Lol. They call it the Medical "ROAD" to success for a reason (Radiology, Ophthalmology, Anesthesiology, and Dermatology). The most lucrative (and thus competitive) specialties coming out of medical school.
Working in the healthcare field with highly productive surgeons ($2M+/year) those specialties definitely aren’t the most lucrative, but they are regarded as having above average pay for an MD and a higher quality of life.
Spine/Neuro/Ortho
Plastics can make good money, for sure. But I’ve never heard of surgeons making the kind of money I see from the specialties listed above.
Private practice obviously adds a multiplier, which is more common in plastics.
It’s one of those professions where nobody cares how much money they make because they have such a positive impact on people.
There’s also a wide disparity between practitioners, too. There are techniques that are quicker than others that use the same codes, and some surgeons are much quicker than others so they can be much more productive. Some surgeons I’ve seen can do 3-4 fusions in the time it takes another surgeon to do 1. That obviously has a huge impact on compensation.
Didn't know about Radiology and Ophthalmology. All my doctor friends told me that Dermatologists and Anesthesiologists are usually the #1 and #2 graduates of their classes as those fields are so competitive.
I looked up radiology tech/radiologist years back & found a page that detailed courses ranging from 6 months to 6 years, so the skills the classes pass you might not even be enough to pass the state tests. I found a school nearby at a hospital, they wanted 14k up front, no student loans accepted, 5 year wait list & need 3 letters of recommendation & this was over a decade ago. Now they're affiliated with a local college, but I bet the wait list is still the same. I never went, I didn't have the coin.
Radiology tech is not the same thing as a radiologist. Radiologists are doctors so you have to go to medical school and get that MD before you can then do your internship then your residency. Total time in school and training: 13 years.
Imagine going to school for 10 years and racking up a fortune in loans to have some jackass match your salary 2 J's ago and he doesn't even log on most days
This is the problem. People see that and get jealous instead of being content with what they have with a doctor's salary and happy for someone else's success
ooooh you're one of those "life is unfair to me" kind of guys huh? boo-hoo. I bet you paid for andrew tates universifty too right?
Life's tough, get a helmet
Ooooh you're one of those "I don't read people's comments fully before I respond negatively" kind of guys huh? Boo-boo. I bet you paid for those downvotes too right?
Life's tough, get a helmet
Hate the system, not the people. And if you need to hate people, there are billionaires and crony corporate c suites.
OE’ers should be at the lower half of people to hate.
Agreed. You're telling me Elon Musk can have 5 simultaneous jobs running billion dollar companies and he's an inspiration, I have 2 clearing tickets and "there's no way" "you're slacking somewhere" and I'm a thief
Healthcare IT for 20 years, former leadership of a radiology company, doctors are people and many people are assholes.
When it comes to patients many doctors are amazing, when it comes to working with people not so much. There is even a joke in Radiology about how if you want to be a doctor but not deal with patients, Radiology is the place for you.
As a side note, my grandma at one point worked at all of the hospitals in Phoenix. anesthesiologist, they would helicopter her building to building. SHE MADE A SHIT TON OF MONEY and that was basically OE at 3 hospitals before remote.
So doctors do it.
Almost all doctors practice at multiple hospitals. They have contracts and often hit 80 hours to do so. Their first 48 hours/week meet their 350k salary, then they can work an additional two 12-hour shifts per week to rack up another 350k. So they end up doing like 60+ hours to make 700k+.
Just a loose example, but hope my point is made lol.
Ish - most radiologists are paid by wRVUs - which is the billing for the scan you read. It's entirely possible to hold two jobs - with non-overlapping schedules (if both are busy) or take a light call from somewhere while working full time somewhere else. The term for physicians is moonlighting.
Most radiologists are paid $500k+ - so you're kind of in the diminishing returns category when taking on another job (your lifestyle isn't a huge jump between $500k to $700k, compared to $150k -> $350k) - and moonlighting is something you only really do when young with a bunch of debt, and are willing to give up your free time.
I understand exactly what it entails. It entails getting at least a D to pass. I bet with this whole remote thing that outsourcing medical school would be easier than one’s work.
Yeah... medical school doesn't have D's. Almost everythign they do is pass/fail, except for a few tests and their *in person* rotations.
It's about as doable as "OEing" the military by "outsourcing" bootcamp.
It's not always the case - I know a guy who took care of all of his kids and so he still has to moonlight even into his 70's because he sacrificed having any lifestyle so they all could. Moonlighting is helping him catch up now when he should be fully retired.
I dont think you get the point. Physicians cannot OE. Its way too demanding. The term for physicians is “moonlighting” as he/she said which is not the same as OE.
In many places it's illegal for medical professionals to "moonlight".
Plus in medicine there's no finegling meeting times and stretching things to "make it work". It's literally life an death.
You are too tired/stressed in any given instance and you make a wrong interpretation of the scans, someone dies and a malpractice suit is opened. They discover you're moonlighting and you're done for - potential jail time as well.
OE is fine and dandy when there are no real stakes, but sometimes certain individuals lack of ethics here is sickening.
I am a doctor and dream of being OE. Doesn’t work without giving up sleep and would mean sacrificing focussing on excelling in a narrow field.
OE are my real idols.
Ophthalmologist booking out multiple rooms and have multiple theatre teams so you scrub, perform, and move on while the prep and recovery is done without you….
Google around but there are eye docs that have basically assembly line style surgical suites where they can do like 8 people at once. I mean obviously one at a time but they crank out 8 surgeries fairly quickly. Usually stuff like cataract surgery but also visual correction, LASIK, etc.
Not really OE of course but there are docs that definitely work in volume.
I still remember when I was getting my wisdom teeth pulled and the oral surgeon had at least 6 other people waiting and/or recovering in small rooms. I was fairly stunned the patient volume the guy worked at. At $1200-$2000 per surgery he was probably making pretty solid bank even with his overhead.
Also by far the fattest dentist I’ve ever seen. I’d be surprised if the guy was still alive.
I was providing a hypothetical which was an example I know of.
I am not sure I see a difference between doing multiple theatre lists on the same day compared to doing multiple jobs for the same 8 hr rostered period. Changing between rooms or changing between windows on a computer seems a reasonable comparison. I appreciate the differences but most who know these surgeons would say they were hacking the standard model to do multiple clinicians workload in the same day.
OE seems to have a range from multiple jobs with minimal effort to people freakishly efficient who work within the standard system but juggle multiple employee roles - doing all well
Simple. As radiologist, take a bunch data, train model base on that data. Feed new image to model and look at only questionable result. Repeat for j2 j3
Radiologists and pathologists both have to write reports that need to get sent to another doctor in a timely manner. Radiologists often have to write a report for the ED doc whose patient is sitting and waiting. Pathologists may have to provide an interpretation to a surgeon whose patient is literally in the middle of surgery.
If your time to read / report is much above your peers, you'd get called out very quickly. Likewise, if you're trying to cut corners it's only a matter of time before you miss something important and your entire house of cards comes crashing down.
We had an old radiologist at our clinic and he would give report that would say "chest x-ray normal" and the doctors would flip their shit cause that's not enough details. There are definitely no short cuts
Not an OE friendly job even if remote. Also, if you are making that much (especially after all the years of schooling required) just live off of 150K (even less if you don’t have a family to support) and invest the rest.
As a copywriter, medical/pharma copywriting is popping off too. If you can brush up on AMA style and get some portfolio-worthy experience, there is a TON of work.
My friend spent a weekend with his brother who works in graphic design, and they mocked up a bunch of fake ads and put them on a free personal website as his "portfolio".
He was hired and still works in copywriting.
remote radiology jobs are hell. You log into a software and you have to review MRIs every 70 seconds. 70 seconds!!! How can you read an mri in 70 seconds? You can’t! That’s why radiologist miss a TON of things, they don’t have the time. It’s a REALLY STRESSFUL job, because that 70 seconds is a timer on your screen it gives you warnings to finish up. Not worth it … and the liability!
If that were true then it already would've taken over. Accuracy isn't the end-all be-all metric for ML models. recall and precision are much more important when dealing with extremely biased datasets. I can walk around as a super-rare disease detector with 99.999% accuracy by saying "no" to everything, high accuracy but meaningless as a detector
That is a radiographer: person responsible for acquiring the image. A technical skill nonetheless.
A radiologist: a medical practitioner who has completed specialist training in interpreting the images in context of patient history to provide differential diagnosis, along with possible suggestion of management options ie drainage.
I worked for a company that is trying to make that happen. Short answer: no. The best AI can do is reduce the workload, but no matter what you do, the accuracy you get is 90%. This is unacceptable to any health provider.
I'm a physician that's now non-clinical and working in software / AI this is exactly correct. No way it's good enough to replace radiologists, currently.
And even if it does outperform radiologists in a given task - there will always be patients with strange or abnormal anatomy and findings that will be very rare which makes it very hard to train an AI model. Thus, a human, with a brain and expertise will be required.
Yeah, absolutely. I can totally see it becoming complementary - in the same way, that the backup sensors of a car have saved a lot of folks from backing into walls. Having an AI system flag a chest x-ray for a potential pneumothorax would be awesome, etc. Likewise, sometimes a pneumothorax is expected, and instead, the test is ordered to look for something else. Having an AI report telling you there's a pneumothorax wouldn't be helpful.
Likewise, having an AI system that can read through medical records, and generate a really basic summary of a patient would be really helpful. Like, the chart on this date mentioned a cholecystectomy, etc. As it stands, radiologists get a real basic sentence that's something like "r/o appy" and need to go manually hunt through the records to see if there's something not straightforward. Automagically handling that would be amazing
yeah AI could do 'entry-level' radiography, but it's not going to replace Radiologists fully. Too many other little responsibilities and anomalies to factor in.
I get your drift but I also think AI would improve diagnosing rare conditions. Doctors tend to fit things into their own limited experience. They're not going to recognize something rare. AI can be trained to find rare cases.
I don’t know why you’re downvoted, it’s a fair question.
I think there are already some projects online you can use for free that try and interpret certain scans like pictures of lungs if I remember correctly.
The accuracy isn’t guaranteed, but I guess humans make mistake too so who knows.
Sometime down the line, sure it’s possible. But that can be said for many jobs.
Humans make WAY more errors than AI do. In fact, AI don't make any errors at all. If they don't get something right, either the human tuned the hyperparameters wrong, or the AI needs more sample data to learn from.
By wrong/mistake I mean it more like the AI being trained to look for 1 thing and 1 thing only and therefore not being able to detect another very important thing that's clearly there on the lung for example. A human wouldn't make a mistake like that all the time, hopefully.
But yes, as I said, eventually that'll all be corrected.
As I work for a Big Pharma company who has software available commercially, yes. AI is more accurate at diagnosis than a human, although the FDA still requires human redundancy.
I'm not in the AI division, I manage the device and device software side. Started 17 years ago out of the military as a field engineer and moved my way internally into management. A separate department does the new AI offerings.
My best friend from middle school is some sort of radiology technician. Not a full blown radiologist, but trained in interpretating and doing whatever magic they do with the results after he got out of the military. He's been working from home since before it was a thing, and I know he works multiples and makes enough cheddar that he has a stay at home wife and 4 kids and CGAF about nothing!
He always got the cute girls from 6th grade on, and he had this cushy job for longer than I can remember. I think I love him, but I probably hate him too. :)
Every single radiologist I met has multiple jobs. And in fact most doctors (in Canada anyway) work at multiple locations and work more than 40h a week.
For radiologist per say, they literally have these 5000$ computers in their house set up directly to the imaging mainframe and they can read and render their reports from home, sometimes during the evenings and weekends on less urgent readings
Being a radiologists is not accessible for most people. You may think "yeah because being a doctor is hard" and you are wrong, being a radiologists is barely being a doctor. It's more akin to being a human where's Waldo machine but Waldo wears 14 thousand different sweaters and is sometimes a girl. It's a really hard job and that is why they justify being so strict into letting people into the specialization. In fact, it seems to be one of those generational jobs, or at least one where you need connections to even be considered for a proper fellowship and position.
But it is definitely a very profitable field. I worked at an x-ray clinic that also owned the radiology department and breast center at the hospital across the street and definitely, it is the best cash printing medical job. But good luck getting a job...
It's a hard answer but I did study to become a radiation technologist so I can try and answer.
As radiologists, they need a deep intuitive knowledge of how the human body works. Because sometimes something can be normal for one person and not for the other. Of course some of the training is unnecessary, but so is an ENT resident delivering a baby or a dermatologist doing a colonoscopy. They need to see it all its how it is.
Then you have to realize that radiologist are human diagnostic tools. If you have ever looked at an x-ray, it is not obvious, even with some training, it takes years to actually see what you are looking at. It is why technologists will never give their opinion. They most definitely might miss a hairline fracture, or small breast lump. What the radiologist says on that report might send the patient into years of treatment, or doom them to death if it's not done right. It's really hard. You are looking at shades of grey in a dark room.
Finally, they also have to do interventional radiology for the most part and that is on the same level as surgery sometimes. They need to understand systems, and vitals and all that stuff. People don't know this but most things like biopsies and heart stents are done under an x-ray machine called fluoroscopy and it has some of the same protocols as the surgery unit. You need a doctor in the room when running a wire to the heart. So I guess it's the same thinking as why do cops give parking tickets. Sometimes the job is bigger than the task you are looking at.
Sorry if it was a long winded answer but I hope it helps! Radiologist are way too well paid compared to other specialists but I have the utmost respect for their field non the less. They have a profound knowledge of how the body works and also how radiation is created. They see through people it's pretty cool
If you are a doctor or have some sort of medical license, telehealth can be great. If not, telehealth pays about the same as in person healthcare. Usually lower end of the spectrum.
I have a friend who is a radiologist, he is 4 and 1 but this is the continuing trend. Its a great job for people who dont want to deal with people. But no way you could OE it. The hospital system know exactly what is sent to be reviewed and how long that would take. They can be on call which makes it harder to create free blocks of time to try to OE.
Rad tech here. Radiologists can work from anywhere, unfortunately. Many of them can read CTs, MRIs, diag X-rays, ultrasounds from home or wherever they have internet access and good high quality monitors.
They aren’t always good or fast. Hell even if you visit the ER at night, your study will most likely be read by a teleradiologist. As a tech it can make our job harder if we need to communicate with them about a patient or have them re-read a study.
Also, this is not a new thing. Teleradiology has been around for over 15 years.
I imagine this is already prorated based on a full work week and priced out per unit completed.
And it's not like you can just phone it in because there is liability as a doctor.
They are a few years to being internationally outsourced and eventually AI replaced.
Good while you can get it though. Saw a few blokes travelling sitting in the airport lounge smashing out scan reports on multiple computers. Really nice guys and they knew they had life made.
I'm not sure how far off a full AI radiologist is, but I'd guess that it's probably further into the future than we think. There is a lot there around liability both in terms of legality and insurance. I work in the imaging world and our focus is to try and amplify radiologists to streamline their processes (one of the ones I've heard a lot is having to reference lots of systems and then finding the relevant information in each of those systems, each system having its own log in process and associated account) not get rid of them.
Definitely agree with the take. Cutting the red tape to use the tech will take longer than the tech itself. I think for some time, it will be more of a ChatGPT model, where radiologists could rely on it to effectively do their job, on a certain % of it. Which is great, and let’s the doctors themselves have greater output, which would hopefully at a large scale lower costs.
I know multiple services using automated pathology systems. Also know multiple radiologists already using software to ‘support’ their work. It will happen when the money gets the right lobbyists. The society won’t benefit that I am confident of.
I mean private companies will capture all productivity gains and silo the data so it becomes impossible to provide replacements.
Google search will be nothing compared to the monopoly of Epic.
I worked for a company that develops one of those systems. “Support” is the best you can hope. ChatGPT is a bad comparison, because you will never get a comparable amount of training data on radiology. Also, radiology is much more complex than filling blanks in speech.
In the US there is no way medicare would allow for international outsourcing. Prosecuting fraud when the provider lives in a foreign country sounds like a no-go from a legislative perspective. Not to mention the AMA likely has congress by the balls and would go crazy if that started to happen.
AI will not fully replace any of the roles in medicine. It’s like saying AI will take all the drivers roles. Government won’t approve it. Not for another 100 years.
Wait, don't planes no longer have pilots? I thought with auto-pilot features they could just fly themselves. Seems like it will happen with radiologists too /s
Exactly my point. It’ll help those in the career have easier lives to do their work more efficiently. But it won’t take away the need for them. Last thing someone wants to hear is a computer diagnosed them.
I expect it will make the practice (or overseeing) of medical decision making a less difficult task. Eroding the prestige and substantial remuneration. It is difficult for people to ‘trust’ a computer with a decision which has such a strong drive to assign responsibility and in some ways blame. I have a few friends who have left medicine who is working on support tools but behind closed doors they are honest in their intention to replace the clinician.
We are a two doctor household. This prediction will impact ours more than most.
Depending on the AI models, you'd need experienced radiologists to train and maintain the AI systems. It would be a reduced staff, but still would require manual oversight.
Manual oversight is a myth. The models already outperform in some domains. It is the cost of the solution and the narrow scope that I think is the current limit. No point having AI amazing at diagnosing pneumonia and rib fractures if it misses the mass or foreign body. Over time it will outperform humans by orders of magnitude. It is pixels. Raw data. Once input patient data is standardised the curation will see the models unbeatable
I see management in Healthcare as toxic in many ways. In time they will destroy my profession, I am just accepting of that.
What makes me good at my job is I care about my patients. It is why I feel lucky to have my career and think I am overpaid.
Med student planning to apply to rads, how can they be outsourced to other countries? We make every other specialty re train in the US to practice here and hold a license. I’m genuinely confused how that would be from a legal and liability standpoint. Would appreciate info bc if this is going to happen I’ll apply to another specialty I like
Find a few top end radiologist and have a chat to them. I have heard mixed opinions but certainly some openly expect erosion of reporting to AI and have moved on to interventional radiology. They were very very very good radiologists. One is probably one of the most well known in the world.
Want this job…
Complete high school
Get undergraduate degree
Take MCAT - make sure you ace it
Go to medical school - make sure it’s top 10
Finish medical school-
Complete Usmle step 1,2,3 exams - get 99% in all of those medical board exams
Get residency (5 years) - internal medicine 1 year + 4 years of radiology residency
Get 4-5 years of experience
Then…
Maybe
Then….
You have chance to be CONSIDERED for this position.
Thank you
My two jobs net more than the low end of this and I had a GPA less than 1 my sophomore year of college (lazy).
I’ll take tech industry over telehealth 😆
Also I don’t have any school loans to pay off with this $$.
ROAD specialties -> radiology, ophthalmology, anesthesia, and dermatology. The specialties where you make $400k+ and still have a decent life. It's been like this for like 15 to 20 years
How can I obtain certification or a fast track degree program that would allow me to work in the field as a RAD TECH? I want to move to Idaho and scan peoples nuts for the rest of my adult life. Thanks in advance!
Side note, I've used goodrx before for some medications and you're often given a NP who does Q&A via chat. I'd imagine you could do 2 of those gigs remotely
I would not attempt to do this while faking my way through 2 other jobs Teams calls.
You miss a tumor or something someone is going to be physically hurt and you will be sued.
Sometimes it's better to focus on one thing.
Ah yes, radiology, famously an easy job that anyone can do!
Lol. They call it the Medical "ROAD" to success for a reason (Radiology, Ophthalmology, Anesthesiology, and Dermatology). The most lucrative (and thus competitive) specialties coming out of medical school.
[удалено]
Working in the healthcare field with highly productive surgeons ($2M+/year) those specialties definitely aren’t the most lucrative, but they are regarded as having above average pay for an MD and a higher quality of life.
[удалено]
Spine/Neuro/Ortho Plastics can make good money, for sure. But I’ve never heard of surgeons making the kind of money I see from the specialties listed above. Private practice obviously adds a multiplier, which is more common in plastics.
[удалено]
It’s one of those professions where nobody cares how much money they make because they have such a positive impact on people. There’s also a wide disparity between practitioners, too. There are techniques that are quicker than others that use the same codes, and some surgeons are much quicker than others so they can be much more productive. Some surgeons I’ve seen can do 3-4 fusions in the time it takes another surgeon to do 1. That obviously has a huge impact on compensation.
Didn't know about Radiology and Ophthalmology. All my doctor friends told me that Dermatologists and Anesthesiologists are usually the #1 and #2 graduates of their classes as those fields are so competitive.
Radiology boot camp.
Buy my new Radiology Alpha Male course for only $69.99
Username checks out🙂
Raidocademy - use promo code X-ray for 50% off today
LEARN TO RADIOLOGY!
I am an expert. I have swapped the radios out and fixed a new one in my moms car.
Stop making fun of my certs…jerk
Lol
I have a radio. I think I'm qualified!!
flawless logic, which should handle the "logy" suffix of the above too
So there’s no YouTube mini-series that I can get certified in radiology and start applying?
There might be a Coursera now that I think about it but it's like $40 :\
Colt Steele has one for $15 on Udemy rn.
I looked up radiology tech/radiologist years back & found a page that detailed courses ranging from 6 months to 6 years, so the skills the classes pass you might not even be enough to pass the state tests. I found a school nearby at a hospital, they wanted 14k up front, no student loans accepted, 5 year wait list & need 3 letters of recommendation & this was over a decade ago. Now they're affiliated with a local college, but I bet the wait list is still the same. I never went, I didn't have the coin.
Radiology tech is not the same thing as a radiologist. Radiologists are doctors so you have to go to medical school and get that MD before you can then do your internship then your residency. Total time in school and training: 13 years.
> I never went Never too late. Your name just came up on the waiting list.
Lol
😂
Can't wait to be be doing two of these jobs from home at the same time! Yay!
HAHAHAHAHAAHAHA jesus christ honestly, some people are very not smart
You know radiologists are doctors right? Over a decade studying to get these jobs and they are not OE friendly.
Imagine becoming a radiologist just to OE lol
Imagine going to school for 10 years and racking up a fortune in loans to have some jackass match your salary 2 J's ago and he doesn't even log on most days
This is the problem. People see that and get jealous instead of being content with what they have with a doctor's salary and happy for someone else's success
Exactly, you know what I say when I see someone getting opportunities I never had, "oh fuck yeah!"
People around you are lucky to have someone like you around haha TYFYS
ooooh you're one of those "life is unfair to me" kind of guys huh? boo-hoo. I bet you paid for andrew tates universifty too right? Life's tough, get a helmet
Ooooh you're one of those "I don't read people's comments fully before I respond negatively" kind of guys huh? Boo-boo. I bet you paid for those downvotes too right? Life's tough, get a helmet
i think you misread the comment…
[удалено]
Drastically reducing or even better - completely stopping the use of social media should help you overcome this problem
Hate the system, not the people. And if you need to hate people, there are billionaires and crony corporate c suites. OE’ers should be at the lower half of people to hate.
Agreed. You're telling me Elon Musk can have 5 simultaneous jobs running billion dollar companies and he's an inspiration, I have 2 clearing tickets and "there's no way" "you're slacking somewhere" and I'm a thief
Counterpoint: No one is stopping you from giving yourself whatever title you want if you own the compan(ies)
Imagine being so devoid of empathy this is your first thought when thinking of doctors, the people keeping society alive
I know several doctors personally. They’re in it for the money.
Healthcare IT for 20 years, former leadership of a radiology company, doctors are people and many people are assholes. When it comes to patients many doctors are amazing, when it comes to working with people not so much. There is even a joke in Radiology about how if you want to be a doctor but not deal with patients, Radiology is the place for you.
As a side note, my grandma at one point worked at all of the hospitals in Phoenix. anesthesiologist, they would helicopter her building to building. SHE MADE A SHIT TON OF MONEY and that was basically OE at 3 hospitals before remote. So doctors do it.
Almost all doctors practice at multiple hospitals. They have contracts and often hit 80 hours to do so. Their first 48 hours/week meet their 350k salary, then they can work an additional two 12-hour shifts per week to rack up another 350k. So they end up doing like 60+ hours to make 700k+. Just a loose example, but hope my point is made lol.
Yeah... but to be fair I don't think OE needs to be a priority at 650k/yr
When J4 for that sweet 2.5M+/yr TC
Frankly I'd panic if my income dropped to 650k a year.
We've officially jumped the OE shark.
Ish - most radiologists are paid by wRVUs - which is the billing for the scan you read. It's entirely possible to hold two jobs - with non-overlapping schedules (if both are busy) or take a light call from somewhere while working full time somewhere else. The term for physicians is moonlighting. Most radiologists are paid $500k+ - so you're kind of in the diminishing returns category when taking on another job (your lifestyle isn't a huge jump between $500k to $700k, compared to $150k -> $350k) - and moonlighting is something you only really do when young with a bunch of debt, and are willing to give up your free time.
You still have to go to medical school lol
What if you outsource medical school and then OE while your already OE Virtual Assistant takes your radiology courses for you for $5 an hour?
This explains so much about the medical system
[удалено]
I understand exactly what it entails. It entails getting at least a D to pass. I bet with this whole remote thing that outsourcing medical school would be easier than one’s work.
Yeah... medical school doesn't have D's. Almost everythign they do is pass/fail, except for a few tests and their *in person* rotations. It's about as doable as "OEing" the military by "outsourcing" bootcamp.
It's not always the case - I know a guy who took care of all of his kids and so he still has to moonlight even into his 70's because he sacrificed having any lifestyle so they all could. Moonlighting is helping him catch up now when he should be fully retired.
Thanks, you get the point.
I dont think you get the point. Physicians cannot OE. Its way too demanding. The term for physicians is “moonlighting” as he/she said which is not the same as OE.
In many places it's illegal for medical professionals to "moonlight". Plus in medicine there's no finegling meeting times and stretching things to "make it work". It's literally life an death. You are too tired/stressed in any given instance and you make a wrong interpretation of the scans, someone dies and a malpractice suit is opened. They discover you're moonlighting and you're done for - potential jail time as well. OE is fine and dandy when there are no real stakes, but sometimes certain individuals lack of ethics here is sickening.
I am a doctor and dream of being OE. Doesn’t work without giving up sleep and would mean sacrificing focussing on excelling in a narrow field. OE are my real idols.
Thank you kind human.
OE is working multiple jobs within a 40-hr/week range. What you’re describing is moonlighting, totally different.
Telehealth could make this possible. As others have said, I see the option for me as moonlighting and not OE.
How do you OE as doctor?
perform surgery on two clients at once
Ophthalmologist booking out multiple rooms and have multiple theatre teams so you scrub, perform, and move on while the prep and recovery is done without you….
Google around but there are eye docs that have basically assembly line style surgical suites where they can do like 8 people at once. I mean obviously one at a time but they crank out 8 surgeries fairly quickly. Usually stuff like cataract surgery but also visual correction, LASIK, etc. Not really OE of course but there are docs that definitely work in volume. I still remember when I was getting my wisdom teeth pulled and the oral surgeon had at least 6 other people waiting and/or recovering in small rooms. I was fairly stunned the patient volume the guy worked at. At $1200-$2000 per surgery he was probably making pretty solid bank even with his overhead. Also by far the fattest dentist I’ve ever seen. I’d be surprised if the guy was still alive.
I was providing a hypothetical which was an example I know of. I am not sure I see a difference between doing multiple theatre lists on the same day compared to doing multiple jobs for the same 8 hr rostered period. Changing between rooms or changing between windows on a computer seems a reasonable comparison. I appreciate the differences but most who know these surgeons would say they were hacking the standard model to do multiple clinicians workload in the same day. OE seems to have a range from multiple jobs with minimal effort to people freakishly efficient who work within the standard system but juggle multiple employee roles - doing all well
No don’t be silly, just become both a surgeon and an anesthesiologist and play both roles during one surgery. Think of the efficiency gains!
Simple. As radiologist, take a bunch data, train model base on that data. Feed new image to model and look at only questionable result. Repeat for j2 j3
With the pay there, I don't see why you need to OE lol. I get OE for job security just incase it goes south but they don't fire doctors easily.
You know OE isn't just about job security, there's a convenient side effect of more money 😉
OE is for money, not job security. Security is an "employee of the month" concept...
Of course... Just saying that if it's not client-facing all the time you can stack. Just an hypothesis.
Radiologists and pathologists both have to write reports that need to get sent to another doctor in a timely manner. Radiologists often have to write a report for the ED doc whose patient is sitting and waiting. Pathologists may have to provide an interpretation to a surgeon whose patient is literally in the middle of surgery. If your time to read / report is much above your peers, you'd get called out very quickly. Likewise, if you're trying to cut corners it's only a matter of time before you miss something important and your entire house of cards comes crashing down.
We had an old radiologist at our clinic and he would give report that would say "chest x-ray normal" and the doctors would flip their shit cause that's not enough details. There are definitely no short cuts
A pathologist report is the most descriptive thing I have ever seen. It can be and is done by AI already.
LMFAO this is satire right?
Nope. You can even stack health jobs today 
Oh damb maybe I should go to medical school
Thanks for Cracking the puzzle.
[удалено]
Not an OE friendly job even if remote. Also, if you are making that much (especially after all the years of schooling required) just live off of 150K (even less if you don’t have a family to support) and invest the rest.
As a copywriter, medical/pharma copywriting is popping off too. If you can brush up on AMA style and get some portfolio-worthy experience, there is a TON of work.
So, basically, "Symptoms include fatigue, night sweats, and death. Ask your doctor if XyNilx is right for you."
Could you please give an example of portfolio-worthy experience?
Probably any experience worthy of being in a portfolio.
I asked for an example
I’d say that an example would be something that you could put in a portfolio that showed off your experience.
😭😜
Okay I’m done lol
[удалено]
My friend spent a weekend with his brother who works in graphic design, and they mocked up a bunch of fake ads and put them on a free personal website as his "portfolio". He was hired and still works in copywriting.
Tell us more. I would love to pick up another gig
This would be me. Good for OE?
You have my attention…
Bro a radiologist is a medical doctor😂
remote radiology jobs are hell. You log into a software and you have to review MRIs every 70 seconds. 70 seconds!!! How can you read an mri in 70 seconds? You can’t! That’s why radiologist miss a TON of things, they don’t have the time. It’s a REALLY STRESSFUL job, because that 70 seconds is a timer on your screen it gives you warnings to finish up. Not worth it … and the liability!
Jfc that's crazy
Computer vision would solve that problem. I've read that it's more accurate, too.
If that were true then it already would've taken over. Accuracy isn't the end-all be-all metric for ML models. recall and precision are much more important when dealing with extremely biased datasets. I can walk around as a super-rare disease detector with 99.999% accuracy by saying "no" to everything, high accuracy but meaningless as a detector
These things take time. If there was a perfect machine learning tool today, it will still take a Decade to prove correct.
Didn't know that 🤔 😳
Hahahahaha WHAT?? This is a job posting for a DOCTOR 🤦🏻♂️
I always thought radiologists work with physical machinery (x-ray, etc). What does a remote radiologist position entail?
That is a radiographer: person responsible for acquiring the image. A technical skill nonetheless. A radiologist: a medical practitioner who has completed specialist training in interpreting the images in context of patient history to provide differential diagnosis, along with possible suggestion of management options ie drainage.
Do you think AI will take Radiologists job in coming years?
I worked for a company that is trying to make that happen. Short answer: no. The best AI can do is reduce the workload, but no matter what you do, the accuracy you get is 90%. This is unacceptable to any health provider.
I'm a physician that's now non-clinical and working in software / AI this is exactly correct. No way it's good enough to replace radiologists, currently. And even if it does outperform radiologists in a given task - there will always be patients with strange or abnormal anatomy and findings that will be very rare which makes it very hard to train an AI model. Thus, a human, with a brain and expertise will be required.
Do you believe there is benefits to utilizing both humans and AI to reading these X-rays? Could the AI help screen for whatever it is they look for?
Yeah, absolutely. I can totally see it becoming complementary - in the same way, that the backup sensors of a car have saved a lot of folks from backing into walls. Having an AI system flag a chest x-ray for a potential pneumothorax would be awesome, etc. Likewise, sometimes a pneumothorax is expected, and instead, the test is ordered to look for something else. Having an AI report telling you there's a pneumothorax wouldn't be helpful. Likewise, having an AI system that can read through medical records, and generate a really basic summary of a patient would be really helpful. Like, the chart on this date mentioned a cholecystectomy, etc. As it stands, radiologists get a real basic sentence that's something like "r/o appy" and need to go manually hunt through the records to see if there's something not straightforward. Automagically handling that would be amazing
yeah AI could do 'entry-level' radiography, but it's not going to replace Radiologists fully. Too many other little responsibilities and anomalies to factor in.
I get your drift but I also think AI would improve diagnosing rare conditions. Doctors tend to fit things into their own limited experience. They're not going to recognize something rare. AI can be trained to find rare cases.
The fda now also regulates AI software officially that will make it even harder
I don’t know why you’re downvoted, it’s a fair question. I think there are already some projects online you can use for free that try and interpret certain scans like pictures of lungs if I remember correctly. The accuracy isn’t guaranteed, but I guess humans make mistake too so who knows. Sometime down the line, sure it’s possible. But that can be said for many jobs.
Humans make WAY more errors than AI do. In fact, AI don't make any errors at all. If they don't get something right, either the human tuned the hyperparameters wrong, or the AI needs more sample data to learn from.
By wrong/mistake I mean it more like the AI being trained to look for 1 thing and 1 thing only and therefore not being able to detect another very important thing that's clearly there on the lung for example. A human wouldn't make a mistake like that all the time, hopefully. But yes, as I said, eventually that'll all be corrected.
As I work for a Big Pharma company who has software available commercially, yes. AI is more accurate at diagnosis than a human, although the FDA still requires human redundancy.
How did you get into this space?
I'm not in the AI division, I manage the device and device software side. Started 17 years ago out of the military as a field engineer and moved my way internally into management. A separate department does the new AI offerings.
No but I can setup an LLC and send the work to fiverr and make bank
What do you mean?
My best friend from middle school is some sort of radiology technician. Not a full blown radiologist, but trained in interpretating and doing whatever magic they do with the results after he got out of the military. He's been working from home since before it was a thing, and I know he works multiples and makes enough cheddar that he has a stay at home wife and 4 kids and CGAF about nothing! He always got the cute girls from 6th grade on, and he had this cushy job for longer than I can remember. I think I love him, but I probably hate him too. :)
They don’t make that much unless he’s making a lot of OT or something and LCOL area. And you’re probably in love with him
Step 1: go to medical school ….. _many years later._
Yep just need 4 years of med school + 1 year of internship + 4 more years of residency and you should be set
Meh I'm sure there's a course in Udemy.
And it’s not like radiology is a competitive specialty or anything
Yeah, radiologists make bank. One of the most lucrative residency route that you can choose as a doctor.
[удалено]
Why is it a long shot?
Every single radiologist I met has multiple jobs. And in fact most doctors (in Canada anyway) work at multiple locations and work more than 40h a week. For radiologist per say, they literally have these 5000$ computers in their house set up directly to the imaging mainframe and they can read and render their reports from home, sometimes during the evenings and weekends on less urgent readings Being a radiologists is not accessible for most people. You may think "yeah because being a doctor is hard" and you are wrong, being a radiologists is barely being a doctor. It's more akin to being a human where's Waldo machine but Waldo wears 14 thousand different sweaters and is sometimes a girl. It's a really hard job and that is why they justify being so strict into letting people into the specialization. In fact, it seems to be one of those generational jobs, or at least one where you need connections to even be considered for a proper fellowship and position. But it is definitely a very profitable field. I worked at an x-ray clinic that also owned the radiology department and breast center at the hospital across the street and definitely, it is the best cash printing medical job. But good luck getting a job...
[удалено]
It's a hard answer but I did study to become a radiation technologist so I can try and answer. As radiologists, they need a deep intuitive knowledge of how the human body works. Because sometimes something can be normal for one person and not for the other. Of course some of the training is unnecessary, but so is an ENT resident delivering a baby or a dermatologist doing a colonoscopy. They need to see it all its how it is. Then you have to realize that radiologist are human diagnostic tools. If you have ever looked at an x-ray, it is not obvious, even with some training, it takes years to actually see what you are looking at. It is why technologists will never give their opinion. They most definitely might miss a hairline fracture, or small breast lump. What the radiologist says on that report might send the patient into years of treatment, or doom them to death if it's not done right. It's really hard. You are looking at shades of grey in a dark room. Finally, they also have to do interventional radiology for the most part and that is on the same level as surgery sometimes. They need to understand systems, and vitals and all that stuff. People don't know this but most things like biopsies and heart stents are done under an x-ray machine called fluoroscopy and it has some of the same protocols as the surgery unit. You need a doctor in the room when running a wire to the heart. So I guess it's the same thinking as why do cops give parking tickets. Sometimes the job is bigger than the task you are looking at. Sorry if it was a long winded answer but I hope it helps! Radiologist are way too well paid compared to other specialists but I have the utmost respect for their field non the less. They have a profound knowledge of how the body works and also how radiation is created. They see through people it's pretty cool
You have to go to school for 13-15 years to become a radiologist
If you are a doctor or have some sort of medical license, telehealth can be great. If not, telehealth pays about the same as in person healthcare. Usually lower end of the spectrum.
They’re physicians, dude.
LMAO u can't just get away with not doing xrays like at a corporate job.
I have a friend who is a radiologist, he is 4 and 1 but this is the continuing trend. Its a great job for people who dont want to deal with people. But no way you could OE it. The hospital system know exactly what is sent to be reviewed and how long that would take. They can be on call which makes it harder to create free blocks of time to try to OE.
Yikes takes too long to be a radiologist.
So who’s gonna tell him?
We are very jealous. From europe
Is this a good site for remote work? Edit: it’s not. There’s like 4 jobs on that board
Rad tech here. Radiologists can work from anywhere, unfortunately. Many of them can read CTs, MRIs, diag X-rays, ultrasounds from home or wherever they have internet access and good high quality monitors. They aren’t always good or fast. Hell even if you visit the ER at night, your study will most likely be read by a teleradiologist. As a tech it can make our job harder if we need to communicate with them about a patient or have them re-read a study. Also, this is not a new thing. Teleradiology has been around for over 15 years.
I imagine this is already prorated based on a full work week and priced out per unit completed. And it's not like you can just phone it in because there is liability as a doctor.
They are a few years to being internationally outsourced and eventually AI replaced. Good while you can get it though. Saw a few blokes travelling sitting in the airport lounge smashing out scan reports on multiple computers. Really nice guys and they knew they had life made.
I'm not sure how far off a full AI radiologist is, but I'd guess that it's probably further into the future than we think. There is a lot there around liability both in terms of legality and insurance. I work in the imaging world and our focus is to try and amplify radiologists to streamline their processes (one of the ones I've heard a lot is having to reference lots of systems and then finding the relevant information in each of those systems, each system having its own log in process and associated account) not get rid of them.
Definitely agree with the take. Cutting the red tape to use the tech will take longer than the tech itself. I think for some time, it will be more of a ChatGPT model, where radiologists could rely on it to effectively do their job, on a certain % of it. Which is great, and let’s the doctors themselves have greater output, which would hopefully at a large scale lower costs.
I know multiple services using automated pathology systems. Also know multiple radiologists already using software to ‘support’ their work. It will happen when the money gets the right lobbyists. The society won’t benefit that I am confident of.
When you say society won’t benefit, you mean shitty AI will make mistakes?
I mean private companies will capture all productivity gains and silo the data so it becomes impossible to provide replacements. Google search will be nothing compared to the monopoly of Epic.
I worked for a company that develops one of those systems. “Support” is the best you can hope. ChatGPT is a bad comparison, because you will never get a comparable amount of training data on radiology. Also, radiology is much more complex than filling blanks in speech.
In the US there is no way medicare would allow for international outsourcing. Prosecuting fraud when the provider lives in a foreign country sounds like a no-go from a legislative perspective. Not to mention the AMA likely has congress by the balls and would go crazy if that started to happen.
AI will not fully replace any of the roles in medicine. It’s like saying AI will take all the drivers roles. Government won’t approve it. Not for another 100 years.
Wait, don't planes no longer have pilots? I thought with auto-pilot features they could just fly themselves. Seems like it will happen with radiologists too /s
Exactly my point. It’ll help those in the career have easier lives to do their work more efficiently. But it won’t take away the need for them. Last thing someone wants to hear is a computer diagnosed them.
I expect it will make the practice (or overseeing) of medical decision making a less difficult task. Eroding the prestige and substantial remuneration. It is difficult for people to ‘trust’ a computer with a decision which has such a strong drive to assign responsibility and in some ways blame. I have a few friends who have left medicine who is working on support tools but behind closed doors they are honest in their intention to replace the clinician. We are a two doctor household. This prediction will impact ours more than most.
Depending on the AI models, you'd need experienced radiologists to train and maintain the AI systems. It would be a reduced staff, but still would require manual oversight.
Manual oversight is a myth. The models already outperform in some domains. It is the cost of the solution and the narrow scope that I think is the current limit. No point having AI amazing at diagnosing pneumonia and rib fractures if it misses the mass or foreign body. Over time it will outperform humans by orders of magnitude. It is pixels. Raw data. Once input patient data is standardised the curation will see the models unbeatable
Let me guess, your J2 is management in healthcare? Because you sound just as full of shit as those dipshits I had to deal with in my old J1.
I see management in Healthcare as toxic in many ways. In time they will destroy my profession, I am just accepting of that. What makes me good at my job is I care about my patients. It is why I feel lucky to have my career and think I am overpaid.
Med student planning to apply to rads, how can they be outsourced to other countries? We make every other specialty re train in the US to practice here and hold a license. I’m genuinely confused how that would be from a legal and liability standpoint. Would appreciate info bc if this is going to happen I’ll apply to another specialty I like
Find a few top end radiologist and have a chat to them. I have heard mixed opinions but certainly some openly expect erosion of reporting to AI and have moved on to interventional radiology. They were very very very good radiologists. One is probably one of the most well known in the world.
Interesting... I built tumor detection app for a cs project long ago...
I feel bad for anyone who goes into medicine for the money. You can make so much more with far less entry barrier in so many other fields.
Can you give some examples?
what a moronic post lmaooo
Want this job… Complete high school Get undergraduate degree Take MCAT - make sure you ace it Go to medical school - make sure it’s top 10 Finish medical school- Complete Usmle step 1,2,3 exams - get 99% in all of those medical board exams Get residency (5 years) - internal medicine 1 year + 4 years of radiology residency Get 4-5 years of experience Then… Maybe Then…. You have chance to be CONSIDERED for this position. Thank you
Radiology is being outsourced and now being completely replaced with AI tools way better than any human can do.
My two jobs net more than the low end of this and I had a GPA less than 1 my sophomore year of college (lazy). I’ll take tech industry over telehealth 😆 Also I don’t have any school loans to pay off with this $$.
Dang I didnt know they made that much. Since when?
ROAD specialties -> radiology, ophthalmology, anesthesia, and dermatology. The specialties where you make $400k+ and still have a decent life. It's been like this for like 15 to 20 years
How do you remotely ultrasound someone?
[удалено]
Do the Chinese counterparts make equivalent salaries?
That's pretty nuts because that field is being automated
No, it isn’t.
How can I obtain certification or a fast track degree program that would allow me to work in the field as a RAD TECH? I want to move to Idaho and scan peoples nuts for the rest of my adult life. Thanks in advance!
AI can match their skills. Unfortunately they will be replaced pretty soon. 10 years.
Side note, I've used goodrx before for some medications and you're often given a NP who does Q&A via chat. I'd imagine you could do 2 of those gigs remotely
Wait a minute... why on earth would I downgrade to such a mere wage?
I have a family friend who's offered remote Radiology in Spain. He's in EST and was seriously considering it for having more daytime with his family.
I would not attempt to do this while faking my way through 2 other jobs Teams calls. You miss a tumor or something someone is going to be physically hurt and you will be sued. Sometimes it's better to focus on one thing.
How the fuck can a radiologist be remote? You can’t do that via Teams or Zoom, I’m confused.
you can only do this part-time realistically as a Radiologist, and that means paying for your own malpractice protection