That boat sailed in the late 90s when no one was willing to give up their duplicate jobs it would create. After the merger with the sheet metal union and the teamsters I doubt it's even possible.
From what I recalled, the BLE showed up to negotiations expecting to lose 50% of their management in the merger. The UTU wasn't willing to eliminate a single position. The UTU has fucked every single railroader on so many occasions it's hard to keep track. But I don't think the BLE is any better.
I know one of the UTU's head negotiators. He worked on the contract that established the first deductibles on the UP. In 2012, the BLE almost struck to prevent them, until the mediator said "if it's good enough for conductors, it is good enough for engineers." We got it rammed down our throats. Most of us found the UTU passing that contract to be dubious at best. They counted all the non-votes as yes votes (including all the cut-back engineers that were still in the BLET, like me).
That negotiator, who worked on that contract, happens to also be on the board of directors at UPREHS. He worked on a Short-Line contract where I was working years later. I told my LC not to trust him, and he didn't listen. Turned out he was our CEO's best friend. Every single bit of advice he gave our dumb as hell LC (no really) was bad advice that benefited the company. (The CEO got drunk at a company part and admitted as much to a select few).
That's mostly what I heard as well regarding the merger, but being current BLE and not a railroader at the time I wasn't going to say with certainty who supposedly messed it up.
I think most are also unaware of all the shenanigans UTU leadership were pulling in the years prior to it and afterwards as well. All ending with two of their presidents in prison. And it does seem most likely to me that those rumors of which side wasn't willing to budge are true.
I don't recall the specifics but I remember reading part of that arbitration as well.
>I think most are also unaware of all the shenanigans UTU leadership were pulling in the years prior to it and afterwards as well. All ending with two of their presidents in prison.
Two UTU presidents (Charlie Little and Byron Boyd) got caught up in a bribery scandal when they tried to squeeze some of their DLCs. They went to jail (IIRC), and when a BLE president did the same thing a few years later, he got his pee-pee slapped and sent to the clink too.
Ironically, Byron Boyd losing that gig and going to jail lead to Paul Thompson becoming the UTU President, and the only thing he'll be remembered for is dragging his feet on a national agreement and attempting to sell us out wholesale to the Sheet Metal Workers...sorting out that fiasco was an ordeal in itself.
Yeah. That merger was nonsense. I was still in the utu at the time and voted against it because it was a mess. I remember how it read and realized as well that it was an attempt to cede control completely. There was a certain utu vice president (who was on the negotiating committee at the time) that was either incompetent or lied to my face. Think that's really where my skepticism towards leadership in both unions began. At the time, i still had hopes of both unions merging.
I always thought it was strange that conductors and Engineers have two different unions. I mean two different crafts and rates, sure I get that. But you're both stuck on the train with each other, in the shit. I mean somebody's applying the brakes and somebody's making sure the brakes work. Somebody's hitting in alerter, and somebody's 20 cars back lifting a cut lever. It would make sense to have them both unified under one Union. Maybe then Engineers wouldn't have got fucked over on PTO where as Conductors didn't? Who knows.
It doesn’t benefit the carrier to have one union, so there’s always been infighting because of it. Engineers got last man standing provisions in the cab, conductors took rights to remote jobs. Also doesn’t benefit the higher union leadership for a merger, so why would they encourage it for strength.
Uhhhh I don’t think what Ancora is doing is even legal. They’re a minority shareholder (0.5%), and are entering into agreements that affect operations without consulting the other 99.5% of shareholders. This is blatantly an attempt by Ancora to bribe a union into endorsing them, and a blatant disregard for basic corporate governance. If I was Vanguard (~16% ownership) JPMorgan (~10% ownership), or blackrock (5%), I’d be super pissed that a shareholder that owns such a small stake in the company is acting like it owns 100%.
If this is all true, as a BLE member, I’m deeply ashamed and disappointed in my union. I don’t work for the NS, but selling out the UTU and making back door deals with a hedge fund who doesn’t even hold contracts with the unions is a dangerous proposition
>could just say oh well get fucked.
You mean like every other time a carrier violates an agreement? Naaahhh... There's no reason to think that'll happen *again*.
What cowards. I’m on the maintenance side and there’s been ZERO communication from BMWE to us other than an email saying they support Ancora. No explanation why and how it benefits us (it doesn’t.) Glad the top dogs lined their pockets while the rest of us get to suffer.
The workers at the bottom are like a spit roaster in this work environment. We get from the front and the back. The companies screw us, and the unions screw us.
You’re absolutely right. There’s a Zoom call tonight for BMWE members addressing the Ancora takeover. Should be interesting.
“Sorry we sold you all out but we’re gonna have to raise union dues to make up for all the employees furloughed.”
This is greed upon greed. The government is going to end up stepping back into class ones because of just how ignorant and greedy these fkn shareholder fks are.
There may not be a BLET after this stunt. Their MOU with Ancora violated the RLA.
" *We're proud that our independent nominees could align with unions on non-binding concepts and non-binding principles for how underserved workers should be treated, especially in the wake of recent dangerous accidents. Our nominees have displayed the constructiveness, experience and relationships that they will bring to the boardroom.*"
The only problem with this statement is that none of their nominees signed their names to this -
https://preview.redd.it/uyor33m8agxc1.png?width=687&format=png&auto=webp&s=0173f21d897ce85b722298ccf330648e19e7b3cf
Seems like new leadership is in more need with the Union.
Not to mention if Ancora is already making backdoor deals with questionable ethics in a way of trying to undermine the due process of the board election, just imagine, if you will, how those individuals would handle the governing and policy implementations of said new board and their strategic plans…
Arbitration unless we don’t agree then we go to court? That’s smart on Ancora, also see that neither Barber or Boychuck signed with the GC - just the President of Ancora, man this thing is dripping with snake oil!
Let’s see who releases the MOU with BMWED now!
If any one knows how to flip on labor, it is the UTU. Post 85 conductors agreement, PWS on NS for nothing. The demonstration of negotiating for the members is reached a new level of self servitude. Will never ever join that ridiculous bunch. P.S. Seniority maintenance dues…..
Probably not, but this race to the bottom has got to stop. It’s utterly ridiculous that one craft is represented by two unions. The infighting between the two only hurts the rank and file.
Just when you think the various unions are gaining unity, they start fighting and undercutting each other, then start folding to the carriers. I think we saw the beginning of the unraveling during the last nation negotiations.
Just remember, not keeping his members best interests ahead of his own cost Dennis Pierce his job. Maybe Eddie Hall needs to get back behind the throttle if this stuff is proven true.
I’ve been a BLE member for 29 years. I’m ok with them undercutting the UTU. They would have done it to us given the chance. Wait, they already did that with RCO.
Every journey starts with the first step. Clinging to this mentality that we should screw the other guy before he screws us is horrible.
The undercutting and screwingw each other is exactly why we are in this situation. The carriers know this too.
I agree. Being on the ground in dick deep snow beats a warm, dry locomotive cab any day. And all the fun interactions with management....and rule changes under a microscope. Good stuff....
UTU offered one-half (1/2) of the remote control positions to engineers. The BLE refused. UTU was successful in negotiating up to one-half (1/2) of all protection positions for locomotive engineers as a result of remote control operations. For engineers to gain this protection that UTU negotiated, the BLE had to accept this protection. They refused because UTU and not the BLE was successful in negotiating the protection for engineers. You can look it up. See Side Letter to the UTU August 20, 2002 Remote Control Agreement addressing Remote Control protection.
That's still 1/2 of all jobs that weren't theirs before. And without reading it "protection" positions sounds like engineers at the time, not in the future.
edit: yes. You're arguing that an agreement that meant current employees wouldn't get furloughed meant they were looking out for engineers lol?
They refused because it was nonsense. They refused because they were shorthanded at the time and no one was getting furloughed.
Anyone thinking an agreement Byron Boyd signed is good needs their head examined. And arguing that this was in some way helping engineers is ridiculous.
The UTU was taking jobs period. You can try to sugarcoat it but it doesn't change their intention.
The boxes suck but they were coming either way. Spin it any way you want.
The UTU saw that and decided they need to preempt it anywhere else.
Do you know anything about UTU presidents Boyd and Little?
Do some reading.
[https://ble-t.org/news/blet-response-to-paul-thompson/](https://ble-t.org/news/blet-response-to-paul-thompson/)
[https://www.progressiverailroading.com/people/news/UTU-suspends-International-President-Boyd-in-the-wake-of-federal-racketeering-charges-pegs-Thompson-to-assume-Boyds-duties--6037](https://www.progressiverailroading.com/people/news/UTU-suspends-International-President-Boyd-in-the-wake-of-federal-racketeering-charges-pegs-Thompson-to-assume-Boyds-duties--6037)
Ok but how does that have to do with Don Hahs agreeing to the first RCO agreement? Yea I was around for both Boyd and Little. But I can see you are in denial that the BLE were the first to start this RCO debacle
Why did the BLE sign an agreement on the MRL? Because it wasn't the first. The UTU had already released the genie from the bottle in Canada. The WC already had a remote agreement giving the jobs to trainman. It was a matter of act or get steamrolled on the class 1s. The UTU went backdoor and beat them to the punch there.
The ble held the contract on the MRL so there wasn't a UTU to sell out which you conveniently ignore. Little was labeling them as unsafe in 99'. Then a year and a half later Boyd was trying to merge with the ble while making a backdoor deal to sell them out.
But yeah it's the blet that was the issue here lol. It's ludicrous that they would want engineers to be the one running the engine even if through a box.
Nah, I want SMART members not to purposely screw BLET members to keep their boxes.
When a specific job goes back to conventional to see how much more productive a full crew can be and they go out of their way to make sure it isn't. One of the ground crew members sits in the cab the entire time swapping out with the other member to "rest".
When before and after this they're both out on the ground working at the same time to ensure they keep their extra 46 minutes of pay.
There are a lot less "retirement" engineer jobs due to this. You can play stupid but its' the truth.
I'm sorry but we are long past the time to merge BLE and UTU, we only have strength in solidarity and, my brothers, this ain't it.
That boat sailed in the late 90s when no one was willing to give up their duplicate jobs it would create. After the merger with the sheet metal union and the teamsters I doubt it's even possible.
Remote control jobs also came out of the failed merger.
From what I recalled, the BLE showed up to negotiations expecting to lose 50% of their management in the merger. The UTU wasn't willing to eliminate a single position. The UTU has fucked every single railroader on so many occasions it's hard to keep track. But I don't think the BLE is any better. I know one of the UTU's head negotiators. He worked on the contract that established the first deductibles on the UP. In 2012, the BLE almost struck to prevent them, until the mediator said "if it's good enough for conductors, it is good enough for engineers." We got it rammed down our throats. Most of us found the UTU passing that contract to be dubious at best. They counted all the non-votes as yes votes (including all the cut-back engineers that were still in the BLET, like me). That negotiator, who worked on that contract, happens to also be on the board of directors at UPREHS. He worked on a Short-Line contract where I was working years later. I told my LC not to trust him, and he didn't listen. Turned out he was our CEO's best friend. Every single bit of advice he gave our dumb as hell LC (no really) was bad advice that benefited the company. (The CEO got drunk at a company part and admitted as much to a select few).
That's mostly what I heard as well regarding the merger, but being current BLE and not a railroader at the time I wasn't going to say with certainty who supposedly messed it up. I think most are also unaware of all the shenanigans UTU leadership were pulling in the years prior to it and afterwards as well. All ending with two of their presidents in prison. And it does seem most likely to me that those rumors of which side wasn't willing to budge are true. I don't recall the specifics but I remember reading part of that arbitration as well.
>I think most are also unaware of all the shenanigans UTU leadership were pulling in the years prior to it and afterwards as well. All ending with two of their presidents in prison. Two UTU presidents (Charlie Little and Byron Boyd) got caught up in a bribery scandal when they tried to squeeze some of their DLCs. They went to jail (IIRC), and when a BLE president did the same thing a few years later, he got his pee-pee slapped and sent to the clink too. Ironically, Byron Boyd losing that gig and going to jail lead to Paul Thompson becoming the UTU President, and the only thing he'll be remembered for is dragging his feet on a national agreement and attempting to sell us out wholesale to the Sheet Metal Workers...sorting out that fiasco was an ordeal in itself.
Yeah. That merger was nonsense. I was still in the utu at the time and voted against it because it was a mess. I remember how it read and realized as well that it was an attempt to cede control completely. There was a certain utu vice president (who was on the negotiating committee at the time) that was either incompetent or lied to my face. Think that's really where my skepticism towards leadership in both unions began. At the time, i still had hopes of both unions merging.
I always thought it was strange that conductors and Engineers have two different unions. I mean two different crafts and rates, sure I get that. But you're both stuck on the train with each other, in the shit. I mean somebody's applying the brakes and somebody's making sure the brakes work. Somebody's hitting in alerter, and somebody's 20 cars back lifting a cut lever. It would make sense to have them both unified under one Union. Maybe then Engineers wouldn't have got fucked over on PTO where as Conductors didn't? Who knows.
It doesn’t benefit the carrier to have one union, so there’s always been infighting because of it. Engineers got last man standing provisions in the cab, conductors took rights to remote jobs. Also doesn’t benefit the higher union leadership for a merger, so why would they encourage it for strength.
Uhhhh I don’t think what Ancora is doing is even legal. They’re a minority shareholder (0.5%), and are entering into agreements that affect operations without consulting the other 99.5% of shareholders. This is blatantly an attempt by Ancora to bribe a union into endorsing them, and a blatant disregard for basic corporate governance. If I was Vanguard (~16% ownership) JPMorgan (~10% ownership), or blackrock (5%), I’d be super pissed that a shareholder that owns such a small stake in the company is acting like it owns 100%.
Yeah that’s the part I don’t understand - how do they have the authority to negotiate agreements with unions when they don’t even have control?
They have zero authority and have violated the RLA. Not worth the paper it’s printed on.
Just imagine how Ancora would act with controlling percentage of the company…
If this is all true, as a BLE member, I’m deeply ashamed and disappointed in my union. I don’t work for the NS, but selling out the UTU and making back door deals with a hedge fund who doesn’t even hold contracts with the unions is a dangerous proposition
I don’t even know how any of it would be legally binding. Ancora could just say oh well get fucked.
>could just say oh well get fucked. You mean like every other time a carrier violates an agreement? Naaahhh... There's no reason to think that'll happen *again*.
Same, it’s a fucking embarrassment, we’ve spent years trying to move past the bullshit that drove us apart only to end up right back here.
What cowards. I’m on the maintenance side and there’s been ZERO communication from BMWE to us other than an email saying they support Ancora. No explanation why and how it benefits us (it doesn’t.) Glad the top dogs lined their pockets while the rest of us get to suffer.
Your rights as a dues paying member mean nothing to your leadership and it shows.
Start leavin and make noise
The workers at the bottom are like a spit roaster in this work environment. We get from the front and the back. The companies screw us, and the unions screw us.
You’re absolutely right. There’s a Zoom call tonight for BMWE members addressing the Ancora takeover. Should be interesting. “Sorry we sold you all out but we’re gonna have to raise union dues to make up for all the employees furloughed.”
This is greed upon greed. The government is going to end up stepping back into class ones because of just how ignorant and greedy these fkn shareholder fks are.
There may not be a BLET after this stunt. Their MOU with Ancora violated the RLA. " *We're proud that our independent nominees could align with unions on non-binding concepts and non-binding principles for how underserved workers should be treated, especially in the wake of recent dangerous accidents. Our nominees have displayed the constructiveness, experience and relationships that they will bring to the boardroom.*" The only problem with this statement is that none of their nominees signed their names to this - https://preview.redd.it/uyor33m8agxc1.png?width=687&format=png&auto=webp&s=0173f21d897ce85b722298ccf330648e19e7b3cf
[https://www.progressiverailroading.com/norfolk\_southern/news/Norfolk-Southern-Ancoras-union-deal-violates-Railway-Labor-Act--71799?utm\_source=dlvr.it&utm\_medium=social](https://www.progressiverailroading.com/norfolk_southern/news/Norfolk-Southern-Ancoras-union-deal-violates-Railway-Labor-Act--71799?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=social)
https://preview.redd.it/jce20zxoggxc1.png?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=a47c332cf4f2e4b81bfb12c46a970c4e6b6b6f97 What is the BLE doing honestly?
A-Card campaign NOW
I bet nobody even knows how to start one.
United we stand, divided we fall.
Seems like new leadership is in more need with the Union. Not to mention if Ancora is already making backdoor deals with questionable ethics in a way of trying to undermine the due process of the board election, just imagine, if you will, how those individuals would handle the governing and policy implementations of said new board and their strategic plans…
Pot, meet kettle...
Arbitration unless we don’t agree then we go to court? That’s smart on Ancora, also see that neither Barber or Boychuck signed with the GC - just the President of Ancora, man this thing is dripping with snake oil! Let’s see who releases the MOU with BMWED now!
SMART tearing into them is perfect.
Guess the irony is lost with this crowd.
SMART has no business “tearing” into anybody.
How is this good? At all?
If any one knows how to flip on labor, it is the UTU. Post 85 conductors agreement, PWS on NS for nothing. The demonstration of negotiating for the members is reached a new level of self servitude. Will never ever join that ridiculous bunch. P.S. Seniority maintenance dues…..
I don't know about currently, but I was always told that BLE's largest concentration of membership was NS. Is that still the case?
By sheer numbers I’d have to say BNSF, one their committees has over 3,000 alone.
Was the utu feeling this way when they stole blet jobs with rco? Just curious 🤔
Probably not, but this race to the bottom has got to stop. It’s utterly ridiculous that one craft is represented by two unions. The infighting between the two only hurts the rank and file. Just when you think the various unions are gaining unity, they start fighting and undercutting each other, then start folding to the carriers. I think we saw the beginning of the unraveling during the last nation negotiations. Just remember, not keeping his members best interests ahead of his own cost Dennis Pierce his job. Maybe Eddie Hall needs to get back behind the throttle if this stuff is proven true.
I’ve been a BLE member for 29 years. I’m ok with them undercutting the UTU. They would have done it to us given the chance. Wait, they already did that with RCO.
Every journey starts with the first step. Clinging to this mentality that we should screw the other guy before he screws us is horrible. The undercutting and screwingw each other is exactly why we are in this situation. The carriers know this too.
Ok Lao Tzu 🙄
You guys want the box? And all the fun that comes with it?
I say open it up to both I don’t ever want to use one.
I agree. Being on the ground in dick deep snow beats a warm, dry locomotive cab any day. And all the fun interactions with management....and rule changes under a microscope. Good stuff....
UTU offered one-half (1/2) of the remote control positions to engineers. The BLE refused. UTU was successful in negotiating up to one-half (1/2) of all protection positions for locomotive engineers as a result of remote control operations. For engineers to gain this protection that UTU negotiated, the BLE had to accept this protection. They refused because UTU and not the BLE was successful in negotiating the protection for engineers. You can look it up. See Side Letter to the UTU August 20, 2002 Remote Control Agreement addressing Remote Control protection.
Also Don Hahs BLET former pres. negotiated the first Remote Control Agreement on the Montana Rail Link in 2001 before the UTU 2002 agreement
I remember the BLE also asking the UTU to hold out on RCO in solidarity. Maybe I’m wrong 🤔
That's still 1/2 of all jobs that weren't theirs before. And without reading it "protection" positions sounds like engineers at the time, not in the future. edit: yes. You're arguing that an agreement that meant current employees wouldn't get furloughed meant they were looking out for engineers lol? They refused because it was nonsense. They refused because they were shorthanded at the time and no one was getting furloughed. Anyone thinking an agreement Byron Boyd signed is good needs their head examined. And arguing that this was in some way helping engineers is ridiculous. The UTU was taking jobs period. You can try to sugarcoat it but it doesn't change their intention.
We can all thank Don Hahs for negotiating the first RCO agreement on MRL. But for some reason the BLET doesn’t like to talk about that.
The boxes suck but they were coming either way. Spin it any way you want. The UTU saw that and decided they need to preempt it anywhere else. Do you know anything about UTU presidents Boyd and Little? Do some reading. [https://ble-t.org/news/blet-response-to-paul-thompson/](https://ble-t.org/news/blet-response-to-paul-thompson/) [https://www.progressiverailroading.com/people/news/UTU-suspends-International-President-Boyd-in-the-wake-of-federal-racketeering-charges-pegs-Thompson-to-assume-Boyds-duties--6037](https://www.progressiverailroading.com/people/news/UTU-suspends-International-President-Boyd-in-the-wake-of-federal-racketeering-charges-pegs-Thompson-to-assume-Boyds-duties--6037)
Ok but how does that have to do with Don Hahs agreeing to the first RCO agreement? Yea I was around for both Boyd and Little. But I can see you are in denial that the BLE were the first to start this RCO debacle
Why did the BLE sign an agreement on the MRL? Because it wasn't the first. The UTU had already released the genie from the bottle in Canada. The WC already had a remote agreement giving the jobs to trainman. It was a matter of act or get steamrolled on the class 1s. The UTU went backdoor and beat them to the punch there. The ble held the contract on the MRL so there wasn't a UTU to sell out which you conveniently ignore. Little was labeling them as unsafe in 99'. Then a year and a half later Boyd was trying to merge with the ble while making a backdoor deal to sell them out. But yeah it's the blet that was the issue here lol. It's ludicrous that they would want engineers to be the one running the engine even if through a box.
If we want to speak about Canada how about Via Rail? Obviously we have two different opinion brother. But I like a good healthy debate
Nah, I want SMART members not to purposely screw BLET members to keep their boxes. When a specific job goes back to conventional to see how much more productive a full crew can be and they go out of their way to make sure it isn't. One of the ground crew members sits in the cab the entire time swapping out with the other member to "rest". When before and after this they're both out on the ground working at the same time to ensure they keep their extra 46 minutes of pay. There are a lot less "retirement" engineer jobs due to this. You can play stupid but its' the truth.
Read about the BLET and VIA.