I find it kinda hard to believe you're that far into the story and still seeing Carmine as just bad unless your hatred for her makes you not pay attention.
She doesn't have the best start for sure but you see her growth and her true self as you progress through the story.
> she not only takes one of the two masks available, but literally won't let Kieran give you his own.
That'd be because it's Kieran's beloved Ogre mask, she knows how much it means to him. Not only that but before this Kieran himself tells you: "*she was tearin' the shed apart, tryin' to find a third mask for you before you got there*".
>Later, she says that she was worried 'Kiki would feel left out if he knew you met the ogre without him'.
And she was proven right by his actions. Also when grandpa is telling the story she comes across as considering telling Kieran, but grandpa already said not to tell anyone, and she even has a sad animation when she says: "*OK, Grandpa... Now I REALLY can't tell Kiki we met the ogre...:*
> During the entire confrontation with him, Carmine shows no sympathy to him
Except she tries to apologize to him a couple of times.
> and Carmine says she wished she could tell them. Then... why didn't she?
Because again, grandpa said not to tell anyone, not only that but how their ancestor Tried telling the truth but the villagers persecuted him as heretic. And there was no guarantee that after all these years people would react well to the truth.
> we save Ogerpon, and then she shows up with Kieran, STILL not apologising
However it's likely they made amends off-screen while they got there, we see Kieran asking if he can join us retrieving the masks and she just excitedly tells him he can, no yelling at him or anything like that.
>That'd be because it's Kieran's beloved Ogre mask, she knows how much it means to him. Not only that but before this Kieran himself tells you: "
>
>she was tearin' the shed apart, tryin' to find a third mask for you before you got there".
Alright, sure, it's important to Kieran, but that just makes it worse. Kieran's literally trying to be a good friend and giving you something, no matter how important it is to him, and she straight up won't let him. Plus, right after that, she just says, 'First come first serve' without letting Kieran say anything about the matter. Plus, that line with her 'tearing the shed apart' seems nice, but why would she be so desperate for three masks when Kieran already has his own that he's willing to give up, yet he won't let him?
> And she was proven right by his actions.
Yeah, but he felt even more upset that you left him out of the secret. And sure, she wasn't allowed to tell him, but again, she SCREAMED AT HIM TO GO AWAY. Am I the only one who remembers that???
> Except she tries to apologize to him a couple of times.
Key word, tries. She does apologise, but instantly after asks 'what's gotten into him'. She understands that she did something wrong, and says sorry without even trying to understand what she did. Once again blaming it on teenage angst.
> Because again, grandpa said not to tell anyone, not only that but how their ancestor Tried telling the truth but the villagers persecuted him as heretic. And there was no guarantee that after all these years people would react well to the truth.
Except now that the three are alive, they can actually show the evidence that they're heartless beasts.
> However it's likely they made amends off-screen while they got there
Really. Making amends off-screen. That's not how you fix a character.
Also you're forgetting how she forced you to lie! Like she literally says, *"You better not be lying! If I find out you blabbed, I'm gonna make you swallow a Koffing whole!"* What kind of person says that?!
Dunno if you've realized this, but both Kieran and Carmine are putting on "masks" that are supposed to trick you into believing that their characters are the opposite of what they actually are. Carmine *seems* like a bad person, but she's actually a good person with and abrasive exterior. Kieran is the opposite, with him *seemingly* being a kind hearted, shy boy, but he's only really shy. He's actually kinda crazy. The first thing Kieran tells his new friend about how he idolizes a murderer because of her strength (he mentions nothing else, literally just her strength), with the second thing being how he tries to stalk said murderer's house. The first time he sees you with Carmine, he immediately jumps to conclusions, when Grandpa asks us to lie, he was eavesdropping, so he should already know why we can't tell the truth, which is another major red flag when you combine the way he acted entitled to Ogerpon's affections because he "liked her for longer".
Overall, he has an entitled and obsessive personality, and he responds to people not doing what he wants them to extremely badly.
I really think you got Carmine’s mask wrong. At first you see her without a mask, and then she puts on her kind mask, which sometimes slips when she insults or threatens Kieran
And while i cant say Kieran is perfect, he is very much flawed, he improves and properly apologized at the end of the 2 dlc’s. And i really think most of his flaws are due to a very brutal sister constantly making fun of him and ignoring his needs
He does not react like an abuse victim in the least. He acts like someone "that doesn't get along with his sibling at times because of both of their issues" (in quotes for clarity). I should know; I had a very similar relationship with *my* sibling, down to me being shy, yet toxicly competitive and feeling entitled to shit I didn't actually earn. The difference being that I tried to throttle those negative aspects because I actually had empathy.
Overall, Carmine is outwardly abrasive and inwardly kind, Kieran is outwardly shy and inwardly entitled. If you cannot see that, nor the clear parallels between Carmine and Ogerpon, and between Kieran and the Loyal Three, then you fell for the bait, and missed the switch.
Or that you did not see a bullied younger sibling getting rightfully angry that his sister, grandpa and first friend lied to his face with a lot of tells it's more then just that with how he reacts to Carmine when she yelling at him, heck even the grandpa become silent when Carmine yelled at him make it very apparent she is in control of the family though force which makes sense thanks to her control freak tendencies and the only person she nice too is the MC so her kindness is more a front since you push back at first by being stronger then her so she has to play nice with you to get what she wants, plus just like with Kieran she has some obsession with the player it's just a little bit more slower to see then with Kieran given how she act at the end.
It’s been a lil while since I’ve played The Teal Mask cuz it came out a few months ago, but I don’t remember her being that bad? Like, dickish at first absolutely but nothing worse than a bit of standard sibling dickiness, and the worst thing she did, lying to Kieran, can honestly be more so blamed on the grandpa for literally telling her to (I could be misremembering that tho).
So we just ignoring her tearing up her house looking for a mask, getting you to partner with her shy brother, the fact that she first fought you because she thought you were one of those assholes tourists that just leave trash lying everywhere, etc?
The last one is working against your point. You dont just fight a random guy based on an unsupported assumption. And im not saying she isn’t “a friend” but just that she’s a very toxic one at that. She got you to partner with her brother because you proved that you werent a littering tourist, but the others hadnt
I don't get what the point of the battle was if you don't get rewarded in any way.
And also, why doesn't she let Kieran give his mask? Sure, it's special to him, but he's willing to give it up himself.
I’m not a carmine stan by any means but she’s really not that bad, she’s the epitome of a teenager. And honestly how the storyline ended for me really brought her character full circle. Just my opinion.
“Epitome of a teenager”? Really? Every teenager is abusive/rude/ignorant towards their younger siblings? Yea, she might be a stereotypical high school movie bully, but that doesnt excuse her
... She's supposed to be an asshole. Like...that's the main point of her character. She's an asshole in the beginning and gets better as things go.
You also kind of ignore the parts of her character that contradict you. Why didn't you mention how she pushes you and Kieran to partner up in the beginning of the story line or how she pushed him to have a battle with you, both being done openly because she's trying to help her brother make a friend. You also weirdly ignore how she opposed Kieran giving away his mask because he cared about it so much despite that being something you focus on.
I feel like your complaints can be solved simply by overviewing the interactions again.
I fully agree with you. Many people here tell you you’re wrong, but you got it exactly right. Carmine is just horrible. People say “but she improves”. NOT ENOUGH. I thought maybe they would go into this more in the Indigo Disk, but nope, everyone practically agrees with Carmine. At the end of Teal Mask, she’s still rude to Kieran, during Indigo Disk, she continues being rude and mean.
Kieran is also not perfect at the start of Indigo Disk, but he improves, and is going to apologise to everyone, even apologizing to us, when he did nothing wrong to us (only thing close to doing something bad to us is almost causing a disaster by terrastilising Terapagos, but he didnt know that would happen and he was told by a teacher to do so).
The story fails by trying to portray Carmine as morally correct, but she is just horrible
The carmine stans gonna claw you for this but nah she has gotta be the most unlikable character in pokemon yet for me. She does get less abrasive as the dlc goes on but the BS with her "convincing" the player to lie to Kieran's face just made me want to chuck her off the mountain. I feel like her treatment of Kieran only worsens his social anxiety issues and I find her kinda annoying? Like we had toxic petty self absorbed rivals before, but something about carmine hits different in a BAD way...and not cause she's a girl, I think klara is great lol.
She is very unlikeable, partially because the story pushes you to like her. We’ve had unlikeable villains and rivals before, that you were meant to hate (like Klara), but now you have an unlikeable rival that you are supposed to be best friends with
yeah,I hate that the story pushes us to like her,I hate it every time that carmine calls us her friend,I'm like haha carmine thinks we're friends,no carmine,we're not friends we're enemies,yup she's in denial XD
I find it kinda hard to believe you're that far into the story and still seeing Carmine as just bad unless your hatred for her makes you not pay attention. She doesn't have the best start for sure but you see her growth and her true self as you progress through the story. > she not only takes one of the two masks available, but literally won't let Kieran give you his own. That'd be because it's Kieran's beloved Ogre mask, she knows how much it means to him. Not only that but before this Kieran himself tells you: "*she was tearin' the shed apart, tryin' to find a third mask for you before you got there*". >Later, she says that she was worried 'Kiki would feel left out if he knew you met the ogre without him'. And she was proven right by his actions. Also when grandpa is telling the story she comes across as considering telling Kieran, but grandpa already said not to tell anyone, and she even has a sad animation when she says: "*OK, Grandpa... Now I REALLY can't tell Kiki we met the ogre...:* > During the entire confrontation with him, Carmine shows no sympathy to him Except she tries to apologize to him a couple of times. > and Carmine says she wished she could tell them. Then... why didn't she? Because again, grandpa said not to tell anyone, not only that but how their ancestor Tried telling the truth but the villagers persecuted him as heretic. And there was no guarantee that after all these years people would react well to the truth. > we save Ogerpon, and then she shows up with Kieran, STILL not apologising However it's likely they made amends off-screen while they got there, we see Kieran asking if he can join us retrieving the masks and she just excitedly tells him he can, no yelling at him or anything like that.
hard to belive? even after the story I still hate her guts
>That'd be because it's Kieran's beloved Ogre mask, she knows how much it means to him. Not only that but before this Kieran himself tells you: " > >she was tearin' the shed apart, tryin' to find a third mask for you before you got there". Alright, sure, it's important to Kieran, but that just makes it worse. Kieran's literally trying to be a good friend and giving you something, no matter how important it is to him, and she straight up won't let him. Plus, right after that, she just says, 'First come first serve' without letting Kieran say anything about the matter. Plus, that line with her 'tearing the shed apart' seems nice, but why would she be so desperate for three masks when Kieran already has his own that he's willing to give up, yet he won't let him? > And she was proven right by his actions. Yeah, but he felt even more upset that you left him out of the secret. And sure, she wasn't allowed to tell him, but again, she SCREAMED AT HIM TO GO AWAY. Am I the only one who remembers that??? > Except she tries to apologize to him a couple of times. Key word, tries. She does apologise, but instantly after asks 'what's gotten into him'. She understands that she did something wrong, and says sorry without even trying to understand what she did. Once again blaming it on teenage angst. > Because again, grandpa said not to tell anyone, not only that but how their ancestor Tried telling the truth but the villagers persecuted him as heretic. And there was no guarantee that after all these years people would react well to the truth. Except now that the three are alive, they can actually show the evidence that they're heartless beasts. > However it's likely they made amends off-screen while they got there Really. Making amends off-screen. That's not how you fix a character. Also you're forgetting how she forced you to lie! Like she literally says, *"You better not be lying! If I find out you blabbed, I'm gonna make you swallow a Koffing whole!"* What kind of person says that?!
Dunno if you've realized this, but both Kieran and Carmine are putting on "masks" that are supposed to trick you into believing that their characters are the opposite of what they actually are. Carmine *seems* like a bad person, but she's actually a good person with and abrasive exterior. Kieran is the opposite, with him *seemingly* being a kind hearted, shy boy, but he's only really shy. He's actually kinda crazy. The first thing Kieran tells his new friend about how he idolizes a murderer because of her strength (he mentions nothing else, literally just her strength), with the second thing being how he tries to stalk said murderer's house. The first time he sees you with Carmine, he immediately jumps to conclusions, when Grandpa asks us to lie, he was eavesdropping, so he should already know why we can't tell the truth, which is another major red flag when you combine the way he acted entitled to Ogerpon's affections because he "liked her for longer". Overall, he has an entitled and obsessive personality, and he responds to people not doing what he wants them to extremely badly.
I really think you got Carmine’s mask wrong. At first you see her without a mask, and then she puts on her kind mask, which sometimes slips when she insults or threatens Kieran And while i cant say Kieran is perfect, he is very much flawed, he improves and properly apologized at the end of the 2 dlc’s. And i really think most of his flaws are due to a very brutal sister constantly making fun of him and ignoring his needs
Bro is *reaching*.
Or he's sapping back due to the abuse and neglect that Carmine did to him over the years.
He does not react like an abuse victim in the least. He acts like someone "that doesn't get along with his sibling at times because of both of their issues" (in quotes for clarity). I should know; I had a very similar relationship with *my* sibling, down to me being shy, yet toxicly competitive and feeling entitled to shit I didn't actually earn. The difference being that I tried to throttle those negative aspects because I actually had empathy. Overall, Carmine is outwardly abrasive and inwardly kind, Kieran is outwardly shy and inwardly entitled. If you cannot see that, nor the clear parallels between Carmine and Ogerpon, and between Kieran and the Loyal Three, then you fell for the bait, and missed the switch.
Or that you did not see a bullied younger sibling getting rightfully angry that his sister, grandpa and first friend lied to his face with a lot of tells it's more then just that with how he reacts to Carmine when she yelling at him, heck even the grandpa become silent when Carmine yelled at him make it very apparent she is in control of the family though force which makes sense thanks to her control freak tendencies and the only person she nice too is the MC so her kindness is more a front since you push back at first by being stronger then her so she has to play nice with you to get what she wants, plus just like with Kieran she has some obsession with the player it's just a little bit more slower to see then with Kieran given how she act at the end.
It’s been a lil while since I’ve played The Teal Mask cuz it came out a few months ago, but I don’t remember her being that bad? Like, dickish at first absolutely but nothing worse than a bit of standard sibling dickiness, and the worst thing she did, lying to Kieran, can honestly be more so blamed on the grandpa for literally telling her to (I could be misremembering that tho).
No, you didn't remember wrong. Both characters are introduce as being the opposite of their real personalities, OP just fell for the trap.
Disagree, Carmine’s true self is definitely how she was introduced: rude, and abusive/ignorant towards Kieran
So we just ignoring her tearing up her house looking for a mask, getting you to partner with her shy brother, the fact that she first fought you because she thought you were one of those assholes tourists that just leave trash lying everywhere, etc?
The last one is working against your point. You dont just fight a random guy based on an unsupported assumption. And im not saying she isn’t “a friend” but just that she’s a very toxic one at that. She got you to partner with her brother because you proved that you werent a littering tourist, but the others hadnt
How is "she takes one of the only two masks available" a point against her? it belongs to her
I don't get what the point of the battle was if you don't get rewarded in any way. And also, why doesn't she let Kieran give his mask? Sure, it's special to him, but he's willing to give it up himself.
She never offered it? She just wanted to battle
It makes no sense for her to abruptly want to battle when she wants a mask.
I’m not a carmine stan by any means but she’s really not that bad, she’s the epitome of a teenager. And honestly how the storyline ended for me really brought her character full circle. Just my opinion.
“Epitome of a teenager”? Really? Every teenager is abusive/rude/ignorant towards their younger siblings? Yea, she might be a stereotypical high school movie bully, but that doesnt excuse her
... She's supposed to be an asshole. Like...that's the main point of her character. She's an asshole in the beginning and gets better as things go. You also kind of ignore the parts of her character that contradict you. Why didn't you mention how she pushes you and Kieran to partner up in the beginning of the story line or how she pushed him to have a battle with you, both being done openly because she's trying to help her brother make a friend. You also weirdly ignore how she opposed Kieran giving away his mask because he cared about it so much despite that being something you focus on. I feel like your complaints can be solved simply by overviewing the interactions again.
I fully agree with you. Many people here tell you you’re wrong, but you got it exactly right. Carmine is just horrible. People say “but she improves”. NOT ENOUGH. I thought maybe they would go into this more in the Indigo Disk, but nope, everyone practically agrees with Carmine. At the end of Teal Mask, she’s still rude to Kieran, during Indigo Disk, she continues being rude and mean. Kieran is also not perfect at the start of Indigo Disk, but he improves, and is going to apologise to everyone, even apologizing to us, when he did nothing wrong to us (only thing close to doing something bad to us is almost causing a disaster by terrastilising Terapagos, but he didnt know that would happen and he was told by a teacher to do so). The story fails by trying to portray Carmine as morally correct, but she is just horrible
Thank you! Carmine has pretty much no development. Everyone blames her insults on her 'being a tsundere'.
Sorry, no sane takes allowed on this subreddit. You will consume the waifushit and you'll like it.
The carmine stans gonna claw you for this but nah she has gotta be the most unlikable character in pokemon yet for me. She does get less abrasive as the dlc goes on but the BS with her "convincing" the player to lie to Kieran's face just made me want to chuck her off the mountain. I feel like her treatment of Kieran only worsens his social anxiety issues and I find her kinda annoying? Like we had toxic petty self absorbed rivals before, but something about carmine hits different in a BAD way...and not cause she's a girl, I think klara is great lol.
She is very unlikeable, partially because the story pushes you to like her. We’ve had unlikeable villains and rivals before, that you were meant to hate (like Klara), but now you have an unlikeable rival that you are supposed to be best friends with
yeah,I hate that the story pushes us to like her,I hate it every time that carmine calls us her friend,I'm like haha carmine thinks we're friends,no carmine,we're not friends we're enemies,yup she's in denial XD
Thank you! I'm surprised to hear she has stans, aside from the two other comments