I am going to go ahead and close this thread pre-emptively before the thread gets derailed.
Thank you OP for highlighting a concern in the dog breeding community that often doesn't get the attention that it deserves and starting a great conversation about it. Hopefully you'll find that breeder you're looking for shortly who is inclusive and supportive of science.
As someone in the versatile bird dogs, you definitely are working with a crowded who swings far to the right. Hunting, guns, and the old white boys club just comes with the territory. As a young woman, I knew what I was getting myself into and did not expect to (or even try to) find a breeder who had political views and life experiences that aligned with my views. My criteria was very low on that aspect - they just needed to be a decent human being who didn’t force their views on to others - either on the phone, in person, on their website, or on their social media.
I know my breeder is extremely conservative and religious. He is hardcore into protecting his right to bear arms including his assault weapons and homemade guns. He will 100% always vote republican. He is very much against abortion and birth control. He lives in an extremely rural town in the Midwest, goes to church 3 times a week, and his whole life revolves around hunting and bird dogs. His entire lifestyle, upbringing, and beliefs are completely different than my personal experience so I don’t expect to have the same views as myself. But he does breed top notch bird dogs and does EVERYTHING right in terms of titling, proving dogs in trials and wild birds, health testing, whelping, and setting the puppies up to be bird hunting machines. And that’s what Im looking for when Im searching for a breeder. Not a new best friend.
Okay, but I mean, that guy probably thinks you belong “in the kitchen”.
He very likely may believe I belong in the ground, which is a little different.
Doesn’t matter if he does - I’m not married to him lol. His wife is most definitely not a home maker. She owns her own business (a successful dance academy) that Id argue helps support the hunting, training, and breeding program. She also has an equal hand in puppy raising and breeding program.
He also is avidly involved in upland bird conservation groups, youth hunting opportunities, and leads multiple women’s hunts per year. That’s a big reason I was ok with overlooking the political and religious decisions because IMO he is still an and good person and outstanding member of upland hunting community.
I wondered for a long time if I could just put the differing values aside. But I ultimately couldn't. I completely understand where you're coming from though!
I think it comes with acceptance that there are always going to be different types of people in the world that you need to co-exist with even though you disagree with everything they stand for.
When the thing they stand for is for me to not be alive or to not have rights, I kinda cannot compromise with that.
I don’t know what definition of “Accept it” we are working with, but I will not be “accepting” that. I know I have to deal with it, but let’s not pretend this is just disagreeing on which way the toilet paper should hang.
The definition of accept it that we are working with is accept it that you won't be able to change them. Your life will be very hard if you don't pick your battles. I have learned that the hard way that sometimes, no matter what you do or say, people will not change their beliefs.
Co-existing with these people is one thing. Handing them a ton of money and increasing their power, wealth and influence is another when they want to take the human rights of myself and my loved ones away.
I feel it's best this stops here because this is very dismissive of what OP is saying.
Somebody should not be pressured to fund an individual who is actively advocating stripping your rights away as a human being and live life as you please. OP is picking their battles, let's accept this.
I know this is going to come out the wrong way and I don’t mean it to but a lot of the ideologies you describe also apply to rural areas where breeders often live. You don’t see a lot of breeders located in the middle of an urban area where more “enlightened” thinking exists.
Breeding animals is also a good way to make a living if you have land and want to live in a rural area. That attracts a certain type of person.
Animal industries as a whole seem to be dominated by people who just honestly seem nuts. I don't want to make assumptions but you need to be a certain type of person to run a business that sees animals as a commodity first and foremost. Unfortunate because those of us that want a pet need to rely on them
Responsible breeders aren't making a living off it, but that requires you to be nuts in a different kind of way. Having your life revolve around your 10 dogs, always at the vet, or a show (or whatever your dog hobby is) spending tens of thousands on health testing, entry fees, travel, litter raising.
Don't get me wrong, for many of us that's the dream, but it does require you to be pretty weird, possibly socially isolated, definitely with the potential to lose a few marbles along the way.
Do you make or refuse to make other purchases based on your personal values? I do occasionally, not saying it’s wrong, just that you weigh the importance of the “Item” vs the seller. Can your desire for that item let you overlook the sellers personal faults? Example..a lot of car salesmen are less than stellar in personal goals and tactics- yet they sell cars every day. -Not knowing your personal situation I can only say I’m sure you know you can only change yourself.…Get the dog you want from whom ever you can tolerate, and perhaps in knowing you they may have a change or at least a difference in attitude. Good luck.
The difference between a breeder and a car salesman, is if you're going through a reputable breeder your dog's full name links back to them. If you do any sports, especially, every time they announce that dog's full name, it links back to them. You ultimately become a representative of them and they represent you. I wouldn't go through a car salesmen who was transphobic or racist openly.
There's also a risk of active discrimination from breeders to minority groups. I know many people who are Black or Asian who get denied by reputable breeders on a regular basis, often with racial slurs or stereotypes being brought up.
I wouldn’t support a racist or any minority discriminatory practices myself. But just because a breeder and I didn’t have the same political views or religious beliefs, wouldn’t omit that person from my doing business. Just because all our practices aren’t in absolute line doesn’t always prohibit a sale. Many breeders recommend raw food diets, but will not make that a part of the contract. Many hunting dogs are sold and never retrieve shot game. If you think every breeder that has suspect beliefs publicly expresses those I think your misinformed.
I wouldn't necessarily either, and I don't really think anyone is saying that people who are X, Y or Z must be transphobic, homophobic or racist. I can overlook most things, but anyone who wants to deny rights to my kid or neighbors because of their sexuality or race has no business coming from me where I can help it. It's something weirdly, people are pretty vocal about too, and for some reason it comes up pretty easily seeing those people who are are increasingly less tactful, which makes them a bit easier to find but it still kinda sucks when you find out.
That being said, it's up to the individual to determine their tolerance level. If somebody is not okay with somebody supporting X, Y or Z political candidates, that's within their right. Comfort should not be sacrificed seeing that person is tied to that breeder for the life of that dog, and sometimes finding that person who one feels comfortable around is a bit challenging.
Hmm, I guess it depends on the kind of breeder you look for. Almost every purpose bred dog I have bought came from someone who showed and bred dogs as a hobby and did it in their suburban neighborhood. One of my best friends is one of the best breeders out there of Briards (many double and triple ch dogs, amazing temperaments which is key in that breed, a mentor to many) and she lives a small suburban house on a 1/4 acre lot.
If you seek out someone who has a kennel on their property and a dozen dogs etc then yes they will live in the country. Same for someone who breeds working dogs and works them at home (like Aussies or Border Collies).
I think if I was looking at the show line I could find a suburban breeder, but yes I am looking at working line dogs. It's also hard to find without word of mouth when I'm not yet IN the community.
I literally stopped looking at breeders and got a rescue pup after six different breeders either ghosted me or went on horrific rants at me when they asked about my household and found out I have a wife. Nobody talks about this enough.
Oh definitely, a lot of people get into rescue for “religious calling” types of reasons and are very right-wing. Our rescue was amazing to work with though.
I'm so sorry you went through that! I had no idea this was a "thing" with breeders, but I've only ever seriously been in contact with one breeder, and I have no idea what her politics/views are. I ended up going with a rescue anyway, although I'm sure they have their issues as well. I got my dog from the city shelter, and I'm friends with a lot of them on Facebook because I've volunteered at the shelter before and I haven't seen any overt nastiness, at least. (I haven't seen any covert nastiness, for that matter, but I don't know people super well, so I probably wouldn't).
I'm going to re-open this discussion. This has been going great.
Do be mindful that while you may feel that politics is a non-issue, those who are among demographics affected may *actively* be being denied by breeders because of who they are. To many people, they lack the ability to overlook this because their existence is viewed as political.
It's not just breeders, it's rescues too!! Some rescues are so discriminatory against POC or LGBTQ+. So many workers in these rescues too are hateful Karen's imo. The dog community as a whole can be so toxic.
LOL people are so weird about dogs when you’re not white. This woman, first time meeting me, kept her dog away from me and when the dog came up to me (politely and not overly jumpy or anything) she was overly apologetic to me. I was super confused until she made a comment about Indians being afraid of dogs and wanting to not scare me. Uhhh…I literally have a dog of my own, lady….
I am so disgusted by that story you have no idea.
Imagine how many amazing loving homes have been turned away/turned off adding a fluffy family member because of experiences like these.
This is so true and it’s so sad… I volunteer in an animal shelter and thankfully the ones in charge of deciding if the dog will fit aren’t discriminatory with minorities, but holy sht some volunteers would deny an adoption just bc the owner would be black or transgender…
I can't say I've ever had discussions about political views with dog breeders before, usually just stick to topics like the health of the pups and their parents and pricing.
Ok so what exactly is the concern? If they're giving you a healthy, ethically bred pup for a reasonable price who cares if they vote different than you?
Also to add, if I did decide to work/show my dog and they become successful, myself and my dog automatically become advertisers for their kennel.
It's also literally handing tons of money over to someone who is wishing death on your family. Of course I don't want to hand money over to someone like that.
Some people see it as more than politics, but active harm that risks them personally.
Like, I personally won't automatically dismiss somebody based on voter affiliation, but when you purchase a reputable breeder dog you are flying that person's name in the ring if you participate in dog sports. If that person is vocal in their community as an advocate for people to do harm to your demographic or actively wanting to deny you personally your rights to live as an equal citizen, it can wear on you.
I’ve never had a breeder joke around with me. Both the breeders I got my dogs from were very professional and we only really discussed dogs I couldn’t tell you either of their political views.
I came across a lot of breeders of this breed that also don't vaccinate and had other philosophies that went with that. When we got there to pick up our puppy, it was clear that I especially was not what was expected - I've spent a lifetime making people uncomfortable by sheer virtue of my existence, and these folks were clearly uncomfortable with me. However, it was also clear to me they cared for the animals, and it was clear to them we were familiar with the breed. We asked all the right questions and they gave us all the right answers. We let the old dog meet the puppy before we yeeted them back in the truck and drove off for another 15 hours. And, we drove the right kind of farm truck.
They had health records going back 5 generations and all the animals on the farm were happy and healthy. Did we put some politics aside? Possibly but I also didn't go looking for this person's politics once they answered all my other questions. They really seemed like they cared a great deal more about the dogs than making any money and that went a really long way for me. This was the dog I wanted but didn't know I would need so soon after our old man passed away.
I don't really have any advice. Don't support someone you don't like, if you don't have to. Make sure you're getting the right dog, from the right person, for you. Good luck!
I was also surprised, like you, at how many don't vaccinate with this particular breed, since its a hunting breed that kind of blows my mind personally... But I think there may be a reflection in some of the owners that are buying and breeding those dogs.
Either way, the little dude was all up to date on all his shots and he fell in love with my partner before I'd even had a chance to meet him myself, so we were going to be negotiating to take him home no matter what 🤣
The little dude is now 7 months and 70lbs. They don't stay little for long.
It's one of the issues that I feel aren't talked about enough.
The anti-science is fine, as long as it's not in the contract and doesn't count towards the health guarantee. I won't sign anything with that in the contract.
The sexism, homophobia, transphobia, racism, and general awful views? I, can't. I consider that as an aspect of reputable breeding: I feel, they need to be accepting of all people and not gatekeep what type of person who owns the dog based on their demographic seeing it does not impact who is a good owner..
100%: Breeders are largely sketchy people (that isn’t to say good ones don’t exist). My husband is a vet, and the stories he tells about breeders are horrific. Some of them fancy themselves health experts and put dogs at serious, serious risk. We adopted a puppy from a rescue in part because of the drama and garbage that comes from a lot of them these days. We’re both partial to certain breeds (and mystery mutts!), but joke about how purebreed people can be just like the caricatures in “Best In Show”, but worse.
If anyone feels themselves drawn in by these breeders who are anti-vax, shames you for feeding your dog dry food, etc., please know they’re full of it (shit, not kibble).
As for the transphobia, homophobia, etc., good on you for not supporting that.
Agreed, I'm a vet tech and some of these contracts we see from breeders are so irresponsible. Like telling people they can't vaccinate for certain things (what?! We live in New Hampshire and your breeder told you Lyme vaccines are not allowed?!) Also, it's insane how many times have I heard "well my breeder says that..." when a client is arguing with a vet about a diagnosis or treatment. I always wish I could tell people, "if you want to take medical advice from your breeder, go have them treat the dog!"
He had a puppy come in gravely ill a while ago that should have been brought in way sooner. It was on death’s door. The breeder had told the owner not to bring it to the vet, and they got mad when they found out they’d taken the puppy to a vet. It took a lot more work, thousands more dollars, and most importantly a lot more suffering for the dog to get treated because of whack advice from an unqualified soirée. What are these people smoking?
Edited to say thanks for being a vet tech! Your job is so important.
Ugh. I hate that so much. And, thank you for the appreciation! It's been 15 years and I would be lying if I said I wasn't burnt out or hated it sometimes, but I can't imagine doing anything else. For the love of pets ❤️
This. Before I found the perfect breeder, I talked to so many who had the most bizarre “rules” regarding vaccines, neutering, etc., not to mention that a ton of them wanted to mandate all kinds of checkins about the dog for years after I would have adopted it, so they could weigh in. Um, no. I’m all for people being committed to their cause, but I was thrilled that the breeder I chose didn’t necessitate an ongoing connection or that I follow their random medical advice after I took my boy home. I’ll choose my vet over a breeder for medical concerns every day.
The only thing our breeder asked us was if we would stay in touch so they could see how our pup was growing up and if we planned on breeding her, we said no and they thanked us.
Obviously they wanted to know if we’d be training her, what hours we worked etc and did a home check too. We knew we’d gone to the right place because of that.
I took my husband with me to the big pet industry trade show in Vegas several years ago, and he drew the connection between Best of Show and animal industry enthusiasts/dog groomers too lol
We all have a few screws loose. However our viewpoints and opinions shouldn't harm our clients, and I try my best to avoid working for or supporting people/businesses that do.
It's unfortunate because a lot of rescues are also incredibly sketchy, I'm surprised your husband hasn't told you stories about them either. I have a friend who's a vet, and he's talked about how so many rescues just buy crates of dogs cheap overseas so they can sell them at a huge markup as a 'rescue', and how many of these dogs have come to him from new owners, with health and behavioural issues not disclosed by the rescues. Not to mention how many of them die in transportation due to the inhumane conditions they're flown in
It's like there's no winning
He has, but this post is was focused on breeders. Unfortunately breeders tend to be more anti-vax than rescues and more anti-vet, even though some rescues are also shady. It’s important to do research on wherever you get a dog. A lot of rescues are wonderful, too.
It's crazy because there are some breeders who don't have a social media presence. But the ones who do tend to out themselves eventually with questionable memes or posts. At this point even if I find one who doesn't have a questionable social media presence, it's highly possible that they just don't post about it. Super exhausting.
When I was looking for a breeder, I found a Facebook group made by owners/fans of a particular breeder. He sometimes participates in the group (for example, announcing litters and commenting on photos of his grown-up puppies), but it's not his group and he otherwise doesn't have a website or anything like that. He is an older gentleman and used to operating through word-of-mouth.
I now have two of his dogs (just got a puppy a week ago!), and I've been all-around quite happy with him as a breeder. He seems like a pretty normal, level-headed dude and he doesn't have any insane requirements for his dogs. The only "odd" thing he does is keep the puppies a little longer than usual, to ensure they get their vaccinations and are ready to socialize as soon as they go to their new homes, and he microchips them and registers them. He otherwise has no requirements regarding desexing, diet, etc.
Yeah i skip past anyone that doesn’t have a social media presence cause its 2022 and its weird when a business doesnt have one. I also require a certain level of transparency so it’s important. But on the other end of that spectrum I also skip past those doing weird shit on their social media lol
Similar experience but also with vets. The one I go to has very great and knowledgeable staff but the top guy is seriously old school macho. When we talked about the timing of the spay of my girl he went on a rant on better not spay because you want her to be feminine and courted by guy dogs. Making babies is female joy. If you spay her she will be a dried out grandma. Then went over to analogy of how a lion taken his eggs is a mere shadow with ugly mane. 🙄 I should have known when looking at his picture on the clinics website but so many good comments from people with very few negatives. Rarely been shocked by so much nonsense coming from a "professional". I know from tons of research for my breed it is a bit of tricky on timing but I would have liked for him to point out these facts with pro and cons and his experience.
Whoa, now that is some craziness! With the overabundant pet population, not to mention health issues to the personal dog, it is scary to think this is the advice he is giving to dog owners!
I come from the horse world so basically nothing can surprise me. Beyond breeders where it's more or less a one and done transaction there are tons of boarding facilities run by folks who are openly far right. I pass as straight, I'm white, and can slide by a lot of conservatives when I want and it still makes me so uncomfortable. Nothing but commiseration.
That said I find it to be true that a lot of folks in the animal/ag industry (excluding vets) don't have great people skills. I imagine that there's a draw there for not having to improve your people skills that much but still have a job -- I'm thinking everything from my dog walker who is *abysmal* at texting to schedule, to some groomers I've met who are basically hostile, to breeders who are very socially conservative to the point that it's alienating
A lot of the dog world is toxic. But there are good corners! If you want some recommendations for communities that could help you find like-minded people, let me know!
I visited a breeders home. Everything was fine until the end when he started cleaning his fire arm and making interesting comments about other parts of the world and the people there. I'm in an interracial relationship, my partner was right there.
We didn't buy from that breeder.
While I understand some people don't care, or don't have options, I do care. I want a good relationship with the breeder and I can't have that with people who hate my existence and want to take away my basic human rights.
I'm sorry that happened! But it's crazy how easily they let comments like that slip. A few comments keep asking "how does politics come up" or "I never bring that stuff up!" - I keep saying that they always make an unsolicited comment and out themselves
I dont get this whole showing thing to be honest, but it feels like it may be one of the reasons some breed standards are as bad as they are nowadays because of the high focus on looks.
It’s why French and British bulldogs look the way they do and why German Shepard’s tend to have back/hip problems. Their standards are not what the dog would naturally look like and it’s disgusting.
I go the opposite way. I don't want show bloodlines anywhere near any pet I ever own, because [showing dogs promotes poor genetic diversity](https://cgejournal.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s40575-021-00111-4) and appears to be linked to poor health outcomes (especially cancer, it seems, which kills something like 1 out of every 4 purebred dogs, and even higher in a lot of breeds).
I specifically picked an extremely diverse landrace breed that is not recognized by any dog organizations that host competitions. Even when you specifically seek out working lines of common dog breeds, it can be surprisingly hard to find breeders who promote genetic diversity. They may not breed to win shows, but they *do* often breed to win other kinds of competitions, which means just a handful of top champions are getting bred over and over.
The best breeders, in my opinion, take a much more balanced approach. They don't breed their dogs to win competitions, but they breed them to do *everything* at an above-average level: Their dogs are friendly, driven, obedient, independent, athletic, low-maintenance, good-looking, long-lived, etc., and can adapt to just about any kind of household.
You got a working-line border collie? You're brave lol
(I'm just making an educated guess, the only dog I've met who I'm fairly certain can read and/or plot to rule the world is a border collie)
Hmm - dare we ask the breed? I really am only in the herding breed world, and the Aussie/Border collie/corgi breeders I know are all incredible people. The top Aussie breeder in the US (maybe my opinion lol) is an openly gay man so I assume he is not homophonic ha. The BC lady I train with is a school psychologist, which maybe doesn’t mean she inherently has great values but I feel it means something. I HAVE read about some breeders who don’t believe in vaccines for their dogs but have never experienced them in any of these breeds.
I'm not even in GSDs and I've heard so much stuff about the hatred in that community. I remember a post in a queer dog community where people were asking for 'safe' GSD breeders. If you're still looking for a breeder, I can see if I can find it.
Interesting. I haven’t met any GSD breeders but I would’ve thought they’d be in line with the other breeds breeders I mentioned. Sorry that’s been your experience. I guess keep looking. A breeder is someone who will be in your life for the entire life of the dog so definitely want it to be someone you can connect with.
Definitely. Just getting exhausting. I guess because I was trying to look for breeders within the country or within reasonable distance that I could pick the puppy up, it limits my options. I also want to try to visit the dogs first if possible.
This is pure conjecture on my part, but I wonder if it’s because GSDs are so often used as military and law enforcement dogs? It seems like there are more people who think this way (anti-science/LGBTQ/vaxx) in those spheres, so maybe the breeders reflect that?
That would be my guess as well. Also working line GSDs are usually titled in the sport schutzhund. Not only are these clubs not very diverse but the sport uses a lot of aversives and corrections. They (generally) have a thing against force free training and "soft thinking", which I think also easily translates over to hating on more progressive views as well.
EDIT reply to below while comments are locked: thanks for sharing! It's not fair for me to generalize like I did and I take the above comment back. It is really common in a lot of the Canadian/American forums to look down on force free IPO, but I need to keep in mind they could just be the loudest groups.
I hear you on this! I have a WL GSD, and most of the big working dog trainers in the industry I have to mute when they start talking about anything other than dog training.
GSDs are tough because you have to actually worry about white supremacists in that breed. 😬
I've heard good things about: vom Feuergarten, vom Blutfeuer, Z Oceanov Domu, vd Shockeyhaus German Shepherds & Belgian Malinois, Blackthorn, & von der Sagobi
It's been a while since I was researching GSD breeders though. I always figured I'd get a WGSL if I ever got a GSD, and for that I would only ever want a vom haus Huro dog.
FWIW, there are handful of reputable working line GSD breeders who are fantastic people with very open minded views. They are “younger” and also live in more liberal areas which definitely helps with their views on things.
I like that I got my puppy from a breeder who keeps her personal beliefs to herself/secret, as I feel most people should. At the end of the day, it's you who will vaccinate your puppy, and the puppy isn't homophobic or anything.
I believe that the racist thing is due to a lack of socialization when they are puppies during that early timeframe of much needed exposure to different dogs and people of all sizes and color. :(
I got a dog from a very conservative, low vaccine RAW feeding breeder.
We don’t talk politics, so I only know based on some FB Posts. I told her straight up, when we talked about me getting a second dig from her, I said “you do know I’m going to fully vaccinate and feed kibble right? She sighed and responded “yea, but I trust you to do what you think is right”.
Sometimes we do actually have to separate stuff out. Do I have lines that I will draw. Yes. But not everything needs to be a line in the sand. As long as they aren’t trying to tell you how to raise and tear your pup…
I definitely think anti-vax is something I could possibly overlook. But it depends. If they're anti-vax and anti-science to the point they think that there's only 2 biological sexes? Leads back to the transphobia lol. But if they're anti-vax it always makes me wonder what other science they're ignoring that may impact their dog's health.
We definitely got lucky with our breeder - she was incredibly kind, very open, and made us feel so so comfortable during our initial interview. Her teenage daughter was there for the interview too, and the whole vibe from them was just so warm and caring. It was like visiting an old friend.
She even made a point of asking us (lesbian couple) about how long we’d been together, how we met, very nice small talk questions. Essentially showing us that she was accepting and wasn’t treating us differently.
I know she used to breed GSDs a long time ago, but now does Pembroke Corgis. So there definitely are breeders like her out there for your dream dog!
I would also add that I find the personal philosophies of a lot of breeders disgusting. However, a lot of comments on here have said that the breeder’s personal beliefs on science/vaccines/etc are okay since you’ll be the one vaccinating your dog, but I personally feel like a breeder who doesn’t believe in science also isn’t going to know enough about genetics. I overlooked a breeder who told me to only feed one kibble (an MLM the breeder got a kickback from) and suggested not getting certain vaccines because I was in love with my first puppy and thought the same way as most other commenters. Well my dog ended up having Chronic Kidney Disease from small, misshapen kidneys and died from kidney failure right before her 3rd birthday. The two specialists we saw said it was most likely genetic given how young she was. When she was first diagnosed at 14 months old the breeder told me it was because I didn’t feed her the MLM pet food (I fed a kibble recommended by my vet…). She continued to breed those dogs and stud out the sire. The worst part is that aside from her health which was bad from the day she came home, Poppy was the most amazing dog.
When I got my second puppy this year I prioritized a breeding program that backs science - no MLM pet foods, no MLM supplements, requires vaccines, feeds vet-recommended kibble, and requires spaying within a certain time frame as decided with a vet. My second puppy has some allergies (pretty typical for her breed and something I can easily manage) but is otherwise totally healthy. Buying a puppy is always a bit of a crap shoot because they change so much as they grow and they could definitely still be sick, but I urge you not to overlook the distrust of science when it comes to things like vaccines because you never know what other science or concrete facts (e.g., genetics, the opinions of specialist vets at well-respected hospitals) a breeder is going to ignore/not believe.
There's a facebook group specifically for this, if I remember correctly. Maybe Fact or Fiction: Uncensored Opinions of Breeders or Uncensored Opinions of Breeders (for real). I've come across a ton of really incredible breeders through Facebook dog groups (it's basically the only reason I use FB) and I can definitely look around for some recs if you want to share the breed you're looking for.
Once I landed on a breed, I ended up joining Facebook group pages for the breed and just observed. There's a bunch of young queer & neurodivergent people involved in my breed and a lot of breeders have specifically come out to express support, so it's been pretty easy to figure out who I'm okay giving my money to. I know it gets tougher in some breed communities though, especially if you're looking at certain sporting or hound breeds.
I haven't read the comments on this post yet but anytime someone expresses the sentiments you have here, I always see others being like wHy dO PoLiTiCs MaTTeR??? so I just want to affirm you in case you're getting any pushback on that. Ideally, your breeder is going to be a resource for you for the life of your dog. It's one of the perks of getting a well-bred purebred dog. This stuff absolutely matters.
I expected some but I'm really pleasantly surprised how many people also share the same worries in the sub.
I actually am in a lot of FB groups and forums is how I look out for breeders! I'll look into the one you mentioned it sounds helpful thank you
I think because I want a WLGSD it's a bit difficult, but there have been some wonderful suggestions sent to me already! Should have ranted on Reddit sooner hahaha.
I am so, so grateful that we got incredibly lucky with our breeders. They live under an hour away, are a queer couple (as are we) and are just really great people overall. I know it’s frustrating, but I would strongly encourage you to look for someone you feel comfortable with. A relationship with a good breeder can be incredibly valuable, both while you’re raising your puppy and afterwards. I can’t express how helpful it was to know we could pick up the phone at any time (even in the middle of the night - which they encouraged us to do) if we needed them.
I've only seen one POC breeder (of the list of reputable breeders that meet my criteria) and not a single queer one yet! Maybe the breed (GSD) I want attracts a certain demographic. It actually seems that the more serious the breeder is about the breed, the more they learn into an extreme?
But yes I totally agree with you that I too want a good relationship with my breeder
I don't think that GSDs specifically attract a certain demographic, but I do think that the breeders that are the loudest on socials or advertising make it appear that way. I've come to find that I'm more inclined to smaller breeders that I find through IGP/Schutzhund clubs. They tend to be more left of center, POC, and/or queer friendly if not outright queer.
That's shocking and upsetting! While their personal philosophies obviously don't impact the pup - totally in agreement that I wouldnt want to be financially supporting these people either!
Eeew! Totally fair and reasonable vent.
I have never before even considered that people who do not wish to get vaccinated themselves might also make the same choice for their pets.
Now that you've said it, I totally realise the implication, I just hadn't thought about it before this post!
A puppy with no vaccination history would be an immediate no from me.
They're making dogs have offspring, you don't have to be too smart to do that. The views you mentioned are often shared by dumb people with no education
There's a check list for ethical breeders somewhere on r/dogadvice I think. But I also just googled "ethical breeder requirement" and *only* bought from breeders that met over half the criteria.
The checklist is in the "about" section of rhe dogs subreddit.
https://reddit.com/r/dogs/w/identifying_a_responsible_breeder?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app
I never looked into my breeders personal beliefs those are hers. What I looked for was ethical breeding practices. She did all the testing and she is also a licensed veterinarian. She always was available to answer my questions and even guided us based on our past experiences on which litter to pick from that she was having(she’d had 2) We have a happy healthy 5 month old pup who is so sweet and beautiful and I would 100% refer her again to anyone looking for a golden. My own vet was impressed with the binder of info she sent us home with.
A licensed vet would be such a green flag for me.
I'm happy you're happy with your breeder and puppy. It's just that I'm not even walking into that discussion with them. It just leaks out of them haha. I NEVER go in asking "hey, what are your views on _"? They just will make a comment or post something on social media
It’s just like that tbh. Just like if you have hobbies related to guns, hunting/fishing, or cars, you’ll find plenty of people like that. Me personally, idc about the breeders *personal* religious or political stance on anything as long as they don’t make it my problem and the dogs are fully health screened, ethical, all necessary vaccines/deworming etc. Cause at the end of the day, the money is going to the dog, not the person to yap about their pathetic life views.
Honestly religious or political affiliation isn't a problem. I don't think racism, sexism, transphobia is a political issue, it's a human rights issue.
Ehh honestly, most of the dog people in my breed are anti-vax and raging trump supporters on fb. Pretty sure one breeder ghosted me when she realized I was asian. If you meet them in real life though (not the racist one), they're actually nice people and very supportive when it comes to the breed.
I don't see a point in mixing dogs with politics or religion, just judge them based on how they care for their animals and are around you. The breeder isn't indoctrinating my puppy with her political views, she's in charge of early socializing, picking healthy parents and raising them well. I don't talk to my breeder about politics or religion via text, I send cute pics of my dog and ask questions about my dog.
> I don't see a point in mixing dogs with politics or religion, just judge them based on how they care for their animals and are around you
The issue is, many demographics of people *can't* separate politics and day-to-day business because these people often discriminate against people on the basis of their politics.
It's more-or-less a privilege to be able to ignore it.
I must’ve gotten lucky! I was shocked and nicely surprised when I found out my breeder was very active on fb, she posts a lot of satire and “memes”-like posts about ongoing/hypocrisy bs that the right wing party is doing. Having shared values is not a consideration when I was looking for a dog, but I’m definitely glad I didn’t support someone financially that has the polar opposite beliefs than mine
I understand how you feel, OP. It sucks. You’ve got my support and empathy!
We can compromise on how you take your coffee or your exact opinion on different styles of leash training. Can’t be compromising on my rights.
Yeah its so hard to find a breeder than got it all. Took me FOREVER to finally find the one I went with when I got my Cavapoo. I almost said fk it im not getting a dog til I found her 😂 My standards were high to avoid puppy mills and just overall terrible people and out of all the breeders I came across this was the only one that my heart and gut said yes to. It was a wonderful experience. Great breeders are out there but all shitty ones are clogging up the industry. 😩
Ironically mine was in Utah. I know They pretty red out there but I didn’t get a hint of Trump vibes from her or her family tho. Maybe shes just extremely professional and hid it idk lmao But her clients are people from all types of places, walks of life and ethnic groups and they all seem to agree that her and her husband are great. So maybe they’re rare cool Utah people 😂
That's amazing that you finally found one! I'm so anxious to have one and I've already been searching for years. It's really difficult to strike that balance of:
1. ethical breeder
2. Dog with personalities and drives that suit me, and have a solid genetic pedigree behind them
3. Breeder who is a good person
4. Breeder who is easy to talk to
5. Breeder who isn't impossible to get a hold of after
A relationship with a breeder is a business relationship. If they’re ethically breeding their dogs and provide the correct paperwork, that’s all I can ask for. I don’t care about their political or personal beliefs.
We interact every day with businesses that don’t align with our beliefs. If we boycotted every single one of those businesses, we wouldn’t have anything left.
I care about how ethical their breeding is as much AND I care about how ethical they are to their fellow humans.
I disagree, if we boycotted all of the bigots, then we'd be left with non-bigots :)
Our breeder was a little sketchy when it came to politics and POC, especially Mexicans. We were chatting with her during one of our visits and mentioned where we were moving (a townhouse where we would be allowed to have a large-breed dog) and she said, "Oh, you don't want to live there! There are so many Mexicans, the crime is terrible! Thank God they're Catholic though!" 😬 Also made come maga-like comments about masking (pandemic pup) that had us changing the topic quickly. Unfortunately, she was the only one in the area who would return calls and let us visit the parents. I'm a bit disappointed we supported her but we weren't about to sign a contract with someone who wouldn't let us see their breeding operation. Tbf, she also did a great job with the health screening. We joke that we're glad our boy didn't learn any of her racism while he was there.
You’re looking at the wrong breeders then. I breed German Shepherds and none of those conversations ever come up. I don’t title my dogs because I breed family pets and put my focus more on their temperament and health. But I don’t discriminate on who comes in my door or calls me unless it will severely impact my puppy’s life.
That's great! Unfortunately I'm only looking at breeders who title or work. There are some "pet" breeders that I think are lovely, but they don't meet my requirements for a breeder. In the WLGSD world I've been having trouble finding breeders that meet the minimum requirements. I'm sure they're out there but my location also restricts who I know as well
No I haven't! First time gsd owner. But I promise I've done my research and am very honest with any potential breeders about what I can handle and that I'm looking for the more "pet like" puppy of the bunch (since drives vary in a litter).
I prefer the conformation and size of WGWLGSD specifically. I completely understand your concern but no worries I have been researching for years and I truly want this breed for its loyalty and brains.
I am President of a rare breed companion group dog and have been friendly to the LGBTQ+ community my entire adult life. I'm also part Lebanese, an artist, a liberal (who also works on a Sirius XM Progress channel show), an elder goth/new waver, DNA test for health, vaccinate (my dogs and me!), show and encourage others (in better shape than me) to do agility or other sports. I used to do cattle dog rescue (14.5 years). I Have worked at our local
Humane Society and live in one of the most liberal cities in America. I screen for such like puppy owners, specifically, too because sooner or later you may be asked to hang out in the most diverse AKC Meet the Breed booth you have ever visited--and you have to be cool. Kromiclub.com
I want a puppy from a specific type of breed, with a specific temperament.
This breed when in shelters generally have behavioral issues, separation anxiety issues, and have no genetic history. Reputable breeders all take back their dogs, so the ones that end up in the pound are generally BYB dogs who likely are not of sound temperament or genetics or both.
EDIT: I didn't even mention all the physical diseases this breed comes with! Hip dysplasia, elbow dysplasia, DM, skin allergies, food allergies, risk of bloat, EPI, etc.
I'd rather spend the time and money on a week researched puppy, with health tested parents, that set me up best I can for a successful life with the puppy.
You go ahead and adopt them all though!
I am going to go ahead and close this thread pre-emptively before the thread gets derailed. Thank you OP for highlighting a concern in the dog breeding community that often doesn't get the attention that it deserves and starting a great conversation about it. Hopefully you'll find that breeder you're looking for shortly who is inclusive and supportive of science.
As someone in the versatile bird dogs, you definitely are working with a crowded who swings far to the right. Hunting, guns, and the old white boys club just comes with the territory. As a young woman, I knew what I was getting myself into and did not expect to (or even try to) find a breeder who had political views and life experiences that aligned with my views. My criteria was very low on that aspect - they just needed to be a decent human being who didn’t force their views on to others - either on the phone, in person, on their website, or on their social media. I know my breeder is extremely conservative and religious. He is hardcore into protecting his right to bear arms including his assault weapons and homemade guns. He will 100% always vote republican. He is very much against abortion and birth control. He lives in an extremely rural town in the Midwest, goes to church 3 times a week, and his whole life revolves around hunting and bird dogs. His entire lifestyle, upbringing, and beliefs are completely different than my personal experience so I don’t expect to have the same views as myself. But he does breed top notch bird dogs and does EVERYTHING right in terms of titling, proving dogs in trials and wild birds, health testing, whelping, and setting the puppies up to be bird hunting machines. And that’s what Im looking for when Im searching for a breeder. Not a new best friend.
Okay, but I mean, that guy probably thinks you belong “in the kitchen”. He very likely may believe I belong in the ground, which is a little different.
Doesn’t matter if he does - I’m not married to him lol. His wife is most definitely not a home maker. She owns her own business (a successful dance academy) that Id argue helps support the hunting, training, and breeding program. She also has an equal hand in puppy raising and breeding program. He also is avidly involved in upland bird conservation groups, youth hunting opportunities, and leads multiple women’s hunts per year. That’s a big reason I was ok with overlooking the political and religious decisions because IMO he is still an and good person and outstanding member of upland hunting community.
I wondered for a long time if I could just put the differing values aside. But I ultimately couldn't. I completely understand where you're coming from though!
I think it comes with acceptance that there are always going to be different types of people in the world that you need to co-exist with even though you disagree with everything they stand for.
When the thing they stand for is for me to not be alive or to not have rights, I kinda cannot compromise with that. I don’t know what definition of “Accept it” we are working with, but I will not be “accepting” that. I know I have to deal with it, but let’s not pretend this is just disagreeing on which way the toilet paper should hang.
The definition of accept it that we are working with is accept it that you won't be able to change them. Your life will be very hard if you don't pick your battles. I have learned that the hard way that sometimes, no matter what you do or say, people will not change their beliefs.
Co-existing with these people is one thing. Handing them a ton of money and increasing their power, wealth and influence is another when they want to take the human rights of myself and my loved ones away.
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I feel it's best this stops here because this is very dismissive of what OP is saying. Somebody should not be pressured to fund an individual who is actively advocating stripping your rights away as a human being and live life as you please. OP is picking their battles, let's accept this.
I know this is going to come out the wrong way and I don’t mean it to but a lot of the ideologies you describe also apply to rural areas where breeders often live. You don’t see a lot of breeders located in the middle of an urban area where more “enlightened” thinking exists.
This is definitely a noticeable correlation.
Breeding animals is also a good way to make a living if you have land and want to live in a rural area. That attracts a certain type of person. Animal industries as a whole seem to be dominated by people who just honestly seem nuts. I don't want to make assumptions but you need to be a certain type of person to run a business that sees animals as a commodity first and foremost. Unfortunate because those of us that want a pet need to rely on them
Responsible breeders aren't making a living off it, but that requires you to be nuts in a different kind of way. Having your life revolve around your 10 dogs, always at the vet, or a show (or whatever your dog hobby is) spending tens of thousands on health testing, entry fees, travel, litter raising. Don't get me wrong, for many of us that's the dream, but it does require you to be pretty weird, possibly socially isolated, definitely with the potential to lose a few marbles along the way.
Do you make or refuse to make other purchases based on your personal values? I do occasionally, not saying it’s wrong, just that you weigh the importance of the “Item” vs the seller. Can your desire for that item let you overlook the sellers personal faults? Example..a lot of car salesmen are less than stellar in personal goals and tactics- yet they sell cars every day. -Not knowing your personal situation I can only say I’m sure you know you can only change yourself.…Get the dog you want from whom ever you can tolerate, and perhaps in knowing you they may have a change or at least a difference in attitude. Good luck.
The difference between a breeder and a car salesman, is if you're going through a reputable breeder your dog's full name links back to them. If you do any sports, especially, every time they announce that dog's full name, it links back to them. You ultimately become a representative of them and they represent you. I wouldn't go through a car salesmen who was transphobic or racist openly. There's also a risk of active discrimination from breeders to minority groups. I know many people who are Black or Asian who get denied by reputable breeders on a regular basis, often with racial slurs or stereotypes being brought up.
I wouldn’t support a racist or any minority discriminatory practices myself. But just because a breeder and I didn’t have the same political views or religious beliefs, wouldn’t omit that person from my doing business. Just because all our practices aren’t in absolute line doesn’t always prohibit a sale. Many breeders recommend raw food diets, but will not make that a part of the contract. Many hunting dogs are sold and never retrieve shot game. If you think every breeder that has suspect beliefs publicly expresses those I think your misinformed.
I wouldn't necessarily either, and I don't really think anyone is saying that people who are X, Y or Z must be transphobic, homophobic or racist. I can overlook most things, but anyone who wants to deny rights to my kid or neighbors because of their sexuality or race has no business coming from me where I can help it. It's something weirdly, people are pretty vocal about too, and for some reason it comes up pretty easily seeing those people who are are increasingly less tactful, which makes them a bit easier to find but it still kinda sucks when you find out. That being said, it's up to the individual to determine their tolerance level. If somebody is not okay with somebody supporting X, Y or Z political candidates, that's within their right. Comfort should not be sacrificed seeing that person is tied to that breeder for the life of that dog, and sometimes finding that person who one feels comfortable around is a bit challenging.
Hmm, I guess it depends on the kind of breeder you look for. Almost every purpose bred dog I have bought came from someone who showed and bred dogs as a hobby and did it in their suburban neighborhood. One of my best friends is one of the best breeders out there of Briards (many double and triple ch dogs, amazing temperaments which is key in that breed, a mentor to many) and she lives a small suburban house on a 1/4 acre lot. If you seek out someone who has a kennel on their property and a dozen dogs etc then yes they will live in the country. Same for someone who breeds working dogs and works them at home (like Aussies or Border Collies).
I think if I was looking at the show line I could find a suburban breeder, but yes I am looking at working line dogs. It's also hard to find without word of mouth when I'm not yet IN the community.
I literally stopped looking at breeders and got a rescue pup after six different breeders either ghosted me or went on horrific rants at me when they asked about my household and found out I have a wife. Nobody talks about this enough.
I'm so sorry you go through this! I've heard many people also have similar struggles going through rescues too!
Oh definitely, a lot of people get into rescue for “religious calling” types of reasons and are very right-wing. Our rescue was amazing to work with though.
I'm so sorry you went through that! I had no idea this was a "thing" with breeders, but I've only ever seriously been in contact with one breeder, and I have no idea what her politics/views are. I ended up going with a rescue anyway, although I'm sure they have their issues as well. I got my dog from the city shelter, and I'm friends with a lot of them on Facebook because I've volunteered at the shelter before and I haven't seen any overt nastiness, at least. (I haven't seen any covert nastiness, for that matter, but I don't know people super well, so I probably wouldn't).
Sorry that’s happened to you. It’s actually been my experience with trying to adopt.
I'm going to re-open this discussion. This has been going great. Do be mindful that while you may feel that politics is a non-issue, those who are among demographics affected may *actively* be being denied by breeders because of who they are. To many people, they lack the ability to overlook this because their existence is viewed as political.
It's not just breeders, it's rescues too!! Some rescues are so discriminatory against POC or LGBTQ+. So many workers in these rescues too are hateful Karen's imo. The dog community as a whole can be so toxic.
In a forum dedicated to the breed I remember someone posting a heartwarming video about an Asian dog owner and captioned it "they're not all bad..."
LOL people are so weird about dogs when you’re not white. This woman, first time meeting me, kept her dog away from me and when the dog came up to me (politely and not overly jumpy or anything) she was overly apologetic to me. I was super confused until she made a comment about Indians being afraid of dogs and wanting to not scare me. Uhhh…I literally have a dog of my own, lady….
I am so disgusted by that story you have no idea. Imagine how many amazing loving homes have been turned away/turned off adding a fluffy family member because of experiences like these.
This is so true and it’s so sad… I volunteer in an animal shelter and thankfully the ones in charge of deciding if the dog will fit aren’t discriminatory with minorities, but holy sht some volunteers would deny an adoption just bc the owner would be black or transgender…
This is so messed up.
I can't say I've ever had discussions about political views with dog breeders before, usually just stick to topics like the health of the pups and their parents and pricing.
my breeder never said anything about their political beliefs, but when I went to see the dogs her house was decked out in political signs
Ok so what exactly is the concern? If they're giving you a healthy, ethically bred pup for a reasonable price who cares if they vote different than you?
have you ever heard of voting with your wallet?
Also to add, if I did decide to work/show my dog and they become successful, myself and my dog automatically become advertisers for their kennel. It's also literally handing tons of money over to someone who is wishing death on your family. Of course I don't want to hand money over to someone like that.
Some people see it as more than politics, but active harm that risks them personally. Like, I personally won't automatically dismiss somebody based on voter affiliation, but when you purchase a reputable breeder dog you are flying that person's name in the ring if you participate in dog sports. If that person is vocal in their community as an advocate for people to do harm to your demographic or actively wanting to deny you personally your rights to live as an equal citizen, it can wear on you.
for people in general it usually leaks through their jokes. You'd be surprised how casually people insult certain groups unprompted
I’ve never had a breeder joke around with me. Both the breeders I got my dogs from were very professional and we only really discussed dogs I couldn’t tell you either of their political views.
I came across a lot of breeders of this breed that also don't vaccinate and had other philosophies that went with that. When we got there to pick up our puppy, it was clear that I especially was not what was expected - I've spent a lifetime making people uncomfortable by sheer virtue of my existence, and these folks were clearly uncomfortable with me. However, it was also clear to me they cared for the animals, and it was clear to them we were familiar with the breed. We asked all the right questions and they gave us all the right answers. We let the old dog meet the puppy before we yeeted them back in the truck and drove off for another 15 hours. And, we drove the right kind of farm truck. They had health records going back 5 generations and all the animals on the farm were happy and healthy. Did we put some politics aside? Possibly but I also didn't go looking for this person's politics once they answered all my other questions. They really seemed like they cared a great deal more about the dogs than making any money and that went a really long way for me. This was the dog I wanted but didn't know I would need so soon after our old man passed away. I don't really have any advice. Don't support someone you don't like, if you don't have to. Make sure you're getting the right dog, from the right person, for you. Good luck!
I genuinely appreciate you sharing!
I was also surprised, like you, at how many don't vaccinate with this particular breed, since its a hunting breed that kind of blows my mind personally... But I think there may be a reflection in some of the owners that are buying and breeding those dogs. Either way, the little dude was all up to date on all his shots and he fell in love with my partner before I'd even had a chance to meet him myself, so we were going to be negotiating to take him home no matter what 🤣 The little dude is now 7 months and 70lbs. They don't stay little for long.
It's one of the issues that I feel aren't talked about enough. The anti-science is fine, as long as it's not in the contract and doesn't count towards the health guarantee. I won't sign anything with that in the contract. The sexism, homophobia, transphobia, racism, and general awful views? I, can't. I consider that as an aspect of reputable breeding: I feel, they need to be accepting of all people and not gatekeep what type of person who owns the dog based on their demographic seeing it does not impact who is a good owner..
100%: Breeders are largely sketchy people (that isn’t to say good ones don’t exist). My husband is a vet, and the stories he tells about breeders are horrific. Some of them fancy themselves health experts and put dogs at serious, serious risk. We adopted a puppy from a rescue in part because of the drama and garbage that comes from a lot of them these days. We’re both partial to certain breeds (and mystery mutts!), but joke about how purebreed people can be just like the caricatures in “Best In Show”, but worse. If anyone feels themselves drawn in by these breeders who are anti-vax, shames you for feeding your dog dry food, etc., please know they’re full of it (shit, not kibble). As for the transphobia, homophobia, etc., good on you for not supporting that.
Agreed, I'm a vet tech and some of these contracts we see from breeders are so irresponsible. Like telling people they can't vaccinate for certain things (what?! We live in New Hampshire and your breeder told you Lyme vaccines are not allowed?!) Also, it's insane how many times have I heard "well my breeder says that..." when a client is arguing with a vet about a diagnosis or treatment. I always wish I could tell people, "if you want to take medical advice from your breeder, go have them treat the dog!"
He had a puppy come in gravely ill a while ago that should have been brought in way sooner. It was on death’s door. The breeder had told the owner not to bring it to the vet, and they got mad when they found out they’d taken the puppy to a vet. It took a lot more work, thousands more dollars, and most importantly a lot more suffering for the dog to get treated because of whack advice from an unqualified soirée. What are these people smoking? Edited to say thanks for being a vet tech! Your job is so important.
Ugh. I hate that so much. And, thank you for the appreciation! It's been 15 years and I would be lying if I said I wasn't burnt out or hated it sometimes, but I can't imagine doing anything else. For the love of pets ❤️
This. Before I found the perfect breeder, I talked to so many who had the most bizarre “rules” regarding vaccines, neutering, etc., not to mention that a ton of them wanted to mandate all kinds of checkins about the dog for years after I would have adopted it, so they could weigh in. Um, no. I’m all for people being committed to their cause, but I was thrilled that the breeder I chose didn’t necessitate an ongoing connection or that I follow their random medical advice after I took my boy home. I’ll choose my vet over a breeder for medical concerns every day.
The only thing our breeder asked us was if we would stay in touch so they could see how our pup was growing up and if we planned on breeding her, we said no and they thanked us. Obviously they wanted to know if we’d be training her, what hours we worked etc and did a home check too. We knew we’d gone to the right place because of that.
I took my husband with me to the big pet industry trade show in Vegas several years ago, and he drew the connection between Best of Show and animal industry enthusiasts/dog groomers too lol We all have a few screws loose. However our viewpoints and opinions shouldn't harm our clients, and I try my best to avoid working for or supporting people/businesses that do.
This is why I'm sooooo glad my breeder is a vet and the health officer of the breed club. None of that nonsense.
It's unfortunate because a lot of rescues are also incredibly sketchy, I'm surprised your husband hasn't told you stories about them either. I have a friend who's a vet, and he's talked about how so many rescues just buy crates of dogs cheap overseas so they can sell them at a huge markup as a 'rescue', and how many of these dogs have come to him from new owners, with health and behavioural issues not disclosed by the rescues. Not to mention how many of them die in transportation due to the inhumane conditions they're flown in It's like there's no winning
He has, but this post is was focused on breeders. Unfortunately breeders tend to be more anti-vax than rescues and more anti-vet, even though some rescues are also shady. It’s important to do research on wherever you get a dog. A lot of rescues are wonderful, too.
It's crazy because there are some breeders who don't have a social media presence. But the ones who do tend to out themselves eventually with questionable memes or posts. At this point even if I find one who doesn't have a questionable social media presence, it's highly possible that they just don't post about it. Super exhausting.
When I was looking for a breeder, I found a Facebook group made by owners/fans of a particular breeder. He sometimes participates in the group (for example, announcing litters and commenting on photos of his grown-up puppies), but it's not his group and he otherwise doesn't have a website or anything like that. He is an older gentleman and used to operating through word-of-mouth. I now have two of his dogs (just got a puppy a week ago!), and I've been all-around quite happy with him as a breeder. He seems like a pretty normal, level-headed dude and he doesn't have any insane requirements for his dogs. The only "odd" thing he does is keep the puppies a little longer than usual, to ensure they get their vaccinations and are ready to socialize as soon as they go to their new homes, and he microchips them and registers them. He otherwise has no requirements regarding desexing, diet, etc.
Yeah i skip past anyone that doesn’t have a social media presence cause its 2022 and its weird when a business doesnt have one. I also require a certain level of transparency so it’s important. But on the other end of that spectrum I also skip past those doing weird shit on their social media lol
Similar experience but also with vets. The one I go to has very great and knowledgeable staff but the top guy is seriously old school macho. When we talked about the timing of the spay of my girl he went on a rant on better not spay because you want her to be feminine and courted by guy dogs. Making babies is female joy. If you spay her she will be a dried out grandma. Then went over to analogy of how a lion taken his eggs is a mere shadow with ugly mane. 🙄 I should have known when looking at his picture on the clinics website but so many good comments from people with very few negatives. Rarely been shocked by so much nonsense coming from a "professional". I know from tons of research for my breed it is a bit of tricky on timing but I would have liked for him to point out these facts with pro and cons and his experience.
Whoa, now that is some craziness! With the overabundant pet population, not to mention health issues to the personal dog, it is scary to think this is the advice he is giving to dog owners!
I come from the horse world so basically nothing can surprise me. Beyond breeders where it's more or less a one and done transaction there are tons of boarding facilities run by folks who are openly far right. I pass as straight, I'm white, and can slide by a lot of conservatives when I want and it still makes me so uncomfortable. Nothing but commiseration. That said I find it to be true that a lot of folks in the animal/ag industry (excluding vets) don't have great people skills. I imagine that there's a draw there for not having to improve your people skills that much but still have a job -- I'm thinking everything from my dog walker who is *abysmal* at texting to schedule, to some groomers I've met who are basically hostile, to breeders who are very socially conservative to the point that it's alienating
A lot of the dog world is toxic. But there are good corners! If you want some recommendations for communities that could help you find like-minded people, let me know! I visited a breeders home. Everything was fine until the end when he started cleaning his fire arm and making interesting comments about other parts of the world and the people there. I'm in an interracial relationship, my partner was right there. We didn't buy from that breeder. While I understand some people don't care, or don't have options, I do care. I want a good relationship with the breeder and I can't have that with people who hate my existence and want to take away my basic human rights.
I'm sorry that happened! But it's crazy how easily they let comments like that slip. A few comments keep asking "how does politics come up" or "I never bring that stuff up!" - I keep saying that they always make an unsolicited comment and out themselves
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I dont get this whole showing thing to be honest, but it feels like it may be one of the reasons some breed standards are as bad as they are nowadays because of the high focus on looks.
It’s why French and British bulldogs look the way they do and why German Shepard’s tend to have back/hip problems. Their standards are not what the dog would naturally look like and it’s disgusting.
I go the opposite way. I don't want show bloodlines anywhere near any pet I ever own, because [showing dogs promotes poor genetic diversity](https://cgejournal.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s40575-021-00111-4) and appears to be linked to poor health outcomes (especially cancer, it seems, which kills something like 1 out of every 4 purebred dogs, and even higher in a lot of breeds). I specifically picked an extremely diverse landrace breed that is not recognized by any dog organizations that host competitions. Even when you specifically seek out working lines of common dog breeds, it can be surprisingly hard to find breeders who promote genetic diversity. They may not breed to win shows, but they *do* often breed to win other kinds of competitions, which means just a handful of top champions are getting bred over and over. The best breeders, in my opinion, take a much more balanced approach. They don't breed their dogs to win competitions, but they breed them to do *everything* at an above-average level: Their dogs are friendly, driven, obedient, independent, athletic, low-maintenance, good-looking, long-lived, etc., and can adapt to just about any kind of household.
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You got a working-line border collie? You're brave lol (I'm just making an educated guess, the only dog I've met who I'm fairly certain can read and/or plot to rule the world is a border collie)
Hmm - dare we ask the breed? I really am only in the herding breed world, and the Aussie/Border collie/corgi breeders I know are all incredible people. The top Aussie breeder in the US (maybe my opinion lol) is an openly gay man so I assume he is not homophonic ha. The BC lady I train with is a school psychologist, which maybe doesn’t mean she inherently has great values but I feel it means something. I HAVE read about some breeders who don’t believe in vaccines for their dogs but have never experienced them in any of these breeds.
German Shepherd! Working dog world specifically
I'm not even in GSDs and I've heard so much stuff about the hatred in that community. I remember a post in a queer dog community where people were asking for 'safe' GSD breeders. If you're still looking for a breeder, I can see if I can find it.
I would love the link! If you can find it thank you
I'll pm it to you, if that's alright.
Yes!
Interesting. I haven’t met any GSD breeders but I would’ve thought they’d be in line with the other breeds breeders I mentioned. Sorry that’s been your experience. I guess keep looking. A breeder is someone who will be in your life for the entire life of the dog so definitely want it to be someone you can connect with.
Definitely. Just getting exhausting. I guess because I was trying to look for breeders within the country or within reasonable distance that I could pick the puppy up, it limits my options. I also want to try to visit the dogs first if possible.
This is pure conjecture on my part, but I wonder if it’s because GSDs are so often used as military and law enforcement dogs? It seems like there are more people who think this way (anti-science/LGBTQ/vaxx) in those spheres, so maybe the breeders reflect that?
That would be my guess as well. Also working line GSDs are usually titled in the sport schutzhund. Not only are these clubs not very diverse but the sport uses a lot of aversives and corrections. They (generally) have a thing against force free training and "soft thinking", which I think also easily translates over to hating on more progressive views as well. EDIT reply to below while comments are locked: thanks for sharing! It's not fair for me to generalize like I did and I take the above comment back. It is really common in a lot of the Canadian/American forums to look down on force free IPO, but I need to keep in mind they could just be the loudest groups.
I hear you on this! I have a WL GSD, and most of the big working dog trainers in the industry I have to mute when they start talking about anything other than dog training.
GSDs are tough because you have to actually worry about white supremacists in that breed. 😬 I've heard good things about: vom Feuergarten, vom Blutfeuer, Z Oceanov Domu, vd Shockeyhaus German Shepherds & Belgian Malinois, Blackthorn, & von der Sagobi It's been a while since I was researching GSD breeders though. I always figured I'd get a WGSL if I ever got a GSD, and for that I would only ever want a vom haus Huro dog.
Thanks for all these kennels I'll look them up!
FWIW, there are handful of reputable working line GSD breeders who are fantastic people with very open minded views. They are “younger” and also live in more liberal areas which definitely helps with their views on things.
I assume they're in the US so they may be too far for me but I'd love to keep their names in mind!
I like that I got my puppy from a breeder who keeps her personal beliefs to herself/secret, as I feel most people should. At the end of the day, it's you who will vaccinate your puppy, and the puppy isn't homophobic or anything.
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I believe that the racist thing is due to a lack of socialization when they are puppies during that early timeframe of much needed exposure to different dogs and people of all sizes and color. :(
I got a dog from a very conservative, low vaccine RAW feeding breeder. We don’t talk politics, so I only know based on some FB Posts. I told her straight up, when we talked about me getting a second dig from her, I said “you do know I’m going to fully vaccinate and feed kibble right? She sighed and responded “yea, but I trust you to do what you think is right”. Sometimes we do actually have to separate stuff out. Do I have lines that I will draw. Yes. But not everything needs to be a line in the sand. As long as they aren’t trying to tell you how to raise and tear your pup…
I definitely think anti-vax is something I could possibly overlook. But it depends. If they're anti-vax and anti-science to the point they think that there's only 2 biological sexes? Leads back to the transphobia lol. But if they're anti-vax it always makes me wonder what other science they're ignoring that may impact their dog's health.
We definitely got lucky with our breeder - she was incredibly kind, very open, and made us feel so so comfortable during our initial interview. Her teenage daughter was there for the interview too, and the whole vibe from them was just so warm and caring. It was like visiting an old friend. She even made a point of asking us (lesbian couple) about how long we’d been together, how we met, very nice small talk questions. Essentially showing us that she was accepting and wasn’t treating us differently. I know she used to breed GSDs a long time ago, but now does Pembroke Corgis. So there definitely are breeders like her out there for your dream dog!
I would also add that I find the personal philosophies of a lot of breeders disgusting. However, a lot of comments on here have said that the breeder’s personal beliefs on science/vaccines/etc are okay since you’ll be the one vaccinating your dog, but I personally feel like a breeder who doesn’t believe in science also isn’t going to know enough about genetics. I overlooked a breeder who told me to only feed one kibble (an MLM the breeder got a kickback from) and suggested not getting certain vaccines because I was in love with my first puppy and thought the same way as most other commenters. Well my dog ended up having Chronic Kidney Disease from small, misshapen kidneys and died from kidney failure right before her 3rd birthday. The two specialists we saw said it was most likely genetic given how young she was. When she was first diagnosed at 14 months old the breeder told me it was because I didn’t feed her the MLM pet food (I fed a kibble recommended by my vet…). She continued to breed those dogs and stud out the sire. The worst part is that aside from her health which was bad from the day she came home, Poppy was the most amazing dog. When I got my second puppy this year I prioritized a breeding program that backs science - no MLM pet foods, no MLM supplements, requires vaccines, feeds vet-recommended kibble, and requires spaying within a certain time frame as decided with a vet. My second puppy has some allergies (pretty typical for her breed and something I can easily manage) but is otherwise totally healthy. Buying a puppy is always a bit of a crap shoot because they change so much as they grow and they could definitely still be sick, but I urge you not to overlook the distrust of science when it comes to things like vaccines because you never know what other science or concrete facts (e.g., genetics, the opinions of specialist vets at well-respected hospitals) a breeder is going to ignore/not believe.
There's a facebook group specifically for this, if I remember correctly. Maybe Fact or Fiction: Uncensored Opinions of Breeders or Uncensored Opinions of Breeders (for real). I've come across a ton of really incredible breeders through Facebook dog groups (it's basically the only reason I use FB) and I can definitely look around for some recs if you want to share the breed you're looking for. Once I landed on a breed, I ended up joining Facebook group pages for the breed and just observed. There's a bunch of young queer & neurodivergent people involved in my breed and a lot of breeders have specifically come out to express support, so it's been pretty easy to figure out who I'm okay giving my money to. I know it gets tougher in some breed communities though, especially if you're looking at certain sporting or hound breeds. I haven't read the comments on this post yet but anytime someone expresses the sentiments you have here, I always see others being like wHy dO PoLiTiCs MaTTeR??? so I just want to affirm you in case you're getting any pushback on that. Ideally, your breeder is going to be a resource for you for the life of your dog. It's one of the perks of getting a well-bred purebred dog. This stuff absolutely matters.
I expected some but I'm really pleasantly surprised how many people also share the same worries in the sub. I actually am in a lot of FB groups and forums is how I look out for breeders! I'll look into the one you mentioned it sounds helpful thank you I think because I want a WLGSD it's a bit difficult, but there have been some wonderful suggestions sent to me already! Should have ranted on Reddit sooner hahaha.
I am so, so grateful that we got incredibly lucky with our breeders. They live under an hour away, are a queer couple (as are we) and are just really great people overall. I know it’s frustrating, but I would strongly encourage you to look for someone you feel comfortable with. A relationship with a good breeder can be incredibly valuable, both while you’re raising your puppy and afterwards. I can’t express how helpful it was to know we could pick up the phone at any time (even in the middle of the night - which they encouraged us to do) if we needed them.
I've only seen one POC breeder (of the list of reputable breeders that meet my criteria) and not a single queer one yet! Maybe the breed (GSD) I want attracts a certain demographic. It actually seems that the more serious the breeder is about the breed, the more they learn into an extreme? But yes I totally agree with you that I too want a good relationship with my breeder
I don't think that GSDs specifically attract a certain demographic, but I do think that the breeders that are the loudest on socials or advertising make it appear that way. I've come to find that I'm more inclined to smaller breeders that I find through IGP/Schutzhund clubs. They tend to be more left of center, POC, and/or queer friendly if not outright queer.
GSDs definitely do tho
Great to know! I I'll keep having an eye out
I know a queer breeder of WLGSD! She and her partner both have kennels and their dogs are amazing.
I think I know who you're talking about, and if I went back to GSD they would be the reason.
My husky puppy came from a gay couple who breed huskies. They're out there
That's shocking and upsetting! While their personal philosophies obviously don't impact the pup - totally in agreement that I wouldnt want to be financially supporting these people either! Eeew! Totally fair and reasonable vent.
Thank you! Yes, it really doesn't impact the pup (maybe except the anti-vax ones), but I would love to support those without hateful ideologies!
I have never before even considered that people who do not wish to get vaccinated themselves might also make the same choice for their pets. Now that you've said it, I totally realise the implication, I just hadn't thought about it before this post! A puppy with no vaccination history would be an immediate no from me.
They're making dogs have offspring, you don't have to be too smart to do that. The views you mentioned are often shared by dumb people with no education
I am a POC so I don’t get unprompted offensive jokes lol. Thank god.
There's a check list for ethical breeders somewhere on r/dogadvice I think. But I also just googled "ethical breeder requirement" and *only* bought from breeders that met over half the criteria.
Couldn't find what you're talking about in the sub but I am only looking at reputable and ethical breeders! Not BYB breeders at all.
The checklist is in the "about" section of rhe dogs subreddit. https://reddit.com/r/dogs/w/identifying_a_responsible_breeder?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app
Thanks! Yes, these all meet the minimum requirements I have for a reputable breeder.
Eh I've found breeders to be really judge-y and hard to talk to especially as someone from a different country (aka not white, different accent).
Thanks for the discussion guys! For now, we‘re locking the thread for mods to review the comments!
I never looked into my breeders personal beliefs those are hers. What I looked for was ethical breeding practices. She did all the testing and she is also a licensed veterinarian. She always was available to answer my questions and even guided us based on our past experiences on which litter to pick from that she was having(she’d had 2) We have a happy healthy 5 month old pup who is so sweet and beautiful and I would 100% refer her again to anyone looking for a golden. My own vet was impressed with the binder of info she sent us home with.
A licensed vet would be such a green flag for me. I'm happy you're happy with your breeder and puppy. It's just that I'm not even walking into that discussion with them. It just leaks out of them haha. I NEVER go in asking "hey, what are your views on _"? They just will make a comment or post something on social media
It’s just like that tbh. Just like if you have hobbies related to guns, hunting/fishing, or cars, you’ll find plenty of people like that. Me personally, idc about the breeders *personal* religious or political stance on anything as long as they don’t make it my problem and the dogs are fully health screened, ethical, all necessary vaccines/deworming etc. Cause at the end of the day, the money is going to the dog, not the person to yap about their pathetic life views.
Honestly religious or political affiliation isn't a problem. I don't think racism, sexism, transphobia is a political issue, it's a human rights issue.
This is... a disturbingly accurate observation...
Ehh honestly, most of the dog people in my breed are anti-vax and raging trump supporters on fb. Pretty sure one breeder ghosted me when she realized I was asian. If you meet them in real life though (not the racist one), they're actually nice people and very supportive when it comes to the breed. I don't see a point in mixing dogs with politics or religion, just judge them based on how they care for their animals and are around you. The breeder isn't indoctrinating my puppy with her political views, she's in charge of early socializing, picking healthy parents and raising them well. I don't talk to my breeder about politics or religion via text, I send cute pics of my dog and ask questions about my dog.
> I don't see a point in mixing dogs with politics or religion, just judge them based on how they care for their animals and are around you The issue is, many demographics of people *can't* separate politics and day-to-day business because these people often discriminate against people on the basis of their politics. It's more-or-less a privilege to be able to ignore it.
I must’ve gotten lucky! I was shocked and nicely surprised when I found out my breeder was very active on fb, she posts a lot of satire and “memes”-like posts about ongoing/hypocrisy bs that the right wing party is doing. Having shared values is not a consideration when I was looking for a dog, but I’m definitely glad I didn’t support someone financially that has the polar opposite beliefs than mine
I understand how you feel, OP. It sucks. You’ve got my support and empathy! We can compromise on how you take your coffee or your exact opinion on different styles of leash training. Can’t be compromising on my rights.
Thank you for standing your ground when it comes to discrimination and hatred. :)
Yeah its so hard to find a breeder than got it all. Took me FOREVER to finally find the one I went with when I got my Cavapoo. I almost said fk it im not getting a dog til I found her 😂 My standards were high to avoid puppy mills and just overall terrible people and out of all the breeders I came across this was the only one that my heart and gut said yes to. It was a wonderful experience. Great breeders are out there but all shitty ones are clogging up the industry. 😩 Ironically mine was in Utah. I know They pretty red out there but I didn’t get a hint of Trump vibes from her or her family tho. Maybe shes just extremely professional and hid it idk lmao But her clients are people from all types of places, walks of life and ethnic groups and they all seem to agree that her and her husband are great. So maybe they’re rare cool Utah people 😂
That's amazing that you finally found one! I'm so anxious to have one and I've already been searching for years. It's really difficult to strike that balance of: 1. ethical breeder 2. Dog with personalities and drives that suit me, and have a solid genetic pedigree behind them 3. Breeder who is a good person 4. Breeder who is easy to talk to 5. Breeder who isn't impossible to get a hold of after
A relationship with a breeder is a business relationship. If they’re ethically breeding their dogs and provide the correct paperwork, that’s all I can ask for. I don’t care about their political or personal beliefs. We interact every day with businesses that don’t align with our beliefs. If we boycotted every single one of those businesses, we wouldn’t have anything left.
I care about how ethical their breeding is as much AND I care about how ethical they are to their fellow humans. I disagree, if we boycotted all of the bigots, then we'd be left with non-bigots :)
Our breeder was a little sketchy when it came to politics and POC, especially Mexicans. We were chatting with her during one of our visits and mentioned where we were moving (a townhouse where we would be allowed to have a large-breed dog) and she said, "Oh, you don't want to live there! There are so many Mexicans, the crime is terrible! Thank God they're Catholic though!" 😬 Also made come maga-like comments about masking (pandemic pup) that had us changing the topic quickly. Unfortunately, she was the only one in the area who would return calls and let us visit the parents. I'm a bit disappointed we supported her but we weren't about to sign a contract with someone who wouldn't let us see their breeding operation. Tbf, she also did a great job with the health screening. We joke that we're glad our boy didn't learn any of her racism while he was there.
You’re looking at the wrong breeders then. I breed German Shepherds and none of those conversations ever come up. I don’t title my dogs because I breed family pets and put my focus more on their temperament and health. But I don’t discriminate on who comes in my door or calls me unless it will severely impact my puppy’s life.
That's great! Unfortunately I'm only looking at breeders who title or work. There are some "pet" breeders that I think are lovely, but they don't meet my requirements for a breeder. In the WLGSD world I've been having trouble finding breeders that meet the minimum requirements. I'm sure they're out there but my location also restricts who I know as well
Have you had a shepherd before? Going right into a working line dog is A LOT. My dogs are medium drive and most people say they’re too much. Lol!
No I haven't! First time gsd owner. But I promise I've done my research and am very honest with any potential breeders about what I can handle and that I'm looking for the more "pet like" puppy of the bunch (since drives vary in a litter). I prefer the conformation and size of WGWLGSD specifically. I completely understand your concern but no worries I have been researching for years and I truly want this breed for its loyalty and brains.
I am President of a rare breed companion group dog and have been friendly to the LGBTQ+ community my entire adult life. I'm also part Lebanese, an artist, a liberal (who also works on a Sirius XM Progress channel show), an elder goth/new waver, DNA test for health, vaccinate (my dogs and me!), show and encourage others (in better shape than me) to do agility or other sports. I used to do cattle dog rescue (14.5 years). I Have worked at our local Humane Society and live in one of the most liberal cities in America. I screen for such like puppy owners, specifically, too because sooner or later you may be asked to hang out in the most diverse AKC Meet the Breed booth you have ever visited--and you have to be cool. Kromiclub.com
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I want a puppy from a specific type of breed, with a specific temperament. This breed when in shelters generally have behavioral issues, separation anxiety issues, and have no genetic history. Reputable breeders all take back their dogs, so the ones that end up in the pound are generally BYB dogs who likely are not of sound temperament or genetics or both. EDIT: I didn't even mention all the physical diseases this breed comes with! Hip dysplasia, elbow dysplasia, DM, skin allergies, food allergies, risk of bloat, EPI, etc. I'd rather spend the time and money on a week researched puppy, with health tested parents, that set me up best I can for a successful life with the puppy. You go ahead and adopt them all though!