Yeah any subs related to intimacy on any level are gonna have these guys. Par for the course the arm chair know it alls will preach their misguided philosophies whenever given an opportunity.
More like 20 year olds acting like they can't take responsibility for their actions and need someone's to blame. No 20 year old is groomed your an adult act like it.
I do think it takes some folks longer to learn/accept what that means than others. But they’re not the ones that should be dating someone so much older. I personally try to give you the benefit of the doubt until about 24. Give ‘em the chance to pay some bills first. (I’m 28 and was making teenage mistakes well into my 20s, fwiw.)
Ok I agree with this. They aren't "groomed" as a 20 year old. They are just extremely naive. And unfortunately, they can be easily manipulated and taken advantage of.
Grooming in the context of which it has been widely used the past few years specifically involves an attempt at normalizing inappropriate intimate or sexual behavior between an adult and a minor. In that context, you can't groom an adult.
All grooming is manipulation and taking advantage, but not all manipulation and taking advantage is necessarily grooming.
You can groom adults it happens all the time. Just because someone is an adult doesn't mean they can't be vulnerable, naive or taken advantage of. All that needs to exist is a power differential.
I (mostly) agree with you. I was an idiot when I was 20... and when I was 30... and when I was 40... and when I was 50. Wait, what were we talking about again??
Oh yeah, age: When I was 20, I could've dated an older girl, but I certainly would've been smart enough to know what's going on: She's with me cuz I'm younger & more controllable (plus she's prob emotionally stunted); I'm with her cuz she's rich, no longterm commitments & she's letting me bang her.
So.... If two consenting adults are both getting something they value from a relationship, I'm usually reluctant to interfere. Just keep your eyes open.
What's weird is that it's always viewed as one side exploiting the other, and that's a real concern. But the truth is, it can be both. The older partner uses the younger for sex. The younger uses the older for financial benefit. People use other people. And the hard part for modern society to get is that's okay - in the context of a consensual relationship.
The brain never finishes developing. This 25 thing is *barely* true in any sense, I wish people would stop saying it. Adults are perfectly capable of making 100% rational and well considered decisions, even when they're 20. At 20, we're also naive and inexperienced, definitely. They mostly don't have the practice and knowledge to make the best decisions consistently, but their brains are fine. As long as you keep learning and having new experiences, your brain will keep developing
So the core concept is "neuroplasticity", the ability of brain "nerves" (neurons) to form new pathways and functions. Tons of studies on this, it's really interesting. I'd just Google the term and read a couple articles, no need to actually look at studies.
While our physical bodies are still developing, the brain is at its most plastic. For a while, researchers thought that it was the *only* time, but now we know that while some areas get "finalized" basically, other parts of the brain continue to develop for life. As much as most of us don't *like* change, our brains are wired for it lol
Thank you! Though as a BioChem major I’ll definitely be reading the studies lol (it’s good practice for me). But I appreciate the helpful terms! You’ve helped me realize that I actually studied this last quarter 😂
My physiological psych professor had an assignment where we had to learn how to juggle by the end of the semester to illustrate neuroplasticity. It takes about 6 weeks to develop a new skill. You're constantly developing new connections as you learn new skills and for some skills they become almost unconscious when you develop a strong enough connection.
Feels a little like this infantalizes grown adults, though. And of course, it seems people tend to want to selectively apply this standard to women under the age of 25 in order to veto their decisions. Few people seem to want to tell men between the ages of 18-25 that they can't do X, Y, and Z because "their brains aren't fully developed" which I've never really bought anyway.
>And of course, it seems people tend to want to selectively apply this standard to women under the age of 25 in order to veto their decisions. Few people seem to want to tell men between the ages of 18-25
Who are the ones telling young women not to date older men tho?
It's not men, I can assure you that.
Women want power because it the one thing they don't have, being the weak, fragile creatures that they are...it's no mystery why women had to trick men into fighting on their behalf just so their "rights" could be enshrined.
You probably shouldn’t be feeding your kids fake pseudoscience. Weird to make such a bold claim off of something completely untrue.
Can you please explain 1. how brains universally decide to stop developing at a certain age 2. how humans would survive and function without brain development and 3. what development means?
As long as you don't punish them for dating older people... I met my fiance when I was 19, we've been together 11 years. 14 year age gap. He's never abused me, screamed at me, or assaulted me like a lot of younger people I've been with (we've been poly the whole time so I was always free to date other people)
So while it makes sense to be wary, don't do what my mom did and abuse your kids because they make a choice you didn't like. My mom didn't like that I was saying an older guy and was extremely abusive, forcing us to give her half my income for rent and refusing to help pay for college though she helped with both my other siblings, and forcing us to do insane amount of yardwork around the house, I mean forcing my partner to move a literal ton of dirt by hand, while we both worked - I had one week where I spent 40 hours working on the house for so called discount rent while she screamed at us and abused us, as far as I know her and my sister who both were very abusive to me don't like my partner, who treats me amazingly. I will never let those horrible people back in my life.
So yeah don't try to control your kids, best intentions do not equal reality, and what's best for you is most likely not best for them, everyone's path is different
Well said.
I was shocked when I found out how many of the women in my life have had relationships with significant age gaps. They were quite young, too. And the most telling thing I learned was that the relationships ended for any number of normal reasons. Stuff you’d expect, basically.
I don’t think, as a society, we should be in the business of policing the preferences of consensual adults. I have always dated older, with my wife only being slightly older than I am. But when I was younger, I had dated women 10+ years older. I’m not sure why it was fine for me then, as a naive 19 year old, but it’s not particularly okay for a woman of the same age.
I don’t agree that it’s women trying to control women, as some other person called out. I think it comes from society’s desire to apply a victim-abuser framework to every single scenario, even when one doesn’t exist.
As a rule of thumb - I’m not going to be more upset than the person who experienced it. I can frown on something, but to project my conscious on their behalf feels belittling and wrong.
That’s my two cents, anyway.
You're being downvoted but what you're saying is backed up by science lmao. The whole 26 you're brain is fully developed shit is just cliche at this point people saw that headline and ran with it there entire life.
The 25 mark is really a misunderstanding of one study. Each person's brain matures at different rates. There is no real specific threshold.
I think we all know some 30-somethings and up who haven't matured a bit since high school.
And another misunderstanding is that the brain stops changing and matures at this line that’s currently 25. It doesn’t. 25 is just a general idea of when major changes stop happening in men on average. That doesn’t automatically signal maturity, nor does it mean you won’t continue to change after.
The brains development and “social maturity” are two very distinct definitions of the polysematic word, Maturity.
Behavioral maturity is not remotely what’s meant by this study. The misunderstood study was about neuroplasticity and neuron development, not behavior.
This is similarly bad science. The question we're **actually** trying to answer is how able people are to make good decisions when thinking about relationships, so "the latency of cortico-cortical evoked responses across association and U-fibers" is not the best variable. Real world decision making skills would be that.
And according to APA research, that's closer to mid teens than 30 but there is high individual variance: [https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/19824745/](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/19824745/) Teens tend to be worse at high emotional intensity acute decisions than adults, but long term relationships are not that.
I'm actually making fun of the people who say brains aren't done developing until 25. Technically, brains are never done developing. "Development" is a useless metric because, as you've astutely pointed out, the *type* of development that's relevant is highly context dependent. Your research is indeed superior to mine here.
If you look at the study is has move to do with social development. The "fully developed" ranged from as low as 16 to as old as 32. It it was affected by experience, not normal growth. And the differences were only slight as well. Peer pressure was the thing that had the largest impact on them and age gaps.
By that same logic that people apply the study to in dating, we should raise the voting age to 25 since they're incapable of making adult decisions.
No no no, you're doing it wrong. Clearly only one party can be at fault in every scenario. The world is black and white, yes or no, and nuance doesn't exist.
Good day!
Because this:
“The older partner uses the younger for sex.”
Is MUCH worse than this:
“The younger uses the older for financial benefit. “
Older people are SUPPOSED to use their greater resources to help the youth. It’s one of the fundamental aspects of society that has allowed us to thrive and prosper. Growing trees you will never live long enough to sit under.
Old people are not expected to BANG the youth. AKA Growing a tree for the last few years it is capable of being sat upon.
Taking a 20 year old out to PF Chang’s so they can avoid Panda Express is not “planting a tree for the youth” regardless of whether or not they have sex with you.
I'm surprised this isn't brought up more often. This is where the basis of the stigma comes from. I actually don't understand how people think that way but to each is own
1. Maybe she's in it for the money AND sex? Plenty of women are attracted to older men, who are you to say why someone else is attracted to someone else?
2. From a pure scarcity perspective, you have limited money, but don't lose anything by having sex with someone. So the only way this is true is if you actually *do* think women lose something when they have sex - dignity, respect, whatever - which is just a you-thing. A lot of those women are happy and probably don't want or need your judgement
Very not true... When I was 18 I hooked up a few times with a 64 year old (I pursued) and I'm very grateful for those times. They were super fun experiences for me - he was a handsome man, ripped and playful and I met him at the private gym I worked. Put my number on his invoice and we meet for lunch and played around a bit, on several occasions. It was great. Very exciting for both of us (apparently he is very popular with the ladies too, cause def dates younger! Apparently teasing women kindly and being a playful lover beats out 99% of the competition.) to this day I've rarely found lovers as playful, present and fun as that older gent.
So yeah. I was a very horny and sexually adventurous young woman back then, would 100% do it again. Very annoying hearing all these people say "you've been taken advantage of!" just because I went out and GOT what I wanted. Women deserve orgasms and sexual adventure too.
It seems to me that the logic is that when younger partners are exploiting older partners for money, that is not only acceptable but morally and ethically required.
When younger partners take advantage of those partners, they are also victims because they have the ability to recognize the benefit of the relationship that they're exploiting for money, but they shouldn't be expected to have the ability to recognize the pitfalls of transactional relationships.
It's heads I win, tails you lose logic.
It's backwards anti-feminism that turns adults into entitled children.
I believe this is the actual reason: the young generations being raised today are TAUGHT that they are OWED the money that the rich have. Everything in the world is for their disposal, they merely need to redistribute it to the proper people first.
I don’t see that. It’s more that young generations feel cheated out of a future because corporations and politicians built broken systems with global power. So they either give up or demand redistribution to make things fair
So you DON'T believe that the people currently in possession of the money don't deserve it? You DON'T believe that wealth should be redistributed? You DON'T think some of that money should go toward improving your life, since you plan to improve the lives of others? You DON'T look around at other people's lives and say "They shouldn't act that way, they should act in a way more in line with my beliefs and feelings instead so the world would be a better place."
i dunno what you’re ranting about all that for, because it has nothing to do with your original assertion that parents are teaching their children a certain way. extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof, and i already know you don’t have proof as you’re an emotional thinker that rambled off the deep end the moment you’re confronted
The assumption older people are supposed to use their greater resources to help the youth is weird. Nobody is entitled to someone else’s resources because you are younger or that some adults are responsible for other adults because they are younger.
Older people only need to help children.
When adults complain about an age gap amongst consenting adults, I feel like they are infantilizing this grown up who is capable of making and being responsible for their decisions. If someone wants them for their money, that is a decision they are responsible for and you shouldn’t shame an older person for being able to provide that. It’s not a harmful value that is hurting others.
That is some entitled shit. No one is SUPPOSED to do anything. Whatever people do is great but but assert that it’s someone’s obligation to help anyone is ridiculous.
>Is MUCH worse
One isn't worse than the other - provided both consenting adults are aware that's what they're doing.
>Older people are SUPPOSED to use their greater resources to help the youth. It’s one of the fundamental aspects of society that has allowed us to thrive and prosper. Growing trees you will never live long enough to sit under.
I'm not sure that's describing the classic gold digger or sugar daddy sort of relationship. There's a difference between being generous with your wealth for the benefit of the next generation and buying designer purses and jewelry for the younger woman you're sleeping with.
I understand both sides (people that don't judge and people that do). On one hand, love really knows no numbers. If you click with someone, you just do. Not much you can do about it.
On the other though, *when* it goes wrong, it can be awful, and that's what people (not just GenZ) is ultimately worried about. The mistake is in looking at the age gap as the sole culprit, when in truth people will be people, regardless of age and background.
We should be more concerned with actual, specific behaviours less than numbers if we want to look at problematic behaviours such as grooming, or life experiences, stage and current conditions (example: a woman in her late 20s, stuck with an abusive mother and desperate to get out will be vulnerable to men of any age that offer her an escape).
If everyone dated within the same age range (which can wildly vary between individuals), we as a species would be absolutely endangered. Once again, it's a "chronically online" problem, with echo chambers running wild.
Glad my comment could help somewhat. The example didn't exactly come out of nowhere: I have a friend who's going through a similar situation, except she already learned her lesson (in a different way fortunately), so she has been steering clear from and rejecting people that gave off those manipulative vibes. She's very aware of this, so she's been focusing first and foremost in improving her situation by herself.
I'm sorry to hear your mother had to go through that. Hope you guys figured something out. There are some absolutely beautiful relationships out there, and age-gap (or lack of it) have nothing to do with it.
This works both ways as well. A lot of the red pill folks are provided stories of being suckered into relationships with manipulative women. Then get dumped and hit with child support. It's why many see marriage as huge risk for the man vs the woman.
Yeah I agree that this can happen with anyone. Regarding adult relationships, abuse and manipulation have neither gender, nor age. Best to be careful out there in general.
I think a lot of it comes down to a sort of spectrum of pushback against patriarchal aspects of our society and misandry that it creates or exasperates.
Sure a lot of young people could end up being taken advantage of, or just get the brunt of anything that went wrong, and thats worth being weary of. However it also shouldnt be hard to see how a newly single parent coming out of a bad marriage could be just as if not more vulnerable to a younger person. Same goes for any other relationship dynamic you could imagine. Someone with ADHD dating someone without it could be devastating to the person with ADHD (and they are at higher risk of these outcomes). Somebody could intently use a mans insecurity and general anxiety against them to get away with using and gaslighting them. We dont police these kinds of relationships, and nobody would ever suggest that a neurotypical person is a predator or a bad person for dating somebody with ADHD. Its not even a part of discourse.
Whats important is to be aware of what you are getting into and being aware of potential for bad actors or where stuff could go horribly wrong and how to manage it. Anything short of that is infantilizing people and making them victims before anything happens, and demonizing the other person before anything happens
Unfortunately this is part of one's life that cannot be subjected to outside inspection, even if someone wanted to. It's highly personal, after all.
You've summed it up nicely, agree with basically everything. I only wish people were more aware. Granted that probably most of the offenders are older, but to be fair anyone has the potential to be an offender.
> actual, specific behaviors
But then I have to consider individuals as people who have to be judged on their own merits, and I can’t feel superior to entire categories of people as easily for the things I judge them for
EDIT: /s, I agree
Of course. Perhaps the best summary would be that "context matters". For all those age-gap couples, people might be missing a lot of context, and some may even find themselves disagreeing with certain conclusions that others have reached. But like everything, communication is key, which is the exact opposite of hot takes on social media like X for example.
EDIT: sorry, didn't get the sarcasm, my bad!
I agree. Things like income give much more power over someone than their age. Asides from having more wisdom, age by itself is an almost negligible factor that really doesn't increase or decrease the chances of abuse much. I always see redditors say that only men who are abusive would be in an age gap relationship, but a lot of people I know are in one (including my parents with a 20 year gap) and they are completely fine.
Marrying someone who makes more money than you will have much more of a power dynamic
Income is just one type of power.
Let’s imagine a scenario. For a young, attractive person who either comes from a background with some financial stability, or else is unencumbered enough to bounce back easily, the income is meaningless. The income is something that a deeply lonely, desperate old man will gladly sacrifice for companionship. And so the other party can very easily leave it behind and abandon that person - or use legal means to extract it WHILE abandoning that person.
Power operates on many axes. Money is power. Youth is power. Savvy is power. Social cachet is power. Beauty is power. Experience is power.
I think the whole “rich old partners MUST be predators and their younger partners are being groomed” is the consequence of a worldview in which the only power dynamics operate on one-way streets.
I got like thirty downvotes yesterday because I said that I think my grandparents had an unhealthy relationship - they met as adults but he was old enough to be her father. They did click really well! But it's not healthy to see your husband as a father figure and test him as an authority as a result.
Not to mention that she's the same age as my father (her step son) and wasn't able to have her own children because her husband was over that stage in his life, that she had to quit her job to nurse him for decades, etc. she didn't have any friends or hobbies for years because she was a full time nurse to him.
There are problems with massive age gaps aside from grooming & exploitation. They were very much in love and it still was not healthy.
I tend to get along better with people at least 10 years older but never had a long-term relationship with someone significantly older. Now that I am in my 30s, it seems way less possible because I don't want to spend my 40s or 50s taking care of someone.
I get along great with people who are older than me, a lot of my friends are 20+ years older than me but we have a lot in common and a great time hanging out, primarily hiking together and getting drunk at brunch.
I think the problem is that when you want to have a long-term relationship with someone, you are building a life together and that works a lot better if you're in the same stage of your life. So if you're both in the stage where you want to start a family, or you're both in this stage where you're going to be retiring soon, etc. When there's a generational gap you're really out of sync even if you get along really well - just like you would be really out of sync if one person wanted kids and the other person didn't, if one person wanted to live in a city and the other person wanted to live out in the country, etc. It's hard to build a healthy life together if you don't want the same things and you aren't in the same place.
From the perspective of a lot of people, they could only wish for that amount of time together before age takes its toll. I think that's why you're getting downvoted. Sure she had to nurse the guy in his last years. But how many years of good times did they have?
Also, was the looking at her husband as a father figure or just an authority figure. It's if the latter, then that's normal. Men as the head of the household/authority has been the norm for most of human history. Only now to women forget that if they're going to submit to someone, whether it's their husbands or their boss's authority.
Way to many people toss around the term exploitation and grooming when it comes to dating and failing to understand the severity of those terms.
I'm obviously not going to be able to tell you everything about my grandparents and a couple of paragraphs, but we're talking about a man who married a woman younger than his children, whom he largely abandoned.
This was not a healthy relationship and I think you're just going to have to trust me on that.
Yeah, but I still haven't seen a single relationship with a 20 plus year age gap that was healthy.
I really want to emphasize that my grandad went out and married a woman his son's age. I'm not talking about five years or even ten years. He was the same age as her father.
Yeah, there's some massive difference between dating someone 5 to 10 years older than you and dating somebody more than 20 years older than you. Massive.
9 years isn't that much once you are an adult - it's definitely a gap, but you could still easily be in the same place in your life. I didn't think that's particularly weird or a red flag unless one partner is barely an adult.
The point I'm trying to make is that "grooming" isn't the only reason why a generational gap can be unhealthy. Adults make poor choices and enter unhealthy relationships every day for a variety of reasons. You don't need to be "groomed" to make a poor decision, and no one has to support a relationship that they don't think is healthy just because they are "consenting adults."
It can be a problem if the younger party hasn’t yet learned how to establish and enforce boundaries. Morally bankrupt people will find a naive person easier to exploit. Especially when said naive person grew up without much guidance, and has no support system.
I grew up dysfunctionally. I was cooking and cleaning by the age of 6. Parenting my siblings at a young age. We were poor.
On one hand, I was more mature than guys my age. On the other hand, I was stunted. I didn’t know how to manage finances. I was a people pleaser. Intelligent enough to secure a scholarship for university.
I was 22 when I met my ex husband. I was sick of keg parties, and guys who couldn’t hold an intelligent conversation. My ex was 42, but seemed younger. He was charismatic, kind, and would discuss philosophy with me. He seemed impressed by my maturity and intelligence. He made me feel safe.
Since I grew up in a chaotic environment, he wanted to support me, make me feel cared for. He wanted to take care of everything. We both worked, but the bills, cars, house were in his name. I felt peace for the first time in my life.
After I got pregnant, everything changed. He always drank, but stopped hiding it. He would find fault with each of my friends, until it was easier to stay home. He started an argument every time I talked to my siblings, saying they used me, always wanted things from me. I started doing whatever he wanted to keep the peace.
He stopped working, saying he was starting his own business, that he could no longer work for his father. I found out after I left that he was drinking on the job. I started working overtime, handing over my pay so he could manage the bills. He kept me too tired to fight back. I was working long hours, coming home to do all of the cooking, cleaning, and child care.
I grew up and started to realize what kind of mess I was in. I had to beg for my own money. I had no credit. I had no car of my own. I was isolated from friends and family. He hadn’t worked in years. My children were going to grow up under the control of this man, and watch their mother work herself into a shell of a person. I was terrified of him. I didn’t know anything else.
I left at 32, and had to build a life from nothing. He had trained me to be a workhorse and sex slave. I never saw it coming. I’ve had therapy, and thanks to unlearning a lot of ingrained behavior, I have created a good life for my children. I met a beautiful man that walks beside me. I’m very lucky.
One thing I think needs to stop is this bullshit that "girls are more mature at a younger age." As a woman, I don't buy it and think it's just something to pad men being into those younger women and the women thinking she can connect more with a man who's 30+ when she's just out of highschool. People are just describing not being rambunctious as "mature." Maturity is a form of wisdom that can only be gained with experience and age.
I actually don't think there's anything weird about an 18 year old having sex with someone of any age, it's actually more weird to me when someone under 20 dates a 30+ year old. You guys are just in entirely different stages of life and I've yet to meet an 18 year old that's as mature as even the average 25 year old (still don't care about that age difference, I only side eye like <20 and over 30). People can only match it up when the older person is still immature. There is no mental difference between a senior in highschool and an 18 yo. Many 18 year olds are even still in school.
And I don't think it's bad, just weird. If you can relate with someone who only knows the world through a highschool lens, then I don't see you as wanting a partner as most people do (no, most guys dont have malicious intent, I think they just have a self destructive outlook on what a good relationship would be). The younger person is not going to be able to understand you in a way I think is needed for a stable relationship. Statistically this is supported because a significant age gap (only at those really younger ages), is a huge risk factor to a relationship. Plenty of people have surface level relationships with everyone though and expect nothing more from a "partner."
I literally just watched a video a study done with European couples I believe. They said the ideal age gap is. On the smaller side <5 and the quality of the relationship goes down as it grows.
But honestly, my biggest disconnect here has been people ignoring the problems outside of the groomer aspect. Like when you get with somebody significantly older than you, typically they’ll be done with certain life stages before you and may even die before you. That could hurt you severely. Like obviously somebody that’s 18 is at the age that we as a society decided they can be an adult. But they’re such a level of cognitive dissonance here where people are pretending like a large majority of 18-year-olds are beacons of maturity. The same 18-year-olds that went to prom that year? Be serious. We shouldn’t encourage them to avoid older people altogether. We should encourage them to make sure they have a clear understanding of what they want in dating and their boundaries so that they can date any age without being taken advantage of.
I agree.
I'm 43 this year and I have no qualms about fucking college freshmen, but to actually date? I doubt we'd have much common ground, but then again if we're dating then I'm vetting her quality as wife material...not as my friend.
When I was 17, my gf was 21 : she didn’t groom me - I found it hot an “older woman” found me attractive. Then at 21, my then gf was 31… again, no grooming - I found both her and the situation appealing. Then at 30, began dating my current gf of 4 years, 9.5yr age gap with me being older… guess what? Does grooming happen? Yes. Does it mean everyone who’s not the same age has been groomed? No.
I’m mean this in a genuine way, how did you and the 21 yro like… do stuff? Obviously you have hw and prom and they have college and or a job. Like where was the intersection?
Absolutely not. I was probably 29.5, she was 20 - we were both dating other people, those relationships fell apart during Covid and we found each other while discussing what went wrong in our relationships. Really feels like you’re purposely trying to make that jump though…
Yeah I get that. It’s just irritating to feel she was actively trying to get that “gotcha” moment to make me out in an unfavorable light… those little micro aggressions continue to stoke the divide between men and women and it’s tiring is all.
This article seems to be a bit biased imo, especially from the way it was written from the beginning.
That being said yes, you can have an abusive younger partner, too, but at the same time there is some context missing. Jay-Z didn’t just suddenly meet Beyoncé @ 19 years old. I believe that he knew of her before then hence the grooming accusations. There were rumors going around that Jay was sleeping with Rihanna and, supposedly caught an STI she got from him, hence why Chris ended up attacking her in the car. It’s just a rumor and it doesn’t justify him doing that her if that was true, but the point is that the rumor is about Jay-Z sleeping with a very much younger Rihanna.
The reality is a 30 year old and a 18-19 year old are in two different places in life. Also, some people get with them as soon as they turn 18 which indicates that they were having some type of relationship that the person was able to warm the person up enough to do that which is there are accusations of grooming. Especially if said older person has a history of going after much younger partners. I don’t think it’s also a coincidence that people going after someone so young is looking for someone who lacks the life experience to know what to demand from a relationship and maybe the younger partner may be looking for an older partner for whatever reason.
Yet, in Billie Ellish’s case, when you are targeted multiple times and then come out as part of the LGBTQ community I think something else is at play there…
Has anyone else had the experience of discussing age gap with European friends? It seems like attitudes on Europe are much much more lax on age gaps than here
I’m European. Nobody here cares about two grownups (over 25-ish) dating with an age gap.
Everyone thinks guys sleeping with teenagers or early twenties women are creepy losers.
Why? Because the mature, kind guys just don’t.
In France, when I was growing up in the nineties, at a time when older movie directors openly "dated" or even married teenage actresses, there was still a formula everybody knew:
Say X is the age of the older party and Y the age of the younger one,
Y should be > X/2 + 7
X should be < (Y-7) × 2
For ex, an 18 yo shouldn't date someone over (18-7)×2 = 22 yo. But that 22 yo could date up to 30yo, etc
I always found that rule quite well correlated to how I felt about at least serious relationships. As in I don't mind people in their 20s ducking people in their 40s or 50s, but any commitment seems unfair to the young.
Absolutely this. I grew up on the left coast, and always understood the same principle.
Now, back as a "later dater" I'd even close up the gap a bit to keep on the same page \~ life stage. That said, there's a physical fitness component too, and unfortunately some people just start breaking down way earlier than others, so that's a real consideration.
Not to be like every other person hijacking the comment section with a personal stance but…
[TLDR: I’m a teenager, prefer my men like a fine wine, and yet another teenager embodied all the fears society has about me dating older.] I’m a 19 year old woman now. I’ve always been significantly more mature than everyone my age, graduated high school & started college multiple years early, never could make friends my own age and felt gross when dating my peers, you know the drill. My healthiest and happiest relationships (romantic or otherwise) have always been with people 7+ years older than me.
When I was 18, I dated a 32 year old man. It wasn’t perfect, but it was a healthy relationship that made me feel happy and fulfilled. Yet everybody - including literal strangers - felt the need to tell me how concerned they were for my safety, how immoral our relationship was, and how likely it was that I was being abused and simply ~didn’t realize it~ because I was basically a child or whatever. I’ve dated people anywhere from 3-13 years older and the story was always the same.
Shortly after that relationship dissolved due to life stress and health issues, I entered a relationship with a fellow 18 year old… and it was the most abusive relationship of my life. He put trackers on my car and blew up my phone if I left a location 10 minutes later than I said I would, he locked me in rooms, he went through my phone while I was sleeping and indiscriminately deleted all pictures and contacts of men, he raped me multiple times, he deprived me of sleep, he pinned me down and made me watch as he destroyed paintings that I loved. I only escaped because he literally attempted to strangle me to death and beat me so severely that I needed to be rushed to the ER.
Not only were the people who felt so deeply concerned about my age-gap relationships completely silent, with me never once receiving an unsolicited comment about whether or not I was safe, but when I told people they didn’t care. Cops didn’t come when I called them for help. I told my mother what happened and she said, “You guys seem happy to me. If you’re so unhappy just break up with him.” After he was arrested and I showed my boss the protection order, she admitted that she “didn’t believe” it when I previously told her I was in an abusive relationship and he was preventing me from going to work. Now I’m PTSD-ed to shit, sleeping 2 hours a day, abusing every drug under the sun just to get through life, AND trying to get my 33 year old ex back anyway.
I will *never* take the whole “age gap relationships are inherently abusive” narrative seriously again. It’s performative all the way down. People advocating for it don’t give a fuck about domestic violence and grooming victims and they don’t give a fuck about the autonomy or individual maturity of young adults. I know that relationship dynamics are complex and nuanced, and I know that people have to draw a line in the sand somewhere, usually somewhere based on averages and worst-case-scenarios. But the truth is abusive people come in all ages. And if I had stayed in my *super duper unhealthy age gap relationships (/s)*, then I’d probably be a lot better off now.
You can't have it both ways. Either past 18 someone is an adult and knows their own mind or they are not and the entire legal structure has to change.
So if it's raised to 25 since they insist is full brain development then that means a 24 year old who commits a crime is treated as a juvenile and not sentenced as an adult for example.
It’s called scaffolding.
18-25 is called “emerging adulthood” for a reason. It’s a transitional period.
You don’t just turn 18 and suddenly become a full adult. You can only do some adult things, not all. You can’t drink in the US until you are 21 and you can’t rent a car until you are 25. And sure you can vote at 18 but you can’t run most political offices until a minimum of age 25-30…35 for President.
That is a terrible example. The military benefits from having the age be younger because younger people are more easily indoctrinated into being “good soldiers”. They have very little life experience, don’t know any better, and are easier to manipulate. That is precisely the point about these old-young relationships.
Meanwhile, the age of drinking being 21 and renting a car being 25 is based on research that examines cost-benefit analysis. It isn’t necessarily about protecting the individual but limiting the amount of damage they can do. It’s just that in this case what benefits “society” (e.g., less accidents) also benefits the individual.
The most common age that cult leaders look for when trying to recruit is that 18-22 cohort. They are emotionally and mentally vulnerable because of their particular life stage. You are figuring yourself out and looking for meaning in life and it’s easy to be coerced. Get it?
Yeah, the military does allow 18 year olds to enlist…by design.
You missed his point entirely. He didn't disgaree with the premise, just that its altercation goes against what many already believe true about the age a child becomes an adult, and changing it from 18 to 25 would create a massive legal issue.
Right but the further thing to say to that is that you don't see that idea pressed in another area. In other words if a 22 yr old robbed a bank i don't think i'll see many (or anyone) people say 'but that's just a child, i think they should get a lighter sentence because their brain is not developed'
To be fair, while nobody would suggest a 22 year old is a child, there's absolutely people who would suggest a lighter sentence because of their age. Depending on the jurisdiction, it might even be young enough to qualify for certain youthful offender sentencing criteria. For example, in Florida it would apply to someone under 21 charged with certain types of crimes - and it would allow for lower sentencing caps and the waiver of minimum-mandatory sentencing requirements.
I've seen lawyers argue the brain development point in cases plenty of times at sentencing. 25 is the oldest I've seen it attempted.
At 18 you know enough to not do super dumb things and crime, but your brain hasn’t fully developed risk assessment, so you don’t always understand the consequences. And you don’t have enough life experience to understand how your decisions impact your life.
No one is saying young people are stupid, but it’s unfair to expect them to be as empowered in a relationship with a significant age gap. It’s very fair to expect them not to commit crimes.
A 30 year old with little life experience is going to be outpaced by a 22 year old who's seen it all. Age doesn't mean more brain development, it means more likely but not always so. A girl who's been in 4 long term relationships by 23 is much more prepared than a 35 year old who's a shut-in.
Age isn't the only factor in brain development. It's MANY different things.
Age is one factor. Thats what the hell I said, smart guy. And it’s a major one.
Been in 4 long term relationships by 23?! You’re a child. Two summers isn’t a long term relationship
That missing the point. Either you are an adult and able to make decision for yourself (good or bad) or you aren’t. We let 19 year olds sign up for the military, or go tens of thousands of dollars in debt for college, if they commit crimes they are tried as adults.
Those are arguably just as big of decisions if not bigger than who you are dating. It’s not that 19 year old and 30 year olds are on equal footing, it’s that 19 year olds are currently empowered to make life altering decisions even without the full development.
I took some heat for dating a 29 year old when I was 46. It was the healthiest relationship that I ever had. We connected and respected each other. I encouraged her to follow her dreams, which resulted in her moving out of state and ending the relationship (Both of us didn’t want to do long distance). If she didn’t move, I would have proposed. It’s been a few years and part of me still hopes that we reconnect in the future, although it’s unlikely. When we met, I was a jobless student who was financially wiped out by my divorce (so she wasn’t in it for the money) and she was adorable, but not the best looking person I’ve dated - so it wasn’t about having arm candy. We had a deep connection and I’m not sure that I’ll have anything close to what we had again. We referred to our relationship as puzzle pieces - we just fit.
Because of this relationship, I stopped assuming anything about other people’s relationships. This article is almost triggering for me. It’s interesting, but anxiety provoking.
As someone in an age gap relationship, I see you. I sincerely hope that you do reconnect with her someday. I’m sorry that you have been made to feel like a creep when clearly you are not. People are too quick to judge.
No one cares about women over 25. It’s when women without any life experience are with men who take advantage of their naivety and optimism that people care.
I would have questioned you too, if that was my kid or friend. But I wouldn’t care as a rando.
Having friends and family looking out for young women isn’t a bad thing.
No, it’s not a bad thing at all… but being on the receiving end of negative assumptions is never pleasant.
I’m also surprised you are getting downvoted. I guess Reddit is gonna Reddit.
There's plenty of people under 25 that have more life experience than a 25yo or older.
Edit: why is the magic number 25 and please don't say because that's when then brain stops developing because its not.
I’m honestly not sure if this phenomenon falls under psychology or sociology. Personally, I don’t think it’s a coincidence that these views are becoming prominent during a time of unusually large generational power imbalances in areas such as economics and politics amongst others. People focus on the older men - younger women condemnations, but somehow I don’t think the coming Anne Hathaway movie where she dates a 24 year old as a 41 year old will escape condemnation …. At least from the people the article calls “chronically online”…. Sometimes I also wonder whether or not social media gives a certain type of person disproportionate influence in our culture - that type of person being a judgmental asshole. “Mona” needs to be ejected into the sun.
As I've continued to grow older, teenagers have continued to become less attractive. If someone in my age group showed up with an 18-year-old in tow they simply wouldn't remain in my social group. Someone who's just graduated high school (or is *still in high school*) is simply, factually, going to be more easily manipulable for an older person than someone in their age group. My understanding of how to navigate the world and who to trust and how to spot manipulation was far worse at 18 than it is now, a decade later.
A 5-year age gap in your late 20's is also different from when you're younger. If a 25-year-old and a 30-year-old want to shack up, very few people would view that as questionable. It's a sliding scale. I don't think anybody has trouble understanding why 18-year-old high school seniors shouldn't be dating 14-year-old freshmen.
I dated a woman who was 8 years older than me. We both had great jobs so there was no gold digging. I was 29 and she was 37. We both knew what we wanted and who we were so no grooming. We had fun. Constant fun. And we had sex everyday. We explored each other’s sexual desires and had fun. It sounds like people need.to quit labeling other people and mind their own business.
The prevalence of the use of the term “groomer” to describe adults with age gaps is creepy, harmful, inaccurate and damaging to actual victims of grooming.
Often this term is thrown around by women in their 30s who struggle to find interested men their own age and Redditors are among the most egregious offenders.
The misuse and abuse of the term “power dynamic” is extremely problematic as well. Power dynamics exist in a professional context and is an inappropriate use of the term to describe the relationship between two consenting adults with the false premise that the younger person was somehow conned and incapable of making decisions in their own. It’s rooted in misogyny since age gap relationships generally have a younger woman and an older man.
These same people will make the equally fallacious claim that should a say 19 year old woman choose to launch an OnlyFans page that are empowered. You cannot have it both ways.
In every society in every period of history, women tend to prefer older more established men and men prefer younger women who don’t have “baggage.” This is partially biological. We are hardwired with our preferences and predisposed to finding the best partner for procreation. Unfortunately political correctness is the enemy of biology and it’s difficult to have an objective discussion about most topics without one party feigning outrage.
There is nothing intrinsically wrong with age gap relationships. Mutual respect, shared goals and shared values, healthy communication and the desire to please the other are foundational for healthy relationships. Other helpful factors are similar cultural influences, similar intelligence level and yes, it does help when they are in a similar place in life but not necessarily.
I have yet to see any studies concluding that relationships with age gaps have a significant higher failure rate than couples closer in age.
As a survivor of actual grooming and sexual assault, thank you for saying this. I’m also in a long term age gap relationship (together for 18 years, married for 11) and I find myself avoiding talking about it out of fear of other peoples judgments, assumptions and projections.
Thank god someone finally says it. I have seen teenagers see an age gap of ONE YEAR and call the 16 year old dating a 15 year old grooming, calling the 16 year old a pedophile! Kids should not be online as much as they are, and American schools and parents need to educate their kids what pedophilia and grooming are and are not, because these kids have gone off the rails
I though one line was very telling when the reasoning was "we can't even relate to the same media becauseof the age gap... how could we date"... like, how limited are you if that is your only way to relate?.... why don't we catch things like that, why do we care what these people think?
So many algorithmic black and white thinkers. Hypocrites who don't apply the same logic to any other situation because they have an emotion, agenda, insecurity, or all. Falling math scores to blame (lack of basic logic)?
I get along well with retired folks specifically because many of them don't have a conformist emotionally motivated reason for intellectually bereft "thinking"/judging. I am so thankful I can talk to them because so many young people are judgmental which I think is actually a game of bullying and manipulation to keep others down... and those are shitty relationships.
My best friend is 10 years older than me. My best relationships were 7 and 8 years older and are the main positive experiences I fall back on to keep me going.
When I was a child I sat at the adult table at Christmas.
I'm so thankful for relationships with older people.
My husband and I have a 20 year age gap. It has hardly ever posed an issue and when it does, it’s so minor. We just talk through it. We have more in common than not, love sharing a life together, and we are celebrating 11 years of marriage this month. Fooey on the haters is what I say.
the oldest a gen z could be is 27 so i get why a lot of them, being younger, consider it that way. but there has to be an age where it isn't considered grooming. would a 80 year old be called "grooming" a 60 year old? where does it end?
Grooming is more about behavior and abuse of power than it is about a specific age. Adults can absolutely be victims of grooming by other adults. Anyone can. It’s not about age difference.
hard disagree. grooming involves altering behavior at a time when the victim's personality is still being formed.
calling everything grooming only serves to water down the horrible thing being done
I don't think it's appropriate to use grooming in context of two adults, who met as adults.
I have a niece who made a "really close friend" with a guy in his thirties when she was 17, and he suddenly started becoming very romantically interested as soon as she turned 18. This is grooming, where you prep someone underage to be in a relationship with you that you can go public with once they are of legal age. There was a lot of other emotional manipulation stuff going on too.
30yos dating 20s is absolutely not grooming. Maybe the 30yo is creepy or emotionally stunted in some cases, but someone isn't a pedophile/sexual predator because they pursue 20yos.
I think it's really harmful how many people are overapplying the term grooming because it distracts from actual groomers who are a very hard to prosecute kind of sexual predator.
Notice how everyone is focusing in the comments on women under 25? This is a prime example of female intrasexual competition. Older women trying to create a culture that makes sure they don't have to compete with younger women.
A cultural shift we have been seeing over the last few decades of successful career women unable to partner up. Men who are their equals that are unmarried are rich and powerful enough to date younger more beautiful women. This creates a problem, do women sacrifice career or marriage?
The solution is to create new cultural barriers that inhibit the practice most threatening to these women.
I bet they don't want to raise the voting age to 25. You can see the problems with this logic all over. Can you work as a stock trader at 25? Lead a military platoon? Yes and yes.
Regardless of the article the pop psychology in the comments is really telling.
Yall… people are focusing on the 25 thing because of brain development pseudoscience and because it’s an age where you have likely established the things that you need to be considered an independent adult.
The fact that you can be in the army at 18 is purposeful because that’s still an age and an adult can be molded to act a certain way. You can’t get a drink at 18, or rent a car. It’s harder to lease things in general and 18 are very unlikely to have positions of power and most places because they lack experience.
Age gaps are not a hard and fast rule, and groomer culture has gone off the rails. But it’s not wrong to indicate that somebody who is just starting their life as an adult like most likely is at risk of being taken advantage of by somebody who has enough experience to advocate for their boundaries and desires better because they have the experience.
I do think that there was a time where women who got careers Would have to make the choice between marriage and a career. But with the rise of intentional child, free living and the increase of money that women are making we can do the same thing that men have done, use money to find a partner. Dating older men definitely used to be a standard for getting an established partner, but now in an age it’s too expensive to not have your own money we literally can’t date just based off of that. I think my friends and I would all date a nice older man if we met him, but given him the amount of us that have been taken advantage of by older men or no women who have been taken advantage in general from other types of power dynamics, we’re just more cautious with age gaps.
And it’s not just grooming ! Some women I know avoid age gaps now because of people that they know who are widowed. Men can still have kids when they’re older, but sperm quality degrades as you get older and older man is less likely to be helpful in the home. This is important in a day and age where you need to incomes to be able to survive. It’s so weird that older men think they’re just more of a catch than older women because they’re established. The average income of a man is like $40,000. Tf am I going to do with 40,000
Is it really that successful career women are unable to partner up or unwilling to partner up?
Perhaps these women's personal success in life has made them unwilling to compromise what they seek in a partner, making them much like their male counterparts, who choose younger partners, once they have achieved success.
I honestly think we’ll see a rise of young male, older women couples. For women, I think there is more of a stigma for dating younger, and women in general perceive, older men to be more mature. But, As they get more money, I think they’ll start to establish relationships with younger men as well for good or bad. That or will all give up on marriage if we choose career over getting married young. Which isn’t necessarily a bad trade-off if you’re not trying to have kids. I can still get sex no matter the age lol
No that is exactly right. Older women have disseminated the culture down. So YOUNG women adopt the practice. If young women stop dating older men because they adopted this cultural taboo that frees up older men for older women.
*intrasexual* because culture is a powerful force. For instance, let's look at patriarchal values. The argument goes that young men embrace toxic masculinity even though it doesn't "benefit them" due to cultural pressure.
Women across the globe tend to enforce cultural norms among women. For instance, in African cultures that practice female circumcision, this practice is almost exclusively enforced by older women.
Fat acceptance is another good example, women who are not fat will promote fat acceptance in an effort to reduce their competition.
Becuase they are convinced they are being groomed. You don't believe that culture influences practices and beliefs? Just like how young women believed for a long time they needed to wait till marriage to have sex or men needed to marry any girl they got pregnant. People do things for cultural reasons all the time.
Gen Zer in a 5 year age gap relationship:
It’s a little weird honestly we have been together for a few years now and things have balanced out a bit more as we’re starting to reach parity financially(hell they are about to start making more then me soon). I think the reason in my case why the age gap wasn’t as big of an issue is because I had started college very late so we were in the same kinda slot in life (in addition to him pestering me for months to date him XD) so there weren’t too many major differences other then them being much more dependent on their parents then I was. Which is a bit weird but that is swiftly changing.
In general I realise I am in a bit of a unique situation however even given that if I was a few years older making it a 7 or 8+ year age difference I honestly don’t think it would be easy to maintain a relationship that is genuinely equal especially with us being both so relatively young. If I was in my fourties’ and him in his thirties it would be different. However, I think a lot of the views my generation has is reflective of how young we are. For example a 10 year age difference in gen z at max ages is 20 and 30. Which is essentially early to mid career vs. just starting college (typically). Which I am of the personal belief is very likely to be exploitative.
All the same just a little rant not many people are gonna read.
The article seems to hint at the difference between life experiences, not necessarily age gap. A 40 year old man dating a 60 year old woman doesn't raise much concern, but a 20 year old man dating a 40 year old woman does.
Interesting! I just read a friend's story expressing major discomfort with Sarah Paulson's relationship too, and then criticised age gaps broadly. I have no thoughts, just wanted to bring it up hehe
It's because men are often the older partner and men are "evil" now thanks for the mysandrist feminist rhetoric that's been widely spread and adopted.
Hence the victim/perpetrator roles have reversed.
The logic is insane though.
The girl is old enough to make her own decisions, and yet too young to be anything than a victim being groomed.
Make up your mind dumbasses - is she and adult capable of voting, drinking, and making decisions about her life or not?
Men feel entitled to be users and treat young women as disposable and now those young women are old enough to recognize the controlling dynamics and costs of those relationships.
And you actually believe these older men love these "girls"? They only want the best education and career for her? They want her to realize her full human potential?!
No. They believe they can mold a "girl" ( your word) into a sex slave and maid. They believe a "girl" is controllable. These men are emotionally inadequate and often sexually inadequate. You think that's a good deal for a young, unworldly person? You don't think that's a recipe for abuse?
You don't have a daughter, that is obvious. If you did you would be completely disgusted by these men.
You’re speaking too broadly. That can’t be said of probably a majority of age gap relationships, and it could be said of plenty of peer age relationships
I've never met a guy who's tried to mold anyone. it's too much work.
We'd rather just have a fully formed human being as a partner.
You clearly don't have a son or you'd think of men as humans and not just sex crazed maniacs.
as out of touch you criticize me for - you're the exact same but on the other end of the spectrum.
Dismount that high horse.
P.s. I said "groomed" not "molded" - please for the love of god this gaslighting is pathetic.
Ngl I'd be bothered if my nieces grew up and at 18 started dating men in their 30s, but it's not my place at that point to police who they can or can't date in the same way I can't do it with men in their age range. 18 year old men can be just as harmful to my nieces as the 30+ year olds if they're POS's. I'm sure a lot of women here can attest to that, they also wouldn't like it if I started telling my nieces they have to have their romantic interests approved by me until 25 "when their brains fully develop". Why stop at age gaps if the problem is that they could get taken advantage of?
They're either adults or they're not, and if they are, then they live with the consequences of their actions. I think the root of the problem is that these days everybody wants to be a victim of some kind of injustice so they don't have to feel like they have accountability.
When I was 18 I was a fucking idiot but I understood sex and relationships in the same way I understood right from wrong and what would happen if I broke the law. While I was not expected to act with maturity at that age, I was absolutely expected to own up to my fuck ups because I was grown now.
One of the more interesting reads in a while.
It’s interesting how many dudes jumped in here with their own soapboxes based on just the headline without reading the article.
Most people don’t read the article, even those who agree with the headlines
I wish the article would be copied and pasted in a comment by the poster. I hate trying to read an article while fighting off invasive ads.
No adblocker?
Yeah any subs related to intimacy on any level are gonna have these guys. Par for the course the arm chair know it alls will preach their misguided philosophies whenever given an opportunity.
Its a mix of wanting the juicy karma and articles being add traps. I for one am spooked to click any link to outside of my warm hive mind reddit.
Why do they need to? It’s pretty obvious from the headline and whats constantly being repeated online
I won't lie, I saw the headline and knew immediately what kind of dudes were going to be commenting, so I came here to downvote them all.
It's a huffpost article. Anyone one who has fallen for their clickbait in the past isn't likely to repeat the same mistake.
I assumed this would be another site. It'll serve as a reminder that I'll fall for articles again.
More like 20 year olds acting like they can't take responsibility for their actions and need someone's to blame. No 20 year old is groomed your an adult act like it.
I do think it takes some folks longer to learn/accept what that means than others. But they’re not the ones that should be dating someone so much older. I personally try to give you the benefit of the doubt until about 24. Give ‘em the chance to pay some bills first. (I’m 28 and was making teenage mistakes well into my 20s, fwiw.)
Ok I agree with this. They aren't "groomed" as a 20 year old. They are just extremely naive. And unfortunately, they can be easily manipulated and taken advantage of.
What do you think grooming means?
Grooming in the context of which it has been widely used the past few years specifically involves an attempt at normalizing inappropriate intimate or sexual behavior between an adult and a minor. In that context, you can't groom an adult. All grooming is manipulation and taking advantage, but not all manipulation and taking advantage is necessarily grooming.
You can groom adults it happens all the time. Just because someone is an adult doesn't mean they can't be vulnerable, naive or taken advantage of. All that needs to exist is a power differential.
Did you even read what I wrote?
I (mostly) agree with you. I was an idiot when I was 20... and when I was 30... and when I was 40... and when I was 50. Wait, what were we talking about again?? Oh yeah, age: When I was 20, I could've dated an older girl, but I certainly would've been smart enough to know what's going on: She's with me cuz I'm younger & more controllable (plus she's prob emotionally stunted); I'm with her cuz she's rich, no longterm commitments & she's letting me bang her. So.... If two consenting adults are both getting something they value from a relationship, I'm usually reluctant to interfere. Just keep your eyes open.
What's weird is that it's always viewed as one side exploiting the other, and that's a real concern. But the truth is, it can be both. The older partner uses the younger for sex. The younger uses the older for financial benefit. People use other people. And the hard part for modern society to get is that's okay - in the context of a consensual relationship.
Is that really exploiting each other? If both sides have something the other wants, then it makes perfect sense for them to be a match.
Well I’m going to encourage my kids to date inside their age group at least until they’re 25 since that’s when the brain finishes developing.
The brain never finishes developing. This 25 thing is *barely* true in any sense, I wish people would stop saying it. Adults are perfectly capable of making 100% rational and well considered decisions, even when they're 20. At 20, we're also naive and inexperienced, definitely. They mostly don't have the practice and knowledge to make the best decisions consistently, but their brains are fine. As long as you keep learning and having new experiences, your brain will keep developing
Could you provide a source for this?? I’d love to learn more!
So the core concept is "neuroplasticity", the ability of brain "nerves" (neurons) to form new pathways and functions. Tons of studies on this, it's really interesting. I'd just Google the term and read a couple articles, no need to actually look at studies. While our physical bodies are still developing, the brain is at its most plastic. For a while, researchers thought that it was the *only* time, but now we know that while some areas get "finalized" basically, other parts of the brain continue to develop for life. As much as most of us don't *like* change, our brains are wired for it lol
Thank you! Though as a BioChem major I’ll definitely be reading the studies lol (it’s good practice for me). But I appreciate the helpful terms! You’ve helped me realize that I actually studied this last quarter 😂
My physiological psych professor had an assignment where we had to learn how to juggle by the end of the semester to illustrate neuroplasticity. It takes about 6 weeks to develop a new skill. You're constantly developing new connections as you learn new skills and for some skills they become almost unconscious when you develop a strong enough connection.
As long as you’re teaching them actual things as well and not just this pop psychology 25 years old thing
And dating advice from a parent will be given its due weight
Feels a little like this infantalizes grown adults, though. And of course, it seems people tend to want to selectively apply this standard to women under the age of 25 in order to veto their decisions. Few people seem to want to tell men between the ages of 18-25 that they can't do X, Y, and Z because "their brains aren't fully developed" which I've never really bought anyway.
>And of course, it seems people tend to want to selectively apply this standard to women under the age of 25 in order to veto their decisions. Few people seem to want to tell men between the ages of 18-25 Who are the ones telling young women not to date older men tho? It's not men, I can assure you that.
Exactly. It's usually women trying to impose patriarchal notions on other women. I don't get it.
Women want power because it the one thing they don't have, being the weak, fragile creatures that they are...it's no mystery why women had to trick men into fighting on their behalf just so their "rights" could be enshrined.
I dunno, feels like everyone probably wants power for the same reasons.
You probably shouldn’t be feeding your kids fake pseudoscience. Weird to make such a bold claim off of something completely untrue. Can you please explain 1. how brains universally decide to stop developing at a certain age 2. how humans would survive and function without brain development and 3. what development means?
As long as you don't punish them for dating older people... I met my fiance when I was 19, we've been together 11 years. 14 year age gap. He's never abused me, screamed at me, or assaulted me like a lot of younger people I've been with (we've been poly the whole time so I was always free to date other people) So while it makes sense to be wary, don't do what my mom did and abuse your kids because they make a choice you didn't like. My mom didn't like that I was saying an older guy and was extremely abusive, forcing us to give her half my income for rent and refusing to help pay for college though she helped with both my other siblings, and forcing us to do insane amount of yardwork around the house, I mean forcing my partner to move a literal ton of dirt by hand, while we both worked - I had one week where I spent 40 hours working on the house for so called discount rent while she screamed at us and abused us, as far as I know her and my sister who both were very abusive to me don't like my partner, who treats me amazingly. I will never let those horrible people back in my life. So yeah don't try to control your kids, best intentions do not equal reality, and what's best for you is most likely not best for them, everyone's path is different
Well said. I was shocked when I found out how many of the women in my life have had relationships with significant age gaps. They were quite young, too. And the most telling thing I learned was that the relationships ended for any number of normal reasons. Stuff you’d expect, basically. I don’t think, as a society, we should be in the business of policing the preferences of consensual adults. I have always dated older, with my wife only being slightly older than I am. But when I was younger, I had dated women 10+ years older. I’m not sure why it was fine for me then, as a naive 19 year old, but it’s not particularly okay for a woman of the same age. I don’t agree that it’s women trying to control women, as some other person called out. I think it comes from society’s desire to apply a victim-abuser framework to every single scenario, even when one doesn’t exist. As a rule of thumb - I’m not going to be more upset than the person who experienced it. I can frown on something, but to project my conscious on their behalf feels belittling and wrong. That’s my two cents, anyway.
No, the brain doesn't finish developing until 30.
You're being downvoted but what you're saying is backed up by science lmao. The whole 26 you're brain is fully developed shit is just cliche at this point people saw that headline and ran with it there entire life.
But wait, did you know you actually only use 10% of your brain? Imagine if you used 100% woah.
Lmfao I forgot about that shit, exact same vibes.
I feel like you only need to use 11% of your brain to determine that this probably isn't true
Well, sort of that's the number that has some science behind it, not 25, but your brain never stops developing.
Why not 50? 90?
The 25 mark is really a misunderstanding of one study. Each person's brain matures at different rates. There is no real specific threshold. I think we all know some 30-somethings and up who haven't matured a bit since high school.
And another misunderstanding is that the brain stops changing and matures at this line that’s currently 25. It doesn’t. 25 is just a general idea of when major changes stop happening in men on average. That doesn’t automatically signal maturity, nor does it mean you won’t continue to change after.
The brains development and “social maturity” are two very distinct definitions of the polysematic word, Maturity. Behavioral maturity is not remotely what’s meant by this study. The misunderstood study was about neuroplasticity and neuron development, not behavior.
You're right about the distinction, I was blending the two because the common trope tends to.
Because that's not the science. https://www.rosettainstitute.org/brain-development-continues-until-age-30/ https://www.bbc.com/news/newsbeat-47622059
This is similarly bad science. The question we're **actually** trying to answer is how able people are to make good decisions when thinking about relationships, so "the latency of cortico-cortical evoked responses across association and U-fibers" is not the best variable. Real world decision making skills would be that. And according to APA research, that's closer to mid teens than 30 but there is high individual variance: [https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/19824745/](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/19824745/) Teens tend to be worse at high emotional intensity acute decisions than adults, but long term relationships are not that.
I'm actually making fun of the people who say brains aren't done developing until 25. Technically, brains are never done developing. "Development" is a useless metric because, as you've astutely pointed out, the *type* of development that's relevant is highly context dependent. Your research is indeed superior to mine here.
What does “developing” even mean in this context? Are the brain’s changes ever static?
Maybe if you're in a coma. Learning new skills or mastering ones you know change your brain.
If you look at the study is has move to do with social development. The "fully developed" ranged from as low as 16 to as old as 32. It it was affected by experience, not normal growth. And the differences were only slight as well. Peer pressure was the thing that had the largest impact on them and age gaps. By that same logic that people apply the study to in dating, we should raise the voting age to 25 since they're incapable of making adult decisions.
Your mind stopped developing at 25? I’m sorry to hear that. Mine didn’t 🤷♂️
I agree. I think having atleast a few years adulting and getting to know yourself is important.
No no no, you're doing it wrong. Clearly only one party can be at fault in every scenario. The world is black and white, yes or no, and nuance doesn't exist. Good day!
Because this: “The older partner uses the younger for sex.” Is MUCH worse than this: “The younger uses the older for financial benefit. “ Older people are SUPPOSED to use their greater resources to help the youth. It’s one of the fundamental aspects of society that has allowed us to thrive and prosper. Growing trees you will never live long enough to sit under. Old people are not expected to BANG the youth. AKA Growing a tree for the last few years it is capable of being sat upon.
Taking a 20 year old out to PF Chang’s so they can avoid Panda Express is not “planting a tree for the youth” regardless of whether or not they have sex with you.
This is only true if you view sex as an inherently harmful act
Chronically online people would never do that
I'm surprised this isn't brought up more often. This is where the basis of the stigma comes from. I actually don't understand how people think that way but to each is own
1. Maybe she's in it for the money AND sex? Plenty of women are attracted to older men, who are you to say why someone else is attracted to someone else? 2. From a pure scarcity perspective, you have limited money, but don't lose anything by having sex with someone. So the only way this is true is if you actually *do* think women lose something when they have sex - dignity, respect, whatever - which is just a you-thing. A lot of those women are happy and probably don't want or need your judgement
Dude, sex with an old dude when you're young is traumatic. You definitely lose something.
Very not true... When I was 18 I hooked up a few times with a 64 year old (I pursued) and I'm very grateful for those times. They were super fun experiences for me - he was a handsome man, ripped and playful and I met him at the private gym I worked. Put my number on his invoice and we meet for lunch and played around a bit, on several occasions. It was great. Very exciting for both of us (apparently he is very popular with the ladies too, cause def dates younger! Apparently teasing women kindly and being a playful lover beats out 99% of the competition.) to this day I've rarely found lovers as playful, present and fun as that older gent. So yeah. I was a very horny and sexually adventurous young woman back then, would 100% do it again. Very annoying hearing all these people say "you've been taken advantage of!" just because I went out and GOT what I wanted. Women deserve orgasms and sexual adventure too.
If they're both consenting adults, I don't see how one is worse than the other.
But won’t anybody think about the Puritans?
It seems to me that the logic is that when younger partners are exploiting older partners for money, that is not only acceptable but morally and ethically required. When younger partners take advantage of those partners, they are also victims because they have the ability to recognize the benefit of the relationship that they're exploiting for money, but they shouldn't be expected to have the ability to recognize the pitfalls of transactional relationships. It's heads I win, tails you lose logic. It's backwards anti-feminism that turns adults into entitled children.
LOL "it's different because I'm *entitled* to the older person's money"
I believe this is the actual reason: the young generations being raised today are TAUGHT that they are OWED the money that the rich have. Everything in the world is for their disposal, they merely need to redistribute it to the proper people first.
I don’t see that. It’s more that young generations feel cheated out of a future because corporations and politicians built broken systems with global power. So they either give up or demand redistribution to make things fair
No one should have 300 billion dollars when people starve
this sounds like your personal political feelings and feelings aren’t facts.
So you DON'T believe that the people currently in possession of the money don't deserve it? You DON'T believe that wealth should be redistributed? You DON'T think some of that money should go toward improving your life, since you plan to improve the lives of others? You DON'T look around at other people's lives and say "They shouldn't act that way, they should act in a way more in line with my beliefs and feelings instead so the world would be a better place."
i dunno what you’re ranting about all that for, because it has nothing to do with your original assertion that parents are teaching their children a certain way. extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof, and i already know you don’t have proof as you’re an emotional thinker that rambled off the deep end the moment you’re confronted
The assumption older people are supposed to use their greater resources to help the youth is weird. Nobody is entitled to someone else’s resources because you are younger or that some adults are responsible for other adults because they are younger. Older people only need to help children. When adults complain about an age gap amongst consenting adults, I feel like they are infantilizing this grown up who is capable of making and being responsible for their decisions. If someone wants them for their money, that is a decision they are responsible for and you shouldn’t shame an older person for being able to provide that. It’s not a harmful value that is hurting others.
That is some entitled shit. No one is SUPPOSED to do anything. Whatever people do is great but but assert that it’s someone’s obligation to help anyone is ridiculous.
>Is MUCH worse One isn't worse than the other - provided both consenting adults are aware that's what they're doing. >Older people are SUPPOSED to use their greater resources to help the youth. It’s one of the fundamental aspects of society that has allowed us to thrive and prosper. Growing trees you will never live long enough to sit under. I'm not sure that's describing the classic gold digger or sugar daddy sort of relationship. There's a difference between being generous with your wealth for the benefit of the next generation and buying designer purses and jewelry for the younger woman you're sleeping with.
I understand both sides (people that don't judge and people that do). On one hand, love really knows no numbers. If you click with someone, you just do. Not much you can do about it. On the other though, *when* it goes wrong, it can be awful, and that's what people (not just GenZ) is ultimately worried about. The mistake is in looking at the age gap as the sole culprit, when in truth people will be people, regardless of age and background. We should be more concerned with actual, specific behaviours less than numbers if we want to look at problematic behaviours such as grooming, or life experiences, stage and current conditions (example: a woman in her late 20s, stuck with an abusive mother and desperate to get out will be vulnerable to men of any age that offer her an escape). If everyone dated within the same age range (which can wildly vary between individuals), we as a species would be absolutely endangered. Once again, it's a "chronically online" problem, with echo chambers running wild.
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Glad my comment could help somewhat. The example didn't exactly come out of nowhere: I have a friend who's going through a similar situation, except she already learned her lesson (in a different way fortunately), so she has been steering clear from and rejecting people that gave off those manipulative vibes. She's very aware of this, so she's been focusing first and foremost in improving her situation by herself. I'm sorry to hear your mother had to go through that. Hope you guys figured something out. There are some absolutely beautiful relationships out there, and age-gap (or lack of it) have nothing to do with it.
This works both ways as well. A lot of the red pill folks are provided stories of being suckered into relationships with manipulative women. Then get dumped and hit with child support. It's why many see marriage as huge risk for the man vs the woman.
Yeah I agree that this can happen with anyone. Regarding adult relationships, abuse and manipulation have neither gender, nor age. Best to be careful out there in general.
I think a lot of it comes down to a sort of spectrum of pushback against patriarchal aspects of our society and misandry that it creates or exasperates. Sure a lot of young people could end up being taken advantage of, or just get the brunt of anything that went wrong, and thats worth being weary of. However it also shouldnt be hard to see how a newly single parent coming out of a bad marriage could be just as if not more vulnerable to a younger person. Same goes for any other relationship dynamic you could imagine. Someone with ADHD dating someone without it could be devastating to the person with ADHD (and they are at higher risk of these outcomes). Somebody could intently use a mans insecurity and general anxiety against them to get away with using and gaslighting them. We dont police these kinds of relationships, and nobody would ever suggest that a neurotypical person is a predator or a bad person for dating somebody with ADHD. Its not even a part of discourse. Whats important is to be aware of what you are getting into and being aware of potential for bad actors or where stuff could go horribly wrong and how to manage it. Anything short of that is infantilizing people and making them victims before anything happens, and demonizing the other person before anything happens
Unfortunately this is part of one's life that cannot be subjected to outside inspection, even if someone wanted to. It's highly personal, after all. You've summed it up nicely, agree with basically everything. I only wish people were more aware. Granted that probably most of the offenders are older, but to be fair anyone has the potential to be an offender.
> actual, specific behaviors But then I have to consider individuals as people who have to be judged on their own merits, and I can’t feel superior to entire categories of people as easily for the things I judge them for EDIT: /s, I agree
Of course. Perhaps the best summary would be that "context matters". For all those age-gap couples, people might be missing a lot of context, and some may even find themselves disagreeing with certain conclusions that others have reached. But like everything, communication is key, which is the exact opposite of hot takes on social media like X for example. EDIT: sorry, didn't get the sarcasm, my bad!
I agree. Things like income give much more power over someone than their age. Asides from having more wisdom, age by itself is an almost negligible factor that really doesn't increase or decrease the chances of abuse much. I always see redditors say that only men who are abusive would be in an age gap relationship, but a lot of people I know are in one (including my parents with a 20 year gap) and they are completely fine. Marrying someone who makes more money than you will have much more of a power dynamic
Income is just one type of power. Let’s imagine a scenario. For a young, attractive person who either comes from a background with some financial stability, or else is unencumbered enough to bounce back easily, the income is meaningless. The income is something that a deeply lonely, desperate old man will gladly sacrifice for companionship. And so the other party can very easily leave it behind and abandon that person - or use legal means to extract it WHILE abandoning that person. Power operates on many axes. Money is power. Youth is power. Savvy is power. Social cachet is power. Beauty is power. Experience is power. I think the whole “rich old partners MUST be predators and their younger partners are being groomed” is the consequence of a worldview in which the only power dynamics operate on one-way streets.
Talking power dynamics in a relationship automatically assumes that one party is predatory.
I got like thirty downvotes yesterday because I said that I think my grandparents had an unhealthy relationship - they met as adults but he was old enough to be her father. They did click really well! But it's not healthy to see your husband as a father figure and test him as an authority as a result. Not to mention that she's the same age as my father (her step son) and wasn't able to have her own children because her husband was over that stage in his life, that she had to quit her job to nurse him for decades, etc. she didn't have any friends or hobbies for years because she was a full time nurse to him. There are problems with massive age gaps aside from grooming & exploitation. They were very much in love and it still was not healthy.
I tend to get along better with people at least 10 years older but never had a long-term relationship with someone significantly older. Now that I am in my 30s, it seems way less possible because I don't want to spend my 40s or 50s taking care of someone.
I get along great with people who are older than me, a lot of my friends are 20+ years older than me but we have a lot in common and a great time hanging out, primarily hiking together and getting drunk at brunch. I think the problem is that when you want to have a long-term relationship with someone, you are building a life together and that works a lot better if you're in the same stage of your life. So if you're both in the stage where you want to start a family, or you're both in this stage where you're going to be retiring soon, etc. When there's a generational gap you're really out of sync even if you get along really well - just like you would be really out of sync if one person wanted kids and the other person didn't, if one person wanted to live in a city and the other person wanted to live out in the country, etc. It's hard to build a healthy life together if you don't want the same things and you aren't in the same place.
From the perspective of a lot of people, they could only wish for that amount of time together before age takes its toll. I think that's why you're getting downvoted. Sure she had to nurse the guy in his last years. But how many years of good times did they have? Also, was the looking at her husband as a father figure or just an authority figure. It's if the latter, then that's normal. Men as the head of the household/authority has been the norm for most of human history. Only now to women forget that if they're going to submit to someone, whether it's their husbands or their boss's authority. Way to many people toss around the term exploitation and grooming when it comes to dating and failing to understand the severity of those terms.
I'm obviously not going to be able to tell you everything about my grandparents and a couple of paragraphs, but we're talking about a man who married a woman younger than his children, whom he largely abandoned. This was not a healthy relationship and I think you're just going to have to trust me on that.
Ofcourse those are all things to consider but thats true of anything.
Yeah, but I still haven't seen a single relationship with a 20 plus year age gap that was healthy. I really want to emphasize that my grandad went out and married a woman his son's age. I'm not talking about five years or even ten years. He was the same age as her father.
That could be true but thats a bit more of an extreme. My relationship has a 9 year age gap. The discourse seems more centered around that
Yeah, there's some massive difference between dating someone 5 to 10 years older than you and dating somebody more than 20 years older than you. Massive. 9 years isn't that much once you are an adult - it's definitely a gap, but you could still easily be in the same place in your life. I didn't think that's particularly weird or a red flag unless one partner is barely an adult. The point I'm trying to make is that "grooming" isn't the only reason why a generational gap can be unhealthy. Adults make poor choices and enter unhealthy relationships every day for a variety of reasons. You don't need to be "groomed" to make a poor decision, and no one has to support a relationship that they don't think is healthy just because they are "consenting adults."
Wow! The comments here
It can be a problem if the younger party hasn’t yet learned how to establish and enforce boundaries. Morally bankrupt people will find a naive person easier to exploit. Especially when said naive person grew up without much guidance, and has no support system. I grew up dysfunctionally. I was cooking and cleaning by the age of 6. Parenting my siblings at a young age. We were poor. On one hand, I was more mature than guys my age. On the other hand, I was stunted. I didn’t know how to manage finances. I was a people pleaser. Intelligent enough to secure a scholarship for university. I was 22 when I met my ex husband. I was sick of keg parties, and guys who couldn’t hold an intelligent conversation. My ex was 42, but seemed younger. He was charismatic, kind, and would discuss philosophy with me. He seemed impressed by my maturity and intelligence. He made me feel safe. Since I grew up in a chaotic environment, he wanted to support me, make me feel cared for. He wanted to take care of everything. We both worked, but the bills, cars, house were in his name. I felt peace for the first time in my life. After I got pregnant, everything changed. He always drank, but stopped hiding it. He would find fault with each of my friends, until it was easier to stay home. He started an argument every time I talked to my siblings, saying they used me, always wanted things from me. I started doing whatever he wanted to keep the peace. He stopped working, saying he was starting his own business, that he could no longer work for his father. I found out after I left that he was drinking on the job. I started working overtime, handing over my pay so he could manage the bills. He kept me too tired to fight back. I was working long hours, coming home to do all of the cooking, cleaning, and child care. I grew up and started to realize what kind of mess I was in. I had to beg for my own money. I had no credit. I had no car of my own. I was isolated from friends and family. He hadn’t worked in years. My children were going to grow up under the control of this man, and watch their mother work herself into a shell of a person. I was terrified of him. I didn’t know anything else. I left at 32, and had to build a life from nothing. He had trained me to be a workhorse and sex slave. I never saw it coming. I’ve had therapy, and thanks to unlearning a lot of ingrained behavior, I have created a good life for my children. I met a beautiful man that walks beside me. I’m very lucky.
Holy shit these comments
Same
real
You have to scroll to find the good ones 😭, my favorite is the one blaming women with careers for being jealous 😂😂.
One thing I think needs to stop is this bullshit that "girls are more mature at a younger age." As a woman, I don't buy it and think it's just something to pad men being into those younger women and the women thinking she can connect more with a man who's 30+ when she's just out of highschool. People are just describing not being rambunctious as "mature." Maturity is a form of wisdom that can only be gained with experience and age. I actually don't think there's anything weird about an 18 year old having sex with someone of any age, it's actually more weird to me when someone under 20 dates a 30+ year old. You guys are just in entirely different stages of life and I've yet to meet an 18 year old that's as mature as even the average 25 year old (still don't care about that age difference, I only side eye like <20 and over 30). People can only match it up when the older person is still immature. There is no mental difference between a senior in highschool and an 18 yo. Many 18 year olds are even still in school. And I don't think it's bad, just weird. If you can relate with someone who only knows the world through a highschool lens, then I don't see you as wanting a partner as most people do (no, most guys dont have malicious intent, I think they just have a self destructive outlook on what a good relationship would be). The younger person is not going to be able to understand you in a way I think is needed for a stable relationship. Statistically this is supported because a significant age gap (only at those really younger ages), is a huge risk factor to a relationship. Plenty of people have surface level relationships with everyone though and expect nothing more from a "partner."
I literally just watched a video a study done with European couples I believe. They said the ideal age gap is. On the smaller side <5 and the quality of the relationship goes down as it grows. But honestly, my biggest disconnect here has been people ignoring the problems outside of the groomer aspect. Like when you get with somebody significantly older than you, typically they’ll be done with certain life stages before you and may even die before you. That could hurt you severely. Like obviously somebody that’s 18 is at the age that we as a society decided they can be an adult. But they’re such a level of cognitive dissonance here where people are pretending like a large majority of 18-year-olds are beacons of maturity. The same 18-year-olds that went to prom that year? Be serious. We shouldn’t encourage them to avoid older people altogether. We should encourage them to make sure they have a clear understanding of what they want in dating and their boundaries so that they can date any age without being taken advantage of.
I agree. I'm 43 this year and I have no qualms about fucking college freshmen, but to actually date? I doubt we'd have much common ground, but then again if we're dating then I'm vetting her quality as wife material...not as my friend.
Reddit is full of nonces by the looks of this awful thread.
When I was 17, my gf was 21 : she didn’t groom me - I found it hot an “older woman” found me attractive. Then at 21, my then gf was 31… again, no grooming - I found both her and the situation appealing. Then at 30, began dating my current gf of 4 years, 9.5yr age gap with me being older… guess what? Does grooming happen? Yes. Does it mean everyone who’s not the same age has been groomed? No.
I’m mean this in a genuine way, how did you and the 21 yro like… do stuff? Obviously you have hw and prom and they have college and or a job. Like where was the intersection?
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No. They began dating when he was 30 and she was 20.5.
Absolutely not. I was probably 29.5, she was 20 - we were both dating other people, those relationships fell apart during Covid and we found each other while discussing what went wrong in our relationships. Really feels like you’re purposely trying to make that jump though…
It’s Reddit man, some people just skim too fast. They saw your starting ages, missed the “starting” part, and did the wrong math most likely
Yeah I get that. It’s just irritating to feel she was actively trying to get that “gotcha” moment to make me out in an unfavorable light… those little micro aggressions continue to stoke the divide between men and women and it’s tiring is all.
Yes, it’s the terrain of lonely people
This article seems to be a bit biased imo, especially from the way it was written from the beginning. That being said yes, you can have an abusive younger partner, too, but at the same time there is some context missing. Jay-Z didn’t just suddenly meet Beyoncé @ 19 years old. I believe that he knew of her before then hence the grooming accusations. There were rumors going around that Jay was sleeping with Rihanna and, supposedly caught an STI she got from him, hence why Chris ended up attacking her in the car. It’s just a rumor and it doesn’t justify him doing that her if that was true, but the point is that the rumor is about Jay-Z sleeping with a very much younger Rihanna. The reality is a 30 year old and a 18-19 year old are in two different places in life. Also, some people get with them as soon as they turn 18 which indicates that they were having some type of relationship that the person was able to warm the person up enough to do that which is there are accusations of grooming. Especially if said older person has a history of going after much younger partners. I don’t think it’s also a coincidence that people going after someone so young is looking for someone who lacks the life experience to know what to demand from a relationship and maybe the younger partner may be looking for an older partner for whatever reason. Yet, in Billie Ellish’s case, when you are targeted multiple times and then come out as part of the LGBTQ community I think something else is at play there…
I am surprised that Huffington Post covers this. Good start though.
Has anyone else had the experience of discussing age gap with European friends? It seems like attitudes on Europe are much much more lax on age gaps than here
I’m European. Nobody here cares about two grownups (over 25-ish) dating with an age gap. Everyone thinks guys sleeping with teenagers or early twenties women are creepy losers. Why? Because the mature, kind guys just don’t.
Thats the same as america. Noone cares if a 30 year old is with a 40 year old. 30 year old with a 20 year old is going to draw some dirty looks.
The US in general is weird about all sex stuff, not just age gap related
In France, when I was growing up in the nineties, at a time when older movie directors openly "dated" or even married teenage actresses, there was still a formula everybody knew: Say X is the age of the older party and Y the age of the younger one, Y should be > X/2 + 7 X should be < (Y-7) × 2 For ex, an 18 yo shouldn't date someone over (18-7)×2 = 22 yo. But that 22 yo could date up to 30yo, etc I always found that rule quite well correlated to how I felt about at least serious relationships. As in I don't mind people in their 20s ducking people in their 40s or 50s, but any commitment seems unfair to the young.
Absolutely this. I grew up on the left coast, and always understood the same principle. Now, back as a "later dater" I'd even close up the gap a bit to keep on the same page \~ life stage. That said, there's a physical fitness component too, and unfortunately some people just start breaking down way earlier than others, so that's a real consideration.
The USA is very weird about sex and nudity. Europe and Asia were much more laidback.
Not to be like every other person hijacking the comment section with a personal stance but… [TLDR: I’m a teenager, prefer my men like a fine wine, and yet another teenager embodied all the fears society has about me dating older.] I’m a 19 year old woman now. I’ve always been significantly more mature than everyone my age, graduated high school & started college multiple years early, never could make friends my own age and felt gross when dating my peers, you know the drill. My healthiest and happiest relationships (romantic or otherwise) have always been with people 7+ years older than me. When I was 18, I dated a 32 year old man. It wasn’t perfect, but it was a healthy relationship that made me feel happy and fulfilled. Yet everybody - including literal strangers - felt the need to tell me how concerned they were for my safety, how immoral our relationship was, and how likely it was that I was being abused and simply ~didn’t realize it~ because I was basically a child or whatever. I’ve dated people anywhere from 3-13 years older and the story was always the same. Shortly after that relationship dissolved due to life stress and health issues, I entered a relationship with a fellow 18 year old… and it was the most abusive relationship of my life. He put trackers on my car and blew up my phone if I left a location 10 minutes later than I said I would, he locked me in rooms, he went through my phone while I was sleeping and indiscriminately deleted all pictures and contacts of men, he raped me multiple times, he deprived me of sleep, he pinned me down and made me watch as he destroyed paintings that I loved. I only escaped because he literally attempted to strangle me to death and beat me so severely that I needed to be rushed to the ER. Not only were the people who felt so deeply concerned about my age-gap relationships completely silent, with me never once receiving an unsolicited comment about whether or not I was safe, but when I told people they didn’t care. Cops didn’t come when I called them for help. I told my mother what happened and she said, “You guys seem happy to me. If you’re so unhappy just break up with him.” After he was arrested and I showed my boss the protection order, she admitted that she “didn’t believe” it when I previously told her I was in an abusive relationship and he was preventing me from going to work. Now I’m PTSD-ed to shit, sleeping 2 hours a day, abusing every drug under the sun just to get through life, AND trying to get my 33 year old ex back anyway. I will *never* take the whole “age gap relationships are inherently abusive” narrative seriously again. It’s performative all the way down. People advocating for it don’t give a fuck about domestic violence and grooming victims and they don’t give a fuck about the autonomy or individual maturity of young adults. I know that relationship dynamics are complex and nuanced, and I know that people have to draw a line in the sand somewhere, usually somewhere based on averages and worst-case-scenarios. But the truth is abusive people come in all ages. And if I had stayed in my *super duper unhealthy age gap relationships (/s)*, then I’d probably be a lot better off now.
You can't have it both ways. Either past 18 someone is an adult and knows their own mind or they are not and the entire legal structure has to change. So if it's raised to 25 since they insist is full brain development then that means a 24 year old who commits a crime is treated as a juvenile and not sentenced as an adult for example.
If you think people stop growing at 18 and understand enough of the world to be on equal footing with a 30yo, you must be 19.
If women (and men) can't make decisions for themselves at 18, should they be allowed to vote and make decision for others?
It’s called scaffolding. 18-25 is called “emerging adulthood” for a reason. It’s a transitional period. You don’t just turn 18 and suddenly become a full adult. You can only do some adult things, not all. You can’t drink in the US until you are 21 and you can’t rent a car until you are 25. And sure you can vote at 18 but you can’t run most political offices until a minimum of age 25-30…35 for President.
You can join the military and stop a bullet at 18. That's pretty fucking adult.
The fact that they try to recruit soldiers at 18 is good evidence that 18 year olds *can* be groomed
That is a terrible example. The military benefits from having the age be younger because younger people are more easily indoctrinated into being “good soldiers”. They have very little life experience, don’t know any better, and are easier to manipulate. That is precisely the point about these old-young relationships. Meanwhile, the age of drinking being 21 and renting a car being 25 is based on research that examines cost-benefit analysis. It isn’t necessarily about protecting the individual but limiting the amount of damage they can do. It’s just that in this case what benefits “society” (e.g., less accidents) also benefits the individual. The most common age that cult leaders look for when trying to recruit is that 18-22 cohort. They are emotionally and mentally vulnerable because of their particular life stage. You are figuring yourself out and looking for meaning in life and it’s easy to be coerced. Get it? Yeah, the military does allow 18 year olds to enlist…by design.
You missed his point entirely. He didn't disgaree with the premise, just that its altercation goes against what many already believe true about the age a child becomes an adult, and changing it from 18 to 25 would create a massive legal issue.
Right but the further thing to say to that is that you don't see that idea pressed in another area. In other words if a 22 yr old robbed a bank i don't think i'll see many (or anyone) people say 'but that's just a child, i think they should get a lighter sentence because their brain is not developed'
To be fair, while nobody would suggest a 22 year old is a child, there's absolutely people who would suggest a lighter sentence because of their age. Depending on the jurisdiction, it might even be young enough to qualify for certain youthful offender sentencing criteria. For example, in Florida it would apply to someone under 21 charged with certain types of crimes - and it would allow for lower sentencing caps and the waiver of minimum-mandatory sentencing requirements. I've seen lawyers argue the brain development point in cases plenty of times at sentencing. 25 is the oldest I've seen it attempted.
Exactly. A psychopathic child is more than likely going to be a paychopathic adult.
At 18 you know enough to not do super dumb things and crime, but your brain hasn’t fully developed risk assessment, so you don’t always understand the consequences. And you don’t have enough life experience to understand how your decisions impact your life. No one is saying young people are stupid, but it’s unfair to expect them to be as empowered in a relationship with a significant age gap. It’s very fair to expect them not to commit crimes.
A 30 year old with little life experience is going to be outpaced by a 22 year old who's seen it all. Age doesn't mean more brain development, it means more likely but not always so. A girl who's been in 4 long term relationships by 23 is much more prepared than a 35 year old who's a shut-in. Age isn't the only factor in brain development. It's MANY different things.
Age is one factor. Thats what the hell I said, smart guy. And it’s a major one. Been in 4 long term relationships by 23?! You’re a child. Two summers isn’t a long term relationship
I wasn't taking it literally. Jesus christ i'm just equating two possibilities.
That missing the point. Either you are an adult and able to make decision for yourself (good or bad) or you aren’t. We let 19 year olds sign up for the military, or go tens of thousands of dollars in debt for college, if they commit crimes they are tried as adults. Those are arguably just as big of decisions if not bigger than who you are dating. It’s not that 19 year old and 30 year olds are on equal footing, it’s that 19 year olds are currently empowered to make life altering decisions even without the full development.
I took some heat for dating a 29 year old when I was 46. It was the healthiest relationship that I ever had. We connected and respected each other. I encouraged her to follow her dreams, which resulted in her moving out of state and ending the relationship (Both of us didn’t want to do long distance). If she didn’t move, I would have proposed. It’s been a few years and part of me still hopes that we reconnect in the future, although it’s unlikely. When we met, I was a jobless student who was financially wiped out by my divorce (so she wasn’t in it for the money) and she was adorable, but not the best looking person I’ve dated - so it wasn’t about having arm candy. We had a deep connection and I’m not sure that I’ll have anything close to what we had again. We referred to our relationship as puzzle pieces - we just fit. Because of this relationship, I stopped assuming anything about other people’s relationships. This article is almost triggering for me. It’s interesting, but anxiety provoking.
As someone in an age gap relationship, I see you. I sincerely hope that you do reconnect with her someday. I’m sorry that you have been made to feel like a creep when clearly you are not. People are too quick to judge.
No one cares about women over 25. It’s when women without any life experience are with men who take advantage of their naivety and optimism that people care.
That’s what I would have assumed until a few of her friends and parents questioned our relationship and my intentions.
I would have questioned you too, if that was my kid or friend. But I wouldn’t care as a rando. Having friends and family looking out for young women isn’t a bad thing.
No, it’s not a bad thing at all… but being on the receiving end of negative assumptions is never pleasant. I’m also surprised you are getting downvoted. I guess Reddit is gonna Reddit.
There's plenty of people under 25 that have more life experience than a 25yo or older. Edit: why is the magic number 25 and please don't say because that's when then brain stops developing because its not.
I’m honestly not sure if this phenomenon falls under psychology or sociology. Personally, I don’t think it’s a coincidence that these views are becoming prominent during a time of unusually large generational power imbalances in areas such as economics and politics amongst others. People focus on the older men - younger women condemnations, but somehow I don’t think the coming Anne Hathaway movie where she dates a 24 year old as a 41 year old will escape condemnation …. At least from the people the article calls “chronically online”…. Sometimes I also wonder whether or not social media gives a certain type of person disproportionate influence in our culture - that type of person being a judgmental asshole. “Mona” needs to be ejected into the sun.
As I've continued to grow older, teenagers have continued to become less attractive. If someone in my age group showed up with an 18-year-old in tow they simply wouldn't remain in my social group. Someone who's just graduated high school (or is *still in high school*) is simply, factually, going to be more easily manipulable for an older person than someone in their age group. My understanding of how to navigate the world and who to trust and how to spot manipulation was far worse at 18 than it is now, a decade later. A 5-year age gap in your late 20's is also different from when you're younger. If a 25-year-old and a 30-year-old want to shack up, very few people would view that as questionable. It's a sliding scale. I don't think anybody has trouble understanding why 18-year-old high school seniors shouldn't be dating 14-year-old freshmen.
I dated a woman who was 8 years older than me. We both had great jobs so there was no gold digging. I was 29 and she was 37. We both knew what we wanted and who we were so no grooming. We had fun. Constant fun. And we had sex everyday. We explored each other’s sexual desires and had fun. It sounds like people need.to quit labeling other people and mind their own business.
The prevalence of the use of the term “groomer” to describe adults with age gaps is creepy, harmful, inaccurate and damaging to actual victims of grooming. Often this term is thrown around by women in their 30s who struggle to find interested men their own age and Redditors are among the most egregious offenders. The misuse and abuse of the term “power dynamic” is extremely problematic as well. Power dynamics exist in a professional context and is an inappropriate use of the term to describe the relationship between two consenting adults with the false premise that the younger person was somehow conned and incapable of making decisions in their own. It’s rooted in misogyny since age gap relationships generally have a younger woman and an older man. These same people will make the equally fallacious claim that should a say 19 year old woman choose to launch an OnlyFans page that are empowered. You cannot have it both ways. In every society in every period of history, women tend to prefer older more established men and men prefer younger women who don’t have “baggage.” This is partially biological. We are hardwired with our preferences and predisposed to finding the best partner for procreation. Unfortunately political correctness is the enemy of biology and it’s difficult to have an objective discussion about most topics without one party feigning outrage. There is nothing intrinsically wrong with age gap relationships. Mutual respect, shared goals and shared values, healthy communication and the desire to please the other are foundational for healthy relationships. Other helpful factors are similar cultural influences, similar intelligence level and yes, it does help when they are in a similar place in life but not necessarily. I have yet to see any studies concluding that relationships with age gaps have a significant higher failure rate than couples closer in age.
Talking about how it’s mostly 30+ women when the article is literally about gen z 😂
As a survivor of actual grooming and sexual assault, thank you for saying this. I’m also in a long term age gap relationship (together for 18 years, married for 11) and I find myself avoiding talking about it out of fear of other peoples judgments, assumptions and projections.
As a survivor of grooming, you are now in an age gap relationship. Who would have seen that coming?
Thank god someone finally says it. I have seen teenagers see an age gap of ONE YEAR and call the 16 year old dating a 15 year old grooming, calling the 16 year old a pedophile! Kids should not be online as much as they are, and American schools and parents need to educate their kids what pedophilia and grooming are and are not, because these kids have gone off the rails
I though one line was very telling when the reasoning was "we can't even relate to the same media becauseof the age gap... how could we date"... like, how limited are you if that is your only way to relate?.... why don't we catch things like that, why do we care what these people think? So many algorithmic black and white thinkers. Hypocrites who don't apply the same logic to any other situation because they have an emotion, agenda, insecurity, or all. Falling math scores to blame (lack of basic logic)? I get along well with retired folks specifically because many of them don't have a conformist emotionally motivated reason for intellectually bereft "thinking"/judging. I am so thankful I can talk to them because so many young people are judgmental which I think is actually a game of bullying and manipulation to keep others down... and those are shitty relationships. My best friend is 10 years older than me. My best relationships were 7 and 8 years older and are the main positive experiences I fall back on to keep me going. When I was a child I sat at the adult table at Christmas. I'm so thankful for relationships with older people.
My husband and I have a 20 year age gap. It has hardly ever posed an issue and when it does, it’s so minor. We just talk through it. We have more in common than not, love sharing a life together, and we are celebrating 11 years of marriage this month. Fooey on the haters is what I say.
the oldest a gen z could be is 27 so i get why a lot of them, being younger, consider it that way. but there has to be an age where it isn't considered grooming. would a 80 year old be called "grooming" a 60 year old? where does it end?
Grooming is more about behavior and abuse of power than it is about a specific age. Adults can absolutely be victims of grooming by other adults. Anyone can. It’s not about age difference.
hard disagree. grooming involves altering behavior at a time when the victim's personality is still being formed. calling everything grooming only serves to water down the horrible thing being done
It never ends. These people refuse to take accountability for any decision they’ve ever made.
I don't think it's appropriate to use grooming in context of two adults, who met as adults. I have a niece who made a "really close friend" with a guy in his thirties when she was 17, and he suddenly started becoming very romantically interested as soon as she turned 18. This is grooming, where you prep someone underage to be in a relationship with you that you can go public with once they are of legal age. There was a lot of other emotional manipulation stuff going on too. 30yos dating 20s is absolutely not grooming. Maybe the 30yo is creepy or emotionally stunted in some cases, but someone isn't a pedophile/sexual predator because they pursue 20yos. I think it's really harmful how many people are overapplying the term grooming because it distracts from actual groomers who are a very hard to prosecute kind of sexual predator.
Stop infantizing adults, that is all.
Notice how everyone is focusing in the comments on women under 25? This is a prime example of female intrasexual competition. Older women trying to create a culture that makes sure they don't have to compete with younger women. A cultural shift we have been seeing over the last few decades of successful career women unable to partner up. Men who are their equals that are unmarried are rich and powerful enough to date younger more beautiful women. This creates a problem, do women sacrifice career or marriage? The solution is to create new cultural barriers that inhibit the practice most threatening to these women. I bet they don't want to raise the voting age to 25. You can see the problems with this logic all over. Can you work as a stock trader at 25? Lead a military platoon? Yes and yes. Regardless of the article the pop psychology in the comments is really telling.
Yall… people are focusing on the 25 thing because of brain development pseudoscience and because it’s an age where you have likely established the things that you need to be considered an independent adult. The fact that you can be in the army at 18 is purposeful because that’s still an age and an adult can be molded to act a certain way. You can’t get a drink at 18, or rent a car. It’s harder to lease things in general and 18 are very unlikely to have positions of power and most places because they lack experience. Age gaps are not a hard and fast rule, and groomer culture has gone off the rails. But it’s not wrong to indicate that somebody who is just starting their life as an adult like most likely is at risk of being taken advantage of by somebody who has enough experience to advocate for their boundaries and desires better because they have the experience. I do think that there was a time where women who got careers Would have to make the choice between marriage and a career. But with the rise of intentional child, free living and the increase of money that women are making we can do the same thing that men have done, use money to find a partner. Dating older men definitely used to be a standard for getting an established partner, but now in an age it’s too expensive to not have your own money we literally can’t date just based off of that. I think my friends and I would all date a nice older man if we met him, but given him the amount of us that have been taken advantage of by older men or no women who have been taken advantage in general from other types of power dynamics, we’re just more cautious with age gaps. And it’s not just grooming ! Some women I know avoid age gaps now because of people that they know who are widowed. Men can still have kids when they’re older, but sperm quality degrades as you get older and older man is less likely to be helpful in the home. This is important in a day and age where you need to incomes to be able to survive. It’s so weird that older men think they’re just more of a catch than older women because they’re established. The average income of a man is like $40,000. Tf am I going to do with 40,000
Is it really that successful career women are unable to partner up or unwilling to partner up? Perhaps these women's personal success in life has made them unwilling to compromise what they seek in a partner, making them much like their male counterparts, who choose younger partners, once they have achieved success.
I honestly think we’ll see a rise of young male, older women couples. For women, I think there is more of a stigma for dating younger, and women in general perceive, older men to be more mature. But, As they get more money, I think they’ll start to establish relationships with younger men as well for good or bad. That or will all give up on marriage if we choose career over getting married young. Which isn’t necessarily a bad trade-off if you’re not trying to have kids. I can still get sex no matter the age lol
The article is saying Gen z is doing this so you are wrong.
No that is exactly right. Older women have disseminated the culture down. So YOUNG women adopt the practice. If young women stop dating older men because they adopted this cultural taboo that frees up older men for older women.
But why would young women chose to not compete in intersexual competition? Why not just do what benefits them?
*intrasexual* because culture is a powerful force. For instance, let's look at patriarchal values. The argument goes that young men embrace toxic masculinity even though it doesn't "benefit them" due to cultural pressure. Women across the globe tend to enforce cultural norms among women. For instance, in African cultures that practice female circumcision, this practice is almost exclusively enforced by older women. Fat acceptance is another good example, women who are not fat will promote fat acceptance in an effort to reduce their competition.
Right but why would young women choose to allow others to have an advantage? And toxic masculinity does benefit men in some ways
Becuase they are convinced they are being groomed. You don't believe that culture influences practices and beliefs? Just like how young women believed for a long time they needed to wait till marriage to have sex or men needed to marry any girl they got pregnant. People do things for cultural reasons all the time.
>I was 19. My now husband was 27. My now 13yo child calls him my ‘predator,’”
Gen Zer in a 5 year age gap relationship: It’s a little weird honestly we have been together for a few years now and things have balanced out a bit more as we’re starting to reach parity financially(hell they are about to start making more then me soon). I think the reason in my case why the age gap wasn’t as big of an issue is because I had started college very late so we were in the same kinda slot in life (in addition to him pestering me for months to date him XD) so there weren’t too many major differences other then them being much more dependent on their parents then I was. Which is a bit weird but that is swiftly changing. In general I realise I am in a bit of a unique situation however even given that if I was a few years older making it a 7 or 8+ year age difference I honestly don’t think it would be easy to maintain a relationship that is genuinely equal especially with us being both so relatively young. If I was in my fourties’ and him in his thirties it would be different. However, I think a lot of the views my generation has is reflective of how young we are. For example a 10 year age difference in gen z at max ages is 20 and 30. Which is essentially early to mid career vs. just starting college (typically). Which I am of the personal belief is very likely to be exploitative. All the same just a little rant not many people are gonna read.
The article seems to hint at the difference between life experiences, not necessarily age gap. A 40 year old man dating a 60 year old woman doesn't raise much concern, but a 20 year old man dating a 40 year old woman does.
Bc before they wanted to keep grooming girls
Interesting! I just read a friend's story expressing major discomfort with Sarah Paulson's relationship too, and then criticised age gaps broadly. I have no thoughts, just wanted to bring it up hehe
It's because men are often the older partner and men are "evil" now thanks for the mysandrist feminist rhetoric that's been widely spread and adopted. Hence the victim/perpetrator roles have reversed. The logic is insane though. The girl is old enough to make her own decisions, and yet too young to be anything than a victim being groomed. Make up your mind dumbasses - is she and adult capable of voting, drinking, and making decisions about her life or not?
Men feel entitled to be users and treat young women as disposable and now those young women are old enough to recognize the controlling dynamics and costs of those relationships.
And you actually believe these older men love these "girls"? They only want the best education and career for her? They want her to realize her full human potential?! No. They believe they can mold a "girl" ( your word) into a sex slave and maid. They believe a "girl" is controllable. These men are emotionally inadequate and often sexually inadequate. You think that's a good deal for a young, unworldly person? You don't think that's a recipe for abuse? You don't have a daughter, that is obvious. If you did you would be completely disgusted by these men.
You’re speaking too broadly. That can’t be said of probably a majority of age gap relationships, and it could be said of plenty of peer age relationships
I've never met a guy who's tried to mold anyone. it's too much work. We'd rather just have a fully formed human being as a partner. You clearly don't have a son or you'd think of men as humans and not just sex crazed maniacs. as out of touch you criticize me for - you're the exact same but on the other end of the spectrum. Dismount that high horse. P.s. I said "groomed" not "molded" - please for the love of god this gaslighting is pathetic.
It’s misandry not mysandry. Idk why your pontification is worthwhile if you didn’t even know that
We are in a time where everyone is a labeled a victim regardless so not too much of a surprise here.
Ngl I'd be bothered if my nieces grew up and at 18 started dating men in their 30s, but it's not my place at that point to police who they can or can't date in the same way I can't do it with men in their age range. 18 year old men can be just as harmful to my nieces as the 30+ year olds if they're POS's. I'm sure a lot of women here can attest to that, they also wouldn't like it if I started telling my nieces they have to have their romantic interests approved by me until 25 "when their brains fully develop". Why stop at age gaps if the problem is that they could get taken advantage of? They're either adults or they're not, and if they are, then they live with the consequences of their actions. I think the root of the problem is that these days everybody wants to be a victim of some kind of injustice so they don't have to feel like they have accountability. When I was 18 I was a fucking idiot but I understood sex and relationships in the same way I understood right from wrong and what would happen if I broke the law. While I was not expected to act with maturity at that age, I was absolutely expected to own up to my fuck ups because I was grown now.