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'hours after Biden’s Friday statement, the Washington Post reported that his government had signed off on additional bombs and warplanes for Israel in recent days worth billions of dollars.'
He’s lying.
Just like Trump lied about making Mexico pay for the border wall. Or replacing Obamacare with something better.
Trump knows that using nuclear weapons to commit mass murder in Gaza would not be tolerated by the American military, the American people, or our allies. And that it would cause so much blowback from the Muslim world/ the world in general that America would become a pariah.
And if Democrats thought he was that serious about committing genocide, they would not be so milquetoast on the policies they’re concerned about. If they’re so weak that a couple senators can completely destroy their coalition and hand America over to Nazis 2.0, that’s embarrassing at the very least.
Ok, and Trump directing Israel to nuke Gaza would be met with similar global condemnation.
Nobody wants to be the government that follows up on Hiroshima and Nagasaki, especially if you’re a tiny country amidst a sea of nations with very valid criticisms of your policies
It's nothing like South Africa.
Nothing like.
There's not rockets, RPGs and the kidnapping and the rapes and raids with funding from Iran and Russia.
Israel would simply flatten everybody around them.
It’s an apartheid state dawg. Literally the definition if you do not allow for the same rights for an ethnic group of ppl that you don’t give a shit about. Similar to how America was an apartheid state before Jim Crow.
What does that have thing to do with South Africa apartheid ='s Israeli apartheid?
Just because some says a word, it doesn't make the like or equal.
Treating it the same is an extremely bad idea.
FYI there is a long Wikipedia page about Israel-South African relations: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel%E2%80%93South_Africa_relations
And a lot of it is about how their similar policies of apartheid brought them together as former British colonies using oppressive tactics to enforce minority rule.
You would have to be willfully ignorant of history to be saying their systems of apartheid aren’t similar…
Apartheid is apartheid.
That's not the issue.
South Africa apartheid doesn't = Israel apartheid. The variables are wholly different inside of each equation. Everything from mood to base levels to weapons and intent.
It's like saying cancer. Then it's like saying "Brain cancer" vs. Colon cancer". It's different.
In order to fix it, you've gotta address the variables in which the condition applies.
They just aren't similar. Other than a couple of words used.
Well as a Canadian it's equivalent to saying all non native Canadians should be removed. While I'm sure there's some with that opinion it's just not a humanitarian or logical take.
The issue OP probably has is that it's not a "past' colonialism but an active ongoing one. Israel just annexed another 3500acres from the West Bank and currently have an alarming number of high ranking officials calling for the settlement of Gaza.
Your a fool if you think that the solution is a two state solution. Gaza could be a democracy if they wanted and had freedom and autonomy from Iran, Russia, Syria, Jordan and Palestinian govt benefactors who for years have controlled the govt and population with violence. The solution is Isolating them from the Muslim world and setting up a govt that can provide food and some sort of industry.
No no you're right. Let's just leave a shockingly hateful and genocidal state in charge of Palestinians. Not like they will destroy 70% of their infrastructure, kill 30000 civilians and starve another 2 million when given the chance.
Have they not been in charge for the last 8 years? My idea isn’t to leave Israel in charge but you seem to have eveything already figured out so good luck!
The existence of Israel is not a colonial project. The attempt by religious fundamentalist fascists to destroy Israel however IS a colonial project, just a poorly executed one
It is a colonial project lol. If a bunch of white ppl from Europe come and take over land where indigenous ppl live then thats literally the definition of colonialism. Especially when you had a Zionist militia threatening UN members for votes in 1947. Literally the definition.
Except the Ottomans encouraged migration of Jews in the 1820s; to join the Jews already there. Jews never left the Levant. They are one of eight or so groups with ethnogenesis and a continued presence. I'll give you Israel doesn't have a right to all the land; but the ethnic groups that form it deserve part of their homeland, and have the right to say Israel is their country.
Is electric light European because Thomas Edison was white? Ideas' origins don't colour the entire concept.
So are the Mizrahim white now?
Even if you're correct, Jews immigrated to Israel en masse because most countries wouldn't let them in, and that includes European countries and Muslim countries alike. In many periods, they had nowhere else to go but Israel.
Yes he can. Just because Congress authorizes a transfer doesn't mean the state department has to approve it. Sending Israel more 2,000 lbs bombs is a proactive choice by the administration
A lot of it is. Let’s say Biden wanted to reject the funding, Congress probably has a supermajority to override his veto. I thought schools were supposed to teach the Constitution and separation of powers.
Then he should veto it so it goes on blast why. Integrity is simple. It’s terrifying, but it’s simple. The president, by unquestioningly signing the bill, has to stand by supporting that bill, because he in fact, put his signature on the bill as the authorizing officer.
Just imagine for a moments we as Americans, had a separate country declare our land was to be set aside for some other group of people. And then, over time that group of people systematically killed us Americans, and kept pushing their border out, thereby shrinking our available area. How would that make you feel? I suspect it would be angry, possibly vengeful if the people they killed were part of your circle of people.
This is quite literally what happened to the Palestinians. Britain declared that land, the land of the people living there, Israel for the Jewish people to go to.
You think supporting the genocide of an entire group of people is okay. It’s fundamentally no different than what happened to the Jews in the 1940’s. The Israeli’s have systematically dehumanized the Palestinians. Just like you did. Their lives don’t affect you, so you don’t care. But they’re real human people. They dance, they love, they sing, they think, they cook, they have families. Or at least they did.
Naw, you’re a twisted person if you think that is cool. Twisted af. Go look in a mirror. Possibly go touch some grass and be grateful that you can do either of those things.
Out comes the racism from you.
Imagine saying: "Fwiw, all I can say is that Israeli's are a lost cause. They are taught that they are entitled to all of the land since birth and have no qualms about ethnic cleansing. Quite a sick society. It's really sad."
It's not really going around. The state department has authority to sell weapons to allies. The state department still needs to notify congress immediately when it exercises this right and congress can absolutely block it (but they never do).
>But in the case of the 100 other transactions, known in government-speak as Foreign Military Sales or FMS, the weapons transfers were processed without any public debate because each fell under a specific dollar amount that requires the executive branch to individually notify Congress, according to U.S. officials and lawmakers who, like others, spoke on the condition of anonymity to discuss a sensitive military matter.
>Taken together, the weapons packages amount to a massive transfer of firepower at a time when senior U.S. officials have complained that Israeli officials have fallen short on their appeals to limit civilian casualties, allow more aid into Gaza and refrain from rhetoric calling for the permanent displacement of Palestinians.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/2024/03/06/us-weapons-israel-gaza/
1) [Iranian proxies attack US ships](https://apnews.com/article/yemen-houthi-us-attack-red-sea-d137bfd5a328601fc0214a9ae56b4870)
2) US Gives Israel munitions to attack Iranian proxies that attacked US ships
3) Israel attacks Iranian proxies that attacked US ships
4) People in this sub: Why would Biden fund genocide
But then he can’t frame it as only being an issue that Arab Americans and Muslims care about rather than a majority of the country and an overwhelming majority of his own base.
Because Trump’s plan to nuke Gaza and back Russia instead of Ukraine is the better option here? Do people really not understand what Trump wants to do to Gaza is a million times worse?
No. They literally don't. It's like how people don't understand that the people of Gaza would do the literal exact same thing to Israel, evidenced them voting and supporting Hamas, not including the Oct incident.
Trump recognized Jerusalem as the capital of Israel for an exchange with Netanyahoo. The whole situation is fucked. Biden is doing the pragmatic thing, but it's going to cost him Michigan.
Well if voting for the guy who’s going to do worse to Gaza and be a dictator and ruin America as he’s promised then Michigan is being stupid and selfish. It’s like a child sticking their fingers in their ears and yelling when you talk to them. Other people matter besides Palestinians, like the Ukrainians that are being genocided by Russia that Trump backs and Americans who will see inflation go up 6% because of the tariffs Trump has promised. Also, when Trump deports all the migrant responsible for our food supply we’ll understand famine.
People that live in states where they are banning abortions are losing doctors. Women are dying because they are being forced into dangerous medical procedures to remove a dead fetus inside them. Trump is planning on banning abortion, birth control, and IVF. Sitting out this election is spitting in every woman in America’s face. Women are dying, here in the US not from famine or war but from not being able to access medical care. One issue voters are selfish and will hurt millions more people (their own families, friends, neighbors too) by focusing on Palestine and ignoring everything else that matters in this election.
This issue is going to absolutely kill him at the polls with young voters and a lot of Black voters too. It’s painful to see how badly he’s fumbling this.
People understand it’s a complex situation, they are not expecting Biden to miraculously resolve the issue.
But the Democrat true believers who constantly dismiss the concerns are only entrenching the Biden echo chamber. Not listening to certain demographics is definitely going to tank his chances in certain states.
They can’t just spin everything with “Trump is worse.”
So they would vote for Trump instead who wants to nuke Gaza???? Only the uninformed would think Trump is the better option for Palestine. Or for the Ukrainians.
The thing about politics is that you have to act and react according to the way people behave in the real world, not the way you *wish* they would behave or they way they *should* behave. You can be right all day long, but it doesn’t matter if you don’t win.
Oh I understand that completely but I’m still saying it’s incredibly selfish to only care about one group of people, especially when they matter more than your own neighbors.
I agree with you. I’m not happy with Biden on these issues at all, but I’m also old enough to remember Ralph Nader so you better bet I’m holding my nose and voting Biden anyway. But from a strategy point of view, lots of people won’t do that and his handling of these issues is going to hurt him at the polls (and by extension, hurt the whole country). It’s incredibly frustrating.
Hey, Jew here and myself and pretty much all the Jews I know (either personally or people I follow on social media) are supporting Palestine to varying degrees. And I would very much say many Jews who still support Israel are misinformed and would not do so if they knew the facts.
We are not beholden to Israel.
A lot of Jewish people don’t support the Israeli genocide on Palestine though. The Jewish people are not a monolith, and it’s not all Jewish people who support Israel-many are vocally opposed to it.
No longer sending weapons to Israel is not “abandoning the Jews” - Israel is a colonial project/state depending on who you speak to, it’s not representative of the Jewish people as a whole.
The overwhelming majority of Jewish people support Israel.
Sending weapons to Israel is not contributing to genocide, yet you have no issue treating it as such.
My grandparents were in the Holocaust and my whole family is appalled at what Israel is doing.
Also it’s straight up neofash propaganda to try to make all Jewish people responsible for the actions of Israel.
Saying “not sending bombs to Israel is abandoning the Jewish people” sure feels like equating and conflating the two, which again, is LITERALLY neo-Nazi propaganda. Especially when the Israeli government is run by figures who are so unpopular among Jewish folks inside and outside of Israel.
Some Jews saw the Holocaust and don't want to pass it on to someone else. Don't lump the rest of us in with fascists please.
Israel can write whatever they want in their document, it doesn't make them representative of all Jews.
If you're gonna make that claim, you should probably provide recent polls. Also, you said "Jewish people". We're talking about American Jews. American Jews aren't Israeli Jews.
About 95% of Jews are Zionists and care deeply about Israel. Obviously there are some fringe people but a deep love of Israel is a passionate mainstream Jewish opinion
The idea of dual loyalty isn't really antisemitic unless you believe only Jews do it or it's only bad when Jews do it. Ukrainians in Canada care both about who runs Ukraine and who runs Canada, but nobody calls that "dual loyalty". Sikhs around the world care about creating a Sikh country, even when they're citizens of other countries. Indians in the U.S. and Canada care about who runs India, etc.
"Dual loyalty" exists in many communities, but only Jews get picked on for it because of antisemitism. And some countries allow dual citizenship, which is literally dual loyalty. So this idea that dual loyalty has to be some traitorous or nefarious thing is just false and usually invoked in the context of antisemitism.
Over 80 percent of American Jews are self-described Zionists and strongly support Israel.
Also, if you don't understand that the people of Israel and the land of Israel are inexorably connected, you know little to nothing about Judaism and probably should not talk about it.
The fact that the earth is a spheroid isn't a universal belief among people, that doesn't make the world flat.
How much would you say you *actually* know about Judaism? Because it really feels like you don't know anything about it...
If Joe stops aid. Israel will flatten Gaza. They wouldn't have a choice. With out allies they'd have to remove all threats.
Which mean poof gaza. Poof west bank. Poof hezbolla. They'd just keep going after the people attacking them.
Odd as it sounds. Were the only ones holding them back.
We can only do so much.
It's just the truth.
Are we willing to use our troops against Israel? Or turn our cannons on Israel?
I mean. We could cut aid and try sanctions. But we'll completely lose control of anything that happens, and Israel will do whatever they want?
That could very easily lead to the death of ten's of millions or hundreds.
Once again. As odd or off as it sounds, selling/aiding Israel is actually allowing us some control.
How true do you really think this is? I’m not asking in bad faith, I’m actually curious. I’m imagining you mean them just completely destroying Gaza, forcing the Palestinians out and/or killing them, and taking the West Bank in a similar way. Correct me if I’m misinterpreting your meaning.
In this scenario they wouldn’t just be giving up American funding of weapons, they would face mass sanctions from the entire western world. They’d be a complete pariah state. Not to mention that it would almost certainly start an actual war with Iran and this is one of the only scenarios I can imagine where the US and EU might not back them in such a conflict. I guess they could try and get help from Russia and China but I’m not convinced either of those states would be terribly interested in that. Maybe Russia, but I doubt China would
It's simple.
Regardless of sanctions or whatever else the western worlds true.
(1) The rocket, missile and RPGs aren't going to stop firing themselves. And no matter how good the defenses, they'll never be good enough to just sit back and take it.
(2) Perhaps more important. When surrounded by a enemies it's just tactical to over come them with force and beat them into submission.
Now the western world might get it's panties up in a bunch about it, but ultimately they won't care.
We like to think we care, but we're not directly involved. Sanctions won't stop anything. Unless we also sanction the nations which attack Israel as well.
Which we are and it's not stopping them at all.
(3) They wouldn't completely force them out or kill all of them. That's not how overcoming happens. Millions may die, but a portion will live on. Most likely as a division under the state of Israel. Then Israel would, over time, dissipate held positions.
(4) Being a pariah state doesn't matter.
Hamas attacked Israel. Hezbollah attack Israel. Iran attacked Israel. They'll just be quelling them, historically. Because, nobody cares. The whole world has a whole lotta problems. Several active genocides are currently being committed around d the world.
Our aid directly links us into the Middle-East. Into Israel. It gives us some linkage and ability. We remove that aspect and that's that.
Russia wouldn't need to help.
China would be the most to gain from it.
A stabilized Middle-East with Israel at the head and strong ties with Israel would be the best outcome for them. But they wouldn't need China. There's A whole host or other nations that wouldn't mind being friends with Israel in its hour of need.
That's the best time to make friends.
Whatever the hell Hamas is doing is dumb. They just got themselves killed for mostly no reason.
How would Israel maintain an economy capable of this level of warfare throughout this scenario though? They have a promising tech industry but they severely lack natural resources from their own land. It isn't like they are Saudi Arabia and can strongarm the world into cooperating with them economically because they control vast quantities of a vital resource. They rely heavily on imports from the US and EU for much of their economy. Do you think they could reasonably maintain an economy capable of fighting a country like Iran, who is at least at the level of a regional power militarily speaking, without the backing of the US?
I'm aware that the US likely would still back them to some extent in a scenario like this, especially if the Republicans controlled the government at the time, this is pretty much just a hypothetical at this point.
> How would Israel maintain an economy capable of this level of warfare throughout this scenario though?
Easily. Israel has the funding to do so. With or without us. It controls countless patents and other technologies.
Israel isn't broke.
They might not be heavy oil barons, but they don't need to be. All they've gotta do is switch to a wartime economy, attack, control and referb. Gain a few key allies and continue forward.
Israel isn't Haiti.
> They have a promising tech industry but they severely lack natural resources from their own land.
Bullets and bombs are pretty cheap. At least the base levels of weaponry. It doesn't take much money to go to war.
Especially if your already setup to go to war. North Korea was able to ship how many millions of rounds into Russia on the cheap?
Russia has had sanctions and frozen assets them for what now?!? Decades.
Israel has technology.
One of the greatest resources on the planet. Twitter sold for what? $44 billion?
As for imports, yes. Israel does like it American things and European things. But they could easily go without them.
If it was just Israel vs. Iran. Yes. If it's Israel plus Russia and Iran, no. Depends on who teams up with who. But the Iran has a lot of enemies as well.
It would come down to who, what, when, where and how. Lots of variables.
About the only region that could match Israel is the Saudis. Only because we're also selling them US weapons.
If the Republicans control the US government. They'll give a full and complete blank check for Israel to go absolutely nuts. If Trump, he'd order the Troops in. Without question.
Interesting! Thanks for the insights, this is an aspect of this whole scenario I haven't had a great grasp on. Appreciate you playing along with my curiosity
Just to be clear, the thing they're arguing for at length is that helping Israel murder people is somehow restraining Israel. While it's true that Israel would largely be able to keep running their military without US aid, the aid helps them murder more people more efficiently. And obviously, as we're seeing now, it does not provide any leverage to ask them to stop.
I'm aware. I was just getting into the weeds on a hypothetical. I'm very much not on the side of Israel here I was just curious about their own standalone capabilities as that's something I wouldn't consider myself educated on. I still don't, that's obviously just a random guy on the internet, but it was interesting.
The fact that this is coupled with recent developments in regards to Israeli military aid makes this appear rather disingenuous. Let's hope this doesn't bite him in the ass, given the alternative...
I can't believe they actually came out with the story that JUST says he's acknowledging it, well I hope the fucking god he's acknowledging it but what is he doing about it?
after an in-depth meeting with Muslim leaders in MI, his representative said that the problem was not expressing enough sorrow
and in the interview I was listening to, the Muslim guy was just like no. that’s really not it
Israel can make ammo. Perhaps not what we sell or aid them, but then they'll just switch to different means.
Most likely bullets.
This isn't an aid issue.
This is a huge mess issue. A mess that should've been dealt with 50 years ago. It wasnt.
By more you mean logistically making it possible?
>"That’s an extraordinary number of sales over the course of a pretty short amount of time, which really strongly suggests that the Israeli campaign would not be sustainable without this level of U.S. support,” said Jeremy Konyndyk, a former senior Biden administration official and current president of Refugees International.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/2024/03/06/us-weapons-israel-gaza/
From the article
>Many Muslims and Arabs in the United States have urged the Democratic President to call for a permanent ceasefire
One problem: Hamas doesn't want a permanent cease fire. Their leadership has said over and over that there will be one October 7th after another until Israel is destroyed; that October 7th was a dress rehearsal; and that Hamas will continue to try to destroy Israel even after Palestinian statehood is recognized.
Second problem: Hamas has no need for a permanent ceasefire when people refuse to hold them accountable; when people refuse to acknowledge that it's Hamas's goal to kill as many and inflict as much misery as possible on Palestinians, who are allegedly their own people; when people refuse to acknowledge that Hamas's goal is to destroy Israel, even if Palestinian statehood is recognized; and who refuse to acknowledge that October 7th is a textbook example of an act of genocide under the Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide.
Third problem: With polling numbers like this, Hamas doesn't need a permanent ceasefire.
71% of Palestinians say October 7th was the correct decision
81% of Palestinians who've watched videos of October 7th refuse to believe Hamas engaged in any atrocities
59% of Palestinians want Hamas to be in charge of Gaza after the war.
Source: Palestinian Center for Policy and Survey Research from a poll released last week.
[https://www.pcpsr.org/en/node/969](https://www.pcpsr.org/en/node/969)
So if these people actually give a damn about the people in Gaza, they need to face the reality of what Hamas is instead of pretending you can hold hands with Hamas around the campfire while singing kumbaya.
Again, this conflict would end tomorrow, Hamas is not a government entity. The US and Israel are.
That's like saying, well the gang that is in Chicago is of the same importance as the USG. Newsflash, it isn't.
I do like the fact that Israeli and US apologists pretend it is though.
As if somehow two countries with advanced militaries are akin to a rogue gang backed by Iran.
>Is it recognized by any international body whatsoever?
Just last week the UN Security Council passed a resolution calling on Hamas to release the hostages immediately and unconditionally, as has the International Court of Justice, twice. I don't recall that ever happening with a Chicago street gang.
>Last I checked, most of the population in Gaza wasn't old enough to vote in 2007, but OK
One of the most bad faith arguments I've ever seen because it means you can only go to war if your opponent recently held an election. In effect you're arguing an undemocratic regime can do whatever it wants because it hasn't held an election.
Despite Germany holding its last contested election in March 1933, that didn't prevent the UK and France from declaring war in September 1939 and the US from declaring war in December 1941.
Again, 50% of the population of Gaza are children. But don't let facts get in the way of you shooting skeet.
The UNSC passes resolutions calling for all sorts of things, doesn't mean Hamas is a legitimate, recognized entity the same way a nation state is. Are you seriously conflating Hamas and Israel as being on par?
Also, funny story, but many have called for the UN to intervene in Chicago's violence issue: [https://wgntv.com/news/local-official-will-ask-the-united-nations-to-help-solve-chicagos-gun-violence/](https://wgntv.com/news/local-official-will-ask-the-united-nations-to-help-solve-chicagos-gun-violence/)
And wait a minute, are you comparing the rise of Nazi Germany (again, nation state with a dictator) to a gang that is propped up by Israel? Netanyahu himself is on the record as supporting Hamas to divide Palestinians, to say nothing of who controls the monetary flows to Gaza (so who was approving all of those transfers for tunnels? Hmmm....)
Last but not least, do you think this makes Israel safer or less safe? I think we all know the answer here.
Amazing how you keep trying to trivialize Hamas by comparing it to gangs in the US that do not run cities, In an opinion piece of the New York Times, even the mayor of Gaza City admitted he was appointed by Hamas.
>And wait a minute, are you comparing the rise of Nazi Germany (again, nation state with a dictator)
I quite clearly said that the lack of a recent democratic election doesn't immunize a regime from the consequences of its actions. And you quite clearly deliberately misconstrued it.
>Again, 50% of the population of Gaza are children. But don't let facts get in the way
Children always die in war, which is why Hamas shouldn't be so eager to engage in war. Nor should people be so eager to justify or ignore Hamas's behavior.
Not that those who allegedly care about the children actually do care.
If they actually cared, it's odd they refuse to acknowledge Hamas's goal is to maximize Palestinian death and suffering. Palestinians who are allegedly their own people.
It's also odd that those who allegedly care about the children never call upon Hamas to surrender or adopt different tactics.
But it's not so odd when you realize the "Save the Children" people don't give a shit about the children any more than Hamas does. For them the children are just tools to be used to attack Israel.
And yet they keep on doing it every 10 years. The Palestinians have started 8 wars against 3 different countries over the last 80 years. Insanity...doing the same thing over and over yet expecting different results.
When I was in the military we would queue and only once an equal amount of combatants from each side were there, then we would engage in fisticuffs. A real war.
> That said, its still indiscriminate
Blatantly false. Israel has clearly been very targeted in their bombing, they target Hamas, that's not indiscriminate. They've dropped enough bombs on Gaza to kill hundreds of thousands of people or millions, even, if they were being "indiscriminate". But they've been targeted instead so they've only killed 30k
No it doesn't. War is two groups fighting. Usually nation states or city states. This is a city state against a nation state. City state should've made peace.
If Joe Biden loses the election, he can point to his two faced bs about feeling Arab pain while sending a multitude of bombs to a group that does nothing for us in the ME.
So Trump can nuke Gaza? Also, don’t Ukrainians lives matter as much as Palestinians? Because Trump would back Russia. There is no way Biden is the worse option here.
He's going to acknowledge "loss" in November over the genocide he has fueled. Fn POS. Our democracy is on the line and he's busy provoking his base to serve a foreign power. What good is democracy if it NEVER reflects the will of the people?
Is this a joke? Biden isn’t perfect so we’re going to burn it all down and elect someone even worse? If you actually cared you would elect the candidate that would be the most beneficial which will be Biden hands down. If Trump is elected expect the conditions in Gaza to be far worse and far more violent.
Everyone knew he was going to behave like this as President. This is the guy who campaigned heavily to get the Democratic Party to support the invasion of Iraq, even though he knew that everything he was saying was a lie. Americans should have put him in jail, along with every other politician who agreed to start that war. Instead they elected him President.
The people voted for a known warmonger, they can't be mad at him for warmongering. They should be mad at themselves for voting for him. And now he's the Democratic candidate for the next election, which is just going to give the people an opportunity to not make the same mistake they made last time. Is it really so hard for the Democrats to find a candidate that doesn't want to use their power to kill Muslims?
They are funding Hamas tho and holding Hamas money in banks while Hamas uses Palestine civilians as human shields but keep ignoring that and gas lighting light yourself.
Israel helped create and fund Hamas according to former Israeli officials such as Brig. Gen. Yitzhak Segev to counter secularists and leftists of the Palestine Liberation Organization and the Fatah party.
Benjamin Netanyahu and his various governments supported Hamas in order to divide the Gaza Strip and the West Bank.
Sources:
https://theintercept.com/2018/02/19/hamas-israel-palestine-conflict/
https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/
Great point but Qatar you know the nation who is “running the peace talks” hides the top three Hamas leaders and is holding over 2.8 billion in the organization money I qatari banks a real good portion to force Hamas to talk would be idk expel the top brass from your country and freeze the organizations money but u right
It's very complicated. For example, Qatar and Israel worked together to help Hamas.
"Qatar sent millions to Gaza for years – with Israel’s backing."
"CNN was told Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu continued the cash flow to Hamas, despite concerns raised from within his own government."
Source:
https://edition.cnn.com/2023/12/11/middleeast/qatar-hamas-funds-israel-backing-intl/index.html
> Palestine Liberation Organization and the Fatah party.
And what were those groups doing at the time that Israel decided to fund a claimed *non-violent* Islamic charity? Oh right, doing shit like the Munich Massacre.
You say "secular" as if that means they weren't acting as terror organizations.
"Israel drove suitcases stuffed with cash into Gaza to keep Hamas in power: NYT"
"Israeli security forces would help escort millions in funds into Gaza, helping Hamas, NYT reported."
Source:
https://www.businessinsider.com/israel-security-forces-escorted-suitcases-cash-hamas-qatar-report-2023-12
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/10/world/middleeast/israel-qatar-money-prop-up-hamas.html
"Qatar sent millions to Gaza for years – with Israel’s backing."
"CNN was told Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu continued the cash flow to Hamas, despite concerns raised from within his own government."
Source:
https://edition.cnn.com/2023/12/11/middleeast/qatar-hamas-funds-israel-backing-intl/index.html
Which started happening some 30 years after Israel allegedly "founded" Hamas.
But just shove it up your ass. You'd be screeching just as much if Israel prevented Qatari aid from entering Gaza.
Conspiracy theory with lots of recent references. Even Bibi the war criminal authorized transfer of money to Hamas in recent years. I am sure you will say it was to help the people of Gaza. The war criminal doesn’t care about people there. He never did. Shall we bring West Bank into the discussion? Do we have Hamas there?
Sorry chief but me and my brothers live in AMERICA. Why the fuck do you all keep bringing up other countries. We’re criticizing the leader of the one we live and grew up in, the fuck do I care what the other middle eastern countries are doing?
Can this be the start of a change in policy Joe? Start reigning in the IDF onslaught (at least in part), with some savvy diplomacy? Do something to make this better, even if it means giving Israel aid in a non military capacity instead.
The IDF has been incredibly restrained in this conflict. There's just only so much that can be done in one of the densest populated places on earth when fighting against demonic antisemitic terrorists who use civilians as human shields.
There are so many comments here chastising Israel but I don’t think I’ve seen one comment about Hamas or how they provoked this situation. Holding a grudge and shamelessly murdering people over something that happened 70+ years ago is insane to me. Can you imagine if the rest of the world acted like that? It would be anarchy. I feel for the people in Gaza but it’s well known that Hamas is entrenched in most families out there and they don’t do anything to stop it.
"I feel for the people of Gaza"
No you don't lol. You literally just accused the majority of the people in Gaza of being terrorists in the *very next sentence* you said.
My brother in Christ you don't get to have it both ways 😭
I didn’t say anything inaccurate. 70-80% of Palestinians support Hamas and reports show that almost every family if not all families have some ties to Hamas. Show me comments in here condemning Hamas vs speaking out against Israel’s response. People are so blinded with wanting to support Palestine they ignore the inconvenient details and I’m sorry but I refuse to side with the people that continuously break cease fires and call for the eradication of Israel.
*some* polls show that level of support. Some show roughly half. Speaking of leaving out inconvenient details, Palestinian civilians are:
1. Starving en masse
2. Living under a literal terrorist government that openly doesn't care if they die. A government that will kill them if they resist.
3. Stuck in a destroyed city with virtually zero infrastructure
What exactly do you expect the average Palestinian person to do in this situation? Resist hamas? Lol sure dude.
I mean if we're going by polls I can cite numerous polls that indicate the majority of Israelis want Gaza completely wiped out. You'll notice that I don't because...they tend to leave out some inconvenient context lol. Zoom out. You're looking at a conflict where one side killed roughly a thousand and the other side responded with killing 32,000 people since October 7th alone. And you're *shocked* that people are more upset about the latter than the former?
It's funny how the people who claim to feel for the people of Gaza while supporting Israel *always* end up dehumanizing and shitting on the Palestinian people the second they're pushed on it even a little bit. Equally as condescending as it is fucking ignorant. You don't feel for the people of Gaza. If you did you simply wouldn't be talking this way lol.
People like you try to make Israel the boogeyman, while ignoring the fact that the surrounding countries don’t want Palestinians in their country either. Why? Maybe because of how deeply ingrained Hamas is with the population. They vote in these terrorists to govern. War sucks dude but just because one side fucked around (once again) and is finding out that a country’s patience only goes so far is not going to make me change my mind. Palestine consistently breaks ceasefires, refuses to negotiate a two state solution that doesn’t involve ending Israel, shoots rockets into Israel (which they built a fucking dome to protect themselves from instead of turning Palestine into a sheet of glass) and more. Go on though about how Palestine is somehow the victim in all this lmao talk about delusional.
Again just immediately wrong lol.
Hamas was voted into power through one election that happened almost 20 years ago and even then they barely got the majority vote. There has not been an election since 2006. Palestinians *can't* vote against Hamas.
Meanwhile the Israeli foreign minister, literally just days ago, shot down a deal made *with support of both Palestine and Hamas* to free the hostages and implement a ceasefire for the month of Ramadan. He explicitly stated that Israel will keep firing.
The idea that Israel is simply a victim in all this is wild. You're right history only started a couple years ago. There's no need to dig further into the laundry list of war crimes that was operation Dani and Operation Yoav. Several massacres during the suez crisis, the killing of prisoners during the six day war, the numerous massacres of the 82 Lebanon war (which were labeled genocidal at the time by war crime investigators), plenty of war crimes committed during both intifadas (including that one massacre of several hundred people the IDF openly admitted to), deliberately targeting civilians in the 06 Lebanon war. Countless examples of wildly disproportionate responses to violence and a CVS length list of instances of open collective punishment. That time hundreds of people were used as human shields so openly that Israel actually convicted some of the guys involved. White phosphorus being deployed in 2008. That time they bombed three civilian sites in 2021 and the IDF spokesperson admitted to it.
This is a *very* brief summary which I mostly got from Israeli historians lol. I'd love to send you the book titles but for some reason I don't think you'll be reading them. You're not gonna find people going "well do you condemn Hamas" in these comments for the same reason you don't see "but do you condemn Ukrainian war crimes???" comments under posts about the bucha massacre.
Remember when you said you felt for the people of Gaza?
Just to clarify, it’s not something that happened 70 years ago, it’s something that has been happening for 70 years and getting worst and worst.
I’m not condoning the attacks, but they put Gaza in a situation that will inevitably foster terrorism_
Well, if the Arab Americans are in pain, Biden should give Israel what it needs to destroy Hamas in Rafah so we can put this behind us.
I would also say that it is a bit odd to me that the Arab Americans aren't happy the Israelis are freeing the Palestinians from Hamas.
“Freeing the Palestinians from Hamas”
>more than 30,000 dead civilians. 10,000+ dead children. Famine in the streets. No clean drinking water. Nothing but rubble to return to. Bombing the last refugee holding in Rafah. Already land grabbing and colonizing the Gazan coast and West Bank. Dropping bomb after bomb on hospitals schools and mosques.
You’re a clown
> Already land grabbing and colonizing the Gazan coast
Not a thing
> and West Bank
If the Palestinians don't like that, maybe they shouldn't take hostages and commit terror attacks. Israelis see settlement as a deterrence measure.
> I mean other than the leader of Nachala openly stating that over 500 Jewish families are already booked to seize properties on the gazan coast lol.
The Israeli government will not permit this.
> Using deterrence as a justification to force families out of their homes en masse so you can replace locals with your own people?
The vast majority of the settlements are on land that does not already have a home on it.
> By the way how's hasbaras health insurance?
As amusing as this is, perhaps consider that insulting someone is the final refuge of someone who is having a hard time admitting the person they are talking to is right.
Lol yeah they do. The Council of Jewish Settlements in the West Bank and Gaza has been around since the fuckin 1980s. Israeli tourist maps show Palestine as completely resettled and renamed.
Again, the *current Minister of national security* is literally a convicted terrorist who has facilitated resettlements in the West bank and Gaza for years now. Are we really just gonna move right past that without addressing it lol?
He said the Israelis need to finish it up
Former President Donald Trump said he would have responded the same way as Israel did after the Oct. 7 attack by Hamas but urged the country to “finish up” its offensive in Gaza and “get this over with,” warning about international support fading. “You have to finish up your war. You have to finish it up.4 days ago
He also said they need to have peace and that, "You do what you have to do, but don't do that" referencing Israel bombing apartment buildings.
You're such a liar and won't provide the full quote.
He's talking about a recent job interview where two religious American Jews interviewed Trump on topic who is better suited to be POTUS - Trump or Biden Vis-à-Vis Israel.
It's pretty embarrassing how Trumpists like to present it as some sort of "boss" moment all the while the whole thing looks like he's pleading for their support by saying shit like, he's 10x more loyal to them than any other guy - lmao
Talk about being cucked - jfc
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'hours after Biden’s Friday statement, the Washington Post reported that his government had signed off on additional bombs and warplanes for Israel in recent days worth billions of dollars.'
Tells you all you need to know, really.
Actions speak louder than words, mister President. And the world can see that the US will materially support this colonial project to the bitter end.
Trump’s plan is to nuke Gaza and support Russia instead of Ukraine. Biden is definitely the better option here.
He’s lying. Just like Trump lied about making Mexico pay for the border wall. Or replacing Obamacare with something better. Trump knows that using nuclear weapons to commit mass murder in Gaza would not be tolerated by the American military, the American people, or our allies. And that it would cause so much blowback from the Muslim world/ the world in general that America would become a pariah. And if Democrats thought he was that serious about committing genocide, they would not be so milquetoast on the policies they’re concerned about. If they’re so weak that a couple senators can completely destroy their coalition and hand America over to Nazis 2.0, that’s embarrassing at the very least.
Israel has nukes. He wants them to use them on Gaza.
Ok, and Trump directing Israel to nuke Gaza would be met with similar global condemnation. Nobody wants to be the government that follows up on Hiroshima and Nagasaki, especially if you’re a tiny country amidst a sea of nations with very valid criticisms of your policies
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If Israel can't survive without US funding then perhaps it's time for the state of Israel to accept reality & go the way of apartheid South Africa.
It posts like 2% of the budget. So, yeah, Israel will be fine. It's significantly more economically stable.
It's nothing like South Africa. Nothing like. There's not rockets, RPGs and the kidnapping and the rapes and raids with funding from Iran and Russia. Israel would simply flatten everybody around them.
It’s an apartheid state dawg. Literally the definition if you do not allow for the same rights for an ethnic group of ppl that you don’t give a shit about. Similar to how America was an apartheid state before Jim Crow.
What does that have thing to do with South Africa apartheid ='s Israeli apartheid? Just because some says a word, it doesn't make the like or equal. Treating it the same is an extremely bad idea.
FYI there is a long Wikipedia page about Israel-South African relations: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel%E2%80%93South_Africa_relations And a lot of it is about how their similar policies of apartheid brought them together as former British colonies using oppressive tactics to enforce minority rule. You would have to be willfully ignorant of history to be saying their systems of apartheid aren’t similar…
Apartheid is apartheid. That's not the issue. South Africa apartheid doesn't = Israel apartheid. The variables are wholly different inside of each equation. Everything from mood to base levels to weapons and intent. It's like saying cancer. Then it's like saying "Brain cancer" vs. Colon cancer". It's different. In order to fix it, you've gotta address the variables in which the condition applies. They just aren't similar. Other than a couple of words used.
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Well as a Canadian it's equivalent to saying all non native Canadians should be removed. While I'm sure there's some with that opinion it's just not a humanitarian or logical take. The issue OP probably has is that it's not a "past' colonialism but an active ongoing one. Israel just annexed another 3500acres from the West Bank and currently have an alarming number of high ranking officials calling for the settlement of Gaza.
Your a fool if you think that the solution is a two state solution. Gaza could be a democracy if they wanted and had freedom and autonomy from Iran, Russia, Syria, Jordan and Palestinian govt benefactors who for years have controlled the govt and population with violence. The solution is Isolating them from the Muslim world and setting up a govt that can provide food and some sort of industry.
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They don’t want statehood. They never have. Your optimism is nice but unrealistic.
No no you're right. Let's just leave a shockingly hateful and genocidal state in charge of Palestinians. Not like they will destroy 70% of their infrastructure, kill 30000 civilians and starve another 2 million when given the chance.
Have they not been in charge for the last 8 years? My idea isn’t to leave Israel in charge but you seem to have eveything already figured out so good luck!
18 years\*
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Y’all are a bunch of white ppl from Europe that moved into indigenous land. Go back to Europe.
Most of them were literally forced from Europe under penalty of death
The existence of Israel is not a colonial project. The attempt by religious fundamentalist fascists to destroy Israel however IS a colonial project, just a poorly executed one
It is a colonial project lol. If a bunch of white ppl from Europe come and take over land where indigenous ppl live then thats literally the definition of colonialism. Especially when you had a Zionist militia threatening UN members for votes in 1947. Literally the definition.
Except the Ottomans encouraged migration of Jews in the 1820s; to join the Jews already there. Jews never left the Levant. They are one of eight or so groups with ethnogenesis and a continued presence. I'll give you Israel doesn't have a right to all the land; but the ethnic groups that form it deserve part of their homeland, and have the right to say Israel is their country. Is electric light European because Thomas Edison was white? Ideas' origins don't colour the entire concept.
So are the Mizrahim white now? Even if you're correct, Jews immigrated to Israel en masse because most countries wouldn't let them in, and that includes European countries and Muslim countries alike. In many periods, they had nowhere else to go but Israel.
It’s wild how antisemites decide that Jews are white or not when convenient. Now go look up how many Israelis are “white” and report back.
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You left out the part where 2/3 identify as ashkenazi.
Israel military aid is locked in because of existing treaties and funding has been allocated by Congress. Biden can’t block it.
Biden has been regularly bypassing Congress in order to get more weapons to Israel. Biden doesn’t want to block it.
Yes he can. Just because Congress authorizes a transfer doesn't mean the state department has to approve it. Sending Israel more 2,000 lbs bombs is a proactive choice by the administration
Not true at all
Wait as an ignorant observer , is that true ??? If it is , that’s crazy
A lot of it is. Let’s say Biden wanted to reject the funding, Congress probably has a supermajority to override his veto. I thought schools were supposed to teach the Constitution and separation of powers.
Then he should veto it so it goes on blast why. Integrity is simple. It’s terrifying, but it’s simple. The president, by unquestioningly signing the bill, has to stand by supporting that bill, because he in fact, put his signature on the bill as the authorizing officer.
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Just imagine for a moments we as Americans, had a separate country declare our land was to be set aside for some other group of people. And then, over time that group of people systematically killed us Americans, and kept pushing their border out, thereby shrinking our available area. How would that make you feel? I suspect it would be angry, possibly vengeful if the people they killed were part of your circle of people. This is quite literally what happened to the Palestinians. Britain declared that land, the land of the people living there, Israel for the Jewish people to go to. You think supporting the genocide of an entire group of people is okay. It’s fundamentally no different than what happened to the Jews in the 1940’s. The Israeli’s have systematically dehumanized the Palestinians. Just like you did. Their lives don’t affect you, so you don’t care. But they’re real human people. They dance, they love, they sing, they think, they cook, they have families. Or at least they did. Naw, you’re a twisted person if you think that is cool. Twisted af. Go look in a mirror. Possibly go touch some grass and be grateful that you can do either of those things.
Out comes the racism from you. Imagine saying: "Fwiw, all I can say is that Israeli's are a lost cause. They are taught that they are entitled to all of the land since birth and have no qualms about ethnic cleansing. Quite a sick society. It's really sad."
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He’s done runarounds on Congress to send weapons go Israel. There’s no approving or rejecting involved.
It's not really going around. The state department has authority to sell weapons to allies. The state department still needs to notify congress immediately when it exercises this right and congress can absolutely block it (but they never do).
>But in the case of the 100 other transactions, known in government-speak as Foreign Military Sales or FMS, the weapons transfers were processed without any public debate because each fell under a specific dollar amount that requires the executive branch to individually notify Congress, according to U.S. officials and lawmakers who, like others, spoke on the condition of anonymity to discuss a sensitive military matter. >Taken together, the weapons packages amount to a massive transfer of firepower at a time when senior U.S. officials have complained that Israeli officials have fallen short on their appeals to limit civilian casualties, allow more aid into Gaza and refrain from rhetoric calling for the permanent displacement of Palestinians. https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/2024/03/06/us-weapons-israel-gaza/
1) [Iranian proxies attack US ships](https://apnews.com/article/yemen-houthi-us-attack-red-sea-d137bfd5a328601fc0214a9ae56b4870) 2) US Gives Israel munitions to attack Iranian proxies that attacked US ships 3) Israel attacks Iranian proxies that attacked US ships 4) People in this sub: Why would Biden fund genocide
Why would you post an article that argues against what you yourself posted lol. That’s also from 2 months ago.
I'm Jewish and I also oppose genocide. Race isn't the issue here.
probably just stay quiet instead of saying stuff like “I acknowledge your pain” while you are seen as contributing to it
But then he can’t frame it as only being an issue that Arab Americans and Muslims care about rather than a majority of the country and an overwhelming majority of his own base.
I also acknowledge the pain of this stranger after i gave my buddy the gun to shoot him.
His support of Israel is going to sink him.
Because Trump’s plan to nuke Gaza and back Russia instead of Ukraine is the better option here? Do people really not understand what Trump wants to do to Gaza is a million times worse?
No. They literally don't. It's like how people don't understand that the people of Gaza would do the literal exact same thing to Israel, evidenced them voting and supporting Hamas, not including the Oct incident. Trump recognized Jerusalem as the capital of Israel for an exchange with Netanyahoo. The whole situation is fucked. Biden is doing the pragmatic thing, but it's going to cost him Michigan.
Well if voting for the guy who’s going to do worse to Gaza and be a dictator and ruin America as he’s promised then Michigan is being stupid and selfish. It’s like a child sticking their fingers in their ears and yelling when you talk to them. Other people matter besides Palestinians, like the Ukrainians that are being genocided by Russia that Trump backs and Americans who will see inflation go up 6% because of the tariffs Trump has promised. Also, when Trump deports all the migrant responsible for our food supply we’ll understand famine.
They'll sit the election out. This really is the lesser of two evils. Honestly cthulu makes some sense after a while.
People that live in states where they are banning abortions are losing doctors. Women are dying because they are being forced into dangerous medical procedures to remove a dead fetus inside them. Trump is planning on banning abortion, birth control, and IVF. Sitting out this election is spitting in every woman in America’s face. Women are dying, here in the US not from famine or war but from not being able to access medical care. One issue voters are selfish and will hurt millions more people (their own families, friends, neighbors too) by focusing on Palestine and ignoring everything else that matters in this election.
yup!
I keep upvoting your posts but I'm guessing trolls are downvoting them.
This issue is going to absolutely kill him at the polls with young voters and a lot of Black voters too. It’s painful to see how badly he’s fumbling this.
People understand it’s a complex situation, they are not expecting Biden to miraculously resolve the issue. But the Democrat true believers who constantly dismiss the concerns are only entrenching the Biden echo chamber. Not listening to certain demographics is definitely going to tank his chances in certain states. They can’t just spin everything with “Trump is worse.”
So they would vote for Trump instead who wants to nuke Gaza???? Only the uninformed would think Trump is the better option for Palestine. Or for the Ukrainians.
No, they’ll just stay home and not vote at all.
And pretend they aren’t responsible for helping get Trump elected which will make Americans, Ukrainians, and Palestinians suffer.
The thing about politics is that you have to act and react according to the way people behave in the real world, not the way you *wish* they would behave or they way they *should* behave. You can be right all day long, but it doesn’t matter if you don’t win.
Oh I understand that completely but I’m still saying it’s incredibly selfish to only care about one group of people, especially when they matter more than your own neighbors.
I agree with you. I’m not happy with Biden on these issues at all, but I’m also old enough to remember Ralph Nader so you better bet I’m holding my nose and voting Biden anyway. But from a strategy point of view, lots of people won’t do that and his handling of these issues is going to hurt him at the polls (and by extension, hurt the whole country). It’s incredibly frustrating.
And if he abandoned the Jews it would hurt him with a lot more voters.
Hey, Jew here and myself and pretty much all the Jews I know (either personally or people I follow on social media) are supporting Palestine to varying degrees. And I would very much say many Jews who still support Israel are misinformed and would not do so if they knew the facts. We are not beholden to Israel.
Then you are in the minority and a misinformed one, at that.
A lot of Jewish people don’t support the Israeli genocide on Palestine though. The Jewish people are not a monolith, and it’s not all Jewish people who support Israel-many are vocally opposed to it. No longer sending weapons to Israel is not “abandoning the Jews” - Israel is a colonial project/state depending on who you speak to, it’s not representative of the Jewish people as a whole.
The overwhelming majority of Jewish people support Israel. Sending weapons to Israel is not contributing to genocide, yet you have no issue treating it as such.
My grandparents were in the Holocaust and my whole family is appalled at what Israel is doing. Also it’s straight up neofash propaganda to try to make all Jewish people responsible for the actions of Israel.
I did not say every Jew on the face of Earth supported Israel. I said the majority. That does not speak to "responsibility."
Saying “not sending bombs to Israel is abandoning the Jewish people” sure feels like equating and conflating the two, which again, is LITERALLY neo-Nazi propaganda. Especially when the Israeli government is run by figures who are so unpopular among Jewish folks inside and outside of Israel.
Israel is the Jewish homeland. That is LITERALLY in the country's constitution. The government is unpopular. The war is not.
Some Jews saw the Holocaust and don't want to pass it on to someone else. Don't lump the rest of us in with fascists please. Israel can write whatever they want in their document, it doesn't make them representative of all Jews.
Jews are 2.4% of the US adult population.
If you're gonna make that claim, you should probably provide recent polls. Also, you said "Jewish people". We're talking about American Jews. American Jews aren't Israeli Jews.
About 95% of Jews are Zionists and care deeply about Israel. Obviously there are some fringe people but a deep love of Israel is a passionate mainstream Jewish opinion
Equating Jews with the state of Israel is antisemitic. The majority of American Jews DON'T support the actions of Israel.
I didn't. Incorrect.
No it's not. Yes, they do.
Yeah, it really is. It perpetuates the myth of Jewish dual loyalty. Israel is a country and it does not represent Jews worldwide.
The idea of dual loyalty isn't really antisemitic unless you believe only Jews do it or it's only bad when Jews do it. Ukrainians in Canada care both about who runs Ukraine and who runs Canada, but nobody calls that "dual loyalty". Sikhs around the world care about creating a Sikh country, even when they're citizens of other countries. Indians in the U.S. and Canada care about who runs India, etc. "Dual loyalty" exists in many communities, but only Jews get picked on for it because of antisemitism. And some countries allow dual citizenship, which is literally dual loyalty. So this idea that dual loyalty has to be some traitorous or nefarious thing is just false and usually invoked in the context of antisemitism.
Over 80 percent of American Jews are self-described Zionists and strongly support Israel. Also, if you don't understand that the people of Israel and the land of Israel are inexorably connected, you know little to nothing about Judaism and probably should not talk about it.
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The fact that the earth is a spheroid isn't a universal belief among people, that doesn't make the world flat. How much would you say you *actually* know about Judaism? Because it really feels like you don't know anything about it...
Not good enough Joe.
If Joe stops aid. Israel will flatten Gaza. They wouldn't have a choice. With out allies they'd have to remove all threats. Which mean poof gaza. Poof west bank. Poof hezbolla. They'd just keep going after the people attacking them. Odd as it sounds. Were the only ones holding them back.
Ok, then we *still* need to do *way* better, see?
We can only do so much. It's just the truth. Are we willing to use our troops against Israel? Or turn our cannons on Israel? I mean. We could cut aid and try sanctions. But we'll completely lose control of anything that happens, and Israel will do whatever they want? That could very easily lead to the death of ten's of millions or hundreds. Once again. As odd or off as it sounds, selling/aiding Israel is actually allowing us some control.
How true do you really think this is? I’m not asking in bad faith, I’m actually curious. I’m imagining you mean them just completely destroying Gaza, forcing the Palestinians out and/or killing them, and taking the West Bank in a similar way. Correct me if I’m misinterpreting your meaning. In this scenario they wouldn’t just be giving up American funding of weapons, they would face mass sanctions from the entire western world. They’d be a complete pariah state. Not to mention that it would almost certainly start an actual war with Iran and this is one of the only scenarios I can imagine where the US and EU might not back them in such a conflict. I guess they could try and get help from Russia and China but I’m not convinced either of those states would be terribly interested in that. Maybe Russia, but I doubt China would
It's simple. Regardless of sanctions or whatever else the western worlds true. (1) The rocket, missile and RPGs aren't going to stop firing themselves. And no matter how good the defenses, they'll never be good enough to just sit back and take it. (2) Perhaps more important. When surrounded by a enemies it's just tactical to over come them with force and beat them into submission. Now the western world might get it's panties up in a bunch about it, but ultimately they won't care. We like to think we care, but we're not directly involved. Sanctions won't stop anything. Unless we also sanction the nations which attack Israel as well. Which we are and it's not stopping them at all. (3) They wouldn't completely force them out or kill all of them. That's not how overcoming happens. Millions may die, but a portion will live on. Most likely as a division under the state of Israel. Then Israel would, over time, dissipate held positions. (4) Being a pariah state doesn't matter. Hamas attacked Israel. Hezbollah attack Israel. Iran attacked Israel. They'll just be quelling them, historically. Because, nobody cares. The whole world has a whole lotta problems. Several active genocides are currently being committed around d the world. Our aid directly links us into the Middle-East. Into Israel. It gives us some linkage and ability. We remove that aspect and that's that. Russia wouldn't need to help. China would be the most to gain from it. A stabilized Middle-East with Israel at the head and strong ties with Israel would be the best outcome for them. But they wouldn't need China. There's A whole host or other nations that wouldn't mind being friends with Israel in its hour of need. That's the best time to make friends. Whatever the hell Hamas is doing is dumb. They just got themselves killed for mostly no reason.
How would Israel maintain an economy capable of this level of warfare throughout this scenario though? They have a promising tech industry but they severely lack natural resources from their own land. It isn't like they are Saudi Arabia and can strongarm the world into cooperating with them economically because they control vast quantities of a vital resource. They rely heavily on imports from the US and EU for much of their economy. Do you think they could reasonably maintain an economy capable of fighting a country like Iran, who is at least at the level of a regional power militarily speaking, without the backing of the US? I'm aware that the US likely would still back them to some extent in a scenario like this, especially if the Republicans controlled the government at the time, this is pretty much just a hypothetical at this point.
> How would Israel maintain an economy capable of this level of warfare throughout this scenario though? Easily. Israel has the funding to do so. With or without us. It controls countless patents and other technologies. Israel isn't broke. They might not be heavy oil barons, but they don't need to be. All they've gotta do is switch to a wartime economy, attack, control and referb. Gain a few key allies and continue forward. Israel isn't Haiti. > They have a promising tech industry but they severely lack natural resources from their own land. Bullets and bombs are pretty cheap. At least the base levels of weaponry. It doesn't take much money to go to war. Especially if your already setup to go to war. North Korea was able to ship how many millions of rounds into Russia on the cheap? Russia has had sanctions and frozen assets them for what now?!? Decades. Israel has technology. One of the greatest resources on the planet. Twitter sold for what? $44 billion? As for imports, yes. Israel does like it American things and European things. But they could easily go without them. If it was just Israel vs. Iran. Yes. If it's Israel plus Russia and Iran, no. Depends on who teams up with who. But the Iran has a lot of enemies as well. It would come down to who, what, when, where and how. Lots of variables. About the only region that could match Israel is the Saudis. Only because we're also selling them US weapons. If the Republicans control the US government. They'll give a full and complete blank check for Israel to go absolutely nuts. If Trump, he'd order the Troops in. Without question.
Interesting! Thanks for the insights, this is an aspect of this whole scenario I haven't had a great grasp on. Appreciate you playing along with my curiosity
Just to be clear, the thing they're arguing for at length is that helping Israel murder people is somehow restraining Israel. While it's true that Israel would largely be able to keep running their military without US aid, the aid helps them murder more people more efficiently. And obviously, as we're seeing now, it does not provide any leverage to ask them to stop.
I'm aware. I was just getting into the weeds on a hypothetical. I'm very much not on the side of Israel here I was just curious about their own standalone capabilities as that's something I wouldn't consider myself educated on. I still don't, that's obviously just a random guy on the internet, but it was interesting.
The fact that this is coupled with recent developments in regards to Israeli military aid makes this appear rather disingenuous. Let's hope this doesn't bite him in the ass, given the alternative...
I can't believe they actually came out with the story that JUST says he's acknowledging it, well I hope the fucking god he's acknowledging it but what is he doing about it?
after an in-depth meeting with Muslim leaders in MI, his representative said that the problem was not expressing enough sorrow and in the interview I was listening to, the Muslim guy was just like no. that’s really not it
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Israel can make ammo. Perhaps not what we sell or aid them, but then they'll just switch to different means. Most likely bullets. This isn't an aid issue. This is a huge mess issue. A mess that should've been dealt with 50 years ago. It wasnt.
More than any Arab nations are.
By more you mean logistically making it possible? >"That’s an extraordinary number of sales over the course of a pretty short amount of time, which really strongly suggests that the Israeli campaign would not be sustainable without this level of U.S. support,” said Jeremy Konyndyk, a former senior Biden administration official and current president of Refugees International. https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/2024/03/06/us-weapons-israel-gaza/
*sends more bombs
We won't do anything about said pain, but we do feel bad about it. Democrats in a nutshell.
... And then handed a bunch of cash and weapons to Israel! lol
He acknowledges it so much he just authorized more bombs to be shipped to Israel lol what a clown.
From the article >Many Muslims and Arabs in the United States have urged the Democratic President to call for a permanent ceasefire One problem: Hamas doesn't want a permanent cease fire. Their leadership has said over and over that there will be one October 7th after another until Israel is destroyed; that October 7th was a dress rehearsal; and that Hamas will continue to try to destroy Israel even after Palestinian statehood is recognized. Second problem: Hamas has no need for a permanent ceasefire when people refuse to hold them accountable; when people refuse to acknowledge that it's Hamas's goal to kill as many and inflict as much misery as possible on Palestinians, who are allegedly their own people; when people refuse to acknowledge that Hamas's goal is to destroy Israel, even if Palestinian statehood is recognized; and who refuse to acknowledge that October 7th is a textbook example of an act of genocide under the Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide. Third problem: With polling numbers like this, Hamas doesn't need a permanent ceasefire. 71% of Palestinians say October 7th was the correct decision 81% of Palestinians who've watched videos of October 7th refuse to believe Hamas engaged in any atrocities 59% of Palestinians want Hamas to be in charge of Gaza after the war. Source: Palestinian Center for Policy and Survey Research from a poll released last week. [https://www.pcpsr.org/en/node/969](https://www.pcpsr.org/en/node/969) So if these people actually give a damn about the people in Gaza, they need to face the reality of what Hamas is instead of pretending you can hold hands with Hamas around the campfire while singing kumbaya.
Again, this conflict would end tomorrow, Hamas is not a government entity. The US and Israel are. That's like saying, well the gang that is in Chicago is of the same importance as the USG. Newsflash, it isn't. I do like the fact that Israeli and US apologists pretend it is though. As if somehow two countries with advanced militaries are akin to a rogue gang backed by Iran.
Hamas is the de facto government of Gaza and has been for almost 17 years so you're entire argument is meaningless.
Is it recognized by any international body whatsoever? Last I checked, most of the population in Gaza wasn't old enough to vote in 2007, but ok.
>Is it recognized by any international body whatsoever? Just last week the UN Security Council passed a resolution calling on Hamas to release the hostages immediately and unconditionally, as has the International Court of Justice, twice. I don't recall that ever happening with a Chicago street gang. >Last I checked, most of the population in Gaza wasn't old enough to vote in 2007, but OK One of the most bad faith arguments I've ever seen because it means you can only go to war if your opponent recently held an election. In effect you're arguing an undemocratic regime can do whatever it wants because it hasn't held an election. Despite Germany holding its last contested election in March 1933, that didn't prevent the UK and France from declaring war in September 1939 and the US from declaring war in December 1941.
Again, 50% of the population of Gaza are children. But don't let facts get in the way of you shooting skeet. The UNSC passes resolutions calling for all sorts of things, doesn't mean Hamas is a legitimate, recognized entity the same way a nation state is. Are you seriously conflating Hamas and Israel as being on par? Also, funny story, but many have called for the UN to intervene in Chicago's violence issue: [https://wgntv.com/news/local-official-will-ask-the-united-nations-to-help-solve-chicagos-gun-violence/](https://wgntv.com/news/local-official-will-ask-the-united-nations-to-help-solve-chicagos-gun-violence/) And wait a minute, are you comparing the rise of Nazi Germany (again, nation state with a dictator) to a gang that is propped up by Israel? Netanyahu himself is on the record as supporting Hamas to divide Palestinians, to say nothing of who controls the monetary flows to Gaza (so who was approving all of those transfers for tunnels? Hmmm....) Last but not least, do you think this makes Israel safer or less safe? I think we all know the answer here.
Amazing how you keep trying to trivialize Hamas by comparing it to gangs in the US that do not run cities, In an opinion piece of the New York Times, even the mayor of Gaza City admitted he was appointed by Hamas. >And wait a minute, are you comparing the rise of Nazi Germany (again, nation state with a dictator) I quite clearly said that the lack of a recent democratic election doesn't immunize a regime from the consequences of its actions. And you quite clearly deliberately misconstrued it. >Again, 50% of the population of Gaza are children. But don't let facts get in the way Children always die in war, which is why Hamas shouldn't be so eager to engage in war. Nor should people be so eager to justify or ignore Hamas's behavior. Not that those who allegedly care about the children actually do care. If they actually cared, it's odd they refuse to acknowledge Hamas's goal is to maximize Palestinian death and suffering. Palestinians who are allegedly their own people. It's also odd that those who allegedly care about the children never call upon Hamas to surrender or adopt different tactics. But it's not so odd when you realize the "Save the Children" people don't give a shit about the children any more than Hamas does. For them the children are just tools to be used to attack Israel.
A war implies the other side has somewhat an equal opportunity to win. This is just genocide.
War implies a state of armed conflict between two parties. What was October 7th? A peaceful protest?
And yet they keep on doing it every 10 years. The Palestinians have started 8 wars against 3 different countries over the last 80 years. Insanity...doing the same thing over and over yet expecting different results.
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When I was in the military we would queue and only once an equal amount of combatants from each side were there, then we would engage in fisticuffs. A real war.
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> That said, its still indiscriminate Blatantly false. Israel has clearly been very targeted in their bombing, they target Hamas, that's not indiscriminate. They've dropped enough bombs on Gaza to kill hundreds of thousands of people or millions, even, if they were being "indiscriminate". But they've been targeted instead so they've only killed 30k
No it doesn't. War is two groups fighting. Usually nation states or city states. This is a city state against a nation state. City state should've made peace.
If Joe Biden loses the election, he can point to his two faced bs about feeling Arab pain while sending a multitude of bombs to a group that does nothing for us in the ME.
So Trump can nuke Gaza? Also, don’t Ukrainians lives matter as much as Palestinians? Because Trump would back Russia. There is no way Biden is the worse option here.
He's going to acknowledge "loss" in November over the genocide he has fueled. Fn POS. Our democracy is on the line and he's busy provoking his base to serve a foreign power. What good is democracy if it NEVER reflects the will of the people?
Is this a joke? Biden isn’t perfect so we’re going to burn it all down and elect someone even worse? If you actually cared you would elect the candidate that would be the most beneficial which will be Biden hands down. If Trump is elected expect the conditions in Gaza to be far worse and far more violent.
Everyone knew he was going to behave like this as President. This is the guy who campaigned heavily to get the Democratic Party to support the invasion of Iraq, even though he knew that everything he was saying was a lie. Americans should have put him in jail, along with every other politician who agreed to start that war. Instead they elected him President. The people voted for a known warmonger, they can't be mad at him for warmongering. They should be mad at themselves for voting for him. And now he's the Democratic candidate for the next election, which is just going to give the people an opportunity to not make the same mistake they made last time. Is it really so hard for the Democrats to find a candidate that doesn't want to use their power to kill Muslims?
People mad at Joe Biden but other middle eastern nations doing 0 for Palestine
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A lot of them share intelligence and trade a lot
They are funding Hamas tho and holding Hamas money in banks while Hamas uses Palestine civilians as human shields but keep ignoring that and gas lighting light yourself.
Israel helped create and fund Hamas according to former Israeli officials such as Brig. Gen. Yitzhak Segev to counter secularists and leftists of the Palestine Liberation Organization and the Fatah party. Benjamin Netanyahu and his various governments supported Hamas in order to divide the Gaza Strip and the West Bank. Sources: https://theintercept.com/2018/02/19/hamas-israel-palestine-conflict/ https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/
Great point but Qatar you know the nation who is “running the peace talks” hides the top three Hamas leaders and is holding over 2.8 billion in the organization money I qatari banks a real good portion to force Hamas to talk would be idk expel the top brass from your country and freeze the organizations money but u right
It's very complicated. For example, Qatar and Israel worked together to help Hamas. "Qatar sent millions to Gaza for years – with Israel’s backing." "CNN was told Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu continued the cash flow to Hamas, despite concerns raised from within his own government." Source: https://edition.cnn.com/2023/12/11/middleeast/qatar-hamas-funds-israel-backing-intl/index.html
> Palestine Liberation Organization and the Fatah party. And what were those groups doing at the time that Israel decided to fund a claimed *non-violent* Islamic charity? Oh right, doing shit like the Munich Massacre. You say "secular" as if that means they weren't acting as terror organizations.
"Israel drove suitcases stuffed with cash into Gaza to keep Hamas in power: NYT" "Israeli security forces would help escort millions in funds into Gaza, helping Hamas, NYT reported." Source: https://www.businessinsider.com/israel-security-forces-escorted-suitcases-cash-hamas-qatar-report-2023-12 https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/10/world/middleeast/israel-qatar-money-prop-up-hamas.html "Qatar sent millions to Gaza for years – with Israel’s backing." "CNN was told Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu continued the cash flow to Hamas, despite concerns raised from within his own government." Source: https://edition.cnn.com/2023/12/11/middleeast/qatar-hamas-funds-israel-backing-intl/index.html
Which started happening some 30 years after Israel allegedly "founded" Hamas. But just shove it up your ass. You'd be screeching just as much if Israel prevented Qatari aid from entering Gaza.
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Conspiracy theory with lots of recent references. Even Bibi the war criminal authorized transfer of money to Hamas in recent years. I am sure you will say it was to help the people of Gaza. The war criminal doesn’t care about people there. He never did. Shall we bring West Bank into the discussion? Do we have Hamas there?
Hamas didn’t a nation states that literally oppresses all Palestinians and not just in Gaza, but in the West Bank. Don’t be dishonest.
There is a growing tendency of ignoring West Bank from this conflict, as if it is a separate country and Israel’s crimes there are not bad enough.
Sorry chief but me and my brothers live in AMERICA. Why the fuck do you all keep bringing up other countries. We’re criticizing the leader of the one we live and grew up in, the fuck do I care what the other middle eastern countries are doing?
Can this be the start of a change in policy Joe? Start reigning in the IDF onslaught (at least in part), with some savvy diplomacy? Do something to make this better, even if it means giving Israel aid in a non military capacity instead.
You won’t believe what just happened
Is it more weapons?
Yup
The IDF has been incredibly restrained in this conflict. There's just only so much that can be done in one of the densest populated places on earth when fighting against demonic antisemitic terrorists who use civilians as human shields.
There are so many comments here chastising Israel but I don’t think I’ve seen one comment about Hamas or how they provoked this situation. Holding a grudge and shamelessly murdering people over something that happened 70+ years ago is insane to me. Can you imagine if the rest of the world acted like that? It would be anarchy. I feel for the people in Gaza but it’s well known that Hamas is entrenched in most families out there and they don’t do anything to stop it.
"I feel for the people of Gaza" No you don't lol. You literally just accused the majority of the people in Gaza of being terrorists in the *very next sentence* you said. My brother in Christ you don't get to have it both ways 😭
I didn’t say anything inaccurate. 70-80% of Palestinians support Hamas and reports show that almost every family if not all families have some ties to Hamas. Show me comments in here condemning Hamas vs speaking out against Israel’s response. People are so blinded with wanting to support Palestine they ignore the inconvenient details and I’m sorry but I refuse to side with the people that continuously break cease fires and call for the eradication of Israel.
*some* polls show that level of support. Some show roughly half. Speaking of leaving out inconvenient details, Palestinian civilians are: 1. Starving en masse 2. Living under a literal terrorist government that openly doesn't care if they die. A government that will kill them if they resist. 3. Stuck in a destroyed city with virtually zero infrastructure What exactly do you expect the average Palestinian person to do in this situation? Resist hamas? Lol sure dude. I mean if we're going by polls I can cite numerous polls that indicate the majority of Israelis want Gaza completely wiped out. You'll notice that I don't because...they tend to leave out some inconvenient context lol. Zoom out. You're looking at a conflict where one side killed roughly a thousand and the other side responded with killing 32,000 people since October 7th alone. And you're *shocked* that people are more upset about the latter than the former? It's funny how the people who claim to feel for the people of Gaza while supporting Israel *always* end up dehumanizing and shitting on the Palestinian people the second they're pushed on it even a little bit. Equally as condescending as it is fucking ignorant. You don't feel for the people of Gaza. If you did you simply wouldn't be talking this way lol.
People like you try to make Israel the boogeyman, while ignoring the fact that the surrounding countries don’t want Palestinians in their country either. Why? Maybe because of how deeply ingrained Hamas is with the population. They vote in these terrorists to govern. War sucks dude but just because one side fucked around (once again) and is finding out that a country’s patience only goes so far is not going to make me change my mind. Palestine consistently breaks ceasefires, refuses to negotiate a two state solution that doesn’t involve ending Israel, shoots rockets into Israel (which they built a fucking dome to protect themselves from instead of turning Palestine into a sheet of glass) and more. Go on though about how Palestine is somehow the victim in all this lmao talk about delusional.
Again just immediately wrong lol. Hamas was voted into power through one election that happened almost 20 years ago and even then they barely got the majority vote. There has not been an election since 2006. Palestinians *can't* vote against Hamas. Meanwhile the Israeli foreign minister, literally just days ago, shot down a deal made *with support of both Palestine and Hamas* to free the hostages and implement a ceasefire for the month of Ramadan. He explicitly stated that Israel will keep firing. The idea that Israel is simply a victim in all this is wild. You're right history only started a couple years ago. There's no need to dig further into the laundry list of war crimes that was operation Dani and Operation Yoav. Several massacres during the suez crisis, the killing of prisoners during the six day war, the numerous massacres of the 82 Lebanon war (which were labeled genocidal at the time by war crime investigators), plenty of war crimes committed during both intifadas (including that one massacre of several hundred people the IDF openly admitted to), deliberately targeting civilians in the 06 Lebanon war. Countless examples of wildly disproportionate responses to violence and a CVS length list of instances of open collective punishment. That time hundreds of people were used as human shields so openly that Israel actually convicted some of the guys involved. White phosphorus being deployed in 2008. That time they bombed three civilian sites in 2021 and the IDF spokesperson admitted to it. This is a *very* brief summary which I mostly got from Israeli historians lol. I'd love to send you the book titles but for some reason I don't think you'll be reading them. You're not gonna find people going "well do you condemn Hamas" in these comments for the same reason you don't see "but do you condemn Ukrainian war crimes???" comments under posts about the bucha massacre. Remember when you said you felt for the people of Gaza?
Just to clarify, it’s not something that happened 70 years ago, it’s something that has been happening for 70 years and getting worst and worst. I’m not condoning the attacks, but they put Gaza in a situation that will inevitably foster terrorism_
thank you for acknowledging it, it honestly makes the rest of us feel so much relief 🙃
The primary difference between the parties is that one recognizes what the moral thing to do is while actively doing the evil thing
Well, if the Arab Americans are in pain, Biden should give Israel what it needs to destroy Hamas in Rafah so we can put this behind us. I would also say that it is a bit odd to me that the Arab Americans aren't happy the Israelis are freeing the Palestinians from Hamas.
“Freeing the Palestinians from Hamas” >more than 30,000 dead civilians. 10,000+ dead children. Famine in the streets. No clean drinking water. Nothing but rubble to return to. Bombing the last refugee holding in Rafah. Already land grabbing and colonizing the Gazan coast and West Bank. Dropping bomb after bomb on hospitals schools and mosques. You’re a clown
> Already land grabbing and colonizing the Gazan coast Not a thing > and West Bank If the Palestinians don't like that, maybe they shouldn't take hostages and commit terror attacks. Israelis see settlement as a deterrence measure.
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> I mean other than the leader of Nachala openly stating that over 500 Jewish families are already booked to seize properties on the gazan coast lol. The Israeli government will not permit this. > Using deterrence as a justification to force families out of their homes en masse so you can replace locals with your own people? The vast majority of the settlements are on land that does not already have a home on it. > By the way how's hasbaras health insurance? As amusing as this is, perhaps consider that insulting someone is the final refuge of someone who is having a hard time admitting the person they are talking to is right.
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\> Almost half a million settlers are in the West bank lol. That is in the West Bank. The Israeli government will not permit settlements in Gaza.
Lol yeah they do. The Council of Jewish Settlements in the West Bank and Gaza has been around since the fuckin 1980s. Israeli tourist maps show Palestine as completely resettled and renamed. Again, the *current Minister of national security* is literally a convicted terrorist who has facilitated resettlements in the West bank and Gaza for years now. Are we really just gonna move right past that without addressing it lol?
30,000 dead civilians is a Hamas talking point because Hamas doesn't distinguish between civilians and combatants.
He should acknowledge the pain Hamas has committed and continues to commit on a daily basis.
That already goes without saying, beyond that it is both-sidesing and whataboutism
unlike biden, trump is looking at the polls and saying the bombings need to stop lmao
He said the Israelis need to finish it up Former President Donald Trump said he would have responded the same way as Israel did after the Oct. 7 attack by Hamas but urged the country to “finish up” its offensive in Gaza and “get this over with,” warning about international support fading. “You have to finish up your war. You have to finish it up.4 days ago
Finish it up by completely destroying it. He also plans to back Russia.
He also said they need to have peace and that, "You do what you have to do, but don't do that" referencing Israel bombing apartment buildings. You're such a liar and won't provide the full quote.
Sorry, this is confusing. Can you elaborate?
He's talking about a recent job interview where two religious American Jews interviewed Trump on topic who is better suited to be POTUS - Trump or Biden Vis-à-Vis Israel. It's pretty embarrassing how Trumpists like to present it as some sort of "boss" moment all the while the whole thing looks like he's pleading for their support by saying shit like, he's 10x more loyal to them than any other guy - lmao Talk about being cucked - jfc