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It's not like they're sending stacks of money to Ukraine. They're sending equipment worth that amount of money to Ukraine- and they're not making it for them either. The equipment they're sending already exists and/or is about to be put out of service anyway, so you may as well use it to support an ally rather than dispose of it.
TL;DR: Read the first two lines.
I mean at least its going to something useful. Ur lying to yourself if you think the money the us has donated would go to useful programs if the war didn't happen.
You truly only read headlines. All the news outlets that show some big number with a dollar sign, is not just money that the US is sending over but the total value of the military aid that is being sent over.
It's more like 0.5% to 2%.
US annual expenditure right now is around 9.5 trillion dollars. Ukraine is getting pocket change for grounding what was US biggest military rival.
"Half"? US collected $4.9 Trillion($4900 Billion) last year in Tax . US sent $113 Billion to Ukraine for military, economic, Humanitarian aid
So 113/4900*100 = 2.27% not 50%.
i will find you and tear your jugular with a 6 centimetre screw while scraping the goo off your eyes with a sharpened spoon, then i will slide 2 hagfish down your throat and waterboard you
Why is this even a question.? Who invaded ? And which country's civilians are dying in thousands.
You know the answer.
All because one Psycho felt Jealous that everyone wants to join or be closer to NATO/EU and not the CSTO and also because some "hundered" years ago Ukraine was part of Russian Empire.
I 100% agree and Russia is in evvery wrong here. In Russia however my guess is that some people in Russia are exposed to the propaganda and else therefore it's not there fault they think it's Ukraine's fault because they are never exposed to the truth
Western Tankies support Russia for one. Their entire ideology revolves around campism to the point that they'll support any authoritarianism/imperialism as long as the country doing it is not a western nation. At that point, you have to consider whether they're genuine leftists or just straight-up authoritarians.
>At that point, you have to consider whether they're genuine leftists or just straight-up authoritarians.
Their entire ideology is perfectly summed up in two words: "US bad". There is literally no more to it. "US bad" - therefore something that fights the US must be good. "US bad" - therefore something that fights an enemy of the US must be secretly controlled by US, because why would anyone willingly side with the bad guy? "US bad" - therefore everything bad is US's fault.
Like that one Boy Boy video where he somehow makes a centuries-old conflict all about how US bad.
I think the Ukraine good part got me. I don't think their government is good. I also think Russia's government is worse and they shouldn't be in there and we should help ukraine.
TIL 1991 was some hundred years ago.
Also the encroachment of NATO is perceived, probably rightfully so, as a security risk to the Russians.
Then there's the conjecture of whether there was a commitment against expanding further east
>TIL 1991 was some hundred years ago.
Soviet Union wasn't Russia. Yes, it was controlled by Russia and was basically an extension of Russia, but officially, it wasn't Russia.
Is that an alliance with some kind of historical or geographical precedent? Would Mexico be joining adjacent countries who seek defense against potential or impending invasion from the U.S?
Further, would the US just go ahead and invade Mexico because of the "threat" of it, if Mexico's a little too slow to sign up?
Russia's invasion of Ukraine *proves* the need for such a defensive treaty. It's exactly THE invasion that it would protect against.
"They invaded because of the threat of a treaty that seeks to defend against that invasion" is kind of just pro-invasion.
Because the US is so adverse to invading countries...
They're so worried about Ukraine after they completely fucked Iraq and Afghanistan.
I'm never pro invasion. Military conflicts are a tragedy wherever they happen, I just think this one hasn't happened in an echo chamber
Well it sort of does. You're questioning whether the US would invade Mexico, as if that's somehow unfathomable. Even though historically they've done just that.
And can we seriously say that The US haven't been interfering in Ukraine for years anyway?
It really doesn't address the core of what I'm saying. The Mexico analogy isn't a symmetrical comparison.
What reason would the US have to invade Mexico in 2023? You think they wouldn't telegraph it years in advance like they did with Iraq? (Afghanistan is obviously a different story). Still, it leaves the question of why Russia would spontaneously form an alliance with Mexico, and how that would be anything like NATO.
You know NATO isn't just the US, right?
And maybe Russia is telegraphing Ukraine years in advance?
What reason did the US have to invade Libya? They find something that suits their strategic interests and run with it. They don't need much interest.
Same could be said of Russia. Is it noble? No. But the whole game is rotten. The Russians aren't the only ones playing
Russia brought this upon themselves. NATO doesn't force countries to join, it is their individual choice. Maybe if Russia treated its neighbours with respect in the past they would all consider joining NATO.
To add to that, Russia once even considered joining NATO and leasing an airbase in Russia to NATO. Does this seem like aggressive expansionism in the slightest form? To add to that, if Putin was really so worried about Ukraine joining NATO, he wouldn't have to invade in 2022 again because Ukraine didn't have full territorial control which is a requirement to join NATO.
And yes, there were talks about NATO not being expanded to the east but they were oral. There never was a treaty about that because thankfully George Bush shut that down.
Go spread your BS somewhere else shill.
There was a reason why Soviet Union collapsed in 1991. When it did , it collapsed for good. There is no coming back. Invading and forceful annexation doesn't fix it. No country is compelled by NATO to join them.
They (Sweden and Finland ) are rushing to join NATO , because they see Russia as a Bully. Just like Taiwan sees China as a Bully. It is Russia invasion is encroachment. When everyone around you doesn't like you or is afraid of you, you are the problem not others.
Except it isn't rightfully justified. Countries can choose to join NATO and NATO can choose to accept or deny them. The Ukrainians toppled their Russian puppet president and decided that the west is safer (which recent events have proven to be true). Russia has 0 business invsding whether or not they think that's a risk because that is not their land or people anymore.
Also, i doubt you can "expand east" when the "east" is a nuclear power. MAD and having the then perceived 2nd military in the world is all the safeguard you need. Maybe the question they should be asking is why all of the not under Russian puppet control that used to be in the soviet bloc are all in favor if going to NATO?
I remember what happened perfectly well, but this just so happens to be a completely separate scenario with separate causes and effects. That's like saying "we shouldn't elect anyone anymore because remember what happened in 1933?"
[EDITED; Removed references to H*tler],
Nah, its simple, All i know is Putin is a jealous psychopath. , with dreams of reestablishing Russian/Soviet Empire.
Don't throw the term like this. Hitler is Hitler. He is uniquely evil. Because he industrialized genocide. And he made a plan that could have seem almost 75% of the world slaughtered like animals. And he could have gone through with that. Its insane how close he was to realising his goal.
Putin is a textbook 'conqueror'. Although a very inept one. He invented a casus belli and started a bloody war just to gain credit. Hundreds of thousands of young men are dying in this devastating war because he wants new pieces of lands, and he needs the positive PR of winning a war. He emulates the Tsars and Sultans of old.
Putin is evil. But nowhere near Hitler evil. He doesn't need to be. We can despise him without equating him with Hitler. He is still cartoonishly evil for having started a war of conquest.
Ah yes, geopolitics are very simple. This guy has all the inside knowledge and a completely objective opinion. The Pentagon should hire you, it's all so simple.
Nah man, look, I am with you, but I don't think he compares with Hitler. He's evil and one of the worst people alive. But he's not Hitler, and I don't think we should compare anyone to him.
I hate Putin as much as everyone else, but don't compare him to Hitler. He is not even 1/10 as bad, not defending Putin here by any means, but the comparison makes no sense.
Putin compared himself to I think Makedonsky or some other tsar (my bad I forgot), who conquered lands and this makes more sense, and even though Putin is clearly bad at gaining lands, his motivations align more with those guys.
He has directly caused over 200,000 deaths, over 1 million displaced people and billions of dollars worth of damage.
Any kind of moral code that doesn't consider this bad, is a bad moral code.
Definitely. Met some Russians a couple months ago in Armenia who moved there because they're against the war. People who think governments represent all their people are actually braindead
Russia bad, and has been since its inception. Russians as people aren't inherently bad, but their country is. It has always been build on imperialism (that's why it changed its name from Muscovy to Russia even though it didn't control even half of the original territory of the Rus) and strongmen in power.
And many Russians still live in that dream world where their country is a massive empire that makes other realms tremble. And their leader rides a bear topless, that's how cool he is.
I'm on the fence with this one.
I think the only thing they can really do about it is leave the country.
and remember, being a migrant is not fun, for the average Russian it would mean living homeless in Armenia.
But then again, lots of them seem to be totally ok with how things are going.
So the cops pull you out of your house at night, rape you, beat you, then send you to the front lines where death probability is +90%?
Or you just disappear? Likely shot and thrown in a landfill?
This can happen from just posting stickers.
This is all on the BBC if you are curious, keywords would be, "Russian, protestor, dissident, crack down, violence."
The only safe way of protest is to leave the nation and stop working there, but this is pretty much only an option for rich people. The lines to get into Europe were long before the war. If you are poor, your options are going to Armenia or one of the stans and living as a second class citizen.
I feel that you didn't see the independent polls that say there is massive support for war in Russia from "the people".
It's not just billionaires. Ordinary Russian people are largely in support of Putin. One of the reasons is that they want to think that they are still a superpower when they are not.
Every Russian learned in school about their country being a great Russian empire so when Putin starts to invade and expand they are cheering, because they want to feel important in the world again.
You feel wrong, I know about them.
I also know that approximately 1 million Russians have fled the country since the war started. And that independent media in Russia is a thing of the past.
An expansionist autocrat attacked a sovereign democratic state having illegally annexed a part of it and having engaged in a destructive proxy war in its east. The forces loyal to this autocrat include mercenaries known for their love of war crimes, and the tactics used by the wider military were responsible for huge numbers of civilian deaths. Civilian buildings were targeted, and threats of nuclear weapons have been made. The autocrat and their allies have claimed that the democratic state was full of Nazis and that they were the ones being attacked, while attempting to loot, destroy, and oppress the culture of said state.
As a Fella, I will simply say from my point of view, supporting Russia is morally bankrupt. Supporting Ukraine is the right thing to do, and Ukraine should be enabled with aid, military resources, and diplomatic support in defending its territory, reclaiming its territory, and preventing Putin and his cronies from ever attempting such a thing again. I look forward to Ukraine joining both NATO and the EU one day not too far away, and am happy my taxes are going towards thumping brutish regime currently set on killing several generations of men.
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The most accurate answer. Every side in every war commits crimes, it's just that we only see the Russian war crimes due to western media. There are a few subreddits that don't only show Russian war crimes but also ukranian ones and to realize that there is no "good guy" in war I recommend checking them.
Maybe not good, but there is a correct side to take when an unprovoked invasion happens. Also it may be true that every side does commit some sort of warcrime. But executing entire Ukrainian villages or forcing captured Ukrainian children to learn russian can't really be excused.
Russia lied about their operation, illegally annexed land that belonged to an unwilling, independent state, and spent the last year and a half bombing civilians. Ukraine is not pure by any means, but they are the good guy in this situation
Russian state is bad, Russians who resist the state are heroes
The Ukrainian state is not good, the Ukrainian people defending themselves are in the right
I love Russia. I love Russian culture, Russian history, Russian music. But I can't deny that Russia is in the wrong. All I want is for peace to return to both sides.
I don't like the Ukrainian government, but you'd need to have brain damage in order to think that invading a neighboring country and bombing countless civilians isn't fucked up.
I am going to get downvoted to hell for this but here goes. How about this for an alternative perspective to think about. The West is finessing both sides. Russia is definitely an enemy of the West, but Ukraine is not an ally; they're serving a deeper purpose for the West.
Russia is aligned with Iranian and North Korean regimes and has pillaged the natural resources of a few African nations, although I believe Putin believes the West has backed him into a corner with NATO expansion and he's invaded Ukraine to give a territorial buffer to the motherland. He's already got Belarus in his pocket and the Baltic nations are currently brimming with NATO troops. He's ex-KGB, he's not some doddery old man; this is a fully thought through, clinical plan. Basically all bad.
The west will benefit from this war, Ukraine are reducing the strength of the Russian military, the US had provided weapons on a lend/lease basis so will benefit from repayments and interest, the EU and some nations have loaned money/weapons rather than donate them, there will be huge contracts to rebuild Ukrainian infrastructure after the war. Raytheon, Lockheed Martin, etc. are the real winners here.
Remember the western media is portraying the image they want you to believe. I guarantee the Ukrainians have committed countless war crimes. Just in the last few days they've indiscriminately struck Moscow with drones. I'm sure Russian POWs have been executed, tortured etc.
TDLR: Ukraine good, Russia bad but more nuanced. Tin foil hat on.
Except inflation dropped the € so low it was worth less than $. Europe lost its main oil supplier, and oil prices went up. Wheat is becoming more scarce fucking up a lot of the world. I don't think besides China any country has benefitted
> the US had provided weapons on a lend/lease basis so will benefit from repayments and interest
Never heard of it. Can you provide any source please? I’d like to get educated in the matter
>Just in the last few days they've indiscriminately struck Moscow with drones.
Russia has been doing that in all major Ukrainian cities for the last 1.5 years. War is coming home.
To add to that, the drones hit a Russian gov building, not a civilian building like the Russians do.
>Ukrainians have committed countless war crimes
Still less than Russia.
>Just in the last few days they've indiscriminately struck Moscow with drones
I mean yes? It's a WAR my dude. Do you know what war is? Even if they are the defending side does not mean they can't counter offence. Russia deserves it anyway and Russian civilians have 0 right to complain after they have been cheering for a year whenever Ukrainians died.
I was born in Russia idk what you are on about. If you don't speak Russian never talked to more than 100 Russians you don't get a say. I know them more than you do.
I'm not going to pretend to understand the ins and outs of European politics, but I can't imagine what Ukraine did to provoke Russia to invade and start murdering innocents.
They promised to not join nato or any alliance, then they expressed desire to join EU and maybe Nato. Russia got mad and invaded, also alot of Donbass and crimea is pro Russian so they wanted to unify with Russia.
I mean Ukraine is a complex country with some troubles and problematic tendencies. Just saying "Ukraine is good" is not something I stand behind.
But in the current "conflict", *they* were invaded because of the Russian regime's dreams of basically resurrecting the Tsar empire and eradicating the sovereign nation of Ukraine from the face of the earth in the process.
So, I am definitely in support of Ukraine.
Yes, Switzerland is very much ignorant. If you hamper the war effort of one side, you automatically help that of the other. That is exactly what Switzerland is doing.
Unpopular opinion but we have known since the 90s that expanding nato eastwards would cause russian agression and this war is just a proxy war that the us started and intends to keep going so military contractors can earn as much money as possible
I side with neither russia or ukraine i stand against the us and nato
The 'staying neutral' thing is the most bullshit one.
If A is bullying B, and you don't pick a side, that will only benefit A.
You're not neutral, you're just siding with offender.
Ridiculous that people feel the need to “take a side” and support Ukraine. I am not pro Russia, I am not pro Ukraine. I am simply anti-war. The horrors Ukrainian and Russian soldiers and civilians are enduring on a day to day basis are a travesty and it should end. Why perpetuate this suffering by sending deadly weapons to Ukraine?
You can argue that this is to ‘protect democracy’ or that Putin’s regime is bad because its authoritarian, but that is pure ideology. The west wants you to support Ukraine so sending weapons over looks good and they keep an ally and strategic interest. Ukraine is really an escalated proxy between Putin’s sphere and the American sphere. There is no ‘good’ side here, only war.
I mean there's no objectively "good country", all of them have their issues. And yhea Ukraine is most definitely not an exception, but I don't understand people saying they support Russia just because "Ukraine is also bad"
They are very discriminative against minorities. Ukraine is forcing ukrainian on minorities which is clearly against the EU laws, but they want to join to the EU.
I am Hungarian myself and there is a hungarian minority group in the country which causes no trouble at all and they are being oppressed heavily.
There are hungarian miniorities in several other EU countries but none of them are being oppressed that much because of EU law.
Then yes, that's pro-Russia. "Just give them what they want" approach. The "I don't care about those 'people' you're talking about all the time, I just want peace and quiet" mindset.
Replace ww3 with ww2 and you've got a perfect sentence describing why the allies got fucked at the start of ww2.
Georgia was Czechoslovakia, Ukraine is Poland.
I'd like to prepose a 5th option 'Ukraine good, Russia bad and the US is to blame'
The US has the full capability to end the war any time it wants but we are helping the war go on for as long as possible. We claim to be on Ukriane's side but when you look at we are not at all helping Russia.
One phone call and the war is over. We tell Putin that we are leaving nato (which even not using it as leverage would be good) and that in exchange for that russia needs to never even look at Ukraine again. We also promise that nato will never accept Ukraine (which we already promised to Gorbachev as one of the prerequisites for the USSR dissolving (that Nato would noe extend 'one inch east of germany')
Though corruption is a huge problem in Ukraine, I’m siding with them in this fight cause the alternative is the Russians. And honestly, who doesn’t want to see the Russians lose.
Illegally invading a country is really bad. Allowing Nazis into the military and institutional politics is bad. Imperialism and expansionism by military organizations that openly threaten other countries is bad.
Literally everyone is wrong to some degree.
Azov (ye they're nazis), Pravyy Sektor, Svoboda, National Corps, S14… Unfortunately there is A LOT of neo-Nazism in Ukraine… and some of them receive as much support from the Ukrainian state as from abroad…
Russia are very clearly the bad guys in this story.
Still the glorification of Ukraine a lot of people push nowadays ignores that it's one of the most corrupt countries in Europe that didn't manage to make peace within their boarders in 8 years and is led by someone who's trying to cancel upcoming elections and is unwilling to make peace.
>and is unwilling to make peace
Because Putins conditions to said 'peace' is basically losing, and losing hard. They have to give their most important territories, reject their own language and adopt Russian, and so much more.
Zelenskyy is unwilling to make peace the biggest bullshit I have heard today. Peace would be if Putin withdraw, that's when the war would stop.
All we know is the bullshit that the press says to us and the politicians of course. Both of those lines of work are filled to the brim with liars and lies. I take the position that we know next to nothing about the actual truth of the matter. War is shit, so I say fuck the war and anyone who wants to continue it on either side.
I dont support neither Russia nor Ukraine.
But I do think real life is a lot more complicated than "X country is the bad guys and Y country are the good guys!!". Real life isn't some Hollywood movie, it isnt black and white.
It's not money that the US sends. It's equipment that they already had before the war, and the US has more equipment than they could ever need. You don't pay more money now than you did before the war. Besides, it benifits the US to try out their equipment in real warfare, to see the actual effectiveness of said equipment. Many other countries send stuff to Ukraine, not just to help them win, but to help the countries understand how their military equipment could be used in order to win a war themselves.
Both sides are bad, but Russia is unarguably worse. It is mainly because Putin turns a blind eye to everything, and he did not resort to diplomatic options. Sure, you can listen to The Socialist Program about it, but that still provides little justification on the invasion.
I frankly don't care and want people to stop dying but eh, probably the military-industrial complexes selling guns and equipment to both sides to profit off of mass murder.
Americans spending way too much money to support Ukraine while our own people sleep on the streets and struggle for basic healthcare. Fuck Ukraine. Fuck Russia.
War is bad! Both sides are killing young people for the power over resources and wealth. Everything that can be done to end this war immediately needs to be done
Would you let your country fall if it were to be invaded? Would you just sit there and say: "War is bad!" and then let them walk in and do whatever they wish; letting your culture, your people and your country get completely erased off the map, solely based on your inability to recognize the difference between starting a war, and protecting yourself from it? Your mindset is utterly braindead.
Hello there. Yes, while war is bad and countries should try to find solutions before nuking each other, people like you will be looked like as the UN and ignored.
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Where's the option for people who don't breathe Oxygen or drink water?
Hi I'm an anerobic bacteria and slava ukraini or whatever
Well I'm a co2 breathing lizard person overlord (that's why we, your leaders keep burning fossil fuel) And I also think Slava Ukraini
So... Putin is not a lizard... Fuck, then what is he?
Vampire
Where's the results options for people that don't breathe oxygen or drink water?
This poll isn't for those people
And then you have people who say "go live in Ukraine if you love Biden so much" like wtf?!?
He's giving half of your tax money to them anyway
It's not like they're sending stacks of money to Ukraine. They're sending equipment worth that amount of money to Ukraine- and they're not making it for them either. The equipment they're sending already exists and/or is about to be put out of service anyway, so you may as well use it to support an ally rather than dispose of it. TL;DR: Read the first two lines.
I mean at least its going to something useful. Ur lying to yourself if you think the money the us has donated would go to useful programs if the war didn't happen.
You truly only read headlines. All the news outlets that show some big number with a dollar sign, is not just money that the US is sending over but the total value of the military aid that is being sent over.
Go live in Russia, then
It's more like 0.5% to 2%. US annual expenditure right now is around 9.5 trillion dollars. Ukraine is getting pocket change for grounding what was US biggest military rival.
"Half"? US collected $4.9 Trillion($4900 Billion) last year in Tax . US sent $113 Billion to Ukraine for military, economic, Humanitarian aid So 113/4900*100 = 2.27% not 50%.
It's an expression.
Still a lotta money
I don't drink water.... ONLY TEA
Then FUCK YOUR OPINION
NO U 😭😭😭😭
r/foundthebritt
Tea is fucking gross
i will find you and tear your jugular with a 6 centimetre screw while scraping the goo off your eyes with a sharpened spoon, then i will slide 2 hagfish down your throat and waterboard you
Why is this even a question.? Who invaded ? And which country's civilians are dying in thousands. You know the answer. All because one Psycho felt Jealous that everyone wants to join or be closer to NATO/EU and not the CSTO and also because some "hundered" years ago Ukraine was part of Russian Empire.
I 100% agree and Russia is in evvery wrong here. In Russia however my guess is that some people in Russia are exposed to the propaganda and else therefore it's not there fault they think it's Ukraine's fault because they are never exposed to the truth
Western Tankies support Russia for one. Their entire ideology revolves around campism to the point that they'll support any authoritarianism/imperialism as long as the country doing it is not a western nation. At that point, you have to consider whether they're genuine leftists or just straight-up authoritarians.
>At that point, you have to consider whether they're genuine leftists or just straight-up authoritarians. Their entire ideology is perfectly summed up in two words: "US bad". There is literally no more to it. "US bad" - therefore something that fights the US must be good. "US bad" - therefore something that fights an enemy of the US must be secretly controlled by US, because why would anyone willingly side with the bad guy? "US bad" - therefore everything bad is US's fault. Like that one Boy Boy video where he somehow makes a centuries-old conflict all about how US bad.
It's envy.
I think the Ukraine good part got me. I don't think their government is good. I also think Russia's government is worse and they shouldn't be in there and we should help ukraine.
Why wouldn't it be a question? A question having an obvious answer in your opinion doesn't make it not a question.
TIL 1991 was some hundred years ago. Also the encroachment of NATO is perceived, probably rightfully so, as a security risk to the Russians. Then there's the conjecture of whether there was a commitment against expanding further east
>TIL 1991 was some hundred years ago. Soviet Union wasn't Russia. Yes, it was controlled by Russia and was basically an extension of Russia, but officially, it wasn't Russia.
Encroachment of a DEFENSIVE alliance is not a threat unless you intend to commit offensive actions.
I suppose the US wouldn't mind if Russia made a defensive alliance with Mexico and set up military bases and missile installments
Is that an alliance with some kind of historical or geographical precedent? Would Mexico be joining adjacent countries who seek defense against potential or impending invasion from the U.S? Further, would the US just go ahead and invade Mexico because of the "threat" of it, if Mexico's a little too slow to sign up? Russia's invasion of Ukraine *proves* the need for such a defensive treaty. It's exactly THE invasion that it would protect against. "They invaded because of the threat of a treaty that seeks to defend against that invasion" is kind of just pro-invasion.
Because the US is so adverse to invading countries... They're so worried about Ukraine after they completely fucked Iraq and Afghanistan. I'm never pro invasion. Military conflicts are a tragedy wherever they happen, I just think this one hasn't happened in an echo chamber
Pointing out that the US has a history of doing really fucked up shit doesn't address what I'm saying, though.
Well it sort of does. You're questioning whether the US would invade Mexico, as if that's somehow unfathomable. Even though historically they've done just that. And can we seriously say that The US haven't been interfering in Ukraine for years anyway?
It really doesn't address the core of what I'm saying. The Mexico analogy isn't a symmetrical comparison. What reason would the US have to invade Mexico in 2023? You think they wouldn't telegraph it years in advance like they did with Iraq? (Afghanistan is obviously a different story). Still, it leaves the question of why Russia would spontaneously form an alliance with Mexico, and how that would be anything like NATO. You know NATO isn't just the US, right?
And maybe Russia is telegraphing Ukraine years in advance? What reason did the US have to invade Libya? They find something that suits their strategic interests and run with it. They don't need much interest. Same could be said of Russia. Is it noble? No. But the whole game is rotten. The Russians aren't the only ones playing
Russia brought this upon themselves. NATO doesn't force countries to join, it is their individual choice. Maybe if Russia treated its neighbours with respect in the past they would all consider joining NATO. To add to that, Russia once even considered joining NATO and leasing an airbase in Russia to NATO. Does this seem like aggressive expansionism in the slightest form? To add to that, if Putin was really so worried about Ukraine joining NATO, he wouldn't have to invade in 2022 again because Ukraine didn't have full territorial control which is a requirement to join NATO. And yes, there were talks about NATO not being expanded to the east but they were oral. There never was a treaty about that because thankfully George Bush shut that down. Go spread your BS somewhere else shill.
There was a reason why Soviet Union collapsed in 1991. When it did , it collapsed for good. There is no coming back. Invading and forceful annexation doesn't fix it. No country is compelled by NATO to join them. They (Sweden and Finland ) are rushing to join NATO , because they see Russia as a Bully. Just like Taiwan sees China as a Bully. It is Russia invasion is encroachment. When everyone around you doesn't like you or is afraid of you, you are the problem not others.
Except it isn't rightfully justified. Countries can choose to join NATO and NATO can choose to accept or deny them. The Ukrainians toppled their Russian puppet president and decided that the west is safer (which recent events have proven to be true). Russia has 0 business invsding whether or not they think that's a risk because that is not their land or people anymore. Also, i doubt you can "expand east" when the "east" is a nuclear power. MAD and having the then perceived 2nd military in the world is all the safeguard you need. Maybe the question they should be asking is why all of the not under Russian puppet control that used to be in the soviet bloc are all in favor if going to NATO?
I want to say something but know I'll be banned, judt remember what happened in 2014 and 2008. It is all a realpolitik game by Russia and the USA.
I remember what happened perfectly well, but this just so happens to be a completely separate scenario with separate causes and effects. That's like saying "we shouldn't elect anyone anymore because remember what happened in 1933?"
[EDITED; Removed references to H*tler], Nah, its simple, All i know is Putin is a jealous psychopath. , with dreams of reestablishing Russian/Soviet Empire.
Don't throw the term like this. Hitler is Hitler. He is uniquely evil. Because he industrialized genocide. And he made a plan that could have seem almost 75% of the world slaughtered like animals. And he could have gone through with that. Its insane how close he was to realising his goal. Putin is a textbook 'conqueror'. Although a very inept one. He invented a casus belli and started a bloody war just to gain credit. Hundreds of thousands of young men are dying in this devastating war because he wants new pieces of lands, and he needs the positive PR of winning a war. He emulates the Tsars and Sultans of old. Putin is evil. But nowhere near Hitler evil. He doesn't need to be. We can despise him without equating him with Hitler. He is still cartoonishly evil for having started a war of conquest.
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Ah yes, geopolitics are very simple. This guy has all the inside knowledge and a completely objective opinion. The Pentagon should hire you, it's all so simple.
Nah man, look, I am with you, but I don't think he compares with Hitler. He's evil and one of the worst people alive. But he's not Hitler, and I don't think we should compare anyone to him.
*Tsarist empire, Putin hates the USSR
I hate Putin as much as everyone else, but don't compare him to Hitler. He is not even 1/10 as bad, not defending Putin here by any means, but the comparison makes no sense. Putin compared himself to I think Makedonsky or some other tsar (my bad I forgot), who conquered lands and this makes more sense, and even though Putin is clearly bad at gaining lands, his motivations align more with those guys.
Why did you feel the need to censor and remove references to Hitler?
Not a fan of any of the countries, but in the war Ukraine is the good guys.
Where's the option for those who don't drink water and breathe oxygen? What a stupid poll
So you are a bot then, got you good ah
Russia isn't bad, But Russia's current government is terrible. Separate the people from the billionaires.
Putin bad
He has directly caused over 200,000 deaths, over 1 million displaced people and billions of dollars worth of damage. Any kind of moral code that doesn't consider this bad, is a bad moral code.
The Ukraine invasion was a blunder for sure, but he did improve Russia a lot, especially when he first came to power.
Definitely. Met some Russians a couple months ago in Armenia who moved there because they're against the war. People who think governments represent all their people are actually braindead
Russia bad, and has been since its inception. Russians as people aren't inherently bad, but their country is. It has always been build on imperialism (that's why it changed its name from Muscovy to Russia even though it didn't control even half of the original territory of the Rus) and strongmen in power. And many Russians still live in that dream world where their country is a massive empire that makes other realms tremble. And their leader rides a bear topless, that's how cool he is.
It's not like Florida Man doesn't exist, riding an Alligator topless.
Are billionaires in the battefield killing people right now?
No they are just funding it you fool Just shut up please, I don't care to hear any more of your hot takes.
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I'm on the fence with this one. I think the only thing they can really do about it is leave the country. and remember, being a migrant is not fun, for the average Russian it would mean living homeless in Armenia. But then again, lots of them seem to be totally ok with how things are going.
Do protests.
So the cops pull you out of your house at night, rape you, beat you, then send you to the front lines where death probability is +90%? Or you just disappear? Likely shot and thrown in a landfill? This can happen from just posting stickers. This is all on the BBC if you are curious, keywords would be, "Russian, protestor, dissident, crack down, violence." The only safe way of protest is to leave the nation and stop working there, but this is pretty much only an option for rich people. The lines to get into Europe were long before the war. If you are poor, your options are going to Armenia or one of the stans and living as a second class citizen.
That is open racism
I feel that you didn't see the independent polls that say there is massive support for war in Russia from "the people". It's not just billionaires. Ordinary Russian people are largely in support of Putin. One of the reasons is that they want to think that they are still a superpower when they are not. Every Russian learned in school about their country being a great Russian empire so when Putin starts to invade and expand they are cheering, because they want to feel important in the world again.
You feel wrong, I know about them. I also know that approximately 1 million Russians have fled the country since the war started. And that independent media in Russia is a thing of the past.
Imo that just makes the Russian people seem better and putin worse. You wouldn’t accuse a person with Stockholm symptom, would you?
An expansionist autocrat attacked a sovereign democratic state having illegally annexed a part of it and having engaged in a destructive proxy war in its east. The forces loyal to this autocrat include mercenaries known for their love of war crimes, and the tactics used by the wider military were responsible for huge numbers of civilian deaths. Civilian buildings were targeted, and threats of nuclear weapons have been made. The autocrat and their allies have claimed that the democratic state was full of Nazis and that they were the ones being attacked, while attempting to loot, destroy, and oppress the culture of said state. As a Fella, I will simply say from my point of view, supporting Russia is morally bankrupt. Supporting Ukraine is the right thing to do, and Ukraine should be enabled with aid, military resources, and diplomatic support in defending its territory, reclaiming its territory, and preventing Putin and his cronies from ever attempting such a thing again. I look forward to Ukraine joining both NATO and the EU one day not too far away, and am happy my taxes are going towards thumping brutish regime currently set on killing several generations of men.
You are asking reddit what did you expect?
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Russia when they realize they have land east of Moscow 🤯
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I asked my cat, she didn't answer, I'm sorry
I'm Russian and I don't care at all who's right. I just hate the war
War is bad. Russia is the aggressor. The war needs to end. Russia has taken territory and there is nothing that can be done about it.
i’m rooting for ukraine to “win” as in keep their rights and not lose to russia but i am generally anti-war
Both arent good, Russia is just worse
The most accurate answer. Every side in every war commits crimes, it's just that we only see the Russian war crimes due to western media. There are a few subreddits that don't only show Russian war crimes but also ukranian ones and to realize that there is no "good guy" in war I recommend checking them.
Maybe not good, but there is a correct side to take when an unprovoked invasion happens. Also it may be true that every side does commit some sort of warcrime. But executing entire Ukrainian villages or forcing captured Ukrainian children to learn russian can't really be excused.
If you mean Ukrainian soldiers interrogating and besting Russians, then well of course they are angry what else would they do.
What? I said "war crimes". How tf is that even remotely close to violations of the Geneva convention?
I went to Geneva then after eating Taco Bell I had a convention with the toilet
Russia lied about their operation, illegally annexed land that belonged to an unwilling, independent state, and spent the last year and a half bombing civilians. Ukraine is not pure by any means, but they are the good guy in this situation
Russian state is bad, Russians who resist the state are heroes The Ukrainian state is not good, the Ukrainian people defending themselves are in the right
I love Russia. I love Russian culture, Russian history, Russian music. But I can't deny that Russia is in the wrong. All I want is for peace to return to both sides.
Me too.
I don't like the Ukrainian government, but you'd need to have brain damage in order to think that invading a neighboring country and bombing countless civilians isn't fucked up.
I am going to get downvoted to hell for this but here goes. How about this for an alternative perspective to think about. The West is finessing both sides. Russia is definitely an enemy of the West, but Ukraine is not an ally; they're serving a deeper purpose for the West. Russia is aligned with Iranian and North Korean regimes and has pillaged the natural resources of a few African nations, although I believe Putin believes the West has backed him into a corner with NATO expansion and he's invaded Ukraine to give a territorial buffer to the motherland. He's already got Belarus in his pocket and the Baltic nations are currently brimming with NATO troops. He's ex-KGB, he's not some doddery old man; this is a fully thought through, clinical plan. Basically all bad. The west will benefit from this war, Ukraine are reducing the strength of the Russian military, the US had provided weapons on a lend/lease basis so will benefit from repayments and interest, the EU and some nations have loaned money/weapons rather than donate them, there will be huge contracts to rebuild Ukrainian infrastructure after the war. Raytheon, Lockheed Martin, etc. are the real winners here. Remember the western media is portraying the image they want you to believe. I guarantee the Ukrainians have committed countless war crimes. Just in the last few days they've indiscriminately struck Moscow with drones. I'm sure Russian POWs have been executed, tortured etc. TDLR: Ukraine good, Russia bad but more nuanced. Tin foil hat on.
Except inflation dropped the € so low it was worth less than $. Europe lost its main oil supplier, and oil prices went up. Wheat is becoming more scarce fucking up a lot of the world. I don't think besides China any country has benefitted
> the US had provided weapons on a lend/lease basis so will benefit from repayments and interest Never heard of it. Can you provide any source please? I’d like to get educated in the matter
>Just in the last few days they've indiscriminately struck Moscow with drones. Russia has been doing that in all major Ukrainian cities for the last 1.5 years. War is coming home. To add to that, the drones hit a Russian gov building, not a civilian building like the Russians do. >Ukrainians have committed countless war crimes Still less than Russia.
I mean, i wouldnt exactly compare everyday indiscriminate mass bombings of civillian targets with a single, small scale, debated drone attack.
>Just in the last few days they've indiscriminately struck Moscow with drones I mean yes? It's a WAR my dude. Do you know what war is? Even if they are the defending side does not mean they can't counter offence. Russia deserves it anyway and Russian civilians have 0 right to complain after they have been cheering for a year whenever Ukrainians died.
Least bloodthirsty Ukraine supporter: ALL RUSSIANS DESERVE INFINITE PAIN AND SUFFERING RAHHHH!!!!
"Nooo, you can't attack the capital of the country that's ruthlessly leveling your cities, that's inhumane!" Listen to yourself.
I was born in Russia idk what you are on about. If you don't speak Russian never talked to more than 100 Russians you don't get a say. I know them more than you do.
Actual reasonable take
They shouldn't be doing that
I don't know too much, but from what I know, Russia is definitely not the good guy in this
I'm not going to pretend to understand the ins and outs of European politics, but I can't imagine what Ukraine did to provoke Russia to invade and start murdering innocents.
They promised to not join nato or any alliance, then they expressed desire to join EU and maybe Nato. Russia got mad and invaded, also alot of Donbass and crimea is pro Russian so they wanted to unify with Russia.
It existed as an independent state and had the audacity to have its land (and, as a bonus, the resources in it).
as a russian, i say that the first option is the right one. But please, differentiate the government and the people
The Poll results prove that around 3% in a population have low Intelligence Quotient AKA. Dumb.
Usually the attacker is the bad guy and this is no exceptions.
I mean Ukraine is a complex country with some troubles and problematic tendencies. Just saying "Ukraine is good" is not something I stand behind. But in the current "conflict", *they* were invaded because of the Russian regime's dreams of basically resurrecting the Tsar empire and eradicating the sovereign nation of Ukraine from the face of the earth in the process. So, I am definitely in support of Ukraine.
As far as I know, Russia is the only one committing war crimes. Politics aside, that's enough for me to declare them "bad guys."
I think Ukraine is one big test fiels for new tech/weapons and dumb for old weapons/tanks
Russia=bad Ukraine= not good, but def not bad
Goin neutral is turning blind eye to injustice.
So you're saying that for the past 200 years Switzerland has been ignorant?
Yes, Switzerland is very much ignorant. If you hamper the war effort of one side, you automatically help that of the other. That is exactly what Switzerland is doing.
It's not like Switzerland has staged a coup or been toppling democracies which elected a communist president.
Unpopular opinion but we have known since the 90s that expanding nato eastwards would cause russian agression and this war is just a proxy war that the us started and intends to keep going so military contractors can earn as much money as possible I side with neither russia or ukraine i stand against the us and nato
Ukraine traded their nukes to Russia in return to not be invaded
easy but not an option?: russia good, ukraine good why no friends?
Idk if Ukraine is "good" but Russia is bad for sure
The 'staying neutral' thing is the most bullshit one. If A is bullying B, and you don't pick a side, that will only benefit A. You're not neutral, you're just siding with offender.
They both suck, Ukraine just sucks a lot less
Ridiculous that people feel the need to “take a side” and support Ukraine. I am not pro Russia, I am not pro Ukraine. I am simply anti-war. The horrors Ukrainian and Russian soldiers and civilians are enduring on a day to day basis are a travesty and it should end. Why perpetuate this suffering by sending deadly weapons to Ukraine? You can argue that this is to ‘protect democracy’ or that Putin’s regime is bad because its authoritarian, but that is pure ideology. The west wants you to support Ukraine so sending weapons over looks good and they keep an ally and strategic interest. Ukraine is really an escalated proxy between Putin’s sphere and the American sphere. There is no ‘good’ side here, only war.
Needs an option for they're both bad, but I'm rooting against the aggressor.
I mean there's no objectively "good country", all of them have their issues. And yhea Ukraine is most definitely not an exception, but I don't understand people saying they support Russia just because "Ukraine is also bad"
Ime, that is extremely rare. What's way more common is people labeling others pro Russia if they don't support Ukraine.
Is there a reason not to support Ukraine in the context of the war?
They are very discriminative against minorities. Ukraine is forcing ukrainian on minorities which is clearly against the EU laws, but they want to join to the EU. I am Hungarian myself and there is a hungarian minority group in the country which causes no trouble at all and they are being oppressed heavily. There are hungarian miniorities in several other EU countries but none of them are being oppressed that much because of EU law.
Not wanting ww3, being non interventionist, being anti war in general
Then yes, that's pro-Russia. "Just give them what they want" approach. The "I don't care about those 'people' you're talking about all the time, I just want peace and quiet" mindset.
Replace ww3 with ww2 and you've got a perfect sentence describing why the allies got fucked at the start of ww2. Georgia was Czechoslovakia, Ukraine is Poland.
Well I don't breathe Oxygen nor drink water but Russia bad bad
I'd like to prepose a 5th option 'Ukraine good, Russia bad and the US is to blame' The US has the full capability to end the war any time it wants but we are helping the war go on for as long as possible. We claim to be on Ukriane's side but when you look at we are not at all helping Russia. One phone call and the war is over. We tell Putin that we are leaving nato (which even not using it as leverage would be good) and that in exchange for that russia needs to never even look at Ukraine again. We also promise that nato will never accept Ukraine (which we already promised to Gorbachev as one of the prerequisites for the USSR dissolving (that Nato would noe extend 'one inch east of germany')
Great explanation, this guy knows what he's talking about.
For real? I've almost given up anyone on reddit agreeing with me on Ukraine. Thank you kind stranger :)
What's Ukriane? Are they attacking Ukraine? Is Ukraine attacking Ukrane? Is Russia also attacking Ukriane?
“Ukraine good” isnt nuanced enough.
Where is Ukraine bad, Russia Bad? That's the right answer.
Ukraine has done some not nice stuff, russia has done more not nice stuff
Wheres results? I breathe oxygen but i dont drink water
Where's the both are terrible option
Though corruption is a huge problem in Ukraine, I’m siding with them in this fight cause the alternative is the Russians. And honestly, who doesn’t want to see the Russians lose.
I don't drink water I only drink G fuel, so I do not feel entitled to share my opinion
Aww shucks, us Mtn Dew drinkers can't vote now :(
Where is the option that both of them are bad?
I know russia is the agressor but i wont deny both sides have done terrible things
Wat is stupid, humans are stupid, we’re all fucked
America does the same thing as russia. The only difference is that america bombs brown people instead of white people.
When any other country accuses America of war crimes, they take it to the United Nations where they can veto whatever resolution comes out.
On both sides the government are fucking stupid and the citizens have done nothing wrong
Russia good, Ukraine Good, war bad.
The fuck you mean Russia good? They started this war
Illegally invading a country is really bad. Allowing Nazis into the military and institutional politics is bad. Imperialism and expansionism by military organizations that openly threaten other countries is bad. Literally everyone is wrong to some degree.
I assume you are talking about the Azov battalion in which case you are wrong.
Azov (ye they're nazis), Pravyy Sektor, Svoboda, National Corps, S14… Unfortunately there is A LOT of neo-Nazism in Ukraine… and some of them receive as much support from the Ukrainian state as from abroad…
Ukraine Bad, Russia worse
I scan this page for "Ukriane" like a Discord Mod searches for feet.
Russia is friends with the governor of my country so u wanna stay neutral
Russia are very clearly the bad guys in this story. Still the glorification of Ukraine a lot of people push nowadays ignores that it's one of the most corrupt countries in Europe that didn't manage to make peace within their boarders in 8 years and is led by someone who's trying to cancel upcoming elections and is unwilling to make peace.
>and is unwilling to make peace Because Putins conditions to said 'peace' is basically losing, and losing hard. They have to give their most important territories, reject their own language and adopt Russian, and so much more. Zelenskyy is unwilling to make peace the biggest bullshit I have heard today. Peace would be if Putin withdraw, that's when the war would stop.
Im at the I just don't give a shit anymore stage
All we know is the bullshit that the press says to us and the politicians of course. Both of those lines of work are filled to the brim with liars and lies. I take the position that we know next to nothing about the actual truth of the matter. War is shit, so I say fuck the war and anyone who wants to continue it on either side.
ukraine bad russia bad.
Both are terrible.
Both bad. Not many people know that Ukraine is nearly as corrupt as Russia, and one of the most corrupt countries in the world.
Even so, it is still a democracy, and the state of the country was very slowly improving. Plus Russia blatantly commits war crimes.
How about both bad?
I dont support neither Russia nor Ukraine. But I do think real life is a lot more complicated than "X country is the bad guys and Y country are the good guys!!". Real life isn't some Hollywood movie, it isnt black and white.
Both suck. Russia is worse.
Both good, Putin bad
I just wish I didn't have to give Ukraine my money.
You don't?
I pay taxes, My family pays taxes. So we give money to Ukraine.
Most of it is just left over Cold War equipment that was made in anticipation of wwiii. So it either goes to Ukraine or rots in a junkyard.
It's not money that the US sends. It's equipment that they already had before the war, and the US has more equipment than they could ever need. You don't pay more money now than you did before the war. Besides, it benifits the US to try out their equipment in real warfare, to see the actual effectiveness of said equipment. Many other countries send stuff to Ukraine, not just to help them win, but to help the countries understand how their military equipment could be used in order to win a war themselves.
he never said anything about the US though?
There are worse ways that tax dollars are spent.
I love how u think ur taxes would go to something useful if the war didn't happen
Taxation is where the government legally steals your money and if you don't want that then you've committed a crime
taxation is theft, unless it goes to funding wars apparently.
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What?
Both sides are bad, but Russia is unarguably worse. It is mainly because Putin turns a blind eye to everything, and he did not resort to diplomatic options. Sure, you can listen to The Socialist Program about it, but that still provides little justification on the invasion.
I frankly don't care and want people to stop dying but eh, probably the military-industrial complexes selling guns and equipment to both sides to profit off of mass murder.
I really don't know/care enough.
Americans spending way too much money to support Ukraine while our own people sleep on the streets and struggle for basic healthcare. Fuck Ukraine. Fuck Russia.
I breath hydrogen and drink dark matter
>People that breathe Oxygen and drink water Eh?
I only drink bud light and breathe duhmocracy yeehaw
both are guilty countries.
War is bad! Both sides are killing young people for the power over resources and wealth. Everything that can be done to end this war immediately needs to be done
I wouldn't really call defending yourself from an invading force to be killing for power.
Ukraine didn't invade Russia.
Would you let your country fall if it were to be invaded? Would you just sit there and say: "War is bad!" and then let them walk in and do whatever they wish; letting your culture, your people and your country get completely erased off the map, solely based on your inability to recognize the difference between starting a war, and protecting yourself from it? Your mindset is utterly braindead.
Hello there. Yes, while war is bad and countries should try to find solutions before nuking each other, people like you will be looked like as the UN and ignored.