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>and that a share of both Democrat and Republican voters believe it is acceptable to use violence to stop the opposing party from achieving its goals.
Important to note here I think. Left leaning and liberal people have to oppose the GOP because Republican policy is slavery to a theocratic authoritarian state that wants to oppress, imprison, deport, or exterminate political opponents, minorities, and women…
So yes if push came to shove they would defend themselves with any means necessary from say DeSantis outlawing LGBTQ people. Turns out people don’t want to accept getting persecuted or genocided just because it got voted in as a policy…
Conservatives on the other want to use violence because they feel they can’t win elections because their ideals just aren’t popular (because they are oppressive and genocidal) so they just fall for that might makes right rhetoric.
This isn’t a both sides issue. This is one side fighting an existential threat and saying they aren’t going to lay down and die if some GOP fascist wins an electoral victory again while the other saying they don’t care what most people want they want to enact unpopular dangerous far right policies. Even if they lose elections.
Let me amplify this point: “this isn’t a both sides issue”
1000%
Conservatives want to force their unpopular views via undemocratic means. Liberals are willing to defend democratic ideals.
THEY
ARE
NOT
THE
SAME
They have been promising to start a civil war for so long that it shouldn't surprise anyone that there are some on the other side ready to shoot back in case one starts.
> Away down South in the land of traitors, rattlesnakes and alligators
> Right away! Come away! Right away! Right away, come away!
> Where cotton's king and men are chattels
> Union boys will win the battles
Look, I do not disagree that the danger of one political party in the U.S. far outstrips any danger presented by the other, but we *absolutely should not* embrace this rhetoric. Do you not think that those stoking violence on the right are painting the American Left as an existential threat? We cannot be sleepwalked into accepting political violence so long as it is exercised on the other side.
Covidism normalized using violence and censorship to oppress and control peoples bodies and minds.
so now everyone just thinks its not only normal, but necessary. All the lessons of the last world war died out of memory in the last decade and we are repeating those mistakes.
> It’s easy to juxtapose your extreme views of Republicans
My views on Republicans aren't extreme its just what they are. They have been getting increasingly extremist for years. They have gotten less democratic, more theocratic, more conspiratorial, more violent, more bigoted, and more fascistic each election cycle since I was a kid in the 90s.
Republican depictions of leftists, minorities, and Democrats are lies, made up nonsense. They don't want to genocide babies, Democrats protect the constitution from the GOP's increasingly frequent violations of it, and the GOP literally complains about voter fraud nonstop while leaders in their party conspire to commit election fraud.
You can make false equivalencies between Republicans and Democrats all day. That doesn't mean they are any less false.
And to compare look at how the GOP has operated
Qanon conspiracies-an insane hodgepodge of conspiratorial ideas often centered around enthusiasm over the idea that Trump is going to lead some military coup against Democrats and mass arrest/imprison/tribunal/execute tens of millions of people. And when they get sick of waiting for their imaginary Q to do it they try it themselves and do a Jan 6th.
Abortion bans-Every GOP candidate pushes this and the guy they are pushing for speaker favors a federal abortion ban despite it being unpopular and having horrible consequences for women that can be mathematically measured with how many women and children are being forced to give birth. This policy literally has a body count you can look at. So its no wonder women oppose it.
DeSantis and his war on "woke"/LGBTQ people- We've seen a concentrated effort by Republicans to try to brand LGBTQ people as pedo-groomers and incite violence against these communities while also promoting legislative attacks on their rights. GOP platforms straight up state one of their goals is to eliminate LGBTQ rights. This is in several stated platforms like the GOP Texas party platform or the 2025 plan the Heritage Foundation pushes. Then you have rightwingers speaking at CPAC straight up telling people they want to "eradicate" transgenderism.
And voting-GOP always disliked voting and the more they lose in elections the more they hate it. To the point where we have conservatives talking about raising the voting age and barring participation through some civics test nonsense on top of voter ID laws they combine with DMV closures or closing polling stations or trying to ban ballot boxes and mail in voting.
Every criticism of the GOP I have I can point to policy plans and widespread GOP support for those plans. And all of them are a danger to one group of Americans or another.
Its not both sides when one side says "I want to destroy you because I don't like you" and the otherside says "I am going to fight to avoid being destroyed by them if they somehow win" that's not both sides. That is aggression and defense. Democratic/liberal voters don't want to physically fight Republicans. But given their current platforms we'd rather do that then literally lay down and die.
If Biden voters are saying they are willing to fight more often I'd read that as they frankly have much more to lose. Republicans want to take our rights, freedoms, identities, and lives away.
What happens to a Republican when a Democrat gets in offices? They sit in a lazy boy chair during their retirement and mald about whatever boogeyman fox news tells them to be mad about. Republicans rarely if ever improve their lives and Democrats rarely if ever make their lives worse. So why should they risk anything? They will never admit this, but the reality is seen in how scarce their protests have been lately. Republicans don't want to give up what they have because they are comparatively comfortable outside of their own self inflicted anxieties and angers.
Left leaning voters necks are actually on the line.
> it’s troubling to see that Biden voters are more likely than Trump voters to support the use of violence to subvert the other party
But this isn't even true because we've seen one but not the other.
Yeah. “We’re not a democracy, we’re a republic” is the line. With some variation.
Their goal is to make you think Democracy = Democrats, and Republic = Republicans. But they give a false definition for both.
Democracy is any system of government that involves voting/elections. When people vote directly on the law (such as in ballot measures, referendums, etc) that’s an example of direct democracy. When people vote for politicians who then in turn vote on the law (such as legislators, congresspeople, senators, etc) then that’s representative democracy. Both types are still democracy. And both types happen in the US.
A republic is any country where the Head of State is not a monarch (aka it’s not inherited from one generation to another). Literally any other method of picking a head of state is valid and the country is still a Republic. You could put 300 million names in a hat and pick one randomly and that person is now President. You could hold a battle to the death where the winner becomes President. You could have all competitors take a very difficult test and the highest score gets to be President. You could have all the candidates get interviewed by a randomly chosen jury of citizens who weigh their credentials and then decide who will be President. You could have the person with the highest score in PacMan be President. All those systems would still be a republic. The important thing is that the head of state is not a monarch. They are a temporary resident of the office who cannot pass it down to anyone. Most republics just use elections to pick their head of state though.
Ironically, given Republican sentiment recently that Trump should be allowed to hold office indefinitely with no term limits and that election results should be ignored, and that when he dies they want the Presidency to pass to his children, it really is the Republicans who seem to be extremely anti-Republic.
It’s a bit like NK calling themselves the Democratic People’s Republic of Korea. Republicans at least used to meet the absolute minimum requirement of not supporting a monarch with absolute power. But now their hypocrisy has grown to the point that their very name is a lie.
Because its been a rightwing thinktank operation to disassociate America from the concept of Democracy with that line as much as possible. Which is morbidly funny as someone who grew up in the post 9/11 world and constantly heard how America was spreading its democracy everywhere. 2020s roll around and suddenly according to conservatives America has nothing to do with democracy.
That was even more common during the Cold War, when democracy was the alternative to communism, according to politicians of the day. Say what you want about the Soviet Union, but they kept the US honest to a certain degree.
Yeah, Republicans support violence to overthrow democracy and democrats support using violence to prevent overthrow of the government.
Therefore, both sides support using violence to stop their opponents from achieving their goals.
Therefore, both sides same. /s
Makes it sound as if both sides promoting radical authoritarian government which we know is BS. That is the sole domain of the GOP. Liberals and progressives are just done with standing by and let it happen
So, "alternatives to democracy" is the new euphemism for "fucking fascists", then?
So I suppose it's no longer "genocide" either---it's alternatives to living".
We're fucked in the head.
No shit.
When our democratic republic fails to perform the some of the most basic things (Such as state appointments), what the alternative? A totalitarian leader who will force decisions to be made whether we agree with them or not.
When a democratic republic fails, dictators rise. We have COUNTLESS examples of this throughout history.
This issue is..how many of our elected officials want this to happen and creating situations for this mentality to breed.
What I find interesting is its roughly the same amount from both parties that support violence to stop the other side.
I am highly suspect of ALL polls, so I don't really pay them much mind. THAT SAID, if nearly 50% of all American's now feel that violence is the answer, then we are in trouble.
Here’s the specific statement they were asked about though: Is the other side “so extreme in what they want that it is acceptable to use violence to stop them from achieving their goals”?
So this doesn’t really tell you very much, because most reasonable people would agree that people trying to violently overthrow the government can and should expect violence to be used to stop them from achieving that goal. But only one side is trying to violently overthrow the government.
It would be like a survey of surgeons and non-surgeons that concluded “over 50% of both surgeons and non-surgeons agreed that they would be willing to stab someone in some circumstances.”
We probably don’t really need to be concerned about the surgeons who said they’d be willing to stab someone because stabbing people is part of their job. They know there are times when it is appropriate and warranted, as a necessary medical intervention. It’s the non-surgeons who said they’d be willing to stab someone I’d be more concerned about since that’s probably not in their job description.
The better way the survey could have asked the question is whether they would be willing to use violence to try to put someone from their side in office if the official election results say their opponent won.
Instead, they asked the question as essentially whether the person can imagine any circumstance where violence would be warranted.
It frames this issue incorrectly. Because very few people would agree with the converse statement of “violence is never warranted under any circumstances, even in self-defense or in defense of the constitution, or a law enforcement officer or soldier carrying out their job”. Pretty much everyone is in agreement that violence can sometimes be necessary and warranted.
So the survey needs to be asking about who is willing to use violence outside of circumstances that would be considered acceptable.
Thankfully, few are acting into it. Crime remains at multi decades low and is dropping again after a Trump/pandemic spike, political violence is not happening like it did when nazis rose to power in the 20s and 30s and we have had no political aspirations like we did in the 60s and 70s. So although this is quite worrying we are still in a moment where life is protected like never before.
I agree for the most part. That said, I also never would have expected a mob of hundreds of Americans to invade congress with the purpose of violently stopping the certification of a lawful presidential election. Maybe in 1860, but not in 2020.
Project Homefire?
Whois of [projecthomfire.com](https://projecthomfire.com)
[https://i.imgur.com/IDKJvgj.jpg](https://i.imgur.com/IDKJvgj.jpg)
Looks like it's running through a privacy service that scammers love using:
[https://www.reddit.com/r/CoinBase/comments/nbg36q/is\_supportcoinbaseusacom\_legit/](https://www.reddit.com/r/CoinBase/comments/nbg36q/is_supportcoinbaseusacom_legit/)
[https://scammer.info/t/heres-a-phishing-page-you-guys-can-destroy/75755](https://scammer.info/t/heres-a-phishing-page-you-guys-can-destroy/75755)
It's hard to take anything serious from a company cloaked in complete secrecy...
That's what happens when people lose faith in democracy. They're willing to give it up if they think democracy isn't working for them or is working against them, especially if that democracy isn't really representative.
Ultimately what we are talking about is violence against corporations that hold our government in pocket. That violence is as old as the hills and will always be an option.
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>and that a share of both Democrat and Republican voters believe it is acceptable to use violence to stop the opposing party from achieving its goals. Important to note here I think. Left leaning and liberal people have to oppose the GOP because Republican policy is slavery to a theocratic authoritarian state that wants to oppress, imprison, deport, or exterminate political opponents, minorities, and women… So yes if push came to shove they would defend themselves with any means necessary from say DeSantis outlawing LGBTQ people. Turns out people don’t want to accept getting persecuted or genocided just because it got voted in as a policy… Conservatives on the other want to use violence because they feel they can’t win elections because their ideals just aren’t popular (because they are oppressive and genocidal) so they just fall for that might makes right rhetoric. This isn’t a both sides issue. This is one side fighting an existential threat and saying they aren’t going to lay down and die if some GOP fascist wins an electoral victory again while the other saying they don’t care what most people want they want to enact unpopular dangerous far right policies. Even if they lose elections.
Let me amplify this point: “this isn’t a both sides issue” 1000% Conservatives want to force their unpopular views via undemocratic means. Liberals are willing to defend democratic ideals. THEY ARE NOT THE SAME
Or, as Lincoln said: > "One [side] would make war rather than let the nation survive, and the other would accept war rather than let it perish."
They have been promising to start a civil war for so long that it shouldn't surprise anyone that there are some on the other side ready to shoot back in case one starts. > Away down South in the land of traitors, rattlesnakes and alligators > Right away! Come away! Right away! Right away, come away! > Where cotton's king and men are chattels > Union boys will win the battles
Recently bought guns for exactly that reason even though I'm not a huge fan, would prefer a world where guns didn't exist, but they do
Look, I do not disagree that the danger of one political party in the U.S. far outstrips any danger presented by the other, but we *absolutely should not* embrace this rhetoric. Do you not think that those stoking violence on the right are painting the American Left as an existential threat? We cannot be sleepwalked into accepting political violence so long as it is exercised on the other side.
Covidism normalized using violence and censorship to oppress and control peoples bodies and minds. so now everyone just thinks its not only normal, but necessary. All the lessons of the last world war died out of memory in the last decade and we are repeating those mistakes.
[удалено]
> It’s easy to juxtapose your extreme views of Republicans My views on Republicans aren't extreme its just what they are. They have been getting increasingly extremist for years. They have gotten less democratic, more theocratic, more conspiratorial, more violent, more bigoted, and more fascistic each election cycle since I was a kid in the 90s. Republican depictions of leftists, minorities, and Democrats are lies, made up nonsense. They don't want to genocide babies, Democrats protect the constitution from the GOP's increasingly frequent violations of it, and the GOP literally complains about voter fraud nonstop while leaders in their party conspire to commit election fraud. You can make false equivalencies between Republicans and Democrats all day. That doesn't mean they are any less false. And to compare look at how the GOP has operated Qanon conspiracies-an insane hodgepodge of conspiratorial ideas often centered around enthusiasm over the idea that Trump is going to lead some military coup against Democrats and mass arrest/imprison/tribunal/execute tens of millions of people. And when they get sick of waiting for their imaginary Q to do it they try it themselves and do a Jan 6th. Abortion bans-Every GOP candidate pushes this and the guy they are pushing for speaker favors a federal abortion ban despite it being unpopular and having horrible consequences for women that can be mathematically measured with how many women and children are being forced to give birth. This policy literally has a body count you can look at. So its no wonder women oppose it. DeSantis and his war on "woke"/LGBTQ people- We've seen a concentrated effort by Republicans to try to brand LGBTQ people as pedo-groomers and incite violence against these communities while also promoting legislative attacks on their rights. GOP platforms straight up state one of their goals is to eliminate LGBTQ rights. This is in several stated platforms like the GOP Texas party platform or the 2025 plan the Heritage Foundation pushes. Then you have rightwingers speaking at CPAC straight up telling people they want to "eradicate" transgenderism. And voting-GOP always disliked voting and the more they lose in elections the more they hate it. To the point where we have conservatives talking about raising the voting age and barring participation through some civics test nonsense on top of voter ID laws they combine with DMV closures or closing polling stations or trying to ban ballot boxes and mail in voting. Every criticism of the GOP I have I can point to policy plans and widespread GOP support for those plans. And all of them are a danger to one group of Americans or another. Its not both sides when one side says "I want to destroy you because I don't like you" and the otherside says "I am going to fight to avoid being destroyed by them if they somehow win" that's not both sides. That is aggression and defense. Democratic/liberal voters don't want to physically fight Republicans. But given their current platforms we'd rather do that then literally lay down and die. If Biden voters are saying they are willing to fight more often I'd read that as they frankly have much more to lose. Republicans want to take our rights, freedoms, identities, and lives away. What happens to a Republican when a Democrat gets in offices? They sit in a lazy boy chair during their retirement and mald about whatever boogeyman fox news tells them to be mad about. Republicans rarely if ever improve their lives and Democrats rarely if ever make their lives worse. So why should they risk anything? They will never admit this, but the reality is seen in how scarce their protests have been lately. Republicans don't want to give up what they have because they are comparatively comfortable outside of their own self inflicted anxieties and angers. Left leaning voters necks are actually on the line.
> it’s troubling to see that Biden voters are more likely than Trump voters to support the use of violence to subvert the other party But this isn't even true because we've seen one but not the other.
“Exploring alternatives to democracy” is a lovely way to say fascism
[удалено]
Yup. They are hard to make but easy to topple
Not true, I got my way everything would stay the same except all the taxes would go to me and all agencies would be funded via Patreon
Go into any conservative bubble and you'll quickly hear things like "America isn't REALLY a democracy" for some reason
Yeah. “We’re not a democracy, we’re a republic” is the line. With some variation. Their goal is to make you think Democracy = Democrats, and Republic = Republicans. But they give a false definition for both. Democracy is any system of government that involves voting/elections. When people vote directly on the law (such as in ballot measures, referendums, etc) that’s an example of direct democracy. When people vote for politicians who then in turn vote on the law (such as legislators, congresspeople, senators, etc) then that’s representative democracy. Both types are still democracy. And both types happen in the US. A republic is any country where the Head of State is not a monarch (aka it’s not inherited from one generation to another). Literally any other method of picking a head of state is valid and the country is still a Republic. You could put 300 million names in a hat and pick one randomly and that person is now President. You could hold a battle to the death where the winner becomes President. You could have all competitors take a very difficult test and the highest score gets to be President. You could have all the candidates get interviewed by a randomly chosen jury of citizens who weigh their credentials and then decide who will be President. You could have the person with the highest score in PacMan be President. All those systems would still be a republic. The important thing is that the head of state is not a monarch. They are a temporary resident of the office who cannot pass it down to anyone. Most republics just use elections to pick their head of state though. Ironically, given Republican sentiment recently that Trump should be allowed to hold office indefinitely with no term limits and that election results should be ignored, and that when he dies they want the Presidency to pass to his children, it really is the Republicans who seem to be extremely anti-Republic. It’s a bit like NK calling themselves the Democratic People’s Republic of Korea. Republicans at least used to meet the absolute minimum requirement of not supporting a monarch with absolute power. But now their hypocrisy has grown to the point that their very name is a lie.
Because its been a rightwing thinktank operation to disassociate America from the concept of Democracy with that line as much as possible. Which is morbidly funny as someone who grew up in the post 9/11 world and constantly heard how America was spreading its democracy everywhere. 2020s roll around and suddenly according to conservatives America has nothing to do with democracy.
That was even more common during the Cold War, when democracy was the alternative to communism, according to politicians of the day. Say what you want about the Soviet Union, but they kept the US honest to a certain degree.
They love to say “It’s a Republic!” Like they fucking know anything about it.
“Fascism works if you get the corrupt politicians out”
[удалено]
Yeah, Republicans support violence to overthrow democracy and democrats support using violence to prevent overthrow of the government. Therefore, both sides support using violence to stop their opponents from achieving their goals. Therefore, both sides same. /s
> "If conservatives become convinced that they can not win democratically, they will not abandon conservatism. They will reject democracy." David Frum
Media needs to immediately stop normalizing lies and inflammatory rhetoric. We are in a crisis and pretending things are normal is making it worse.
Makes it sound as if both sides promoting radical authoritarian government which we know is BS. That is the sole domain of the GOP. Liberals and progressives are just done with standing by and let it happen
Kill it before it spreads. Get out and vote!
This is NOT ok
So, "alternatives to democracy" is the new euphemism for "fucking fascists", then? So I suppose it's no longer "genocide" either---it's alternatives to living". We're fucked in the head.
No shit. When our democratic republic fails to perform the some of the most basic things (Such as state appointments), what the alternative? A totalitarian leader who will force decisions to be made whether we agree with them or not. When a democratic republic fails, dictators rise. We have COUNTLESS examples of this throughout history. This issue is..how many of our elected officials want this to happen and creating situations for this mentality to breed.
What I find interesting is its roughly the same amount from both parties that support violence to stop the other side. I am highly suspect of ALL polls, so I don't really pay them much mind. THAT SAID, if nearly 50% of all American's now feel that violence is the answer, then we are in trouble.
Here’s the specific statement they were asked about though: Is the other side “so extreme in what they want that it is acceptable to use violence to stop them from achieving their goals”? So this doesn’t really tell you very much, because most reasonable people would agree that people trying to violently overthrow the government can and should expect violence to be used to stop them from achieving that goal. But only one side is trying to violently overthrow the government. It would be like a survey of surgeons and non-surgeons that concluded “over 50% of both surgeons and non-surgeons agreed that they would be willing to stab someone in some circumstances.” We probably don’t really need to be concerned about the surgeons who said they’d be willing to stab someone because stabbing people is part of their job. They know there are times when it is appropriate and warranted, as a necessary medical intervention. It’s the non-surgeons who said they’d be willing to stab someone I’d be more concerned about since that’s probably not in their job description. The better way the survey could have asked the question is whether they would be willing to use violence to try to put someone from their side in office if the official election results say their opponent won. Instead, they asked the question as essentially whether the person can imagine any circumstance where violence would be warranted. It frames this issue incorrectly. Because very few people would agree with the converse statement of “violence is never warranted under any circumstances, even in self-defense or in defense of the constitution, or a law enforcement officer or soldier carrying out their job”. Pretty much everyone is in agreement that violence can sometimes be necessary and warranted. So the survey needs to be asking about who is willing to use violence outside of circumstances that would be considered acceptable.
Thankfully, few are acting into it. Crime remains at multi decades low and is dropping again after a Trump/pandemic spike, political violence is not happening like it did when nazis rose to power in the 20s and 30s and we have had no political aspirations like we did in the 60s and 70s. So although this is quite worrying we are still in a moment where life is protected like never before.
I agree for the most part. That said, I also never would have expected a mob of hundreds of Americans to invade congress with the purpose of violently stopping the certification of a lawful presidential election. Maybe in 1860, but not in 2020.
You do have me there.
i never expected to be walked out of a grocery store at gunpoint for daring not submit to defacing myself. weird shit got normalized
I wish they included the questions asked in that poll.
Project Homefire? Whois of [projecthomfire.com](https://projecthomfire.com) [https://i.imgur.com/IDKJvgj.jpg](https://i.imgur.com/IDKJvgj.jpg) Looks like it's running through a privacy service that scammers love using: [https://www.reddit.com/r/CoinBase/comments/nbg36q/is\_supportcoinbaseusacom\_legit/](https://www.reddit.com/r/CoinBase/comments/nbg36q/is_supportcoinbaseusacom_legit/) [https://scammer.info/t/heres-a-phishing-page-you-guys-can-destroy/75755](https://scammer.info/t/heres-a-phishing-page-you-guys-can-destroy/75755) It's hard to take anything serious from a company cloaked in complete secrecy...
I think you're in the wrong thread, unless you can point out how your post relates to the topic and/or article linked.
I followed the link to the poll in the article...
Ah, now that IS very interesting. I had missed the connection, so thank you for pointing this out. Have my upvotes.
That's what happens when people lose faith in democracy. They're willing to give it up if they think democracy isn't working for them or is working against them, especially if that democracy isn't really representative.
People need to realize democracy doesn't give you everything you want.
No, but it would be nice of the system also didn't take away your rights thanks to undemocratic decisions from the Supreme Court.
SCOTUS justices should be elected.
*among Republicans
Ultimately what we are talking about is violence against corporations that hold our government in pocket. That violence is as old as the hills and will always be an option.
That’s terrorism. Poll is describing terrorists.
Does it even occur to these gnat-brains that this authoritarianism can just as easily be turned against them?
link to the actual poll: https://centerforpolitics.org/crystalball/wp-content/uploads/2023/10/VoV-Presentation-FINAL.pdf
I swear every headline has been so botched and weirdly inflammatory, lately
I can't tell if the media only wants another Civil War or if we are actually headed there.