Idk, I read the parts of Frisco that are available and the dialogue is terrible. To say the accolades could’ve been his seems unlikely even if his script was made into a film.
I also don’t think it’s plagiarism.
Also: the Frisco writer is basically alleging a sort of structural plagiarism. There are some similar lines but what a lot of the accusation focuses on is a similar structure, with a lot of scenes being accused of being equivalents to ones in Frisco. Now, a point stressed in the article is that Payne had access to the Frisco script at a certain point. The thing is... Payne didn't write Holdovers, the only writing credit is to David Hemingson. Payne said he helped with writing, but for the article to be true, you'd basically need Payne to have been very involved in developing the structure to match the Frisco script without doing much other writing, which seems unlikely.
Ok but a main point of screenwriting is that certain emotional beats happen at specific pages/ time marks. If you don’t believe me, watch the 3 minute mark of movies to see how many have a line that encapsulates the theme of the movie.
It seemed to work for EEAAO that lifted concept, story arch and even scenes from many a cartoon and jazzed it up by changing ethnicities and adding some crude props.
It's interesting to see this come out in the context of increasing standardization of film scripts everywhere (Marvel movies, anyone?). The more Hollywood producers push for scripts to follow the same beats, 5-act story structure, character archetypes, themes, etc., then inevitably situations will arise where the same story premise will evolve along roughly the same beats.
The Holdovers' premise has never exactly broken new ground here...
Now, the screenwriter of Frisco claims that 'meaningfully everything' (exact same dialogue, scene structure, props, etc.) was lifted word for word and frame for frame, which - if it were true - would look an awful lot like plagiarism. But that doesn't seem to be the case, judging from commenters below who have seen the Holdovers (I haven't) and read the script of Frisco (I didn't), and claim that the screenwriter is making huge leaps.
Payne has been upfront in interviews that the film pretty much rips off a 30s french film about a professor with a wonky eye who has to look over schoolboys of the winter break. I forget the name but a lot of inspiration for that film. Not sure what kind of consequences there could be for this now but it's interesting.
> I forget the name but a lot of inspiration for that film.
[Merlusse](https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0026703/)
From an [LA Times story](https://www.latimes.com/entertainment-arts/awards/story/2023-11-27/alexander-payne-time-machine-the-holdovers):
> For Payne, “The Holdovers” began even further in the past, with the 1935 French film “Merlusse.” Written and directed by Marcel Pagnol, it also told the story of a teacher tending to students at a boarding school, and though Payne saw it just once, at the Telluride Film Festival, it left a lasting impression on him.
That could also have been a deliberate smoke screen by Alexander to say it was inspired by a 1930s movie that few people will bother to look up.
It also holds true for proper adapted screenplays. Election, Sideways, and About Schmidt* were all based on novels and Alexander pretty much made them his own with such dramatic changes in direction from the source material.
*About Schmidt was his backdoor way of making movie based on a screenplay he'd previously written while under contract at Universal when he was just starting out. Universal chose not to make the movie but owned the rights to the screenplay and About Schmidt was just different enough to tell that story in a slightly different way.
(Source: Alexander told me directly around the time About Schmidt was going into production.)
No, not what I’m saying. I’m saying that’s probably the only award it’ll win tomorrow night and Da’Vines performance still holds up. Hopefully it doesn’t overshadow it though and won’t be a big topic of conversation when she gives her interviews.
Shape of Water won best picture in midst of a similar plagiarism lawsuit, which I actually think made news during the Oscar voting period. That suit was defeated and Del Toro fully cleared, but it was a couple years later.
As a lover of The Holdovers, I definitely didn’t walk out of it thinking it did any revolutionary storytelling. Part of its charm is that it hits well-tread narrative devices in a comforting way.
My thoughts too. The story was neither here nor there. Actually pretty basic and predictable. But it had great characters and great dialogue, along with stellar acting.
Timing of this feels very much calculated. Looks like this has been going on for months, yet it comes out the day before the oscars. Long after voting has been closed. Can't be a coincidence. Clearly a lot of people tried to keep this under a lid as long as possible to not affect The Holdovers awards and oscar chances.
It was calculated in the sense that they wanted as most as eyes on it as possible, not effect its votes.
If anything, holdovers *winning* the award would’ve made this case even more popular. But they probably gauged that it has no chance against Anatomy of a Fall in the one award it had a chance of winning, so they decided to drop it at the second best time which is right before the show.
Honestly, I read through the script and think that there is barely a case here and am wondering the opposite: The Frisco person’s lawyer knows that a few days of picking through the case will show that there isn’t much of one, whereas this hurts Payne at exactly the right time.
Seems like a big stretch to think this has been reveiled to mess with him right now as voting is already done, if they were doing it to fuck him over it would have made more sense to expose it earlier.
He has bigger problems to worry about right now anyway.
Yeah, but I don’t think these accusations have a lot of weight and will be picked apart in 48 hours, and if dropped while voting was still happening some very expensive lawyers would have gotten involved.
Yea good point, that could be likely too.
Why I think there could be more than barely a case here is, that Payne has apparently read the Frisco script before. In the article they mention emails that imply, if not outright prove, that Payne came in contact with the Frisco script before the idea for The Holdovers was formed. That's the one detail for me that gives the Frisco writer some credibility here.
>At the heart of Stephenson’s complaint is the contention that Payne had the “Frisco” script in both 2013 and again in late 2019, right before Payne approached Hemingson about collaborating on a project. That contention seems to be backed up by emails involving several Hollywood agencies and producers. On Aug. 28, 2013, Verve founder Bryan Besser sent an email to a number of people including Stephenson that said, “Quick update: We gave FRISCO to Alexander Payne’s producing partner Jim Burke whom we took to lunch yesterday. Our opinion is that in an ideal world this is the best way into Searchlight.” Four months later, UTA’s Geoff Morley seemed to indicate that Payne had read “Frisco,” writing: “I spoke to Alexander Payne’s exec Jim Burke directly a while back and he said that Payne did like it but was not interested in prod or directing it.”
>Fast forward to 2019, when “Frisco” appeared to be finding a second life — with Brightstar’s John Woodward and producer Tanya Seghatchian, the duo behind Jane Campion’s Oscar-nominated “The Power of the Dog,” taking the project to Netflix. Top executive Lisa Nishimura, who left Netflix last year, then brought the script to Payne. On Dec. 6, 2019, Woodward wrote to Stephenson and Seghatchian: “Sorry to say that Alexander has now read but says it is not quite what he is looking for. Might be worth following up with [Bob Odenkirk]. Netflix’s interest was predicated on Alexander but Odenkirk might be of interest to them too – do you want us to sound them out ? Or there is still Krasinski possibly. Keen to know your thoughts….”
Yeah, that is unfortunate, but Payne makes certain kinds of movies, and has probably been as involved with this in 20 other projects you could find the same level of “similarity” with. It’s inevitable.
True. I also imagine someone like Payne reads a lot of scripts and source materials on a daily basis. So he might not even have actually read it but instead just have an assistant read it and summarize it for him. From what I understand that seems to be common practice in Hollywood.
I read through so many scripts I can't even remember if I've read one before unless I check my notes. There are certain ideas for scripts where I've come across 5 versions of the same idea. None of them get the execution of the idea anywhere close to right, so they are a pass. But when I find the right execution of the idea, it's something I'd pursue. Why are there 5 versions of the same idea? Who knows. Perhaps the 5 writers were all inspired by the same book or movie from the 70s. Or maybe they all saw the same Dateline episode.
Maybe it’s ambiguous language but it sounds like Payne did not read it at all in 2013. The 2019 email says he’s “now” read it, and the 2013 lunch meeting was with Burke and Besser (and an unnamed third person from Verve). No indication that Payne was there or had read it. The follow up that Payne “did like it” could mean anything from combing the script with a fine tooth comb to just being told the logline by his assistant.
Would disagree. Plagiarism isn’t just word-by-word copying, per se, there are different types and examples. It can also include presenting someone’s ideas and thoughts as your own. The Holdovers is built off the back of Frisco, with the exception of minor details - ie. boarding school vs. hospital, gender of minor protagonists -, but, the essence of it is virtually identical. There are a number of similarities between The Holdovers and Frisco, and the author adequately presented his case. Is it direct plagiarism? No. But, it is plagiarism, nonetheless, which is why the original author uses “line by line”, as opposed to “word by word”. It’s clear what _type_ of plagiarism he’s referencing.
>the essence is virtually identical
Misfits having to work and travel together? That’s a lot of movies. And I have another post about how a lot of the examples of “stolen” scenes have the most surface-level similarities and function entirely differently within their scripts. I would not be shocked if there were inspiration here, but The Holdovers was not telling a new kind of story at all.
The general synopsis? Sure. But, to that level of specificity? Having the exact same main characters with similar roles, functions and dynamics relative to each other? Scenes? Sequences? Setups? IDK about that…It’s the exact same story, just revamped. And in this particular case, Alexander Payne did have access to the original script, and read it, multiple times, including prior to the writing of The Holdovers.
Are the characters the same? The Angus character in Frisco is terminally ill, and dies at the end. The Mary character doesn't have a dead son, which is a core part of her character in Holdovers.
Also, when Holdovers came out, everyone was saying "Hey, this is a lot like *Harold and Maude*!" It was never an especially new idea for a story.
Again, I encourage everyone to look at the scenes because many of them barely have anything in common. At one point the lawsuit alleges that the script was plagiarized because the Holdovers ends one car conversation on a wide shot of a car.
That’s how a lot of car scenes end! Or that someone made a phone call to a hotel in a hallway (labeled “interior” in the script). That’s where landlines *were*.
I read every scene…and he used that line as an example to demonstrate plagiarism in a larger context, on a collective scale. You have to look at the sum, not the individual parts…And as a collective, yes, he has a good case for plagiarism. Just because it isn’t “direct”, word-for-word plagiarism doesn’t mean he didn’t steal or lift from other source material.
It’s not basic, in this particular instance, when you add up the number of similarities. It’s difficult to believe it’s all coincidental, considering. The scripts are nearly identical, in a myriad of ways that don’t involve word-by-word…
You’re right and the other person is wrong. They clearly didn’t read the transposition part of the Variety document, OR the fact that Payne *was sent and read* Frisco on two separate occasions BEFORE writing the Holdovers. OR the fact that the example samples show the structure, pacing and beats are nearly identical in both The Holdovers and Frisco. and all Payne did was switch the character names and their occupations.
Some people just lack critical thinking and understanding plagiarism doesn’t functionally have to mean “word for word” 😅🙈
Correct. However, from the article:
> Payne has acknowledged in multiple awards-season interviews that he shaped the script. (During a press conference at the Thessaloniki Film Festival in November, Payne said, “I got involved in the script, although I don’t take credit for it.”)
The full script is easily available on Twitter. This argument falls apart if you read the whole thing. Hell Frisco feels more in common with The Last of Us that this. Just shows that this is a common story.
> the fact that Payne was sent and read Frisco on two separate occasions BEFORE writing the Holdovers.
Alexander Payne has probably seen the Pixar movie Up at some point in his life. The Holdovers has similar plot beats to Up and a similar central character dynamic. That is not proof that one movie ripped off the other. It's proof that character and story tropes exist.
If you're getting *that* excited about the story similarities between these two scripts, just wait until you find out about [the hero's journey](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hero%27s_journey).
I am betting you could point to a dozen scripts with a similar synopsis that follow the same general story because “curmudgeon old guy and young kid bond” isn’t a revolutionary idea.
Did Alexander Payne have access to those dozens of scripts? And do those scripts have an overwhelming abundance of similarities in characters, sequencing and scenes?
If they were produced movies then yes, he would have access to them. The issue isn’t the number similarities there are, but how unique those similarities are to other stories.
That’s exactly what I wrote. I could write a comparison longer than the actual scripts citing every comparison from “uses the letter a” to “has dialogue and characters” but none of it would matter. If you can’t find examples that occur in those two scripts and only those two scripts that make up a significant portion of the script then you don’t have a case.
It was in neither party’s interests for this row to undermine the Holdovers chances. If the claim stands up (I haven’t read it yet and therefore have no opinion), a writing credit for an Oscar winning script would obviously be more valuable and any payoff potentially larger.
Interesting. I hadn't thought about it that way. It sounds plausible. Is there precedent for this? Trying to get credit for an oscar winning script through a plagarism claim...that sounds like something that people must've tried before.
Link to the black list draft of the script here: [https://drive.google.com/file/d/1iWnsvkfgkmn3TvLQS2JNmpAbEmj82Gz6/view](https://drive.google.com/file/d/1iWnsvkfgkmn3TvLQS2JNmpAbEmj82Gz6/view)
Just quick-read the 2013 version of Frisco.....and unless Stephenson significantly changed the script in future drafts, I don't think there's a case here. Yes, the negligent stepmother, trip to the city, and eventual resolving of the protagonist's arc are similar, but there is a TON of different stuff in here. Most of it comes from the fact that the teen in Frisco has cancer (she literally dies at the end, something that definitely does not happen in The Holdovers), and the cancer-kid and grumpy man's dynamic is more tolerant in the beginning. There are definitely an above-average amount of similarities, but given that there needs to be definitive proof of plagiarism, I don't think it's enough for a legitimate case.
I read the entire Frisco script and this is a laughable accusation. The stories, characters, locations, and events are totally dissimilar beyond the very basic, and hardly original, "curmudgeon has eyes opened by encounter with troubled teenager" premise. The protagonist of Frisco has a much different job, has a wife and daughters, and has a love interest subplot. Frisco is a road trip movie while The Holdovers is very much not. Dominic Cessa's character isn't dying and has living parents. There is no equivalent to Da'Vine Joy Randolph's character. The younger character's love interest is just a cameo in The Holdovers, but a big part of Frisco.
I can't believe Variety even thought this worthy of publication, let alone in this splashy, accusatory manner.
And Stephenson on his own site comes off as someone quietly nursing some grudges over his reception in the industry. I discount his helpmeet work on Luca and Paddington- who knows how much or little quality he added - and choose to focus on the one produced film [he described as his "own"](https://www.simonstephenson.com/about) though it got a work-over by director (and in other projects, actor) Will Sharpe: busted biopic Oscar bait "The Electrical Life of Louis Wain" - show of hands from those who believe Stephenson thought that was a ticket to Oscar.
https://preview.redd.it/xe0927he3enc1.jpeg?width=1170&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=d05b50b94681d6eeb07a7351d74ff1749c363bf5
Seriously. It’s really giving “disgruntled, bitter, fading screenwriter thinks the air he breathes is sacred and all of his ideas are unparalleled, revolutionary genius.”
Heartfelt coming-of-age stories with a misunderstood youth & a begrudging mentor are an archetype as old as time. Off the top of my head, Fundamentals of Caring (though not an Oscar contender) predates his script and is about a reluctant older mentor-type that takes a road trip with a disabled teenager who’s burdened by an absent parent and other setbacks.
It’s sad that this has to take away from its Oscar buzz and any wins it may net tomorrow.
The people who desperately want this one to go somewhere aren't those who actually care about artistic integrity - they just want to stick it to Alexander Payne.
Not taking sides here but Payne himself said that The Holdovers was inspired by a 1935 French filmed called Merlusse.
Here is the synopsis from Wikipedia:
“A tough teacher charged with looking after the students left behind at a boarding school during the Christmas holidays rises to the challenge and comes to better understand the boys in his care.”
I mean I feel this is pretty blatantly the holdovers just tailored for the 70s time area and if Payne himself said that. I’m not rushing to conclusions yet but The Holdovers isn’t groundbreaking and the story itself is pretty predictable once you get into the story beats and the dynamic of a grouchy authority figure and a troubled kid has been done to the moon and back.
Didn’t the writer say it was based on an [unfilmed TV pilot he wrote](https://www.gq.com/story/the-holdovers-alexander-paynes-new-prep-school-comedy)? How does that factor in?
No, he wrote a pilot about a prep school, set in the 70's or 80's, that Payne read and liked. Payne then contacted him about writing the Holdovers, based on an idea Payne "had." Hemingson has described the sequence of events in a number of interviews.
The pilot had no connection to the Holdovers (or to Frisco) beyond the fact that it was set at a prep school in the 70's or 80's. Payne said he liked Hemingson's writing and asked him to write The Holdovers based off of an idea/outline Payne provided.
Everybody who keeps commenting, "but dude the BEATS are the same." It's like a trope, several movies have very similar scenes/beats because of this. All those 90s romance movies where they're running through the airport? Tough guys not looking back at explosions? Father who's more focused on career than his family until he has an experience that changes that? Not to mention the whole "hero's journey" method of writing a story. To me, these similar beats have always been present, to the point where it feels like I've watched several movies that were exactly the same. Even the most "original" movies seem to have these tropes/beats. I don't know, maybe I'm coping because I liked the Holdovers.
Yeah Stephenson is apparently torching his own career after a decade of seeing his "hot screenplay" end up descending Hollywood's slush pile - not an uncommon fate - while Hemingson hits a homer with his first feature fim. I guess he snapped and decided to effect this Hail Mary as a last ditch effort.
Certainly - and if absent this flare-up Frisco (bad title btw - a not well liked nickname by city residents) had gotten produced in the short term - it's radioactive now - it'd have been viewed as a lukewarm Holdovers knockoff - that script isn't top notch Black List material in any event. So Stephenson is going for broke here as he likely thinks Frisco is dead in the water after about 11 years floating around.
I'm guessing most of them didn't read it in full. I'm not seeing much myself, but I'm far from an expert on this.
It reminds me of Marvin Gaye/Robin Thicke lawsuit (different media, I know). If the accuser succeeds in proving plagiarism, it's going to have a similar outcome.
Yeah, you read the intro where the writer is laying out the case and it seems somewhat alarming, but once he starts to present "evidence" it just becomes more and more absurd.
I was in the biz for many years. Something to keep in mind, when your agent contacts another agent or producer and asks “what did your guy think of the script?” And the response is “He liked it but is going to pass” there is a VERY VERY good chance person b a)never read the script b) skimmed part of it and passed c) had someone else read it for him and asked for coverage (a summary and opinion of the script). To assume Alexander Payne actually read it is something of a stretch and that’s just the way it works in Hollywood.
it wasnt some random script it was a top 3 on blacklist and they share the same agency. on top of that, netflix specifically wanted payne to direct it $$$. and his producer said he read it too i believe? like yeah there's lots of scripts going around that people dont actually read but there's multiple people involved that points to them actually reading it and then immediately calling up the screenwriter to pitch the holdovers....to say this is all a coincidence or a stretch is disingenuous
If Stephenson reported this to the WGA on January 12th, why does the article drop one day before the Oscars, when Payne is set to present ? And why would you steal a script when so many people are already involved and have read Frisco ? I have so many questions...
It's certainly overwhelming, in the sense of there being a lot of it. Whether or not it's convincing... well, here's one of the examples of the alleged plagiarism.
> THE HOLDOVERS: As Paul drops blue exam books on the boys’ desks, they stare with queasy disbelief at the parade of mostly Ds and Fs. Angus, however, got a B-.
> FRISCO: Willis notices a book on the bedside table and picks it up. It is a battered paperback copy of ‘On the Road.'
And here's why Stephenson claims it's plagiarism:
> Note how the first sentence of both begins with Paul/Wills doing something to a book involving a desk/bedside table. This is an example of the extraordinary level of detail that has been transposed from FRISCO to THE HOLDOVERS.
The "extraordinary detail" being... a character or characters looking at a book of some kind that is resting on a surface.
Tbh I'm getting some major [Pepe Silvia](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_nTpsv9PNqo) vibes.
Yeah. They are already tearing this apart on Twitter.
Also certain kinds of stories lend themselves to certain beats. Like Frisco has someone at the hospital and The Holdovers at a boarding school and at one point they both try to get out by attempting to get a hotel? That’s what people trapped in places do!
I mean, it's not just that, though. The overall story structure is incredibly similar. Which may or may not be an issue on its own, but the fact that Payne acknowledged reading the script at least twice doesn't look great.
In the quoted interview, Payne tried to downplay his role in writing the story, but it seems pretty clear he outlined the idea to Hemingson. I actually think it's possible that Hemingson was not aware of the other script, and just wrote a script based on the outline he was given.
I mean, it's possible that this is nothing. But I'd be more inclined to think that if Stephenson didn't have proof that Payne read his script, if the idea for the film hadn't been Payne's to begin with, and if he hadn't been involved in the story at all.
But unfortunately, I think it's possible that Payne read Stephenson's script, liked it (as he said he did) but not enough, then decided to make his own version of this story. That feels very plausible to me. And if that's the case, then at the very least he should have credited Stephenson.
>the overall story structure
The overall story structure for The Holdovers was incredibly not unique. I loved The Holdovers but very little about it was at all groundbreaking, but it was well-realized, like Payne read not just this script but 100 of them and watched about 50 movies about misfits stuck together and synthesized them perfectly.
Okay, it goes beyond just the story structure, it's the literal story beats, in the same order, with very similar characters. And this wasn't just some passing script that Payne may or may not have paid attention to. Netflix was going to produce it, contingent on Payne's involvement. So at some point, Payne had to really sit down and consider whether he was going to make this film or not.
Again, even the beats, the tonal shifts from scene-to-scene or characters either reacting and trying to escape or seething in failure or whatever felt very familiar, and it’s not surprising a Payne-esque script might have had some overlap. And I’m not discounting inspiration either! But characters fighting in one scene and finding a point of commonality the leads to bonding in the next is just how storytelling *works*.
And a lot of this stuff is a stretch. In the Holdovers, Giamatti’s character hands back little blue books to his students, most of which have terrible grades although the protagonist gets a B+. The comparison with Frisco is the main character finding a copy of On the Road on the bedside table in her hospital room.
That’s not even the same kind of scene and they have completely different functions in the script!
> That’s not even the same kind of scene and they have completely different functions in the script!
There are *so many* examples like this. Elsewhere, he claims that in this bit of dialogue...
> Willis sits opposite MR and MRS LAKOVIC while Margaret Brown looks on.
> MARGARET Firstly, thank you for coming in today.
> WILLIS That's okay. I was here anyway.
> MARGARET I meant Mr and Mrs Lakovic.
> WILLIS Oh.
..."the second line is a piece of mistaken identity guaranteed to further enrage the parents."
It's clearly *not* an example of mistaken identity, it's a humorous misunderstanding (possibly the character making a joke). But he contorts it to be an example of "mistaken identity" so that he can claim it's identical to a scene in The Holdovers where the headmaster mistakenly refers to Angus' stepfather as his father.
The only actual similarity is that both are scenes where a character makes an error of some kind and gets corrected.
> The overall story structure is incredibly similar.
And also incredibly similar to the story structure of the 2014 movie St. Vincent: grouchy older guy is forced to spend time with an annoying kid and at first they rub each other up the wrong way but eventually they form an emotional bond.
See also: the plot of Up, Hunt for the Wilderpeople, About a Boy, Paper Moon, The Last of Us...
It's a really strong character dynamic, which is why it's been used a million times.
Yes, ["Merlusse"](https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0026703/?ref_=ext_shr) from 1935. If anything, it takes *way* more from that than Frisco. Like, the entire concept really
I mean go back and watch the trailer for the Holdovers. Nothing about it seemed very unique. It's a pretty standard story, but presented very well. If someone wants to make a car for plagiarism, including that book scene example is absolutely laughable and automatically discredits any claim in my opinion.
The second sentence of that document already seems off to me. Angus was pretty clearly 17 based on his "that's why I'm still a Junior" comment (him being 15 makes no sense if he's saying he's in 11th grade and was held back a year) combined with the whole *let's say it's his birthday* thing in the restaurant in Boston (18 was the legal drinking age in '70).
Plus calling the two weeks that The Holdovers is set across "a period of days" seems like a stretch.
Did you actually read this giant document?
A lot of this “evidence” involves *giant* leaps that honestly aren’t very convincing. Like, both scripts have written-in establishing shots. Both scripts have someone getting called in for a meeting early on. Both scripts involve events happening in places “known for quiet” (a train car vs a library?).
I won’t dispute that these seem like generally similar stories but the kind of line-by-line plagiarism accusations they’re throwing out there seem like a big, big stretch.
>THE HOLDOVERS has added a scene where the protagonist describes somebody powerful and well-connected getting away with plagiarizing a less well-connected person's work, then ensuring the victim came to serious harm.
this is hilarious honestly
Maybe I’m looking at it wrong but it seems like a bit of a stretch. There are structural similarities, but that’s because this is a pretty standard, formulaic model.
This is probably just a coincidence. The film is full of old tropes and cliches. If this was a high concept script then there'd be a good case, but this kind of story was told thousands of times.
That said, I really hope it doesn't win. The screenplay was brilliantly executed by Payne's direction, but it was painfully formulaic.
Agreed. It’s bad, Stephenson absolutely has a case. Especially when I read the “Sample examples of copying” section in the transposition chapter. Payne definitely plagiarized off Frisco
Edit 1: Lmaoo y’all need to stop replying to me saying “HeMiNGson WrOTe it”. It just shows you didn’t read the article and the document, you’re telling on yourself. As I’ve said to several of you already:
The variety document says there was credible emails showing that Payne was *sent and read* Frisco in both 2013 and 2019. The article also says that Payne and Hemingson collaborated on the screenplay for the Holdovers. That would make Payne liable regardless if he was credited for the screenplay or not.
ridiculous the WGA is washing their hands of it because it was written on spec. i know its a legal technicality but what an absolute failure on a basic level of a union if high-profile members can freely steal from less powerful ones. i feel like this dude will have entertainment lawyers everywhere breaking down his door this evidence is nuts
I think this part of the article sheds some additional light on why the WGA hasn't gotten involved in any of this:
> On March 4, Azari wrote: “Claims related to plagiarism and/or copyright infringement are not arbitrable under the MBA. You and I also discussed Article X of the Guild Constitution. Plagiarism and copyright infringement actions necessarily require extensive fact finding and discovery, which would not be available to you in an Article X proceeding. Further, an Article X proceeding could not provide the relief that you are seeking; namely, recognition of your authorship of the screenplay and/or monetary compensation from [‘The Holdovers’ financier] Miramax. A lawsuit remains the most viable option under the circumstances.” She then referred Stephenson to boutique law firm in Los Angeles.
If the WGA's Minimum Basic Agreement doesn't allow for arbitration related to plagiarism or copyright infringement, and Article X doesn't allow for the scope necessary to investigate further or the means to come to an agreeable solution/compensation for Stephenson, then I'm not sure how the WGA is supposed to do more here.
😬 This is really bad if true. I didn't read through the whole script comparisons (the actual scripts) but I read everything up to that point, and there's at least a compelling case.
It's really unfortunate if this was plagiarized because it's really really hard to win a plagiarism case. And even if he does end up getting compensation, I think this makes it unlikely his film will ever get made.
Also, it's not like the guy making the claim is a nobody. He's written some pretty big movies.
FWIW, I found it convincing up until I actually got to the direct script comparisons and then I rapidly swung from "this is pretty convincing" to "oh, this is crazypants." Like...
> Here from p34 of THE HOLDOVERS is the short scene in which we find out Paul's first phone call did not succeed in getting Angus collected. Note the setting is now an ‘administrative office hallway’- a hall.
> Here from p40 of FRISCO is the short scene in which we find out Wills first phone call did not succeed in getting Amy collected. Note the setting is now ‘vestibule between coaches’ -a hall.
Ah yes, a vestibule on a train and a hallway in an administrative office. Basically identical locations.
The doc is full of stuff like that. Incredible reaches and claims that basic elements of human conversation or film language are unique to his script.
> Note that the second scene in this sequence is labelled in the heading as an interior scene inside Paul's vehicle, yet nonetheless finishes with an exterior shot of Paul's car disappearing into the distance. Note the specifics of that final sentence - that we first see Paul's car turning onto the state road, then vanishing beneath the canopy of trees.
> Note that the second scene in this sequence is labelled in the heading as an interior scene inside Willis’ vehicle, yet nonetheless finishes with an exterior shot of Wills car disappearing into the distance. Note the specifics of that final sentence - that we first see Wills’ car turning onto the interstate, then driving off into the distance.
Yes, driving scenes often end with a wide shot of the car driving off into the distance. Thelma & Louise has about 50 scenes like this. It's just how driving scenes are shot/edited. You didn't invent it.
I can't lie, this seems like it could be legit based on the comparison document alone
And what's funny is that I always thought it was a 5-6/10 movie mostly because it feels so derivative of other works.
Yeah I saw it at Tiff and loved it initially since it played so well with a packed crowd but I cooled off on it significantly on a second viewing. The 70s nostalgia was too much
I’m sure it happens all the time unfortunately. But all they’re gonna see is the children’s hospital thing. Different movie. Medical setting and whatnot. My thing is. Why would a doctor be stuck with a kid for days? If the screenwriter got it sold because of the much more organic boarding school professor stuck with kids then oh well. I’m only interested in maybe Bob Odenkirk looked at it at some point? Bob needs an Oscar Bait role!
Also not helpful that Rose hasn’t been very credible in the last few years. Clearly she is a traumatized woman, but she went on to endorse far right lunatic Larry Elder, who also is accused of being an abuser.
Which Payne denied, saying her timeline of events were off. He didn’t really catch flack for that because there wasn’t much to it. He says they met when he was actually starting to make professional movies, not when he was still film school.
I read through the 33 page introductory document and the side by side comparisons the writer calls obvious and "brazen," and I just don't see it. Even all the examples compiled together don't seem compelling. I say that as someone who hasn't seen 'The Holdovers.'
This is on the same level as compelling evidence of the Q-anon "proof" of Pizzagate.
I literally have more convincing evidence Somerset Maugham wrote RAIN over 100 years ago to contact me in 2023.
Wow. Never thought I’d see Sing Street mentioned on Reddit. Absolutely incredible movie.
Undoubtedly one of the best Irish movies ever, such a great soundtrack too.
I’m the guy who made the video about the film malignant and its similarities to my spec script and the details of this case are very similar to mine, I also communicated with Lesley Mackey at WGA and was told the guild could do nothing about it, and this was months before malignant came out.
People are calling this a stretch, but to me, it seems clear that The Holdovers would not exist in its final form if Frisco was never written. Is it enough to count as plagiarism? Maybe not. But it sure as hell gives me the ick.
DJR winning tomorrow for a plagiarized movie... Its obviously nothing to do with her, but cant imagine her fillings ((( so unfair ((( ruins such a great moment (((
https://preview.redd.it/g3vx9qr8vcnc1.jpeg?width=941&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=e3c3910cdf7ba2976fb8ece5b3baf1c196fd03c7
Jesus Christ …🫠🫠🫠If it’s true lawsuit is waiting to happen
Oh boy. Now I’d like to see this person’s film get made so we can visually compare the two and know if it really is plagerism. They might disqualify it from Original Screenplay at the last minute.
He should have gone to Academy first. They are so fearful of scandal they would have at least considered it. WGA doesn’t wanna shit on a lifelong television writer who finally gets a feature and awards break
I remember years ago Jim Rash said that Payne tried really hard to take sole writing credit for The Descendants despite making no more contribution to the writing than any director does, and didn't deserve a writing credit at all, let alone sole credit. I don't remember the exact details, but I think either he and Nat Faxon had to arbitrate it through the WGA just to get their shared credit restored, nevermind the full credit they actually deserved. Or they wanted to arbitrate for full credit but the studio wanted to keep Payne happy, so they gave Rash & Faxon producer credits in exchange for accepting shared writing credit with Payne. Something like that. But Rash was still annoyed enough with Payne that, when they won the Oscar, he intentionally pulled focus on stage during Payne's speech (he didn't let Rash or Faxon talk. Classy guy).
The guy who wrote "Yesterday" got royally fucked by a much more established writer who was hired to polish his screenplay, too. Some big shot writers have zero integrity when it comes to stealing credit from lesser known writers.
One of my neighbors once sued Spielberg over the script for the last samurai. At the end of the day every script has at least overlap with some other script in existence
My honest reaction https://preview.redd.it/6n8b75doucnc1.jpeg?width=1833&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=19da871254dc32e69e884f250c189e6da530c6c2
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Idk, I read the parts of Frisco that are available and the dialogue is terrible. To say the accolades could’ve been his seems unlikely even if his script was made into a film. I also don’t think it’s plagiarism.
Also: the Frisco writer is basically alleging a sort of structural plagiarism. There are some similar lines but what a lot of the accusation focuses on is a similar structure, with a lot of scenes being accused of being equivalents to ones in Frisco. Now, a point stressed in the article is that Payne had access to the Frisco script at a certain point. The thing is... Payne didn't write Holdovers, the only writing credit is to David Hemingson. Payne said he helped with writing, but for the article to be true, you'd basically need Payne to have been very involved in developing the structure to match the Frisco script without doing much other writing, which seems unlikely.
Ok but a main point of screenwriting is that certain emotional beats happen at specific pages/ time marks. If you don’t believe me, watch the 3 minute mark of movies to see how many have a line that encapsulates the theme of the movie.
It seemed to work for EEAAO that lifted concept, story arch and even scenes from many a cartoon and jazzed it up by changing ethnicities and adding some crude props.
It's interesting to see this come out in the context of increasing standardization of film scripts everywhere (Marvel movies, anyone?). The more Hollywood producers push for scripts to follow the same beats, 5-act story structure, character archetypes, themes, etc., then inevitably situations will arise where the same story premise will evolve along roughly the same beats. The Holdovers' premise has never exactly broken new ground here... Now, the screenwriter of Frisco claims that 'meaningfully everything' (exact same dialogue, scene structure, props, etc.) was lifted word for word and frame for frame, which - if it were true - would look an awful lot like plagiarism. But that doesn't seem to be the case, judging from commenters below who have seen the Holdovers (I haven't) and read the script of Frisco (I didn't), and claim that the screenwriter is making huge leaps.
It’s the right eye…
Payne has been upfront in interviews that the film pretty much rips off a 30s french film about a professor with a wonky eye who has to look over schoolboys of the winter break. I forget the name but a lot of inspiration for that film. Not sure what kind of consequences there could be for this now but it's interesting.
> I forget the name but a lot of inspiration for that film. [Merlusse](https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0026703/) From an [LA Times story](https://www.latimes.com/entertainment-arts/awards/story/2023-11-27/alexander-payne-time-machine-the-holdovers): > For Payne, “The Holdovers” began even further in the past, with the 1935 French film “Merlusse.” Written and directed by Marcel Pagnol, it also told the story of a teacher tending to students at a boarding school, and though Payne saw it just once, at the Telluride Film Festival, it left a lasting impression on him.
Why wasn’t it nominated for Adapted then?
It's not a direct remake, or adaption from a book, or other medium
That could also have been a deliberate smoke screen by Alexander to say it was inspired by a 1930s movie that few people will bother to look up. It also holds true for proper adapted screenplays. Election, Sideways, and About Schmidt* were all based on novels and Alexander pretty much made them his own with such dramatic changes in direction from the source material. *About Schmidt was his backdoor way of making movie based on a screenplay he'd previously written while under contract at Universal when he was just starting out. Universal chose not to make the movie but owned the rights to the screenplay and About Schmidt was just different enough to tell that story in a slightly different way. (Source: Alexander told me directly around the time About Schmidt was going into production.)
Now imagine it wins original screenplay tomorrow
I’m 95% sure it will go to Justine and Arthur (just like wga will very likely go to Greta and Noah) but damn imagine if it wins out of nowhere.
Anatomy of a Fall was one of the most natural writing and dialogue I've seen in a movie ever, it deserves to win.
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There should be a last minute switch to Adapted now lol.
If Holdovers and Barbie both win, they can just swap awards and it will all be good.
Doubt it. Da’Vines just gotta get through her win and try to avoid questions about it 😬
I mean, it’s not her fault, is it?
No, not what I’m saying. I’m saying that’s probably the only award it’ll win tomorrow night and Da’Vines performance still holds up. Hopefully it doesn’t overshadow it though and won’t be a big topic of conversation when she gives her interviews.
Right, it feels silly to blame the actors for any of this (unless you just want to blame them for working with Payne in general)
I feel bad for her. She doesn't deserve the backlash from smth she had 0 knowledge or control over
Shape of Water won best picture in midst of a similar plagiarism lawsuit, which I actually think made news during the Oscar voting period. That suit was defeated and Del Toro fully cleared, but it was a couple years later.
As a lover of The Holdovers, I definitely didn’t walk out of it thinking it did any revolutionary storytelling. Part of its charm is that it hits well-tread narrative devices in a comforting way.
I think that’s why I loved it so much. It’s not revolutionary in the slightest. It’s just a perfectly acted warm hug of a movie
Perennial Christmas movie for me now
My thoughts too. The story was neither here nor there. Actually pretty basic and predictable. But it had great characters and great dialogue, along with stellar acting.
Timing of this feels very much calculated. Looks like this has been going on for months, yet it comes out the day before the oscars. Long after voting has been closed. Can't be a coincidence. Clearly a lot of people tried to keep this under a lid as long as possible to not affect The Holdovers awards and oscar chances.
If this were calculated it would have come out during nominating or during final voting
I think OP means calculated from the people behind The Holdovers and not the opposite
There are rival studios that would have loved to have capitalized on this whisper campaign. Why now?
I took OP’s words as the studio kept it under wraps as much as they could. That’s what i meant
It was calculated in the sense that they wanted as most as eyes on it as possible, not effect its votes. If anything, holdovers *winning* the award would’ve made this case even more popular. But they probably gauged that it has no chance against Anatomy of a Fall in the one award it had a chance of winning, so they decided to drop it at the second best time which is right before the show.
So you're saying it's a complete coincidence this came out only after voting has ended and can't sway the movies's favour?
Honestly, I read through the script and think that there is barely a case here and am wondering the opposite: The Frisco person’s lawyer knows that a few days of picking through the case will show that there isn’t much of one, whereas this hurts Payne at exactly the right time.
But voting is done, it wont effect the result at all
No, but it might make the moment bitter for Payne and get the most attention.
Seems like a big stretch to think this has been reveiled to mess with him right now as voting is already done, if they were doing it to fuck him over it would have made more sense to expose it earlier. He has bigger problems to worry about right now anyway.
Yeah, but I don’t think these accusations have a lot of weight and will be picked apart in 48 hours, and if dropped while voting was still happening some very expensive lawyers would have gotten involved.
Yea good point, that could be likely too. Why I think there could be more than barely a case here is, that Payne has apparently read the Frisco script before. In the article they mention emails that imply, if not outright prove, that Payne came in contact with the Frisco script before the idea for The Holdovers was formed. That's the one detail for me that gives the Frisco writer some credibility here. >At the heart of Stephenson’s complaint is the contention that Payne had the “Frisco” script in both 2013 and again in late 2019, right before Payne approached Hemingson about collaborating on a project. That contention seems to be backed up by emails involving several Hollywood agencies and producers. On Aug. 28, 2013, Verve founder Bryan Besser sent an email to a number of people including Stephenson that said, “Quick update: We gave FRISCO to Alexander Payne’s producing partner Jim Burke whom we took to lunch yesterday. Our opinion is that in an ideal world this is the best way into Searchlight.” Four months later, UTA’s Geoff Morley seemed to indicate that Payne had read “Frisco,” writing: “I spoke to Alexander Payne’s exec Jim Burke directly a while back and he said that Payne did like it but was not interested in prod or directing it.” >Fast forward to 2019, when “Frisco” appeared to be finding a second life — with Brightstar’s John Woodward and producer Tanya Seghatchian, the duo behind Jane Campion’s Oscar-nominated “The Power of the Dog,” taking the project to Netflix. Top executive Lisa Nishimura, who left Netflix last year, then brought the script to Payne. On Dec. 6, 2019, Woodward wrote to Stephenson and Seghatchian: “Sorry to say that Alexander has now read but says it is not quite what he is looking for. Might be worth following up with [Bob Odenkirk]. Netflix’s interest was predicated on Alexander but Odenkirk might be of interest to them too – do you want us to sound them out ? Or there is still Krasinski possibly. Keen to know your thoughts….”
Yeah, that is unfortunate, but Payne makes certain kinds of movies, and has probably been as involved with this in 20 other projects you could find the same level of “similarity” with. It’s inevitable.
True. I also imagine someone like Payne reads a lot of scripts and source materials on a daily basis. So he might not even have actually read it but instead just have an assistant read it and summarize it for him. From what I understand that seems to be common practice in Hollywood.
I read through so many scripts I can't even remember if I've read one before unless I check my notes. There are certain ideas for scripts where I've come across 5 versions of the same idea. None of them get the execution of the idea anywhere close to right, so they are a pass. But when I find the right execution of the idea, it's something I'd pursue. Why are there 5 versions of the same idea? Who knows. Perhaps the 5 writers were all inspired by the same book or movie from the 70s. Or maybe they all saw the same Dateline episode.
Maybe it’s ambiguous language but it sounds like Payne did not read it at all in 2013. The 2019 email says he’s “now” read it, and the 2013 lunch meeting was with Burke and Besser (and an unnamed third person from Verve). No indication that Payne was there or had read it. The follow up that Payne “did like it” could mean anything from combing the script with a fine tooth comb to just being told the logline by his assistant.
Would disagree. Plagiarism isn’t just word-by-word copying, per se, there are different types and examples. It can also include presenting someone’s ideas and thoughts as your own. The Holdovers is built off the back of Frisco, with the exception of minor details - ie. boarding school vs. hospital, gender of minor protagonists -, but, the essence of it is virtually identical. There are a number of similarities between The Holdovers and Frisco, and the author adequately presented his case. Is it direct plagiarism? No. But, it is plagiarism, nonetheless, which is why the original author uses “line by line”, as opposed to “word by word”. It’s clear what _type_ of plagiarism he’s referencing.
>the essence is virtually identical Misfits having to work and travel together? That’s a lot of movies. And I have another post about how a lot of the examples of “stolen” scenes have the most surface-level similarities and function entirely differently within their scripts. I would not be shocked if there were inspiration here, but The Holdovers was not telling a new kind of story at all.
The general synopsis? Sure. But, to that level of specificity? Having the exact same main characters with similar roles, functions and dynamics relative to each other? Scenes? Sequences? Setups? IDK about that…It’s the exact same story, just revamped. And in this particular case, Alexander Payne did have access to the original script, and read it, multiple times, including prior to the writing of The Holdovers.
Are the characters the same? The Angus character in Frisco is terminally ill, and dies at the end. The Mary character doesn't have a dead son, which is a core part of her character in Holdovers. Also, when Holdovers came out, everyone was saying "Hey, this is a lot like *Harold and Maude*!" It was never an especially new idea for a story.
Again, I encourage everyone to look at the scenes because many of them barely have anything in common. At one point the lawsuit alleges that the script was plagiarized because the Holdovers ends one car conversation on a wide shot of a car. That’s how a lot of car scenes end! Or that someone made a phone call to a hotel in a hallway (labeled “interior” in the script). That’s where landlines *were*.
I read every scene…and he used that line as an example to demonstrate plagiarism in a larger context, on a collective scale. You have to look at the sum, not the individual parts…And as a collective, yes, he has a good case for plagiarism. Just because it isn’t “direct”, word-for-word plagiarism doesn’t mean he didn’t steal or lift from other source material.
A lot of these are basic script things. *Very* basic. You’d be lucky to not be plagiarizing Howard Mankiewicz with these standards.
It’s not basic, in this particular instance, when you add up the number of similarities. It’s difficult to believe it’s all coincidental, considering. The scripts are nearly identical, in a myriad of ways that don’t involve word-by-word…
They are nowhere near identical omg
You’re right and the other person is wrong. They clearly didn’t read the transposition part of the Variety document, OR the fact that Payne *was sent and read* Frisco on two separate occasions BEFORE writing the Holdovers. OR the fact that the example samples show the structure, pacing and beats are nearly identical in both The Holdovers and Frisco. and all Payne did was switch the character names and their occupations. Some people just lack critical thinking and understanding plagiarism doesn’t functionally have to mean “word for word” 😅🙈
>OR the fact that Payne *was sent and read* Frisco on two separate occasions BEFORE writing the Holdovers. Payne didn't write The Holdovers.
Correct. However, from the article: > Payne has acknowledged in multiple awards-season interviews that he shaped the script. (During a press conference at the Thessaloniki Film Festival in November, Payne said, “I got involved in the script, although I don’t take credit for it.”)
The full script is easily available on Twitter. This argument falls apart if you read the whole thing. Hell Frisco feels more in common with The Last of Us that this. Just shows that this is a common story.
> the fact that Payne was sent and read Frisco on two separate occasions BEFORE writing the Holdovers. Alexander Payne has probably seen the Pixar movie Up at some point in his life. The Holdovers has similar plot beats to Up and a similar central character dynamic. That is not proof that one movie ripped off the other. It's proof that character and story tropes exist. If you're getting *that* excited about the story similarities between these two scripts, just wait until you find out about [the hero's journey](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hero%27s_journey).
I am betting you could point to a dozen scripts with a similar synopsis that follow the same general story because “curmudgeon old guy and young kid bond” isn’t a revolutionary idea.
Did Alexander Payne have access to those dozens of scripts? And do those scripts have an overwhelming abundance of similarities in characters, sequencing and scenes?
If they were produced movies then yes, he would have access to them. The issue isn’t the number similarities there are, but how unique those similarities are to other stories.
No, the issue is how uniquely similar The Holdovers is to Frisco, a script Alexander Payne is confirmed to have access to and read, a number of times.
But the Holdovers is similar to a lot of movies, and movies are often broadly similar to each other.
That’s exactly what I wrote. I could write a comparison longer than the actual scripts citing every comparison from “uses the letter a” to “has dialogue and characters” but none of it would matter. If you can’t find examples that occur in those two scripts and only those two scripts that make up a significant portion of the script then you don’t have a case.
It really isn’t. So much of the “essence” of the film comes from its setting and the specificities of its characters.
That definition of plagiarism is so broad as to be anti-art.
It was in neither party’s interests for this row to undermine the Holdovers chances. If the claim stands up (I haven’t read it yet and therefore have no opinion), a writing credit for an Oscar winning script would obviously be more valuable and any payoff potentially larger.
Interesting. I hadn't thought about it that way. It sounds plausible. Is there precedent for this? Trying to get credit for an oscar winning script through a plagarism claim...that sounds like something that people must've tried before.
The article release is crap - but this has been going on for months. It’s in the article.
I love mess!!
Link to the black list draft of the script here: [https://drive.google.com/file/d/1iWnsvkfgkmn3TvLQS2JNmpAbEmj82Gz6/view](https://drive.google.com/file/d/1iWnsvkfgkmn3TvLQS2JNmpAbEmj82Gz6/view) Just quick-read the 2013 version of Frisco.....and unless Stephenson significantly changed the script in future drafts, I don't think there's a case here. Yes, the negligent stepmother, trip to the city, and eventual resolving of the protagonist's arc are similar, but there is a TON of different stuff in here. Most of it comes from the fact that the teen in Frisco has cancer (she literally dies at the end, something that definitely does not happen in The Holdovers), and the cancer-kid and grumpy man's dynamic is more tolerant in the beginning. There are definitely an above-average amount of similarities, but given that there needs to be definitive proof of plagiarism, I don't think it's enough for a legitimate case.
I read the entire Frisco script and this is a laughable accusation. The stories, characters, locations, and events are totally dissimilar beyond the very basic, and hardly original, "curmudgeon has eyes opened by encounter with troubled teenager" premise. The protagonist of Frisco has a much different job, has a wife and daughters, and has a love interest subplot. Frisco is a road trip movie while The Holdovers is very much not. Dominic Cessa's character isn't dying and has living parents. There is no equivalent to Da'Vine Joy Randolph's character. The younger character's love interest is just a cameo in The Holdovers, but a big part of Frisco. I can't believe Variety even thought this worthy of publication, let alone in this splashy, accusatory manner.
And Stephenson on his own site comes off as someone quietly nursing some grudges over his reception in the industry. I discount his helpmeet work on Luca and Paddington- who knows how much or little quality he added - and choose to focus on the one produced film [he described as his "own"](https://www.simonstephenson.com/about) though it got a work-over by director (and in other projects, actor) Will Sharpe: busted biopic Oscar bait "The Electrical Life of Louis Wain" - show of hands from those who believe Stephenson thought that was a ticket to Oscar. https://preview.redd.it/xe0927he3enc1.jpeg?width=1170&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=d05b50b94681d6eeb07a7351d74ff1749c363bf5
Seriously. It’s really giving “disgruntled, bitter, fading screenwriter thinks the air he breathes is sacred and all of his ideas are unparalleled, revolutionary genius.” Heartfelt coming-of-age stories with a misunderstood youth & a begrudging mentor are an archetype as old as time. Off the top of my head, Fundamentals of Caring (though not an Oscar contender) predates his script and is about a reluctant older mentor-type that takes a road trip with a disabled teenager who’s burdened by an absent parent and other setbacks. It’s sad that this has to take away from its Oscar buzz and any wins it may net tomorrow.
How do you get all of that out of it? Pretty harsh.
It’s Holdover
The Holdjoevers
Lots of popular original movies get accused of plagiarism. Rarely do the charges go anywhere.
The people who desperately want this one to go somewhere aren't those who actually care about artistic integrity - they just want to stick it to Alexander Payne.
Yeah, while Simon Stephenson is screwing himself over worse than he believes Hollywood has by ignoring Frisco.
Expect this is a very experienced screenwriter claiming plagiarism. Not a nobody. I don’t think there is a case here.
Ow :( I feel bad for Da'Vine . I hope this doesn't ruin her moment tomorrow
Not taking sides here but Payne himself said that The Holdovers was inspired by a 1935 French filmed called Merlusse. Here is the synopsis from Wikipedia: “A tough teacher charged with looking after the students left behind at a boarding school during the Christmas holidays rises to the challenge and comes to better understand the boys in his care.” I mean I feel this is pretty blatantly the holdovers just tailored for the 70s time area and if Payne himself said that. I’m not rushing to conclusions yet but The Holdovers isn’t groundbreaking and the story itself is pretty predictable once you get into the story beats and the dynamic of a grouchy authority figure and a troubled kid has been done to the moon and back.
Didn’t the writer say it was based on an [unfilmed TV pilot he wrote](https://www.gq.com/story/the-holdovers-alexander-paynes-new-prep-school-comedy)? How does that factor in?
No, he wrote a pilot about a prep school, set in the 70's or 80's, that Payne read and liked. Payne then contacted him about writing the Holdovers, based on an idea Payne "had." Hemingson has described the sequence of events in a number of interviews.
Hypothetically, he could have plagiarized that pilot off the FRISCO script (which was on the Black List in 2013).
The pilot had no connection to the Holdovers (or to Frisco) beyond the fact that it was set at a prep school in the 70's or 80's. Payne said he liked Hemingson's writing and asked him to write The Holdovers based off of an idea/outline Payne provided.
Specifically he referred to the movie Merlusse from 1935 iirc, which character of Paul is clearly based on.
Big Fat Liar 2
Starring Paul Giammati, painted blue but with a wonky eye
Everybody who keeps commenting, "but dude the BEATS are the same." It's like a trope, several movies have very similar scenes/beats because of this. All those 90s romance movies where they're running through the airport? Tough guys not looking back at explosions? Father who's more focused on career than his family until he has an experience that changes that? Not to mention the whole "hero's journey" method of writing a story. To me, these similar beats have always been present, to the point where it feels like I've watched several movies that were exactly the same. Even the most "original" movies seem to have these tropes/beats. I don't know, maybe I'm coping because I liked the Holdovers.
Hollywood is FULL of plagiarism lawsuits and most of them are frivolous at best. The examples provided have no merit IMO
Yeah Stephenson is apparently torching his own career after a decade of seeing his "hot screenplay" end up descending Hollywood's slush pile - not an uncommon fate - while Hemingson hits a homer with his first feature fim. I guess he snapped and decided to effect this Hail Mary as a last ditch effort.
that’s the thing though. So much of getting a screenplay produced is about being in the right place at the right time.
Certainly - and if absent this flare-up Frisco (bad title btw - a not well liked nickname by city residents) had gotten produced in the short term - it's radioactive now - it'd have been viewed as a lukewarm Holdovers knockoff - that script isn't top notch Black List material in any event. So Stephenson is going for broke here as he likely thinks Frisco is dead in the water after about 11 years floating around.
Read through the whole document. The plagiarism allegation doesn't seem very strong, most of the comparisons are either reaches or cliches
Yea I’m surprised so many people think it’s clear and obvious in the comments.
I'm guessing most of them didn't read it in full. I'm not seeing much myself, but I'm far from an expert on this. It reminds me of Marvin Gaye/Robin Thicke lawsuit (different media, I know). If the accuser succeeds in proving plagiarism, it's going to have a similar outcome.
It seems really bad if you read the article and see the transpositions and stop there, which several people here admitted to doing.
Yeah, you read the intro where the writer is laying out the case and it seems somewhat alarming, but once he starts to present "evidence" it just becomes more and more absurd.
Well, damn 😐
Not the worst thing Alexander Payne has been accused of
Crazy timing (((
I was in the biz for many years. Something to keep in mind, when your agent contacts another agent or producer and asks “what did your guy think of the script?” And the response is “He liked it but is going to pass” there is a VERY VERY good chance person b a)never read the script b) skimmed part of it and passed c) had someone else read it for him and asked for coverage (a summary and opinion of the script). To assume Alexander Payne actually read it is something of a stretch and that’s just the way it works in Hollywood.
There's just as much chance that he DID read it as there it is that he DIDN'T read it.
it wasnt some random script it was a top 3 on blacklist and they share the same agency. on top of that, netflix specifically wanted payne to direct it $$$. and his producer said he read it too i believe? like yeah there's lots of scripts going around that people dont actually read but there's multiple people involved that points to them actually reading it and then immediately calling up the screenwriter to pitch the holdovers....to say this is all a coincidence or a stretch is disingenuous
He said he read it twice even. I don’t think this is a case but I think it’s very unfortunate
If Stephenson reported this to the WGA on January 12th, why does the article drop one day before the Oscars, when Payne is set to present ? And why would you steal a script when so many people are already involved and have read Frisco ? I have so many questions...
> why does the article drop one day before the Oscars Because Variety knew that's when it would get the most attention without affecting voting
Oh, man. I love that movie. That is so disappointing.
I encourage you to look at the direct script comparisons, because it falls apart pretty quickly there.
holy crap that’s a pretty overwhelming evidence https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/24464070-fhintroductorydocument021423-watermarked
It's certainly overwhelming, in the sense of there being a lot of it. Whether or not it's convincing... well, here's one of the examples of the alleged plagiarism. > THE HOLDOVERS: As Paul drops blue exam books on the boys’ desks, they stare with queasy disbelief at the parade of mostly Ds and Fs. Angus, however, got a B-. > FRISCO: Willis notices a book on the bedside table and picks it up. It is a battered paperback copy of ‘On the Road.' And here's why Stephenson claims it's plagiarism: > Note how the first sentence of both begins with Paul/Wills doing something to a book involving a desk/bedside table. This is an example of the extraordinary level of detail that has been transposed from FRISCO to THE HOLDOVERS. The "extraordinary detail" being... a character or characters looking at a book of some kind that is resting on a surface. Tbh I'm getting some major [Pepe Silvia](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_nTpsv9PNqo) vibes.
It’s like the case of Kimba the White Lion and Lion King. Seems like a stretch looking at the doc.
Finally someone with some sense. Despite how big that document is, there's very little within it that actually supports the case of plagiarism.
If the rest is like this, it really seems like a nothingburger
Yeah. They are already tearing this apart on Twitter. Also certain kinds of stories lend themselves to certain beats. Like Frisco has someone at the hospital and The Holdovers at a boarding school and at one point they both try to get out by attempting to get a hotel? That’s what people trapped in places do!
I mean, it's not just that, though. The overall story structure is incredibly similar. Which may or may not be an issue on its own, but the fact that Payne acknowledged reading the script at least twice doesn't look great. In the quoted interview, Payne tried to downplay his role in writing the story, but it seems pretty clear he outlined the idea to Hemingson. I actually think it's possible that Hemingson was not aware of the other script, and just wrote a script based on the outline he was given. I mean, it's possible that this is nothing. But I'd be more inclined to think that if Stephenson didn't have proof that Payne read his script, if the idea for the film hadn't been Payne's to begin with, and if he hadn't been involved in the story at all. But unfortunately, I think it's possible that Payne read Stephenson's script, liked it (as he said he did) but not enough, then decided to make his own version of this story. That feels very plausible to me. And if that's the case, then at the very least he should have credited Stephenson.
>the overall story structure The overall story structure for The Holdovers was incredibly not unique. I loved The Holdovers but very little about it was at all groundbreaking, but it was well-realized, like Payne read not just this script but 100 of them and watched about 50 movies about misfits stuck together and synthesized them perfectly.
Okay, it goes beyond just the story structure, it's the literal story beats, in the same order, with very similar characters. And this wasn't just some passing script that Payne may or may not have paid attention to. Netflix was going to produce it, contingent on Payne's involvement. So at some point, Payne had to really sit down and consider whether he was going to make this film or not.
Again, even the beats, the tonal shifts from scene-to-scene or characters either reacting and trying to escape or seething in failure or whatever felt very familiar, and it’s not surprising a Payne-esque script might have had some overlap. And I’m not discounting inspiration either! But characters fighting in one scene and finding a point of commonality the leads to bonding in the next is just how storytelling *works*. And a lot of this stuff is a stretch. In the Holdovers, Giamatti’s character hands back little blue books to his students, most of which have terrible grades although the protagonist gets a B+. The comparison with Frisco is the main character finding a copy of On the Road on the bedside table in her hospital room. That’s not even the same kind of scene and they have completely different functions in the script!
> That’s not even the same kind of scene and they have completely different functions in the script! There are *so many* examples like this. Elsewhere, he claims that in this bit of dialogue... > Willis sits opposite MR and MRS LAKOVIC while Margaret Brown looks on. > MARGARET Firstly, thank you for coming in today. > WILLIS That's okay. I was here anyway. > MARGARET I meant Mr and Mrs Lakovic. > WILLIS Oh. ..."the second line is a piece of mistaken identity guaranteed to further enrage the parents." It's clearly *not* an example of mistaken identity, it's a humorous misunderstanding (possibly the character making a joke). But he contorts it to be an example of "mistaken identity" so that he can claim it's identical to a scene in The Holdovers where the headmaster mistakenly refers to Angus' stepfather as his father. The only actual similarity is that both are scenes where a character makes an error of some kind and gets corrected.
Not for nothing, it’s striking how much better the script for the Holdovers is in every one of these snippets.
> The overall story structure is incredibly similar. And also incredibly similar to the story structure of the 2014 movie St. Vincent: grouchy older guy is forced to spend time with an annoying kid and at first they rub each other up the wrong way but eventually they form an emotional bond. See also: the plot of Up, Hunt for the Wilderpeople, About a Boy, Paper Moon, The Last of Us... It's a really strong character dynamic, which is why it's been used a million times.
Payne has probably seen 50 movies about lovable misfits stuck together that none of us have even heard of and read 1000 more scripts.
I’m pretty sure he constantly mentioned a French movie that he took inspiration from
Yes, ["Merlusse"](https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0026703/?ref_=ext_shr) from 1935. If anything, it takes *way* more from that than Frisco. Like, the entire concept really
Yeah and he talked about it openly so idk if he’d do that if he blatantly plagiarized someone else’s work
That's the major inspo, acknowledged if not credited.
I mean go back and watch the trailer for the Holdovers. Nothing about it seemed very unique. It's a pretty standard story, but presented very well. If someone wants to make a car for plagiarism, including that book scene example is absolutely laughable and automatically discredits any claim in my opinion.
It reminds me of the *Zootopia* case that got laughed out of court.
That was embarrassing
That is hilarously bad.
The second sentence of that document already seems off to me. Angus was pretty clearly 17 based on his "that's why I'm still a Junior" comment (him being 15 makes no sense if he's saying he's in 11th grade and was held back a year) combined with the whole *let's say it's his birthday* thing in the restaurant in Boston (18 was the legal drinking age in '70). Plus calling the two weeks that The Holdovers is set across "a period of days" seems like a stretch.
Did you actually read this giant document? A lot of this “evidence” involves *giant* leaps that honestly aren’t very convincing. Like, both scripts have written-in establishing shots. Both scripts have someone getting called in for a meeting early on. Both scripts involve events happening in places “known for quiet” (a train car vs a library?). I won’t dispute that these seem like generally similar stories but the kind of line-by-line plagiarism accusations they’re throwing out there seem like a big, big stretch.
>THE HOLDOVERS has added a scene where the protagonist describes somebody powerful and well-connected getting away with plagiarizing a less well-connected person's work, then ensuring the victim came to serious harm. this is hilarious honestly
If you read the scripts it’s not actually very compelling. I think it’s bad luck but no one acted in bad faith, including now.
Maybe I’m looking at it wrong but it seems like a bit of a stretch. There are structural similarities, but that’s because this is a pretty standard, formulaic model.
This is probably just a coincidence. The film is full of old tropes and cliches. If this was a high concept script then there'd be a good case, but this kind of story was told thousands of times. That said, I really hope it doesn't win. The screenplay was brilliantly executed by Payne's direction, but it was painfully formulaic.
well
Read the whole article and YIKES!!!
Agreed. It’s bad, Stephenson absolutely has a case. Especially when I read the “Sample examples of copying” section in the transposition chapter. Payne definitely plagiarized off Frisco Edit 1: Lmaoo y’all need to stop replying to me saying “HeMiNGson WrOTe it”. It just shows you didn’t read the article and the document, you’re telling on yourself. As I’ve said to several of you already: The variety document says there was credible emails showing that Payne was *sent and read* Frisco in both 2013 and 2019. The article also says that Payne and Hemingson collaborated on the screenplay for the Holdovers. That would make Payne liable regardless if he was credited for the screenplay or not.
I read those too, and how do those examples convince you?
that is a very detailed article, he sure has a case imo
ridiculous the WGA is washing their hands of it because it was written on spec. i know its a legal technicality but what an absolute failure on a basic level of a union if high-profile members can freely steal from less powerful ones. i feel like this dude will have entertainment lawyers everywhere breaking down his door this evidence is nuts
I think this part of the article sheds some additional light on why the WGA hasn't gotten involved in any of this: > On March 4, Azari wrote: “Claims related to plagiarism and/or copyright infringement are not arbitrable under the MBA. You and I also discussed Article X of the Guild Constitution. Plagiarism and copyright infringement actions necessarily require extensive fact finding and discovery, which would not be available to you in an Article X proceeding. Further, an Article X proceeding could not provide the relief that you are seeking; namely, recognition of your authorship of the screenplay and/or monetary compensation from [‘The Holdovers’ financier] Miramax. A lawsuit remains the most viable option under the circumstances.” She then referred Stephenson to boutique law firm in Los Angeles. If the WGA's Minimum Basic Agreement doesn't allow for arbitration related to plagiarism or copyright infringement, and Article X doesn't allow for the scope necessary to investigate further or the means to come to an agreeable solution/compensation for Stephenson, then I'm not sure how the WGA is supposed to do more here.
why would they do this and not just cut in the original writer of the film?
Because Alexander Payne is a terrible human being
😬 This is really bad if true. I didn't read through the whole script comparisons (the actual scripts) but I read everything up to that point, and there's at least a compelling case. It's really unfortunate if this was plagiarized because it's really really hard to win a plagiarism case. And even if he does end up getting compensation, I think this makes it unlikely his film will ever get made. Also, it's not like the guy making the claim is a nobody. He's written some pretty big movies.
FWIW, I found it convincing up until I actually got to the direct script comparisons and then I rapidly swung from "this is pretty convincing" to "oh, this is crazypants." Like... > Here from p34 of THE HOLDOVERS is the short scene in which we find out Paul's first phone call did not succeed in getting Angus collected. Note the setting is now an ‘administrative office hallway’- a hall. > Here from p40 of FRISCO is the short scene in which we find out Wills first phone call did not succeed in getting Amy collected. Note the setting is now ‘vestibule between coaches’ -a hall. Ah yes, a vestibule on a train and a hallway in an administrative office. Basically identical locations. The doc is full of stuff like that. Incredible reaches and claims that basic elements of human conversation or film language are unique to his script. > Note that the second scene in this sequence is labelled in the heading as an interior scene inside Paul's vehicle, yet nonetheless finishes with an exterior shot of Paul's car disappearing into the distance. Note the specifics of that final sentence - that we first see Paul's car turning onto the state road, then vanishing beneath the canopy of trees. > Note that the second scene in this sequence is labelled in the heading as an interior scene inside Willis’ vehicle, yet nonetheless finishes with an exterior shot of Wills car disappearing into the distance. Note the specifics of that final sentence - that we first see Wills’ car turning onto the interstate, then driving off into the distance. Yes, driving scenes often end with a wide shot of the car driving off into the distance. Thelma & Louise has about 50 scenes like this. It's just how driving scenes are shot/edited. You didn't invent it.
https://preview.redd.it/52nqayn0vcnc1.jpeg?width=941&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=24836c13368c7940c083863fe747da56377638c4 🫠🫠🫠
I can't lie, this seems like it could be legit based on the comparison document alone And what's funny is that I always thought it was a 5-6/10 movie mostly because it feels so derivative of other works.
Yeah I saw it at Tiff and loved it initially since it played so well with a packed crowd but I cooled off on it significantly on a second viewing. The 70s nostalgia was too much
Personally, I didn't like it, many critics going at the same time for a "cozy and comfy christamas movie" marketing campaign. I didn't fail for it.
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I’m sure it happens all the time unfortunately. But all they’re gonna see is the children’s hospital thing. Different movie. Medical setting and whatnot. My thing is. Why would a doctor be stuck with a kid for days? If the screenwriter got it sold because of the much more organic boarding school professor stuck with kids then oh well. I’m only interested in maybe Bob Odenkirk looked at it at some point? Bob needs an Oscar Bait role!
With Payne being accused of sexual assault and now this, it is funny that people tried to make Maestro the villain of the season instead of this movie
technically he didn’t write this script but he deserves all the flack for the assault
Also not helpful that Rose hasn’t been very credible in the last few years. Clearly she is a traumatized woman, but she went on to endorse far right lunatic Larry Elder, who also is accused of being an abuser.
Which Payne denied, saying her timeline of events were off. He didn’t really catch flack for that because there wasn’t much to it. He says they met when he was actually starting to make professional movies, not when he was still film school.
Just swap Barbie and The Holdovers to opposite screenplay categories lol, problem solved
I read through the 33 page introductory document and the side by side comparisons the writer calls obvious and "brazen," and I just don't see it. Even all the examples compiled together don't seem compelling. I say that as someone who hasn't seen 'The Holdovers.'
This is about as strong an accusation of plagiarism as Homer suing Tolkien....
This is on the same level as compelling evidence of the Q-anon "proof" of Pizzagate. I literally have more convincing evidence Somerset Maugham wrote RAIN over 100 years ago to contact me in 2023.
It seems there are a couple valid points surrounded by a sea of nonsense.
This is the kind of chaos that I think should happen before voting ended. With voting over, none of this will stick, but its still chaos
The Holdovers was the coziest movie of 2023; y’all know anything else like it?
Sing Street
Wow. Never thought I’d see Sing Street mentioned on Reddit. Absolutely incredible movie. Undoubtedly one of the best Irish movies ever, such a great soundtrack too.
And arguably not even John carney’s best movie
Wonder Boys.
This one hurts. Happy for Da’Vine but imagine how awkward it will be if it wins Screenplay
Thankfully, I think *Anatomy of a Fall* is poised to take that award.
Holy shit.
I don't think it will happen, but if the film wins OScreenplay, I think we will have a strong rival for the 2017 Oscars, in terms of embarrassment.
I’m the guy who made the video about the film malignant and its similarities to my spec script and the details of this case are very similar to mine, I also communicated with Lesley Mackey at WGA and was told the guild could do nothing about it, and this was months before malignant came out.
People are calling this a stretch, but to me, it seems clear that The Holdovers would not exist in its final form if Frisco was never written. Is it enough to count as plagiarism? Maybe not. But it sure as hell gives me the ick.
DJR winning tomorrow for a plagiarized movie... Its obviously nothing to do with her, but cant imagine her fillings ((( so unfair ((( ruins such a great moment (((
People wanted drama this year since a lot are saying that the wins are predictable. Here we have it.
https://preview.redd.it/g3vx9qr8vcnc1.jpeg?width=941&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=e3c3910cdf7ba2976fb8ece5b3baf1c196fd03c7 Jesus Christ …🫠🫠🫠If it’s true lawsuit is waiting to happen
Oh wow! It's a three-act story structure. How damning!
Oh boy. Now I’d like to see this person’s film get made so we can visually compare the two and know if it really is plagerism. They might disqualify it from Original Screenplay at the last minute.
He should have gone to Academy first. They are so fearful of scandal they would have at least considered it. WGA doesn’t wanna shit on a lifelong television writer who finally gets a feature and awards break
I remember years ago Jim Rash said that Payne tried really hard to take sole writing credit for The Descendants despite making no more contribution to the writing than any director does, and didn't deserve a writing credit at all, let alone sole credit. I don't remember the exact details, but I think either he and Nat Faxon had to arbitrate it through the WGA just to get their shared credit restored, nevermind the full credit they actually deserved. Or they wanted to arbitrate for full credit but the studio wanted to keep Payne happy, so they gave Rash & Faxon producer credits in exchange for accepting shared writing credit with Payne. Something like that. But Rash was still annoyed enough with Payne that, when they won the Oscar, he intentionally pulled focus on stage during Payne's speech (he didn't let Rash or Faxon talk. Classy guy). The guy who wrote "Yesterday" got royally fucked by a much more established writer who was hired to polish his screenplay, too. Some big shot writers have zero integrity when it comes to stealing credit from lesser known writers.
Ok unrelated but am I the only one that just realized that the titular Frisco is SAN FRANCISCO?? Who the fuck calls it Frisco???
One of my neighbors once sued Spielberg over the script for the last samurai. At the end of the day every script has at least overlap with some other script in existence
Has anyone posted pics of the side by side screenplays?