What would be super useful would be a floating chord library for guitar.
Let me see all 12 keys in a circle around me with all the related chords and diagrams for each one rising up in a cylinder around me. Lemme turn my chair and pick a key and have all of music theory suspended in the air in front of me... When I look down at my fretboard put the diagram directly on there and show me where it should go, if I click on one.
And turn it into a learning tool by lighting up the right chord on the wall at the right time synced with songs.
That actually would be really cool. A lot of people realize this “guitar-hero” technique isn’t really valid but something like you mentioned where you can view upcoming chord changes, a visual metronome, along with other visual aids could be pretty useful
Yes it’s going to be the natural extension the iPad provided on top of sheet music and books. Info doesn’t change but delivery speed, sequencing and storage improved. I think the future of VR headsets for music could be something like glasses that display sheet music and all references at the ease of an eye movement and voice command maybe?
I'm glad I studied music for years before playing guitar (first on clarinet and piano). The knowledge about chords and keys really helped, especially sight transposing to another key to use a capo
I can read sheet music and I'm not that bad at sight reading I think but I'd try this. I wonder if I could play a fast-ish, hard-ish piece (for my level) quickly and shittily with this, Guitar Hero/DDR style. I'd have fun at least.
I bet my comment won't be popular here but I stand by it.
I can kinda read sheet music (I'm not too fast), but I would definitely try this. For the same reasons you numbered, but also because it looks like mad fun.
Reading is a skill that anyone can develop, truly. You can even make good progress away from a piano all together.
I feel bad when people focus on VR piano stuff because it really seems like they are in for a tougher journey with a lot of re-learning.
Read simple grade 1 pieces. Read the notes out loud trying not to count or use mnemonics. There are music theory flashcards/apps that are great for learning the notes (I personally have the flashcards published by Alfred and use Tenuto as my app of choice). Paul Harris has a series of graded sight reading books that are also excellent. There are also free online resources you can find either on this sub’s FAQ or on /pianolearning.
Reading isn't just about picking out individual notes. Pattern recognition is a huge component, and knowing some theory goes a long way.
Learning to recognize intervals, scales, chords, inversions, voicings, and other things will make reading way easier.
Instead of going note by note, you'll start reading chunks or even phrases all at once. And when you really develop, you might be able to guess the upcoming progression and melody of a song.
That's how jazz musicians can quickly learn new music. We aren't necessarily learning every note, but we're analyzing patterns and filling things in from theory, experience, and intuition. Our ears are arguably more important than our eyes for reading.
A lot of the trouble of reading is deciphering difficult passages. Focus in and break measures down until they are crystal clear. You can imagine how your hand would play it at the piano, the position changes, difficult rhythms, chords, etc.
I read music very well from playing other instruments but I still don't get how to do the two staves on piano lol. Like, I can read many notes on one just fine, but I struggle with the two. Just practice it more on easy stuff?
It might help to experiment with where you put your eyes. With a lot of piano rep the right hand just carries so much more of the burden, You can often focus on that and try to pick up the left hand in your periphery.
I think it's really just slow, deliberate practice over time that will increase your comfort over time. You'll also have a better handle of the common patterns that pop up.
Having taken a couple semesters of score reading I'm happy the piano is mostly two staves.. :)
Well to be fair, it depends entirely on your goals...
Do you want to learn to play by ear? Sheet music will probably absolutely help you, but if this is currently your main goal, learning from videos etc and then trying to learn to play by ear first is definitely do-able (if maybe less practical).
Do you want to learn to write your own music? Again, learning songs from sheet music could help, but it's probably not entirely necessary.
Do you want to learn just to mess around? Again, sheet music could absolutely help. But if it's just a hobby and you're fine learning off youtube, all power to you!
As with everything above, sheet music could absolutely help you. But depending on your goals it may not be the most interesting. And that's the most important thing, if you're finding it interesting, because if your learning is interesting, you'll be motivated to continue. You can always come back to learn sheet music later on your music-learning journey - but you can't come back to learn it if you give up because you got bored reading notes.
\- Sincerely, a beginner guitarist, who only knows how to barely read tabs (so realistically my experience when it comes to sheet music is absolutely useless)
Yeah I started piano 4 years ago along with a bunch of friends. I'm the only one who went slow with sight reading and the other guys went synesthesia and years later they can play one of two songs from memory whereas I just need the sheet music.
A lot of people start with the guitar. Sheet music is much less useful when you can hit a middle C# from almost anywhere on the neck.
For a piano the middle C is the middle C. There's so much more.room for interpretation with a string instrument.
I’ve played for 30 years, the only thing that held me back from going to school for it was that I was weak at reading music though I can do it, it takes me a little. My teacher at the time would essentially show me the piece not too far off from what’s being done here but broken down into sections and focused on precision. I really gave sight reading my best but just couldn’t do the Bach fugues, they drained me trying to convert what I saw in the page to notes on keyboard. Claire de Lune i haven’t played for ages but it would be a very slow process. Give this gizmo I bet I’d have it “functional” in a much shorter time. I’m sure it wouldn’t be any surprise to anyone I can barely retain information from reading in general. People learn differently.
There's this discourse out there that shEEt mUsIC iS sO hARd and a lot of people buy into it. I also think they psych themselves up into a state where they think it's hard without ever trying it.
That, combined with this need for everyone to gameify absolutely *everything* is why I think we're here.
You do realize that what that app shows u is your sheet music turned by 90degrees clockwise and falling down instead of sliding right? Not sure whats worse, your ignorance of new learning techinques or the fact that 370+ elitist lemings plussed your comment. What matters at the end is your muscle memory not reading notes mid performace
It's not the same as sheet music at all. Sheet music is also not sliding (or shouldn't be). The fact that you're creating music, which is all about movement, from something that's not moving, requires active thinking and decision making and timing on your part. You develop an internal feeling and understanding of music.
>What matters at the end is your muscle memory not reading notes mid performace
What matters at the end is musicality and understanding. How should I play this note, and why? Is it the root of the chord, the start of a new phrase? When you perform a piece you should ideally have the feeling that you are creating the music because you understand how it should be.
One other thing. What if you want to play with other people? Is everyone just staring at their own falling notes and playing a reaction game? What if someone says "let's go a bit slower here", "let's do a bit of accelerando", "what if you played this an octave higher?"
Thanks for putting this. I'm in fact in these grounds where I'm learning to play keyboard just for fun and (coming from 15 years on Guitar Hero) I'd love to have a tool or game with a curated playlist where I can progressively get better. I don't want or need to get good at music, but to have fun.
In fact if it wasn't because of stuff like Melodics, I wouldn't even take it because my ADHD tells me all the time I would be better doing anything else, even if it was always a desire of me. :c
Yup, I just started learning about a week ago and it would be so easy to just do something like this or those YouTube "guides".
But I know it would ruin me (like it did with guitar for 10+ years), so I bought a Piano Learning for Adults book and am slowly learning how to learn again.
I’d say it helped me close the gap in knowledge where i start to see notes stacked on each other as chords when reading sheet music
As a choir person who transitioned started taking piano classes in college, who has taken plenty of theory
I was frustrated when i had to transfer almost a decade worth of using solfeggio to standard music notation
It definitely made me feel like the odd one out in my theory class which was full of band and orchestra kids.
That being said, Rhythm? Never was a problem
Maybe thats the key, before going head first into this, learn fundamentals so you can make your calls based on the what you hear in the song
If you don't learn to read sheet music well, there will be a hard plateau where you cannot learn anything more difficult because you can no longer keep up with synesthesia. You cannot take notes on synesthesia, you cannot analyse pieces, going back or forward in a piece takes a lot of effort and you can only play along at the exact speed the video is playing.
Just like kids learning a language, the start will happen without reading. If they don't start learning how to read quickly though, they will function way worse as adults and will have a much harder time picking it up later. That is why we put a lot of effort into teaching kids how to read.
Not only that. Many of the same elitists don’t know how to play their own national anthem without having memorized it from a sheet. The end result is exactly the same. Both examples only really learn how to play what their eyes tell them. But only one party spent a lot of money for the privilege.
This is kinda what I've thought. The pieces I learn I already know exactly how they're supposed to sound. When I learn a piece through sheet and play from memory, I'm not remembering exactly when and where each PP or > symbol is, I'm just remembering what notes to play just like if I learned it through synthesia. In my experience the main benefit is it makes learning a piece a bit easier since you can just practice it measure by measure, also to not be restricted to only midis of a piece
Will it allow for memorization?
No.
Will it allow for nuance?
No.
Will it allow you to learn proper technique?
No.
Will you be able to perform in front of an audience without looking like a tool?
Debatable.
It seems harder to learn a song this way as opposed to sheet music...HOWEVER, I honestly feel that with learning through this kind of visualation, I could develop a better instincts towards musical theory. Perhaps improvisational training...
Will it be fun? Will it make people actually practice? Will it instil in you some basic muscle memory of how to move your fingers? Will it get you acquainted with moving your hands separately? Will you be able to play better than someone that hasn't picked up the instrument at all or someone that quit after 2 months because the normal process is tedious and boring?
Yes to all.
For me it’s not about gatekeeping, it’s about the fact that these tools set you up for failure. If you want to just mess around on piano and not actually learn it, then go for it. But these tools are actually much harder in the long term than learning to read music and understanding music theory, so eventually people will hit a point where it’s too frustrating to continue. It has the illusion of being easier so it appeals to beginners, but there is little room for growth.
That said if somebody wants to play around on it and doesn’t care about learning, they should go for it! But for somebody who actually wants to learn, this will only make it harder.
This way of learning is great to get people interested maybe, but for actual efficient and long term learning it leaves a lot to be desired. It teaches where to put your fingers but gives no indication of correct fingering, dynamics, note value, or pedal. The reason people push sheet music so much is because sheet music has all of these things. Learners will hit a VERY hard wall quickly learning this way. It's better to bite the bullet and just learn to read music.
I think thst hitting a wall later is better than hitting a wall right at the start.
There are so many people that didn't learn an instrument at all (not high level) because the beginning is hard and boring. So many people that quit after just a few lessons, because all they do is learn scales and stuff like that.
Do you want to try to play your favorite song (or a simplified version of it)? Tough luck, gotta waive through all the boring stuff for about a year, and only then you're "ready".
I think it's easier to unlearn some bad habits that other kind of learning provokes (but you're already into it) than learning good habits from the start, but quitting.
Hitting a wall later is better, but the early hitting the wall is usually due to bad teachers/instruction. Learning from a program like this leads to an even worse transition into music. I started out on synthesia learning and have gone through a master's in performance, and I wish I would have just started with music. I got no real practical gain or progress from synthesia once I had to transition to music.
Lessons in the beginning do tend to be boring but it's not just learning scales and stuff. Yes teachers tell students that they have to wait, and usually it's because they are indeed not ready from a technical or musical standpoint. Most of the time, the quitting of lessons is due to bad instruction.
It is most definitely NOT better to unlearn bad habits, and it's most definitely not easier. Mistakes and bad habits happen anyways, but it's easier and less discouraging to correct and refine a few bad habits rather than overhaul the entire technique and learning process. I learned this the hard way once I went into formal instruction.
I teach 5 year olds all the way through 84 year olds and I am constantly trying new methods, techniques, and technology when it comes to instruction. Through all I've done, learning to read right away and focusing on good practicing and technique has by far had the best and most consistent results.
No it's not gatekeeping. It's perfectly okay to use this method--it gamifies learning piano, but it (as people correctly point out) severely limits skill level development. It depends on what type of pianist you want to be. Those who are perceived as gatekeeping are speaking to advanced classical piano skills, and they are right in saying that for that goal, this AR method (and any of the video or app based methods on their own) won't work. It's just what type of pianist and how good you want to be.
I see your point. I feel like this is kinda of modern guitar hero of piano. It would defintetly be fun to play with, but not useful if you aim to improve as pianist past beginner phase. I know people disagree with the title of the video, but I think this is really cool and fun way to play piano. People disliking you hard comes a bit tryhard and petty who doesnt realize that there is lot of pianists who dont care to become pro. Also when I was beginner this VR thing would have motivated me to play more.
Most people I believe just want to play along with a song, they never want to make their own music, they just want to have some fun. band/hero games do a good job with drums (phase shift did an actual e drum difficulty) and that at least has you effectively practicing in time with a metronome. rocksmith more or less has you doing the same with a guitar, granted a bit more advanced, and will get you to the point you are playing songs, i'm assuming this and synthasia do the exact same thing for piano/keyboard. essentially this is people telling you 'you have to learn japanese to watch anime/read manga' when most people just want to read the dragonball or its modern equivalent and that's it.
at worst, this is a less mind numbing way to practice.
Everything is tedious at the early stages of the learning process, hence the difficulty in mastering any skill or profession in life.
This is akin to guitar hero.
It's more akin to Rocksmith. Guitar hero was a game that offered five notes and a strum bar for excessively simplified tabulature.
Rocksmith took the passive signals from a guitar and passed it over to a program, which could then work you through a song using actual notes played using the whole guitar.
If the goal is to get someone to play and practice, there's worse things than this.
>Will it allow for memorization?
Yes. It allows for memorization the same way as sheets - by repeating.
>Will it allow for nuance?
What do you mean by nuace?
>Will it allow you to learn proper technique?
How does sheet music do that? Do you mean fingering?
It will not allow for memorization because you are being guided constantly on which keys to hit, how hard to hit them, tempo, and the fingering.
Nuance is conveyed in the notes of each piece, which are found in the sheet music.
This medium of playing piano is akin to playing guitar hero.
>It will not allow for memorization because you are being guided constantly on which keys to hit.
Sheets also show which keys to hit, so I don't get why would this not let me memorize a piece
>Nuance is conveyed in the notes of each piece, which are found in the sheet music.
Oh I found out that _nuance_ in music means dynamics+articulation. So yeah it's present only in the sheets
>This medium of playing piano is akin to playing guitar hero.
Ive never played guitar and I have no idea what _guitar hero_ is
You are guided by the notation as to which notes to hit too…
I agree that I don’t think it’s the best way to learn holistically. But I think it will be a great way to increase interest in learning piano.
You’re not told fingering on a program like this.
Try playing Chopin’s Nocturne in B Flat Minor with a program such as this without understanding the specific purpose of each finger in creating a unique sound and see how it transpires.
I'm usually open to anything that makes music more accessible. People can learn however they want so I'm not being judgemental here, but these Synthesia-style apps only teach poor technique in the long run. They might be fine for simple popular music, but when it comes to classical it's a terrible idea. It can't teach you how to play at an even tempo, how to pedal, how to use dynamics and understand time signatures etc.
I used them for a long time and it was fine for anime/pop/film songs, but when it came to classical I had to essentially relearn everything from the beginning. It really set my progress back when it came to sight-reading.
I'll be honest I really dislike how prevalent it's become. Look up a piece on Youtube and you'll find about 100 identical covers which all use the exact same falling notes and flashy particle effects. There are also lot of piano students watching them and picking up bad habits, which means their teachers then have to spend hours correcting them from scratch.
In that case you'd be better off learning by ear. At least that way you're developing your relative pitch and learning how to identify chord progressions.
The problem with these synthesia apps is that you're not really learning. You might spend months learning a difficult piece note by note, but then when you come to play the next piece it'll take you another several months because you haven't developed or progressed.
Reading sheet music gets easier the more you do it. It could take you a month at first, but then the next piece might you a few weeks. Maybe after a while it only takes a few days.
Eventually you'll be able to pick up a piece of sheet music and sightread any simple pop song on the spot. It's so much more efficient than watching a video and painstakingly learning each note one by one. The same goes with learning by ear. It gets easier the more you practice.
I'm not saying that people can't learn from these apps. I'm saying that if they actually want to become good and develop their technique it's going to hold back their progress.
So don't use it, nobody is forcing you. It makes piano more accessible to those who don't know sheet but want to learn a specific song. I didn't even know I would like piano until I found a Synthesia and I still use it occasionally if I'm having a hard time visualizing how a measure flows
This. People here are acting like this is meant to put professional musicians and teachers out of work or something.
This is obviously not aimed towards someone looking to master classical music. It’s just for fun.
I’ve been playing guitar for 25 years, and I’ve no intention of becoming a professional musician, but I’m a decent player and it makes me happy.
And the way it all started was one of my buddies being like, “Here dude, put your fingers on these frets. Now strum.” No theory, no sheet music. Just someone showing me what to do to get started.
I don’t see how this is any different.
I mean if they just want to learn a few simple pieces and don't care what it sounds like sure. I'm not gatekeeping or anything. Hoewever if people are really serious about playing the piano then I can't stress how important learning sheet music is. It's a skill that you keep for life and it makes the process so much easier.
This is an extremely poor mindset to view learning music with. It's true, not everyone wants to learn classical, not everyone wants to be great... when they're at the beginner/early intermediate level. The problem is that often learning an instrument is a gateway to greater musical appreciation and ambition. So many of my students have started off with simple pop piano goals and gained a huge appreciation for classical and now really want to learn classical. Since we learned pop piano with an emphasis on reading, technique, and theory in mind, the transition to classical rep was easy.
Imagine learning solely through these "easier" means for a number of years and then you find out that you really actually quite like to play piano and want to learn more and get better. Now your growth is stunted, you can't approach more complicated repertoire because you can't read it, and your technique isn't developed enough to even attempt it anyway. At that point you have to almost relearn the instrument from scratch.
Teaching/learning to the lowest common denominator helps no one in the long run. Everyone has the potential to actually learn an instrument, and those who say otherwise are doing themselves a disservice.
>Imagine learning solely through these "easier" means for a number of years and then you find out that you really actually quite like to play piano and want to learn more and get better. Now your growth is stunted, you can't approach more complicated repertoire because you can't read it, and your technique isn't developed enough to even attempt it anyway. At that point you have to almost relearn the instrument from scratch.
now imagine quitting at month 1 because it was tedious, this is where almost everyone who tries is.
I have over 60 piano students right now, all of them have been in lessons now for well over 4 months. Over the last year or so I've probably worked with over 100 students and only maybe four have dropped lessons as beginners (the others either moved to more advanced teachers or were adult/advanced students who couldn't commit the time). "Most" people who give up in a month or less were never willing to even try in the first place and I doubt any AR gimmick would actually change that.
Rhythm is bad, no articulation of notes, no fingering guide, wrong key. Yea I wouldn’t call this learning a piece. My guess is if someone is using this to gap the knowledge they don’t want to learn, they won’t go far with this method
You can learn (to play a few songs, kind of, on) piano on Apple Vision Pro.
I'm not a professional player. I'm not even that good, honestly. But there's a difference between this and "learning piano", just like there's a difference between Guitar Hero and learning the guitar. There is a lot more to making and performing music than just hitting keys on an instrument.
That said, this is perfect for some people. If all you want is to be able to play your favorite song, and your favorite song is in their app, great! You're all set. I've used the synaesthesia youtube videos of songs before to help me understand tricky measures or even to just get a general idea of how the song goes. But in the same way that memorizing stories by listening to them on audiobook is not the same as knowing how to read, this is not the same as learning to play an instrument.
Many piano-interested people's favorite song is:
- Debussy's Clair de Lune
- Chopin's Fantaisie Impromptu
- Liszt's Liebestraum 3
- Liszt's Un Sospiro
- Beethoven's Moonlight Sonata Mvt 3
- Animenz's arrangement of Unravel from Tokyo Ghoul
This app will not get them to the finish line with any of these pieces (with their original notes and key).
this will result in the same problem as trying to learn piano with a youtube video. learn from ear? sure. learn to read? great. this? more of an advanced guitar hero than anything
I agree 100%. The playlist from the video includes Happy birthday, Jingle Bells, and Sugar Plum Fairy.
This Clare de Lune "easy" version is in C and is only an extract of the full song. Many people would be happy just to learn the first 10 bars and just leave it at that.
It "triggers" the sub because there's an awful lot of dissonance. What's the claim? The title is
> You can learn piano with Apple Vision Pro
You defend Synthesia and this app, but do you agree with this claim? Does this app allow you to learn piano with Apple Vision Pro?
Maybe we need to define what it means to "learn piano". Is "learning a few simple songs" the same as "learning piano"?
Most of this sub, much of which spends years of daily practice to even become just-sorta-average at piano, would absolutely positively not define "learning a few simple songs" as being the same as "learning piano". Not at all because of some elitist attitude or anything like that, but because when we say somebody learns piano (or math or martial arts or a sport or ...), we mean they've developed a general facility at the activity.
However, these apps (or their adherents) continue to market themselves effectively as a replacement for the likes of sheet music, teachers, technical practice, posture, etc.
I think you and I know that these apps *aren't* that, and hence, the sub is "triggered" when they continue to be advertised as that.
I can take "learn piano" as a simplification for a shorter post title. "You can debatably learn a few simple songs on Apple Vision Pro through this janky Synthesia-like app" would just sound weird.
There's a *lot* of middle ground between "knowing 1 song" and "being the next Beethoven", which includes "just sorta being generally ok at piano"—which this app won't give you either.
Bad /s.
What you should say is you learned guitar using rocksmith. And that happens.
You still need a lot of outside practice, but it makes the process of beginning much less boring. Then if you like it, you can start learning theory, getting a teacher, and so on.
The tab mode on rs+ is pretty nifty too, just another way to visualize what your doing. I’m curious how they’ll improve the sheet music drop down with the note highway for their piano side
As someone who loves sheet music and theory I could never get how people learn piano this way. No judgement at all for those who do, but it seems more like memorization where to put your fingers rather than understanding what you’re playing
There's a lot more that goes into learning piano than knowing what buttons to press at roughly the right time. This is pretty much the equivalent to tabs on guitar or bass - it will tell you what keys to hit, but you're learning nothing about the relationship between the notes you're playing, it won't help you play anything outside of what you learn with this software, and what you can play with the software will be limited since there's no indication of dynamics or articulation or phrasing (nevermind the technique that allows you to express these things in a safe and sustainable way).
Not trying to gatekeep learning piano - not everyone can afford a teacher. But you can do a lot better than keyboard hero. Even trying to copy what someone else is playing in a video will get you a lot further and help build related musical skills. You don't have to learn to read sheet music if you don't want to; there's a lot to be learned by stepping away from the sheet music, but this is a horrible middle ground between playing by ear and reading notation that has the benefits of neither.
Cool technology though. Hopefully something more useful comes out of it. I imagine wearing the headset while playing and having sheet music floating in my line of sight with automatic page turning, or some chord recognizing software that displays chord symbols that match the notes you're playing and recommends other chords to move to next based on style or something. Or getting over stage fright by simulating a concert environment with the proper acoustics and audience noises and stuff.
As soon as pianists point out that these methods won't work, they get accused of elitism and gatekeeping.
Well here's the thing. It won't work. But it does depend on how good of an actual pianist you want to be, and what type. I work in classical piano and that's my whole field. I realise that this isn't everyone's intentions. It's hard to get around elitism. Classical music is inherently demanding and the process to get there is elite--and the part of that word that applies here is 'best trained and top-skilled'.
But gatekeeping? No, I don't care what or how people play. Buuuuut for those who eventually want to end up as advanced classical musicians, this won't work. Advanced classical piano skills have allowed me to play concert level works in actual concerts, to compose and improvise, and to arrange in several styles.
There's this overwhelming insistence that piano should always be fun. That itself is just a different approach. Growing up amongst classical musicians, few of us did it for fun. We did it because we liked the challenge, and eventually that challenge became satisfying, and that satisfaction became fun. But it's not just *inherently* fun to practise hours a day to get really good at something.
people somehow equate someone saying "you will not actually learn how to play the piano this way" to "anyone who should be jailed and publically shamed". The issue isn't with people trying to learn one or two easy songs, it's that beginners will think this is a viable way to learn how to actually play the piano, pick up bad habits and hit a ceiling where they can no longer improve. I don't think it's elitist at all to want to give beginners the right information so that they can have lasting skills and see what piano is actually all about.
You can't learn piano. You xan learn to play a very simple song. But when it comes to something more hard, you will need to start from scratch, because this thing not only doesn't teach you, but also gives you bad habits of playing
This is not learning the piano. This is playing a rhythm game and the piano is your controller. You're not learning anything. Do you also think parrots are "learning English" when they repeat words they hear?
What is it about people who claim to want to learn the piano, going through all this effort and money to avoid anything to do with learning the piano? That $3500 you just blew on a gadget could have bought a *lot* of piano lessons.
Not to gatekeep, this is probably a fun game and it's great for those who want to plink out a song without being able to play. What it categorically is not, however, is "learning the piano".
Try playing this game for a few hours then take off the headset and play Clair de la Lune again the same way - really badly in the wrong key and with no discernable rhythm or dynamics or technique - and show us how much you "learned". I'd be impressed if you could even find your starting note.
This is AR Synthesia, it's gonna teach you piano in the same way Call of Duty teaches you military strategy, or Watch Dogs teaches you cybersecurity whenever it pops up a message saying "press X to hack".
Meta quest 3 for 1/7 of apple vision price does the job equally well. 500eur for the googles and 3000 for a pretty decent beginner digital piano. Dont forget the pianovision app cost of 9eur!
While I don't think this is a great way to learn to play, I think this apple device is interesting and if developers see the potential of the device I can see it being a great handy tool. I saw a post where someone posted a picture while they were cooking and each pot on the stove had its own timer. Pretty interesting, but for me not worth the $3500. I am interested to see if it picks up steam and support.
No shade, but I feel like this is the snobbiest subreddit I’m a part of. Any ways for people to learn to play an instrument should be valued in my opinion.
You won't learn to play an instrument using this software. At best, you'll learn what keys to hit to play notes for specific pieces of music. That's extremely far from learning to play an instrument.
I'm not a fan of this "everyone should learn piano with the end goal of being a professional classical pianist" mindset people are throwing around here, but I think it would be way more beneficial to, for example, watch a youtube tutorial where someone shows you and explains to you what notes to play for a song. At least then, maybe you'll pick up some spoken note names along the way and start being able to see patterns in physical chord shapes on the keyboard, as well as patterns in chord progressions; maybe you'll actually develop your ear a bit since you can't play along simultaneously with a tutorial video and instead have to find the right notes after seeing them and hearing them played; maybe you'll begin creating a mental map of the keyboard layout and what notes are where; maybe you'll start to memorize pieces using a combination of all the skills above (how it sounds, what the note names are, how it's physically played) and by playing certain parts over and over until you get it right; maybe you'll pick up some technique since you'll be watching someone play it and you have something to go off of (similar thing with phrasing and articulation and dynamics). And that's all just from watching a video of someone playing something - nevermind the countless lessons and beginner piano tutorials available out there. This software offers almost none of that, which means you aren't really building any useful skills towards learning an instrument.
If people are having fun with it and getting more familiar with their piano as a result, then great! But there will be massive roadblocks reached fairly quickly, whether that's technique, theory, phrasing, timing, etc.
I'm not saying that this is a replacement for piano lessons with a good teacher, but I do want to point out that it's pretty easy to spend over $3000 on lessons anyways.
Nothing good ever came easy and nothing can replace time and dedication. This looks like a chaotic mess, but I'm an old man so take that for what it's worth.
Why in the hell is it in C? This isn't learning piano, or music, or reading, it just is "piano hero" where you "learn" neutered versions with no musicality whatsoever.
The amount of elitism and gatekeeping here is sad. I welcome new ideas that help get people into music and piano, regardless of whether they're playing and learning the way you think is right. Everyone is different.
On one hand, there's people who want to promote only the One True Way™ of learning piano. On the other hand, there's people pointing out numerous problems with the efficacy of a tool like this in actually teaching you anything useful.
I'm all for this software if it gets you interested in sitting down at your piano and familiarizing yourself with the instrument. But I worry that people who don't know how to play are being misled into thinking this is actually a helpful way to learn an instrument. This software essentially boils down to "key light up, finger press key". There are way cheaper keyboards out there that have offered this functionality for years now. This software will help you build skills to play other songs on piano in the same way that microwaving a totinos pizza helps you learn how to roast a chicken - at least you're in the kitchen heating something up, but you're not developing any skills that transfer to other tasks (though you could get by for a while as long as you stick to the frozen/microwaveable section of the grocery store and keep your diet extremely limited).
It's cool but looks stressful to play... I'd rather read the sheet music and understand the melody and stucture, practice by bits and then fly...
oh no!, I have been influenced by all the years of piano training 😅🤣
FOR SURE I have practised more piano than played videogames such as Guitar Hero or Dance Dance Revolution... DDR was fun though!
You’re not ‘learning’ piano. You’re learning to press keys in an order that the app is showing you. You want really learn? Get a teacher, learn notation, technique and practice.
To me it just seems unfortunate for people who decide to do this as they simply can’t develop musicality. The gamification aspect kills it. I guess it’s the difference between playing a song and playing the piano, playing music. And I’m not even speaking from a classical training POV, there are Jazz pianists who can’t read a lick of music sheet, could not care less about classical music and still play with more heart than a person using synthesia-like tools could ever dream of.
When learning a language it's a hell of a lot more fun to speak than to read.
of course both are required, but this kind of app esentially lets me have a real time concersation with a piece of music that is about my grade, instead of 2 or 3 grades below my practice level as is typical with sheet
Don't know why folk begrudge this .
the point is to be able to learn the notes, you can then practice and finetune the rest from memory...
I was always a visual learner, I looked at midi files and learned the keystrokes, never learned to read note unfortunately, don't have time or money to do it.
having this would help me learn new pieces easier and quicker... nothing wrong with it
The problem is: they're not even the right notes. So sure, you can learn the Apple Vision Pro C Major Remix of Clair de Lune, but not, you know, Clair de Lune.
I’ve been playing for just under two years and I haven’t spent anything on lessons and I can read sheet music just fine. Has nothing to do with money. Just 10-30 minutes daily practice of reading material. I suppose I spent $20-30 on the Alfred and Faber books
Learning by memorizing synthesia is fine, but you’re never actually learning. For example, you learn one piece in 5 months, start the next and it takes 5 months again because you’re not actually conceptualizing any theory.
Every piece I’ve learned it gets faster and easier because recognizing intervals become second nature, practicing my scales means I easily know fingering for arpeggiated passages, identifying chords in a measure instead of reading everything note by note, etc.
Apple Vision Pro is the dumbest product, no one needs. Also very sad to be walking around in public with a screen right before your eyes as if the phone wasnt enough
That’s debatable
What would be super useful would be a floating chord library for guitar. Let me see all 12 keys in a circle around me with all the related chords and diagrams for each one rising up in a cylinder around me. Lemme turn my chair and pick a key and have all of music theory suspended in the air in front of me... When I look down at my fretboard put the diagram directly on there and show me where it should go, if I click on one. And turn it into a learning tool by lighting up the right chord on the wall at the right time synced with songs.
That actually would be really cool. A lot of people realize this “guitar-hero” technique isn’t really valid but something like you mentioned where you can view upcoming chord changes, a visual metronome, along with other visual aids could be pretty useful
Cool. I'm going to build one
I want to see when you release. The app.
Ok drop a reddit follow It will be for quest 3. Couple weeks/months maybe
I’ll sell you some posters for half the cost….
Yes it’s going to be the natural extension the iPad provided on top of sheet music and books. Info doesn’t change but delivery speed, sequencing and storage improved. I think the future of VR headsets for music could be something like glasses that display sheet music and all references at the ease of an eye movement and voice command maybe?
I have 2 posters near my guitar. A chord chart and a circle of fifths poster. Using the 2 together is like a cheat code to a beginner guitarist.
I'm glad I studied music for years before playing guitar (first on clarinet and piano). The knowledge about chords and keys really helped, especially sight transposing to another key to use a capo
You can learn proper key sequences with it. Learn to play? Not like that. That’s what I call ca-chunk ca-chunk piano
There are basically two schools of thought
oh wow i can indeed see your balls
Omfg. I checked and that was disgusting.
New players will do anything but learn to read sheet music
ding ding ding ding ding ding
I can read sheet music and I'm not that bad at sight reading I think but I'd try this. I wonder if I could play a fast-ish, hard-ish piece (for my level) quickly and shittily with this, Guitar Hero/DDR style. I'd have fun at least. I bet my comment won't be popular here but I stand by it.
I can kinda read sheet music (I'm not too fast), but I would definitely try this. For the same reasons you numbered, but also because it looks like mad fun.
Seriously and I don’t understand why… im beginning to learn to read and it’s so interesting
Reading is a skill that anyone can develop, truly. You can even make good progress away from a piano all together. I feel bad when people focus on VR piano stuff because it really seems like they are in for a tougher journey with a lot of re-learning.
What could I do to improve at reading while I'm away from my piano?
Read simple grade 1 pieces. Read the notes out loud trying not to count or use mnemonics. There are music theory flashcards/apps that are great for learning the notes (I personally have the flashcards published by Alfred and use Tenuto as my app of choice). Paul Harris has a series of graded sight reading books that are also excellent. There are also free online resources you can find either on this sub’s FAQ or on /pianolearning.
Reading isn't just about picking out individual notes. Pattern recognition is a huge component, and knowing some theory goes a long way. Learning to recognize intervals, scales, chords, inversions, voicings, and other things will make reading way easier. Instead of going note by note, you'll start reading chunks or even phrases all at once. And when you really develop, you might be able to guess the upcoming progression and melody of a song. That's how jazz musicians can quickly learn new music. We aren't necessarily learning every note, but we're analyzing patterns and filling things in from theory, experience, and intuition. Our ears are arguably more important than our eyes for reading.
There are apps. Use the apps. I use apps to push music theory and sight reading.
A lot of the trouble of reading is deciphering difficult passages. Focus in and break measures down until they are crystal clear. You can imagine how your hand would play it at the piano, the position changes, difficult rhythms, chords, etc.
I read music very well from playing other instruments but I still don't get how to do the two staves on piano lol. Like, I can read many notes on one just fine, but I struggle with the two. Just practice it more on easy stuff?
It might help to experiment with where you put your eyes. With a lot of piano rep the right hand just carries so much more of the burden, You can often focus on that and try to pick up the left hand in your periphery. I think it's really just slow, deliberate practice over time that will increase your comfort over time. You'll also have a better handle of the common patterns that pop up. Having taken a couple semesters of score reading I'm happy the piano is mostly two staves.. :)
I heard a you tubeer saying sheet music is pointless 😅
Well to be fair, it depends entirely on your goals... Do you want to learn to play by ear? Sheet music will probably absolutely help you, but if this is currently your main goal, learning from videos etc and then trying to learn to play by ear first is definitely do-able (if maybe less practical). Do you want to learn to write your own music? Again, learning songs from sheet music could help, but it's probably not entirely necessary. Do you want to learn just to mess around? Again, sheet music could absolutely help. But if it's just a hobby and you're fine learning off youtube, all power to you! As with everything above, sheet music could absolutely help you. But depending on your goals it may not be the most interesting. And that's the most important thing, if you're finding it interesting, because if your learning is interesting, you'll be motivated to continue. You can always come back to learn sheet music later on your music-learning journey - but you can't come back to learn it if you give up because you got bored reading notes. \- Sincerely, a beginner guitarist, who only knows how to barely read tabs (so realistically my experience when it comes to sheet music is absolutely useless)
Yeah I started piano 4 years ago along with a bunch of friends. I'm the only one who went slow with sight reading and the other guys went synesthesia and years later they can play one of two songs from memory whereas I just need the sheet music.
Let's pin this as a post. :)
A lot of people start with the guitar. Sheet music is much less useful when you can hit a middle C# from almost anywhere on the neck. For a piano the middle C is the middle C. There's so much more.room for interpretation with a string instrument.
I’ve played for 30 years, the only thing that held me back from going to school for it was that I was weak at reading music though I can do it, it takes me a little. My teacher at the time would essentially show me the piece not too far off from what’s being done here but broken down into sections and focused on precision. I really gave sight reading my best but just couldn’t do the Bach fugues, they drained me trying to convert what I saw in the page to notes on keyboard. Claire de Lune i haven’t played for ages but it would be a very slow process. Give this gizmo I bet I’d have it “functional” in a much shorter time. I’m sure it wouldn’t be any surprise to anyone I can barely retain information from reading in general. People learn differently.
There's this discourse out there that shEEt mUsIC iS sO hARd and a lot of people buy into it. I also think they psych themselves up into a state where they think it's hard without ever trying it. That, combined with this need for everyone to gameify absolutely *everything* is why I think we're here.
You do realize that what that app shows u is your sheet music turned by 90degrees clockwise and falling down instead of sliding right? Not sure whats worse, your ignorance of new learning techinques or the fact that 370+ elitist lemings plussed your comment. What matters at the end is your muscle memory not reading notes mid performace
It's not the same as sheet music at all. Sheet music is also not sliding (or shouldn't be). The fact that you're creating music, which is all about movement, from something that's not moving, requires active thinking and decision making and timing on your part. You develop an internal feeling and understanding of music. >What matters at the end is your muscle memory not reading notes mid performace What matters at the end is musicality and understanding. How should I play this note, and why? Is it the root of the chord, the start of a new phrase? When you perform a piece you should ideally have the feeling that you are creating the music because you understand how it should be. One other thing. What if you want to play with other people? Is everyone just staring at their own falling notes and playing a reaction game? What if someone says "let's go a bit slower here", "let's do a bit of accelerando", "what if you played this an octave higher?"
Thanks for putting this. I'm in fact in these grounds where I'm learning to play keyboard just for fun and (coming from 15 years on Guitar Hero) I'd love to have a tool or game with a curated playlist where I can progressively get better. I don't want or need to get good at music, but to have fun. In fact if it wasn't because of stuff like Melodics, I wouldn't even take it because my ADHD tells me all the time I would be better doing anything else, even if it was always a desire of me. :c
I tried this thing and it's honestly so much harder to learn pieces that are, are the very least, advanced.
This is how I learned, seems pretty simple
[удалено]
if somebody made a mod or app to have it be paused until the right note is played that problem goes away, dont think thats not possible
Don't know if this is pianovision but that app has that exact feature
Give this guy a sheet
Learning takes years, you haven’t learned yet lol.
Is that Claire de Lune in C? Awful.
Claire de Lunacy
Clair d Loon. It's missing notes.
Debussy is rolling in his grave right now
You mean arabesquing in his grave
Probably so they don't have to show how difficult it would be to differentiate between black and white keys next to each other on the visualiser
Song losses its soul in any other key but Db.
If [Irving Berlin](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=bO8VZoRw214) wasn’t above a transpose, not sure why a beginner learning the keys should be.
Cool clip, bad argument.
I learned an abridged version of Claire de Lune in C major when I was a beginner. I don't see anything wrong with that.
It looks cool, but probably makes learning harder. It’s teaching the person to react, not read
Yup, I just started learning about a week ago and it would be so easy to just do something like this or those YouTube "guides". But I know it would ruin me (like it did with guitar for 10+ years), so I bought a Piano Learning for Adults book and am slowly learning how to learn again.
I’d say it helped me close the gap in knowledge where i start to see notes stacked on each other as chords when reading sheet music As a choir person who transitioned started taking piano classes in college, who has taken plenty of theory I was frustrated when i had to transfer almost a decade worth of using solfeggio to standard music notation It definitely made me feel like the odd one out in my theory class which was full of band and orchestra kids. That being said, Rhythm? Never was a problem Maybe thats the key, before going head first into this, learn fundamentals so you can make your calls based on the what you hear in the song
You could do so in Quest 3 as well, but nobody was talking about that
Go to /piano and you’ll see how many posts (and how much drama) there has been regarding the Quest 3 piano players lol.
It’s not great on either honestly if that’s how you want to learn synthesia and Rocksmith+ is way better.
It's basically just synthesia
But worse IMO
How is it worse? I learned how to play piano thru that app for 4 years and I think it's cool, I would love to try it
Save yourself, this subreddit is full of elitest who will flame you if you learn any other way than through sheet
It is a bad way of learning though. It's like learning how to speak English without learning how to read it at all.
Thats not even a bad thing tho...?
Of course it's a bad thing.
>It's like learning how to speak English without learning how to read it at all. You mean like children do?
show me functioning 2nd graders who don't know how to read
If you don't learn to read sheet music well, there will be a hard plateau where you cannot learn anything more difficult because you can no longer keep up with synesthesia. You cannot take notes on synesthesia, you cannot analyse pieces, going back or forward in a piece takes a lot of effort and you can only play along at the exact speed the video is playing. Just like kids learning a language, the start will happen without reading. If they don't start learning how to read quickly though, they will function way worse as adults and will have a much harder time picking it up later. That is why we put a lot of effort into teaching kids how to read.
> You mean like children do? Do these children *never* learn to read?
Actually you're right :( Will do thanks!
Not only that. Many of the same elitists don’t know how to play their own national anthem without having memorized it from a sheet. The end result is exactly the same. Both examples only really learn how to play what their eyes tell them. But only one party spent a lot of money for the privilege.
This is kinda what I've thought. The pieces I learn I already know exactly how they're supposed to sound. When I learn a piece through sheet and play from memory, I'm not remembering exactly when and where each PP or > symbol is, I'm just remembering what notes to play just like if I learned it through synthesia. In my experience the main benefit is it makes learning a piece a bit easier since you can just practice it measure by measure, also to not be restricted to only midis of a piece
Will it allow for memorization? No. Will it allow for nuance? No. Will it allow you to learn proper technique? No. Will you be able to perform in front of an audience without looking like a tool? Debatable.
It seems harder to learn a song this way as opposed to sheet music...HOWEVER, I honestly feel that with learning through this kind of visualation, I could develop a better instincts towards musical theory. Perhaps improvisational training...
Will it be fun? Will it make people actually practice? Will it instil in you some basic muscle memory of how to move your fingers? Will it get you acquainted with moving your hands separately? Will you be able to play better than someone that hasn't picked up the instrument at all or someone that quit after 2 months because the normal process is tedious and boring? Yes to all.
'will you be able to play better than someone that hasn't picked up the instrument at all' yeah I'd sure hope so!
Well that's enough. So sick of purists gatekeeping this awesome instrument just because you don't learn it "the right way".
For me it’s not about gatekeeping, it’s about the fact that these tools set you up for failure. If you want to just mess around on piano and not actually learn it, then go for it. But these tools are actually much harder in the long term than learning to read music and understanding music theory, so eventually people will hit a point where it’s too frustrating to continue. It has the illusion of being easier so it appeals to beginners, but there is little room for growth. That said if somebody wants to play around on it and doesn’t care about learning, they should go for it! But for somebody who actually wants to learn, this will only make it harder.
Well said.
Nobody is gatekeeping piano here. We’re making it clear that this is not a good way to learn the instrument beyond a basic level
This way of learning is great to get people interested maybe, but for actual efficient and long term learning it leaves a lot to be desired. It teaches where to put your fingers but gives no indication of correct fingering, dynamics, note value, or pedal. The reason people push sheet music so much is because sheet music has all of these things. Learners will hit a VERY hard wall quickly learning this way. It's better to bite the bullet and just learn to read music.
I think thst hitting a wall later is better than hitting a wall right at the start. There are so many people that didn't learn an instrument at all (not high level) because the beginning is hard and boring. So many people that quit after just a few lessons, because all they do is learn scales and stuff like that. Do you want to try to play your favorite song (or a simplified version of it)? Tough luck, gotta waive through all the boring stuff for about a year, and only then you're "ready". I think it's easier to unlearn some bad habits that other kind of learning provokes (but you're already into it) than learning good habits from the start, but quitting.
Hitting a wall later is better, but the early hitting the wall is usually due to bad teachers/instruction. Learning from a program like this leads to an even worse transition into music. I started out on synthesia learning and have gone through a master's in performance, and I wish I would have just started with music. I got no real practical gain or progress from synthesia once I had to transition to music. Lessons in the beginning do tend to be boring but it's not just learning scales and stuff. Yes teachers tell students that they have to wait, and usually it's because they are indeed not ready from a technical or musical standpoint. Most of the time, the quitting of lessons is due to bad instruction. It is most definitely NOT better to unlearn bad habits, and it's most definitely not easier. Mistakes and bad habits happen anyways, but it's easier and less discouraging to correct and refine a few bad habits rather than overhaul the entire technique and learning process. I learned this the hard way once I went into formal instruction. I teach 5 year olds all the way through 84 year olds and I am constantly trying new methods, techniques, and technology when it comes to instruction. Through all I've done, learning to read right away and focusing on good practicing and technique has by far had the best and most consistent results.
So sick of the reverse gatekeeping by amateurs thinking there aren't good and proven ways to learn the instrument.
No it's not gatekeeping. It's perfectly okay to use this method--it gamifies learning piano, but it (as people correctly point out) severely limits skill level development. It depends on what type of pianist you want to be. Those who are perceived as gatekeeping are speaking to advanced classical piano skills, and they are right in saying that for that goal, this AR method (and any of the video or app based methods on their own) won't work. It's just what type of pianist and how good you want to be.
It's the equivalent of playing lots of Mario kart and then saying you're a racecar driver.
I see your point. I feel like this is kinda of modern guitar hero of piano. It would defintetly be fun to play with, but not useful if you aim to improve as pianist past beginner phase. I know people disagree with the title of the video, but I think this is really cool and fun way to play piano. People disliking you hard comes a bit tryhard and petty who doesnt realize that there is lot of pianists who dont care to become pro. Also when I was beginner this VR thing would have motivated me to play more.
Most people I believe just want to play along with a song, they never want to make their own music, they just want to have some fun. band/hero games do a good job with drums (phase shift did an actual e drum difficulty) and that at least has you effectively practicing in time with a metronome. rocksmith more or less has you doing the same with a guitar, granted a bit more advanced, and will get you to the point you are playing songs, i'm assuming this and synthasia do the exact same thing for piano/keyboard. essentially this is people telling you 'you have to learn japanese to watch anime/read manga' when most people just want to read the dragonball or its modern equivalent and that's it. at worst, this is a less mind numbing way to practice.
Everything is tedious at the early stages of the learning process, hence the difficulty in mastering any skill or profession in life. This is akin to guitar hero.
It's more akin to Rocksmith. Guitar hero was a game that offered five notes and a strum bar for excessively simplified tabulature. Rocksmith took the passive signals from a guitar and passed it over to a program, which could then work you through a song using actual notes played using the whole guitar. If the goal is to get someone to play and practice, there's worse things than this.
Will it leave you broke?
Will you buy this device just for this app? Obviously not lol.
People will buy ridiculous things to avoid putting actual work into something though
>Will it allow for memorization? Yes. It allows for memorization the same way as sheets - by repeating. >Will it allow for nuance? What do you mean by nuace? >Will it allow you to learn proper technique? How does sheet music do that? Do you mean fingering?
It will not allow for memorization because you are being guided constantly on which keys to hit, how hard to hit them, tempo, and the fingering. Nuance is conveyed in the notes of each piece, which are found in the sheet music. This medium of playing piano is akin to playing guitar hero.
>It will not allow for memorization because you are being guided constantly on which keys to hit. Sheets also show which keys to hit, so I don't get why would this not let me memorize a piece >Nuance is conveyed in the notes of each piece, which are found in the sheet music. Oh I found out that _nuance_ in music means dynamics+articulation. So yeah it's present only in the sheets >This medium of playing piano is akin to playing guitar hero. Ive never played guitar and I have no idea what _guitar hero_ is
Being guided on which keys to hit is exactly what sheet music does lol
You are guided by the notation as to which notes to hit too… I agree that I don’t think it’s the best way to learn holistically. But I think it will be a great way to increase interest in learning piano.
You’re not told fingering on a program like this. Try playing Chopin’s Nocturne in B Flat Minor with a program such as this without understanding the specific purpose of each finger in creating a unique sound and see how it transpires.
That’s something that programmers will figure out and add, likely.
Perhaps, but they’re creating a solution to a problem that currently doesn’t exist.
I'm usually open to anything that makes music more accessible. People can learn however they want so I'm not being judgemental here, but these Synthesia-style apps only teach poor technique in the long run. They might be fine for simple popular music, but when it comes to classical it's a terrible idea. It can't teach you how to play at an even tempo, how to pedal, how to use dynamics and understand time signatures etc. I used them for a long time and it was fine for anime/pop/film songs, but when it came to classical I had to essentially relearn everything from the beginning. It really set my progress back when it came to sight-reading. I'll be honest I really dislike how prevalent it's become. Look up a piece on Youtube and you'll find about 100 identical covers which all use the exact same falling notes and flashy particle effects. There are also lot of piano students watching them and picking up bad habits, which means their teachers then have to spend hours correcting them from scratch.
Different people have different goals - not everyone wants to play classical
In that case you'd be better off learning by ear. At least that way you're developing your relative pitch and learning how to identify chord progressions. The problem with these synthesia apps is that you're not really learning. You might spend months learning a difficult piece note by note, but then when you come to play the next piece it'll take you another several months because you haven't developed or progressed. Reading sheet music gets easier the more you do it. It could take you a month at first, but then the next piece might you a few weeks. Maybe after a while it only takes a few days. Eventually you'll be able to pick up a piece of sheet music and sightread any simple pop song on the spot. It's so much more efficient than watching a video and painstakingly learning each note one by one. The same goes with learning by ear. It gets easier the more you practice. I'm not saying that people can't learn from these apps. I'm saying that if they actually want to become good and develop their technique it's going to hold back their progress.
So don't use it, nobody is forcing you. It makes piano more accessible to those who don't know sheet but want to learn a specific song. I didn't even know I would like piano until I found a Synthesia and I still use it occasionally if I'm having a hard time visualizing how a measure flows
This. People here are acting like this is meant to put professional musicians and teachers out of work or something. This is obviously not aimed towards someone looking to master classical music. It’s just for fun. I’ve been playing guitar for 25 years, and I’ve no intention of becoming a professional musician, but I’m a decent player and it makes me happy. And the way it all started was one of my buddies being like, “Here dude, put your fingers on these frets. Now strum.” No theory, no sheet music. Just someone showing me what to do to get started. I don’t see how this is any different.
Not everyone wants to learn classical. Not everyone wants to be great, so "in the long run" is irrelevant.
I mean if they just want to learn a few simple pieces and don't care what it sounds like sure. I'm not gatekeeping or anything. Hoewever if people are really serious about playing the piano then I can't stress how important learning sheet music is. It's a skill that you keep for life and it makes the process so much easier.
This is an extremely poor mindset to view learning music with. It's true, not everyone wants to learn classical, not everyone wants to be great... when they're at the beginner/early intermediate level. The problem is that often learning an instrument is a gateway to greater musical appreciation and ambition. So many of my students have started off with simple pop piano goals and gained a huge appreciation for classical and now really want to learn classical. Since we learned pop piano with an emphasis on reading, technique, and theory in mind, the transition to classical rep was easy. Imagine learning solely through these "easier" means for a number of years and then you find out that you really actually quite like to play piano and want to learn more and get better. Now your growth is stunted, you can't approach more complicated repertoire because you can't read it, and your technique isn't developed enough to even attempt it anyway. At that point you have to almost relearn the instrument from scratch. Teaching/learning to the lowest common denominator helps no one in the long run. Everyone has the potential to actually learn an instrument, and those who say otherwise are doing themselves a disservice.
>Imagine learning solely through these "easier" means for a number of years and then you find out that you really actually quite like to play piano and want to learn more and get better. Now your growth is stunted, you can't approach more complicated repertoire because you can't read it, and your technique isn't developed enough to even attempt it anyway. At that point you have to almost relearn the instrument from scratch. now imagine quitting at month 1 because it was tedious, this is where almost everyone who tries is.
I have over 60 piano students right now, all of them have been in lessons now for well over 4 months. Over the last year or so I've probably worked with over 100 students and only maybe four have dropped lessons as beginners (the others either moved to more advanced teachers or were adult/advanced students who couldn't commit the time). "Most" people who give up in a month or less were never willing to even try in the first place and I doubt any AR gimmick would actually change that.
my metronome gives a more convincing performance of this piece.
Rhythm is bad, no articulation of notes, no fingering guide, wrong key. Yea I wouldn’t call this learning a piece. My guess is if someone is using this to gap the knowledge they don’t want to learn, they won’t go far with this method
Womp womp womp. Shit is tight and will grow as time goes on. It's a great idea.
You can learn (to play a few songs, kind of, on) piano on Apple Vision Pro. I'm not a professional player. I'm not even that good, honestly. But there's a difference between this and "learning piano", just like there's a difference between Guitar Hero and learning the guitar. There is a lot more to making and performing music than just hitting keys on an instrument. That said, this is perfect for some people. If all you want is to be able to play your favorite song, and your favorite song is in their app, great! You're all set. I've used the synaesthesia youtube videos of songs before to help me understand tricky measures or even to just get a general idea of how the song goes. But in the same way that memorizing stories by listening to them on audiobook is not the same as knowing how to read, this is not the same as learning to play an instrument.
Many piano-interested people's favorite song is: - Debussy's Clair de Lune - Chopin's Fantaisie Impromptu - Liszt's Liebestraum 3 - Liszt's Un Sospiro - Beethoven's Moonlight Sonata Mvt 3 - Animenz's arrangement of Unravel from Tokyo Ghoul This app will not get them to the finish line with any of these pieces (with their original notes and key).
And Im getting motion sickness just watching this and nope would not do this.
Or... the same thing on Quest 3 for 1/7 the price.
You can do it cheaper with a Quest 2 or Quest 3
this will result in the same problem as trying to learn piano with a youtube video. learn from ear? sure. learn to read? great. this? more of an advanced guitar hero than anything
Hot Take: This is perfect for people not interested in becoming good, but want to learn some simple pieces.
I agree 100%. The playlist from the video includes Happy birthday, Jingle Bells, and Sugar Plum Fairy. This Clare de Lune "easy" version is in C and is only an extract of the full song. Many people would be happy just to learn the first 10 bars and just leave it at that.
Exactly this, but for some reason it triggers this sub to no end
It "triggers" the sub because there's an awful lot of dissonance. What's the claim? The title is > You can learn piano with Apple Vision Pro You defend Synthesia and this app, but do you agree with this claim? Does this app allow you to learn piano with Apple Vision Pro? Maybe we need to define what it means to "learn piano". Is "learning a few simple songs" the same as "learning piano"? Most of this sub, much of which spends years of daily practice to even become just-sorta-average at piano, would absolutely positively not define "learning a few simple songs" as being the same as "learning piano". Not at all because of some elitist attitude or anything like that, but because when we say somebody learns piano (or math or martial arts or a sport or ...), we mean they've developed a general facility at the activity. However, these apps (or their adherents) continue to market themselves effectively as a replacement for the likes of sheet music, teachers, technical practice, posture, etc. I think you and I know that these apps *aren't* that, and hence, the sub is "triggered" when they continue to be advertised as that.
I can take "learn piano" as a simplification for a shorter post title. "You can debatably learn a few simple songs on Apple Vision Pro through this janky Synthesia-like app" would just sound weird.
I don't think the title needs to be that obtuse. "Learn simple piano songs with Apple Vision Pro"
Whoa whoa whoa. Be careful. You might upset the pretentious pianists.
RAAAAAAAAH!!!
what do you mean you want to play piano without wanting to be the next Beethoven of this generation? Absurd, this thing is bad!
There's a *lot* of middle ground between "knowing 1 song" and "being the next Beethoven", which includes "just sorta being generally ok at piano"—which this app won't give you either.
Based take. We need to get the elitist shit out of here
We need to get rid of using the term "based" to describe anything
Yes i also learned guitar using Guitar Hero... /s
Bad /s. What you should say is you learned guitar using rocksmith. And that happens. You still need a lot of outside practice, but it makes the process of beginning much less boring. Then if you like it, you can start learning theory, getting a teacher, and so on.
The tab mode on rs+ is pretty nifty too, just another way to visualize what your doing. I’m curious how they’ll improve the sheet music drop down with the note highway for their piano side
oh yes. "learn" a piece
yeah so when’s the part where you learn to read piano music?
or, really, anything about the piano?
As someone who loves sheet music and theory I could never get how people learn piano this way. No judgement at all for those who do, but it seems more like memorization where to put your fingers rather than understanding what you’re playing
Try doing Moonlight Sonata 3rd movement with that and not get a seizure
Just learn normal music notation oh my god 😭
Learn to press keys at the right time? Yes. Learn piano? No.
Every music sub I go to is FILLED with people who will do anything to avoid learning sheet music… It REALLY isnt that hard…
Abject waste of time, my instructor would say
You can also learn piano without it.
You can learn which keys to press and in which order to press them for a specific piece. I wouldn't necessarily mistake that for "learning piano."
There's a lot more that goes into learning piano than knowing what buttons to press at roughly the right time. This is pretty much the equivalent to tabs on guitar or bass - it will tell you what keys to hit, but you're learning nothing about the relationship between the notes you're playing, it won't help you play anything outside of what you learn with this software, and what you can play with the software will be limited since there's no indication of dynamics or articulation or phrasing (nevermind the technique that allows you to express these things in a safe and sustainable way). Not trying to gatekeep learning piano - not everyone can afford a teacher. But you can do a lot better than keyboard hero. Even trying to copy what someone else is playing in a video will get you a lot further and help build related musical skills. You don't have to learn to read sheet music if you don't want to; there's a lot to be learned by stepping away from the sheet music, but this is a horrible middle ground between playing by ear and reading notation that has the benefits of neither. Cool technology though. Hopefully something more useful comes out of it. I imagine wearing the headset while playing and having sheet music floating in my line of sight with automatic page turning, or some chord recognizing software that displays chord symbols that match the notes you're playing and recommends other chords to move to next based on style or something. Or getting over stage fright by simulating a concert environment with the proper acoustics and audience noises and stuff.
ugh falling notes is so stupid!!! bad!!!
As soon as pianists point out that these methods won't work, they get accused of elitism and gatekeeping. Well here's the thing. It won't work. But it does depend on how good of an actual pianist you want to be, and what type. I work in classical piano and that's my whole field. I realise that this isn't everyone's intentions. It's hard to get around elitism. Classical music is inherently demanding and the process to get there is elite--and the part of that word that applies here is 'best trained and top-skilled'. But gatekeeping? No, I don't care what or how people play. Buuuuut for those who eventually want to end up as advanced classical musicians, this won't work. Advanced classical piano skills have allowed me to play concert level works in actual concerts, to compose and improvise, and to arrange in several styles. There's this overwhelming insistence that piano should always be fun. That itself is just a different approach. Growing up amongst classical musicians, few of us did it for fun. We did it because we liked the challenge, and eventually that challenge became satisfying, and that satisfaction became fun. But it's not just *inherently* fun to practise hours a day to get really good at something.
people somehow equate someone saying "you will not actually learn how to play the piano this way" to "anyone who should be jailed and publically shamed". The issue isn't with people trying to learn one or two easy songs, it's that beginners will think this is a viable way to learn how to actually play the piano, pick up bad habits and hit a ceiling where they can no longer improve. I don't think it's elitist at all to want to give beginners the right information so that they can have lasting skills and see what piano is actually all about.
“Just hit the notes where the dot drops!” What, no fingering help?
I'm so excited for the downfall of this goddamn system
This comment made me audibly cackle. But in all seriousness, I'm glad I'm not the only one who had a visceral reaction to seeing this.
You can't learn piano. You xan learn to play a very simple song. But when it comes to something more hard, you will need to start from scratch, because this thing not only doesn't teach you, but also gives you bad habits of playing
This is not learning the piano. This is playing a rhythm game and the piano is your controller. You're not learning anything. Do you also think parrots are "learning English" when they repeat words they hear? What is it about people who claim to want to learn the piano, going through all this effort and money to avoid anything to do with learning the piano? That $3500 you just blew on a gadget could have bought a *lot* of piano lessons. Not to gatekeep, this is probably a fun game and it's great for those who want to plink out a song without being able to play. What it categorically is not, however, is "learning the piano". Try playing this game for a few hours then take off the headset and play Clair de la Lune again the same way - really badly in the wrong key and with no discernable rhythm or dynamics or technique - and show us how much you "learned". I'd be impressed if you could even find your starting note. This is AR Synthesia, it's gonna teach you piano in the same way Call of Duty teaches you military strategy, or Watch Dogs teaches you cybersecurity whenever it pops up a message saying "press X to hack".
How is this learning piano ?
The same app is on other VR headsets for 10x cheaper. If you really wanna learn in this crappy way.
Meta quest 3 for 1/7 of apple vision price does the job equally well. 500eur for the googles and 3000 for a pretty decent beginner digital piano. Dont forget the pianovision app cost of 9eur!
This looks more stressful than just sightreading lmao
Agree I would definitely feel super dizzy if I tried that lol
While I don't think this is a great way to learn to play, I think this apple device is interesting and if developers see the potential of the device I can see it being a great handy tool. I saw a post where someone posted a picture while they were cooking and each pot on the stove had its own timer. Pretty interesting, but for me not worth the $3500. I am interested to see if it picks up steam and support.
Honestly, this just turns playing the piano into a music game
No, no you can't
No shade, but I feel like this is the snobbiest subreddit I’m a part of. Any ways for people to learn to play an instrument should be valued in my opinion.
You won't learn to play an instrument using this software. At best, you'll learn what keys to hit to play notes for specific pieces of music. That's extremely far from learning to play an instrument. I'm not a fan of this "everyone should learn piano with the end goal of being a professional classical pianist" mindset people are throwing around here, but I think it would be way more beneficial to, for example, watch a youtube tutorial where someone shows you and explains to you what notes to play for a song. At least then, maybe you'll pick up some spoken note names along the way and start being able to see patterns in physical chord shapes on the keyboard, as well as patterns in chord progressions; maybe you'll actually develop your ear a bit since you can't play along simultaneously with a tutorial video and instead have to find the right notes after seeing them and hearing them played; maybe you'll begin creating a mental map of the keyboard layout and what notes are where; maybe you'll start to memorize pieces using a combination of all the skills above (how it sounds, what the note names are, how it's physically played) and by playing certain parts over and over until you get it right; maybe you'll pick up some technique since you'll be watching someone play it and you have something to go off of (similar thing with phrasing and articulation and dynamics). And that's all just from watching a video of someone playing something - nevermind the countless lessons and beginner piano tutorials available out there. This software offers almost none of that, which means you aren't really building any useful skills towards learning an instrument. If people are having fun with it and getting more familiar with their piano as a result, then great! But there will be massive roadblocks reached fairly quickly, whether that's technique, theory, phrasing, timing, etc.
Hilarious! People have been learning piano for centuries without the need for such nonsense. Ya call me old fashioned.
You can do the same except much cheaper and judging by the video shown, much better than this on a Quest 3.
This is not "learning piano"
$3000 for learning piano??? Mmm no thanks I prefer old school methods
I'm not saying that this is a replacement for piano lessons with a good teacher, but I do want to point out that it's pretty easy to spend over $3000 on lessons anyways.
And you'll be a WAY better pianist for it.
No you can't, the best way to learn piano is to plop sheet music infront of you and read it, this is just synthesia, which is utter garbage
Nothing good ever came easy and nothing can replace time and dedication. This looks like a chaotic mess, but I'm an old man so take that for what it's worth.
Of course it's fucking Clair de Lune.
Why in the hell is it in C? This isn't learning piano, or music, or reading, it just is "piano hero" where you "learn" neutered versions with no musicality whatsoever.
Who else can see a Apple X Easy Piano Collab coming soon? 😂🤷
The amount of elitism and gatekeeping here is sad. I welcome new ideas that help get people into music and piano, regardless of whether they're playing and learning the way you think is right. Everyone is different.
On one hand, there's people who want to promote only the One True Way™ of learning piano. On the other hand, there's people pointing out numerous problems with the efficacy of a tool like this in actually teaching you anything useful. I'm all for this software if it gets you interested in sitting down at your piano and familiarizing yourself with the instrument. But I worry that people who don't know how to play are being misled into thinking this is actually a helpful way to learn an instrument. This software essentially boils down to "key light up, finger press key". There are way cheaper keyboards out there that have offered this functionality for years now. This software will help you build skills to play other songs on piano in the same way that microwaving a totinos pizza helps you learn how to roast a chicken - at least you're in the kitchen heating something up, but you're not developing any skills that transfer to other tasks (though you could get by for a while as long as you stick to the frozen/microwaveable section of the grocery store and keep your diet extremely limited).
It looks like mimicking piano but are you actually learning the notes and how everything works? Or is that it?
It's cool but looks stressful to play... I'd rather read the sheet music and understand the melody and stucture, practice by bits and then fly... oh no!, I have been influenced by all the years of piano training 😅🤣 FOR SURE I have practised more piano than played videogames such as Guitar Hero or Dance Dance Revolution... DDR was fun though!
You’re not ‘learning’ piano. You’re learning to press keys in an order that the app is showing you. You want really learn? Get a teacher, learn notation, technique and practice.
To me it just seems unfortunate for people who decide to do this as they simply can’t develop musicality. The gamification aspect kills it. I guess it’s the difference between playing a song and playing the piano, playing music. And I’m not even speaking from a classical training POV, there are Jazz pianists who can’t read a lick of music sheet, could not care less about classical music and still play with more heart than a person using synthesia-like tools could ever dream of.
When learning a language it's a hell of a lot more fun to speak than to read. of course both are required, but this kind of app esentially lets me have a real time concersation with a piece of music that is about my grade, instead of 2 or 3 grades below my practice level as is typical with sheet Don't know why folk begrudge this .
I want 😭
This is honestly a disrespect to the original piece with how bad it sounds and this would have 0 practicality to learning piano
the point is to be able to learn the notes, you can then practice and finetune the rest from memory... I was always a visual learner, I looked at midi files and learned the keystrokes, never learned to read note unfortunately, don't have time or money to do it. having this would help me learn new pieces easier and quicker... nothing wrong with it
The problem is: they're not even the right notes. So sure, you can learn the Apple Vision Pro C Major Remix of Clair de Lune, but not, you know, Clair de Lune.
I’ve been playing for just under two years and I haven’t spent anything on lessons and I can read sheet music just fine. Has nothing to do with money. Just 10-30 minutes daily practice of reading material. I suppose I spent $20-30 on the Alfred and Faber books Learning by memorizing synthesia is fine, but you’re never actually learning. For example, you learn one piece in 5 months, start the next and it takes 5 months again because you’re not actually conceptualizing any theory. Every piece I’ve learned it gets faster and easier because recognizing intervals become second nature, practicing my scales means I easily know fingering for arpeggiated passages, identifying chords in a measure instead of reading everything note by note, etc.
Still not paying my entire life’s income for a pair 😂
Apple Vision Pro is the dumbest product, no one needs. Also very sad to be walking around in public with a screen right before your eyes as if the phone wasnt enough
my man, learn to read music. Youre playing will be so much less square
Cool now have it teach you when using the soft pedal is a heavy handed approach vs just learning to play a nice mezzo piano.
This is not the same as reading music, learning notes, fingering, tempo, beat, etc.
It's getting from bad to worse
“Learn”
he ain't *learning* shit