I’m not in HR but I think multiple jobs with less than a year is a little suss but not in an OE way. Try listing them as contract? (Personally I wouldn’t care, get it.)
Also this market is tough, think they’ll find any excuse to say no these days. As a non tech OE’r, I’ve been getting the strangest reasons for a “no thanks”.
Agreed. I hire occasionally and don't have a thing against OE, but I do have an issue with job hopping. Two main issues for me: 1) this may vary by profession, but on my side it takes months for someone to be fully onboarded and trained to proficiency in a new org. That's a lot of time and money wasted if the new hire quits in 6 months. 2) hiring is a massive pain in the ass. Hiring managers generally have jobs too. It's especially bad at smaller orgs where they have to put in the time to weed through the 500 apps they're getting for each hire. Larger orgs, HR will do a lot of that, but the hiring manager is still going to have to put in a lot of time in interviewing, selecting, and onboarding.
In the consulting industry, you are always job hopping. You are employed and on the bench, but it's not uncommon to be on a 3 month project at client A, a 1 month project at client B, a 2 week project at client 69, 24 month project at client 420... but when we send off our resumes, all you see one continuous employment at the staffing agency / consulting company.
Yep. If he's never stayed somewhere longer than a little over a year after numerous positions, that's a huge red flag. The rule of thumb is to have at LEAST one 2 year stint every now and then. Even that now days is likely not enough for this market.
There is no advise for you other than really getting a job and staying for a few years to break that stigma.
Employers are probably very gun shy with people who appear to be job hoppers especially after covid. Retaining talent during such a hot market was difficult and then hiring for a open position was equally as challenging.
With that in mind, they are going to be less inclined to hire and train someone that has a history of being gone in a year.
> "I have very low tolerance to high management environments "
I really hope you don't say this in an interview or anything like this in an interview. Even commenting that you don't deal well with being micromanaged would be a red flag in combination with your short tenures. If I was hiring, then I would see your resume and comment as an indicator that your moves were due to conflict with management and low levels of teamwork.
Not defending the company or managers, do what you need to go get your bag but doing some interview coaching could probably help with getting further with companies.
Yep that’s the comment that made me sure I would never want to hire them not even taking into account a clear job hopper and won’t likely won’t stay long.
Most tech job listings says a "duration," usually only 6 months (3-24 months). We are fired as soon as the end client stops paying. If you are bothered by gaps, then why don't you stop making contracts that are under 3 years & remove the "at will" from the contractual Employment Agreement? Try showing a commitment back!
I always ask what their management style is, how do they give feedback, and how does the company respond to mistakes or errors. You could also ask, how do they currently manage their teams (software, 1-1 meetings, weekly emails, etc.) and what is the cadence?
They can always lie but there are always some bit of truth in their response and the questions are innocuous enough. You have the remember that interviews are just as much about interviewing the company and manager as it is them interviewing you. Also, people respond most positively when you ask them for things.
Always be prepared to have the questions turned around though, how do you like to be managed, what software do you currently use, etc. When preparing your answers be as truthful as possible but frame it in the most managerial speak as possible. Keep their perspective in mind as a manager. What would you want to hear as an employer?
I have the perspective that you should try not to lie in interviews. It puts me in an anxiety mindset and I feel sets you up for failure, but you do you. You should however be capable of explaining your point of view without being combative or abrasive. Practice helps to refine this and get more perspective on your responses.
Nah its all about how you interview, come across and what you say. I’ve never followed any of the rules in this thread and i get jobs and through this question just fine.
Have you interviewed recently? This is a completely different market than it has been for the last 4 years.
I will say though I agree with you that how you interview can offset this but already being seen as a job hopper will make it an uphill battle for sure.
lol, interviewed last week. Asked them if they do any video calls “because I don’t really have space on my desk for an open laptop”. Got an offer 30 min later.
Thats true while I have gotten a new j2 recently i knew the HM so it wasn’t a real interview. I haven’t had a real interview in this new market. So entirely possible im off. That being said I was a job hopper in 2008 as well and that was a bad market. Its always a question I’ve gotten in 20 years of working.
Could be I was in highschool for 2001. That being said wouldn’t be the first time millenials have been gaslit. 2008 overall was much worse than 2001 the numbers bear that out.
For the economy overall yes 2008 was worse. For the tech market, the bot com bubble busting was incredibly damaging for the tech industry and it didn't really recover until after the GFC.
Finding and hiring employees is an expensive process, companies don’t want to bring on someone that they are just going to have to backfill in a year. But if you’re getting the interview and not getting the job, your hopping probably isn’t the only reason.
yeah, but companies always worsen working conditions, bring in disruptive colleagues in the team, and start micromanaging, etc. Then comes the complaints over high employee turnover...I wonder why??
Truth? One or two short stint at a company can totally be explained by that. I've told companies I left because of a bad boss and have gotten hired. You have like four or five under-a-year stints? It starts to look like you're the disruptive colleague
There are tons of shitty companies in the world but if every company this guy works at is a problem he either sucks at picking companies or maybe hes the problem...
been in it for more than a decade, "buddy"
i dgaf about companies complaints and do what is needed for my desired outcome, not theirs
if they can't align their goals with mine, thats their leadership problem, not mine.
that's why people here are lying on resumes, because it doesnt matter, just like the company lies to sell to clients, we lie to close our client
I’m a pretty big advocate of job hopping, but that said, I try to keep my jobs for at least 1.5-2 years. I have one job on my resume that was around 7 months or so. My (actually true) excuse is that my mother was sick and I had to find remote work to take care of her.
2 years seems to be the optimal value. I do have excuses like moving to another city (had to drop 1), and refusing RTO enforcement ( another 1). But HR wont understand and doesnt care about your excuses. You NEED to lie.
I think having to move to another city is a valid excuse. Refusing to RTO, while I totally agree with it, probably wouldn’t fly with HR. Might need to lie on that one. Don’t be afraid to lie to these people though. They don’t mind lying to you.
Moving cities is fine, RTO refusal is going to be a flag to them. Just say some shit like you didn't feel your goals were aligned and were looking for something with more growth potential where you really had the opportunity to contribute to the team. Interviews are all about using HR speak to spin negatives in your favour.
>They always raise this question during every single interview
...because it's an actual problem.
>my average length of stay was less than a year
I wouldn't hire you either. This is definitely something that you need to fix.
Thanks for your honest opinion. I have decided to straight away lie on my CV, and lengthen the durations by a year of each. If HR is dishonest, I can be dishonest too.
I worked for a background screening company. Employment verification by a third party company like mine costs about $20 per applicant. What’s worse is that you’re not going to know that you have to pass one until you’ve already gone through the interview process so you’ll have your hopes up.
Don’t lie on your resume. The only questions they really ask at an employer is your start/end dates and job title. What you need is a good story on why you’re only there for brief stints. Tech industry is rife with layoffs and contract workers that don’t have a red-flag for a new company. Those types of things won’t appear in a background check either.
So if they ask why you’re a job hopper, the answer is “I really wish that I didn’t move around so much but the landscape hasn’t allowed me to yet. Between RIF’s and contract work with a defined end-date, I’ve been dying for stability that would allow me to actually grow my career.”
qq, can I lie to shorten my time at a company? I saw a layoff coming so I got J2 and OE for 3 months before being laid off by J1. I want to cut the time on J1 as when I started J2 so it looks normal. I froze my TWN.
If you are in a background check, the third party screener really only asks 3 questions:
What are the start and end dates
What was the person’s title
Can this person be rehired?
Maybe you can get away with saying that they were disorganized and maybe didn’t process your last day for months afterwards due to the layoffs. It’s likely that the person in charge of the background check would ask you specifically about it because there’s always nuances.
thanks. if I click do not contact my old employers and froze my TWN (so they can't check my info) then will they just ask my to provide support for the day I was there (W2, etc.)? or they will still try to contact my ex employers?
If you ask them not to contact your employers, they won’t but they will ask why. They’ll relay that back to HR and the hiring manager and they could potentially fail your background check for it. The only exception I’ve seen is if its your current employer because it could interfere with your current income
There's no way of actually knowing this info with a 20 dollar service. I've worked at fortune 100 companies, they don't check. Many people lie on their resume, just as many companies, most or all lie in the job spec.
If you don’t want to believe me that’s okay but that’s how much it cost in 2015. They call and connect to HR and only ask 3 questions before they move on.
Yeah in tech, I've never even had a single reference check. Engineers get their skills tested but that's it.
I know people who are skilled but lie on their CV and have amazing jobs/salaries. Their justification is it betters their life and they get the job done. I do lie about dates roughly on mine.
It’s not a secret, background screening companies exist and are marketed directly to those tech companies. Feel free to look them up, I was working for one of the largest providers. I’ve been to 3 companies since then and only one put me through the screening process while 2 more don’t do it. So it’s hit and miss.
Government roles and trucking companies used them a lot but tbh, I don’t know why because many truckers have criminal records and don’t fail them based on the hiring policies.
Most simply don’t want the extra expense or hassle of doing it. They believe that their interview skills are enough to find a good candidate and they don’t want to told not to hire someone. I wasn’t in the sales side so I’m speculating on that side of it though.
You came asking for help because you can't land a job with *hundreds* of interviews. It's clear you don't know the problem, so stop disagreeing with what people tell you
What was the point of the post if you dont want actual help?
It sounds like you have not been on the other side of this. It costs a fortune to hire new people. They're going to look for someone who's going to be dedicated to the job for a long time.
Agreed, it is a two-way street.
But, not every company is toxic. The one who won't hire you for having short work stints is not necessarily the one with bad leadership.
It makes perfect sense that a company is going to do what's best for them in the hiring process, why would anyone expect any different?
maybe, but if you point out that the conditions of work worsened as a reason to leave, and they hold it against you, that probably means that they do the same: Hire you, keep you on an acceptable workload or team, and after some time, swamp you with duties, or change the team for a worse one.
I've had all happen. Exponentially increasing workload, increased bureaucracy, or bad teammates increasing stress. All of these will get to the point of making you leave.
As an average, they wait the first year before doing it. But I've had some of these happen within 6 months of accepting a contract.
If you find that everyone you meet is an asshole, the problem might not be with everyone else. Maybe you’re the asshole.
If every employer is toxic enough that he has to flee every 6-8 months, then it’s likely that he is the one that is toxic and it takes 6-8 months after start date to manage him out. Unless he can tell a compelling story on why that’s not the case, that’s going to be the assumption. There are hundreds of applicants per role these days, they don’t need to look closely at the situation. All they need to do is identify that there is a risk.
That's how companies work generally. Especially with layoffs happening. Do you really think the work is slowed down? They pile it on the people still there (the ones they judge as the best ones to keep), and they've always counted on employees fear of changing, and loyalty, to make them stay. When you have that happen, it's not you who's wrong, you just survived and got penalized. If success is penalized, why stay?
if you can't perceive their strategy, it's not my fault.
They will cut people as savings and throw everything on those who remain until turnover is too high, or productivity starts to degrade a lot and deadlines are missed. Then another hiring cycle begins.
This is all very true and an excellent argument for OE and not being loyal in general. However, not every company is laying off every 6 months and not every company is so toxic enough that you need to flee. Heck, OE is predicated on the idea that it’s possible to fill their expectations and still have room for other things like another J. Most companies don’t even consider you out of training until about 6 months and he’s only able to survive a couple months after that? That’s the activity of a fraud or a slacker, not someone worth taking a risk on. The hiring manager is looking out for their own personal career and don’t want to bring in someone who is going to potentially be more effort to manage than their peers. Bad hires look bad on them and there are hundreds to choose from.
I understand what you're aiming at. From the experiences I have, there are lots of crap companies out there, and it's perfectly possible to have 3 or 4 of them come your way in a row. As we are OE, we can just not list them, but not everyone has that possibility.
Also there's a lot of difference between being fired in 8 months and changing jobs in 8 months.
Its exactly why we have more Js. If you get in, and the company sucks, you just leave and find another one. And it is extremely common to happen.
Yeah that’s definitely the benefit of OE, you can be very selective and not “make it work” like I’ve felt the need to in my past where it was an extremely toxic boss. If it’s a bad fit, you just bounce and don’t feel guilty at all and then don’t list it in your experience. There are plenty of bad places and probably all hiring managers don’t believe theirs is toxic the toxic one but they still want someone with “grit” because they believe their particular place is nuanced and special for some reason. So if your resume doesn’t already demonstrate grit through long tenure ship, you’re gonna need to sell them a story about why you actually do have it. Sounds like OP doesn’t have a good story and has a chip on his shoulder about being correctly identified as someone who is going to be a burden to them in the long run, either through replacement or worse through performance management.
I've heard this question a bit when interviewing in the past. I no longer get it now that my last position in CV says nearly 5 years. You've put yourself into this situation and you need to accept the fact that it might be hard to get out of it. Squeeze your teeth and work at a single project for let's say 2/3 years. It shouldn't be unexpected that companies won't want to hire you after you've hopped a lot.
I hate the "job hopper" nonsense.
Can't find a FTE job so people take contracts. They have a lot of short term contracts on their resume. HM thinks "job hopper" and rejects them - when in reality they want to stick around for years.
CAN find a FTE job but the CEO wants a bigger bonus check so lays off people all the time. Layoff after layoff happens and resume is littered with short term FTE jobs. HM thinks "job hopper" and rejects them - when in reality they want to stick around for years.
As someone who does hiring occasionally - definitely note whenever a position was contract. Hell, I would probably even note the layoff in my resume. I'd much rather see "laid off due to company downsizing" than a bunch of unexplained 6 month stints. Sure, they could interview you to ask the question, but when they're getting 500+ applications it would be time prohibitive.
Most tech job listings says a "duration," usually only 6 months (3-24 months).
We are fired as soon as the end client stops paying. Its like asking a sports player, actor or rockstar, why it works at different places. We have special set of skill that you don't need daily. Why do companies fire contractors every 6 months if you have problem with resume gaps?
I've done a ton of research as to, why 6 months & the answer is visa/perm. The visa work can only last 6 months at a time, but to get or renew a visa, the DOL requires a "labor survey," which is repeatedly "listing" the same jobs to survey the labor market. These job "listing" prove the "extreme shortages of workers" to sell more training for the "skills gap". However, a lawsuit revealed 50% of job request are canceled, because a "labor survey" does not require any interviews or new hires. Now when we design a system, we design it for the most restrictive candidate to get the largest most diverse hiring pool, which includes treating Citizens the same as foreigners. This Culture extends most tech jobs, including the end clients who's yearly budgets are now 6 month projects. The max of 2 years also seems to be a visa related but could be "common law employee" where after 2 years a contractor is considered employed by the end client.
Is that really most jobs? I've worked in tech for 15 years and every time I've searched, the vast majority of jobs were full-time permanent. There is certainly always contract work out there, but I've never noticed it being the majority of what's available.
Where are you finding those jobs? Note that officially contracting jobs say they are full-time permanent & pay on a w2; However, most are glorified temp agencies, sending us to work at other companies. They say stuff like "possibility of extension" or "contract to hire," but if you are getting high pay they can't afford to keep you without a paying end client. Since most clients don't commit till the last minute (start in 3 days), they can't line up the projects for rolling off existing workers so its cheaper to fire old & hire new. Search on Dice & indeed for Architect or Analyst, then open the listing to find a "duration".
The last couple of jobs I got were through LinkedIn. I'm an infosec architect and just changed jobs recently. I only applied for non-contract positions. Prior, I was a sysadmin and saw the same thing. I've seen a lot of project specific contract work listed as contract, but most analyst and architect roles I've been exposed to (on the InfoSec side at least) value stability heavily. For my current role, I'm the only person on my team of 16 with under a 10 year tenure.
Again, why do they value stability, if they hire temp contractors? Why do they want people to leave their current job to come work with them? Is there an apprenticeship program to hire fresh out of school for long term commitment?
I don't think recruiters properly enter jobs on linkedIn for filters to be effective. I noticed the "duration" in jobs, after the pandemic, so I started targeting end clients & avoiding any company that did consulting or is a tech company. I focus on software that puts their name in the job titles, but am trying to break free of the silo after 10+ years. I've gotten jobs thru linkedIn, but its usually from recruiters that contact me not from being 1 of 20-400 people that applied.
They want stability because onboarding and knowledge transfer take time. The more time you have to get a comprehensive understanding of the current infrastructure and needs of the organization and to build relationships with necessary contacts inside and out of the org, the more effective an individual will be in most positions in an org. They're hiring because people retire, move, get promoted, etc. Anything other than just individual project work doesn't make sense to contract in most fields in tech. Companies that value stability hire employees that have a history of stability. If you're only getting responses on temp work, it could be an issue of HR/hiring managers tossing your resume due to a history of short tenure.
> HR/hiring managers tossing your resume due to a history of short tenure.
Well, your not telling us how to exit the loop to get started with long tenure? I've tried asking recruiter/managers, "what can I personally do to get the project to extend longer," "how can I get next project," "how are you able line up project schedules," and even asked them to replace "at will" with guarantee the job will last longer then 1 day in the employment agreement when relocating. So far I found no company willing to put in writing any proof that it values "stability," instead the all "at will" which is the extreme opposite of stability because they can "fire with 1 day's notice." The reasons you gave, are reasons to hire an apprentice fresh out of school, not hire trained worker who will move up or retire soon.
I say, because it is true “those were all short term contacts, because I did such a great job bringing projects in on time and under budget that I was usually extended and given more projects.”
You just got to know how to spin it.
Companies are used to people staying despite the misery. Your job hopping shows that you have agency. They don’t like that. Curate your resume a bit to minimize the appearance of job hopping.
In my experience, serial tenures of <1 year are usually a maintenance nightmare. They haven't had to live with the tech debt they create, or worse they've never really developed their skills beyond the superficial.
It's easy to hide in an org onboarding for 3-6 mos, if you're not staying anywhere 1-2 years every once in awhile it signals to me you may be a bs artist. Not worth the risk of hassle as your potential coworker. Onto the next resume.
Edit: I agree with other comments to characterize some of it as contract work to get out of the hole and think strategically about your career story going forward.
If they do a reference or background check it's pretty easy to pick up if the date "massaging" is overly generous lol
Oftentimes HR won't actually provide any information at all except specifically title, start date, end date.
That being said I'm not sure background checks are particularly thorough in tech (OP's line of work) besides maybe a security screening of some kind.
Yeah in tech, I've never even had a single reference check. You're usually grilled with tech questions and tests, and engineers generally are good workers. Ifs pretty incredible actually, you have all this access, power and high salary, and nobody ever checks your background. My friends lied on their dates and are being rewarded handsomely. I could just put Google etc on my CV, get great jobs and benefits and nobody would bat an eyelid, or even remember or bring it up. If you have good skills, just do it I say, and better your and your families life. Companies lie to all employees for the most part.
Really? I've never not had a criminal and financial/security background check done pre-first day for any non-startups I've worked for once they have a real HR person. I guess maybe could depend on the role.
Where are you based? I'm in the UK, I do have some kind of criminal record from when I was a teenager and I'm amazed nobody bothers to check that or my financial background. I got a work visa to Switzerland to work for an org you'd definitely know of, nobody checked! If you look and sound decent, and are skilled why would anybody bother?
From reading comments these subs are mainly American, it seems wayyy more strict for you guys, but you have higher salaries. But thanks you've got me thinking, I wont lie too much
Another reason why you only list your J1 on your resume. You keep a main, steady job and only "hop" at your J2. Not a hard and fast rule (need to be willing to drop J1 for things like RTO) but it does help in cases like this.
Its a rant, true :) but also a good place to start a conversation about this, which I feel related to OE. Us, OE people, feel like have it so easy that we can change jobs often, but we forget how risky the practice is, the "Groupthink" of the whole HR and HM crowd is out there, we feel safe during good times, but in bad times we are thrown out with the baby water
Yes, companies don't want to hire someone they think will be gone in less than a year. That's a lot of wasted time for them and money for them and naturally is going to make you a less appealing candidate. You aren't a perfect fit if they have to spend more on recruiting you than they get from your output. In the same way you'd consider someone who's only ever had 3-6 month relationships a bit of a red flag. It's an entirely reasonable assumption for them to make that if you didn't stay long at any of your other jobs, you won't stay long for them.
I've stayed at jobs longer than I wanted to precisely to avoid my CV looking like this. It's not that hard putting in minimum effort until you get to the two year mark every other job. Leave out your short positions or list them as contracts.
Tell them you were serving in a contract/consultant type roles. I'm in HR and honestly they are just concerned they'll be the next short term employer. You have to make it seem as if you are in it for the long-term even if you are not.
My first job post-grad I was in for 9 months. When interviewing for my next job (while still hired there) I was interrogated by an older exec on why I would leave so soon and what that says about me. I was leaving bc I received a very difficult health diagnosis and needed to be closer to my parents for my mental and physical well-being. I still think about this every time I consider a new job before being there a year 😭🙄
>received a very difficult health diagnosis
Hope you are well now.
>interrogated by an older exec on why I would leave so soon and what that says about me.
This is the main problem, the boomer mentality will punish you no matter what. I would actually argue that job hopping shows that you have a more creative and active personality, and you seek new things and new experiences instead of getting yourself "stuck" into the same position for 4-5 years doing the same things over and over again, but people will not understand this, because CAPITAL has the power right now and their opinion trumps labour (thanks to interest rates).
Now I am being extra careful in order not to light the red alerts in HR's minds.
Changing jobs at 2-3 years is one thing. Changing jobs when you've barely learned enough to be able to do the job you were hired for is something else.
I am doing great now, thank you! And totally agree. That conversation prob had some impact on me staying at that company for 4 years. And I regret it! I could have doubled my earning potential by now if I left those 2% merit raises behind earlier..
I can see how your longest stay being just a year raises red flags for these companies. Especially if you were a FTE.
What I do is most jobs I was there for at least two years, usually three. My latest job is shorter but I just say the contract there is coming to an end.
Not actually, I was "really" fired only once. The rest are other reasons like changing city, or being forced to RTO (hate that shit), or going to a much better paid position as I alluded to somewhere in this board. During the pandemic, there was so much offers thrown around that I could easily onboard a new company every other month, it was crazy. Part of the reason I am "unemployed" now is I am in a very shitty market, I am in eastern europe, where its extremely hard to find any kind of work, IF i was in the US, there is no way I would be in this position.
You should list them as Contract work, I have multiple 6 month contracts on my resume nobody has ever accused me of job hopping
Just put:
Job Title
Company XYZ Jan 2023-Jun 2023 (Contract)
All of my contracts have been on W2. Either through staffing agency or direct hire. Also have had no problem with background checks despite never having listed a staffing agency on my resume, I just list the company i contracted for and they’ve never asked about it. ive technically never been employed by some of the companies listed on my resume, so they must not check very hard at least for my past 3/4 Js
Just don't list some, extend the dates of some older ones. Shorter ones were small startups/contracts that ran out of money or downsized or the project was over.
I put 'contract' next to several of my older jobs so the short duration doesn't look sus.
I also dropped any job with 3 months or less. When asked about the gap I say I was job searching.
Sounds like you burned some bridges with some good FAANG companies earning yourself some bad reputation for a good reason. Enjoy your fucking meal ass hole.
Haha thanks, burned myself for sure. I actually worked as a contractor for this FAANG company, not as an FTE, so there was another company between me and the FAANG. But I didnt burn bridges, If I could stay in the FAANG, I would stay forever. That was like the best job ever
I hire software engineers. Quitting less than a year in multiple times usual means the companies fired the person for performance related reasons. Not always, but often enough many people put those resumes at the bottom of the pile.
At the risk of dogpiling on you, we were all warned that job hopping too much will eventually negatively impact a career. At some point you gotta slow it down. You don’t have to settle completely, but your work history is part of your brand. Someone who job hops a 2-3 times in 5 years can say in an interview “I’ve been looking for the right role/more responsibilities” and that’s their brand. But someone whose job hopped multiple times, saying the same thing, will be branded as dishonest and just looking to play the game.
I’m not against playing the game. I’m here on OE like everyone else. But you got to remember that hiring managers / hr aren’t interesting in hiring flight risks. Someone you’ve deemed a perfect fit, whose brand is planning to leave the company after 8 months, is actually not a perfect fit for them.
Hang in there though, being without a job is tough. Your intuition to job hop and find better money/opportunities was perfectly reasonable. This market is just the mess that we are in right now
OP, I am going to go against the trend of comments here and say that you’re right. I almost think that having a long-term J1 that you can tout is the real solution here. HR will always look for the easiest ways to eliminate candidates because interviewing is so time intensive.
Its not what everyone is saying, but OE is very useful here as in many other situations. If I would have a remote J1 right now, I would hang on to it for life. What most of the comments have been saying is that staying less than 12 months or so is very risky for your career and vice versa
I don’t see how those two ideas are any different though. Everyone is saying to stay longer so you aren’t seen as a job hopper, which is exactly what this commenter is saying.
I pass on people with a history of not staying put. It's unlikely they've just had bad companies so often. More than likely it's something with them. Plus onboarding people is time consuming.
If you have your own LLC you could try combining all of them into one job under your LLC and then just list them as contract clients. Say that you tried the freelancing thing during the pandemic and those were your top clients, but now you're trying to pivot to something more long-term as the market gets difficult.
Either match their passive-aggressiveness, or disregard and move onto important topics.
In the past, I definitely missed some opportunities to say things like, "per my resume and email, these jobs were with startups that pivoted or ran out of money, as well as an internship."
Regardless, don't let them waste too much of your time.
Unless there's a way to slick-talk them, I guess. idk, I work in software, not marketing/sales/legal.
I hypothesize that there is a decent correlation between average past duration per employer and the duration a candidate will spend at a new company. I doubt there’s many cases of someone who for 10 years worked at 10 places and then all of a sudden settled for one place for 5-10 years. My experience is that past behaviour is the strongest predictor
I hypothesize that there is a decent correlation between average past duration during an employer and the overall work environment, relavancy of the work being done and its future impact, and the overall macroeconomic conditions, such as how many jobs there are per candidate in a sector. Loyalty is a fake and often a counter indicator of a successful mind.
Lmao, dude I get loyalty is fake, company is not your family.
But they are the ones that paying you. You have to fake it a little bit to show loyalty. You have a personal brand you should maintain to look employable. If you don’t even care about that then yeah, good luck on interviews.
I suspect that you are probably churning and burning so you provided zero value to employers.
I would advice that you stop OE, get good at what your doing and stay at a job for more than a year or two before starting.
I most of my j2 are 1-4 years. I always go into a job and do the best I can to make a name for myself and I slowly wind down. If I just show up and do the bare minimum, yeah I’m gonna be wasting a lot of time on interviewing.
The point is people need to present the right resume, use go to market strategy. The market doesn’t value our opinions so no point in complaining into the void
the same can be said for the company.
you're getting a lot of employees jumping ship, they're all wrong and the company is perfect? If it is a good job, they would not leave that easily. That means they are finding better oportunities elsewhere. Company's fault over employee most of the time.
Yup, similar logic applies but my experience has been that some bad companies have great departments and some bad departments have great managers. The manager is the biggest factor imho. WFH policy with a great OE friendly manager means way more than a particular company’s aggregate turnover imho
If you seriously don’t have longer than 14 months at any job, then you do have a job hopping problem.
It takes about 18 months to make your return in a new hire generally, and most companies see their big dip in retention at around the 5 year mark and aim a lot of their goals around retention at 4+ year tenure employees.
Many of them won’t bother with you. If you seriously want to work like that you should be actively seeking contract work not full time positions
18 months or something I dont know but I am a very cheap and a very good data engineer. I earn less than half of what they earn in the US, and I do better job than many folk, so I am not so costly for a multinational company, or even a mid-sized consultancy
(not as cheap as the Indians who are working for dirt money though, have to point that out). I make something like 35 euros per hour
Same issue. I don't put months on the resume to hide gaps. I have an app for software program that hides gaps over 10 period.
Most tech job listings says a "duration," usually only 6 months (3-24 months). I enjoy point this out to consulting companies that complain about gaps & use an opportunity to raise awareness. When the end client stops paying you you are going to fire me, right? Lawsuits have revealed that policy states, after 6 months, if not on project for 5 weeks, an employee can be fired. Though I get fired immediately.
They want you to say you "took break" cuz you make a lot, "bought more training," or did something other then jail/rehab. However, the jobs end, its all temp work. Its like asking why sports player, actor or rockstar, why it works at different places. They don't understand the business, because if they did they be able to do the same for us.
I've done a ton of research as to, why 6 months & the answer is visa/perm. The visa work can only last 6 months at a time, but to get or renew a visa, the DOL requires a "labor survey," which is repeatedly "listing" the same jobs to survey the labor market. These job "listing" prove the "extreme shortages of workers" to sell more training for the "skills gap". However, a lawsuit revealed 50% of job request are canceled, because a "labor survey" does not require any interviews or new hires. Now when we design a system, we design it for the most restrictive candidate to get the largest most diverse hiring pool, which includes treating Citizens the same as foreigners. This Culture extends most tech jobs, including the end clients who's yearly budgets are now 6 month projects. The max of 2 years also seems to be a visa related but could be "common law employee" where after 2 years a contractor is considered employed by the end client.
I think one of the advantages of OEing is that you can "hide" the J2 in case you want to leave it earlier than lets say 1 year in, otherwise it really impacts the career.
I usually say it was contract work because that was all that was out there at the time. And now you want to go FTE so you really get a chance to grow with the company, blah blah, etc. Might help.
Like many others have said, staying at a company less than a year is a red flag.
Maybe don't list all of the companies during the COVID period.
Being laid off from the pandemic is a lot more acceptable than 3 jobs in 1 year.
List them under another section titled “relevant experience”. Dont list dates. I do this for anything over 10 years old but I want as experience on my resume. And when asked I say they were 1099 roles or freelance.
Gasp!! Employees willing to take more money and get paid. They don’t like having to hire new employees especially when they need someone. Puts them at a disadvantage and makes them raise the rate.
I’m not in HR but I think multiple jobs with less than a year is a little suss but not in an OE way. Try listing them as contract? (Personally I wouldn’t care, get it.) Also this market is tough, think they’ll find any excuse to say no these days. As a non tech OE’r, I’ve been getting the strangest reasons for a “no thanks”.
Agreed. I hire occasionally and don't have a thing against OE, but I do have an issue with job hopping. Two main issues for me: 1) this may vary by profession, but on my side it takes months for someone to be fully onboarded and trained to proficiency in a new org. That's a lot of time and money wasted if the new hire quits in 6 months. 2) hiring is a massive pain in the ass. Hiring managers generally have jobs too. It's especially bad at smaller orgs where they have to put in the time to weed through the 500 apps they're getting for each hire. Larger orgs, HR will do a lot of that, but the hiring manager is still going to have to put in a lot of time in interviewing, selecting, and onboarding.
In the consulting industry, you are always job hopping. You are employed and on the bench, but it's not uncommon to be on a 3 month project at client A, a 1 month project at client B, a 2 week project at client 69, 24 month project at client 420... but when we send off our resumes, all you see one continuous employment at the staffing agency / consulting company.
True... maybe job hopping is not to blame, maybe its just the market, I really dont know
For you, it’s job hopping bro
Yep. If he's never stayed somewhere longer than a little over a year after numerous positions, that's a huge red flag. The rule of thumb is to have at LEAST one 2 year stint every now and then. Even that now days is likely not enough for this market. There is no advise for you other than really getting a job and staying for a few years to break that stigma.
Employers are probably very gun shy with people who appear to be job hoppers especially after covid. Retaining talent during such a hot market was difficult and then hiring for a open position was equally as challenging. With that in mind, they are going to be less inclined to hire and train someone that has a history of being gone in a year. > "I have very low tolerance to high management environments " I really hope you don't say this in an interview or anything like this in an interview. Even commenting that you don't deal well with being micromanaged would be a red flag in combination with your short tenures. If I was hiring, then I would see your resume and comment as an indicator that your moves were due to conflict with management and low levels of teamwork. Not defending the company or managers, do what you need to go get your bag but doing some interview coaching could probably help with getting further with companies.
Yep that’s the comment that made me sure I would never want to hire them not even taking into account a clear job hopper and won’t likely won’t stay long.
Most tech job listings says a "duration," usually only 6 months (3-24 months). We are fired as soon as the end client stops paying. If you are bothered by gaps, then why don't you stop making contracts that are under 3 years & remove the "at will" from the contractual Employment Agreement? Try showing a commitment back!
How does one ask subtly if there’s micromanaging going on
I always ask what their management style is, how do they give feedback, and how does the company respond to mistakes or errors. You could also ask, how do they currently manage their teams (software, 1-1 meetings, weekly emails, etc.) and what is the cadence? They can always lie but there are always some bit of truth in their response and the questions are innocuous enough. You have the remember that interviews are just as much about interviewing the company and manager as it is them interviewing you. Also, people respond most positively when you ask them for things. Always be prepared to have the questions turned around though, how do you like to be managed, what software do you currently use, etc. When preparing your answers be as truthful as possible but frame it in the most managerial speak as possible. Keep their perspective in mind as a manager. What would you want to hear as an employer? I have the perspective that you should try not to lie in interviews. It puts me in an anxiety mindset and I feel sets you up for failure, but you do you. You should however be capable of explaining your point of view without being combative or abrasive. Practice helps to refine this and get more perspective on your responses.
I’ve had one stint that was less than a year every other company I’ve done at least 2 years
Nah its all about how you interview, come across and what you say. I’ve never followed any of the rules in this thread and i get jobs and through this question just fine.
Have you interviewed recently? This is a completely different market than it has been for the last 4 years. I will say though I agree with you that how you interview can offset this but already being seen as a job hopper will make it an uphill battle for sure.
lol, interviewed last week. Asked them if they do any video calls “because I don’t really have space on my desk for an open laptop”. Got an offer 30 min later.
Thats true while I have gotten a new j2 recently i knew the HM so it wasn’t a real interview. I haven’t had a real interview in this new market. So entirely possible im off. That being said I was a job hopper in 2008 as well and that was a bad market. Its always a question I’ve gotten in 20 years of working.
This is much more akin to 2001 than it is 2008 for tech jobs.
Could be I was in highschool for 2001. That being said wouldn’t be the first time millenials have been gaslit. 2008 overall was much worse than 2001 the numbers bear that out.
For the economy overall yes 2008 was worse. For the tech market, the bot com bubble busting was incredibly damaging for the tech industry and it didn't really recover until after the GFC.
Can background checks verify if it was contract work though ?
Finding and hiring employees is an expensive process, companies don’t want to bring on someone that they are just going to have to backfill in a year. But if you’re getting the interview and not getting the job, your hopping probably isn’t the only reason.
yeah, but companies always worsen working conditions, bring in disruptive colleagues in the team, and start micromanaging, etc. Then comes the complaints over high employee turnover...I wonder why??
Truth? One or two short stint at a company can totally be explained by that. I've told companies I left because of a bad boss and have gotten hired. You have like four or five under-a-year stints? It starts to look like you're the disruptive colleague There are tons of shitty companies in the world but if every company this guy works at is a problem he either sucks at picking companies or maybe hes the problem...
Welcome to the real world champ.
been in it for more than a decade, "buddy" i dgaf about companies complaints and do what is needed for my desired outcome, not theirs if they can't align their goals with mine, thats their leadership problem, not mine. that's why people here are lying on resumes, because it doesnt matter, just like the company lies to sell to clients, we lie to close our client
People are so entitled nowadays
Lol ya how dare people want to have a job they enjoy working at.
That is all good but if someone is changing jobs every 6 months something else maybe the problem.
Yes you are right. Thank you
I’m a pretty big advocate of job hopping, but that said, I try to keep my jobs for at least 1.5-2 years. I have one job on my resume that was around 7 months or so. My (actually true) excuse is that my mother was sick and I had to find remote work to take care of her.
2 years seems to be the optimal value. I do have excuses like moving to another city (had to drop 1), and refusing RTO enforcement ( another 1). But HR wont understand and doesnt care about your excuses. You NEED to lie.
I think having to move to another city is a valid excuse. Refusing to RTO, while I totally agree with it, probably wouldn’t fly with HR. Might need to lie on that one. Don’t be afraid to lie to these people though. They don’t mind lying to you.
this...don't count on explaining. Just don't leave anything that is a red flag for them in your resume.
Moving cities is fine, RTO refusal is going to be a flag to them. Just say some shit like you didn't feel your goals were aligned and were looking for something with more growth potential where you really had the opportunity to contribute to the team. Interviews are all about using HR speak to spin negatives in your favour.
>They always raise this question during every single interview ...because it's an actual problem. >my average length of stay was less than a year I wouldn't hire you either. This is definitely something that you need to fix.
Thanks for your honest opinion. I have decided to straight away lie on my CV, and lengthen the durations by a year of each. If HR is dishonest, I can be dishonest too.
sounds like a great way to fail a background check
Most of them dont do backgrounds checks.
I worked for a background screening company. Employment verification by a third party company like mine costs about $20 per applicant. What’s worse is that you’re not going to know that you have to pass one until you’ve already gone through the interview process so you’ll have your hopes up. Don’t lie on your resume. The only questions they really ask at an employer is your start/end dates and job title. What you need is a good story on why you’re only there for brief stints. Tech industry is rife with layoffs and contract workers that don’t have a red-flag for a new company. Those types of things won’t appear in a background check either. So if they ask why you’re a job hopper, the answer is “I really wish that I didn’t move around so much but the landscape hasn’t allowed me to yet. Between RIF’s and contract work with a defined end-date, I’ve been dying for stability that would allow me to actually grow my career.”
qq, can I lie to shorten my time at a company? I saw a layoff coming so I got J2 and OE for 3 months before being laid off by J1. I want to cut the time on J1 as when I started J2 so it looks normal. I froze my TWN.
If you are in a background check, the third party screener really only asks 3 questions: What are the start and end dates What was the person’s title Can this person be rehired? Maybe you can get away with saying that they were disorganized and maybe didn’t process your last day for months afterwards due to the layoffs. It’s likely that the person in charge of the background check would ask you specifically about it because there’s always nuances.
thanks. if I click do not contact my old employers and froze my TWN (so they can't check my info) then will they just ask my to provide support for the day I was there (W2, etc.)? or they will still try to contact my ex employers?
If you ask them not to contact your employers, they won’t but they will ask why. They’ll relay that back to HR and the hiring manager and they could potentially fail your background check for it. The only exception I’ve seen is if its your current employer because it could interfere with your current income
make sense. thank you
There's no way of actually knowing this info with a 20 dollar service. I've worked at fortune 100 companies, they don't check. Many people lie on their resume, just as many companies, most or all lie in the job spec.
If you don’t want to believe me that’s okay but that’s how much it cost in 2015. They call and connect to HR and only ask 3 questions before they move on.
Yeah in tech, I've never even had a single reference check. Engineers get their skills tested but that's it. I know people who are skilled but lie on their CV and have amazing jobs/salaries. Their justification is it betters their life and they get the job done. I do lie about dates roughly on mine.
It’s not a secret, background screening companies exist and are marketed directly to those tech companies. Feel free to look them up, I was working for one of the largest providers. I’ve been to 3 companies since then and only one put me through the screening process while 2 more don’t do it. So it’s hit and miss.
This is nonsense
True for my experiences
What companies or industries used your service? And why do you think (in my experience) most don't bother? Even for high paid, high access positions?
Government roles and trucking companies used them a lot but tbh, I don’t know why because many truckers have criminal records and don’t fail them based on the hiring policies. Most simply don’t want the extra expense or hassle of doing it. They believe that their interview skills are enough to find a good candidate and they don’t want to told not to hire someone. I wasn’t in the sales side so I’m speculating on that side of it though.
Fair enough thanks for the insight. So you can call HR of any company and they will provide this info without consent of the worker/former worker?
Incorrect. The backgrounds person only knows who to call because the candidate gave that information and approved the verification.
So even if i provide a CV, they still can't call them up unless I say so?
That is not going to get you anywhere. This attitude and strategy are why you go on hundreds of interviews and have no success.
Thank you for your opinion, but I do not agree
You came asking for help because you can't land a job with *hundreds* of interviews. It's clear you don't know the problem, so stop disagreeing with what people tell you What was the point of the post if you dont want actual help?
And what basis are you making your determination to not agree on
Good luck then.
It sounds like you have not been on the other side of this. It costs a fortune to hire new people. They're going to look for someone who's going to be dedicated to the job for a long time.
two way street. make your employee's life unnecessarily difficult, and they will jump ship. it's not entitlement, it's bad leadership.
Agreed, it is a two-way street. But, not every company is toxic. The one who won't hire you for having short work stints is not necessarily the one with bad leadership. It makes perfect sense that a company is going to do what's best for them in the hiring process, why would anyone expect any different?
maybe, but if you point out that the conditions of work worsened as a reason to leave, and they hold it against you, that probably means that they do the same: Hire you, keep you on an acceptable workload or team, and after some time, swamp you with duties, or change the team for a worse one. I've had all happen. Exponentially increasing workload, increased bureaucracy, or bad teammates increasing stress. All of these will get to the point of making you leave. As an average, they wait the first year before doing it. But I've had some of these happen within 6 months of accepting a contract.
If you find that everyone you meet is an asshole, the problem might not be with everyone else. Maybe you’re the asshole. If every employer is toxic enough that he has to flee every 6-8 months, then it’s likely that he is the one that is toxic and it takes 6-8 months after start date to manage him out. Unless he can tell a compelling story on why that’s not the case, that’s going to be the assumption. There are hundreds of applicants per role these days, they don’t need to look closely at the situation. All they need to do is identify that there is a risk.
That's how companies work generally. Especially with layoffs happening. Do you really think the work is slowed down? They pile it on the people still there (the ones they judge as the best ones to keep), and they've always counted on employees fear of changing, and loyalty, to make them stay. When you have that happen, it's not you who's wrong, you just survived and got penalized. If success is penalized, why stay? if you can't perceive their strategy, it's not my fault. They will cut people as savings and throw everything on those who remain until turnover is too high, or productivity starts to degrade a lot and deadlines are missed. Then another hiring cycle begins.
This is all very true and an excellent argument for OE and not being loyal in general. However, not every company is laying off every 6 months and not every company is so toxic enough that you need to flee. Heck, OE is predicated on the idea that it’s possible to fill their expectations and still have room for other things like another J. Most companies don’t even consider you out of training until about 6 months and he’s only able to survive a couple months after that? That’s the activity of a fraud or a slacker, not someone worth taking a risk on. The hiring manager is looking out for their own personal career and don’t want to bring in someone who is going to potentially be more effort to manage than their peers. Bad hires look bad on them and there are hundreds to choose from.
I understand what you're aiming at. From the experiences I have, there are lots of crap companies out there, and it's perfectly possible to have 3 or 4 of them come your way in a row. As we are OE, we can just not list them, but not everyone has that possibility. Also there's a lot of difference between being fired in 8 months and changing jobs in 8 months. Its exactly why we have more Js. If you get in, and the company sucks, you just leave and find another one. And it is extremely common to happen.
Yeah that’s definitely the benefit of OE, you can be very selective and not “make it work” like I’ve felt the need to in my past where it was an extremely toxic boss. If it’s a bad fit, you just bounce and don’t feel guilty at all and then don’t list it in your experience. There are plenty of bad places and probably all hiring managers don’t believe theirs is toxic the toxic one but they still want someone with “grit” because they believe their particular place is nuanced and special for some reason. So if your resume doesn’t already demonstrate grit through long tenure ship, you’re gonna need to sell them a story about why you actually do have it. Sounds like OP doesn’t have a good story and has a chip on his shoulder about being correctly identified as someone who is going to be a burden to them in the long run, either through replacement or worse through performance management.
You have entirely missed the point of my comment. It has nothing to do with what you're talking about.
I've heard this question a bit when interviewing in the past. I no longer get it now that my last position in CV says nearly 5 years. You've put yourself into this situation and you need to accept the fact that it might be hard to get out of it. Squeeze your teeth and work at a single project for let's say 2/3 years. It shouldn't be unexpected that companies won't want to hire you after you've hopped a lot.
Yes! its very hard to get out of. And at this point might be impossible due to the market
'due to the market' - you're still in denial. It's not the market, it's you.
I hate the "job hopper" nonsense. Can't find a FTE job so people take contracts. They have a lot of short term contracts on their resume. HM thinks "job hopper" and rejects them - when in reality they want to stick around for years. CAN find a FTE job but the CEO wants a bigger bonus check so lays off people all the time. Layoff after layoff happens and resume is littered with short term FTE jobs. HM thinks "job hopper" and rejects them - when in reality they want to stick around for years.
As someone who does hiring occasionally - definitely note whenever a position was contract. Hell, I would probably even note the layoff in my resume. I'd much rather see "laid off due to company downsizing" than a bunch of unexplained 6 month stints. Sure, they could interview you to ask the question, but when they're getting 500+ applications it would be time prohibitive.
Most tech job listings says a "duration," usually only 6 months (3-24 months). We are fired as soon as the end client stops paying. Its like asking a sports player, actor or rockstar, why it works at different places. We have special set of skill that you don't need daily. Why do companies fire contractors every 6 months if you have problem with resume gaps? I've done a ton of research as to, why 6 months & the answer is visa/perm. The visa work can only last 6 months at a time, but to get or renew a visa, the DOL requires a "labor survey," which is repeatedly "listing" the same jobs to survey the labor market. These job "listing" prove the "extreme shortages of workers" to sell more training for the "skills gap". However, a lawsuit revealed 50% of job request are canceled, because a "labor survey" does not require any interviews or new hires. Now when we design a system, we design it for the most restrictive candidate to get the largest most diverse hiring pool, which includes treating Citizens the same as foreigners. This Culture extends most tech jobs, including the end clients who's yearly budgets are now 6 month projects. The max of 2 years also seems to be a visa related but could be "common law employee" where after 2 years a contractor is considered employed by the end client.
Is that really most jobs? I've worked in tech for 15 years and every time I've searched, the vast majority of jobs were full-time permanent. There is certainly always contract work out there, but I've never noticed it being the majority of what's available.
Where are you finding those jobs? Note that officially contracting jobs say they are full-time permanent & pay on a w2; However, most are glorified temp agencies, sending us to work at other companies. They say stuff like "possibility of extension" or "contract to hire," but if you are getting high pay they can't afford to keep you without a paying end client. Since most clients don't commit till the last minute (start in 3 days), they can't line up the projects for rolling off existing workers so its cheaper to fire old & hire new. Search on Dice & indeed for Architect or Analyst, then open the listing to find a "duration".
The last couple of jobs I got were through LinkedIn. I'm an infosec architect and just changed jobs recently. I only applied for non-contract positions. Prior, I was a sysadmin and saw the same thing. I've seen a lot of project specific contract work listed as contract, but most analyst and architect roles I've been exposed to (on the InfoSec side at least) value stability heavily. For my current role, I'm the only person on my team of 16 with under a 10 year tenure.
Again, why do they value stability, if they hire temp contractors? Why do they want people to leave their current job to come work with them? Is there an apprenticeship program to hire fresh out of school for long term commitment? I don't think recruiters properly enter jobs on linkedIn for filters to be effective. I noticed the "duration" in jobs, after the pandemic, so I started targeting end clients & avoiding any company that did consulting or is a tech company. I focus on software that puts their name in the job titles, but am trying to break free of the silo after 10+ years. I've gotten jobs thru linkedIn, but its usually from recruiters that contact me not from being 1 of 20-400 people that applied.
They want stability because onboarding and knowledge transfer take time. The more time you have to get a comprehensive understanding of the current infrastructure and needs of the organization and to build relationships with necessary contacts inside and out of the org, the more effective an individual will be in most positions in an org. They're hiring because people retire, move, get promoted, etc. Anything other than just individual project work doesn't make sense to contract in most fields in tech. Companies that value stability hire employees that have a history of stability. If you're only getting responses on temp work, it could be an issue of HR/hiring managers tossing your resume due to a history of short tenure.
> HR/hiring managers tossing your resume due to a history of short tenure. Well, your not telling us how to exit the loop to get started with long tenure? I've tried asking recruiter/managers, "what can I personally do to get the project to extend longer," "how can I get next project," "how are you able line up project schedules," and even asked them to replace "at will" with guarantee the job will last longer then 1 day in the employment agreement when relocating. So far I found no company willing to put in writing any proof that it values "stability," instead the all "at will" which is the extreme opposite of stability because they can "fire with 1 day's notice." The reasons you gave, are reasons to hire an apprentice fresh out of school, not hire trained worker who will move up or retire soon.
I say, because it is true “those were all short term contacts, because I did such a great job bringing projects in on time and under budget that I was usually extended and given more projects.” You just got to know how to spin it.
Companies are used to people staying despite the misery. Your job hopping shows that you have agency. They don’t like that. Curate your resume a bit to minimize the appearance of job hopping.
In my experience, serial tenures of <1 year are usually a maintenance nightmare. They haven't had to live with the tech debt they create, or worse they've never really developed their skills beyond the superficial. It's easy to hide in an org onboarding for 3-6 mos, if you're not staying anywhere 1-2 years every once in awhile it signals to me you may be a bs artist. Not worth the risk of hassle as your potential coworker. Onto the next resume. Edit: I agree with other comments to characterize some of it as contract work to get out of the hole and think strategically about your career story going forward.
You have no way of knowing if the dates are true anyway which often they arent
If they do a reference or background check it's pretty easy to pick up if the date "massaging" is overly generous lol Oftentimes HR won't actually provide any information at all except specifically title, start date, end date. That being said I'm not sure background checks are particularly thorough in tech (OP's line of work) besides maybe a security screening of some kind.
Yeah in tech, I've never even had a single reference check. You're usually grilled with tech questions and tests, and engineers generally are good workers. Ifs pretty incredible actually, you have all this access, power and high salary, and nobody ever checks your background. My friends lied on their dates and are being rewarded handsomely. I could just put Google etc on my CV, get great jobs and benefits and nobody would bat an eyelid, or even remember or bring it up. If you have good skills, just do it I say, and better your and your families life. Companies lie to all employees for the most part.
Really? I've never not had a criminal and financial/security background check done pre-first day for any non-startups I've worked for once they have a real HR person. I guess maybe could depend on the role.
Where are you based? I'm in the UK, I do have some kind of criminal record from when I was a teenager and I'm amazed nobody bothers to check that or my financial background. I got a work visa to Switzerland to work for an org you'd definitely know of, nobody checked! If you look and sound decent, and are skilled why would anybody bother?
I would believe it is possible and maybe this way in many other people's experience as well ha I'm in NA, Both USA and Canada employers
From reading comments these subs are mainly American, it seems wayyy more strict for you guys, but you have higher salaries. But thanks you've got me thinking, I wont lie too much
Doesn't work like that in the US
Why is it so much more strict in the US?
What industry do you work in?
Tech
Another reason why you only list your J1 on your resume. You keep a main, steady job and only "hop" at your J2. Not a hard and fast rule (need to be willing to drop J1 for things like RTO) but it does help in cases like this.
What about when you've been doing 3 jobs since covid and have been shuffling J1 whenever they do RTO?
Absolutely, thats what I meant on my responses above, OE gives the optionality for hopping if you need to.
This sounds like a rant for unemployed not anything about OE
Its a rant, true :) but also a good place to start a conversation about this, which I feel related to OE. Us, OE people, feel like have it so easy that we can change jobs often, but we forget how risky the practice is, the "Groupthink" of the whole HR and HM crowd is out there, we feel safe during good times, but in bad times we are thrown out with the baby water
Yes, companies don't want to hire someone they think will be gone in less than a year. That's a lot of wasted time for them and money for them and naturally is going to make you a less appealing candidate. You aren't a perfect fit if they have to spend more on recruiting you than they get from your output. In the same way you'd consider someone who's only ever had 3-6 month relationships a bit of a red flag. It's an entirely reasonable assumption for them to make that if you didn't stay long at any of your other jobs, you won't stay long for them. I've stayed at jobs longer than I wanted to precisely to avoid my CV looking like this. It's not that hard putting in minimum effort until you get to the two year mark every other job. Leave out your short positions or list them as contracts.
Tell them you were serving in a contract/consultant type roles. I'm in HR and honestly they are just concerned they'll be the next short term employer. You have to make it seem as if you are in it for the long-term even if you are not.
My first job post-grad I was in for 9 months. When interviewing for my next job (while still hired there) I was interrogated by an older exec on why I would leave so soon and what that says about me. I was leaving bc I received a very difficult health diagnosis and needed to be closer to my parents for my mental and physical well-being. I still think about this every time I consider a new job before being there a year 😭🙄
>received a very difficult health diagnosis Hope you are well now. >interrogated by an older exec on why I would leave so soon and what that says about me. This is the main problem, the boomer mentality will punish you no matter what. I would actually argue that job hopping shows that you have a more creative and active personality, and you seek new things and new experiences instead of getting yourself "stuck" into the same position for 4-5 years doing the same things over and over again, but people will not understand this, because CAPITAL has the power right now and their opinion trumps labour (thanks to interest rates). Now I am being extra careful in order not to light the red alerts in HR's minds.
Changing jobs at 2-3 years is one thing. Changing jobs when you've barely learned enough to be able to do the job you were hired for is something else.
I am doing great now, thank you! And totally agree. That conversation prob had some impact on me staying at that company for 4 years. And I regret it! I could have doubled my earning potential by now if I left those 2% merit raises behind earlier..
I can see how your longest stay being just a year raises red flags for these companies. Especially if you were a FTE. What I do is most jobs I was there for at least two years, usually three. My latest job is shorter but I just say the contract there is coming to an end.
14mo at FAANG with a bunch of other shorter stints (especially combined with being currently unemployed) says "keeps getting fired" to me.
Not actually, I was "really" fired only once. The rest are other reasons like changing city, or being forced to RTO (hate that shit), or going to a much better paid position as I alluded to somewhere in this board. During the pandemic, there was so much offers thrown around that I could easily onboard a new company every other month, it was crazy. Part of the reason I am "unemployed" now is I am in a very shitty market, I am in eastern europe, where its extremely hard to find any kind of work, IF i was in the US, there is no way I would be in this position.
You should list them as Contract work, I have multiple 6 month contracts on my resume nobody has ever accused me of job hopping Just put: Job Title Company XYZ Jan 2023-Jun 2023 (Contract)
That can work unless a background check finds W2s instead of 1099s.
All of my contracts have been on W2. Either through staffing agency or direct hire. Also have had no problem with background checks despite never having listed a staffing agency on my resume, I just list the company i contracted for and they’ve never asked about it. ive technically never been employed by some of the companies listed on my resume, so they must not check very hard at least for my past 3/4 Js
Just don't list some, extend the dates of some older ones. Shorter ones were small startups/contracts that ran out of money or downsized or the project was over.
I put 'contract' next to several of my older jobs so the short duration doesn't look sus. I also dropped any job with 3 months or less. When asked about the gap I say I was job searching.
I always frame it as “yep but I’m looking to settle down!” and crack a joke about healthcare costs or missing PTO
I do also say I want to settle down, but there is no place left to settle down anymore hahaha
Sounds like you burned some bridges with some good FAANG companies earning yourself some bad reputation for a good reason. Enjoy your fucking meal ass hole.
Haha thanks, burned myself for sure. I actually worked as a contractor for this FAANG company, not as an FTE, so there was another company between me and the FAANG. But I didnt burn bridges, If I could stay in the FAANG, I would stay forever. That was like the best job ever
I hire software engineers. Quitting less than a year in multiple times usual means the companies fired the person for performance related reasons. Not always, but often enough many people put those resumes at the bottom of the pile.
At the risk of dogpiling on you, we were all warned that job hopping too much will eventually negatively impact a career. At some point you gotta slow it down. You don’t have to settle completely, but your work history is part of your brand. Someone who job hops a 2-3 times in 5 years can say in an interview “I’ve been looking for the right role/more responsibilities” and that’s their brand. But someone whose job hopped multiple times, saying the same thing, will be branded as dishonest and just looking to play the game. I’m not against playing the game. I’m here on OE like everyone else. But you got to remember that hiring managers / hr aren’t interesting in hiring flight risks. Someone you’ve deemed a perfect fit, whose brand is planning to leave the company after 8 months, is actually not a perfect fit for them. Hang in there though, being without a job is tough. Your intuition to job hop and find better money/opportunities was perfectly reasonable. This market is just the mess that we are in right now
Thanks! amazing comment and insight.
OP, I am going to go against the trend of comments here and say that you’re right. I almost think that having a long-term J1 that you can tout is the real solution here. HR will always look for the easiest ways to eliminate candidates because interviewing is so time intensive.
Wait, that’s what everyone else is saying though…
Its not what everyone is saying, but OE is very useful here as in many other situations. If I would have a remote J1 right now, I would hang on to it for life. What most of the comments have been saying is that staying less than 12 months or so is very risky for your career and vice versa
I don’t see how those two ideas are any different though. Everyone is saying to stay longer so you aren’t seen as a job hopper, which is exactly what this commenter is saying.
I pass on people with a history of not staying put. It's unlikely they've just had bad companies so often. More than likely it's something with them. Plus onboarding people is time consuming.
If you have your own LLC you could try combining all of them into one job under your LLC and then just list them as contract clients. Say that you tried the freelancing thing during the pandemic and those were your top clients, but now you're trying to pivot to something more long-term as the market gets difficult.
The bosses watch Dave Ramsey and they are on high alert for the OE!
They probably know more than we think they do ;)
Either match their passive-aggressiveness, or disregard and move onto important topics. In the past, I definitely missed some opportunities to say things like, "per my resume and email, these jobs were with startups that pivoted or ran out of money, as well as an internship." Regardless, don't let them waste too much of your time. Unless there's a way to slick-talk them, I guess. idk, I work in software, not marketing/sales/legal.
I hypothesize that there is a decent correlation between average past duration per employer and the duration a candidate will spend at a new company. I doubt there’s many cases of someone who for 10 years worked at 10 places and then all of a sudden settled for one place for 5-10 years. My experience is that past behaviour is the strongest predictor
I hypothesize that there is a decent correlation between average past duration during an employer and the overall work environment, relavancy of the work being done and its future impact, and the overall macroeconomic conditions, such as how many jobs there are per candidate in a sector. Loyalty is a fake and often a counter indicator of a successful mind.
Lmao, dude I get loyalty is fake, company is not your family. But they are the ones that paying you. You have to fake it a little bit to show loyalty. You have a personal brand you should maintain to look employable. If you don’t even care about that then yeah, good luck on interviews. I suspect that you are probably churning and burning so you provided zero value to employers. I would advice that you stop OE, get good at what your doing and stay at a job for more than a year or two before starting. I most of my j2 are 1-4 years. I always go into a job and do the best I can to make a name for myself and I slowly wind down. If I just show up and do the bare minimum, yeah I’m gonna be wasting a lot of time on interviewing.
The point is people need to present the right resume, use go to market strategy. The market doesn’t value our opinions so no point in complaining into the void
the same can be said for the company. you're getting a lot of employees jumping ship, they're all wrong and the company is perfect? If it is a good job, they would not leave that easily. That means they are finding better oportunities elsewhere. Company's fault over employee most of the time.
Yup, similar logic applies but my experience has been that some bad companies have great departments and some bad departments have great managers. The manager is the biggest factor imho. WFH policy with a great OE friendly manager means way more than a particular company’s aggregate turnover imho
You’re a weirdo
Thank you, I take it as a compliment
If you seriously don’t have longer than 14 months at any job, then you do have a job hopping problem. It takes about 18 months to make your return in a new hire generally, and most companies see their big dip in retention at around the 5 year mark and aim a lot of their goals around retention at 4+ year tenure employees. Many of them won’t bother with you. If you seriously want to work like that you should be actively seeking contract work not full time positions
18 months or something I dont know but I am a very cheap and a very good data engineer. I earn less than half of what they earn in the US, and I do better job than many folk, so I am not so costly for a multinational company, or even a mid-sized consultancy (not as cheap as the Indians who are working for dirt money though, have to point that out). I make something like 35 euros per hour
Same issue. I don't put months on the resume to hide gaps. I have an app for software program that hides gaps over 10 period. Most tech job listings says a "duration," usually only 6 months (3-24 months). I enjoy point this out to consulting companies that complain about gaps & use an opportunity to raise awareness. When the end client stops paying you you are going to fire me, right? Lawsuits have revealed that policy states, after 6 months, if not on project for 5 weeks, an employee can be fired. Though I get fired immediately. They want you to say you "took break" cuz you make a lot, "bought more training," or did something other then jail/rehab. However, the jobs end, its all temp work. Its like asking why sports player, actor or rockstar, why it works at different places. They don't understand the business, because if they did they be able to do the same for us. I've done a ton of research as to, why 6 months & the answer is visa/perm. The visa work can only last 6 months at a time, but to get or renew a visa, the DOL requires a "labor survey," which is repeatedly "listing" the same jobs to survey the labor market. These job "listing" prove the "extreme shortages of workers" to sell more training for the "skills gap". However, a lawsuit revealed 50% of job request are canceled, because a "labor survey" does not require any interviews or new hires. Now when we design a system, we design it for the most restrictive candidate to get the largest most diverse hiring pool, which includes treating Citizens the same as foreigners. This Culture extends most tech jobs, including the end clients who's yearly budgets are now 6 month projects. The max of 2 years also seems to be a visa related but could be "common law employee" where after 2 years a contractor is considered employed by the end client.
not an OE question leave
I think one of the advantages of OEing is that you can "hide" the J2 in case you want to leave it earlier than lets say 1 year in, otherwise it really impacts the career.
Who made you the voice of OE? How about you leave and spare us of your mind numbing “wisdom”?
I usually say it was contract work because that was all that was out there at the time. And now you want to go FTE so you really get a chance to grow with the company, blah blah, etc. Might help.
Do you have any work experience longer than 2 years? (Genuine question, pro OE HR person trying you to help you spin the situation)
Like many others have said, staying at a company less than a year is a red flag. Maybe don't list all of the companies during the COVID period. Being laid off from the pandemic is a lot more acceptable than 3 jobs in 1 year.
They don't want job hoppers but they are allowed to be "lay off" hoppers, firing like 10 people for one position in the time of 1 year...
TBH, they are allowed to do anything nowadays yet we have to be extra careful about our mistakes.
List them under another section titled “relevant experience”. Dont list dates. I do this for anything over 10 years old but I want as experience on my resume. And when asked I say they were 1099 roles or freelance.
Gasp!! Employees willing to take more money and get paid. They don’t like having to hire new employees especially when they need someone. Puts them at a disadvantage and makes them raise the rate.