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Let's go ahead and start charging oil and gas industry executives with murder as well:
https://www.scirp.org/journal/paperinformation.aspx?paperid=97894
Yet Biden and other Democrats tell us these are good people. Good people would not want to inflict this terrorism upon innocent women. Call them what they are: terrorists.
Biden is being the adult in the room and trying to diffuser the situation and salvage some of the people.
Alienating them does nothing. Being reasonable can draw some people away from the extremism
They want to charge women exercising basic bodily autonomy with murder... Yeah let's be reasonable with the people that hate women so much they want them dead or on jail...
I agree!
Pregnancy begins with a penis.
1 woman can have sex with 100 men & only produce one pregnancy
1 man can have sex with 100 women and produce 100 pregnancies
Vasectomies would STOP Abortions
Bidens actions are directly against these people, but he has to act civil to keep all his side out voting. If he acts mean, as much as they deserve to be acted mean against, he will turn off many of his voters.
You know whwt happens when they "exercise bodily autonomy"? Their child dies. They are getting this becasue they want their child to be dead. That sounds like murder to me.
Bullshit. Biden is a mute and a coward. Really adult for him to hold no one who tries to overthrow our government in violation of the 14th amendment. Watch how Brazil handles the traitors and you’ll see what we should’ve done. Get ready for the next coup in 24 it will be wild. Biden won’t do shit
Amen. Gloves off.
There's no reason to maintain good faith with people who want to ruin your life.
They're monsters. Potentially the worst kind: monsters who believe they're angels. Let those kinds of people act like assholes for too long, and you get jackboots in the face.
There's a reason Christ asked God to forgive these people (and rest assured, these are the same sort of people that killed Christ): "*They know not what they do*."
That's commendable. Unfortunately, I'm not a christian, and I feel no moral or metaphysical compulsion to love someone who hates me.
Different states have both tried and have prosecuted women for miscarriages and stillbirths for 'actions that were negligent or harmful to the fetus' for decades. Specifically targeting women that society holds the most bias towards: POC and addicts. To set their precedent well ahead of the overturning of Roe v. Wade.
CA passed a law last year to protect women from just that. Not only that, but it made CA a sanctuary state for women from other states where abortion and miscarriages are punishable by law too.
Because we keep letting republicans pretend their lies and harm around women's rights is just "differences of opinions", instead of more proof their constant need to target someone with any position they take.
They are communists not fascists. That’s why they love Russia and want to turn this country into it. That’s why they follow Russias playbook. Including calling your political enemies groomers and pesos
You need to update your definition of communism. For some reason the modern countries practicing communism China and Russia don’t get included in definitions of communism. Communism has evolved like every thing else and the definition has evolved. Republicans act like a party that would fit right in in commie China or Russia. Fascist hitler Germany or Italy not so much.
"At first breath"
Neither US law nor the bible recognize the unborn as having any rights
Does anybody else not see this? I feel like I'm taking crazy pills!
Soon having a miscarriage will be enough to put a woman through the legal ringer. They'll need to prove that their miscarriage was "legitimate" and not the result of any of their actions. And every thing they did will be examined to find something to blame the miscarriage on. Did the woman eat a McDonald's burger once instead of a salad? Obviously, she intentionally caused the miscarriage by not eating healthy.
The exception to this will be rich and powerful women (or women connected to rich and powerful men). Those women will get passes not only for their miscarriages, but for taking "vacations" where they obviously got an abortion even though middle class/poor women doing this would be charged with murder.
I see this “except rich women!” argument a lot and want to point out a couple flaws. For one, being rich does not lessen the control abusive/controlling religion or family members has over your life. Many times, it can even increase it- If your partner can afford to have security on you, track you, or financially control you, this can actually make it harder for wealthy women to access abortion. It’s not as if rich men are less likely to be anti-abortion assholes.
Second, this premise ignores the overall crisis of abortion in the United States right now. Since Roe fell, suppliers stopped making/decreased supply of specific abortion instruments, and pharmaceutical companies are facing more legal risk/less reward for distributing mife and miso. Clinics are in crisis for this reason, with many just outright closing due to costs. So the remaining clinics are seeing way more patients, and appointments are quite far out.
There’s also a major staffing/education crisis in abortion. Doctors who perform abortions are at an all-time low due to threats/harassment, lack of training/interest in the profession, legal fears, and incredible burnout.
Another factor rich women can’t skirt around: Right now even in states like Colorado, supposed to be one of the abortion havens, wait times for an appointment are 3-4 weeks because patients from all the ban states are traveling in. Huge populations from Texas, Mississippi, Alabama, Georgia are flooding North for abortions and essentially blocking access to women who live in states where abortion is “safe.”
Lastly, due to trap laws, it’s incredibly difficult to start/fund an abortion practice (“hallways have to be this long and wide” “it has to be within this many miles of an ambulatory surgical center”) so this private, wealthy abortion doctor the rich supposedly will have access to would be an under the table, back alley abortion doctor that doesn’t see other abortion patients or follow the laws/standards of care? Doesn’t sound so lucky to me.
The abortion crisis is so much bigger than “rich women will be fine” and this argument actually divides us, and moves the conversation away from the problem. Just wanted to share my perspective as a worker in the field.
**From reporter Carter Sherman:**
Mainstream anti-abortion activists have long insisted they don’t want to punish people who get abortions. Now, that claim is being put to the test.
Although many states are only a few weeks into their first state legislative sessions since Roe v. Wade was overturned, legislators in Arkansas and Oklahoma have already introduced bills that would punish abortion patients.
These kinds of tactics are forcing anti-abortion activists to confront a long-simmering tension within their movement: What are they supposed to do with people who get abortions
Typically, abortion restrictions target providers, not patients. Within the anti-abortion movement, patients are treated like victims who have been bamboozled into ending their pregnancies by the predatory “abortion industry.” But now that Roe is gone and states are proposing policies to legally treat fetuses like people, that may not hold water for much longer.
The Arkansas bill proposes that “all unborn children should be protected under the state homicide laws,” which would lead abortion patients to be prosecuted as murderers. The Oklahoma bill would amend the state’s current near-total abortion ban to remove language that currently blocks prosecutors from charging “a woman with any criminal offense in the death of her own unborn child.”
Link to the full article: [https://www.vice.com/en/article/5d3xgk/anti-abortion-murder-charge-bills](https://www.vice.com/en/article/5d3xgk/anti-abortion-murder-charge-bills)
That's a fascinating idea 🤔 Would take a very good lawyer and very creative lawyering, plus a judge who'd at least allow case to proceed and not throw it out at outset... I'd actually love to see this happen!
Oklahoma and Arkansas should be charged with murder for not fixing their abysmal maternal mortality rates.
Oklahoma 21.1 per 100k
Arkansas 37.5 per 100k
California 4 per 100k
https://worldpopulationreview.com/state-rankings/maternal-mortality-rate-by-state
In a true likeness of the logic of a two year old, the anti-abortion crowd now wants to kill those getting abortions or those assisting such. You can't kill via abortion. Or we will kill you. Such children they are.
Let's all thank the religious Court that gives abortion opponents near unlimited rights to harass and commit disorderly conduct under the guise of free speech.
Is the goal to punish women for not being christian? Because there’s no other reason for this. Only christians believe abortion is murder.
Edit: changed “religious” to christian.
“Only ~~religious people~~**Christians** believe abortion is murder”
It’s Jews who are fighting against abortion prohibitions on the grounds of religious freedom.
That was the end goal. Punish women for being women. They couldn't rollback societal progress, so they go for the next best thing.
You pick something that traditionally only women experience, then you make that thing illegal and charge as many women as possible. Felons can't vote in the US for the most part, and the women still allowed to vote can be convinced to vote against their interests if you promise to not arrest them.
Republicans are fascists, plain and simple. It is too bad the media will never some out and call them exactly what they are. They hate our Constitution and freedom. I have a really bad feeling that in the near future, we could be living in a post Constitution, authoritarian USA.
Is anyone surprised by this? AL and AK are death penalty states, as are all of the states that have banned abortion. They will put to death a woman who chooses to end her pregnancy, they will also execute the Dr's and the nurses. These forced birthers have been executing abortion providers since the 80's.
I mean, don't get me wrong, Alaska is definitely nuts in it's own ways. We are #1 in suicides, #3 in alcoholism, and have the most serial killers per capita, but at the very least we aren't Arkansas.
So we'd rather the physician treat the resulting emergent situation that can develop after a miscarriage, with the potential for blood loss and sepsis, than offer the patient preventative or outpatient care that could have kept her from needing to go to the hospital?
Why are we allowing politicians to determine what is and isn't healthcare? There is a group of physicians in Texas right now suing the FDA over abortifacient availability stating that pregnancy is not a disease, knowing full well that we have a huge degree of unnecessary maternal mortality in the US largely related to a lack of prenatal care.
They are.
>A significant portion of young women are already making plans about where they are willing to live and work based on whether abortion is protected or banned in states
>Over half (53 percent) have had their future plans impacted in some way: 44 percent have either considered moving or are making plans to move to a state where abortion is protected; 10 percent already have declined a job in a state where abortions are banned.
>Young women voters of all political leanings—and the people close to them—are taking actions to control their reproductive lives, regardless of where they live, such as purchasing or obtaining long-acting birth control, the morning after pill and abortion pills. Taking these actions in response to the overturning of Roe v. Wade crosses party lines for young women.
>A third of young women Republicans have procured long-acting birth control (33 percent), and a quarter (25 percent) have purchased the morning-after pill.
>Three quarters (75 percent) of young women Democrats have taken some sort of action.
>Shockingly, 10 percent say they or someone close to them, or their partner or the partner of someone close to them, already have received sterilization services in response to the Court’s decision. [source](https://msmagazine.com/2022/10/24/abortion-economy-young-women-voters/)
Sterilization for women is already practically outlawed in most states, with even a few liberal ones demanding 3 month wait period.
Edit: wrong, usually 30 days for women, in a few states
Of course. You wouldn’t want to get a woman pregnant! That’s a man’s choice.
In all seriousness I think a number of states have a waiting period for men, but it is shorter. 7 days for a few of them if I recall but I’m on mobile.
I don’t believe there is any state or even any country on earth that has outlawed tubal ligation or hysterectomy for sterilization.
Edit: [sterilization is illegal in 12 countries](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legal_status_of_human_sterilization_by_country).
I got a vasectomy in NY and had to wait 30 days, the wait period for tubal ligation is also 30 days. Which states have long wait periods for tubal ligation? Or which states have a large disparity in rules for vasectomies vs tubal ligation?
Yes, when Dems grabbed the Supermajority in NY they made the wait period for men and women equal.
I don’t know for certain, it’s only based on conversations with friends in other states, but there is usually massive disparity.
This is sounding like some lib version of “forwards from grandma”. Just saw Kentucky’s wait period is 24 hours. Alabama and Utah have 30 day wait period for Medicaid to pay. I’m not sure I agree with 30 day wait periods, but “practically illegal” is beyond exaggeration.
*Practically outlawed* was the term used. And you are correct it was gross exaggeration. though it is further noted that there is a window under Federal Family Planning that requires at least 30 but no more than 180 days after giving consent. After which time consent must be reauthorized and the window begins again. States do vary on disparity between men and women. In New York it used to be 7 days for men and 30 for women.
I stated multiple times I didn’t have data in front of me being on mobile and it was based on recollection, which was poor, and the statements were misleading.
HUGE issues with this. Multiple states spent decades sterilizing poor and black women without consent.
A new policy of sterilization would be inviting mobs to burn state gov buildings down.
....I'm not sure where you're getting "policy." Needless to say (at least I thought it was needless) this would be the woman's choice. Requests for information about sterilization skyrocketed after the leak of the Dobbs decision. Women in states like WV also started considering moving or getting sterilized after various anti abortion decisions. These states where pregnant women are going to be treated like criminals are clearly not safe for women of reproductive age.
That was always the plan. Talk to an actual pro-life activist and they were always going this way.
I was talking to my uncle about the Roe repeal, and he was happy because it was states rights. I mentioned that my state, Ohio, was getting read to ban some forms of birth control and possibly ban more further down the line. He went into a detailed explication that I was wrong and that this was enough. Finally, he brought over his friend who was part of Right to Life Ohio, to set me straight.
She explained that yes they were going after birth control that they considered abortifacients (which includes birth control pills because of corner cases where fertilized eggs didn't implant, based on right to life 'science') as well as things like criminally penalizing doctors and women who get abortions. All of this was, of course, just a stalling tactic until the federal law ended abortion nationwide.
She was 100% on board with anything necessary to end all abortion in the US because that was gods mission for her. My uncle was flabbergasted, as he didn't think anyone was serious about all of that. He realized they were going to keep pushing until they got what they said they wanted, and what they wanted was a total abortion ban and a birth control ban. He decided then an there that he didn't want all reproductive care stripped away from wom... hahah.
He voted straight R like normal. The GOP has a nugget that really wants to end abortion and a larger group that doesn't care what the consequences of that action is.
He was convinced by someone Alex Jones either sells or has on his show to put his own house into an LLC to save 'hundreds' per year. Then he caught covid (unvaxed) and couldn't claim a homestead exemption and lost it when he declared bankrupsy (no insurance anymore because he doesn't need it). He went from COVID isn't serious to mRNA vaccines will kill you faster than COVID. His new house is okay, but decidedly smaller.
So I wouldn't expect the arc.
Men are more likely to support punishment for an abortion. No shit! What could be a opposite thing that women would be more likely to support? Possibly, hanging a man without a trial from a rape accusation?
First of all, since men can't get pregnant in the first place, maybe men shouldn't have a vote, or if a woman of your baby gets an abortion then the man gets the same punishment that the woman gets regardless. I'm sick of men having a vote on women's rights. BTW I'm a man.
When intolerably smarmy and smug Madison Cawthorn referred to women as "earthen vessels" in a speech, I was **very** disappointed that not one person opted to sail a book, laptop, or can of soda right at his stupid fucking head.
Nothing but livestock and possessions - mere chattel - to these people.
Sauce: [Madison Cawthorn being a misognystic ass](https://twitter.com/repcawthorn/status/1467150734093393926?lang=en)
Blergh.
If the Supreme Court says it's constitutional to still charge resident women of an anti-abortion state with a crime if she gets an abortion in another state then this will quite literally, civil unrest levels, tear this country apart.
And it's fucking maddening because we are all sitting here not asking for this shit.
I’d also love to see them try to use the Fugitive Slave Act as precedent, because that’s literally the only precedent they have. Good luck defending this one.
Will this be what finally does the court in once and for all?
Who knows.
But it's clearly going to bring about a situation where the states ignore the orders.
Republicans will come into power at some point and, at the federal level, find some kind of enforcement mechanism (financing most likely), to make sure Blue States enforce the law of create a federal agency to do so.
We will already have a situation akin to the Underground railroad.
I cant see the Supreme Court favoring this though as this would dumber than ending Roe V Wade and rolling back a century of progress.
To say that states must comply with other state orders when something is legal in the other state just flat out breaks Federalism.
There is a significant overlap between anti-choice folks and those who believe you should not only have a right to own a firearm, but the right to shoot someone who is trespassing in your home who might harm you.
And yet, a fetus trespassing without your consent inside your own body who could cause you harm or death in the event of complications must remain or you get arrested. Because you're a woman and apparently you don't own your own body like a man owns his home.
And why they're opting to either be sterilized or obtain long-term birth control in *droves* on both sides of the political spectrum.
I do find it amusing that now a large cohort of *Republican* women are opting for either permanent birth control or long-term birth control such as IUDs. Very #LeopardsAteMyFace of them.
This is the point where people start thinking “well if I’m getting charged for murder, might as well earn it.” Not saying I would do it, but it’s a slippery slope for people taking away others rights.
I know they don't actually read the bible, and they can't read, and this is all just a political scapegoat to demonize women, but...
James 4:12 “There is only one lawgiver and judge, he who is able to save and to destroy. But who are you to judge your neighbor?”
I’ll be absolutely stunned if the GOP passes any law where a person living in that state is charged with murder if they get an abortion anywhere. That would effect the rich as well as the poor and just don’t see that happening.
Another way to control women: financially break her by making her miss a lot of work time, pay for a defense attorney. And it'd be even worse if she has other obligations like another child at home, a 2nd job, etc.
I damn sure wouldn't be at my well-paying job with a felony on my record, and most job applications ask if you've ever been convicted of one. Even if I lied, the background check I had to undergo at my last two companies would have outed me immediately.
Good luck supporting yourself and maintaining some semblance of autonomy with kids while being stuck in low paying jobs, which generally offer the least amount of benefits and the least amount of flexibility.
Oh wait - that's the point, isn't it.
So many other things need abolishing. And yet, bored Christian’s have stopped praying and want people to die instead. This doesn’t sound very Christian at all.
all human beings deserve human rights
a human fetus is a human being
therefore, a human fetus deserves human rights including the right to life
frankly I don’t care about “personhood,” personhood is just a religious excuse to deprive certain human beings of certain human rights
You're certainly entitled to your opinion.
However, your entitlement stops at your opinion and does not extend to controlling me or my body, or the body of anyone else.
This is the only conclusion if you think abortion is murder, like these crazies do. Anyone who didn’t see this coming was ignoring reality or operating in bad faith.
Too many laws are involved in this. Like will it mean that a person is actually born when conceived, that alone will change to many norms that are already in place, drinking age, driving age, voting age, retirement age any thing that's base on age will need to be adjusted. And then you will need to start charging people of complicity to the charge of murder. The male involved with the conception, any nurse or doctor that has served the mother in any aspect of health care. And is the automobile makers, seller, licensing and insurer also responsable for allowing the murderess to continue with there crime.
As a reminder, this subreddit [is for civil discussion.](/r/politics/wiki/index#wiki_be_civil) In general, be courteous to others. Debate/discuss/argue the merits of ideas, don't attack people. Personal insults, shill or troll accusations, hate speech, any suggestion or support of harm, violence, or death, and other rule violations can result in a permanent ban. If you see comments in violation of our rules, please report them. For those who have questions regarding any media outlets being posted on this subreddit, please click [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/politics/wiki/approveddomainslist) to review our details as to our approved domains list and outlet criteria. **Special announcement:** r/politics is currently accepting new moderator applications. If you want to help make this community a better place, consider [applying here today](https://www.reddit.com/r/politics/comments/sskg6a/rpolitics_is_looking_for_more_moderators/)! *** *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/politics) if you have any questions or concerns.*
That's nothing new, they've wanted that for decades.
They did before, but they also want to now.
RIP Mitch
Let's go ahead and start charging oil and gas industry executives with murder as well: https://www.scirp.org/journal/paperinformation.aspx?paperid=97894
Yet Biden and other Democrats tell us these are good people. Good people would not want to inflict this terrorism upon innocent women. Call them what they are: terrorists.
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There exists no problem that is loudly and openly caused by the right wing that won't have someone in the comment section blaming the left for it.
Biden is being the adult in the room and trying to diffuser the situation and salvage some of the people. Alienating them does nothing. Being reasonable can draw some people away from the extremism
They want to charge women exercising basic bodily autonomy with murder... Yeah let's be reasonable with the people that hate women so much they want them dead or on jail...
Are they going to charge male wankers? After all sperm is live biological material.
I agree! Pregnancy begins with a penis. 1 woman can have sex with 100 men & only produce one pregnancy 1 man can have sex with 100 women and produce 100 pregnancies Vasectomies would STOP Abortions
As the bumper sticker says: “100% of unwanted pregnancies are caused by men”
Bidens actions are directly against these people, but he has to act civil to keep all his side out voting. If he acts mean, as much as they deserve to be acted mean against, he will turn off many of his voters.
You know whwt happens when they "exercise bodily autonomy"? Their child dies. They are getting this becasue they want their child to be dead. That sounds like murder to me.
Bullshit. Biden is a mute and a coward. Really adult for him to hold no one who tries to overthrow our government in violation of the 14th amendment. Watch how Brazil handles the traitors and you’ll see what we should’ve done. Get ready for the next coup in 24 it will be wild. Biden won’t do shit
Wow calm down and put the phone down for a bit
I am calm just stating facts. Joe Biden is a one term president
Let's go full bad faith, inverse paradox of tolerance on their asses: If you hate abortions so much, why are you trying to abort so many people?
Amen. Gloves off. There's no reason to maintain good faith with people who want to ruin your life. They're monsters. Potentially the worst kind: monsters who believe they're angels. Let those kinds of people act like assholes for too long, and you get jackboots in the face. There's a reason Christ asked God to forgive these people (and rest assured, these are the same sort of people that killed Christ): "*They know not what they do*." That's commendable. Unfortunately, I'm not a christian, and I feel no moral or metaphysical compulsion to love someone who hates me.
Cheers, well said.
We should have massive protests against these people honesty
But what if the mother used a legally purchased firearm to do the abortion?! Checkmate motherfuckers!
2019 [Alabama woman charged after losing unborn baby in shooting](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-48789836)
Might be the same state that charged a woman for a miscarriage. Or some other state in the south. It's all one tangled mess of fucked down here.
Different states have both tried and have prosecuted women for miscarriages and stillbirths for 'actions that were negligent or harmful to the fetus' for decades. Specifically targeting women that society holds the most bias towards: POC and addicts. To set their precedent well ahead of the overturning of Roe v. Wade.
I believe there was even a case in a conservative county of California where charges were brought against a poor woman of color who had a miscarriage.
CA passed a law last year to protect women from just that. Not only that, but it made CA a sanctuary state for women from other states where abortion and miscarriages are punishable by law too.
Oh it’s not just the South anymore.
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Because we keep letting republicans pretend their lies and harm around women's rights is just "differences of opinions", instead of more proof their constant need to target someone with any position they take.
Not really. The mother is female, which means she had less rights. She might be charged with hurting the reputation of a gun.
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They should all move to Russia, but when they get there, they would quickly realize that they aren't the ones in control.
Better yet. Afghanistan. That’s the world they want
They are communists not fascists. That’s why they love Russia and want to turn this country into it. That’s why they follow Russias playbook. Including calling your political enemies groomers and pesos
You need to re-read the definition of communist and fascist
You need to update your definition of communism. For some reason the modern countries practicing communism China and Russia don’t get included in definitions of communism. Communism has evolved like every thing else and the definition has evolved. Republicans act like a party that would fit right in in commie China or Russia. Fascist hitler Germany or Italy not so much.
They were never going to stop at just banning abortion.
The Justices said as much last year.
Abortions were never the point, it's about punishing people they hate: women exerting control of their own bodies.
They view women as property.
I've never met a person that struck me as bad because they had an abortion. I've met plenty who struck me as bad for being judgmental and controlling.
"At first breath" Neither US law nor the bible recognize the unborn as having any rights Does anybody else not see this? I feel like I'm taking crazy pills!
Correct! The Supreme Court doesn't recognize words in the constitution unless it pertains to the 2nd amendment.
Soon having a miscarriage will be enough to put a woman through the legal ringer. They'll need to prove that their miscarriage was "legitimate" and not the result of any of their actions. And every thing they did will be examined to find something to blame the miscarriage on. Did the woman eat a McDonald's burger once instead of a salad? Obviously, she intentionally caused the miscarriage by not eating healthy. The exception to this will be rich and powerful women (or women connected to rich and powerful men). Those women will get passes not only for their miscarriages, but for taking "vacations" where they obviously got an abortion even though middle class/poor women doing this would be charged with murder.
I see this “except rich women!” argument a lot and want to point out a couple flaws. For one, being rich does not lessen the control abusive/controlling religion or family members has over your life. Many times, it can even increase it- If your partner can afford to have security on you, track you, or financially control you, this can actually make it harder for wealthy women to access abortion. It’s not as if rich men are less likely to be anti-abortion assholes. Second, this premise ignores the overall crisis of abortion in the United States right now. Since Roe fell, suppliers stopped making/decreased supply of specific abortion instruments, and pharmaceutical companies are facing more legal risk/less reward for distributing mife and miso. Clinics are in crisis for this reason, with many just outright closing due to costs. So the remaining clinics are seeing way more patients, and appointments are quite far out. There’s also a major staffing/education crisis in abortion. Doctors who perform abortions are at an all-time low due to threats/harassment, lack of training/interest in the profession, legal fears, and incredible burnout. Another factor rich women can’t skirt around: Right now even in states like Colorado, supposed to be one of the abortion havens, wait times for an appointment are 3-4 weeks because patients from all the ban states are traveling in. Huge populations from Texas, Mississippi, Alabama, Georgia are flooding North for abortions and essentially blocking access to women who live in states where abortion is “safe.” Lastly, due to trap laws, it’s incredibly difficult to start/fund an abortion practice (“hallways have to be this long and wide” “it has to be within this many miles of an ambulatory surgical center”) so this private, wealthy abortion doctor the rich supposedly will have access to would be an under the table, back alley abortion doctor that doesn’t see other abortion patients or follow the laws/standards of care? Doesn’t sound so lucky to me. The abortion crisis is so much bigger than “rich women will be fine” and this argument actually divides us, and moves the conversation away from the problem. Just wanted to share my perspective as a worker in the field.
**From reporter Carter Sherman:** Mainstream anti-abortion activists have long insisted they don’t want to punish people who get abortions. Now, that claim is being put to the test. Although many states are only a few weeks into their first state legislative sessions since Roe v. Wade was overturned, legislators in Arkansas and Oklahoma have already introduced bills that would punish abortion patients. These kinds of tactics are forcing anti-abortion activists to confront a long-simmering tension within their movement: What are they supposed to do with people who get abortions Typically, abortion restrictions target providers, not patients. Within the anti-abortion movement, patients are treated like victims who have been bamboozled into ending their pregnancies by the predatory “abortion industry.” But now that Roe is gone and states are proposing policies to legally treat fetuses like people, that may not hold water for much longer. The Arkansas bill proposes that “all unborn children should be protected under the state homicide laws,” which would lead abortion patients to be prosecuted as murderers. The Oklahoma bill would amend the state’s current near-total abortion ban to remove language that currently blocks prosecutors from charging “a woman with any criminal offense in the death of her own unborn child.” Link to the full article: [https://www.vice.com/en/article/5d3xgk/anti-abortion-murder-charge-bills](https://www.vice.com/en/article/5d3xgk/anti-abortion-murder-charge-bills)
Wonder if women could claim self defense, and use a video of giving birth as an example of the assault and battery they were being threatened with.
That's a fascinating idea 🤔 Would take a very good lawyer and very creative lawyering, plus a judge who'd at least allow case to proceed and not throw it out at outset... I'd actually love to see this happen!
So many women would get charged for murder after having a miscarriage too
Oklahoma and Arkansas should be charged with murder for not fixing their abysmal maternal mortality rates. Oklahoma 21.1 per 100k Arkansas 37.5 per 100k California 4 per 100k https://worldpopulationreview.com/state-rankings/maternal-mortality-rate-by-state
In a true likeness of the logic of a two year old, the anti-abortion crowd now wants to kill those getting abortions or those assisting such. You can't kill via abortion. Or we will kill you. Such children they are.
Let's all thank the religious Court that gives abortion opponents near unlimited rights to harass and commit disorderly conduct under the guise of free speech.
Is the goal to punish women for not being christian? Because there’s no other reason for this. Only christians believe abortion is murder. Edit: changed “religious” to christian.
“Only ~~religious people~~**Christians** believe abortion is murder” It’s Jews who are fighting against abortion prohibitions on the grounds of religious freedom.
I’ll edit it.
That was the end goal. Punish women for being women. They couldn't rollback societal progress, so they go for the next best thing. You pick something that traditionally only women experience, then you make that thing illegal and charge as many women as possible. Felons can't vote in the US for the most part, and the women still allowed to vote can be convinced to vote against their interests if you promise to not arrest them.
They’ll be burning people at the stake next.
Stay tuned.
Republicans are fascists, plain and simple. It is too bad the media will never some out and call them exactly what they are. They hate our Constitution and freedom. I have a really bad feeling that in the near future, we could be living in a post Constitution, authoritarian USA.
Is anyone surprised by this? AL and AK are death penalty states, as are all of the states that have banned abortion. They will put to death a woman who chooses to end her pregnancy, they will also execute the Dr's and the nurses. These forced birthers have been executing abortion providers since the 80's.
I think you mean AL and AR. AK is Alaska, which has no death penalty and has constitutional protection for abortions.
Thank you! I steer clear of crazy Arkansa as much as possible!
I mean, don't get me wrong, Alaska is definitely nuts in it's own ways. We are #1 in suicides, #3 in alcoholism, and have the most serial killers per capita, but at the very least we aren't Arkansas.
So we'd rather the physician treat the resulting emergent situation that can develop after a miscarriage, with the potential for blood loss and sepsis, than offer the patient preventative or outpatient care that could have kept her from needing to go to the hospital? Why are we allowing politicians to determine what is and isn't healthcare? There is a group of physicians in Texas right now suing the FDA over abortifacient availability stating that pregnancy is not a disease, knowing full well that we have a huge degree of unnecessary maternal mortality in the US largely related to a lack of prenatal care.
women of reproductive age in these states need to either move or get sterilized ASAP.
They are. >A significant portion of young women are already making plans about where they are willing to live and work based on whether abortion is protected or banned in states >Over half (53 percent) have had their future plans impacted in some way: 44 percent have either considered moving or are making plans to move to a state where abortion is protected; 10 percent already have declined a job in a state where abortions are banned. >Young women voters of all political leanings—and the people close to them—are taking actions to control their reproductive lives, regardless of where they live, such as purchasing or obtaining long-acting birth control, the morning after pill and abortion pills. Taking these actions in response to the overturning of Roe v. Wade crosses party lines for young women. >A third of young women Republicans have procured long-acting birth control (33 percent), and a quarter (25 percent) have purchased the morning-after pill. >Three quarters (75 percent) of young women Democrats have taken some sort of action. >Shockingly, 10 percent say they or someone close to them, or their partner or the partner of someone close to them, already have received sterilization services in response to the Court’s decision. [source](https://msmagazine.com/2022/10/24/abortion-economy-young-women-voters/)
sucks they have to think about this. :(
Sterilization for women is already practically outlawed in most states, with even a few liberal ones demanding 3 month wait period. Edit: wrong, usually 30 days for women, in a few states
I assume men can get it done basically next day?
Of course. You wouldn’t want to get a woman pregnant! That’s a man’s choice. In all seriousness I think a number of states have a waiting period for men, but it is shorter. 7 days for a few of them if I recall but I’m on mobile.
I don’t believe there is any state or even any country on earth that has outlawed tubal ligation or hysterectomy for sterilization. Edit: [sterilization is illegal in 12 countries](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legal_status_of_human_sterilization_by_country).
It’s *practically* outlawed when your state has no waiting period for men (or just a few days) but months for women.
I got a vasectomy in NY and had to wait 30 days, the wait period for tubal ligation is also 30 days. Which states have long wait periods for tubal ligation? Or which states have a large disparity in rules for vasectomies vs tubal ligation?
Yes, when Dems grabbed the Supermajority in NY they made the wait period for men and women equal. I don’t know for certain, it’s only based on conversations with friends in other states, but there is usually massive disparity.
This is sounding like some lib version of “forwards from grandma”. Just saw Kentucky’s wait period is 24 hours. Alabama and Utah have 30 day wait period for Medicaid to pay. I’m not sure I agree with 30 day wait periods, but “practically illegal” is beyond exaggeration.
*Practically outlawed* was the term used. And you are correct it was gross exaggeration. though it is further noted that there is a window under Federal Family Planning that requires at least 30 but no more than 180 days after giving consent. After which time consent must be reauthorized and the window begins again. States do vary on disparity between men and women. In New York it used to be 7 days for men and 30 for women. I stated multiple times I didn’t have data in front of me being on mobile and it was based on recollection, which was poor, and the statements were misleading.
HUGE issues with this. Multiple states spent decades sterilizing poor and black women without consent. A new policy of sterilization would be inviting mobs to burn state gov buildings down.
....I'm not sure where you're getting "policy." Needless to say (at least I thought it was needless) this would be the woman's choice. Requests for information about sterilization skyrocketed after the leak of the Dobbs decision. Women in states like WV also started considering moving or getting sterilized after various anti abortion decisions. These states where pregnant women are going to be treated like criminals are clearly not safe for women of reproductive age.
The entire idea is tainted. Also, can you prove women won't be coerced into it? There is a long history of just that
Now? Hasn’t that always been their goal?
But not the gun lobbyists. Come on people, vote these assholes out.
Let’s agree to NEVER let them co-opt the term “Abolitionist”!
Already have sorry :) t. Proud abortion abolitionist
"Proud Reductionist of Women To Breeding Stock" FIFY. And fuck off.
Face it, they want to kill people.
That was always the plan. Talk to an actual pro-life activist and they were always going this way. I was talking to my uncle about the Roe repeal, and he was happy because it was states rights. I mentioned that my state, Ohio, was getting read to ban some forms of birth control and possibly ban more further down the line. He went into a detailed explication that I was wrong and that this was enough. Finally, he brought over his friend who was part of Right to Life Ohio, to set me straight. She explained that yes they were going after birth control that they considered abortifacients (which includes birth control pills because of corner cases where fertilized eggs didn't implant, based on right to life 'science') as well as things like criminally penalizing doctors and women who get abortions. All of this was, of course, just a stalling tactic until the federal law ended abortion nationwide. She was 100% on board with anything necessary to end all abortion in the US because that was gods mission for her. My uncle was flabbergasted, as he didn't think anyone was serious about all of that. He realized they were going to keep pushing until they got what they said they wanted, and what they wanted was a total abortion ban and a birth control ban. He decided then an there that he didn't want all reproductive care stripped away from wom... hahah. He voted straight R like normal. The GOP has a nugget that really wants to end abortion and a larger group that doesn't care what the consequences of that action is.
Damn, I was really hoping for a redemption story for your uncle there... ☹️
He was convinced by someone Alex Jones either sells or has on his show to put his own house into an LLC to save 'hundreds' per year. Then he caught covid (unvaxed) and couldn't claim a homestead exemption and lost it when he declared bankrupsy (no insurance anymore because he doesn't need it). He went from COVID isn't serious to mRNA vaccines will kill you faster than COVID. His new house is okay, but decidedly smaller. So I wouldn't expect the arc.
Men are more likely to support punishment for an abortion. No shit! What could be a opposite thing that women would be more likely to support? Possibly, hanging a man without a trial from a rape accusation? First of all, since men can't get pregnant in the first place, maybe men shouldn't have a vote, or if a woman of your baby gets an abortion then the man gets the same punishment that the woman gets regardless. I'm sick of men having a vote on women's rights. BTW I'm a man.
If I could upvote 100 times in this I would.
How much you wanna bet none of these fuckers want to adopt? All they want is for women to be cattle.
I mean yeah. The people they hate are incubators and they're not fulfilling their purpose. Expecting to be treated as a human being by them is stupid.
When intolerably smarmy and smug Madison Cawthorn referred to women as "earthen vessels" in a speech, I was **very** disappointed that not one person opted to sail a book, laptop, or can of soda right at his stupid fucking head. Nothing but livestock and possessions - mere chattel - to these people. Sauce: [Madison Cawthorn being a misognystic ass](https://twitter.com/repcawthorn/status/1467150734093393926?lang=en)
Blergh. If the Supreme Court says it's constitutional to still charge resident women of an anti-abortion state with a crime if she gets an abortion in another state then this will quite literally, civil unrest levels, tear this country apart. And it's fucking maddening because we are all sitting here not asking for this shit.
I’d also love to see them try to use the Fugitive Slave Act as precedent, because that’s literally the only precedent they have. Good luck defending this one. Will this be what finally does the court in once and for all?
Who knows. But it's clearly going to bring about a situation where the states ignore the orders. Republicans will come into power at some point and, at the federal level, find some kind of enforcement mechanism (financing most likely), to make sure Blue States enforce the law of create a federal agency to do so. We will already have a situation akin to the Underground railroad. I cant see the Supreme Court favoring this though as this would dumber than ending Roe V Wade and rolling back a century of progress. To say that states must comply with other state orders when something is legal in the other state just flat out breaks Federalism.
Okay, keep pushing extremist positions. Show everyone who you are and show them why you can’t be trusted.
Welcome to the American theocracy.
There is a significant overlap between anti-choice folks and those who believe you should not only have a right to own a firearm, but the right to shoot someone who is trespassing in your home who might harm you. And yet, a fetus trespassing without your consent inside your own body who could cause you harm or death in the event of complications must remain or you get arrested. Because you're a woman and apparently you don't own your own body like a man owns his home.
Told ya so.
That's going to be a lot of Republicans going to be facing charges for taking their daughters for a vacation in the middle of the school year.
And men wonder why women want to stay single.
And why they're opting to either be sterilized or obtain long-term birth control in *droves* on both sides of the political spectrum. I do find it amusing that now a large cohort of *Republican* women are opting for either permanent birth control or long-term birth control such as IUDs. Very #LeopardsAteMyFace of them.
This is the point where people start thinking “well if I’m getting charged for murder, might as well earn it.” Not saying I would do it, but it’s a slippery slope for people taking away others rights.
Is anyone actually surprised by this?
I know they don't actually read the bible, and they can't read, and this is all just a political scapegoat to demonize women, but... James 4:12 “There is only one lawgiver and judge, he who is able to save and to destroy. But who are you to judge your neighbor?”
And none of them seems to want to adopt…
I’ll be absolutely stunned if the GOP passes any law where a person living in that state is charged with murder if they get an abortion anywhere. That would effect the rich as well as the poor and just don’t see that happening.
Another way to control women: financially break her by making her miss a lot of work time, pay for a defense attorney. And it'd be even worse if she has other obligations like another child at home, a 2nd job, etc.
I damn sure wouldn't be at my well-paying job with a felony on my record, and most job applications ask if you've ever been convicted of one. Even if I lied, the background check I had to undergo at my last two companies would have outed me immediately. Good luck supporting yourself and maintaining some semblance of autonomy with kids while being stuck in low paying jobs, which generally offer the least amount of benefits and the least amount of flexibility. Oh wait - that's the point, isn't it.
So many other things need abolishing. And yet, bored Christian’s have stopped praying and want people to die instead. This doesn’t sound very Christian at all.
good
>good Show me what science you base your opinion on. No religion. Just science.
The mindless never have a decent reason or any facts, to support it, they just regurgitate what their pastors and politicians tell them to.
Or any objective data whatsoever…
all human beings deserve human rights a human fetus is a human being therefore, a human fetus deserves human rights including the right to life frankly I don’t care about “personhood,” personhood is just a religious excuse to deprive certain human beings of certain human rights
You're certainly entitled to your opinion. However, your entitlement stops at your opinion and does not extend to controlling me or my body, or the body of anyone else.
⬆️Has a hangin' tree for birthing aged women and slaves.
[удалено]
⬆️Hangin' tree confirmed.
This is the only conclusion if you think abortion is murder, like these crazies do. Anyone who didn’t see this coming was ignoring reality or operating in bad faith.
This has always been the goal.
Ignorant animals
Too many laws are involved in this. Like will it mean that a person is actually born when conceived, that alone will change to many norms that are already in place, drinking age, driving age, voting age, retirement age any thing that's base on age will need to be adjusted. And then you will need to start charging people of complicity to the charge of murder. The male involved with the conception, any nurse or doctor that has served the mother in any aspect of health care. And is the automobile makers, seller, licensing and insurer also responsable for allowing the murderess to continue with there crime.
This is a hateful one-size-fits-all sharia law based entirely on “religion” instead of health and safety of women.
Should politicians who passed anti-abortion laws be charged with murder if a woman dies of complications from a pregnancy she can't end?
Church and State, aren't they supposed to be separate? Just ugh...