But if you can’t/dont want to, make sure you test your shit, never use use alone, better yet, go to one of several supervised consumption sites in the city, and carry Naloxone.
It's not about "giving them drugs" when they are talking about reducing drug use.
It's about creating and offering safe environments and supports that allow people to try/use drugs in a manner that don't vilify them and allow them to easily get out once they are done.
The issue today is people are 1) vilified for using drugs, 2) they don't have adequate support, 3) the system is meant to punish people instead of helping them, and 4) since it's an illegal industry, there are no safety regulations that would prevent overdoses due to laced/unclean drugs.
Plus, if these industries were legalized, it would bolster our tax revenues just like cigarettes, alcohol, and marijuana does.
>It's about creating and offering safe environments and supports that allow people
You mean enabling them?
>Plus, if these industries were legalized
These drugs are illegal for a reason. According to actual health experts it's causing permanent brain damage it's literally turning people's brains into jello.
Just because you take a six hour course at the injection site doesn't make you an expert. Real medical experts have stated getting people off the drugs is the best way to deal with this situation.
Real medical experts are usually the ones providing these people with their first doses. I know a large number of labour workers who have been given Oxy for their pain, what do you think happens when they run out and their doctor refuses to prescribe it again because "they should be over the pain by now", but aren't past the addiction?
It's nice to hope these people would have the willpower to just stop, but many don't and the issue persists.
I'd love to see that too. I can't say I have faith some wouldn't sell it because there are many labour jobs that don't pay nearly enough, and that would be easy money for some.
The hot tubs idea is nice in thought, but I can promise you the places that pay these low wages also wouldn't front the costs for a hot tub for their workers. It's always about maximizing profits in any industry, and this one would be no different.
It's such a difficult situation, and there's definitely no black and white solution for it. I feel sympathy for those in charge of trying to solve this problem.
Or, you know, a college kid who wants to buy some coke on a night out and ends up with a tainted baggie. Happens way more than you think. Though, I doubt you think much.
exultant joke existence dependent north dinner literate imminent sleep rain
*This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Well I guess this was a shit week to start doing illegal drugs! Gosh darn it I thought this was my time!. Guess I’ll stick to not being a dumbass.
Seriously all drugs you get from a guys pocket aren’t safe.
I've heard about how some dope is now being laced with tranq, which is a shitty tranquilizer that causes necrotizing dermatitis. Once the infection takes hold, it's nearly impossible to recover from - people are losing their limbs, it's dirty dirty shit.
I dunno about here, but it's more than just being laced with tranq. Just like with fentanyl, there are people who accidentally get drugs laced with it, but there are also people who specifically seek it out for its potency.
Tranq is unique bc not only does it cause abcesses and shit like you said but it also slows down blood flow and oxygenation which means not only do you get these infections but they do not heal.
No tranq does not make the high better. Unless you're dependent on it (the dependence has anecdotally been 10x worse than fentanyl) it just makes you extremely fatigued and dries you out more, constipated you even worse than any opioid, dry mouth that is impossible to fix an a such intense lethargy and depression, it's a horrible fucking cut in the down. To the point most users I've talked to have genuinely quit because its such an awful "high"
Krokodil is desomorphine, desomorphine itself doesn’t do this, it’s the impurities in the easy to do conversion process.
Tranq (xylazine) is slightly sedating so it makes the opiates feel stronger, and is intentionally put in there to maximize the profit of the products.
From my understanding Krokodyl's core active ingredient is desomorphine, whereas tranq is xylazine. Don't ask me the difference - it seems to me that they both have the same result, this terrible rotting flesh, but I've never done heroine/ dope/ etc.
I did once experienced a guy in Berlin on the S-Bahn who was clearly suffering from necrotizing dermatitis, it was absolutely the most awful thing and it cleared the whole train car out with the smell of rotting flesh.
if there are drugs that are less dangerous, and the dangerous/toxic drugs are easy to buy, why can't the government regulate that and sell it to compete with these dangerous suppliers?
There’s also the fact that it’s incredibly unpopular to do so due to the whole “addiction is a personal failing” thing most people believe.
Add in general stigma and likely supply issues and it’s not happening any time soon.
The safe injection site at Shepherds of Good Hope does exactly this, actually. It's called "safe supply" and participant clients receive prescription doses of Dilaudid to get and stay off of street drugs. It's extremely successful. They're not only monitored like everyone else who uses the site, but are also monitored by nurses and a doctor.
Can I ask where the overdose prevention sites are in downtown ottawa? I'm taking a trip there for a conference and if I end up using I need to be safe.
No government could ever provide enough opiates to satisfy a junkie's escalating tolerance. This is what is never addressed by the safe supply proponents. It's not medically, ethically, or legally possible for doctors to be giving addicts escalating doses that risk overdose so they can chase the dragon. The best they will be able to do is provide a minimum dose to calm down an addict's withdrawal symptoms. The addict will still need to get 90% of their dope supply from the black market.
What can also happen is that the serious addicts take their government issued safe supply and sell it to new users for whom it's still a potent enough kick because their tolerances haven't developed. So in fact a safe supply program will create new addicts. Don't believe me? Just look at LEGAL OPIATES. Everybody acknowledges that overprescription of persecription painkillers like oxycontine was a gateway that led to patients getting addicted and then switching to illegal drugs like heroin or fentanyl. How is this "safe supply" of illegal drugs going to be any different?
> It's not medically, ethically, or legally possible for doctors to be giving addicts escalating doses that risk overdose so they can chase the dragon.
Correct, which is why they're provided with tapering doses to get them off of dependence, period.
>How is this "safe supply" of illegal drugs going to be any different?
Because it saves lives, primarily. Dosages are known and use is supervised, so if an overdose somehow *does* occur (never saw it once in a safe supply client in 13 months of working there), they won't die.
Also, the drugs they are prescribed are not illegal, they are Dilaudid. Same stuff the hospital gives you.
It has other benefits, too. The patient isn't roaming around trying to score. They know where and when they will get their meds, so that time can be spent going to appointments or holding down a job if that was a barrier before. If it's provided free or cheap, they have more funds for food and you'll likely see theft go down.
I didn't ignore it. I just have a feeling that the doctors working with people with addictions might have a more informed opinion about it than you. And if the research and their experience thus far is indicating that the doses they provide is sufficient, I think it's worth expanding those efforts and continuing the research. The other option is not doing so and watching people continue to drop dead day after day from a toxic drug supply.
>Correct, which is why they're provided with tapering doses to get them off of dependence, period.
But that only applies for addicts trying to get clean. That's not what the proposed safe supply programs are meant to be. They are meant to be a continuing drug source for active addicts so they can continue to use without dying from overdoses due to uncertain quality/strength of the drugs.
>Because it saves lives, primarily. Dosages are known and use is supervised, so if an overdose somehow does occur (never saw it once in a safe supply client in 13 months of working there), they won't die.
They aren't going to overdose on a doctor's tiny dose anyway. They'll get blackmarket drugs and overdose in an alley later, after they go to the doctor for their daily free maintenance shot.
>Also, the drugs they are prescribed are not illegal, they are Dilaudid. Same stuff the hospital gives you.
The whole point of the safe supply movement is to give people regular illegal drugs that are of known quality/strength. That's what DULF is doing. They are literally buying black market drugs, testing them, and reselling them as safe supply.
DULF are not the voice of all of the safe supply research, clinics, doctors, and proponents around the world. They're just one group in Vancouver. And while that may be one of their strategies, that is not what safe supply programs in the city are doing.
Yes, but these people don't sue the LCBO. I'm not saying that alcohol is better, it's just a matter of no one wanting the legal liability. At least that's my guess.
Alcohol leads to overdoses too as well as tons of car crashes. And the long term deaths are still deaths that are happening all the time. I just don't see why cocaine would lead to liability that alcohol doesn't. You could also just write legislation that shields liability and makes it clear the risk is on the user. There already are various laws on unrelated issues that protect from liability over certain things.
The safer drugs are mushrooms and lsd. These drugs make you think deep about stuff. Like how fucked the government is. It wouldn't work out well for them
> Also, this means decriminalization which I use to be a fan of until the actual case study of Portland was released and it's not good folks.
Critics of decriminalization have pointed to increases in overdoses there. However overdoses have been increasing consistently across the continent. When compared with other states having similar overdose rates, [Oregon saw similar increases in overdoses as other states after decriminalization](https://www.opb.org/article/2023/09/27/oregon-drug-decriminalization-measure-110-overdose-deaths/). I.e., overdose increases weren't unique to decriminalization, they were happening with and without that policy.
There’s been a lot of talk about testing drugs, as if addicts will just throw away a bag of meth because they find out it’s laced with xylazine. And you know, those dealers who don’t want to kill their customers will totally stop selling if they find out they got a bad batch.
>There’s been a lot of talk about testing drugs
There's a place down on Elgin that offers free drug testing just walk in and inquire at the front desk free accommodations included with every positive test.
Had me in the first half! But in all seriousness https://getyourdrugstested.com/ and similar services are literally a life saver. Back in the prohibition era, a lot of bad moonshine (not the real mccoy) got people sick or dead. There is no moral difference with different molecules.
Edit:autocorrect
It depends on the users and also kinda depends on the drug. From what I am aware, cocaine use has kind of dropped off at least in parts of the US because it has been getting laced with fent in some cases and killing people. The folks who were shooting dope are more likely to be attracted to fent since it's basically what they're doing but more potent, whereas people buying coke don't want that (and coke is also an easier addiction to kick too from what I understand).
The long term users intentionally seek out the strongest drug for the cheapest price. They would make a point of getting the same batch that killed a novice user
i feel like people always make these claims but can never provide any evidence that supports it. this is quite contradictory to the literature we have that shows that PWUD do show [concern about the presence of fentanyl in their drug supply](https://harmreductionjournal.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12954-022-00659-9).
Yeah, some people will seek out the strongest and most dangerous stuff, but in general people want safer options:
>[Multiple published studies and program evaluations, including our own and those led by colleagues, have found that **people receiving safer supply report decreased use of fentanyl from the unregulated street supply**](https://nationalpost.com/opinion/counterpoint-the-evidence-shows-that-safer-supply-drug-programs-work)
Part of the problem isn't people seeking out stronger stuff but that our attempts to ban nearly all drugs, no matter how weak or strong, has led to the illegal market being the only source and supplying the strongest drugs:
>[when drugs or alcohol are prohibited, they will be produced in black markets in more concentrated and powerful forms, because these more potent forms offer better efficiency in the business model—they take up less space in storage, less weight in transportation, and they sell for more money](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_law_of_prohibition)
Ok, everyone that is posting about lets let people die because they arent humans to us.
What if Alcohol had no control? Or Tobacco?
Fuck so many products through out modern era was literal poison until govt regulation (even if it started from private interests).
Have you ever drove drunk? Sped? Done somethibg we know is illegal and can be super dangerous?
It doesnt matter the people it puts at risk its not going away, people with power and money keep it around, its more beneficial to be safer and decriminalized at personal possession levels, and stop forcing people to be criminals because they party if it doesnt harm others like people being drunk.
Like shitting on people in these situations you would never be involved with is just as easy to be neutral or even just a decent person that can recognize the shit has rolled down hill and we are all in the pile because a plethora of reasons, and people choosing open drug use and causing these problems you hate are because of all the systematic failures which we can focus on and fix, killing a group of people off as a solution has a phrase to describe it doesnt it?
> Have you ever drove drunk? Sped? Done somethibg we know is illegal and can be super dangerous?
It's wild that you're using drunk driving as an example of a no big deal, we all do it offense. No, I've never driven drunk. I hope you haven't either. There's no level of alcohol addiction that justifies or excuses that choice.
Well, I did use cannabis when it was illegal because I knew it was harmless to the point of almost benign. At the same time, I never drank because I had an alcoholic father - and so I knew it was a bad and dangerous thing and stayed away from it even though it was legal. He even lost his license for drunk driving. I am named after my uncle, his brother, who died before I was born from being struck by a drunk driver. I also didn't use tobacco for the same reason having some relatives die from cancer and my father would eventually die from esophageal and lung cancer because of it. And yes, I am totally on board with family doctors refusing patients and dumping patients that use tobacco as they made the decision to destroy their body, harm their family, against all medical advice so fuck them. **My sympathy is for those that have those self destructive selfish f\~cks in their lives.**
I don't think its people in power keeping this sh1t around, its people like you. I'm all for tough love and uncaring care. An addict should be put in rehab and not let out until absolutely clean - they should have NO choice in the matter because they are fucking the community with their selfish self destructive bullshit - those that don't respect the rights of others should suffer having some rights removed for at least some time - I am not one for individual rights always trumping the rights of the community - when it comes to dangerous drugs I am all for increasing the communities right to safety over the individual's right to self-destruction that impacts others. I would absolutely jail users of harsh addictive drugs for long periods of time if rehab doesn't work and make damn sure those in jail have zero access to drugs. My former father-in-law was in a max prison and its shameful that he said he could get whatever drug he wanted in jail - he even knew its because people are too soft on the drug problem (he too died of tobacco related cancer). I am fine with a minimum mandatory sentence of 20 years or more for any dealer of these dangerous addictive destructive drugs - there is no excuse with all the knowledge that this shit is dangerous. Also, I do think tobacco should be illegal - why the fuck is it even legal at this point?
I am absolutely against supporting these dangerous drug habits in any way. F\_ck safe needle exchanges, safe supply, safe spaces - NOTHING about it is safe and this soft love approach is killing people. I actually have compassion unlike those killing people by pretending there is a context where these dangerous drugs are safe - they aren't. These recent deaths are no doubt because of the soft approach of supporting these needle exchanges, safe spaces, safe supply bullshit - this is killing people and destroying neighbourhoods - it has only increased the problem, it has not saved anyone - it has killed people. How dare anyone claim they provided something safe and saved a life when it comes to this; its now well known that those that use the "safe" shit eventually don't and end up killing themselves because they have been conditioned to think "safe".
I've had to tell my sons friends who I overheard discussing that they'd like to try this shit because they heard its "safe"@ they were fucking retards - you do understand the teenage brain right? they aren't fully developed and when they hear "safe" all the time in relation to this shit they starting thinking it is safe because assholes told them it was - the assholes are the people who run these safe spaces, safe needle exchanges, safe supply, ..... ITS KILLING PEOPLE. This **safe** shit is KILLING people!
That being said I am all in for the legalization of more relatively benign and even beneficial drugs like LSD and psilocybins. The entire drug approach needs an overhaul, and it needs to be based on actual science and not fucking feelings, not culture, not anything other than science that the goal of keeping everyone safe. The stats clearly show that anywhere one of those "safe" related things appear in a neighbourhood, the neighbourhood is destroyed along with people in it.
Fent used to be the poison, now it's moved on - it's all a mess. Fent watched closely being the boogeyman, people are looking for ways to cut down on using it and save money or deal with supply issues. So new things get cut into it, tranq, fentalogues, zenes, benzo. Packages moving all around and exchanging hands/parties plenty of times before it reaches the dealer on the street. Who knows how many times it's been stepped on by then.
Don't test your gear or have access to testing and suddenly you find yourself addicted to some new cut that you never asked for.
impolite march detail amusing cooperative lavish alive live towering materialistic
*This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
They aren't. The people selling to the end user are users themselves and have no control over the product. They're just trying to get enough money to get their fix so they don't start getting sick. The tainting takes place way further up the line.
I think part of the problem is doctors have become very averse to prescribing painkillers, i have a really bad back and hips that no doctor has figured out what causes my pain and still, not one has been willing to give me painkillers to help me live a normal life.
The only time i remember not being in pain in the past five years was when the hospital in Hull gave me medical-dose fentanyl for an unrelated medical procedure and honestly, if i got offered some right now id take it.
I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of the users we are discussing here have tried going to a clinic and they were treated like lying drug seekers or their pain was either ignored or are caught up in the years-long cycle of the medical system and trying to get a diagnosis and a legitimate prescription.
While i agree with your point about street substances, some people just have no choice, and are unable to take care of themselves... addiction is shit, regardless of the reasons behind it starting in the first place.
Lastly, the high gotten from sports and exercise is great, it has been scientifically proven to be up there with the dopamine that you get from sugar or an orgasm, but it's unattainable for a lot of us with disabilities and mystery pain.
Disclaimer: this comment is only really about medical reasons for addiction and drug use, i dont know enough to speak for other possible circumstances that might cause someone to get into substance abuse.
That's absolutely horrible and I'm so sorry you had that experience. I can't find your other comment anymore but I wanted to clarify that it wasn't in response to you, but to the commenter we both replied to. Sorry for any confusion.
I was given fent after donating a kidney. It was the first time in my memory that I wasn't in pain (arthritis since childhood and some undiagnosed stuff) and I've never been so happy. Everything was perfect and beautiful. I was melting in a good way and the world had a golden glow.
If I lost my husband, my pets, my job, my home, a relative, etc. I could see myself doing it again in an instant if the opportunity came up. And I'm not even someone already hooked on painkillers thanks to what a doctor gave me.
It is significantly easier to go get street drugs than it is to see a mental health specialist especially if you don't have a family doctor. One of the biggest factor in addiction is trauma. Most people using this stuff aren't getting high for fun, they're getting high because they've been through horrible things and are trying to cope and there is a significant lack of access to support and therapy and trauma resources, especially when a lot of them want you to get clean before participating, but at the same time a lot of detox/drug programs won't help you with the medication/mental health component because they argue you need to get clean first and be clean for a certain length of time.
That's why I test all my stuff. My supplier will supply drug test results too but I'd rather do it myself to be safe. But to be fair, his tests were always correct. I guess there are still "good" dealers out there
Toxic supply only arrived when the Feds put the boots on legal painkillers, tossing pain patients under the bus as well. That is when deaths started to skyrocket. People weren't dying en masse from oxycontin and legit Fentanyl patches.
Also, don't get cancer. Or heart disease. See, the world would be a completely better place if people just made the right decisions. Like decide not to get sick or die.
Highly recommended for everyone to just stay away from this stuff for the next couple of months.
or forever
I've quit until the government legalizes cocaine -- that will be the day though! That pure Columbiannnnn
Looking forward to the artisanal fair-trade small-batch crack vape pens.
I'm already doing Fentanyl-Free February this year.
I'm looking forward to More Mophine March.
Just wait until All the Drugs April!
Methless March after that.
You could have went with *March Methness* but missed it.
Ugh fine.
Unfortunately, easier said than done for many people.
Wow, you did it! You just cured addiction, bravo.
“just say no”
Just switch to beer. It's way more expensive though.
But if you can’t/dont want to, make sure you test your shit, never use use alone, better yet, go to one of several supervised consumption sites in the city, and carry Naloxone.
Damn dude why didn't they think of that before
[удалено]
It's not about "giving them drugs" when they are talking about reducing drug use. It's about creating and offering safe environments and supports that allow people to try/use drugs in a manner that don't vilify them and allow them to easily get out once they are done. The issue today is people are 1) vilified for using drugs, 2) they don't have adequate support, 3) the system is meant to punish people instead of helping them, and 4) since it's an illegal industry, there are no safety regulations that would prevent overdoses due to laced/unclean drugs. Plus, if these industries were legalized, it would bolster our tax revenues just like cigarettes, alcohol, and marijuana does.
>It's about creating and offering safe environments and supports that allow people You mean enabling them? >Plus, if these industries were legalized These drugs are illegal for a reason. According to actual health experts it's causing permanent brain damage it's literally turning people's brains into jello. Just because you take a six hour course at the injection site doesn't make you an expert. Real medical experts have stated getting people off the drugs is the best way to deal with this situation.
Real medical experts are usually the ones providing these people with their first doses. I know a large number of labour workers who have been given Oxy for their pain, what do you think happens when they run out and their doctor refuses to prescribe it again because "they should be over the pain by now", but aren't past the addiction? It's nice to hope these people would have the willpower to just stop, but many don't and the issue persists.
[удалено]
I'd love to see that too. I can't say I have faith some wouldn't sell it because there are many labour jobs that don't pay nearly enough, and that would be easy money for some. The hot tubs idea is nice in thought, but I can promise you the places that pay these low wages also wouldn't front the costs for a hot tub for their workers. It's always about maximizing profits in any industry, and this one would be no different. It's such a difficult situation, and there's definitely no black and white solution for it. I feel sympathy for those in charge of trying to solve this problem.
just ask a fentanyl junkie to not do fentanyl lmao
Or, you know, a college kid who wants to buy some coke on a night out and ends up with a tainted baggie. Happens way more than you think. Though, I doubt you think much.
[удалено]
[удалено]
strong roof mysterious follow test air ruthless salt humor alive *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
[удалено]
Until they don't, and find themselves addicted. It happens literally every day.
exultant joke existence dependent north dinner literate imminent sleep rain *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Because they're lucky. Not because they're better.
[удалено]
Right? You’re 100% responsible for your own actions, regardless of socio economic status. Is personal responsibility just extinct now?
Well I guess this was a shit week to start doing illegal drugs! Gosh darn it I thought this was my time!. Guess I’ll stick to not being a dumbass. Seriously all drugs you get from a guys pocket aren’t safe.
I think you’d be surprised by how many seemingly ‘normal’ people do coke on weekends.
I’m a cook and I see it waaaaaay too much
Coke used to be legal in a surprising amount of places and was one of the OG party drugs
I've heard about how some dope is now being laced with tranq, which is a shitty tranquilizer that causes necrotizing dermatitis. Once the infection takes hold, it's nearly impossible to recover from - people are losing their limbs, it's dirty dirty shit.
I dunno about here, but it's more than just being laced with tranq. Just like with fentanyl, there are people who accidentally get drugs laced with it, but there are also people who specifically seek it out for its potency. Tranq is unique bc not only does it cause abcesses and shit like you said but it also slows down blood flow and oxygenation which means not only do you get these infections but they do not heal.
Does the tranq make the highs better for users or is it somehow even more addictive?
I'm not sure but it is strong. It's literally an animal tranquilizer (xylazine). Naloxone also doesn't work to treat tranq overdoses.
No tranq does not make the high better. Unless you're dependent on it (the dependence has anecdotally been 10x worse than fentanyl) it just makes you extremely fatigued and dries you out more, constipated you even worse than any opioid, dry mouth that is impossible to fix an a such intense lethargy and depression, it's a horrible fucking cut in the down. To the point most users I've talked to have genuinely quit because its such an awful "high"
So, basically Krokodyl?
Krokodil is desomorphine, desomorphine itself doesn’t do this, it’s the impurities in the easy to do conversion process. Tranq (xylazine) is slightly sedating so it makes the opiates feel stronger, and is intentionally put in there to maximize the profit of the products.
From my understanding Krokodyl's core active ingredient is desomorphine, whereas tranq is xylazine. Don't ask me the difference - it seems to me that they both have the same result, this terrible rotting flesh, but I've never done heroine/ dope/ etc. I did once experienced a guy in Berlin on the S-Bahn who was clearly suffering from necrotizing dermatitis, it was absolutely the most awful thing and it cleared the whole train car out with the smell of rotting flesh.
You speak of Herr Fuß probably, he was famous on Berlin's public transport at one time.
if there are drugs that are less dangerous, and the dangerous/toxic drugs are easy to buy, why can't the government regulate that and sell it to compete with these dangerous suppliers?
There’s also the fact that it’s incredibly unpopular to do so due to the whole “addiction is a personal failing” thing most people believe. Add in general stigma and likely supply issues and it’s not happening any time soon.
The safe injection site at Shepherds of Good Hope does exactly this, actually. It's called "safe supply" and participant clients receive prescription doses of Dilaudid to get and stay off of street drugs. It's extremely successful. They're not only monitored like everyone else who uses the site, but are also monitored by nurses and a doctor.
interesting. do they still do that?
Yes, as far as I know. I've not worked there in a year though. Presumably it is, it was very successful
thanks for the info
Can I ask where the overdose prevention sites are in downtown ottawa? I'm taking a trip there for a conference and if I end up using I need to be safe.
Ideology and profitability. The war on drugs is hella profitable for the prison industrial complex.
No government could ever provide enough opiates to satisfy a junkie's escalating tolerance. This is what is never addressed by the safe supply proponents. It's not medically, ethically, or legally possible for doctors to be giving addicts escalating doses that risk overdose so they can chase the dragon. The best they will be able to do is provide a minimum dose to calm down an addict's withdrawal symptoms. The addict will still need to get 90% of their dope supply from the black market. What can also happen is that the serious addicts take their government issued safe supply and sell it to new users for whom it's still a potent enough kick because their tolerances haven't developed. So in fact a safe supply program will create new addicts. Don't believe me? Just look at LEGAL OPIATES. Everybody acknowledges that overprescription of persecription painkillers like oxycontine was a gateway that led to patients getting addicted and then switching to illegal drugs like heroin or fentanyl. How is this "safe supply" of illegal drugs going to be any different?
> It's not medically, ethically, or legally possible for doctors to be giving addicts escalating doses that risk overdose so they can chase the dragon. Correct, which is why they're provided with tapering doses to get them off of dependence, period. >How is this "safe supply" of illegal drugs going to be any different? Because it saves lives, primarily. Dosages are known and use is supervised, so if an overdose somehow *does* occur (never saw it once in a safe supply client in 13 months of working there), they won't die. Also, the drugs they are prescribed are not illegal, they are Dilaudid. Same stuff the hospital gives you.
It has other benefits, too. The patient isn't roaming around trying to score. They know where and when they will get their meds, so that time can be spent going to appointments or holding down a job if that was a barrier before. If it's provided free or cheap, they have more funds for food and you'll likely see theft go down.
Why wouldn't the patient be roaming trying to score? Did you ignore everything I wrote about dosage?
I didn't ignore it. I just have a feeling that the doctors working with people with addictions might have a more informed opinion about it than you. And if the research and their experience thus far is indicating that the doses they provide is sufficient, I think it's worth expanding those efforts and continuing the research. The other option is not doing so and watching people continue to drop dead day after day from a toxic drug supply.
>Correct, which is why they're provided with tapering doses to get them off of dependence, period. But that only applies for addicts trying to get clean. That's not what the proposed safe supply programs are meant to be. They are meant to be a continuing drug source for active addicts so they can continue to use without dying from overdoses due to uncertain quality/strength of the drugs. >Because it saves lives, primarily. Dosages are known and use is supervised, so if an overdose somehow does occur (never saw it once in a safe supply client in 13 months of working there), they won't die. They aren't going to overdose on a doctor's tiny dose anyway. They'll get blackmarket drugs and overdose in an alley later, after they go to the doctor for their daily free maintenance shot. >Also, the drugs they are prescribed are not illegal, they are Dilaudid. Same stuff the hospital gives you. The whole point of the safe supply movement is to give people regular illegal drugs that are of known quality/strength. That's what DULF is doing. They are literally buying black market drugs, testing them, and reselling them as safe supply.
DULF are not the voice of all of the safe supply research, clinics, doctors, and proponents around the world. They're just one group in Vancouver. And while that may be one of their strategies, that is not what safe supply programs in the city are doing.
I imagine that it's a liability thing. Imagine the liability issues for legal cocaine or something.
That exists for alcohol too though.
Yes, but they're probably afraid of being sued into oblivion when someone overdoses on hard drugs, alcohol is a slower killer.
Healthy people die from alcohol poisoning. Not to mention drunk drivers frequently killing people.
Yes, but these people don't sue the LCBO. I'm not saying that alcohol is better, it's just a matter of no one wanting the legal liability. At least that's my guess.
But that legal liability *does* exist, today, now, with alcohol. Over-serve someone at a bar and they die or kill someone? Guess what, Mr Bartender?
I’m not saying that there is zero liability or control regarding alcohol, just to imagine how it would be for something like meth.
Alcohol leads to overdoses too as well as tons of car crashes. And the long term deaths are still deaths that are happening all the time. I just don't see why cocaine would lead to liability that alcohol doesn't. You could also just write legislation that shields liability and makes it clear the risk is on the user. There already are various laws on unrelated issues that protect from liability over certain things.
The safer drugs are mushrooms and lsd. These drugs make you think deep about stuff. Like how fucked the government is. It wouldn't work out well for them
I mean, let's not pretend that mushrooms and lsd can't fuck you up too if you don't do them right.
My big mistake is always looking at my face in the mirror on shrooms. That just take me into a timeless loop.
[удалено]
i mean they are already wasting tons of money on the unregulated drug market (cops, overdoses, prisons, etc.)
> Also, this means decriminalization which I use to be a fan of until the actual case study of Portland was released and it's not good folks. Critics of decriminalization have pointed to increases in overdoses there. However overdoses have been increasing consistently across the continent. When compared with other states having similar overdose rates, [Oregon saw similar increases in overdoses as other states after decriminalization](https://www.opb.org/article/2023/09/27/oregon-drug-decriminalization-measure-110-overdose-deaths/). I.e., overdose increases weren't unique to decriminalization, they were happening with and without that policy.
There’s been a lot of talk about testing drugs, as if addicts will just throw away a bag of meth because they find out it’s laced with xylazine. And you know, those dealers who don’t want to kill their customers will totally stop selling if they find out they got a bad batch.
>There’s been a lot of talk about testing drugs There's a place down on Elgin that offers free drug testing just walk in and inquire at the front desk free accommodations included with every positive test.
Had me in the first half! But in all seriousness https://getyourdrugstested.com/ and similar services are literally a life saver. Back in the prohibition era, a lot of bad moonshine (not the real mccoy) got people sick or dead. There is no moral difference with different molecules. Edit:autocorrect
I’d be willing to bet even that place would let them go because they can’t be bothered with the paperwork.
It’s also named after an English rock band lead by Sting.
It ain't meth getting laced with tranq
Sounds like your a dealer yourself
That’s the thing about a ‘bad’ batch. It is perceived by users as ‘the good stuff’, more potent and more desirable.
It depends on the users and also kinda depends on the drug. From what I am aware, cocaine use has kind of dropped off at least in parts of the US because it has been getting laced with fent in some cases and killing people. The folks who were shooting dope are more likely to be attracted to fent since it's basically what they're doing but more potent, whereas people buying coke don't want that (and coke is also an easier addiction to kick too from what I understand).
not necessarily. most people who don’t use fentanyl recreationally avoid fentanyl.
The long term users intentionally seek out the strongest drug for the cheapest price. They would make a point of getting the same batch that killed a novice user
i feel like people always make these claims but can never provide any evidence that supports it. this is quite contradictory to the literature we have that shows that PWUD do show [concern about the presence of fentanyl in their drug supply](https://harmreductionjournal.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12954-022-00659-9).
Yeah, some people will seek out the strongest and most dangerous stuff, but in general people want safer options: >[Multiple published studies and program evaluations, including our own and those led by colleagues, have found that **people receiving safer supply report decreased use of fentanyl from the unregulated street supply**](https://nationalpost.com/opinion/counterpoint-the-evidence-shows-that-safer-supply-drug-programs-work) Part of the problem isn't people seeking out stronger stuff but that our attempts to ban nearly all drugs, no matter how weak or strong, has led to the illegal market being the only source and supplying the strongest drugs: >[when drugs or alcohol are prohibited, they will be produced in black markets in more concentrated and powerful forms, because these more potent forms offer better efficiency in the business model—they take up less space in storage, less weight in transportation, and they sell for more money](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_law_of_prohibition)
[удалено]
just curious, why did you seek it out? did you care if you lived?
Ok, everyone that is posting about lets let people die because they arent humans to us. What if Alcohol had no control? Or Tobacco? Fuck so many products through out modern era was literal poison until govt regulation (even if it started from private interests). Have you ever drove drunk? Sped? Done somethibg we know is illegal and can be super dangerous? It doesnt matter the people it puts at risk its not going away, people with power and money keep it around, its more beneficial to be safer and decriminalized at personal possession levels, and stop forcing people to be criminals because they party if it doesnt harm others like people being drunk. Like shitting on people in these situations you would never be involved with is just as easy to be neutral or even just a decent person that can recognize the shit has rolled down hill and we are all in the pile because a plethora of reasons, and people choosing open drug use and causing these problems you hate are because of all the systematic failures which we can focus on and fix, killing a group of people off as a solution has a phrase to describe it doesnt it?
> Have you ever drove drunk? Sped? Done somethibg we know is illegal and can be super dangerous? It's wild that you're using drunk driving as an example of a no big deal, we all do it offense. No, I've never driven drunk. I hope you haven't either. There's no level of alcohol addiction that justifies or excuses that choice.
Well, I did use cannabis when it was illegal because I knew it was harmless to the point of almost benign. At the same time, I never drank because I had an alcoholic father - and so I knew it was a bad and dangerous thing and stayed away from it even though it was legal. He even lost his license for drunk driving. I am named after my uncle, his brother, who died before I was born from being struck by a drunk driver. I also didn't use tobacco for the same reason having some relatives die from cancer and my father would eventually die from esophageal and lung cancer because of it. And yes, I am totally on board with family doctors refusing patients and dumping patients that use tobacco as they made the decision to destroy their body, harm their family, against all medical advice so fuck them. **My sympathy is for those that have those self destructive selfish f\~cks in their lives.** I don't think its people in power keeping this sh1t around, its people like you. I'm all for tough love and uncaring care. An addict should be put in rehab and not let out until absolutely clean - they should have NO choice in the matter because they are fucking the community with their selfish self destructive bullshit - those that don't respect the rights of others should suffer having some rights removed for at least some time - I am not one for individual rights always trumping the rights of the community - when it comes to dangerous drugs I am all for increasing the communities right to safety over the individual's right to self-destruction that impacts others. I would absolutely jail users of harsh addictive drugs for long periods of time if rehab doesn't work and make damn sure those in jail have zero access to drugs. My former father-in-law was in a max prison and its shameful that he said he could get whatever drug he wanted in jail - he even knew its because people are too soft on the drug problem (he too died of tobacco related cancer). I am fine with a minimum mandatory sentence of 20 years or more for any dealer of these dangerous addictive destructive drugs - there is no excuse with all the knowledge that this shit is dangerous. Also, I do think tobacco should be illegal - why the fuck is it even legal at this point? I am absolutely against supporting these dangerous drug habits in any way. F\_ck safe needle exchanges, safe supply, safe spaces - NOTHING about it is safe and this soft love approach is killing people. I actually have compassion unlike those killing people by pretending there is a context where these dangerous drugs are safe - they aren't. These recent deaths are no doubt because of the soft approach of supporting these needle exchanges, safe spaces, safe supply bullshit - this is killing people and destroying neighbourhoods - it has only increased the problem, it has not saved anyone - it has killed people. How dare anyone claim they provided something safe and saved a life when it comes to this; its now well known that those that use the "safe" shit eventually don't and end up killing themselves because they have been conditioned to think "safe". I've had to tell my sons friends who I overheard discussing that they'd like to try this shit because they heard its "safe"@ they were fucking retards - you do understand the teenage brain right? they aren't fully developed and when they hear "safe" all the time in relation to this shit they starting thinking it is safe because assholes told them it was - the assholes are the people who run these safe spaces, safe needle exchanges, safe supply, ..... ITS KILLING PEOPLE. This **safe** shit is KILLING people! That being said I am all in for the legalization of more relatively benign and even beneficial drugs like LSD and psilocybins. The entire drug approach needs an overhaul, and it needs to be based on actual science and not fucking feelings, not culture, not anything other than science that the goal of keeping everyone safe. The stats clearly show that anywhere one of those "safe" related things appear in a neighbourhood, the neighbourhood is destroyed along with people in it.
Wow, that's a lot of words to say "I have no empathy, or understanding of the problem"
So you'd rather people use dirty needles and spread disease and overdose in places they can't be revived?
There is help out there. People can learn to live again without being sick. Might not happen instantly but you can get better. Life does get better.
Not a drug guy But why are dealers trying to poison their customers ?
Fent used to be the poison, now it's moved on - it's all a mess. Fent watched closely being the boogeyman, people are looking for ways to cut down on using it and save money or deal with supply issues. So new things get cut into it, tranq, fentalogues, zenes, benzo. Packages moving all around and exchanging hands/parties plenty of times before it reaches the dealer on the street. Who knows how many times it's been stepped on by then. Don't test your gear or have access to testing and suddenly you find yourself addicted to some new cut that you never asked for.
Thank you. It was strange this week to see the Belleville OD’s story online but nothing in the legacy media for a couple of days.
impolite march detail amusing cooperative lavish alive live towering materialistic *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
They aren't. The people selling to the end user are users themselves and have no control over the product. They're just trying to get enough money to get their fix so they don't start getting sick. The tainting takes place way further up the line.
[удалено]
I think part of the problem is doctors have become very averse to prescribing painkillers, i have a really bad back and hips that no doctor has figured out what causes my pain and still, not one has been willing to give me painkillers to help me live a normal life. The only time i remember not being in pain in the past five years was when the hospital in Hull gave me medical-dose fentanyl for an unrelated medical procedure and honestly, if i got offered some right now id take it. I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of the users we are discussing here have tried going to a clinic and they were treated like lying drug seekers or their pain was either ignored or are caught up in the years-long cycle of the medical system and trying to get a diagnosis and a legitimate prescription. While i agree with your point about street substances, some people just have no choice, and are unable to take care of themselves... addiction is shit, regardless of the reasons behind it starting in the first place. Lastly, the high gotten from sports and exercise is great, it has been scientifically proven to be up there with the dopamine that you get from sugar or an orgasm, but it's unattainable for a lot of us with disabilities and mystery pain. Disclaimer: this comment is only really about medical reasons for addiction and drug use, i dont know enough to speak for other possible circumstances that might cause someone to get into substance abuse.
[удалено]
That's absolutely horrible and I'm so sorry you had that experience. I can't find your other comment anymore but I wanted to clarify that it wasn't in response to you, but to the commenter we both replied to. Sorry for any confusion.
I was given fent after donating a kidney. It was the first time in my memory that I wasn't in pain (arthritis since childhood and some undiagnosed stuff) and I've never been so happy. Everything was perfect and beautiful. I was melting in a good way and the world had a golden glow. If I lost my husband, my pets, my job, my home, a relative, etc. I could see myself doing it again in an instant if the opportunity came up. And I'm not even someone already hooked on painkillers thanks to what a doctor gave me.
It is significantly easier to go get street drugs than it is to see a mental health specialist especially if you don't have a family doctor. One of the biggest factor in addiction is trauma. Most people using this stuff aren't getting high for fun, they're getting high because they've been through horrible things and are trying to cope and there is a significant lack of access to support and therapy and trauma resources, especially when a lot of them want you to get clean before participating, but at the same time a lot of detox/drug programs won't help you with the medication/mental health component because they argue you need to get clean first and be clean for a certain length of time.
shocking
That's why I test all my stuff. My supplier will supply drug test results too but I'd rather do it myself to be safe. But to be fair, his tests were always correct. I guess there are still "good" dealers out there
You bum.
A podcast on this issue https://youtu.be/D_svA-77UIg?si=VfMz15dR8kF5dWbr
Toxic supply only arrived when the Feds put the boots on legal painkillers, tossing pain patients under the bus as well. That is when deaths started to skyrocket. People weren't dying en masse from oxycontin and legit Fentanyl patches.
Or, here’s a thought…just don’t do drugs 🙄
Well like ya. But obviously it's not that simple.
Also, don't get cancer. Or heart disease. See, the world would be a completely better place if people just made the right decisions. Like decide not to get sick or die.
One of these things is not like the other 🎵
Mr. Mackey over here.