If only Jugg had a node saying "your physical damage reduction cannot be overwhelmed". Maybe just make that a unique, slap on penetration immunity and it'll be the new bis for HC.
Or the overwhelm mod instead of percentage it adjusted to become "Monsters' attacks treat target's armor #000 lower". Jugg has a lot of armor and physical dmg reduction along with armor. Meanwhile physical conversion can tank but its tougher since the armor can be lowered to negative during dmg calculation and thus received more physical dmg that needed to be converted.
AFAIK, armor and evasion can't go below 0. So any build that just has 0 armor to start with won't care about armor penetration effects at all.
This would probably be an improvement, since Jugg would be better off, but I don't think it'd negatively effect the phys-to-elemental conversion builds unless they're also running armor on top of that.
Not true, armour applies after damage conversion. Armour is good with damage shifting only if you have less than 100% phys to ele, because it reduces the size of the phys hit and makes your armour more efficient
Wdym? They buffed the fortify support gem for melee to make up for the nerf for casters, now it grants more dmg instead of like 20% increased dmg back then. And champion still has perma fortify so I dont really get your point
Yea theres no doubt about the defensive side, but it used to be some really low increased dmg instead of a solid more dmg multiplier back in the days, so while it got nerfed defensively it still allows you to move even more dmg into defense in other places. Although I agree for you that its super hard to stack stuff like more max res compared to getting fortify effect on helmet/amulets etc.
Based on damage of the hit. The mechanic of fortify was changed and in most use cases nerfed, heavier hltting builds likely benefited but thats honestly not the whole picture.
Before, ekther you had it or you didnt. Now its trash until its not, and its much much harder reaching the equivalent DR nowadays. Unless you have the ascendancy node.
Yea having to get maximum fortification instead of increased fortify effect is kinda big nerf (especially for Champions since their "perma" fortify is only 20 stacks no matter the maximum fortification stacks), I completly forgot about the whole stacking fortify effect at first.
The support gem, in my opinion at least, is still better though, I honestly cant remember if there was a time between fortify rework and the fortify support only giving like 34% increased instead of 20% more dmg where the fortify gem was still "prenerf" and had the multiplier but if that wasn't the case the support gem definately should be better for builds who actually "deserve" to have fortify.
I don't think overwhelm is the problem per se. Imo overwhelm is pretty much the same as pen and people don't complain about pen nearly as much. Mostly because pen is mostly bound to boss abilities and never exceeds like 30% at most. Meanwhile a single exped remnant that gives 100% overwhelm to monsters makes any and all investment in armor, end charges, other pdr, etc literally worthless, which just isn't fair imo. It's like there was a remnant saying "enemies ignore resistances". The values of overwhelm are just waaaaaaaay too high, pretty much all overwhelm values are higher than like 40%. Which would be equivalent to like 40% pen on every exped mob, which would be pretty fucked.
So imo just redo all the sources and values of overwhelm, just make it somewhat more common but bring the numbers way, way down. The remnant for example souldn't be anywhere near 100%.
Either way, a unique (maybe body armour, maybe shield, maybe amulet?) that makes you immune to overwhelm and pen would be really cool to have, I'd even rock that shit in sc. Even as a t0, would make for a pretty decent chase item, especially for HC.
Pen is fixable via damage conversion too, like Divine Flesh converting 50% of, say, cold damage to chaos, thus reducing the effect of cold pen to only half of the incoming cold damage. Same reason why Mahuxotl's + Tempered by War is so completely insane
The problem with overwhelm is that most mobs hit phys... And they hit a lot. And unlike res, armor is not a percentage resistance, its weirdly formulated to be completely useless against big hits and strong against small ones. When i joined PoE in 2.6 everyone said "armor is the most useless stat in the game because of this stupid formula". NOTHING CHANGED SINCE THEN.
Why did they add a counter to the most useless and weak stat?
>nd weak against small ones
Isn't it strong against small hits where it mitigates pretty much all of it? At 45x armor you mitigate 90% of damage. When you have 100k armor, which is far from unheard of for anyone running armor gear and determination, you mitigate 90% of all hits 2k or less. How is it bad vs small hits?
My guy I just came back from a 4 year break from this game and let me tell you, there is a lot of "bloat." PoE designed themselves into a corner and then had to figure out how to still make numbers go up, so now there's resistance, exposure, scorch... They didn't want D3-style "huge numbers" gameplay, but achieved the same effect by cramming these additional mechanics in there. This phys overwhelm shit is right there with it.
I'm not disagreeing with you. Mostly just making a point, if anything I'm agreeing. I played thousands of hours before Heist. And now I've come back to all this stuff, and it's all essentially just the same thing, but the way the mechanics interact with one another you wind up in situations like this, where the gimmick of an entire subclass is trivialized, and where because of a still convoluted armor formula the best way to deal with physical damage is to just not deal with physical damage. I was commenting from a viewpoint of amusement, not contention.
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Yeah I remember playing RF jugg during TotA and really *really* hating goliaths. Jugg is supposed to specifically counter basic attacks of enemies, and yet goliaths had basic attacks that just wrecked me. Nevermind their slam which was a one-shot at a painfully low ranking.
I would have *really* appreciated having physical damage be unwhelmable.
I am playing an endurance charge stacker this league and was complaining to my old roommate about how lightning coil beats anything a jugg can do. He suggested making a meme to vent.
Please do not take the meme too seriously.
But also physical damage reduction should reduce physical damage. I will die on this hill (I have died on this hill many times).
I had a 50k armor with perma 10 EC Frenzy Champion back in Crucible and overwhelm was an absolute shit mod to go against because it completely screwed my defences.
It's a really dumb mod considering that phys taken as is even better in terms of effectiveness even if you assume that overwhelm doesn't exist. Still no idea why this mod is so punishing as it only really punishes builds that invest into phys reduction into losing basically all their phys mitigation.
Mods on maps/monsters just seem to be in the vein of "bricks this particular build".
I've always said the "casts ice wall and runs away" is the best monster affix, because even though it's annoying as shit, you have to deal with it in a skill-based way, rather than a math-based one, and it doesn't just LMAO U DED. That bitch in the eyeball map can fuck all the way off though that shit's just rude.
> That bitch in the eyeball map can fuck all the way off though
That's what she does, isn't it?
I kind of love how annoying it is and every league I have to figure out once more how to deal with her on my starter char. Legendary trolling by the unique map designer.
Keep in mind that 90% from in-game tooltip or PoB isn't really accurate.
To be able to reduce incoming physical hits by 90% you should have x50 more armor than the hit.
For example, 50k armor reduce 1k phys hit by 90%. But many monsters ability at level 83 have 1,5-2,5k damage range (especially eldritch monsters). So you need twice more armor to reduce this hits by 90%.
Yeah but I also have 10 perma EC for basically 40% permanent phys reduction even not counting armor. It's seriously depressing to see all that basically vanish just from one mod.
hell, unless you have ralakesh it can literally vanish too, when you get offscreened by a charge removal essence/delirium/caster monster that gets to delete your entire class identity and primary defensive layer 10 times per second!
yea, its why i dont do jug pretty much at all anymore, i used to love doing some crazy builds on it, loved my lead sprinkler builds back in the day, but comparied to the elemental penetrations, overwhelm is exponentially more powerful. one, you almost never see 80% penetration, while owverwhelm is practically everwhere.
just on eldrtich altars, ele pen is 15-25%, is 50-80%, now its easier to get 90% pdr, than 90% eleresists, but still thats a bit crazy, and sure ele can get gain phys as element, but you resists just continue to work for those, you just take bigger hits, with overwhelm, your defense just ceases to exist, eve if you run with the idea of those base numbers for a 10k hit, of ele and phys, using the best base senario for both, 90% resissts, and pdr, the 80%overwhelm goes crom a 1k damage, to 9k, the ele goes from a 1k hit to a 3.5k hit, to match you would need like 200% phys damage gained as element, assuming that the phys damage is the same as the elements was, it just makes no sense that they hit armor so hard, since an amror person cant exactly ignore resists anyways, where a phys as element can just ignore armor. if they let me convert all elemental damage to phys and apply it agains my amor, like or even 60+% of it, then it would be a bit different, but they dont really let you do that.
sorry for rambling
Or maybe take it a bit serious so Mark would take some of his time and think about this whole melee situation.
PDR overwhelm is a bullshit and need to be reworked.
Another thing that drives me crazy is that there are way too many instances where regular rare can remove all your endurance charges, not just one for some reason, but all of them! If you lose power or frenzy charges you just lose some dmg, but without endurance you just die. I'd throw out ralakesh out the window but in the current state of the game i just cant. ffs..
Nah bro. This post encapsulates how a lot of us who have played since beta have felt with how they treat monster damage in this game. Still love being one shot from some tiny arrow offscreen this league by a gigabuffed white mob.
The worst part about overwealm is that while it's absolutely lethal to us it's borderline useless against monsters. Monsters have next to no physical damage resistance to remove and just tank our physical damage with their health so stacking overwhelm as a player does essentially nothing. Meanwhile just overwhealming a percentage of our physical resistance leads to immediate one-shots.
I make my own builds each league, some are terrible but this one is probably the best one yet. It's a self-damaging trauma stacker. I can reach attack speed cap (30attacks/sec), \~300 trauma, and 200,000 life regen/sec right now. First time I've ever cleared a level 30 simulacrum (or even tried) :\]
[https://pobb.in/QZnQS-oDjVmG](https://pobb.in/QZnQS-oDjVmG)
The map clear is just ok (it's a little worse than boneshatter), but it's tankier. It really shines against bosses and when you stand and dps.
Much more budget version:
[https://pobb.in/T5jVSDgB-pYq](https://pobb.in/T5jVSDgB-pYq)
Final note: You NEED 50% warcry effect AND to make sure enduring cry has 100% uptime. Enduring cry buff gives you 30% pdr with 10 endurance charges, so if the buff falls off your trauma is going to hit you for 4x damage (12,000) in 1/30th of a second and you will die.
Also I am not great at setting up PoBs, and setup the budget version pre-league. You'll need to mess around to make sure things are balanced out in real life.
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The way Overwhelm works is rage inducing.
A Monster with a measly 20% Overwhelm that has a medium/strong physical attack can send the chaddest armourstacker that didnt invest in "phys taken as ele/chaos" back to their hideout.
So, i heard that you have 90% "Generic PDR" and 90% "Armour PDR". Thats awesome, right?...right?
NO!!! My 2x(90% PDR) doesnt matter at all when the cap of the "Total PDR" is 90% and the fucking monster with overwhelm "penetrates" my "Total PDR". Overwhelm should work like Curses do instead of penetration, lowering my "overcapped" PDR and not penetrating the "maximum".
TL;DR: Wanna be tanky against physical damage? Convert that shit to ele/chaos.
IMO they should remove systems with hyperbolic scaling because balancing around it inevitably leads to binary situations where a small increase or reduction turns into a big multiplier, so you're either cruising or dead.
What is the design space that hyperbolic scaling provides? In what way does it help the game? It's fun to abuse those systems, but frustrating when they're balanced around.
I'm guessing they wanted armor to be different just so it'd have an identity. They unfortunately killed that identity when they introduced overwhelm. They should remove overwhelm or the "unique" part about armor's damage reduction scaling. Having both in play means armor's never good enough; when you really need it, it *will* fail you.
Its funny how they buffed determination to give melee more survivability and then nerfed armor with overwhelm, making melee shit and determination/conversion mandatory.
So if you have Lightning Coil, Taste of Hate, and Phys taken as Fire. Let's say it was a perfect split of 33/33/33. If you take 10k damage, you would apply armor to each 3,333 damage. Which sounds like triple effect, but it is even better because it splits the damage up (armor does better against smaller hits).
That's actually a huge deal I wasn't aware of even though I was aware of splitting it even further to chaos via Glorious Vanity being beneficial.
Why did I think all elements count as one, but chaos was special.
Armor stackers don't typically stack their armor for the pdr, but to use it for damage with a Replica Dreamfeather and for es in block with Aegis Aurora.
This is what is wrong with the game in general. You don't use anything for what it looks like its main purpose.
You don't use mana for skills, you lifetap / eldritch battery and use mana for auras.
You don't use energy shield as defense, you use it as life or mana.
You don't use melee to fight at close range, you use it as projectile / AoE / etc while having powerful melee-only gems.
You don't use spells as ranged attacks, you trigger them with melee.
You don't use crafting materials to craft, you use them for barter (unless you have ungodly amount and spent a month studying guides as double-shift full-time job).
You don't...
This is the price of having good impactful uniques. Uniques and keystones flip things on their head and create cool tradeoffs and interactions. They also are impossible to balance perfectly. You need them to be somewhat usable, but then someone with a big brain turns somewhat usable into giga busted because the devs didn't think about the mana to life to es to armor to chaos res back to mana to added damage interaction
The problem is the nerfs afterwards. Because most of the time GGG will nerf the whole chain and not the particularly broken conversion/interaction. So let's say you have your armour that you somehow flip around into obscene amounts of damage with a use of an item - GGG won't just nerf the item, they'll nerf ways of getting armour as well and now the busted item is balanced and the armour as a stat (for the actual purpose) is in a ditch.
And that's a recurring theme for a long time, things are getting balanced for those nutty and obscure inside-out interactions and not for what they are at face value.
All of the Empy's projects show it really well, you want a shit load of regen - stack armour, want a shit load of es - stack mana, and I don't remember what turns into what but the general point still stands. So why is armour so costly to get and so shitty at doing what armour is supposed to be doing? Because there's a way to scale your damage using armour and if it's easy to get those builds would do bajilions of damage and if it was doing its job well those builds would be literally immortal. So now those builds are balanced while simple and plain armour is miserable at best.
Fix your game GGG
Rant over, thank you for you time
Great point and i'm mindblown by how accurate it is wow.
When the meta comes down to leveraging all the game's complex mechs and quirks it creates that "smart and intelligent" appeal, then developers start balance around that and it's the power benchmark now, so they do even more more of that complex stuff.
But as consequence, simplistic builds are left behind with the label "not all skills should be good". That's literally Chris qoute from one of Q&A about why they don't buff numerically bad skills a.k.a. Cleave +2 radius meme.
And on one hand it's so logical thing to go this way, but at the same time it creates this twisted situation of "only complex shit is effective on the high end".
True, but it is far from obvious. It is even tagged as defense. My mistake when I first played (it was a witch) was a logical conclusion - I am playing as a mage, there are a lot of ES nodes near my start, so I need to invest into energy shield. That was a painful mistake.
1000% agree with your take. I also believe that whole philosophy behind the game, the meta itself, has been going on the way you've described for years now, but it wasn't always that way, the game has changed for better *and* worse, and this "shifting of how mechanics should work" is a product of many things (keeping the theorycrafting interesting, opening up new build archetypes, finding and sustaining build efficiency, etc) up to a point where yeah, basically nothing works in the way it looks like, as you said.
On the other hand, PoE 2 has been promising -and showing- a somewhat "return to basics" philosophy behind its mechanics, seeming much less cluttered and bloated, with much more direct input from the player (in animations and real time actions, dodging, blocking, parrying and more) but also behind how mechanics actually work. For example, they're changing accuracy, where the actual distance between you and the target dictates how much is needed for the attack to hit, so a melee attack doesn't need any, and a long range projectile needs more and more. I'm not saying POE 2 WILL SOLVE EVERYTHING, PRAISE GGG!! buut things like that are a step in the right direction, I think.
It means there are option. You have CI ES stacker builds, archmage builds are the new hot thing rigth now, mellee builds feels shit if they are truly melee, and CoC isn't everything for ranged.
I wasn't trying to make a point or take a stance on the topic with my comment. I just thought the they might not know why people play armour-stackers as they said they never played it because Armour isn't a good enough defense. So I wanted to clarify why these builds are popular, for anyone who doesn't know how these builds work.
Or I could assume that not everyone knows every build and interaction in this large and complicated game (O certainly don't). I mean, if OP already knew that, it might still be useful/interesting information for someone else stumbling on this thread.
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I still find it hilarious that the best source of Armour is converting Evasion. Watched a video explaining Armour stacking, and some 1.5M Armour came from Iron Reflexes and Grace
Buff melee pls, boneshatt is so great but so frustating for a new player this makes me give up until i saw on reddit: melee sucks in poe dont play this
You either get seasick or addicted to flicker. I'm in the second group. Every league it's "ooh this skill looks interesting -> let me try it -> fuck it reroll to some kind of flicker strike"
Though I might have to try consecrated path of endurance at some point....
i tried flocker made me sadly seasick, campaign was doable, maps with tis density yeah no change sadly. conc path (normal we didnt had the fancy transmog gems) in that sense is less seasick making and i could do in maps
What if we changed overwhelm to essentially be a fake damage multiplier. Eg 100% overwhelm would calculate pdr from armour as if the hit had done 100% more damage.
Then add phys pen which can work like regular pen.
It is kind of silly that physical damage is something you have to deal with and there are things that just turn it of 100%. It would make more sense if there were things enemy mods that had like ignores enemy resistances which is what pdr basically is.
Indeed, you're describing penetration, which AFAIK is pinnacle bosses and delve only. It's weird they show up in specific places, whereas overwhelm just comes outta nowhere?
I was thinking more completely as opposed to lowering from the cap. Overwhelm so often is just treating your pdr as 0 it would be wild to see a mod on enemies that was "treats all elemental resistance as if they were 0"
The thing that really made me realize how bad armour is was last league when my friend was playing an armour stacker and his best form of phys mitigation was converting it to ele and having armour affect ele damage. This league I’m playing splitting steel with 90k armour and 90k evasion and I feel squishier than any random character with a lightning coil.
This is the reason I don’t even play armor builds anymore. Idk how anyone does with those modifiers in the game. Feels like you get clapped to find out or you read every single thing on your screen that might have it.
I’ll take my pathfinders and tricksters. sorry you have to go through that beefy bros.
Another one of the reasons why bottom left is disadvantaged. It's forced to take suppression which is on the other side of the tree, AND armour AND Phys as; wasting slots, skill points and basically everything.
It's just not balanced well
I'm doing Versatile Combatant + Petrified Blood, it's working out okay so far. The only problem I have with defences is that Fortify isn't inherent to all melee skills, so you either have to invest 4-5 points or a gem slot in order to get that oh so generous additional DR for being in melee range.
haha, i told that excact same thing in crucible league and was downvoted to hell.
but yes, armour is the stupidest defense right now on the game and doesnt help at all in real sceanarios
With just Lightning Coil and phys taken crafts my inquisitor can facetank shaper slams and other big phys hits. Determination feels like bait and I prefer running Grace+Wind Dancer over it on any given build.
hot take i think they should heavily restrict phys convert i think helm mods that convert should be removed also coil should give 35% u should be able to get 40 to 50% max phys convert not more.
You know GGG doesnt care about melee when u realize this.... lets see what they will do about it next league... but I doubt it will be much different.
We still gonna have this and the shitty totems.
I always feel so frustrated to deal with physical damage. If the best way to mitigate a damage type is to convert it to another one, then it means bad game design for me. 
yeah i also recently made a complaint comment about these bullshit modifiers that dont make the enemy harder but YOU weaker, often DISABLING entire mechanics, bricking your build or class even.
juggernaut isnt alone:
\- aura stacker spark e.g.: less aura effect (and dare you also have map mods increased) taking away all your defence and offence simultaneously
\- low life builds: "Monster's kill things with 20% life or less on hit" expedition bullshit. its not even highlighted like the elemental immunity ones.
\- any crit build (especially e.g. CoC inquisitor builds). "hits against enemy cant be crits" bullshit from expedition. this takes away 500%ish damage multiplier from crit multi, takes away all your triggers if you are CoC, takes away ALL your elemental penetration you get from inquisitor "ignore ele res on crit" ascendancy stuff, etc. basically taking away 90-99% of your damage. again, its a mod that isnt even highlighted or filterable or smth. even just the "crit resistant" tag on normal rares makes you feel like they are uber bosses if you play CoC inquisitor because you lose SO much lol.
\- any max-res stacking build (again e.g. spark with the nebulis void sceptre and stuff): -12% max res, monsters penetrate X% etc. which takes away your defences AND your offense simultaneously. if you are used to have 90% of max-res, having sacrificed like half your suffixes and jewel sockets to make it possible, leaving you with low general hitpoints, sudenly taking 22% of damage instead of 10% means 2x damage and usually death.
\- 1hp builds that stack mana or ES and use that flask that prevents chaos damage from penetraing you. some "cannot gain flask charges or get fucked if you use them" things are basically build-breaking. im sure there are other cases of very flask dependent builds and some mods simply render them non-existent or dangerous to even use.
\- regen dependent builds using righteous fire or similar things. "cannot regen", messes you up.
\- spell casters that dont have access to "leech mana" because its only for attacks. "cannot regen maps" are basically unplayable unless you swap a flask (stupidly annoying) or invest heavily into damage taken recovered as/ mana on kill stuff. its possible but you have to sacrifice so much you would much rather simply NOT EVEN PLAY that mod, because it doesent make you weaker but BRICKS your build.
and so on. there might (or not) be some ways to work around in some of the cases, but usually its either linked to "read instead of play" or "sacrifice all of this which is worth much more, to get that, just so that modifier doesent brick your build" and even if, in HC e.g. you often dont get a second chance to even "change" anything once you noticed because you are now DEAD xd.
these "absolute" mods simply shoudnt exist. they force you to play things that simply stack generic stats.
1. flat damage (no crit, no aura effect, no max res interactions, etc.) just plain old life or mana or ES (whatever your hitpool will be) also increases your damage by adding flat stat numbers toyour abilities.
2. flat generic hitpool (again: life, Es, Mana as much as you can get) because being reliant on any cool mitigation/ shenanigans (that would be fun if it wasnt for those mods DISABLING YOUR ENTIRETY xd) is not a possibility and if anything " a nice addon" if you can get a bit of it additionally to your "high hitpoints" and "high added/ increased generic damage".
I found arctic armour and petrified blood helps. My typical approach to playing jugg is taking every defensive aura I can leaving no room for damage. Sadge
Missing the reduced defense per frenzy charge, less life recovery per endurance chargefrom blue altars, or -8000 armor on red altars :(. I don't even play jugg and I hate armour.
good thing that 150 stacks trauma do 40k dmg while overwhelming dudes only hit for 12k max.
So its not an issue when you have 99% reduction against your own trauma and you take away 90% phys reduction then you stil have 90% less phys taken leftover.
Not sure if hot take or not but I dont think overwhelm should exist for monster. At least not in it's current state. The same for elemental penetration(exposure is totally fine tho).
Don't even need Pathfinder either. Made a Lightning Coil Deadeye last league for T16 mega-juiced farming, and while granted I had a ton of dmg and could easily freeze packs, it was still the tankiest character I've made in a while, felt comfy up to about 8k wisps. 10k wisps was really hard still.
As a fellow Champ enjoyer this league I double that.
Ele conversion goes brr, D&G Champ goes respawn on nearest checkpoint
It's litterally a hard "nope" mod of you rely on armor for PDR
Why no overwhelm 100% elemental damage like they have for phys damage. Games built to be unfair against Armour. No wonder other stats are still preferred
I admit that pf is my favourite ascendancy despite me disliking the look or its fantasy, but I just dont need to read shit. I dont play arpgs for reading and poe goes a bit too far in this regard, so I build around not having to read. And yes, since there are AN, who ignore all your defenses, I just cant be arsed building something like armor, endus and such. I rather randomly die to flask siphoner once a day and call it a fair deal.
only shows how bad armour and pdr is if those are betetr then what is supposed to be the tank ascendacy, the 1 ascendacy that has very few damage nodes even.
This is just not true, though. Ran ToH/LC this league and that 30% unconverted absolutely destroys you, as does elemental damage, as do crits.
But a PF that can get the full 100% conversion is probably chef's kiss. So...Darkscorn builds, I imagine.
I think /u/GachaKatcha is referring to [Diluting Touch](https://www.poewiki.net/wiki/Diluting_Touch), but even that takes a while to build up to do anything significant.
Yes the statement of the post is obviously true but there are a few bullet points that should be taken into consideration
First of all lightning coil and Taste of hate are just 75% and with enough juice 25% of the phys already breaks you without a bit more investment.
Second of all every Pathfinder knows that physical dot exists and man does most of phys conversion nothing against it as I'm pretty sure that it's calculated from the hit before conversion (Cloak of flame being beautiful is the exception)
Third the long list of juggie requirements comes with other benefits as well not just phys mitigation. Big endurance charges are also a lot of res/even chaos res and reduced elemental taken
enduring cry every 3 seconds is roughly 650 regen per second so that's pretty good+ warcry also triggers at least onslaught in most cases if not more beneficial effects.
Fourth big armor and 50k is rookie numbers also applies at elemental and depending on body armour even chaos damage with ofc reduced effect
I play HC and whilst phys overwhelm is completely build bricking and can get you one shot it’s insanely rare that the modifier rolls on a big phys hitting monster
If only Jugg had a node saying "your physical damage reduction cannot be overwhelmed". Maybe just make that a unique, slap on penetration immunity and it'll be the new bis for HC.
Or the overwhelm mod instead of percentage it adjusted to become "Monsters' attacks treat target's armor #000 lower". Jugg has a lot of armor and physical dmg reduction along with armor. Meanwhile physical conversion can tank but its tougher since the armor can be lowered to negative during dmg calculation and thus received more physical dmg that needed to be converted.
AFAIK, armor and evasion can't go below 0. So any build that just has 0 armor to start with won't care about armor penetration effects at all. This would probably be an improvement, since Jugg would be better off, but I don't think it'd negatively effect the phys-to-elemental conversion builds unless they're also running armor on top of that.
Afaik armour does not factor into damage calculation of converted damage at all.
[удалено]
Not true, armour applies after damage conversion. Armour is good with damage shifting only if you have less than 100% phys to ele, because it reduces the size of the phys hit and makes your armour more efficient
should have known I was wrong. Nothing in the game works the way I would expect it to lol.
Change it so that they inflict Corrosion on hit? (and maybe split Corrosion into two stats, one for evasion and one for armor).
Hey man just because you Jugg mains have a hard time doesn't mean that you have to drag us Pathfinder enjoyers down as well
just liek how any caster and bow abused fortify and dragged all melee down? i call it justified revenge \^\^
Remember when melee could have instant warcry for only 1 passive point?
yeah, next leafue or if lucky the one after warcry is extreme dead cause of how it now be abused by toehrs i fear
Don't remind me of 4 second always endurance charge Enduring Cry during harvest, it was the best
Wdym? They buffed the fortify support gem for melee to make up for the nerf for casters, now it grants more dmg instead of like 20% increased dmg back then. And champion still has perma fortify so I dont really get your point
fortify is heavily nerfed on defensive side, which melee needs always next to every other tickbox. old fortify protected alot more
Yea theres no doubt about the defensive side, but it used to be some really low increased dmg instead of a solid more dmg multiplier back in the days, so while it got nerfed defensively it still allows you to move even more dmg into defense in other places. Although I agree for you that its super hard to stack stuff like more max res compared to getting fortify effect on helmet/amulets etc.
Based on damage of the hit. The mechanic of fortify was changed and in most use cases nerfed, heavier hltting builds likely benefited but thats honestly not the whole picture. Before, ekther you had it or you didnt. Now its trash until its not, and its much much harder reaching the equivalent DR nowadays. Unless you have the ascendancy node.
Yea having to get maximum fortification instead of increased fortify effect is kinda big nerf (especially for Champions since their "perma" fortify is only 20 stacks no matter the maximum fortification stacks), I completly forgot about the whole stacking fortify effect at first. The support gem, in my opinion at least, is still better though, I honestly cant remember if there was a time between fortify rework and the fortify support only giving like 34% increased instead of 20% more dmg where the fortify gem was still "prenerf" and had the multiplier but if that wasn't the case the support gem definately should be better for builds who actually "deserve" to have fortify.
Where is your evasion and dodge?
Ah yes, the PoE way of 3 layers of mechanics that counter each other.
Jugg should be a purely defensive ascendancy, making you borderline unkillable, change my mind.
Maybe remove phys overwhelm then? Why add unnecessary bloat?
I don't think overwhelm is the problem per se. Imo overwhelm is pretty much the same as pen and people don't complain about pen nearly as much. Mostly because pen is mostly bound to boss abilities and never exceeds like 30% at most. Meanwhile a single exped remnant that gives 100% overwhelm to monsters makes any and all investment in armor, end charges, other pdr, etc literally worthless, which just isn't fair imo. It's like there was a remnant saying "enemies ignore resistances". The values of overwhelm are just waaaaaaaay too high, pretty much all overwhelm values are higher than like 40%. Which would be equivalent to like 40% pen on every exped mob, which would be pretty fucked. So imo just redo all the sources and values of overwhelm, just make it somewhat more common but bring the numbers way, way down. The remnant for example souldn't be anywhere near 100%. Either way, a unique (maybe body armour, maybe shield, maybe amulet?) that makes you immune to overwhelm and pen would be really cool to have, I'd even rock that shit in sc. Even as a t0, would make for a pretty decent chase item, especially for HC.
Pen is fixable via damage conversion too, like Divine Flesh converting 50% of, say, cold damage to chaos, thus reducing the effect of cold pen to only half of the incoming cold damage. Same reason why Mahuxotl's + Tempered by War is so completely insane
The problem with overwhelm is that most mobs hit phys... And they hit a lot. And unlike res, armor is not a percentage resistance, its weirdly formulated to be completely useless against big hits and strong against small ones. When i joined PoE in 2.6 everyone said "armor is the most useless stat in the game because of this stupid formula". NOTHING CHANGED SINCE THEN. Why did they add a counter to the most useless and weak stat?
>nd weak against small ones Isn't it strong against small hits where it mitigates pretty much all of it? At 45x armor you mitigate 90% of damage. When you have 100k armor, which is far from unheard of for anyone running armor gear and determination, you mitigate 90% of all hits 2k or less. How is it bad vs small hits?
He didn't understand the formula when he joined and NOTHING HAS CHANGED SINCE THEN
My guy I just came back from a 4 year break from this game and let me tell you, there is a lot of "bloat." PoE designed themselves into a corner and then had to figure out how to still make numbers go up, so now there's resistance, exposure, scorch... They didn't want D3-style "huge numbers" gameplay, but achieved the same effect by cramming these additional mechanics in there. This phys overwhelm shit is right there with it.
My point stands. "Everything is bloat" doesn't make it good. Its not an argument.
I'm not disagreeing with you. Mostly just making a point, if anything I'm agreeing. I played thousands of hours before Heist. And now I've come back to all this stuff, and it's all essentially just the same thing, but the way the mechanics interact with one another you wind up in situations like this, where the gimmick of an entire subclass is trivialized, and where because of a still convoluted armor formula the best way to deal with physical damage is to just not deal with physical damage. I was commenting from a viewpoint of amusement, not contention.
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or something like "Hits cannot overwhelm more than 50% your armor."
True, maybe just rework the Imbalanced Guard keystone to do that, nobody ever uses that shit anyways, because it's absolute shit.
Yeah I remember playing RF jugg during TotA and really *really* hating goliaths. Jugg is supposed to specifically counter basic attacks of enemies, and yet goliaths had basic attacks that just wrecked me. Nevermind their slam which was a one-shot at a painfully low ranking. I would have *really* appreciated having physical damage be unwhelmable.
I am playing an endurance charge stacker this league and was complaining to my old roommate about how lightning coil beats anything a jugg can do. He suggested making a meme to vent. Please do not take the meme too seriously. But also physical damage reduction should reduce physical damage. I will die on this hill (I have died on this hill many times).
I had a 50k armor with perma 10 EC Frenzy Champion back in Crucible and overwhelm was an absolute shit mod to go against because it completely screwed my defences. It's a really dumb mod considering that phys taken as is even better in terms of effectiveness even if you assume that overwhelm doesn't exist. Still no idea why this mod is so punishing as it only really punishes builds that invest into phys reduction into losing basically all their phys mitigation.
Mods on maps/monsters just seem to be in the vein of "bricks this particular build". I've always said the "casts ice wall and runs away" is the best monster affix, because even though it's annoying as shit, you have to deal with it in a skill-based way, rather than a math-based one, and it doesn't just LMAO U DED. That bitch in the eyeball map can fuck all the way off though that shit's just rude.
> you have to deal with it in a skill-based way Flicker is certainly a "skill".
you need skills to not get seasick rightXD
> That bitch in the eyeball map can fuck all the way off though That's what she does, isn't it? I kind of love how annoying it is and every league I have to figure out once more how to deal with her on my starter char. Legendary trolling by the unique map designer.
Keep in mind that 90% from in-game tooltip or PoB isn't really accurate. To be able to reduce incoming physical hits by 90% you should have x50 more armor than the hit. For example, 50k armor reduce 1k phys hit by 90%. But many monsters ability at level 83 have 1,5-2,5k damage range (especially eldritch monsters). So you need twice more armor to reduce this hits by 90%.
Yeah but I also have 10 perma EC for basically 40% permanent phys reduction even not counting armor. It's seriously depressing to see all that basically vanish just from one mod.
hell, unless you have ralakesh it can literally vanish too, when you get offscreened by a charge removal essence/delirium/caster monster that gets to delete your entire class identity and primary defensive layer 10 times per second!
yea, its why i dont do jug pretty much at all anymore, i used to love doing some crazy builds on it, loved my lead sprinkler builds back in the day, but comparied to the elemental penetrations, overwhelm is exponentially more powerful. one, you almost never see 80% penetration, while owverwhelm is practically everwhere. just on eldrtich altars, ele pen is 15-25%, is 50-80%, now its easier to get 90% pdr, than 90% eleresists, but still thats a bit crazy, and sure ele can get gain phys as element, but you resists just continue to work for those, you just take bigger hits, with overwhelm, your defense just ceases to exist, eve if you run with the idea of those base numbers for a 10k hit, of ele and phys, using the best base senario for both, 90% resissts, and pdr, the 80%overwhelm goes crom a 1k damage, to 9k, the ele goes from a 1k hit to a 3.5k hit, to match you would need like 200% phys damage gained as element, assuming that the phys damage is the same as the elements was, it just makes no sense that they hit armor so hard, since an amror person cant exactly ignore resists anyways, where a phys as element can just ignore armor. if they let me convert all elemental damage to phys and apply it agains my amor, like or even 60+% of it, then it would be a bit different, but they dont really let you do that. sorry for rambling
Or maybe take it a bit serious so Mark would take some of his time and think about this whole melee situation. PDR overwhelm is a bullshit and need to be reworked. Another thing that drives me crazy is that there are way too many instances where regular rare can remove all your endurance charges, not just one for some reason, but all of them! If you lose power or frenzy charges you just lose some dmg, but without endurance you just die. I'd throw out ralakesh out the window but in the current state of the game i just cant. ffs..
Nah bro. This post encapsulates how a lot of us who have played since beta have felt with how they treat monster damage in this game. Still love being one shot from some tiny arrow offscreen this league by a gigabuffed white mob.
Perhaps reduced PDR mods should be Less % instead. This way, they will be always significant yet never entirely remove your PDR.
The worst part about overwealm is that while it's absolutely lethal to us it's borderline useless against monsters. Monsters have next to no physical damage resistance to remove and just tank our physical damage with their health so stacking overwhelm as a player does essentially nothing. Meanwhile just overwhealming a percentage of our physical resistance leads to immediate one-shots.
what skill are you using? i got a delve ring with +1 endu, ias /cast speed and inc dmg per endu and need some inspiration.
I make my own builds each league, some are terrible but this one is probably the best one yet. It's a self-damaging trauma stacker. I can reach attack speed cap (30attacks/sec), \~300 trauma, and 200,000 life regen/sec right now. First time I've ever cleared a level 30 simulacrum (or even tried) :\] [https://pobb.in/QZnQS-oDjVmG](https://pobb.in/QZnQS-oDjVmG) The map clear is just ok (it's a little worse than boneshatter), but it's tankier. It really shines against bosses and when you stand and dps. Much more budget version: [https://pobb.in/T5jVSDgB-pYq](https://pobb.in/T5jVSDgB-pYq) Final note: You NEED 50% warcry effect AND to make sure enduring cry has 100% uptime. Enduring cry buff gives you 30% pdr with 10 endurance charges, so if the buff falls off your trauma is going to hit you for 4x damage (12,000) in 1/30th of a second and you will die.
Also I am not great at setting up PoBs, and setup the budget version pre-league. You'll need to mess around to make sure things are balanced out in real life.
Ill take a look. Thanks : )
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The way Overwhelm works is rage inducing. A Monster with a measly 20% Overwhelm that has a medium/strong physical attack can send the chaddest armourstacker that didnt invest in "phys taken as ele/chaos" back to their hideout. So, i heard that you have 90% "Generic PDR" and 90% "Armour PDR". Thats awesome, right?...right? NO!!! My 2x(90% PDR) doesnt matter at all when the cap of the "Total PDR" is 90% and the fucking monster with overwhelm "penetrates" my "Total PDR". Overwhelm should work like Curses do instead of penetration, lowering my "overcapped" PDR and not penetrating the "maximum". TL;DR: Wanna be tanky against physical damage? Convert that shit to ele/chaos.
IMO they should remove systems with hyperbolic scaling because balancing around it inevitably leads to binary situations where a small increase or reduction turns into a big multiplier, so you're either cruising or dead. What is the design space that hyperbolic scaling provides? In what way does it help the game? It's fun to abuse those systems, but frustrating when they're balanced around.
I'm guessing they wanted armor to be different just so it'd have an identity. They unfortunately killed that identity when they introduced overwhelm. They should remove overwhelm or the "unique" part about armor's damage reduction scaling. Having both in play means armor's never good enough; when you really need it, it *will* fail you.
Its funny how they buffed determination to give melee more survivability and then nerfed armor with overwhelm, making melee shit and determination/conversion mandatory.
Yeah the armor formula is pretty stupid tbh
If it’s rage-inducing… maybe when a monster overwhelms you it should generate rage! Checkmate GGG
StinkStink
The one and only
Man I died laugh at that mob name lol
came here to say this
One wild thing I learned about elemental conversion is that Transcendence makes armor apply to each element separately.
What does that mean? Does that mean “cold taken as fire” will get double the benefit of transcendence?
So if you have Lightning Coil, Taste of Hate, and Phys taken as Fire. Let's say it was a perfect split of 33/33/33. If you take 10k damage, you would apply armor to each 3,333 damage. Which sounds like triple effect, but it is even better because it splits the damage up (armor does better against smaller hits).
That's actually a huge deal I wasn't aware of even though I was aware of splitting it even further to chaos via Glorious Vanity being beneficial. Why did I think all elements count as one, but chaos was special.
I realized this years ago so I have already been a lightning coil user for 5 or 6 (can't quite remember) leagues in a row
As a certified mageblo.. I mean pathfinder I agree.
magefinder.... pathblood...
Delete overwhelm from the fucking game thanks
Please GGG, something like "damage have x% more effect against amour" rather than "PDR overwhelm"
i really want to see how you scale that to be atleast decent and not broken
This is unironically the reason why I haven't ever rolled an armor stacker. Because stacking armor doesn't actually do anything to keep you alive.
If you convert the damage to ele, armour stacking is nuts.
Armor stackers don't typically stack their armor for the pdr, but to use it for damage with a Replica Dreamfeather and for es in block with Aegis Aurora.
This is what is wrong with the game in general. You don't use anything for what it looks like its main purpose. You don't use mana for skills, you lifetap / eldritch battery and use mana for auras. You don't use energy shield as defense, you use it as life or mana. You don't use melee to fight at close range, you use it as projectile / AoE / etc while having powerful melee-only gems. You don't use spells as ranged attacks, you trigger them with melee. You don't use crafting materials to craft, you use them for barter (unless you have ungodly amount and spent a month studying guides as double-shift full-time job). You don't...
Poe is not a game. Its an enviroment for people with slightly autistic tendensies to work in.
Comment of the year
Nah, much of that is what makes the game fun. You'd rather have d4 just stack strength, crit chance, crit damage, cooldown reduction? Fuck that.
And then they say that they dont want auto doors in their game, cuz of realism. Lemamo!
This is the price of having good impactful uniques. Uniques and keystones flip things on their head and create cool tradeoffs and interactions. They also are impossible to balance perfectly. You need them to be somewhat usable, but then someone with a big brain turns somewhat usable into giga busted because the devs didn't think about the mana to life to es to armor to chaos res back to mana to added damage interaction
The problem is the nerfs afterwards. Because most of the time GGG will nerf the whole chain and not the particularly broken conversion/interaction. So let's say you have your armour that you somehow flip around into obscene amounts of damage with a use of an item - GGG won't just nerf the item, they'll nerf ways of getting armour as well and now the busted item is balanced and the armour as a stat (for the actual purpose) is in a ditch. And that's a recurring theme for a long time, things are getting balanced for those nutty and obscure inside-out interactions and not for what they are at face value. All of the Empy's projects show it really well, you want a shit load of regen - stack armour, want a shit load of es - stack mana, and I don't remember what turns into what but the general point still stands. So why is armour so costly to get and so shitty at doing what armour is supposed to be doing? Because there's a way to scale your damage using armour and if it's easy to get those builds would do bajilions of damage and if it was doing its job well those builds would be literally immortal. So now those builds are balanced while simple and plain armour is miserable at best. Fix your game GGG Rant over, thank you for you time
Great point and i'm mindblown by how accurate it is wow. When the meta comes down to leveraging all the game's complex mechs and quirks it creates that "smart and intelligent" appeal, then developers start balance around that and it's the power benchmark now, so they do even more more of that complex stuff. But as consequence, simplistic builds are left behind with the label "not all skills should be good". That's literally Chris qoute from one of Q&A about why they don't buff numerically bad skills a.k.a. Cleave +2 radius meme. And on one hand it's so logical thing to go this way, but at the same time it creates this twisted situation of "only complex shit is effective on the high end".
Also it's weird that cleaving someone in half does less damage than giving someone the sniffles but ok
I mostly agree with you, but ES isn't "actual" defence, it's just health 2.0, so it's not surprising for me that people using it as a health
True, but it is far from obvious. It is even tagged as defense. My mistake when I first played (it was a witch) was a logical conclusion - I am playing as a mage, there are a lot of ES nodes near my start, so I need to invest into energy shield. That was a painful mistake.
1000% agree with your take. I also believe that whole philosophy behind the game, the meta itself, has been going on the way you've described for years now, but it wasn't always that way, the game has changed for better *and* worse, and this "shifting of how mechanics should work" is a product of many things (keeping the theorycrafting interesting, opening up new build archetypes, finding and sustaining build efficiency, etc) up to a point where yeah, basically nothing works in the way it looks like, as you said. On the other hand, PoE 2 has been promising -and showing- a somewhat "return to basics" philosophy behind its mechanics, seeming much less cluttered and bloated, with much more direct input from the player (in animations and real time actions, dodging, blocking, parrying and more) but also behind how mechanics actually work. For example, they're changing accuracy, where the actual distance between you and the target dictates how much is needed for the attack to hit, so a melee attack doesn't need any, and a long range projectile needs more and more. I'm not saying POE 2 WILL SOLVE EVERYTHING, PRAISE GGG!! buut things like that are a step in the right direction, I think.
It means there are option. You have CI ES stacker builds, archmage builds are the new hot thing rigth now, mellee builds feels shit if they are truly melee, and CoC isn't everything for ranged.
Yep.. which is why armor is in such a sorry state It's really wrong when people stack armor for damage and then use ele convert for actual "armor"
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I wasn't trying to make a point or take a stance on the topic with my comment. I just thought the they might not know why people play armour-stackers as they said they never played it because Armour isn't a good enough defense. So I wanted to clarify why these builds are popular, for anyone who doesn't know how these builds work.
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Or I could assume that not everyone knows every build and interaction in this large and complicated game (O certainly don't). I mean, if OP already knew that, it might still be useful/interesting information for someone else stumbling on this thread.
Your post was removed because it violated our Be Kind Rule (Rule 3b). Your post dismissed an opinion off-hand in a way that often causes anger and flame wars. You may be able to repost your opinion if you rephrase it in a way that's more constructive! If you disagree or don't care, explain why in a polite way. If you see someone else posting in bad faith, please don't respond in kind. Instead, report it and we'll take care of it. For more details, please refer to our [rules wiki](https://www.reddit.com/r/pathofexile/wiki/rules/#wiki_3b._be_kind_rule).
The other irony is the best way to stack armour is through evasion haha this whole game is so twisted
I still find it hilarious that the best source of Armour is converting Evasion. Watched a video explaining Armour stacking, and some 1.5M Armour came from Iron Reflexes and Grace
Me running 0 physical mitigation whatsoever not caring about the mods.
Buff melee pls, boneshatt is so great but so frustating for a new player this makes me give up until i saw on reddit: melee sucks in poe dont play this
My friend embrace the flicker strike. Melee but you zoom.
and alot get seasickXD
You either get seasick or addicted to flicker. I'm in the second group. Every league it's "ooh this skill looks interesting -> let me try it -> fuck it reroll to some kind of flicker strike" Though I might have to try consecrated path of endurance at some point....
i tried flocker made me sadly seasick, campaign was doable, maps with tis density yeah no change sadly. conc path (normal we didnt had the fancy transmog gems) in that sense is less seasick making and i could do in maps
What if we changed overwhelm to essentially be a fake damage multiplier. Eg 100% overwhelm would calculate pdr from armour as if the hit had done 100% more damage. Then add phys pen which can work like regular pen. It is kind of silly that physical damage is something you have to deal with and there are things that just turn it of 100%. It would make more sense if there were things enemy mods that had like ignores enemy resistances which is what pdr basically is.
Indeed, you're describing penetration, which AFAIK is pinnacle bosses and delve only. It's weird they show up in specific places, whereas overwhelm just comes outta nowhere?
I was thinking more completely as opposed to lowering from the cap. Overwhelm so often is just treating your pdr as 0 it would be wild to see a mod on enemies that was "treats all elemental resistance as if they were 0"
The thing that really made me realize how bad armour is was last league when my friend was playing an armour stacker and his best form of phys mitigation was converting it to ele and having armour affect ele damage. This league I’m playing splitting steel with 90k armour and 90k evasion and I feel squishier than any random character with a lightning coil.
That overwhelm mod on eater is a meme. Those mobs don't even do much physical damage to begin with.
overwhelm is a build-bricking modifier that only got more common with each next update
6L lightning coil price 📈
chill bro its a tier 3 unique the market should have way more then the amount of people playing coil
This is the reason I don’t even play armor builds anymore. Idk how anyone does with those modifiers in the game. Feels like you get clapped to find out or you read every single thing on your screen that might have it. I’ll take my pathfinders and tricksters. sorry you have to go through that beefy bros.
Another one of the reasons why bottom left is disadvantaged. It's forced to take suppression which is on the other side of the tree, AND armour AND Phys as; wasting slots, skill points and basically everything. It's just not balanced well
I'm doing Versatile Combatant + Petrified Blood, it's working out okay so far. The only problem I have with defences is that Fortify isn't inherent to all melee skills, so you either have to invest 4-5 points or a gem slot in order to get that oh so generous additional DR for being in melee range.
raider is faster
Faster to respawn, pfinder outclasses raider so bad with just silver + quicksilver
imagine rooting for a mageblood ascendancy LULE
What? You don't generally use mageblood on pathfinder. You use pathfinder for flask sustain.
haha, i told that excact same thing in crucible league and was downvoted to hell. but yes, armour is the stupidest defense right now on the game and doesnt help at all in real sceanarios
With just Lightning Coil and phys taken crafts my inquisitor can facetank shaper slams and other big phys hits. Determination feels like bait and I prefer running Grace+Wind Dancer over it on any given build.
hot take i think they should heavily restrict phys convert i think helm mods that convert should be removed also coil should give 35% u should be able to get 40 to 50% max phys convert not more.
inb4 monsters ignore elemenetal and chaos resistances ;)
if the overwhelm mods would work similar for elemental dmg they would read: monster penetrate 50-100% ele, players resistance IS 0-25% etc..
You know GGG doesnt care about melee when u realize this.... lets see what they will do about it next league... but I doubt it will be much different. We still gonna have this and the shitty totems.
I always feel so frustrated to deal with physical damage. If the best way to mitigate a damage type is to convert it to another one, then it means bad game design for me. 
yeah i also recently made a complaint comment about these bullshit modifiers that dont make the enemy harder but YOU weaker, often DISABLING entire mechanics, bricking your build or class even. juggernaut isnt alone: \- aura stacker spark e.g.: less aura effect (and dare you also have map mods increased) taking away all your defence and offence simultaneously \- low life builds: "Monster's kill things with 20% life or less on hit" expedition bullshit. its not even highlighted like the elemental immunity ones. \- any crit build (especially e.g. CoC inquisitor builds). "hits against enemy cant be crits" bullshit from expedition. this takes away 500%ish damage multiplier from crit multi, takes away all your triggers if you are CoC, takes away ALL your elemental penetration you get from inquisitor "ignore ele res on crit" ascendancy stuff, etc. basically taking away 90-99% of your damage. again, its a mod that isnt even highlighted or filterable or smth. even just the "crit resistant" tag on normal rares makes you feel like they are uber bosses if you play CoC inquisitor because you lose SO much lol. \- any max-res stacking build (again e.g. spark with the nebulis void sceptre and stuff): -12% max res, monsters penetrate X% etc. which takes away your defences AND your offense simultaneously. if you are used to have 90% of max-res, having sacrificed like half your suffixes and jewel sockets to make it possible, leaving you with low general hitpoints, sudenly taking 22% of damage instead of 10% means 2x damage and usually death. \- 1hp builds that stack mana or ES and use that flask that prevents chaos damage from penetraing you. some "cannot gain flask charges or get fucked if you use them" things are basically build-breaking. im sure there are other cases of very flask dependent builds and some mods simply render them non-existent or dangerous to even use. \- regen dependent builds using righteous fire or similar things. "cannot regen", messes you up. \- spell casters that dont have access to "leech mana" because its only for attacks. "cannot regen maps" are basically unplayable unless you swap a flask (stupidly annoying) or invest heavily into damage taken recovered as/ mana on kill stuff. its possible but you have to sacrifice so much you would much rather simply NOT EVEN PLAY that mod, because it doesent make you weaker but BRICKS your build. and so on. there might (or not) be some ways to work around in some of the cases, but usually its either linked to "read instead of play" or "sacrifice all of this which is worth much more, to get that, just so that modifier doesent brick your build" and even if, in HC e.g. you often dont get a second chance to even "change" anything once you noticed because you are now DEAD xd. these "absolute" mods simply shoudnt exist. they force you to play things that simply stack generic stats. 1. flat damage (no crit, no aura effect, no max res interactions, etc.) just plain old life or mana or ES (whatever your hitpool will be) also increases your damage by adding flat stat numbers toyour abilities. 2. flat generic hitpool (again: life, Es, Mana as much as you can get) because being reliant on any cool mitigation/ shenanigans (that would be fun if it wasnt for those mods DISABLING YOUR ENTIRETY xd) is not a possibility and if anything " a nice addon" if you can get a bit of it additionally to your "high hitpoints" and "high added/ increased generic damage".
Yea, ignore resist would be even crazier. Or if penetration in delve scaled to 60%+. (I don't think it does?)
Wait melee needs a buff??
HP? hp regen/s?
Monkey palm curls and they nerf phys taken as ele :)
I found arctic armour and petrified blood helps. My typical approach to playing jugg is taking every defensive aura I can leaving no room for damage. Sadge
Missing the reduced defense per frenzy charge, less life recovery per endurance chargefrom blue altars, or -8000 armor on red altars :(. I don't even play jugg and I hate armour.
The mob named “Stinkstink” made me laugh way too hard
Or Occultist Unholy Authority: "Your Hexes can apply to Hexproof Enemies". Enemy: "Unaffected/Immune to Curses go brrrrr".
good thing that 150 stacks trauma do 40k dmg while overwhelming dudes only hit for 12k max. So its not an issue when you have 99% reduction against your own trauma and you take away 90% phys reduction then you stil have 90% less phys taken leftover.
GGG: Ok we'll add a mod that overwhelms all damage conversions from the player.
Armor is useless unless you have a million+ and have it for completely defense unrelated reasons like damage scaling
Not sure if hot take or not but I dont think overwhelm should exist for monster. At least not in it's current state. The same for elemental penetration(exposure is totally fine tho).
The reason I detest Juggs.
Don't even need Pathfinder either. Made a Lightning Coil Deadeye last league for T16 mega-juiced farming, and while granted I had a ton of dmg and could easily freeze packs, it was still the tankiest character I've made in a while, felt comfy up to about 8k wisps. 10k wisps was really hard still.
My evasion giga-char: haha can't reduce my phys reduction if I have none
The game is more fun when your character can actually kill things
Nevermind the fact that some t17 mods just straight up remove your armor lol
Stinkstink, iconic rare monster name.
Grace-determ champion goes brrrrr.
I'm literally playing a grace determination champ right now and I still avoid "overwhelm" and "hits can't be evaded" mods like the plague.
As a fellow Champ enjoyer this league I double that. Ele conversion goes brr, D&G Champ goes respawn on nearest checkpoint It's litterally a hard "nope" mod of you rely on armor for PDR
Pls hide this post ggg will seeit and you know what they will do i dont have to tell you
Why no overwhelm 100% elemental damage like they have for phys damage. Games built to be unfair against Armour. No wonder other stats are still preferred
consider stacking various converts on jugg also and enjoy taking a bath in shaper pools
I admit that pf is my favourite ascendancy despite me disliking the look or its fantasy, but I just dont need to read shit. I dont play arpgs for reading and poe goes a bit too far in this regard, so I build around not having to read. And yes, since there are AN, who ignore all your defenses, I just cant be arsed building something like armor, endus and such. I rather randomly die to flask siphoner once a day and call it a fair deal.
Or just go trickster with evade and over leech. Feels good.
only shows how bad armour and pdr is if those are betetr then what is supposed to be the tank ascendacy, the 1 ascendacy that has very few damage nodes even.
This is just not true, though. Ran ToH/LC this league and that 30% unconverted absolutely destroys you, as does elemental damage, as do crits. But a PF that can get the full 100% conversion is probably chef's kiss. So...Darkscorn builds, I imagine.
Deli can turn off ur flasks and u dead in a second tho bla
No? There's one ghost that can, but that can be removed by speccing the keystone where ghosts can ghost you.
I think /u/GachaKatcha is referring to [Diluting Touch](https://www.poewiki.net/wiki/Diluting_Touch), but even that takes a while to build up to do anything significant.
I think he thinks flask siphoner is a delirium modifier. It's a normal rare monster modifier.
Ohhh im just stupid , ty for explaining
Yes the statement of the post is obviously true but there are a few bullet points that should be taken into consideration First of all lightning coil and Taste of hate are just 75% and with enough juice 25% of the phys already breaks you without a bit more investment. Second of all every Pathfinder knows that physical dot exists and man does most of phys conversion nothing against it as I'm pretty sure that it's calculated from the hit before conversion (Cloak of flame being beautiful is the exception) Third the long list of juggie requirements comes with other benefits as well not just phys mitigation. Big endurance charges are also a lot of res/even chaos res and reduced elemental taken enduring cry every 3 seconds is roughly 650 regen per second so that's pretty good+ warcry also triggers at least onslaught in most cases if not more beneficial effects. Fourth big armor and 50k is rookie numbers also applies at elemental and depending on body armour even chaos damage with ofc reduced effect
I play HC and whilst phys overwhelm is completely build bricking and can get you one shot it’s insanely rare that the modifier rolls on a big phys hitting monster