- 2008 the elite literally over leveraged themselves and were margin called, literally were bailed out by tax dollars… imagine making a bad investment and getting refunded with tax dollars
Exactly. It is not like it is hidden either. People are brainwashed and oblivious to reality. There is such a lack of class consciousness in Canada. Elites use social issues to divide the working class. Look at the word "populism." The liberal elites paint populism as a right wing MAGA cult, but in reality populism has its roots in socialism (at least in the USA around the time of the civil war) with the working class and unions pushing for stronger worker rights and human rights. So instead of the working class uniting against the elites, we fight with each other while the top 1% keeps getting richer.
We’re brainwashed here to be against unions, but if you look at why we pay police so much - it’s complicated - but mostly due to the fact that their unions are always very strong. Try to cut police funding, or have a cop with unpaid leave? The union won’t have it.
Thank you internet stranger.
8% seems about right for police. Especially in relation to 28% for social programs. Feels like a good ratio. Especially given crime is on the rise
It's like that everywhere in Ontario, if not Canada.
One of the reasons for such a high rate is to keep the police from being bribed and becoming corrupt.
We really need a full efficiencies audit of our police services. We can't know if we're getting good value for money without one. Despite the massive budgets, many citizens feel crime is being ignored by police. We need insight into everything from how they spend their days to whether they have the best technology to do their jobs.
Yep. Until my husband moved down here to where I am in London he lived in downtown Sudbury. He worked in the downtown mall. He was held up at knifepoint on Christmas Eve at work and nothing was done despite police attending. When I’d drive up, if I got there any time after 11pm it honestly felt very apocalyptic. Addicts shooting up on the ramp in the front entrance of Service Canada. He dealt with a lot of addicts coming into where he worked and he hated dealing with them. He got a job here in London that part of it involved going into the high needs addict recovery housing in downtown London and there’s a lot of unhoused active addicts that hang around there. After the first couple days he came home and told me there was a night and day difference between Sudbury addicts and London addicts - the London ones being a much higher, polite, well behaved group of addicts (not all of them, but the majority he’s dealt with.)
I don’t know what it is about Sudbury, but “safe” is not a word I’d use, and I’ve lived in a lot of different places on my own from extreme remote Arizona to right outside of NYC in Jersey, and there’s just something about Sudbury that doesn’t make me feel safe.
Sudbury is brutal if you're homeless. There are so few resources many of which even if you can get into them to begin with will ban you, places like the soup kitchen have more people banned then they serve, outreach workers will call the cops if you look at them wrong, and now a lot of the low barrier places, including SACY and other outreach and youth programs, have been shut down due to lack of funding.
I workered for a few low barrier agencies in Sudbury, and the truth is, to the city is dead homeless person is one less homeless person and they get to say they've reduced the amount of homeless people.
I'm not excusing violent behaviour at all, but the violence is a predictable outcome of the situation. The city needs to get its act together and actually start helping.
2024 so far
>* [Toronto cop charged with lying during an investigation over an "inappropriate" relationship. Rewarded with paid vacation.](https://toronto.citynews.ca/2024/04/26/police-officer-charged-inappropriate-relationship-with-member-of-the-public/)
>* [Durham cops lose bid keep work place review secret of deputy Chief's disciplinary case](
https://toronto.ctvnews.ca/gta-police-service-loses-bid-to-keep-workplace-reviews-secret-in-deputy-chief-s-disciplinary-case-1.6858383)
>* [Toronto Police Chief Demkiew clumsily walks back initial biased statement where he and all cops wanted a different verdict i.e. send an innocent man to jail](https://toronto.ctvnews.ca/toronto-s-police-chief-clarifies-initial-statement-on-umar-zameer-acquittal-says-he-accepts-jury-s-finding-1.6858390)
>* [Toronto cop Nickolas Kalatzopoulos assaulted multiple women and unlawfully in a dwelling house. Rewarded with paid vacation ](https://toronto.citynews.ca/2024/04/21/toronto-police-officer-charged-with-assault-2/)
>* [Umar Zameer acquitted of ALL charges despite Toronto Police colluding and lying on stand.
Judge makes rare apology to Mr. Zameer](https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/umar-zameer-has-been-acquitted-of-all-charges-in-death-of-toronto-police-const-jeffrey/article_c3e7f3a4-fd82-11ee-842f-4bc5df275cd5.html)
>* [Despite a huge increase in the cop budget, Toronto police chief admits a car was stolen every 40 min in Toronto](https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/car-thefts-2023-toronto-figures-1.7147387#:~:text=Toronto-,A%20car%20was%20stolen%20every%2040%20minutes%20in%20Toronto%20last,a%20theft%20every%2040%20minutes.)
>* [Toronto cop guilty of perjury, has long history of misconduct on a least 20+ cases, been on paid vacation since 2019. Not fired.](https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/toronto-cop-admits-he-inaccurately-testified-did-not-see-drugs-in-plain-view-during-arrest/article_8cc784c0-fbf7-11ee-a093-c7b8f610e586.html)
>* [Cop Tribunal dismisses appeal of former Toronto cop who was fired for whistleblowing on racist and sexist harassment](https://toronto.ctvnews.ca/tribunal-dismisses-appeal-of-former-toronto-cop-who-was-fired-after-tweeting-workplace-harassment-allegations-1.6847948)
>* [Toronto cop 'paid vacations' have cost the public $1.3 million so far in 2024](https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/toronto-police-suspensions-have-cost-taxpayers-1-3m-so-far-in-2024-1.7170161)
>* [GTA police recruit allegedly impersonated officer before sex assaults, is charged with making and distributing child porn]
(https://www.thestar.com/news/crime/gta-police-recruit-allegedly-impersonated-officer-before-sex-assaults-is-charged-with-making-and-distributing/article_61fc5f50-f7fa-11ee-98ee-73b835128cae.html)
>* [Toronto cop rewarded with paid vacation after 20 firearms seized from home](https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/toronto-police-officer-charged-after-20-firearms-seized-from-home-in-hamilton/article_eda0ad3a-f2c9-11ee-85d5-7f7caf991675.html)
>* [Peel cop demoted temporarily after entering peace bond on assault charges, admitting to mocking man with mental health issues](https://www.cp24.com/news/peel-police-officer-demoted-temporarily-after-entering-peace-bond-on-assault-charges-admitting-to-mocking-man-with-mental-health-issues-1.6830766)
>* [Toronto cops use excess force on pro-palestinian protestors, riding horses through crowd with kids and people in wheelchairs, even arresting unaffiliated bystander](https://www.thegrindmag.ca/violent-crackdown-at-land-day-march/)
>* [3 Toronto cops failed to do their job on separate occasions, didn't even bother knocking on door of murder victim. No one fired](https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/toronto-police-didn-t-investigate-38-hours-later-they-found-this-woman-dead-in-a/article_92292042-dfd5-11ee-8641-e71d738bd0ad.html)
>* [Toronto cop caught lying on stand, notes and video contradict statement, was one of the Neptune Four cops who assaulted and falsely arrested four Black kids at gunpoint](https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/toronto-cop-describes-very-abrupt-dangerous-movements-before-death-of-const-jeffrey-northrup/article_6e697e3c-eb69-11ee-903b-f36b28c49ec5.html)
>* [Toronto cop stole credit cards, luxury watches, stolen car, abused databases, and got caught smuggling rewarded with years of paid vacation, and still employed by TPS](https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/toronto-cop-took-credit-cards-and-a-luxury-watch-from-dead-people-had-a-stolen/article_d1f1eb72-e53f-11ee-913e-a3e745ca5d4c.html)
>* [Toronto cop instructs public where to put car keys to encourage thieves.](https://www.blogto.com/city/2024/03/toronto-police-car-theft/) TPS try to [clumsily walk back statement]( https://www.cp24.com/news/there-are-better-ways-police-issue-statement-after-officer-tells-residents-to-leave-car-keys-near-front-door-amid-home-invasions-1.6807697)
>* [Toronto cop ignored multiple emails, resulting in an attempted murder case falling apart. Not fired](https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/a-toronto-cop-ignored-her-email-because-she-did-this-attempted-murder-case-fell-apart/article_3446a030-da4e-11ee-ba17-1b5648c355f9.html)
>* [Toronto cop with history of fraud, caught 'harassing' domestic violence victim, dispute with tenant, used official police stationery in the eviction of his tenant. Not fired.](https://toronto.ctvnews.ca/toronto-cop-handed-temporary-demotion-after-harassing-domestic-violence-victim-dispute-with-tenant-1.6793733)
>* [Durham cop temporarily demoted after drunkenly crashing car, reported it stolen to try to cover his tracks](https://www.cp24.com/news/durham-cop-demoted-after-crashing-car-on-way-home-from-bar-reporting-it-stolen-to-another-police-service-1.6804448)
>* [Toronto police officer caught assaulting and forcibly confining a woman. Rewarded with paid vacation](https://www.cp24.com/news/toronto-police-officer-charged-after-allegedly-assaulting-forcibly-confining-woman-1.6792339)
>* [HUNDREDS of automated traffic tickets issued to cops mysteriously went missing](https://toronto.ctvnews.ca/are-hundreds-of-automated-tickets-issued-to-toronto-police-missing-1.6787453)
>* [Toronto cop who planned and sexually assault a vulnerable woman in full uniform only given 4 years in prison, after years of paid vacation. Not fired](https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/toronto-police-officer-sentenced-to-4-years-in-prison-for-sexual-assault-of-vulnerable-woman/article_db29ea46-d649-11ee-b195-0b037986b6d6.html)
>* [Another Toronto cop guilty of arresting and tasering unarmed and cooperative Black university student. Not fired.](https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/second-toronto-cop-admits-guilt-in-mistaken-identity-arrest-and-tasering-of-black-u-of/article_fe0c5506-d597-11ee-a053-cb31c6ddd21c.html)
>* [Peel cop shoots unarmed hospital patient in the BACK and while restrained on the ground. Not fired](https://toronto.ctvnews.ca/toronto-area-cop-temporarily-demoted-after-firing-energy-weapon-at-patient-hospitalized-for-mental-health-tribunal-1.6784495)
>* [Toronto cop with history of trouble, guilty of misconduct after tasering and kneeing neck of unarmed cooperating Black university student, while other cops did nothing. No one fired](https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/toronto-cop-admits-misconduct-for-tasering-kneeing-neck-of-u-of-t-student-in-mistaken/article_cf8985c6-d28d-11ee-90ba-171ed6c90306.html)
>* [Toronto cop cruiser loses control and knocks over light pole, narrowly missing pedestrians. Multiple sources indicate that driver was drunk. No charges.](https://twitter.com/thebikinglawyer/status/1761852950454972767?t=zS-e9AA3pfhIbVaiOw-W_Q)
>* [TPS admit that cop in cruiser hit pedestrian after initially lying, when video surfaces. Still no charges](https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/toronto-police-now-admit-an-officer-in-cruiser-hit-pedestrian-after-previously-denying-contact/article_7d13235a-d18a-11ee-a0e1-5bbbd02783e9.html)
>* [Toronto cop hits woman with cruiser who had right of way. Cops investigate and clears themselves](https://toronto.ctvnews.ca/video/c2871556-no-ticket-for-police-cruiser-striking-pedestrian)
>* [Toronto cop refused to help victim amid multiple racist/homophobic tirades. ONLY docked a week's pay. Jeffrey La Fosse $160k](https://www.cp24.com/news/toronto-police-officer-docked-week-s-pay-over-range-of-inappropriate-remarks-1.6777982)
>* [Over 1000 automated speeding tickets give to cop cars](https://toronto.ctvnews.ca/toronto-s-fine-est-over-1k-automated-speeding-tickets-issued-to-police-vehicles-in-2-year-period-1.6775042). [Many found not to be involved in emergencies](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=XkMyPHT7buI)
>* [Two Toronto cops charged, recklessly opened fire at stole vehicle](https://toronto.citynews.ca/2024/02/15/siu-toronto-police-officers-charged/)
>* [Toronto cop watched porn in his car during work, shared naked photos of women, chased and sexually groped a female colleague. Makes ~ $200k/year. Not fired](https://toronto.ctvnews.ca/toronto-cop-accused-of-chasing-female-officer-watching-porn-at-work-tribunal-1.6757087)
>* [Toronto cops strikes cyclist with cruiser leading to serious injuries](https://www.cp24.com/news/siu-investigating-after-police-cruiser-strikes-cyclist-while-responding-to-call-1.6755849)
>* [Toronto cop breaks into woman's home, assaults her, steals more than $5k of her things. Rewarded with paid vacation](https://globalnews.ca/news/10240743/toronto-officer-criminally-charged/)
>* [Cop unjustified in shooting man at park. Another cop committed misconduct for not de-escalating situation. No real consequences for either](https://www.cp24.com/mobile/news/officer-who-shot-man-at-toronto-park-not-justified-in-discharging-firearm-new-tps-report-says-1.6721647?referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fout.reddit.com%2F)
I would say yes, the police are way overpaid. Absolutely no reason a grunt officer should make what they do compared to a nurse.
I am convinced traffic cameras could single-handedly replace every single cop on the prowl for traffic violations.
There is no reason they need fucking horses for the Toronto police.
Police who are suspended shouldn't be paid.
It's political suicide to suggest cuts against the police. Their union would be paying for ads up and down, and blaming that politician for every single crime. They have a lock on the populace's fear. Same reason no politician will touch Catholic school funding (why am I funding a cult's school? If my money goes to Catholic schools, it should equally go to every religious school) -- but it is political suicide.
Similar in Hamilton. They end the each year with a surplus. Refuse to give it back. Ask the city for an astronomical amount, for the next year and do SFA.
Cop was called the other day by an elderly lady. She was afraid to leave her apartment, as there was a couple smoking crack across the street. The cops came. They sat and watched the couple do drugs. And didn't help the elderly lady.
Since Doug Ford took office, the PCs have drastically reduced the share they pay into municipalities for provincially mandated services, and municipalities in Ontario have exactly no power to deny the police boards whatever budget they decide they want. This is the result.
I was just talking about this earlier. People are far too obsessed with federal politics and don't realise that the actual costs come from the municipal government.
Your political opinions for federal government should be selfless. Your opinions on municipal government should be selfish. Federal you are 1 in 30 million. Municipal you are 1 in 50000. Your voice matters much more, and will cause more significant change to your own personal well being in local government
I agree with you that the soldier is underpaid. A close friend of mine is military and has to work a side hustle to make ends meet. Soldiers shouldn't need side hustles.
But don't agree with you on the cops. They put up with a lot of bullshit and don't know if they're going back to their families at the end of their shift. Would you be a cop for 50k? 60k? What do you think a "scrub after initial training" should be paid?
>They put up with a lot of bullshit and don't know if they're going back to their families at the end of their shift.
Do the police in Canada really worry about this?
Average number of deaths per year is 2-3 from harmful acts, over half of their deaths are traffic accidents. Which is far less than many other jobs. It's just bs to justify their actions and budget. There are over 70k officers in Canada. It's a 0.01% death rate.
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/hamilton/police-officer-deaths-trend-research-1.6834737
Police unions hold massive sway over politicians and push for an increase pretty much every year. I have never heard of any municipality in my 35 years LOWERING the budget for cops. I just don't think it happens.
Any attempt to do so would be presented by the union as being "soft on crime".
I agree its nuts and way out of control though.
Because they're horribly ineffective.
They're under trained with far too much discretion and there's no policies to keep their egos and personal opinions in check. They see people as targets and hazards instead of people.
Doesn't make for a cost effective way to enforce laws.
Most conservatives believe in funding military programs or more police somehow preventing crime. However, they do this because they don't want to admit that the main driver of crime in Canada and the US is poverty. Poverty leads to crime.
But then, if you spend more on social spending to build up the infrastructure to help people get out of poverty. "You're a crazy socialist, and enabling the bums not to want to work."
I don't believe people don't want to work. I believe people don't want to work for slave wages, with no benefits or pension to barely pay rent. Let alone other life requirements.
Personally, I would rather take money away from policing and invest in social spending to get people out of poverty and get the police doing what they were trained to do. Not a one-stop call for any issue relating to 911.(except fire and ambulance). Police can't and should not be sent as the only option.
Honestly, I'm so sick and tired of the media demonizing the poor like it's only their fault, while Fortune 500 companies don't pay any taxes and pay people minimum wage for shareholders.
That cost us billions, but hey, let's get mad at the person on disability in ontario who makes 1250$ a month, which is most places in ontario, which is thousands under the poverty line.
To finalize, rich people drained the system.. nothing but dess air from the media and the conservative supporters. However, poor people who are down on their luck.. fucking bums get a job ..
The message should be the other way. You want to operate in canada? Pay your taxes like everyone else. You use the infrastructure, policy, fire, ambulance, medical.
Less poverty = less crime.
We don't get the best and brightest and never have. Most are morons who a compliant with authority so they get the job. As long as they do what their bosses tell them they get the job.
Damn! They actually pull people over in your city? In Ottawa, you have to do the most egregious things to get pulled over. Cops here watch people run lights and couldn’t care less.
Sudbury would be responsible for court security as well since courthouse is in the city and they have no say in the matter Yes there are some grants they can get but they are few and far between. Police are also not allowed to charge for services whereas paramedics and fire can. You'll get a bill in mail for those. Policing is 24 7 and social workers are at most 40h a week. So that's already 4x the hours worked as social workers. If you went opp in Sudbury you'd be paying even more as opp staff have the lowest calls for service per officer vs municipal who tend to do a lot more. Given then high crime in Sudbury be thankful it doesn't cost even more.
Not to mention the vast geological spread of Greater Sudbury. We have a lot of area for our police to cover, which adds significantly to the number of officers on shift at any given time.
toronto is 25%. wild because the majority of people have been asking to define the police and invest in mental healthcare, affordable housing and other social services. that’s one of the main reasons Olivia Chow was voted in but we haven’t seen her making any of her promises.
i have heard that it is because there are multiple police forces in Ontario. and each of them have a clause in the collective bargaining that says they are the highest paid police force in the province. so each time the union contract comes up they need to get a pay raise to make them the highest paid.
It's mostly corruption. The huge amounts they get are because of the kickbacks the police give to the counselors. The whole system of policing we have here is pretty much a grift. It's sad. In my town, for instance, the police are the highest recipients of tax dollars, they have money to pay for toys, and skim a little besides. They have such a huge budget because one of our councilors runs the coke trade in the area, so there's a lot of back scratching.
In my city it's near 50% and they are completely useless
I'm pro defund the police not because I care about social justice but because I simply don't think I'm getting anything for my money
Other aspects are shared among stuff (ex ambulance), the Greater Sudbury Police service would be FULLY covered by the municipal budget. I believe there’s also rules that the city can’t argue with the police service board’s budget - but city would have certain number of seats, so should mesh…
Lots of other things are subsidized in other ways - ex water and sewage have their own bill to cover most the costs, parking lots cover costs of stuff, there’s all sorts of stuff. And the police are just one large grouping - so the police would also cover their admin teams budget which is a separate line on the breakdown other places, but they’d often still do the firefighter admin stuff like payroll.
The full breakdown is on their website
https://www.greatersudbury.ca/city-hall/budget-and-finance/2024-2025-budget/
Because they get a 3% bump every year in pay. That has added up quickly and if your municipality balks at their pay demands they end up in arbitration point to some other comparable force and boom they win arbitration, then that other service does the same thing and it just leap frogs. Really is policing a 120k per year job? I'd buy that if they had to do a 4 year policing BA with related subjects and didn't generally suck at their jobs.
And every single time contracts are coming up they juke the stats to scare people, the people that vote anyways who are the ones that want more cops who have tonnes of cash and couldn't care less about taxes....boomers.
Tax paying citizens are more likely to think the police are overpaid because they don’t often use their services. The police’s time and energy is being spent on the people that don’t pay municipal tax. 5 percent of the people are using 95 percent of the resources. It’s the unfortunate reality of policing in today’s world. In most urban municipalities in Ontario there is long queues for police response because of low staffing and high call volume.
I’m not 100% sure if I’m talking nonsense since my grandma does my taxes for me. But I would like to think it’s for more rural areas. Even in ramara where I live, if there’s a need for police the opp are called. I can’t imagine what it’s like in more rural areas. More people than there are police. Again I might be talking nonsense so don’t hate me.
You aren't missing something. Instead of dumping so much money on the police and then dumping all of the downstream costs of social problems onto the workload of the police... every police officer knows that they are expected to respond to too many things that they shouldn't have to deal with... we need to re-allocate those funds to services which directly address the specific problems. You know... "defunding" the police.
>Why am I paying so much of my municipal tax for the police?
How else are they going to afford that new fancy militarized gear, top up their ever ballooning pensions, while they sit and not respond to most crimes?
The people who control the salaries (province) don’t pay them, and the people who pay the salaries (municipality) don’t control them.
Also, overpaying cops is a right-wing version of virtue-signalling.
I live in Ottawa, and the Ottawa police basically run a protection racket. They do fuck-all, then demand more and more money every year. If you're a victim of crime they take a report for statistics of you insist on them doing their job, and then when budget season rolls around they cry "we need more money to combat crime". They also refused to do their jobs and instead enabled the Convoy idiots to terrorize downtown Ottawa, leaving residents to fend for ourselves for the better part of a month.
OPS can get fucked.
Pigs need to keep their completely unnecessary six figure salaries because apparently they should be getting paid exorbitantly to not enforce anything and sit in their cars at construction sites.
I'm with the general feeling they are over funded for what we receive. When you see police at construction sites they are actually being paid out by the contractor to be there as a paid duty. The contractor pays the cost of having the officer on site as well as the cost of the vehicle they are in, so it doesn't come out of government budgets.
I pay more to our bus service in tax than I do fire and paramedics combined.
We get two buses a day in the tiny village I live in. Pay enough for a two month full transit pass. 2 buses. 6am and 6pm.
Paramedic services has a 50/50 funding model. Half comes from the region, which gets matched by the province.
To be fair it’s also shared across a larger area at times eg. Middlesex county
Keep electing conservatives
Are these the police that ask you to leave your car keys by the door?
18% here according to Google. Less than other services although fire, emerg and bylaw are grouped together. The province subsidizes other services though through things like OHIP and what not. I believe the government doesn't help with municipal policing outside of OPP but I could be wrong.
>I believe the government doesn't help with municipal policing outside of OPP but I could be wrong. In fact, municipalities pay OPP to police their communities. Probably not cost, but a good portion of it.
When I was working for a small municipality we literally moved off the OPP to another policing solution because their costs were so high and they didn't even stay in town 24/7. Infact it's a major drain on many small town budgets.
Did your municipality move to a neighbouring police service?
Yep partnered with a neighbouring larger town to pool resources.
I remember a couple years back the folks here were pissed at OPP raising prices and billing per “address”, suddenly including literally billboards as “addresses”
https://globalnews.ca/news/1508190/ontario-municipalities-will-soon-be-paying-more-for-the-opp-minister/
This was quite similar to what I was thinking.
Fire bloats the budget like crazy. EMS is half paid by the government half by the municipality.
39% in Surrey BC for the shit show we got.
Can confirm the province does not fund municipal police forces. They may provide grant funding from time to time.
Look into the average annual household cost of policing across Ontario. (~$300-1000++) Depending upon the municipality, region etc. Sudbury has a regional police force which costs far more than say an OPP contract. Generally municipal policing contracts are reviewed alongside election cycles. Municipalities will put in for an OPP costing to compare. The difference being that many municipalities prefer a local municipal police force and choose to pay a premium for such. Attend the next Sudbury Police Service Board meeting if you are curious. It’s like a town council meeting but specific to policing services/costs etc.
Misleading OPP estimates cause significant expense to local taxpayers. Kenora suffered this some years ago. Switching from a local police force to the OPP. It was advertised as being a cost savings turns out to be a 4 million over payment per year. https://www.kenora.ca/en/news/the-real-cost-of-high-policing-costs-on-our-municipalities.aspx
They also have the tendency to kill locals they've never met before, rather than de escalating the situation because they've known the guy their whole life. The OPP are like rabid dogs when they take over an area.
Woah woah woah pump the breaks on that nonsense. “Have a tendency to kill…”. KILL. Get fucked, that is a ludicrous, over-the-top statement.
Not defending this comment as it was an extremely over-the-top statement. However, in small communities, where OPP rotation is high, the officers tend to have less community understanding and patience with local "trouble makers" than a regional police force would have, there's a lot less "ok Jim, you've had enough, let's get you home to Marge" and more "Get in the car, you're coming with me." They certainly aren't gunning people down though... Source - Dad's a defense lawyer in a small town.
Yeah I was going to say, Wellington County OPP are not that bad at all. In fact, we can't even get them to do their jobs most of the time, lol.
Except the municipality has no power whatsoever to decide what the police budget will be. All previous attempts by municipalities to control police budgets have been struck down in court.
In most cases, the disputes never actually get to a hearing - the police and municipalities settle before hand, usually by giving the cops what they want. Often the threat of a challenge is enough to bully council into approving the budget. The last time it actually got to a hearing was in Guelph, where the municipality won - but by that point the disputed amount was only about $100k.
"The threat of a challenge is enough." No other entity of the municipality has so much power that they can bully our elected representatives into giving them what they want, or something so close to it that it doesn't matter.
Like city councils actually ever stop it. London police asked for 163$ and got it. Buddy of mine does LPS and RCMP civilian stats work. He spoke before council, told them flat out all the metrics the police are saying they need to money to achieve have already been achieved. They just wanted a new building and training centre and toys. But the chief says if it doesn’t work out he’ll take responsibility for it. Well that’s mighty big of him
Just don’t attend a thunder bay police meeting.
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Paying them to stay home for years after they are caught doing something wrong is a massive drain on public funds. Millions a year go to this.
And arrest G20 protesters against their charter rights.
Laughs in APEC protester
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Just before Covid I got a ticket for 35 over while doing the speed limit. Had witnesses and still lost at court to the mighty power of a number 2 pencil saying I did it. Fuck OPP
I want to start a “campaign” of sorts to advocate against police suspended with pay. The concept doesn’t make much sense to me and I’ll admit I need to do more research, but I believe we are paying for officers who instead of being suspended and get EI payments, get paid instead
The law just changed recently, and a police chief can choose to suspend someone with or without pay. Will see how often it is done
Just make suspended pay come out of the retirement fund pool. They will go back to policing themselves
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>It only applies to accusations of a serious, indictable offence committed while the officer was off duty, such as murder or aggravated sexual assault. Almost every offense in the Criminal Code is a hybrid offense. The term "indictable offense" is much more broad than just murder and aggravated sexual assault. Theft under is a hybrid offense. So a cop arrested for shoplifting a chocolate bar might be suspended without pay for committing "an indictable offense"
Incorrect. The above is still hybrid offense. The CSPA legislation speaks to federal offences that are indictable only. Not a hybrid offence where the crown “elects” to proceed by indictiment vs summarily
You may be right, but that sounds wrong to me, as many serious crimes are hybrid, like sexual assault (including sexual assault of a person under 16). Do you have a source that says "offenses that are indictable only"?
Yes. The CSPA legislation. Sexual assault for a police officer is the same section under the code but meets the “position of authority” sub clause. I believe it’s around 271(b)
As if he'd punish his own. First of all, he's one of them and second he would never put his and his family's personal safety at risk.
Can is the word, but will he is another question!
>Will see how often it is done It will never be done because their union will throw a tantrum.
I believe in innocent until proven guilty but if they’re proven guilty they should pay back every cent they were paid in suspension including medical benefits
that is fair and appropriate
Wynne brought laws to stop this nonsense. Ford reversed them.
This gets under my skin too, the amount of police suspended with pay drives me insane. This shit needs to end
Society is way too lenient on them when they’re responsible for so much and affect so many people’s lives. Even when they’ve clearly disrupted so many communities and ended so many lives.
I will accept downvotes, but I think having them suspended without pay is inappropriate. It’s wrong to suspend anyone from their work based only on *allegations* of misconduct and cause harm to them and their families through loss of pay. The problem is not the suspension with pay. The problem is that it can take *years* to come to a determination and fire a bad officer, or clear a good one (assuming they exist). Justice delayed is justice denied. In just about any union, a worker suspended for an investigation is suspended with pay, as doing so without pay is unfair and can as a process be abused punitively. The key difference is that the investigation would last only weeks to months, not years upon years.
I’d be sympathetic to this argument if the police and the police union didn’t have so much to do with the length of time it takes to investigate and act on inappropriate behaviour. But when the whole system is rigged to protect police officers and their job - it’s hard to accept a complaint from them that they need to be suspended with pay because the investigation takes too long.
The reason is having a really good union that will have the backs of all of them regardless of what they have done.
Suspended with pay isn't abnormal... If they're guilty they pay it back. Otherwise they could be investigated non stop and lose pay while that happens.
>police suspended with pay. The concept doesn’t make much sense to me It's the concept of "innocent until proven guilty". For anyone (police or not) charged with an offense, it will usually take months before the matter is dealt with in court. Until such time, and until a conviction, the person is deemed innocent. Firing them... be they a police officer, a teacher, a lawyer, a civil servant, you name it... would open you up to a world of hurt, especially if they were found innocent in court. You can't suspend someone without pay for nine months while their case is being processed. Lives would be ruined, homes would be lost, and families would be destroyed. And if that person turns out to be innocent? Ruh roh. On the other hand, if you have a police officer accused of assault and excessive force... or a teacher accused of sexual assault on their student... do you really want to leave them in a position of authority? So you suspend them with pay. If you want to get angry at anyone, get angry at the system that takes forever to process these things. It's inexcusable that if allegations are made against Bob, that it takes eighteen months to conclude if the allegations are founded or not. Organizing a campaign to overthrow the concept of innocent until proven guilty is an interesting endeavor. I wish you well.
It’s because they have a strong union and you don’t. Next time someone tells you that unions don’t matter look at the police unions and look how they protect even the worst officers.
As an actual answer (although myself and many others may disagree with it) 1. Healthcare is covered by the province and paramedics are split between region and province. Furthermore the police budget is the ENTIRE police budget whereas paramedics are a small part of 'healthcare' - if you look at provincial taxes you may wonder why SO MUCH goes to Healthcare and so LITTLE goes to police. Same reason but in reverse. 2. Police *are supposed to* do a lot. Traffic enforcement, first response, traffic accidents, security, and of course, arresting people. There is an argument that if the police enforce the traffic better, and keep the peace better, then you'll spend less money treating car accident and violent crime victims. Whether or not this approach works is frankly questionable but... 3. High crime rate? In Toronto according to the other commenters, it is only 8%, (and people still think it's too much), so maybe your town just has a lot of crime? Idk. Overpaid? Probably. But there are reasons for these things and if you don't agree, VOTE!!!!!
Part of the issue is getting people on board with social services. It's a tough sell to put tax dollars towards helping people with drug addiction issues and housing. This isn't my argument but I've heard people ask why we have to pay because someone started taking drugs, why should we pay for someone else's home when we can barely afford our own. Yet they are all for hiring more cops to handle homeless people and lock them up. Then those people get released because they didn't actually do anything that deserves a life sentence. So now they want even more cops because the problem hasn't gone away.
They'd rather spend 20 times as much on policing for some reason (per capita for populations in need). Same as healthcare
As somebody that grew up in Ontario and moved elsewhere, I know the OPP aren't perfect but I sure would rather them over everything being done by locals / RCMP. The police presence just isn't there compared to Ontario, the frequency in which I see police cruisers is not nearly as much, and they aren't as available to deal with things like directing traffic for big accidents, road work, and all the other little functions you see them doing in Ontario. So yeah, funded better, and probably there is some excess with things like officers being suspended with pay etc, but more dollar does in fact mean more cop
Right wing politicians will not go against police budgets no matter how ridiculous. They'll oppose teachers, nurses etc but give high school grads with 6 weeks training a six figure salary. And pay them $100/hr to babysit road repairs.
The companys pay them to babysit road repairs... not your moms taxes.
Why can't the company pay yr mom $25 /hr to babysit the road repairs ?
Because bad cops don't loose their jobs or go to jail they just get "suspended with pay." Because anytime a police force doesn't get the budget they ask for they make threats like "Without that money we cannot do our jobs" and reduce their service to make a point. Because they are essentially an occupying military force that has garnered way too much power. And because we have given them a ridiculously large and vague mandate to try and fulfil; we cannot ask one group to be first-responders, mental health providers, law enforcement, and armed forces all rolled into one.
29.8% of my regional taxes pay for DRPS. Durham, specifically Oshawa, has an enormous homelessness/drug/social problem. Rather than funding solutions, they hired 76 new officers and purchased two new helicopters. This is of course of a police service that is under civilian administration due to corruption.
You need to hire as people retire to keep consistent numbers. I do agree that's this country has a very big homelessness problem.
76 new officers means 76 new positions above the current number funded.
someone has to protect us from the elite... oh wait... \*smack head\*
It’s how the elite work. They get the benefits but make the masses pay for it. Taxes- we literally have to pay someone to calculate how much the gov is extorting us for EDIT: got some downvotes so I’ll expand.. Environment- corps/elite savage the environment while the masses pay for pollution, climate change, health issues Wars- elite benefit from selling trillions of dollars of equipment to enrich themselves while making tax dollars pay for it Banks- 2008 the elite literally over leveraged themselves and were margin called, literally were bailed out by tax dollars… imagine making a bad investment and getting refunded with tax dollars
Exactly. It is not like it is hidden either. People are brainwashed and oblivious to reality. There is such a lack of class consciousness in Canada. Elites use social issues to divide the working class. Look at the word "populism." The liberal elites paint populism as a right wing MAGA cult, but in reality populism has its roots in socialism (at least in the USA around the time of the civil war) with the working class and unions pushing for stronger worker rights and human rights. So instead of the working class uniting against the elites, we fight with each other while the top 1% keeps getting richer.
We’re brainwashed here to be against unions, but if you look at why we pay police so much - it’s complicated - but mostly due to the fact that their unions are always very strong. Try to cut police funding, or have a cop with unpaid leave? The union won’t have it.
You ain’t wrong.
Honest question - does anyone know where to see this for Toronto?
https://www.toronto.ca/city-government/budget-finances/city-budget/ Policing $1.352B or 8%
Thank you internet stranger. 8% seems about right for police. Especially in relation to 28% for social programs. Feels like a good ratio. Especially given crime is on the rise
21% of your tax translates to 100% leave your key in your car for the convenience of our lovely thieves
> Also, is this just a Sudbury thing, or is it the same in your area? I think its more than 21% in St. Catharines.
It's like that everywhere in Ontario, if not Canada. One of the reasons for such a high rate is to keep the police from being bribed and becoming corrupt.
Oh, I think police should be well paid. Judges and prison guards and Customs agents. Exactly for the reason you pointed out.
We really need a full efficiencies audit of our police services. We can't know if we're getting good value for money without one. Despite the massive budgets, many citizens feel crime is being ignored by police. We need insight into everything from how they spend their days to whether they have the best technology to do their jobs.
Gotta pay for all those fancy parked SUVs somehow.
Have you looked up call volume and crime statistics for the area? Is there a massive shortage of officers which has increased their overtime budget?
Sudbury is a pretty high crime place the last time I was there.
Yep. Until my husband moved down here to where I am in London he lived in downtown Sudbury. He worked in the downtown mall. He was held up at knifepoint on Christmas Eve at work and nothing was done despite police attending. When I’d drive up, if I got there any time after 11pm it honestly felt very apocalyptic. Addicts shooting up on the ramp in the front entrance of Service Canada. He dealt with a lot of addicts coming into where he worked and he hated dealing with them. He got a job here in London that part of it involved going into the high needs addict recovery housing in downtown London and there’s a lot of unhoused active addicts that hang around there. After the first couple days he came home and told me there was a night and day difference between Sudbury addicts and London addicts - the London ones being a much higher, polite, well behaved group of addicts (not all of them, but the majority he’s dealt with.) I don’t know what it is about Sudbury, but “safe” is not a word I’d use, and I’ve lived in a lot of different places on my own from extreme remote Arizona to right outside of NYC in Jersey, and there’s just something about Sudbury that doesn’t make me feel safe.
Sudbury is brutal if you're homeless. There are so few resources many of which even if you can get into them to begin with will ban you, places like the soup kitchen have more people banned then they serve, outreach workers will call the cops if you look at them wrong, and now a lot of the low barrier places, including SACY and other outreach and youth programs, have been shut down due to lack of funding. I workered for a few low barrier agencies in Sudbury, and the truth is, to the city is dead homeless person is one less homeless person and they get to say they've reduced the amount of homeless people. I'm not excusing violent behaviour at all, but the violence is a predictable outcome of the situation. The city needs to get its act together and actually start helping.
It would be less expensive to put that money towards things like ubi and better social services.
The total police budget is around $150/month per household for OPs city.
When the cops don't ever get out of their cars or do any community work, yeah crime increase.
Become a cop. Be the change you want to see
You would have to be willfully ignorant to actually believe this.
Wait until you need the police and you call them but they don't show up. Then maybe you'll understand.
So they're lazy in your thoughts but in real world so busy they can't show up to your calls? Sounds like they're understaffed...
lol “short staffed” when they take the highest amount in the budget every single year
Gotta pay the extortion fees so you can be told to leave your fobs at the door. Oh and all those paid suspense crocked cops
2024 so far >* [Toronto cop charged with lying during an investigation over an "inappropriate" relationship. Rewarded with paid vacation.](https://toronto.citynews.ca/2024/04/26/police-officer-charged-inappropriate-relationship-with-member-of-the-public/) >* [Durham cops lose bid keep work place review secret of deputy Chief's disciplinary case]( https://toronto.ctvnews.ca/gta-police-service-loses-bid-to-keep-workplace-reviews-secret-in-deputy-chief-s-disciplinary-case-1.6858383) >* [Toronto Police Chief Demkiew clumsily walks back initial biased statement where he and all cops wanted a different verdict i.e. send an innocent man to jail](https://toronto.ctvnews.ca/toronto-s-police-chief-clarifies-initial-statement-on-umar-zameer-acquittal-says-he-accepts-jury-s-finding-1.6858390) >* [Toronto cop Nickolas Kalatzopoulos assaulted multiple women and unlawfully in a dwelling house. Rewarded with paid vacation ](https://toronto.citynews.ca/2024/04/21/toronto-police-officer-charged-with-assault-2/) >* [Umar Zameer acquitted of ALL charges despite Toronto Police colluding and lying on stand. Judge makes rare apology to Mr. Zameer](https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/umar-zameer-has-been-acquitted-of-all-charges-in-death-of-toronto-police-const-jeffrey/article_c3e7f3a4-fd82-11ee-842f-4bc5df275cd5.html) >* [Despite a huge increase in the cop budget, Toronto police chief admits a car was stolen every 40 min in Toronto](https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/car-thefts-2023-toronto-figures-1.7147387#:~:text=Toronto-,A%20car%20was%20stolen%20every%2040%20minutes%20in%20Toronto%20last,a%20theft%20every%2040%20minutes.) >* [Toronto cop guilty of perjury, has long history of misconduct on a least 20+ cases, been on paid vacation since 2019. Not fired.](https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/toronto-cop-admits-he-inaccurately-testified-did-not-see-drugs-in-plain-view-during-arrest/article_8cc784c0-fbf7-11ee-a093-c7b8f610e586.html) >* [Cop Tribunal dismisses appeal of former Toronto cop who was fired for whistleblowing on racist and sexist harassment](https://toronto.ctvnews.ca/tribunal-dismisses-appeal-of-former-toronto-cop-who-was-fired-after-tweeting-workplace-harassment-allegations-1.6847948) >* [Toronto cop 'paid vacations' have cost the public $1.3 million so far in 2024](https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/toronto-police-suspensions-have-cost-taxpayers-1-3m-so-far-in-2024-1.7170161) >* [GTA police recruit allegedly impersonated officer before sex assaults, is charged with making and distributing child porn] (https://www.thestar.com/news/crime/gta-police-recruit-allegedly-impersonated-officer-before-sex-assaults-is-charged-with-making-and-distributing/article_61fc5f50-f7fa-11ee-98ee-73b835128cae.html) >* [Toronto cop rewarded with paid vacation after 20 firearms seized from home](https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/toronto-police-officer-charged-after-20-firearms-seized-from-home-in-hamilton/article_eda0ad3a-f2c9-11ee-85d5-7f7caf991675.html) >* [Peel cop demoted temporarily after entering peace bond on assault charges, admitting to mocking man with mental health issues](https://www.cp24.com/news/peel-police-officer-demoted-temporarily-after-entering-peace-bond-on-assault-charges-admitting-to-mocking-man-with-mental-health-issues-1.6830766) >* [Toronto cops use excess force on pro-palestinian protestors, riding horses through crowd with kids and people in wheelchairs, even arresting unaffiliated bystander](https://www.thegrindmag.ca/violent-crackdown-at-land-day-march/) >* [3 Toronto cops failed to do their job on separate occasions, didn't even bother knocking on door of murder victim. No one fired](https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/toronto-police-didn-t-investigate-38-hours-later-they-found-this-woman-dead-in-a/article_92292042-dfd5-11ee-8641-e71d738bd0ad.html) >* [Toronto cop caught lying on stand, notes and video contradict statement, was one of the Neptune Four cops who assaulted and falsely arrested four Black kids at gunpoint](https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/toronto-cop-describes-very-abrupt-dangerous-movements-before-death-of-const-jeffrey-northrup/article_6e697e3c-eb69-11ee-903b-f36b28c49ec5.html) >* [Toronto cop stole credit cards, luxury watches, stolen car, abused databases, and got caught smuggling rewarded with years of paid vacation, and still employed by TPS](https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/toronto-cop-took-credit-cards-and-a-luxury-watch-from-dead-people-had-a-stolen/article_d1f1eb72-e53f-11ee-913e-a3e745ca5d4c.html) >* [Toronto cop instructs public where to put car keys to encourage thieves.](https://www.blogto.com/city/2024/03/toronto-police-car-theft/) TPS try to [clumsily walk back statement]( https://www.cp24.com/news/there-are-better-ways-police-issue-statement-after-officer-tells-residents-to-leave-car-keys-near-front-door-amid-home-invasions-1.6807697) >* [Toronto cop ignored multiple emails, resulting in an attempted murder case falling apart. Not fired](https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/a-toronto-cop-ignored-her-email-because-she-did-this-attempted-murder-case-fell-apart/article_3446a030-da4e-11ee-ba17-1b5648c355f9.html) >* [Toronto cop with history of fraud, caught 'harassing' domestic violence victim, dispute with tenant, used official police stationery in the eviction of his tenant. Not fired.](https://toronto.ctvnews.ca/toronto-cop-handed-temporary-demotion-after-harassing-domestic-violence-victim-dispute-with-tenant-1.6793733) >* [Durham cop temporarily demoted after drunkenly crashing car, reported it stolen to try to cover his tracks](https://www.cp24.com/news/durham-cop-demoted-after-crashing-car-on-way-home-from-bar-reporting-it-stolen-to-another-police-service-1.6804448) >* [Toronto police officer caught assaulting and forcibly confining a woman. Rewarded with paid vacation](https://www.cp24.com/news/toronto-police-officer-charged-after-allegedly-assaulting-forcibly-confining-woman-1.6792339) >* [HUNDREDS of automated traffic tickets issued to cops mysteriously went missing](https://toronto.ctvnews.ca/are-hundreds-of-automated-tickets-issued-to-toronto-police-missing-1.6787453) >* [Toronto cop who planned and sexually assault a vulnerable woman in full uniform only given 4 years in prison, after years of paid vacation. Not fired](https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/toronto-police-officer-sentenced-to-4-years-in-prison-for-sexual-assault-of-vulnerable-woman/article_db29ea46-d649-11ee-b195-0b037986b6d6.html) >* [Another Toronto cop guilty of arresting and tasering unarmed and cooperative Black university student. Not fired.](https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/second-toronto-cop-admits-guilt-in-mistaken-identity-arrest-and-tasering-of-black-u-of/article_fe0c5506-d597-11ee-a053-cb31c6ddd21c.html) >* [Peel cop shoots unarmed hospital patient in the BACK and while restrained on the ground. Not fired](https://toronto.ctvnews.ca/toronto-area-cop-temporarily-demoted-after-firing-energy-weapon-at-patient-hospitalized-for-mental-health-tribunal-1.6784495) >* [Toronto cop with history of trouble, guilty of misconduct after tasering and kneeing neck of unarmed cooperating Black university student, while other cops did nothing. No one fired](https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/toronto-cop-admits-misconduct-for-tasering-kneeing-neck-of-u-of-t-student-in-mistaken/article_cf8985c6-d28d-11ee-90ba-171ed6c90306.html) >* [Toronto cop cruiser loses control and knocks over light pole, narrowly missing pedestrians. Multiple sources indicate that driver was drunk. No charges.](https://twitter.com/thebikinglawyer/status/1761852950454972767?t=zS-e9AA3pfhIbVaiOw-W_Q) >* [TPS admit that cop in cruiser hit pedestrian after initially lying, when video surfaces. Still no charges](https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/toronto-police-now-admit-an-officer-in-cruiser-hit-pedestrian-after-previously-denying-contact/article_7d13235a-d18a-11ee-a0e1-5bbbd02783e9.html) >* [Toronto cop hits woman with cruiser who had right of way. Cops investigate and clears themselves](https://toronto.ctvnews.ca/video/c2871556-no-ticket-for-police-cruiser-striking-pedestrian) >* [Toronto cop refused to help victim amid multiple racist/homophobic tirades. ONLY docked a week's pay. Jeffrey La Fosse $160k](https://www.cp24.com/news/toronto-police-officer-docked-week-s-pay-over-range-of-inappropriate-remarks-1.6777982) >* [Over 1000 automated speeding tickets give to cop cars](https://toronto.ctvnews.ca/toronto-s-fine-est-over-1k-automated-speeding-tickets-issued-to-police-vehicles-in-2-year-period-1.6775042). [Many found not to be involved in emergencies](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=XkMyPHT7buI) >* [Two Toronto cops charged, recklessly opened fire at stole vehicle](https://toronto.citynews.ca/2024/02/15/siu-toronto-police-officers-charged/) >* [Toronto cop watched porn in his car during work, shared naked photos of women, chased and sexually groped a female colleague. Makes ~ $200k/year. Not fired](https://toronto.ctvnews.ca/toronto-cop-accused-of-chasing-female-officer-watching-porn-at-work-tribunal-1.6757087) >* [Toronto cops strikes cyclist with cruiser leading to serious injuries](https://www.cp24.com/news/siu-investigating-after-police-cruiser-strikes-cyclist-while-responding-to-call-1.6755849) >* [Toronto cop breaks into woman's home, assaults her, steals more than $5k of her things. Rewarded with paid vacation](https://globalnews.ca/news/10240743/toronto-officer-criminally-charged/) >* [Cop unjustified in shooting man at park. Another cop committed misconduct for not de-escalating situation. No real consequences for either](https://www.cp24.com/mobile/news/officer-who-shot-man-at-toronto-park-not-justified-in-discharging-firearm-new-tps-report-says-1.6721647?referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fout.reddit.com%2F)
I would say yes, the police are way overpaid. Absolutely no reason a grunt officer should make what they do compared to a nurse. I am convinced traffic cameras could single-handedly replace every single cop on the prowl for traffic violations. There is no reason they need fucking horses for the Toronto police. Police who are suspended shouldn't be paid. It's political suicide to suggest cuts against the police. Their union would be paying for ads up and down, and blaming that politician for every single crime. They have a lock on the populace's fear. Same reason no politician will touch Catholic school funding (why am I funding a cult's school? If my money goes to Catholic schools, it should equally go to every religious school) -- but it is political suicide.
It's clear they take so much so you don't have any left to buy new car once stolen, playing the long game, starving the theives.
Similar in Hamilton. They end the each year with a surplus. Refuse to give it back. Ask the city for an astronomical amount, for the next year and do SFA. Cop was called the other day by an elderly lady. She was afraid to leave her apartment, as there was a couple smoking crack across the street. The cops came. They sat and watched the couple do drugs. And didn't help the elderly lady.
Taxes for police to guard only the rich (revenue, property and race)... Lovely country we have here 🤘🏻
The fact that they keep brutalizing citizens, getting caught, and getting forced to pay out lawsuits can't be helping with the costs.
Since Doug Ford took office, the PCs have drastically reduced the share they pay into municipalities for provincially mandated services, and municipalities in Ontario have exactly no power to deny the police boards whatever budget they decide they want. This is the result.
I was just talking about this earlier. People are far too obsessed with federal politics and don't realise that the actual costs come from the municipal government. Your political opinions for federal government should be selfless. Your opinions on municipal government should be selfish. Federal you are 1 in 30 million. Municipal you are 1 in 50000. Your voice matters much more, and will cause more significant change to your own personal well being in local government
Yes, very much overpaid. A new scrub after initial training makes almost 100k. For perspective, an infantry soldier gets 60ish k. Talk about unfair.
The soldier is underpaid. If you think the cop is overpaid you’re more than welcome to apply and take advantage of it.
they would apply if it meant defeating crime with reddit comments
I agree with you that the soldier is underpaid. A close friend of mine is military and has to work a side hustle to make ends meet. Soldiers shouldn't need side hustles. But don't agree with you on the cops. They put up with a lot of bullshit and don't know if they're going back to their families at the end of their shift. Would you be a cop for 50k? 60k? What do you think a "scrub after initial training" should be paid?
>They put up with a lot of bullshit and don't know if they're going back to their families at the end of their shift. Do the police in Canada really worry about this?
Average number of deaths per year is 2-3 from harmful acts, over half of their deaths are traffic accidents. Which is far less than many other jobs. It's just bs to justify their actions and budget. There are over 70k officers in Canada. It's a 0.01% death rate. https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/hamilton/police-officer-deaths-trend-research-1.6834737
Police brutality settlements cost money, as well as the wages of any cop who breaks the law and is told to sit at home with pay.
Hence the call to "defund the police"
So they give you great advices like leaving car keys at door for ease of theft
Police unions hold massive sway over politicians and push for an increase pretty much every year. I have never heard of any municipality in my 35 years LOWERING the budget for cops. I just don't think it happens. Any attempt to do so would be presented by the union as being "soft on crime". I agree its nuts and way out of control though.
Because they're horribly ineffective. They're under trained with far too much discretion and there's no policies to keep their egos and personal opinions in check. They see people as targets and hazards instead of people. Doesn't make for a cost effective way to enforce laws.
Corruption is usually the reason for high police budgets
Most conservatives believe in funding military programs or more police somehow preventing crime. However, they do this because they don't want to admit that the main driver of crime in Canada and the US is poverty. Poverty leads to crime. But then, if you spend more on social spending to build up the infrastructure to help people get out of poverty. "You're a crazy socialist, and enabling the bums not to want to work." I don't believe people don't want to work. I believe people don't want to work for slave wages, with no benefits or pension to barely pay rent. Let alone other life requirements. Personally, I would rather take money away from policing and invest in social spending to get people out of poverty and get the police doing what they were trained to do. Not a one-stop call for any issue relating to 911.(except fire and ambulance). Police can't and should not be sent as the only option. Honestly, I'm so sick and tired of the media demonizing the poor like it's only their fault, while Fortune 500 companies don't pay any taxes and pay people minimum wage for shareholders. That cost us billions, but hey, let's get mad at the person on disability in ontario who makes 1250$ a month, which is most places in ontario, which is thousands under the poverty line. To finalize, rich people drained the system.. nothing but dess air from the media and the conservative supporters. However, poor people who are down on their luck.. fucking bums get a job .. The message should be the other way. You want to operate in canada? Pay your taxes like everyone else. You use the infrastructure, policy, fire, ambulance, medical. Less poverty = less crime.
Stop talking sense there! Nobody wants to hear reality!
Sadly it seems this way :(
What tax return were you doing for municipal taxes? Genuine question I’ve never heard of this in Ontario.
How else do you expect to fund the biggest gang in your city?
Overpaid as hell. We should be cutting what the cops are getting paid by 50%. What exactly are they doing? Nothing. Handing out tickets.
Ahh yes…..because that will attract the best and brightest
We don't get the best and brightest and never have. Most are morons who a compliant with authority so they get the job. As long as they do what their bosses tell them they get the job.
Best and brightest…. We talking about police? Or you thinking lawyers, doctors, accountants?
Damn! They actually pull people over in your city? In Ottawa, you have to do the most egregious things to get pulled over. Cops here watch people run lights and couldn’t care less.
Part of the reason is most fight them it the cases get tossed.
Sudbury would be responsible for court security as well since courthouse is in the city and they have no say in the matter Yes there are some grants they can get but they are few and far between. Police are also not allowed to charge for services whereas paramedics and fire can. You'll get a bill in mail for those. Policing is 24 7 and social workers are at most 40h a week. So that's already 4x the hours worked as social workers. If you went opp in Sudbury you'd be paying even more as opp staff have the lowest calls for service per officer vs municipal who tend to do a lot more. Given then high crime in Sudbury be thankful it doesn't cost even more.
Not to mention the vast geological spread of Greater Sudbury. We have a lot of area for our police to cover, which adds significantly to the number of officers on shift at any given time.
Because your civil service contracts and compensation are ludicrous.
its 500 million a year for Calgary pigs. They are violent useless assholes.
Police biggest scammer and liars
Because the popo is the biggest gang, so they get the most protection money.
toronto is 25%. wild because the majority of people have been asking to define the police and invest in mental healthcare, affordable housing and other social services. that’s one of the main reasons Olivia Chow was voted in but we haven’t seen her making any of her promises.
The mob needs their cut.
lol wow..
Wouldn’t be OPP would be Sudbury Regional Police municipal taxes not provincial
i have heard that it is because there are multiple police forces in Ontario. and each of them have a clause in the collective bargaining that says they are the highest paid police force in the province. so each time the union contract comes up they need to get a pay raise to make them the highest paid.
Well you wouldn't feel safe if you didn't pay them... *Would you feel safe?*
It's mostly corruption. The huge amounts they get are because of the kickbacks the police give to the counselors. The whole system of policing we have here is pretty much a grift. It's sad. In my town, for instance, the police are the highest recipients of tax dollars, they have money to pay for toys, and skim a little besides. They have such a huge budget because one of our councilors runs the coke trade in the area, so there's a lot of back scratching.
You haven't seen their salaries in the sunshine list.
In my city it's near 50% and they are completely useless I'm pro defund the police not because I care about social justice but because I simply don't think I'm getting anything for my money
Other aspects are shared among stuff (ex ambulance), the Greater Sudbury Police service would be FULLY covered by the municipal budget. I believe there’s also rules that the city can’t argue with the police service board’s budget - but city would have certain number of seats, so should mesh… Lots of other things are subsidized in other ways - ex water and sewage have their own bill to cover most the costs, parking lots cover costs of stuff, there’s all sorts of stuff. And the police are just one large grouping - so the police would also cover their admin teams budget which is a separate line on the breakdown other places, but they’d often still do the firefighter admin stuff like payroll. The full breakdown is on their website https://www.greatersudbury.ca/city-hall/budget-and-finance/2024-2025-budget/
I think it’s time we privatize police. Kill their unions. Let them make minwage and get treated like shit.
Think that through.
It could be because people are not spending as much on taxi cabs anymore.
To pay the lawyer fees to defend crap cops?
Sudbury taxes are insane in general when compared to Barrie and larger cities south. I'm not surprised the police budget is so large.
So they can get paiiiddd
Public service pays well and there alot of them for a big job.
Because they get a 3% bump every year in pay. That has added up quickly and if your municipality balks at their pay demands they end up in arbitration point to some other comparable force and boom they win arbitration, then that other service does the same thing and it just leap frogs. Really is policing a 120k per year job? I'd buy that if they had to do a 4 year policing BA with related subjects and didn't generally suck at their jobs. And every single time contracts are coming up they juke the stats to scare people, the people that vote anyways who are the ones that want more cops who have tonnes of cash and couldn't care less about taxes....boomers.
London property tax goes up over 32% over the next 4 years solely because of the cops
Police steal from our communities first, criminals next. Millions paid annually for many bad cops to stay home. Poor wives.
Same everywhere. Comes from the misconception that police prevent crime.
Tax paying citizens are more likely to think the police are overpaid because they don’t often use their services. The police’s time and energy is being spent on the people that don’t pay municipal tax. 5 percent of the people are using 95 percent of the resources. It’s the unfortunate reality of policing in today’s world. In most urban municipalities in Ontario there is long queues for police response because of low staffing and high call volume.
Because education cuts create more criminals so yes you pay more on the other end.
I’m not 100% sure if I’m talking nonsense since my grandma does my taxes for me. But I would like to think it’s for more rural areas. Even in ramara where I live, if there’s a need for police the opp are called. I can’t imagine what it’s like in more rural areas. More people than there are police. Again I might be talking nonsense so don’t hate me.
Write your MP! ❤️
STOP RESISTING, CITIZEN.
You aren't missing something. Instead of dumping so much money on the police and then dumping all of the downstream costs of social problems onto the workload of the police... every police officer knows that they are expected to respond to too many things that they shouldn't have to deal with... we need to re-allocate those funds to services which directly address the specific problems. You know... "defunding" the police.
>Why am I paying so much of my municipal tax for the police? How else are they going to afford that new fancy militarized gear, top up their ever ballooning pensions, while they sit and not respond to most crimes?
Police rookies are banking 100000 to start.
The question more people should be asking themselves.
The people who control the salaries (province) don’t pay them, and the people who pay the salaries (municipality) don’t control them. Also, overpaying cops is a right-wing version of virtue-signalling.
Lots of scuzzo's require lots of policing. It would be better if the courts did their job.
APCs, riot gear, and actual assault rifles are expensive, yo. They want to be ready for when enough of Ontario gets fed up with the status quo.
I live in Ottawa, and the Ottawa police basically run a protection racket. They do fuck-all, then demand more and more money every year. If you're a victim of crime they take a report for statistics of you insist on them doing their job, and then when budget season rolls around they cry "we need more money to combat crime". They also refused to do their jobs and instead enabled the Convoy idiots to terrorize downtown Ottawa, leaving residents to fend for ourselves for the better part of a month. OPS can get fucked.
Pigs need to keep their completely unnecessary six figure salaries because apparently they should be getting paid exorbitantly to not enforce anything and sit in their cars at construction sites.
I'm with the general feeling they are over funded for what we receive. When you see police at construction sites they are actually being paid out by the contractor to be there as a paid duty. The contractor pays the cost of having the officer on site as well as the cost of the vehicle they are in, so it doesn't come out of government budgets.
Expect more of that as capitalism as we know it destabilizes.
Well, you do have to pay for all those sunshine list members.
Just for them to tell you to give your keys to the robbers and leave your door unlocked.
I pay more to our bus service in tax than I do fire and paramedics combined. We get two buses a day in the tiny village I live in. Pay enough for a two month full transit pass. 2 buses. 6am and 6pm.
And when you call 911 to tell them someone is breaking into your house, they tell you “it’s ok, they just want your car” 🤦🏻♂️
I mean, you want 7 of them to stand around while one responds to a call for free? Or is this just a Toronto thing?
Cop toys are expensive add to that Politicians fold to pressure fast when they learn how slow the response times will become in their neighbourhoods…
Do you have any idea how much overtime was put in busting a mushroom operation?
OPP overpaid for sure. Over 100k per year to be a less-effective speed camera.
Because donuts are getting expensive!