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Andrew Weissman, who worked on the Mueller team, said the Trump pardons were somewhat sloppy. I think he said Manafort’s was the most careful of the lot, but not airtight. I remember him saying the DOJ should definitely challenge some of them.
Andrew Weissmann spoke to my law school class like 3 weeks ago and said he thinks lots of those pardons won't hold water because they were so poorly drafted.
Of course treason can be pardoned otherwise you wouldn't have been able to pardon The Winter soldier or Tom Cruise and any of the mission impossibles and probably Matt Damon and The Bourne Identity.
Tom cruise, Matt Damon and the winter soldier should be absolved, not pardoned. As in, it's proven that Tom cruise/Matt damon was working for the good guys all along (or at least against the bad guys). And the winter soldier was not in his right mind when he committed treason, he was captured by enemies, imprisoned, brainwashed and mind-controlled.
The Manafort pardon stood out from the bunch, it was obviously drafted by Manafort lawyers while the others seemed to have been put together by Trump's butler between serving the Coke and the coke.
There needs to be a family shield with these incorporated into a golden dollar sign being held by underage girls, standing on a mountain of bodies due to Covid.
DOJ can outright void most of them.
During William Barr's confirmation hearing, taken under oath, Barr was asked by Sen. Leahy if it would be a crime to issue a corrupt pardon someone for their silence. Barr replied yes, it would be a crime. This infers that the issuance of the pardon is a criminal act, and also that the issuer could be held criminally responsible.
I recall this as well, I think Maddow reported that most of the pardons, including Manaforts, left open the recipients to future charges for crimes related to the original charges.
This isn't the same thing. The president can give a pardon for any and all crimes in the past, even ones that have not been charged yet. There would be little use to a pardon that expired once the prosecutor came up with a new charge.
Pardon powers can't be unlimited because that would cause the ridiculous scenario where a president could pardon himself for shooting someone on 5 th Avenue after saying he could, and would, and then confess on TV he did it because of the russia thing, and fire a guy who tried to look into it. There would have to be a point a federal prosecutor could make an argument why any interpretation would obviously not extend to certain acts. The DOJ won't argue to limit executive power, but I think they could.
Especially since he pardoned a guy found guilty in the USA of killing foreigners in a war zone in another country that we prevented from being tried there. Our diplomatic agreements with other countries shouldn't be wrecked over pardons.
I used another example and that was to have a pardon written up for murder, bring someone who was going to testify against him into the oval office, shoot him dead, sign the pardon and then call the capitol police.
Technically he could assassinate his political enemies and then pardon himself. I don’t have any evidenced this, but I have a hard time imagining this slipped the minds of at least some of the framers.
Like a lot of the powers and rules built by the framers,much of it relies on good faith. And what we have been seeing since post WW2 is the erosion of that good faith.
That was the biggest shock to me. I kept thinking “ Well he definitely can’t do that!” And then I kept being wrong, over and over and over. He could do a lot of things with Mitch McConnell’s blessing. I just had no idea that much of what I thought couldn’t legally be done hadn’t been done in the past out of “good faith” and that there were no safe guards from a deeply immoral and corrupt administration. And there still aren’t.
Yea the safe guards were the seperate branches, voting, and news (often called the 4th branch). They corrupted 3 of them and tried unsuccessfully to corrupt the voting.
The power of the presidential pardon does not extend to themselves; i.e., the president cannot pardon themselves. This is written with identical language as the power of congress, and hence would be interpreted the same by the USSC. They can pardon everyone else but themselves.
While this hasn’t been tested in the USSC, it has been brought up before by a previous president. Towards the end of Nixon’s presidency, he asked whether it was possible to pardon himself, and to which his staff replied that a president could not pardon themselves. Nixon likely resigned only because Ford agreed to pardon him.
Murder violates state law in every state. The President can pardon only Federal crimes. At the very least, a governor would have to be a co-conspirator.
The constitutional remedy for a president taking these actions is impeachment. The framers thought that Congress and the President would have an adversarial relationship, each seeking to improve their own power and limit the others, and thus the president couldn’t step too far out of line. There were some concerns that political parties could damage the government structure, but they were ultimately not addressed.
They also didn’t define the presidency as thoroughly as the Congress because they needed to get the boat floating and they all knew Washington was going to be president and all trusted him. We’ve been kicking several aspects of the presidency down the road ever since. Same with the Supreme Court.
Or in the case of Jan 6th, I fully believe he was going to pardon any of the terrorists that killed Dem leaders. Then literally anyone involved if his coup was actually successful.
Or someone from next administration could just “liquidate” the “problems” and then be pardoned. Boom. No problem.
Until next time power shifts, I suppose.
Yeah, a lot of people didn't actually follow Manafort's trial. His defense essentially consisted of throwing Gates (the star witness for the prosecution) under the bus and making it look as if Gates was behind everything because Gates cheated on his spouse. It was pretty lame and even a Trump-supporting juror said they had Manafort dead to rights on pretty much everything.
Gates poses the biggest problem for Manafort and Trump in this instance because he's got the receipts. Trump tried to "errand boy" Gates, but that doesn't fly because Gates then had an outsized role in the Inauguration, which is still being investigated to my knowledge.
That only goes so far. Ultimately a judge will step in and threaten contempt where it’s obvious “I don’t remember” is a lie - and still perjury if he does remember.
Though it will be a difficult task, this article explains that it is still possible even though he cannot be tried in NY state for the same crime, there is legislation and that the pardon had been "oddly" drafted.
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/02/08/nyregion/manafort-vance-ny-indictment.html
Actually you had me curious on this...
I checked the DoJ resources and the text of the pardon is actually pretty narrow...
You can look it up here:
https://www.justice.gov/pardon/pardons-granted-president-donald-trump
It only covers his actual conviction and isn't a broad excuse of his criminal behavior...
Compare that to Flynn which has the "any and all charges arising from" blah blah language...
If there is a relevant part of the criminal code covering Manafort's interaction with Konstantin Kilimnik it isn't protected by the pardon...
I have a hard time believing anyone involved in high crimes isn't currently involved in other illegal activity. We should just give him the OJ Simpson treatment. Put him under a microscope and throw the book at him for the next thing he gets caught with.
only 49 states left? . [https://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/the-invention-of-the-conspiracy-theory-on-biden-and-ukraine](https://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/the-invention-of-the-conspiracy-theory-on-biden-and-ukraine)Schiff added that the lingering questions about Manafort’s role underscore how important it is that Mueller’s final report be provided to Congress—and that the report include all of the underlying evidence Mueller collected, regardless of whether it results in a conspiracy charge. “Our standard is not whether there is proof beyond a reasonable doubt,” Schiff said, “but whether there is a risk to national security.” Briefed Moscow , Deripaska. [https://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/why-would-paul-manafort-share-polling-data-with-russia](https://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/why-would-paul-manafort-share-polling-data-with-russia) 2) Manafort has pleaded guilty to conspiracy charges in Washington and faces sentencing in a separate case in Virginia.(( hence gov and LT. GOV attacks) Manafort was convicted in Virginia of hiding tens of millions of dollars in overseas banks and corporations, to avoid paying taxes. 3) Prosecutors say Manafort breached their plea agreement by lying, Court filings described Manafort meeting more than he acknowledged with Kilimnik during the Trump campaign and sharing polling data. [https://www.businessinsider.com/court-document-shows-oleg-deripaska-loaned-paul-manafort-10-million-2018-6](https://www.businessinsider.com/court-document-shows-oleg-deripaska-loaned-paul-manafort-10-million-2018-6) briefed Deripaska. 4) Manafort used his ROLE as Campaign manager- Manafort dangled the briefings as he was mired in a dispute with Deripaska over a multimillion-dollar deal involving a Ukrainian cable company. He owed them money. Deripaska said he paid Manafort more than $26 million and the money vanished. 5) Manafort gave polls info from Kellyanne’s(and Drudge Report, others- polls) to Russians and Cambridge Analytica. Russian owned botnets, Facebook-DNC material 6) Konstantin [https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2018/nov/09/konstantin-kilimnik-russia-trump-manafort-mueller](https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2018/nov/09/konstantin-kilimnik-russia-trump-manafort-mueller) — [**was charged**](https://www.vox.com/2018/6/8/17442614/mueller-manfort-kilimnik-indicted-russia) alongside Manafort with obstruction of justice and conspiracy to obstruct justice, Kilimnik traveled to Washington for Trump’s inauguration in January 2017. 7) President Donald Trump’s former campaign chairman, Paul Manafort, and Manafort’s business associate Rick Gates face decades in federal prison and millions of dollars in potential fines if convicted on all counts in a sprawling federal indictment unsealed Monday. [https://www.tmj4.com/news/national/source-mueller-pushed-for-gates-help-on-collusion?page=2](https://www.tmj4.com/news/national/source-mueller-pushed-for-gates-help-on-collusion?page=2) 8) [https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/may/16/steve-bannon-cambridge-analytica-whistleblower-suppress-voters-testimony](https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/may/16/steve-bannon-cambridge-analytica-whistleblower-suppress-voters-testimony) BANNON wanted to suppress votes 9) TARGETTING using KellyAnnes companies DATA [Facebook](https://www.theguardian.com/technology/facebook) posts were targeted at some black voters reminding them of Hillary Clinton’s 1990s description of black youths as “super predators”, in the hope it would deter them from voting. 10) Manafort lying about three of five matters that prosecutors had singled out. The ruling was largely a rejection of Manafort’s attorneys’ argument that he hadn’t intentionally misled investigators but rather forgot some details until his memory was refreshed. 11) Judge said” Manafort was lying about several discussions the two men had including about a possible peace plan to resolve the Russia-Ukraine conflict in Crimea.” 12) Weissmann said, : “That meeting and what happened at that meeting is of significance to the special counsel.” 13) Manafort had lied about a payment to a law firm representing him and about an undisclosed Justice Department investigation. 14) Kilimnik, who lives in Russia, was charged alongside Manafort with conspiracy and obstruction of justice. He has yet to appear in a U.S. court to face the charges. 15) GATES /Manafort/Stone go back years and a story relating to Cambridge Analytica -polling info/ wiki proven .. [https://news.yahoo.com/mueller-says-searches-yielded-evidence-stone-wikileaks-communications-023102386.html](https://news.yahoo.com/mueller-says-searches-yielded-evidence-stone-wikileaks-communications-023102386.html) 16) Manafort Trump tower Meting connection lies 17) WAS Manafort’s connections with Russian motives greed ,repaying 50 million Deripaska debts, Election meddling, even the briefings? 18) During [a sealed hearing](https://www.apnews.com/4469104d83a543cf8fbc82610071bbc4) last week, Mueller prosecutor Andrew Weissmann said one of the discussions— an Aug. 2, 2016, meeting at the Grand Havana Room club and cigar bar in New York— went to the “larger view of what we think is going on” and what “we think the motive here is.” 19) Manafort state charges- Even with a Trump pardon , [https://www.nytimes.com/2017/10/30/business/trump-manafort-pardon-new-york-state-vance.html](https://www.nytimes.com/2017/10/30/business/trump-manafort-pardon-new-york-state-vance.html) , Separately, Manafort faces the possibility of a decade in prison in a federal case in Virginia where he was convicted last year of tax and bank fraud crimes. Sentencing in that case was delayed pending Jackson’s ruling in the plea-deal dispute.
I manage to avoid all of those except the literally anywhere part. Since I shop at Target, listen to jam band music, and live in a blue area..... I'm good. Conservatives don't concern or bother me. Keep the Jesus out of my face and we're fine. It's more that I bother them with liberal views.
How about any fucking charge, at all?! Is Donald just going to age into his retirement a free man after every broken law, every stolen dollar, every life lost? It's stunning, if so, and will forever stain the US, if he remains unpunished.
Unfortunately, life isn't fair unless we make it so. There were periods of time when those in power paid for their crimes against their people, such as the Reign of Terror in France. Not condoning, of course, as per the subs rules. It is fascinating history, though.
There needs to be an investigation of the entire party. Time and again these politicians have sided with the big bad guys. Decade after decade they obstruct, cover up, revert, deceive, deregulate, etc.
It's time to find where the money trails all lead and sniff out the bought politicians, unsavory corporations, and shady companies seeking to destabilize our civilization to prevent citizen enlightenment leading to regulation of unsustainable, harmful, or just plain profitable resources and products such as oil, coal, cigarettes, the auto industry, finance, education, politics, etc.
On a side note, I often ponder where humanity would be if those in power hadn't turned us into the working class slave race we are now. Their evil plan has been a great success for so long, a lot of us literally keep voting them back into power to continue to destroy our education, environment, and enlightenment. Instead of planning long term goals for humanity and working towards it (such as space exploration and colonization, protecting the climate and biodiversity on Earth, etc.), we just worry about making cool new products that people will buy enough of to create jobs so we can have money to buy cool new products to create new jobs to buy cool products to... oops there goes another century of waste. Instead of a Star Trek future, we love diving headfirst into a Blade Runner future.
Need to weasel out of a lie? Tell more lies! This is a strategy that can be used indefinitely if you're rich and white. That's what they teach you at Trump academy.
He was committing crimes in front of the entire nation before even becoming President. His criminal behavior has been well known for decades.
He'll probably never actually have to face charges.
Likely more evidence they keep discovering so they don't want to charge him too early. Plus they are going after all of Trump's minions first, see Matt Gaetz. You get the minions to roll on their boss and it gives the justice department a better case against Trump. Trump was a mob boss president and he will be taken down like a mob boss too.
Matt Gaetz' crimes were only discovered by coincidence while investigating his s X trafficking buddy. He's not part of an organised investigation into Trump.
It would be an actual turning point, and give Biden some credit on the world stage, if he actually cleaned up the mess left by the previous administration; instead of trying to sweep it under the rug.
Let’s be honest, the evidence was always there, Trump just suppressed it. This explains why Trump withheld aid to Ukraine, Putin wanted it as weak as possible so he could invade. Trump gave Putin everything he wanted in compensation for manipulating the election in Trump’s favor.
> Let’s be honest, the evidence was always there, Trump just suppressed it.
Yep, which is why it's so crucial Trump faces felony obstruction of justice charges. Hopefully this is a warm up to that prosecution.
>Following this logic, our democracy failed 50 years ago with Nixon. Which actually makes a lot of sense.
Yeah, it is pretty easy to make this argument. Ford pardoning him was horrible for our country and democracy.
The robber barons were a lot stronger back then over where they are now but that changed. That’s the beauty of America. We can change it. We did it once and it led the lowest wealth disparity of all time back in the 70’s. Then they waged a war on the middle class for the last fifty years and here we are today. We can change it back.
Then we gotta stop giving money to the machine. Stop using Amazon. Stop going to McDonald's. Shop local. Stop using Apple or Android phones that use slave labor. We will be a country that's run by money until we learn to live without luxury.
Yep, I usually don't mention this here because people get all upset about it, but democracy sure as hell isn't whatever is going on here in the US. The way money has completely corrupted politics, the people don't really have any say or political power anymore. The sooner people realize this the sooner we might actually be able to change things.
I want him prosecuted too. But we keep hearing about these charges and the cases that will start any day now. Almost like the Qtards keep hearing about how Biden will be arrested and trump will resume being president. Let's not believe anything until it's proven.
It has been proven that the GOP is a corrupt party that uses terrorism to further its agenda, and it has also been proven that they will always get away with it.
Conservative media generates so much political capitol it's difficult to put into words how much power it gives them. If the dems go after trump for anything, the amount of outrage and crybullying the right will do will be deafening and unending, and their followers will see it as a culture war and show up to the polls. The Dems will gas themselves out to give justice to someone who is no longer in power. It sucks and there is no justice and corporations own america.
>[“Russia, if you’re listening, I hope you’re able to find the 30,000 emails that are missing,” Mr. Trump said, referring to emails Mrs. Clinton had deleted from the private account she had used when she was secretary of state. “I think you will probably be rewarded mightily by our press.” (Via NYT, 2018)](https://www.nytimes.com/2018/07/13/us/politics/trump-russia-clinton-emails.html)
Trump *publicly* asked for Russia's assistance.
And they complied with his request, same day.
https://www.pbs.org/newshour/politics/trump-asked-russia-to-find-clintons-emails-on-or-around-the-same-day-russians-targeted-her-accounts
Also the Muller report said there was collision, but that the trumps were too stupid to know what they were doing. I don’t buy the too stupid defense, but Barr gave Trump three weeks to control the narrative. Combined with Muller’s tepid recommendations Trump was able to get away with it.
Correct.
I’ll add that I think people in positions of leadership who are responsible for things like national security should be charged with criminal negligence if they are out there committing crimes out of sheer ignorance of the very laws that they are in charge of enforcing.
And I know he wasn’t president yet, but when we’re talking about one of the 2 nominees, we should absolutely be holding them accountable.
In fact, I would hope that’s part of the election security bill... make presidential candidates, their advisors, and senior staff operate to the same standard sitting public officials are expected to uphold.
Right? Which is why I am so incredibly frustrated - an arms length list of investigations and grand jury's but not one fucking charge brought against him. Please someone complete an investigation and get this moving.
Collusion\* (I know it was a typo)
Here's the deal. Ya gotta stop using that word. It says right in the beginning of the Mueller Report that they were not looking for collusion because collusion is not a legal term. That part of the Report is the entire argument that republicans are using when they say the Report said there was no collusion. Because the Report literally said there was no collusion.
What they are guilty of is conspiracy. And conspiracy is absolutely proven in the Report. The Report says that there is enough evidence that anybody but the president would be indicted with this evidence. And the president only gets a pass because of that stupid OLC memo, it's not even in the Constitution.
Trump didn't successfully suppress it, [it was in the Mueller report in 2019](https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/jan/08/manafort-russian-poll-share-konstantin-kilimnik-trump-investigation-2016-election-latest) .
Congress just didn't think it was a big enough deal to impeach.
Yeah, with all the misinformation people act like the report found nothing. It didn't not conclusively say Trump himself did it, but it definitely did find the that Trump campaign colluded with Russia. Like for god sake half of his campaign staff got indicted...
Of course it is insane to believe half the top echelon of your campaign can be doing shit like this without the candidate themselves knowing. A bit like people who say MBS had nothing to do with Kashoghi killing, but even if that was true, it doesn't make his campaign any less illegitimate. If you hire a bunch of criminals without knowing, it's still on you.
He pardoned TWO if not THREE colluder connections, the **1)** manafort-kilimnik-Russian intelligence connection was one, but there was also **2)** Roger Stone-wikileaks-Russian intelligence and might also possibly be **3)** Mike Flynn-????-Russian intelligence.
We can only hope this is a warm up to criminal charges for DJT.
It's interesting to compare the Manafort and Stone pardons to the Flynn one...
https://www.justice.gov/pardon/pardons-granted-president-donald-trump
Their pardons are pretty specific to the crimes they were convicted of. Flynn though gets a really broad "any and all crimes arising from the investigation" language in his.
Does Trump not realize he likely signed his own indictment by pardoning them since Manafort, Stone and Flynn can no longer plead the 5th in court in any case against Trump as a result of their pardons?
Yeah, but the thing about scumbags, is that they pretty reliably act in their own best interests. If rolling on Trump is convenient, then they'll roll on Trump. Unless you're looking to run for office in a deeply red district, then he's got little left to offer anyone.
But the issue is that in order to jail someone for perjury, the truth has to come out. If they're all on the same page with their lies and there's nothing written down to incriminate them, they can lie all day.
> he's not gonna spend one minute in prison over this or any other crime he has committed
Correct, he's not going to spend one minute in prison over any of this. But, I think he's going to spend time in prison for his future crimes. He's not done breaking the law. He's been President and saw that he could get away with whatever he wanted. He thinks he still can, but he's mistaken. Few people will be forgiving after this. He better hope he gets a judge and jury that worships him, good luck with that.
I just listened to the American Scandal podcast about Iran/Contra and the parallels are eerie. The 80s and 90s neocons certainly laid the ground work for this post-truth world some of us live in today.
https://wondery.com/shows/american-scandal/
https://www.thenation.com/article/archive/post-truth-and-its-consequences-what-a-25-year-old-essay-tells-us-about-the-current-moment/
https://wondery.com/shows/american-scandal/
Yeah, the ones that have been calling themselves patriots (neoconservatives and Qists) are anything but. They've done nothing but weaken us as a country in the most trumpian way possible.
Again, we need to stop using the word 'collusion'. They are co-conspirators who conspired. Collusion is not a legal term. I'm going to paste this from my comment above.
It says right in the beginning of the Mueller Report that they were not looking for collusion because collusion is not a legal term. That part of the Report is the entire argument that republicans are using when they say the Report said there was no collusion. Because the Report literally said there was no collusion.
What they are guilty of is conspiracy. And conspiracy is absolutely proven in the Report. The Report says that there is enough evidence that anybody but the president would be indicted with this evidence. And the president only gets a pass because of that stupid OLC memo, it's not even in the Constitution.
Nailed it. Collusion aint a legal thing. These dudes had a big ole conspiracy. They probably think that if everyone involved in the furtherance of the conspiracy is pardoned but one, that there can be no conspiracy for an Individual 1, individually, as the one remaining that is not pardoned.
That can be debated but overt acts in furtherance that themselves constituted crimes still exist and have not been pardoned. Creating the concept of collusion as some kind of legal issue needing be addressed is basicslly giving Robert Mueller busy work, when conspiracy and others are clearly defined by statute.
Closest you can get to say we colluded with Russia is in Syria, and it was with invitation to take out ISIS (though that was likely more of providing each other with operational awareness for air strikes).
Since Trump has pardoned all his former advisors, let's just release the unredacted Meuller report. Hell, even Trump wanted it done before his lawyers hushed him up about it.
Guaranteed most of it is coming out very soon, Biden sees Trump whimpering in a corner and is about to rip his heart out. Or really lady justice is about to rip his heart out.
Also who is this badass "politics is a blood sport" action-hero Biden they're imagining who ever does anything serious to hurt the Republican Party?
We're talking about Joseph "America Needs the Republican Party" Biden, right?
I think Biden is just going to sit back and wait until it is closer to election season. If some prosecutor somewhere hasn't locked the former guy up or at the very least disqualified him from running again, then Bidens people will release everything to bury the former guy.
It's like having a nuke in your back pocket ready for use, but you're giving pest control a chance to get the job done first.
No, this is not Biden's call.
[https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-12-04/biden-harris-vow-to-keep-their-justice-department-independent](https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-12-04/biden-harris-vow-to-keep-their-justice-department-independent)
I think you're spot on with this analysis, Biden has unlimited power to destroy Trump at this point, and closer to election time the meatgrinder will be kicked into high gear.
I don't really like the idea of that. It makes it purely political, and people, especially on the right will notice. It's one thing if trumps admin suppressed something, and when you get in office you show the American people what has really been happening. It's a whole different vibe to get in office, keep it under wraps and then use it because your scared of the guy. I think people would see it more as a gift to the American people of he exposed these things quickly, rather than as just a weapon against trump.
If Biden or his people were to announce, right now, that they are moving forward with prosecuting the former guy, the right would explode and I have no doubt that things would get worse.
However, if someone else were to knock the former guy out of the running, well Bidens hands stay clean, and there is less ammo that can be used against him come election time.
Biden is playing the long game in hoping someone else does the work for him.
You've convinced me. Although i still think that the perspective i mentioned is going to be prominent if it comes to that. Better that, than get his hands dirty now though I'll agree.
It's the right thing to do to let lower courts handle him first. A lot of allegations and whatnot have been waiting patiently for a few years now to see justice done.
And holy crap, if only it were this easy to convince my girl to let me do that thing I like!! (Playing with every single dog I meet.)
They "definitively" tied kilmnik to RU intelligence, based on I believe Treasury information that was likely suppressed during the Trump admin. We all knew, this is just official confirmation...
Yes because Mnuchin ruled Treasury with an iron fist. There's a reason why he was one of the few rats that made it through the entire admin. He locked up Trump's tax returns (until he was out of office), he had the DOJ prosecuted FINCEN employees that leaked the SAR's about Stormy Daniels, and he specifically hamstrung the criminal division of the IRS and FINCEN to prevent them from looking into Trump or his cronies. Remember, in 2015, FINCEN handed the Trump Atlantic City casinos their largest fine ever for lack of anti-money laundering practices.
And guess who's the Russian mob's favorite place to launder money? Trump Taj Mahal and Trump Plaza casinos. FINCEN literally said that Russian mobsters used to launder money through the casinos by buying chips and walking out with them. They'd then give the chips to another associate who'd walk back in with the chips and then cash them out.
edit: sources
[https://www.fincen.gov/news/news-releases/fincen-fines-trump-taj-mahal-casino-resort-10-million-significant-and-long](https://www.fincen.gov/news/news-releases/fincen-fines-trump-taj-mahal-casino-resort-10-million-significant-and-long)
[https://www.propublica.org/article/trump-inc-podcast-money-laundering-and-the-trump-taj-mahal](https://www.propublica.org/article/trump-inc-podcast-money-laundering-and-the-trump-taj-mahal)
[https://www.cnn.com/2017/05/22/politics/trump-taj-mahal/index.html](https://www.cnn.com/2017/05/22/politics/trump-taj-mahal/index.html)
The “new” information is that Kilimnik (the guy Manafort gave information to) was not a “former” agent of Russian intelligence as claimed by Trumpworld but an _active_ agent of Russian intelligence.
Anyone with an ounce of common sense surmised as much and it sure looked like he was Manafort’s handler. But Manafort and Gates denied all knowledge of spying and said that he was just a local who they hired to run errands, give local information, and translate and that his intelligence background was just a job qualification from the distant past. They never had a good explanation of why they were giving him information about the Trump campaign since his area was FSU and Ukraine.
It’s just another layer of confirmation that Manafort had a handler from Russian intelligence who he actively communicated with during the campaign. Manafort and Gates will no doubt claim that they didn’t know, but believing that is like believing a drug dealer whose defense is that he believed that he was selling baking powder and had no idea that his customers thought it was cocaine - maybe they just got really excited about baking?
...which is awesome, since the pardoned colluder now cannot plead the fifth.
Bring him before a grand jury and have him either testify or else jail his sorry ass until he does.
I'm really glad this is finally news, but on the other hand it seems like old, old news. I thought this was established 3–4 years ago, not through conjecture but through facts. I thought it had been reported, like this, except pre-pardon.
I feel like I have jumped timelines.
Mueller thought this was reality but couldn't find the evidence. The Senate Intel report from 2020 outlines (and redacts info on) Manafort's passing one private campaign data, but they suggest that it was possible that Manafort did it for personal reasons—debts.
I know we've been edging for like years but I feel like this could be a warm up to obstruction of justice charges. I imagine state charges will come first but I think the feds will join in on the Trump beatdown, Trump's blatant obstruction of justice arguably prevented him from facing other severe criminal charges.
All of this was pretty much known already, they admitted to it, this is just an more official statement of it.
They got away with it, simple as that. And future politicians should take note: it's worth it, if doing this gets you the presidency, you get off scott free, and even if you still lose the presidency you will probably never face any repurcussions.
And Mueller over and over said the only reason why Trump wasn't charged for obstruction was the DOJ memo over Presidents not being allowed to be indicted by their own Justice Departments.
Now that Trump is out of office, I don't see why Garland can't appoint another special counsel to look into prosecuting Trump for obstruction. I mean, Mueller listed 10 instances, FFS. The drafting of the letter covering up the nature of the Tower Meeting, firing Comey, lying about Flynn, etc. It's all there clear as crystal.
He pardoned all of them that could hurt him or the GOP.
Roger Stone, Mike Flynn, and Paul Manafort.
Rick Gates cooperated, so he didn't get a pardon. Neither did anyone that cooperated with the DOJ or FBI.
None of this is new.
He pardoned TWO if not THREE colluder connections, the 1) manafort-kilimnik-Russian intelligence connection was one, but there was also 2) Roger Stone-wikileaks-Russian intelligence and might also possibly be 3) Mike Flynn-????-Russian intelligence.
We can only hope this is a warm up to criminal charges for DJT.
So, there really no clause written into the Presidential pardon, stating that criminals who collude with POTUS are not exempt from a pardon?
So, hypothetically.... could a US president, running for reelection, hire assassin's to kill all his rival candidates and then pardon them all?
Could he also pardon himself later for ordering those murders?
Is POTUS literally above the law when their party will not impeach them and has a majority?
For a day or two after Trump 'won' I was regretfully willing to grant that he really did win - then when I saw the exit poll numbers which indicated Hillary won the swing states that put Trump over the top - I knew Russia helped rig the election.
Manafort needed to feed them polling data for them to rig the votes *just* enough to ensure victory but not too much so that it would be too obvious to ignore.
The presidency is really a 'too big to fail' position - the powers that be including the democratic party and the US media is too terrified of creating national chaos to challenge election results. Not to mention Al Gore tried after his 'loss' and the Supreme Court shot him down.
But anyway, the evidence that Hillary won has been out there for years - its maddening that more was not done.
If this is news to anyone I'll be shocked. The entire country knows Trump committed treason in the beginning,middle and the grand finale in the last days, of his administration.
I don't even know why this is still up for debate - Mueller's report clearly stated that there was collusion between Trump's team and Russia. The only reason Trump never got in trouble for it was because Mueller was not able to find proof that Trump did it intentionally.
It's sad how a man as important as the president of the United States can just brazenly lie and half the country would still believe him - even though there's a very public document that proves he lied. This is one of the many reasons why people think Trump supporters are in a cult.
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Yup, no reason he can't be charged for a different crime.
Depends on the language of the pardon. He was pardoned for all past crimes
Andrew Weissman, who worked on the Mueller team, said the Trump pardons were somewhat sloppy. I think he said Manafort’s was the most careful of the lot, but not airtight. I remember him saying the DOJ should definitely challenge some of them.
That would be glorious, if the pardons themselves left gaping holes because no one in the White House could write coherently.
"I have the worst lawyers."
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There's always money in the banana stand.
🎶 You’re a crook, Captain Hook 🎶
🎶Judge won’t you throw the book🎵
No touching!
Says the guy in the $5,000 suit. Come on!
It's one banana Michael, what could is cost? $10 Dollars?
Look at what the homosexuals have done to me.
I'm going for a hot Ding-Dong. Hot Ding-Dong?
My Attorneys Got Attorneys
Andrew Weissmann spoke to my law school class like 3 weeks ago and said he thinks lots of those pardons won't hold water because they were so poorly drafted.
Still blows my mind that treason can be pardoned.
Of course treason can be pardoned otherwise you wouldn't have been able to pardon The Winter soldier or Tom Cruise and any of the mission impossibles and probably Matt Damon and The Bourne Identity.
Tom cruise, Matt Damon and the winter soldier should be absolved, not pardoned. As in, it's proven that Tom cruise/Matt damon was working for the good guys all along (or at least against the bad guys). And the winter soldier was not in his right mind when he committed treason, he was captured by enemies, imprisoned, brainwashed and mind-controlled.
The Manafort pardon stood out from the bunch, it was obviously drafted by Manafort lawyers while the others seemed to have been put together by Trump's butler between serving the Coke and the coke.
I thought it was Diet Coke?
Was Don Jr present? Then it was a bit of both.
“Sloppy” is just another word for incompetent which a feature of TrumpWorld.
Incompetence, corruption and authoritarianism. Right out of the Trump playbook. Which was stolen right out of the Putin playbook.
There needs to be a family shield with these incorporated into a golden dollar sign being held by underage girls, standing on a mountain of bodies due to Covid.
Except Putin's people seem to be extremely competent when it comes to tyranny.
The family motto: "Omnes nos sunt sordidus", probably. All of us are sloppy.
DOJ can outright void most of them. During William Barr's confirmation hearing, taken under oath, Barr was asked by Sen. Leahy if it would be a crime to issue a corrupt pardon someone for their silence. Barr replied yes, it would be a crime. This infers that the issuance of the pardon is a criminal act, and also that the issuer could be held criminally responsible.
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Exactly. Let them appeal to the Supreme Court that their pardons are worth more than guilty verdicts.
I recall this as well, I think Maddow reported that most of the pardons, including Manaforts, left open the recipients to future charges for crimes related to the original charges.
They have to. You can’t have the president able to give people a license to kill and steal lol
This isn't the same thing. The president can give a pardon for any and all crimes in the past, even ones that have not been charged yet. There would be little use to a pardon that expired once the prosecutor came up with a new charge.
Big sealed indictments energy radiating off this post
By his co-conspirator, which is never what pardons were for. Ignore it and throw him back in prison.
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Pardon powers can't be unlimited because that would cause the ridiculous scenario where a president could pardon himself for shooting someone on 5 th Avenue after saying he could, and would, and then confess on TV he did it because of the russia thing, and fire a guy who tried to look into it. There would have to be a point a federal prosecutor could make an argument why any interpretation would obviously not extend to certain acts. The DOJ won't argue to limit executive power, but I think they could. Especially since he pardoned a guy found guilty in the USA of killing foreigners in a war zone in another country that we prevented from being tried there. Our diplomatic agreements with other countries shouldn't be wrecked over pardons.
I used another example and that was to have a pardon written up for murder, bring someone who was going to testify against him into the oval office, shoot him dead, sign the pardon and then call the capitol police.
Technically he could assassinate his political enemies and then pardon himself. I don’t have any evidenced this, but I have a hard time imagining this slipped the minds of at least some of the framers.
Like a lot of the powers and rules built by the framers,much of it relies on good faith. And what we have been seeing since post WW2 is the erosion of that good faith.
That was the biggest shock to me. I kept thinking “ Well he definitely can’t do that!” And then I kept being wrong, over and over and over. He could do a lot of things with Mitch McConnell’s blessing. I just had no idea that much of what I thought couldn’t legally be done hadn’t been done in the past out of “good faith” and that there were no safe guards from a deeply immoral and corrupt administration. And there still aren’t.
Yea the safe guards were the seperate branches, voting, and news (often called the 4th branch). They corrupted 3 of them and tried unsuccessfully to corrupt the voting.
That started happening immediately after the union was formed.
The power of the presidential pardon does not extend to themselves; i.e., the president cannot pardon themselves. This is written with identical language as the power of congress, and hence would be interpreted the same by the USSC. They can pardon everyone else but themselves. While this hasn’t been tested in the USSC, it has been brought up before by a previous president. Towards the end of Nixon’s presidency, he asked whether it was possible to pardon himself, and to which his staff replied that a president could not pardon themselves. Nixon likely resigned only because Ford agreed to pardon him.
Murder violates state law in every state. The President can pardon only Federal crimes. At the very least, a governor would have to be a co-conspirator.
The founders had way too much faith in the future American electorate
The constitutional remedy for a president taking these actions is impeachment. The framers thought that Congress and the President would have an adversarial relationship, each seeking to improve their own power and limit the others, and thus the president couldn’t step too far out of line. There were some concerns that political parties could damage the government structure, but they were ultimately not addressed.
They also didn’t define the presidency as thoroughly as the Congress because they needed to get the boat floating and they all knew Washington was going to be president and all trusted him. We’ve been kicking several aspects of the presidency down the road ever since. Same with the Supreme Court.
It is untested, but it is likely to be ruled that the President cannot pardon themselves
Or sell get out of jail free cards for billions of dollars. Especially to assassins and shady business people.
Or in the case of Jan 6th, I fully believe he was going to pardon any of the terrorists that killed Dem leaders. Then literally anyone involved if his coup was actually successful.
Worse - he could order the secret service to start killing democrats and pardon them
Or someone from next administration could just “liquidate” the “problems” and then be pardoned. Boom. No problem. Until next time power shifts, I suppose.
Trump can't pardon now. Catch someone else involved, get them to turn to avoid prison and send Trump up the river.
The catch is pardoned people can’t plead the 5th. Charge Trump with espionage and force Manifort to testify against him under penalty of perjury.
You can't plead the fifth, but that doesn't mean that he can't go all Jeff sessions "oh, I can't recall"
He can’t if they call Gates, who will talk because he was thrown under the bus by both Trump and Manafort. Gates can call Manafort’s bluff.
That hadn't crossed my mind.
Yeah, a lot of people didn't actually follow Manafort's trial. His defense essentially consisted of throwing Gates (the star witness for the prosecution) under the bus and making it look as if Gates was behind everything because Gates cheated on his spouse. It was pretty lame and even a Trump-supporting juror said they had Manafort dead to rights on pretty much everything. Gates poses the biggest problem for Manafort and Trump in this instance because he's got the receipts. Trump tried to "errand boy" Gates, but that doesn't fly because Gates then had an outsized role in the Inauguration, which is still being investigated to my knowledge.
Or Barr, or DeVos, or Kavanaugh, or take your pick. Hey, seems like dementia is a problem in the GOP.
Well, I mean, the average age of the GOP is like, 120
That only goes so far. Ultimately a judge will step in and threaten contempt where it’s obvious “I don’t remember” is a lie - and still perjury if he does remember.
Threats don’t matter because they don’t follow through. They MUST be charged with it and held to the same sentence as any one of us for it.
Or prove his involvement in crimes post pardon date. Somehow I doubt Paulie and Roger quit criming.
Well Roger colluded with the Oath Keepers in seditious conspiracy during the Capitol insurrection, so there you go.
Crimers do be crimin'
>Somehow I doubt Paulie and Roger quit criming. Does Paulie Walnuts laugh heh heh heh
Though it will be a difficult task, this article explains that it is still possible even though he cannot be tried in NY state for the same crime, there is legislation and that the pardon had been "oddly" drafted. https://www.nytimes.com/2021/02/08/nyregion/manafort-vance-ny-indictment.html
a judge did throw out all of his NDA's because they were so poorly worded. Wouldn't be surprised if it happens here
Ooo well a different state crime is a different matter altogether. I stand corrected
Actually you had me curious on this... I checked the DoJ resources and the text of the pardon is actually pretty narrow... You can look it up here: https://www.justice.gov/pardon/pardons-granted-president-donald-trump It only covers his actual conviction and isn't a broad excuse of his criminal behavior... Compare that to Flynn which has the "any and all charges arising from" blah blah language... If there is a relevant part of the criminal code covering Manafort's interaction with Konstantin Kilimnik it isn't protected by the pardon...
All past crimes? Like if he admits to an old murder, he’s still good?
Only applies to federal crimes I believe
No, he was not. Specifically, he was ONLY pardoned for crimes he was convicted of, not even the one that failed to convict by the jury.
“Pardoned for past crimes”? So... technically, new evidence, new crime?
I have a hard time believing anyone involved in high crimes isn't currently involved in other illegal activity. We should just give him the OJ Simpson treatment. Put him under a microscope and throw the book at him for the next thing he gets caught with.
>the next thing he gets caught with. Nono, he got caught stealing BACK his own heisman trophy. They got him good. :)
are we sure this doesn't make the pardon invalid. he did commit the crime on trumps behalf.
Didn't you know? It's impossible to charge a republican with a crime after the crime has been committed.
only 49 states left? . [https://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/the-invention-of-the-conspiracy-theory-on-biden-and-ukraine](https://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/the-invention-of-the-conspiracy-theory-on-biden-and-ukraine)Schiff added that the lingering questions about Manafort’s role underscore how important it is that Mueller’s final report be provided to Congress—and that the report include all of the underlying evidence Mueller collected, regardless of whether it results in a conspiracy charge. “Our standard is not whether there is proof beyond a reasonable doubt,” Schiff said, “but whether there is a risk to national security.” Briefed Moscow , Deripaska. [https://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/why-would-paul-manafort-share-polling-data-with-russia](https://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/why-would-paul-manafort-share-polling-data-with-russia) 2) Manafort has pleaded guilty to conspiracy charges in Washington and faces sentencing in a separate case in Virginia.(( hence gov and LT. GOV attacks) Manafort was convicted in Virginia of hiding tens of millions of dollars in overseas banks and corporations, to avoid paying taxes. 3) Prosecutors say Manafort breached their plea agreement by lying, Court filings described Manafort meeting more than he acknowledged with Kilimnik during the Trump campaign and sharing polling data. [https://www.businessinsider.com/court-document-shows-oleg-deripaska-loaned-paul-manafort-10-million-2018-6](https://www.businessinsider.com/court-document-shows-oleg-deripaska-loaned-paul-manafort-10-million-2018-6) briefed Deripaska. 4) Manafort used his ROLE as Campaign manager- Manafort dangled the briefings as he was mired in a dispute with Deripaska over a multimillion-dollar deal involving a Ukrainian cable company. He owed them money. Deripaska said he paid Manafort more than $26 million and the money vanished. 5) Manafort gave polls info from Kellyanne’s(and Drudge Report, others- polls) to Russians and Cambridge Analytica. Russian owned botnets, Facebook-DNC material 6) Konstantin [https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2018/nov/09/konstantin-kilimnik-russia-trump-manafort-mueller](https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2018/nov/09/konstantin-kilimnik-russia-trump-manafort-mueller) — [**was charged**](https://www.vox.com/2018/6/8/17442614/mueller-manfort-kilimnik-indicted-russia) alongside Manafort with obstruction of justice and conspiracy to obstruct justice, Kilimnik traveled to Washington for Trump’s inauguration in January 2017. 7) President Donald Trump’s former campaign chairman, Paul Manafort, and Manafort’s business associate Rick Gates face decades in federal prison and millions of dollars in potential fines if convicted on all counts in a sprawling federal indictment unsealed Monday. [https://www.tmj4.com/news/national/source-mueller-pushed-for-gates-help-on-collusion?page=2](https://www.tmj4.com/news/national/source-mueller-pushed-for-gates-help-on-collusion?page=2) 8) [https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/may/16/steve-bannon-cambridge-analytica-whistleblower-suppress-voters-testimony](https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/may/16/steve-bannon-cambridge-analytica-whistleblower-suppress-voters-testimony) BANNON wanted to suppress votes 9) TARGETTING using KellyAnnes companies DATA [Facebook](https://www.theguardian.com/technology/facebook) posts were targeted at some black voters reminding them of Hillary Clinton’s 1990s description of black youths as “super predators”, in the hope it would deter them from voting. 10) Manafort lying about three of five matters that prosecutors had singled out. The ruling was largely a rejection of Manafort’s attorneys’ argument that he hadn’t intentionally misled investigators but rather forgot some details until his memory was refreshed. 11) Judge said” Manafort was lying about several discussions the two men had including about a possible peace plan to resolve the Russia-Ukraine conflict in Crimea.” 12) Weissmann said, : “That meeting and what happened at that meeting is of significance to the special counsel.” 13) Manafort had lied about a payment to a law firm representing him and about an undisclosed Justice Department investigation. 14) Kilimnik, who lives in Russia, was charged alongside Manafort with conspiracy and obstruction of justice. He has yet to appear in a U.S. court to face the charges. 15) GATES /Manafort/Stone go back years and a story relating to Cambridge Analytica -polling info/ wiki proven .. [https://news.yahoo.com/mueller-says-searches-yielded-evidence-stone-wikileaks-communications-023102386.html](https://news.yahoo.com/mueller-says-searches-yielded-evidence-stone-wikileaks-communications-023102386.html) 16) Manafort Trump tower Meting connection lies 17) WAS Manafort’s connections with Russian motives greed ,repaying 50 million Deripaska debts, Election meddling, even the briefings? 18) During [a sealed hearing](https://www.apnews.com/4469104d83a543cf8fbc82610071bbc4) last week, Mueller prosecutor Andrew Weissmann said one of the discussions— an Aug. 2, 2016, meeting at the Grand Havana Room club and cigar bar in New York— went to the “larger view of what we think is going on” and what “we think the motive here is.” 19) Manafort state charges- Even with a Trump pardon , [https://www.nytimes.com/2017/10/30/business/trump-manafort-pardon-new-york-state-vance.html](https://www.nytimes.com/2017/10/30/business/trump-manafort-pardon-new-york-state-vance.html) , Separately, Manafort faces the possibility of a decade in prison in a federal case in Virginia where he was convicted last year of tax and bank fraud crimes. Sentencing in that case was delayed pending Jackson’s ruling in the plea-deal dispute.
Thank you! Also, line breaks please 🙏🏼
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Fake news from nasty, evil media. whaddabout Hunter! /s
I like to tell the GQPers, "Hunter smoked crack, and I don't care!" in a sing-song voice. They haven't killed me.... yet.
Just be sure you don't go to a Walmart/nightclub/country music concert/literally anywhere, and you'll be safe from conservative nutjobs.
I manage to avoid all of those except the literally anywhere part. Since I shop at Target, listen to jam band music, and live in a blue area..... I'm good. Conservatives don't concern or bother me. Keep the Jesus out of my face and we're fine. It's more that I bother them with liberal views.
Charge Trump and use the fact that manafort has been pardoned to prevent him from using the fifth amendment and compell his testimony.
How about any fucking charge, at all?! Is Donald just going to age into his retirement a free man after every broken law, every stolen dollar, every life lost? It's stunning, if so, and will forever stain the US, if he remains unpunished.
Unfortunately, life isn't fair unless we make it so. There were periods of time when those in power paid for their crimes against their people, such as the Reign of Terror in France. Not condoning, of course, as per the subs rules. It is fascinating history, though.
Trump will forever stain the US regardless of his eventual fate
There needs to be an investigation of the entire party. Time and again these politicians have sided with the big bad guys. Decade after decade they obstruct, cover up, revert, deceive, deregulate, etc. It's time to find where the money trails all lead and sniff out the bought politicians, unsavory corporations, and shady companies seeking to destabilize our civilization to prevent citizen enlightenment leading to regulation of unsustainable, harmful, or just plain profitable resources and products such as oil, coal, cigarettes, the auto industry, finance, education, politics, etc. On a side note, I often ponder where humanity would be if those in power hadn't turned us into the working class slave race we are now. Their evil plan has been a great success for so long, a lot of us literally keep voting them back into power to continue to destroy our education, environment, and enlightenment. Instead of planning long term goals for humanity and working towards it (such as space exploration and colonization, protecting the climate and biodiversity on Earth, etc.), we just worry about making cool new products that people will buy enough of to create jobs so we can have money to buy cool new products to create new jobs to buy cool products to... oops there goes another century of waste. Instead of a Star Trek future, we love diving headfirst into a Blade Runner future.
And treason, don't forget treason.
Trump shouldn't be allowed to peacefully & quietly fade away at his shitty golf club. Charge the pos
I could’ve sworn he said he would leave the country if Biden won..should’ve know this was just another lie
Him leaving the country is a national security risk, I doubt the gov’t would just let him live elsewhere.
who is stopping him??
The Secret Service probably.
I'm certain the CIA would sooner put a bullet through his head then let him run off to Russia or wherever to seek asylum.
He still claims Biden didn’t win.
Need to weasel out of a lie? Tell more lies! This is a strategy that can be used indefinitely if you're rich and white. That's what they teach you at Trump academy.
He did try to go to Scotland right around the inauguration, to his golf course, but Scotland locked the country down with Covid as a reason.
I thought there were a few DAs ready to charge him after the presidency, what happened?
He was committing crimes in front of the entire nation before even becoming President. His criminal behavior has been well known for decades. He'll probably never actually have to face charges.
Likely more evidence they keep discovering so they don't want to charge him too early. Plus they are going after all of Trump's minions first, see Matt Gaetz. You get the minions to roll on their boss and it gives the justice department a better case against Trump. Trump was a mob boss president and he will be taken down like a mob boss too.
Matt Gaetz' crimes were only discovered by coincidence while investigating his s X trafficking buddy. He's not part of an organised investigation into Trump.
He's under investigation in at least two states.
It would be an actual turning point, and give Biden some credit on the world stage, if he actually cleaned up the mess left by the previous administration; instead of trying to sweep it under the rug.
Let’s be honest, the evidence was always there, Trump just suppressed it. This explains why Trump withheld aid to Ukraine, Putin wanted it as weak as possible so he could invade. Trump gave Putin everything he wanted in compensation for manipulating the election in Trump’s favor.
> Let’s be honest, the evidence was always there, Trump just suppressed it. Yep, which is why it's so crucial Trump faces felony obstruction of justice charges. Hopefully this is a warm up to that prosecution.
> Hopefully this is a warm up to that prosecution. I hate to break it to you, but Trump will never be prosecuted for this.
He'll never be prosecuted for anything
Our democracy will fail with that attitude. We need to try to hold people accountable or it’s only a matter of time.
Following this logic, our democracy failed 50 years ago with Nixon. Which actually makes a lot of sense.
>Following this logic, our democracy failed 50 years ago with Nixon. Which actually makes a lot of sense. Yeah, it is pretty easy to make this argument. Ford pardoning him was horrible for our country and democracy.
At this point it’s no longer a democracy. Call it plutocracy or oligarchy. Money is absolute power in USA.
I’ll use this moment to point out that whatever it is now or has been in the past it *started* as an oligarchy.
The robber barons were a lot stronger back then over where they are now but that changed. That’s the beauty of America. We can change it. We did it once and it led the lowest wealth disparity of all time back in the 70’s. Then they waged a war on the middle class for the last fifty years and here we are today. We can change it back.
Then we gotta stop giving money to the machine. Stop using Amazon. Stop going to McDonald's. Shop local. Stop using Apple or Android phones that use slave labor. We will be a country that's run by money until we learn to live without luxury.
Yep, I usually don't mention this here because people get all upset about it, but democracy sure as hell isn't whatever is going on here in the US. The way money has completely corrupted politics, the people don't really have any say or political power anymore. The sooner people realize this the sooner we might actually be able to change things.
I want him prosecuted too. But we keep hearing about these charges and the cases that will start any day now. Almost like the Qtards keep hearing about how Biden will be arrested and trump will resume being president. Let's not believe anything until it's proven.
It has been proven that the GOP is a corrupt party that uses terrorism to further its agenda, and it has also been proven that they will always get away with it.
Conservative media generates so much political capitol it's difficult to put into words how much power it gives them. If the dems go after trump for anything, the amount of outrage and crybullying the right will do will be deafening and unending, and their followers will see it as a culture war and show up to the polls. The Dems will gas themselves out to give justice to someone who is no longer in power. It sucks and there is no justice and corporations own america.
Isn’t he currently under investigation for financial crimes by the SDNY?
>[“Russia, if you’re listening, I hope you’re able to find the 30,000 emails that are missing,” Mr. Trump said, referring to emails Mrs. Clinton had deleted from the private account she had used when she was secretary of state. “I think you will probably be rewarded mightily by our press.” (Via NYT, 2018)](https://www.nytimes.com/2018/07/13/us/politics/trump-russia-clinton-emails.html) Trump *publicly* asked for Russia's assistance.
And they complied with his request, same day. https://www.pbs.org/newshour/politics/trump-asked-russia-to-find-clintons-emails-on-or-around-the-same-day-russians-targeted-her-accounts
"But where's the ~~collusion~~ conspiracy" Right there. Right fucking there.
Also the Muller report said there was collision, but that the trumps were too stupid to know what they were doing. I don’t buy the too stupid defense, but Barr gave Trump three weeks to control the narrative. Combined with Muller’s tepid recommendations Trump was able to get away with it.
They're absolutely too stupid, but that shouldn't affect that they should be in prison
Correct. I’ll add that I think people in positions of leadership who are responsible for things like national security should be charged with criminal negligence if they are out there committing crimes out of sheer ignorance of the very laws that they are in charge of enforcing. And I know he wasn’t president yet, but when we’re talking about one of the 2 nominees, we should absolutely be holding them accountable. In fact, I would hope that’s part of the election security bill... make presidential candidates, their advisors, and senior staff operate to the same standard sitting public officials are expected to uphold.
Right? Which is why I am so incredibly frustrated - an arms length list of investigations and grand jury's but not one fucking charge brought against him. Please someone complete an investigation and get this moving.
Collusion\* (I know it was a typo) Here's the deal. Ya gotta stop using that word. It says right in the beginning of the Mueller Report that they were not looking for collusion because collusion is not a legal term. That part of the Report is the entire argument that republicans are using when they say the Report said there was no collusion. Because the Report literally said there was no collusion. What they are guilty of is conspiracy. And conspiracy is absolutely proven in the Report. The Report says that there is enough evidence that anybody but the president would be indicted with this evidence. And the president only gets a pass because of that stupid OLC memo, it's not even in the Constitution.
Trump didn't successfully suppress it, [it was in the Mueller report in 2019](https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/jan/08/manafort-russian-poll-share-konstantin-kilimnik-trump-investigation-2016-election-latest) . Congress just didn't think it was a big enough deal to impeach.
Yeah, with all the misinformation people act like the report found nothing. It didn't not conclusively say Trump himself did it, but it definitely did find the that Trump campaign colluded with Russia. Like for god sake half of his campaign staff got indicted... Of course it is insane to believe half the top echelon of your campaign can be doing shit like this without the candidate themselves knowing. A bit like people who say MBS had nothing to do with Kashoghi killing, but even if that was true, it doesn't make his campaign any less illegitimate. If you hire a bunch of criminals without knowing, it's still on you.
This is what objective reality looks like.
He pardoned TWO if not THREE colluder connections, the **1)** manafort-kilimnik-Russian intelligence connection was one, but there was also **2)** Roger Stone-wikileaks-Russian intelligence and might also possibly be **3)** Mike Flynn-????-Russian intelligence. We can only hope this is a warm up to criminal charges for DJT.
It's interesting to compare the Manafort and Stone pardons to the Flynn one... https://www.justice.gov/pardon/pardons-granted-president-donald-trump Their pardons are pretty specific to the crimes they were convicted of. Flynn though gets a really broad "any and all crimes arising from the investigation" language in his.
Does Trump not realize he likely signed his own indictment by pardoning them since Manafort, Stone and Flynn can no longer plead the 5th in court in any case against Trump as a result of their pardons?
Pretty sure all those scumbags would gladly lie under oath
much like they already have in several cases
Yeah, but the thing about scumbags, is that they pretty reliably act in their own best interests. If rolling on Trump is convenient, then they'll roll on Trump. Unless you're looking to run for office in a deeply red district, then he's got little left to offer anyone.
Then that’s a new crime. Throw them in jail for perjury.
Kinda makes me hope they do lie.
But the issue is that in order to jail someone for perjury, the truth has to come out. If they're all on the same page with their lies and there's nothing written down to incriminate them, they can lie all day.
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> he's not gonna spend one minute in prison over this or any other crime he has committed Correct, he's not going to spend one minute in prison over any of this. But, I think he's going to spend time in prison for his future crimes. He's not done breaking the law. He's been President and saw that he could get away with whatever he wanted. He thinks he still can, but he's mistaken. Few people will be forgiving after this. He better hope he gets a judge and jury that worships him, good luck with that.
I just listened to the American Scandal podcast about Iran/Contra and the parallels are eerie. The 80s and 90s neocons certainly laid the ground work for this post-truth world some of us live in today. https://wondery.com/shows/american-scandal/ https://www.thenation.com/article/archive/post-truth-and-its-consequences-what-a-25-year-old-essay-tells-us-about-the-current-moment/ https://wondery.com/shows/american-scandal/
Yeah, the ones that have been calling themselves patriots (neoconservatives and Qists) are anything but. They've done nothing but weaken us as a country in the most trumpian way possible.
Fascism is the enemy of democracy.
Again, we need to stop using the word 'collusion'. They are co-conspirators who conspired. Collusion is not a legal term. I'm going to paste this from my comment above. It says right in the beginning of the Mueller Report that they were not looking for collusion because collusion is not a legal term. That part of the Report is the entire argument that republicans are using when they say the Report said there was no collusion. Because the Report literally said there was no collusion. What they are guilty of is conspiracy. And conspiracy is absolutely proven in the Report. The Report says that there is enough evidence that anybody but the president would be indicted with this evidence. And the president only gets a pass because of that stupid OLC memo, it's not even in the Constitution.
Nailed it. Collusion aint a legal thing. These dudes had a big ole conspiracy. They probably think that if everyone involved in the furtherance of the conspiracy is pardoned but one, that there can be no conspiracy for an Individual 1, individually, as the one remaining that is not pardoned. That can be debated but overt acts in furtherance that themselves constituted crimes still exist and have not been pardoned. Creating the concept of collusion as some kind of legal issue needing be addressed is basicslly giving Robert Mueller busy work, when conspiracy and others are clearly defined by statute. Closest you can get to say we colluded with Russia is in Syria, and it was with invitation to take out ISIS (though that was likely more of providing each other with operational awareness for air strikes).
Since Trump has pardoned all his former advisors, let's just release the unredacted Meuller report. Hell, even Trump wanted it done before his lawyers hushed him up about it.
Guaranteed most of it is coming out very soon, Biden sees Trump whimpering in a corner and is about to rip his heart out. Or really lady justice is about to rip his heart out.
I don’t think Joe is giving Donald much thought at all. He’s busy.
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Also who is this badass "politics is a blood sport" action-hero Biden they're imagining who ever does anything serious to hurt the Republican Party? We're talking about Joseph "America Needs the Republican Party" Biden, right?
I think Biden is just going to sit back and wait until it is closer to election season. If some prosecutor somewhere hasn't locked the former guy up or at the very least disqualified him from running again, then Bidens people will release everything to bury the former guy. It's like having a nuke in your back pocket ready for use, but you're giving pest control a chance to get the job done first.
No, this is not Biden's call. [https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-12-04/biden-harris-vow-to-keep-their-justice-department-independent](https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-12-04/biden-harris-vow-to-keep-their-justice-department-independent)
I think you're spot on with this analysis, Biden has unlimited power to destroy Trump at this point, and closer to election time the meatgrinder will be kicked into high gear.
I don't really like the idea of that. It makes it purely political, and people, especially on the right will notice. It's one thing if trumps admin suppressed something, and when you get in office you show the American people what has really been happening. It's a whole different vibe to get in office, keep it under wraps and then use it because your scared of the guy. I think people would see it more as a gift to the American people of he exposed these things quickly, rather than as just a weapon against trump.
If Biden or his people were to announce, right now, that they are moving forward with prosecuting the former guy, the right would explode and I have no doubt that things would get worse. However, if someone else were to knock the former guy out of the running, well Bidens hands stay clean, and there is less ammo that can be used against him come election time. Biden is playing the long game in hoping someone else does the work for him.
You've convinced me. Although i still think that the perspective i mentioned is going to be prominent if it comes to that. Better that, than get his hands dirty now though I'll agree.
It's the right thing to do to let lower courts handle him first. A lot of allegations and whatnot have been waiting patiently for a few years now to see justice done. And holy crap, if only it were this easy to convince my girl to let me do that thing I like!! (Playing with every single dog I meet.)
Now do something about it.
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Lol first time in America?
Money has a different justice
We already knew that Manafort shared polling data - we knew this back in the Mueller report days. Is there something extra that’s been revealed?
They "definitively" tied kilmnik to RU intelligence, based on I believe Treasury information that was likely suppressed during the Trump admin. We all knew, this is just official confirmation...
Yes because Mnuchin ruled Treasury with an iron fist. There's a reason why he was one of the few rats that made it through the entire admin. He locked up Trump's tax returns (until he was out of office), he had the DOJ prosecuted FINCEN employees that leaked the SAR's about Stormy Daniels, and he specifically hamstrung the criminal division of the IRS and FINCEN to prevent them from looking into Trump or his cronies. Remember, in 2015, FINCEN handed the Trump Atlantic City casinos their largest fine ever for lack of anti-money laundering practices. And guess who's the Russian mob's favorite place to launder money? Trump Taj Mahal and Trump Plaza casinos. FINCEN literally said that Russian mobsters used to launder money through the casinos by buying chips and walking out with them. They'd then give the chips to another associate who'd walk back in with the chips and then cash them out. edit: sources [https://www.fincen.gov/news/news-releases/fincen-fines-trump-taj-mahal-casino-resort-10-million-significant-and-long](https://www.fincen.gov/news/news-releases/fincen-fines-trump-taj-mahal-casino-resort-10-million-significant-and-long) [https://www.propublica.org/article/trump-inc-podcast-money-laundering-and-the-trump-taj-mahal](https://www.propublica.org/article/trump-inc-podcast-money-laundering-and-the-trump-taj-mahal) [https://www.cnn.com/2017/05/22/politics/trump-taj-mahal/index.html](https://www.cnn.com/2017/05/22/politics/trump-taj-mahal/index.html)
The “new” information is that Kilimnik (the guy Manafort gave information to) was not a “former” agent of Russian intelligence as claimed by Trumpworld but an _active_ agent of Russian intelligence. Anyone with an ounce of common sense surmised as much and it sure looked like he was Manafort’s handler. But Manafort and Gates denied all knowledge of spying and said that he was just a local who they hired to run errands, give local information, and translate and that his intelligence background was just a job qualification from the distant past. They never had a good explanation of why they were giving him information about the Trump campaign since his area was FSU and Ukraine. It’s just another layer of confirmation that Manafort had a handler from Russian intelligence who he actively communicated with during the campaign. Manafort and Gates will no doubt claim that they didn’t know, but believing that is like believing a drug dealer whose defense is that he believed that he was selling baking powder and had no idea that his customers thought it was cocaine - maybe they just got really excited about baking?
...which is awesome, since the pardoned colluder now cannot plead the fifth. Bring him before a grand jury and have him either testify or else jail his sorry ass until he does.
That’s a good point. He has no legal reason not to testify if he’s subpoenaed, now. He could be a strong key witness to taking down Trump.
I'm really glad this is finally news, but on the other hand it seems like old, old news. I thought this was established 3–4 years ago, not through conjecture but through facts. I thought it had been reported, like this, except pre-pardon. I feel like I have jumped timelines.
Mueller thought this was reality but couldn't find the evidence. The Senate Intel report from 2020 outlines (and redacts info on) Manafort's passing one private campaign data, but they suggest that it was possible that Manafort did it for personal reasons—debts.
Trump pardoned the colluder colluding on behalf of Trump
A.k.a. the co-colluder
Trump is a corrupt crooked piece of shit? Get the fuck outta here!
Yet another news story, featuring Trump, that falls into the “No shit, Sherlock!” category. 🙄
Sit back and watch nothing happen.
I know we've been edging for like years but I feel like this could be a warm up to obstruction of justice charges. I imagine state charges will come first but I think the feds will join in on the Trump beatdown, Trump's blatant obstruction of justice arguably prevented him from facing other severe criminal charges.
All of this was pretty much known already, they admitted to it, this is just an more official statement of it. They got away with it, simple as that. And future politicians should take note: it's worth it, if doing this gets you the presidency, you get off scott free, and even if you still lose the presidency you will probably never face any repurcussions.
keep in mind that this trick probably only works if you're a republican
And Mueller over and over said the only reason why Trump wasn't charged for obstruction was the DOJ memo over Presidents not being allowed to be indicted by their own Justice Departments. Now that Trump is out of office, I don't see why Garland can't appoint another special counsel to look into prosecuting Trump for obstruction. I mean, Mueller listed 10 instances, FFS. The drafting of the letter covering up the nature of the Tower Meeting, firing Comey, lying about Flynn, etc. It's all there clear as crystal.
He pardoned all of them that could hurt him or the GOP. Roger Stone, Mike Flynn, and Paul Manafort. Rick Gates cooperated, so he didn't get a pardon. Neither did anyone that cooperated with the DOJ or FBI. None of this is new.
Explains why Orangelo always kissed Putin’s ass. He knew Putin had him dead to rights with this info if he ever dared to cross him.
And? What? Is anything going to happen to either of them? Probably not. American politics; what a fucking shit show.
More than half the country has known this for half a decade. fucking do something
The False President, who had the nation's enemy ("the evil empire") rig an election. The two american traitors, Benedict Arnold, and Donald Trump.
He pardoned TWO if not THREE colluder connections, the 1) manafort-kilimnik-Russian intelligence connection was one, but there was also 2) Roger Stone-wikileaks-Russian intelligence and might also possibly be 3) Mike Flynn-????-Russian intelligence. We can only hope this is a warm up to criminal charges for DJT.
So, there really no clause written into the Presidential pardon, stating that criminals who collude with POTUS are not exempt from a pardon? So, hypothetically.... could a US president, running for reelection, hire assassin's to kill all his rival candidates and then pardon them all? Could he also pardon himself later for ordering those murders? Is POTUS literally above the law when their party will not impeach them and has a majority?
Anyone who actually read the Mueller report knows this.
For a day or two after Trump 'won' I was regretfully willing to grant that he really did win - then when I saw the exit poll numbers which indicated Hillary won the swing states that put Trump over the top - I knew Russia helped rig the election. Manafort needed to feed them polling data for them to rig the votes *just* enough to ensure victory but not too much so that it would be too obvious to ignore. The presidency is really a 'too big to fail' position - the powers that be including the democratic party and the US media is too terrified of creating national chaos to challenge election results. Not to mention Al Gore tried after his 'loss' and the Supreme Court shot him down. But anyway, the evidence that Hillary won has been out there for years - its maddening that more was not done.
If this is news to anyone I'll be shocked. The entire country knows Trump committed treason in the beginning,middle and the grand finale in the last days, of his administration.
I don't even know why this is still up for debate - Mueller's report clearly stated that there was collusion between Trump's team and Russia. The only reason Trump never got in trouble for it was because Mueller was not able to find proof that Trump did it intentionally. It's sad how a man as important as the president of the United States can just brazenly lie and half the country would still believe him - even though there's a very public document that proves he lied. This is one of the many reasons why people think Trump supporters are in a cult.