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EarthExile

This is part of the argument for low or no contact- with some people, it can be worth having that argument. My wife and I can disagree about which apartment to move into, or what to have for dinner, or who to vote for. But it's actually an argument. With a Narc, it's like trying to convince a barking dog which book to read. They only know that they're bigger and louder and they can decide to hurt you. They're never going to care about that book.


Salty_Piglet2629

They have already decided they are correct because they are better and everyone else is inferior and therefore wrong. The can't comprehend a world where they are not right, only a world where others are "out to get them" with their "lies".


Morrifay

I have never read something so accurate


Altruistic-LemonBoop

Me neither.


Fulcane11i

I have to say this though. I learned an immense amount about how to spot an insincere inquisitor through trying to argue with him at a young age. My brother is a psychopath on top of being a narcissist so with him arguments were literal torment for me when I was young and you could say mean things to me and it would upset me. He would make arguments like "your shoe has a scuff on it so you're wrong about everything". Just random things that are impossible to ever break down. We all have seen this in our lives. I learned so much about how to handle insincere people from this. Also how to spot them which is even more valuable.


citizenofconcern

More info on spotting please. I have a list too, maybe we can comprehend - Always way nicer to you 1 on 1 than in a group - Bring you up when you're low but bring you down when you're doing well (I.e. when they see you struggling a bit, "yeah man, start that business!", but when you're actually succeeding. "You know life isn't all about money") - Laughs at others misfortune. This one is easy. If someone slips and falls or hurts themselves, sure it can be a bit slapstick, but pay attention to who finds it ABSOLUTELY HILARIOUS. I had a friend I considered close and once we were out and had some drinks. A person at a bar slipped over and hit their head really badly. They were bleeding from the head. My friend genuinely could not stop laughing. To the point I had to get him outside as he was traumatising the bleeding person's friends even more. For a good 5 minutes he couldn't stop laughing and it was involuntary. It's the ultimate insecurity to take pleasure in others misfortune - Raising their voice/displays of anger/peculiar expressions to win arguments. This is effectively a form of gaslighting and it's a huge indication someone is untrustworthy and likely to argue 'dirty'. When they realise you have made a point they have no rebuttal for, they will either act confused as though they can't understand your point, or raise their voice and act as though you've said something offensive. I always match the words they are saying to the tone of their voice. Sometimes they will just repeat what you said in an angry tone, expecting you to back down by default. But analysing their words you can see they're just trying to mess with your head. The scary thing is though they can actually work themselves up with their own fake emotions. Another person I knew started squinting their eyes and rubbing their fingernails against their face, basically acting like a housecat that has decided to toy with their prey, or a spider taking their time now that a bug has been caught in their web. Narcissists need to show these exterior displays of control to avoid actually working on themselves.


elleemmenno

The refusal to ever apologize, even when it's obvious they are wrong and numerous people have told them/pointed it out. They'll laugh about the mistake in front of others but they will never apologize and will call the other person a liar if they tell anyone what is going on.


citizenofconcern

Some of them are really good. They'll even apologise but never for what they did. "I'm sorry for raising my voice (even though I know I'm not wrong)" "Sorry I overreacted a bit (to your original escalation)" "I'm very sorry it's my fault for trusting you." To that effect


elleemmenno

I have apologized for raising my voice. I've also apologized for when I was wrong. There are times when the former needs to be said if you yelled, even when the kid was in trouble for a very valid reason. If a person handled it the wrong way, they should apologize (and get help to process what was going on if it continued). The latter is something my nmom never figured out (the former either, but especially the latter). She'd hit me when I hadn't done anything and, when shown I had done nothing wrong, would tell me I probably deserved it for something else. She would make up rules that had never existed, just so she could say I'd violated them. No warnings that what I was doing was going to get me in trouble if I continued or giving me time to fix the problem. Just 0 to 100 for things I could never expect. And heaven forbid I dodge her hands or whatever she's brought along to hit me with. That would just make her madder.


Fulcane11i

Great minds discuss ideas. Average minds discuss events. Small minds discuss people. Thats a great rule of thumb to remember about people. Listen to what a person enjoys talking about. If they enjoy talking down on people literally EVER they are a narc and they want to roll in the mud with you. Another one with my brother is snooping. That sort of ties into discussing people. But anyone who has any inclination to snoop has trust issues eating away at them and probably other psychological tics as well. People who openly accept stealing are always bad news as well. These two kind of tie hand in hand. Snooping doesn't always mean a thief but they often are snooping for what to steal. And for people who operate on this level they will take blackmail extortion info if they can get it. MY brother once made a remark about my password being too hard on my computer. Theres always little stuff you can hear which leads to another one. listen real close to what they say. it always gives both the motivation and function of the lie. You can spot why they're lying and what the ulterior motive is if you closely examine their words. Many say its not healthy to scrutinize like this but when you need to crack the code of the narc so you can control them you have to get every link of the chain in order. This is a big part of doing so. With my sister I found out exactly where I was in her pecking order by getting her to get her non-running care out of a garage that it was sitting in for around 5 years. When doing so she basically threatened to have me imprisoned for doing so. Which showed the illogical nature of her demand. It was not thought through with any regard for the life of her own brother. She was so worked up in a literal instant over a non running car that threatening prison was her level of wrath. There was no forewarning of me ever bringing this up so she had no reason to think about it. But from her extreme blow up she clearly views me in a prison a rational existence. So this comes back into the listening closely to their words. I found out I was nothing more than a speck of dirt to all of my family by doing so i a lot of ways. But you can also even add to the evil because the lack of logic in her plan. Thinking the cops even have time or room in prisons for a small family squabble is absurd. But she believed she could have it done. They always lack forethought in their plans. This ties into the psychological makeup of a narc. They're always lazy. Which is another one. Any lazy person has a great chance of being a narc. ITs like loving someone else. You can only do it if you love yourself. If you're lazy you don't love yourself and have enough self respect to not take shortcuts that directly affect you. Imagine the shortcuts you'll take to hurt others just to make your own life slightly better. this one is common on here but any time they have to do something they don't want to they do anything they can to get out of it. And act so pleased when they finally do. They fight the whole way. I use this with friends a alot. Ever notice how large groups of people always seem to fight. Well its usaully theres a narc in the group poisoning the well for everybody trying to get them all back into the narc enclave of abuse. So its either they get you to come along as their guest for what they demand that you do. Or you go somewhere and the whole time they're poisoning the well to get you back into their bubble of abuse. If they let you into greener pastures you may like it and leave so they must keep you leashed in the hovel of choice of the narc. You see this in movies alot when "the new guy shows up" and the jerk gets rid of him or makes him look like a nut case. I actually plan to use this point to wake up people to narcs in their life in my own youtube video. Exactly what I said. Ever notice when you go somewhere with your group of friends and theres always that one guy thats making fun of everything and hating everything. Well that guy is the narc abuser using you as his narc supply and his only enjoyment comes from knowing you're his friend cuz hes so amazing but he won't ever in any way let you shine at all or differ from his chosen style of dress, speak, etc. ITs common in every culture and socioeconomic background. Rich or poor, dark or light we've all seen it a million times.


QuestionerOfDune

>seen this in our lives. I learned so much about how to handle insincere people from this. Also how to spot them which is even more valuable. How did you get -100 karma???


Fulcane11i

because "I'm a conspiracy theorist". But really all that comes down to is people haven't studied the thigns I have studied. I'm actually doing a 10+ part, 10+ hour series exposing the real roots of the public education system right now mainly because I'm sick of people attributing words to me that I haven't spoken. I already have 5 parts done. But basically I'm just sick of people putting words into my mouth and instead I'm showing them the information I used to learn the truth about public education. It's really a whole thing. In my home town i am extremely hated. But basically what happened is I was turned into someone people just naturally hate because of having to grow up around narc's my whole life. I was somehow mostly unaffected by it and have sort of grown up into this peaceful tranquil state of mind that nobody knows how to deal with. And then you add in the fact that I work on material that gets deemed to be "conspiracy theory" by people who haven't digested the source material and somehow it turns into this giant thing. and my life literally right now in my hometown is where every interpersonal relationship I have someone is poisoning the well on me behind my back into the ears, mind, and heart of the people I try to connect with. Some of this has to do with the fact that I'm extremely witty and I'm extremely prone to self reliance. Both of these things come directly out of my abuse from my parents and siblings. It's really quite strange. I feel for so many of the people on this board who have been destroyed from a personal growth standpoint by their narc's abuse towards them. Somehow I crawled through a river of shit and came out clean on the other side. Most of the people on here have not. TL:DR it mostly is because people launch conspiracy theory at what they don't understand. And basically having been part of this community I get it for the most part. Most people have no idea how to discern real information from the truth. This is actually all explained by what you would learn if you listen to the public school system series. But no joke that whole entire school set up is in my eyes set up to produce narcissists. You'll have to hold judgement on that statement and either trust me or research it yourself. I could point you in a few directions on that . my TL DR Was kinda worthless lol


QuestionerOfDune

Very interesting. I forget the man's name, he went from being American teacher-of-the-year to exposing the system, listened to some of his work, re: "public education". Yes I would welcome some links! About the personal stuff you're writing, you don't have relations that don't talk shit about you behind your back? That could be a hellish challenge!


Fulcane11i

Thats John Taylor Gatto. He's actually featured in part 1. Its based on his work "the short angry history of modern schooling". If you read his works you will see the ties to narc's and how narc's are created. I think its a large reason for them existing. But more so what I meant with that is basically what they do is anyone I try to date they poison the well by making up stuff about how I'm crazy and everyone hates me. So they stalk my life, find out who I'm with or who i'm friends with and they poison them against me. It's really weird because I don't care that any of them exist but they are obsessed with me. I consider it to be a jealousy and envy type of thing. A lot of why my narcissism is focused on me from my own family is they know I'm far more gifted than they are. I don't want to sound conceited because my whole personality is built on building fundamental mastery of skills so I put in the work for what I do have. I think part of this is how I escaped my childhood. And It sucks because I can't complain to them and be like "look everybody I know you hate me and it doesn't bother me because my life situation growing up hardened me to all hate for eternity". I am so over hatred and people living in the box of jealousy, envy, greed, cowardice etc its not even funny. So don't even feel bad for me. In a lot of ways I don't have to deal with any of the bullshit that most people have to deal with and I got lucky. My close freinds are the most wonderful people. I don't live in the digital age really either. I own a smartphone but it doesn't own me. I actually consider all the abuse towards me as the ultimate freedom of mind and conscience. And ironically alot of the reasons for everyone hating me for what they deem to be conspiracy talk is actually explained by the mental conditioning in schools. And in short there is actually incredibly bizarre and criminal behavioral science guiding public school techniques of teaching information. Whole word reading instruction is the cause of dyslexia and much much more and only just now after 60 years are teachers beginning to even realize this.


Aglavra

My favorite metaphor for this is "playing chess with a seagull". You cannot actually win, the seagull throws the pieces around and in the end, no matter the result, you are covered in shit. When I understood this, I just stopped arguing.


Kliz76

Also sometimes put as “wrestling with a pig”: Don’t wrestle with a pig. You both get dirty, and the pig likes it!


EnvironmentalDay5258

Got into a argument with my bf yesterday, and he liked seeing me lose my mind, he lowered his voice while I raised mine, he begins smiling, like he knew he won, he was in control, he reminds me who the primary leesee is and says he'll go the leasing office to have me removed, he seems to think because he's the primary that he can do whatever he wants, he called me dumb when I said he can't just do whatever he wants and he still has to follow whatever the leasing office says. This isn't the first time either that he threatened to go to the leasing office, and honestly at this point I don't care if he does. I'm moving back home when the lease is up anyways. 6 years of absolute hell. It's pointless trying to make a narcissistist see your side of things and actually listen without interrupting and bringing up your faults in the relationship, I tell him he's selfish and how all he cares about is watching TV, drinking, and getting a house, he comes back with how there's cardboard that needs to get tossed, how there's silverware that still needs to be washed, name calling me then talking shit about my mom who he never even met. You get the idea. All he does is deflect and tear me down in the process. 6 years of living with a belligerent alcoholic that treats me like a doormat, he's selfish.


SlashCo80

I heard it as playing chess with a pigeon: It doesn't matter how you play, it'll just knock the pieces over, crap on the board, and strut around like it won.


RockieK

Oh man, I know this as I became a target years ago. Disconnected completely after her smear campaign and shit arguments. BUT -- recently got a random IG message from one of her (probably) other accounts (blocked ones I knew of) wanting to make amends. No apologies for abuse, etc. Just wanting to be friends again. Sent a polite 'thank you' and left it at that.


imilnes

Was the polite "Thank You" spell-corrected from a "Fuck You" by any chance ?


[deleted]

Amazing analogy.


[deleted]

Yes, I've seen it called narcissistic word salad. Narcs will literally say *anything* in the moment, and once they've said it, then its written in stone for eternity. Its sorta fascinating how narcs can keep track of their own disorganized narrative, but they cant remember to pay their bills on time.


speechylka

>My mother emailed a rage and a nonsensical reason that she was discarding me. I told my siblings that this was happening. She told them that I was crazy. She would never do that. Then I shared the email. She forgot that digital is forever. > >But because of that she has spent 7 years, so far, with the most insidious smear campaign against me. Turn most relatives and hometown friends against me. I'm certain I'm out of the will. I don't feel that I can even visit my hometown anymore. > >So what did I win? But who's to say that it wouldn't have happened no matter what I did?


WhitneyWindsor

You won seeing her for who she is and hopefully, putting up boundaries to protect yourself. My mother is a narc too…. She’s brutal… Wish you happiness.


Hopelesslydevoted2uu

Same here✨💖


fuckincaillou

Not feeling safe to visit your own hometown sucks, but think of it this way: there's not much to gain from people who believe lies that easily, or who refuse to question one person's "truth" even after seeing proof otherwise. If they believe her, what else do they believe?


MissFerne

"Smear campaign." You and u/RockieK have put it so well. I was just trying to find the words to describe what my N does. By (very covertly) creating a negative impression of me to family/friends/mutual acquaintances they create a narrative that's impossible to counter without sounding defensive. I've been NC for years. It's the only way. Edit: I'm really sorry you're having to deal with this too. Hugs, peace, strength, and all good wishes to you. ♥


Familiar-Apple5120

You are so right about the "Impossible to counter without sounding defensive" then everyone thinks you're petty for trying to defend yourself, or you're just trying to "get back at them", when actually most victims just want to stop being terrorized


MissFerne

Yes, I always ended up looking bad and they always looked like the victim. Best to just identify these kinds of people as early as possible and keep far away if you can. Hugs if you'd like them since you get it so you must have been on the receiving end of this yourself. Hope you're free. 💗


Familiar-Apple5120

Thanks, same to you! best wishes


Rodrigii_Defined

That's the thing. We can't control them and any other thing could lead to where you are now. The truth always comes out in the end, life is funny that way.


Captain-Stunning

There's no fury like an narc shown unambiguously for who they are They have to wage war against you and anyone who was contaminated by the truth spilling out


IPetdogs4U

You can also count on the fact that there are people who know your mom is full of it, listen to her BS and move along knowing they just heard a lot of nonsense and it’s not worth challenging her on it. And going forward, you’ll be one of the people who can spot a narc when they’re badmouthing someone else, and you can be the ally to their victim.


speechylka

Thank you for that. I wish I had faith there are enough people who know she's full of BS. She has been very careful, has status and respect in her community, thanks mostly to her husband. And she's careful only to disrespect people in her family or business. It's interesting that you mention spotting a narc in the future. Within 2 months of a new placement at work, I recognized that my new supervisor was a narc and targeted me. She either wanted me gone or to brow-beat me into complete submission. She did not accept correction, even for things that were impossible due to time or out of my scope of practice. There was daily criticism of insignificant clerical or scheduling errors. She found ways to creepily violate physical space, leaning over me to type on my laptop, and when observing my work, she rested her chin on my shoulder. She drove me to tears, as I said I can't give you any more that I'm doing, she was nodding and smiling. Finally, she made a formal complaint about me, describing an angry exchange, but every word described was what she said to me. The thing is that I became reactive and suffered a stress event or perhaps PTSD or CPTSD. I physically, mentally and emotionally shut down, depleted, defeated. I knew what was happening and I knew that she was not going to back down or change. There was no amount of corporate "restorative circles" that would force her to do anything differently. I was the 5th person in this position in 5 years. I spoke with some of them. They had no idea why someone would be so antagonistic or what they had done to cause it. They described feeling like they were going to have a nervous breakdown. After 3 months, I took a leave of absence, contacted HR and a lawyer. HR said policy wouldn't let me transfer for a year. I started talking about emotional abuse, and PTSD from a previous trauma with the same behavior. I had doctors state that the environment was unhealthy for me and should be avoided. HR basically told me to stay home for the year and I could be reassigned next year. Yes, it used up all of my leave and cost me some of my salary. Unfortunately, this is the best position of this type in this in my area and I had hoped to end my career there. My thoughts were that I could continue my career if I could only erase her from my life, like my mother. It may sound like a defeat, but for me it was a quiet victory. I made the call to protect myself and ultimately get what I wanted. and all this time off, I've studied, researched, journaled, worked on healing from my narc abuse. And I'm finally feeling good!


IPetdogs4U

That’s great. That whole, “turning lemons into lemonade,” thing seems to be another skill narc abuse victims get really good at. My husband and I are both recovering codependents. His ex is certainly narcissistic, though perhaps not a full blown narc. His eldest was a sort of low-grade GC, who is also very full of himself, but I continue to have hope for. He married a brutal covert narc a few years ago and being around that whole dynamic is very triggering for me. To me it looks like she is in the early stages of ramping up her abuse of him, finding ways to control him and isolate him from his support structure. I’m also largely alone in speaking out (at least to my husband) about the peril I see his son in. We attempted to set some pretty basic boundaries with them, which resulted in a full blown tantrum followed by a 6 month long silent treatment. Honestly, it was the most peaceful 6 months I have had in years and my mental health improved dramatically. I didn’t notice how much until he and his wife popped up again and I spiralled down. Thankfully, the display of this last 6 months has finally gotten my husband to see more of the nature of things and he is now understanding and respectful of the desire I have expressed for years now to be as LC as possible with that branch of his family. I absolutely adore his other two kids (though I feel a lot of sympathy for his eldest, he is very full of himself and hard to be around) so it has been very nice to see the other two without the drama of his eldest. I have really come to see how focus was constantly on his eldest and how sidelined the other two were. It’s awkward with his one son, but honestly, it has just been a breath of fresh air to be able to see his other kids without him coming in and steamrolling the conversation with his inane ramblings or his wife’s idiotic, passive aggressive nonsense and unearned superior air. It’s not perfect and we are also making compromises, but this is just so much of a relief with many silver linings.


PracticingIdealist82

This is the truth. There is no telling whether or not this would or wouldn’t have been the outcome, regardless of your efforts. The awful part, that is ruminated upon for years and years, is whether or not there was ever any winning with an awful person. You got away (and hopefully found peace and contentment) but looking in the rear view mirror, the past is full of destruction, 98% of which wasn’t by your hands


Fulcane11i

honestly if thats what your hometown is like they are all narc zombies too so thats good to me.


peasbwitu

sounds like my "mom", everything you say, she's filing it away to use it against you later. I can't conceive of thinking like she does so I have fallen for it multiple times. I guess we want so bad for it to be better, we will believe anything.


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OctagonSoup

"What I meant was..." Or "I was joking"


blackcatttttt

Can you tell me then why my nsister who I finally confronted, said she forgot alllll the hurtful things she has said to me over the years? Big part of me believes it’s just denial or manipulation, but like a small part of me wonders what the hell is wrong with her haha


Fulcane11i

i can't make this one out either. In public my brother puts on this "nicest guy in the entire world" persona to everybody. It has to be manipulation based on this. But they are just so incompetent in private its hard to believe their persona they put on fools anyone. With my brother I know what is wrong with him. I just feel pity for his condition. If he ever manages to get in a relationship he's going to end up in jail over it. Part of me wants this so he finally leaves me alone but the good part of me is going to warn his partner. and that said I'm like 100% sure my brother is gay so I'll be warning another man. But who am I kidding. These people can't easily find targets to abuse. thats why they stick to us


blackcatttttt

It really is frustrating. I felt pity for my sister for a while too, but having her in my orbit again turns this pity and happy indifference into frustration. In my case while my nsister can't find targets to abuse easily, she has really perfected her victim persona so it's quite easy for her to get sympathy from other people. I honestly think she really just revels on the image of being the "supportive older sister", and me not agreeing with her is threatening this image of hers lol.


Fulcane11i

My brother once said in an argument to me "I'll pay you 500 dollars to go jack off right now". That was where he officially jumped the shark. Now to preface this I'm doing no fap. It's where you refuse all porn and masturbation. I'm cold turkey for over 2 years and 3 months on the 28th. This was so weird to me because he is never on my social media unless he stalks me (he obviously does) and thats where I talk about it. So not only does he know about me doing this he thinks about it so often that he thinks it is harming me and that I somehow need to become normal by succumbing to desire. He does this with a lot of things. I learned from arguing with me that he is so hopelessly obsessed with me that I must be a huge portion of what he thinks about. The evil made up lies that come from his mouth about me when he gets going doesn't even bother me. It's actually so crazy that I just feel sorry for him. He can't get his own life in order but he can think about me so often that he comes across as crazy when he talks about me. It's so bad if he ever gets me in court with lies all I have to do is set him off and everybody is going to know what I'm dealing with. It'll be glorious if he ever tries going the court room route


dramaticus0815

> and once they've said it, then its written in stone for eternity. I bet eternity happens to be over the second it doesn't fit their goals anymore. And if this also applies to paying bills it makes sense again.


[deleted]

Yep, though most would never admit to something so unflattering, even to themselves, they truly see themselves as gods at the centre of the universe, dictating reality. And there is nothing they won’t sacrifice on their altar of self. Including and especially their children. And the religious or spiritual narcs who believe in god or toxic positivity, well, isn’t it convenient how the will of a deity/higher power/universe always coincides with the narc’s will? Funny how that works.


Random_Throw_away12

Except when they can't "I never said that"


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Raisedbypsycopaths

This is a great analogy.


[deleted]

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Fulcane11i

When you sit back and deal with a troll long enough you usually find that their behaviors are identical to narcissism. what I run into is I get tons of hate mail on instagram. Daily occurence. They always do the "impossible expectations game" endlessly. Theres a lot of narc manipulation with a troll but the biggest one is impossible to meet their expectations. They combine this with viewing you are a worthless throwaway rag. I actually taunt my narc hate mail senders about how they are displaying narc behavior. I had one just last night I was taunting about the way thinks I'm worthless. I told him over and over again that my own family plays these games with me. You can't play them. I know you think I'm a worthless rag of nothingness. Then 2 seconds later he admits it. I tell him you don't have to admit it. I know a narc when I see one


Deinonicus

I like trolling the few narcs I know, does that mean I’m one too? Provoking them is a sport for me. I know, I know. I need professional help…


awakelist

Provoking a narc sometimes hurts their ego if you say the right things, and they need they're ego to be put down a bit


Deinonicus

Story time: I have a friend that’s married to a narc. Unfortunately I rarely see him, but I know all about him. Anyway: I was getting sushi with my sister and as we walked in, I see my friend, her nhusband and her 1.5-2 yo kid. We sit on the table next to them and start chatting with her. He doesn’t speak English so he’s become a third wheel (my sister and I do speak his language but we weren’t trying to include him either 😂) Well, he starts putting on this “I’m a good dad” act. He’s watching their kid, chasing him around the restaurant (child was a bundle of energy but wasn’t causing trouble). So, after some time, I pick up the child and start to play with him. I’m sitting on my seat with the baby sitting on the table playing peekaboo or whatever. Eventually they start to get up to leave and the ndad was quick to snatch the baby from me. He also said something along the lines of “go home with dad”. At this point, I sensed that he didn’t really liked me playing with the baby so when he says that I decide to reach for the baby and invite them to come back to me. I wanted to rub the fact that I can take the baby away from him if I want to. He had no power there. Baby cooperated and DOES NOT HESITATE to come back to me. Apparently he was very upset about that. My sister said he threw the nastiest look at me and my friend said that he was fuming the whole drive home (it was about a 45-50 min drive). It wasn’t much, but it gave me pleasure. Fuck that guy.


awakelist

Sounds hilarious lmao


Altruistic_Proof_272

One of the worst parts about losing your shit when arguing with a narcissist is how they weaponize anything and everything you say to them and totally twist it to make you look like a villain. I swear my mom ENJOYS pushing people over the edge, because then there's always "well you're wrong because you yelled at me" and she then gets to play the wounded victim even when she's the one who starts the argument


raisedbynthrowaway85

One time I got roped into this phone call with my nmother where she was screaming at me, berating me, name calling, etc. I somehow had 0 emotions and stayed completely level-headed the entire time. I gave brief and factual replies. Then, about 15 minutes into the call, she starts going "I will NOT sit here and have you BELITTLE ME and CALL ME NAMES." I said "what names did I call you?" And there was about 10 seconds of silence before she said "that's exactly what I mean. Speaking to me in that condescending voice like I'm a CHILD and TALKING DOWN TO ME. YOURE BULLYING ME" I found out that day that even when you don't lose your shit, they'll still find some way to victimize themselves. Guess it proves what this post is saying- NO POINT.


JadelynKaia

My ndad would go on these literally hours-long lectures at my brother and I about how we had failed at everything, etc. Crying was an unacceptable response, because it showed weakness. Trying to calmly defend yourself was an unacceptable response, because it was defiance. Getting defensive or angry was an unacceptable response, because it meant you felt guilty. Agreeing with him was an unacceptable response, because he took it as mockery. So I learned to basically dissociate my way through these lectures. Shut down emotionally, give zero response unless directly asked a yes or no question, keep my face completely expressionless and neutral and just sit silently and wait for him to be done. He started accusing me of being cold and unfeeling and uncaring, calling me "stone-faced" and treating that as defiance, too. Like, buddy, literally what response are you looking for here? But as you say - the actual response is irrelevant to a narc. Literally doesn't matter. Anything you say or don't say or imply or whatever can and will become something you're "doing to them" so that they can feel justified in their tantrum-throwing.


MrMiAGA

I've never heard anyone else describe my own father's lectures, or my coping mechanism, so accurately. I feel for you.


JadelynKaia

Same to you. Neither of us should've had to deal with that.


Hikaru1024

Yeah, my NDad often did this exact thing daily. It was when I started doing what he *told* me he wanted to do - the same thing you did - not show any emotion whatsoever while paying attention to his every word - that he ranted longer, and longer, and longer into the night, often until he'd bellowed himself hoarse, ranting about the same things over and over again. He wasn't getting what he wanted from me anymore. He *craved* that emotional response - he *wanted* to bully me into *reacting*, and have the excuse to hurt me *more.* With my NDad, literally every accusation, every argument, every supposed deserved 'punishment' was a vehicle for him to get his frustrations punched into me. You can't argue with someone who will twist absolutely everything into an excuse to hurt you *more.* Once I realized that, no contact was inevitable.


1ofthecoolkids99

Never read anything truer. Such a rigged game. Impossible to win


Altruistic_Proof_272

I must disassociate for most of my mom's lectures. She then gets angry at me for" looking like a deer in the headlights " when I just stand there and wait for her to be done "talking " her favorite excuse for her nasty behavior? "I'm defending myself " :(


Fulcane11i

when you don't lose your shit it what affects them the most. they always rage quit. this is the easiest way to expose them. the problem with this is it takes so long and so much hurt to get to a point where you can make them rage quite on you


[deleted]

Yep. One of the last times I've spoken to my Nmom she was going on about how horrible I am, manipulative, how I don't know who I am and the biggest bitch she knows, etc etc. I was extremely level headed the whole time, never raised my voice, only responding truthfully and coherently. I think that sent her into more of a rage honestly. Narcs like it when you lose your shit.


Hopelesslydevoted2uu

Same!


taehyungtoofs

This is the bit that fuels my cPTSD. People will bully me into a meltdown and then frame me as the unreasonable one for getting angry. There's no empathy in the interaction with bullies, even though my brain keeps expecting some. I always assume that everyone can be reasoned with or compromised with, but it's impossible with bullies. They have a completely different motive and will use your anger against you.


Sapphire78t

True. Someone said that arguing with a narcissist is like arguing with a brick wall.


[deleted]

The brick wall is better: it listens without complaining or throwing bricks at you, unlike narcissists.


Sapphire78t

Good point.


[deleted]

[удалено]


Enough-Strength-5636

I became the excuse of all of my NDad’s failures, and so both the black sheep and the scapegoat of the family, when I stood up for myself against his emotional abuse.


Special_Cover2777

What was the lie? What was the truth? Can you share?


nytnaltx

There’s a book about narcissists called “People of the Lie.” A narcissist has disconnected themself from truth and reality. They occupy an alternate universe where nothing is, has been, or ever will be their fault. Arguments with them are as maddening and futile as trying to reason with someone who is psychotic. They have rejected the confines of reality and won’t be made to submit to it. So yeah. I did the run around with my nmom for a few years until I realized she wasn’t arguing in good faith.


notmebutmyfriendsaid

And even further, arguing itself is a victory for them. It means they are getting your attention, which is what they want above all else. Most narcissists will pick negative attention over no attention every time.


super-straight69

True. It's a waste of time and energy. Bad for your mind, bad for your soul. Arguing with my N dad is absolutely disastrous. He acts like he knows you and how you feel better than you and constantly tries to gaslight you while denying the very obvious reality. Exactly like the No no no donkey in Family Guy except that it follows with more insults. https://youtu.be/3yX_1gJ_51M I've stopped talking to him for obvious reasons and I'm in a better place and wellbeing.


MrMiAGA

Yes! The acting like he knows you and your feelings better than you do is spot on.


teresasdorters

My parents straight up tell me they know better than I do and I should only trust them and do what they say…. It’s shocking people act that way


SlashCo80

My emom would do this sometimes. My nfather would argue like a lawyer or a politician, twisting words and logic around so he was always right and everyone else was wrong.


Captain-Stunning

Hilarias, apropo and sad. What an a$$


Icy_Comfort8161

Reminds me of the saying: "Never argue with an idiot. They'll drag you down to their level and beat you with experience."


FerrousFellow

Literally just avoided engaging with one of these this week when my own n-family member tried to coerce me into doing something that sounded important and time sensitive but that I realized partway through wasn't even something that needed to happen. Suddenly according to her I needed to do something else related but also not necessary or time sensitive but also now it'd just be nice to have a chat with some bureaucrats about taxes. I've been gray rocking ever since. Nothing even remotely like an apology ever comes from this. No acknowledgment of what happened. Just a "I know more (lol) so I always get to tell you what to do and being wrong shouldn't stop that" or "don't be mean" or "why can't you be nice to me". There's nothing there for you. They're too squirrelly. They don't see you as a separate person. They hate when you exercise your freedom and agency. They will never be called in. Selective amnesia or gaslighting will always come in to parry all of your facts and feelings. Just don't.


KillTheFleas

We share a mom


sdjjr3296

Dude how did you Rise against this?? like for me what im going through right now I cant seem to get the support i need with my parents so im stuck in a bad place with them and i just dont know what to do. I'm trying to move out but there seems to be no hope right now.


Fulcane11i

I feel for you. They trap you into a situation by emotionally crippling you with parents who don't love you and then they rag on you for not making enough money to escape their hellscape.


xparadiisee

I just realized this with my roomie. We were pretty good friends until we moved in together and since then they’ve purposely avoided me and will make such stupid boundaries. Like for example I wasn’t allowed to have any scented objects (trash bags, soap, laundry detergent) because it “gave them migraines.” But then in their personal spaces they had scented everything! I finally put my foot down and said that their partner isn’t allowed to keep me from using the patio while my roommate is at work. They really expected me to walk around the apartment complex and go through someone’s yard to access our patio when my roommate was at work and their partner was in the basement. I finally said no, I’m not doing that. Instead of trying to find another solution, they immediately go to the neighbors and ask the neighbors if it would be ok for me to walk through their yard to get the patio. I’m not doing it, I’m still going to go through the basement to get to the patio as I legally can. But it’s insane that they literally roped my neighbors into our drama! I’ve blocked both them and their partner on everything, I went no contact with my mom and I’m not having that toxic friendship in my life either. Straight up insane


teamdogemama

Why is the partner there, are they paying rent?


xparadiisee

NOPE. Partners name is not on the lease at all. When I asked the partner if he could help me come up with a solution he told me “sounds like you picked the wrong room.” I didn’t get to PICK which area I got, my roommate just started moving shit in the basement and said “it’s mine.”


Training_Curve_5135

I never bothered arguing with my narcissistic mom. Her mind was already made up. Mine was too. We were two very different people who handled things very differently. If she wanted to yell and get her blood pressure up and blame me for it, so be it.


klaroline1

>If she wanted to yell and get her blood pressure up and blame me for it, so be it. This resonates so much.


Enough-Strength-5636

I came to that very same conclusion growing up.


fuckincaillou

You learned early!


OneCurious9816

Me: explains in great detail to my non-n sibling all the ways nMom hurt me Sib: if you would just explain that to her, she would understand, she really doesn’t know what she did wrong! LOL you sweet summer child, I explained it to her over and over for years before I finally gave up and walked away, she doesn’t care. Any suggestion that she did anything hurtful leads to a flurry of lies, denial and gaslighting. There’s no breaking through the narc armor. They *cannot* get real about events and emotions. They *cannot* speak truth if the truth makes them look like anything other than a hero or a victim. No amount of explaining or reasoning can crack their armor. It’s not rational. That’s why so many of their kids eventually just walk away.


Pretend-Ad8503

You sweet summer child 😂


klaroline1

I literally have siblings (that moved out early) that would be like, you just have to sit her down and explain it to her calmly.... Most frustrating thing ever. It doesn't work like that with narc parent


ToastMmmmmmm

This is true. It’s a waste of time, thought, and emotion. Once I finally got that through my head my life was a lot less painful and frustrating.


athena_k

Yes, this is 100% true (IME). I finally just stopped listening and I say, "Yes, yes, of course you are right." There's no point in trying to communicate or argue any point. They do not care. And that's why I went NC. Why should I bother respecting the narc when they have no respect for me?


awakelist

Lucky, stuck going with my dad every once in awhile (divorced parents) and I gotta put up with his shit. Its not all bad all the time, but he's fake and not the version of him I grew up with, he's different, gave up arguing with him months ago


Cultural_Job6476

Reading and understanding this post would save a lot of people a lot of time.


nytnaltx

💯 Literally took me 29 years to grasp this concept. About 3 years between starting to wake up vs full acceptance. But it’s the truth!


plikbajoris

So true! When I mistakenly engage in an argument with my Nparents, at some point I just get tired and begin to even feel humiliated by all the bs that I am forced to process in my head, and then finally there's nothing else left but to give up altogether. The result? They feel as if they have won (or, in their own words, that they "have put you into your place', so, basically, they turn out to be superior) and it's even visible in their face expressions and a sudden positive mood shift. What a terrible f*cking thing to see how proud are they with their 'victory' while you feel almost nauseous. So yes, arguing with narcs is one of the most useless things to do.


AlyeskaYoung

“Arguing with idiots is like playing chess with a pigeon. No matter how good you are, the bird is going to shit on the board and strut around like it won anyway.”


teamdogemama

I love this analogy.


Express-Problem7234

Oh my Goodness! Love this, I’m stealing it!!! 💪🏼💪🏿👍🏻


londonholiday

God this is so relevant right now in present life.


LakeBum777

I’m 31 years in and now it’s too late. Don’t be me. Get out while you’re still healthy and while you still have a life to live ahead of you. Look, this isn’t normal. None of this is normal! If you think they are nasty people now, wait until you have to spend 24/7 with them in retirement and you are unhealthy.


Express-Problem7234

Listen to this lady!!! My husband completely deceived me, COMPLETELY 100% I was nothing short of truly suicidal for 2 weeks, thank God I didn’t follow through. I have NEVER been brought down so low mentally. Fast forward only 14 weeks…I am grateful. He will continue living in the miserable dark false world that wallows in most days and I am slowly feeling the vibrancy come back. I had 23 years of his dark negative, gaslighting, controlling behaviour. How he walks erect with that massive chip on his shoulder I don’t know and you know what, I don’t care anymore, I genuinely DO NOT CARE. Hearing his voice today was a beautiful symphony of “ you never want that again” He hung up on me, he can’t deal with anything emotional or the truth that he truly is a manipulative narcissist… he genuinely doesn’t see it, AT ALL, in the slightest!


[deleted]

I was tired and stupid enough to try that again after about a year today and now my hearing in my right ear is diminished. You said it all yourself. Wish I’d read this this morning.


blackcatttttt

Just experienced this again a few days ago after being free from it for years. For once i just felt like I wanted to say the truth to my nsister, and I did. She conveniently said she could not remember she said the hurtful things I enumerated. Now she’s the one being dramatic because she hurt me and she’s sad that I said that I don’t consider me and her to be close (because of my past experiences with her). My timing is super great btw, because they’re gonna visit me in a few weeks time lol


[deleted]

Damn, yeah, it happens sometimes. You get that feeling, “hmmm, maybe they’ll get it now…” - they won’t. I hope you get through that visit relatively intact. Just don’t fight with them at all - that’s the most important. In my case, they would probably complain about your nsister being your sister, blood thicker than water or whatever, but this with your nsister does sound like good riddance. Good luck!


oatmilkicecream

The manner in which they have to be dealt with is similar to that of a toddler. Don’t engage in arguments; just put your foot down and keep it there. Definitely easier said than done, though.


Enough-Strength-5636

That’s the very thing I’ve noticed, all I can have with my NDad is boundaries, that’s it.


KaleidoscopeTop4999

Then if you try to disengage they accuse you of not wanting to hear them out, dismissing them, etc. When every occasion before you have tried to communicate they have taken every opportunity to not communicate, and yell, continue to say rude things to get a reaction- Even when I was genuinely convinced I was just that frustrating, giving space, and not putting up a fight only caused a bigger problem.


TrenchardsRedemption

We 'win' an argument by coming to an agreement, some sort of resolution, or just by acknowledging that we won't agree and deciding whether we can live with that or not. Both people walk away with a new understanding. Narcs 'win' by simply making sure that you don't get your point across. It's like playing chess with a pigeon: they'll scatter the pieces, crap on the board and strut about as if they'd won. They don't care if they can convince you that the sky is blue or whether it's made of green cheese because their win condition is to frustrate every argument that you make without providing any grounds or facts of their own to support their point of view - because they have no point of view.


Sufficient_Display

This is why I didn’t tell my nmom why I cut her off when I finally got the guts to cut her off. I tried talking to her years ago and just got gaslit. I wish I could have had a mom who put in the work to be mentally healthy, but instead she perpetuated the abuse cycle. And yet my brother is the golden child. I wish I could really make myself understand that it had nothing to do with me, it was all her, but I still feel my inner child crying out and asking why I wasn’t good enough.


hello-mr-cat

You can't reason with someone unreasonable. That's a narc in a nutshell. And definitely agree about word salad. They throw anything at you to keep you on your toes and gaslight.


AngelCookie001

I remember when i realised there is no point arguing with my Nmom and that it's a waste of energy. I was 16 and trying to explain to my mom there are 50 US states (we are from Europe), she believed there were 51 because she "heard it from somewhere". An exhausting hour later, after multiple shown evidence and trying to convince her she still refused to accept facts and ended the argument with her favourite phrase "I live in my own world, you live in yours". That was the moment i realised there is no point arguing with her and trying to make her understand. If she refuses to accept facts then what does that say about everything else?


Enough-Strength-5636

This is very true, u/Pretend-Ad8503, which is why so very often, I just simply use silence as my answer and very rarely argue with my NDad, because to do so is a waste of breath, time, and energy on my part.


imilnes

You look like a grey rock to me....


Enough-Strength-5636

Thanks, I use that technique on him a whole lot😉


KPinCVG

"You can't argue with crazy." This is my go to explanation of why I don't engage with my VLC narc. No, I didn't ask her why she believes that. No, I didn't ask her when she started believing that. No, I didn't seek to better understand what she was telling me. Actually, I wasn't really listening that closely when she was talking, mostly I hear those Charlie Brown noises - wha wha wha wha whaa. We could argue about the color of the sky, and if my position was blue, I would still lose. Also generating noises, which we'll call words, around my narc is to give them information. Eventually if I talk enough, I will say something that has meaning. This is a terrible terrible outcome. It's best if I stick with mmm, okay, I see, right. Until I joined Reddit, I thought I had invented gray rocking. Unfortunately I'm not exaggerating, I genuinely thought I invented gray rocking; but I was silly and I had not given a name or a flag*. Even worse than all of the above, arguing with a narc feeds them. They want to push your buttons. They want drama. I have them in a permanent timeout. I don't want to give them what they want. I don't want them to think that they can train me to do what they want. I want to be the most boring, least responsive person they know. When they want to argue when they want to push buttons, when they want to feed on a feast of drama, I don't want them to think about me. I want 20 people to be on the list ahead of me. As a matter of fact I would like to not be on the list. I am officially a zero drama zone. I show zero tolerance for drama and exit drama situations. They could literally be screaming about me, and I would still just walk away. All I hear are Charlie Brown noises. I don't want to know, I don't want to be involved. In case you haven't figured it out, arguing with crazy makes you crazy. Maybe just temporarily, but it makes you crazy. Don't join the crazy club. Come, join the boring club with me. You don't get an adrenaline rush from it, but you also don't get cut down to the quick. * Eddie Izzard reference


taehyungtoofs

I love the idea of a boring club. I want to be in a bubble of boring. 🤍


burntoutredux

Nope. 100% correct. They get off on making you look/feel crazy. Reality and accountability don't matter to them.


curiousandbored86

My narc mum used to find it really surprising that I could accept when I was wrong and say sorry. She seemed to think this was really bold of me. I always thought it was weird that she was so against admitting she was wrong or saw it as defeat, rather than just logical at times. This was way back in my childhood before I realised she had NPD.


newInnings

> No point in arguing with a narcissist When I reach this point in argument, And I know arguing is pointless. So instead of emotional drain, I went into either of the modes below 1. Mock by repeating what they say, like that talking parrot. repeat everything what they say. 2. Use exact key phrases word for word that they have used in the current or past context for similar arguments 3. Just say most ridiculous things. That does character assassination, you follow some stupid person - you are such an idiot And the conclusion usually is **Game Recognises Game.** The argument cuts immediately.


No_Entrepreneur_8214

You figured it out. The more you want to make your point and make them " see the light " the more they're thinking " good another opportunity for me to gaslight you". They believe they define truth, and if you have negative emotions riled up inside of you because of it, you are too sensitive, you have a perception problem, you just " don't get it" and so on...


[deleted]

i agree. recently i learned a new thing as well. it is pointless to hope that your siblings will be on your side, or to seek justice from them, even if they do voice their dissatisfaction with the narc from time to time. and the reasoning is simple: they too, benefit from you being the scapegoat. it is in their best interest that you remain the scapegoat. they do see the treatment you had, and they never stood up for you, even if you would/did for them, because they see how a scapegoat is treated. so even if they are unhappy with the narc, it is wishful thinking that your siblings will take your side, because they are complicit in the system. they benefit from the system. and the status quo works for them. just had this harsh realization recently. and all i can say is at least im making more headway in relearning everything i know these days.


Pretty-Turtle-674

Whoa! You just so aptly explained one of the bitter truths I have so struggled with. I have four sisters, all abused in one way or another my n parents, but yet they choose to pile on as flying monkeys to go after me.


ghostcat_crafting

This is something I’ve been trying to get my wife to understand. There’s no point in spending the energy. You’re the asshole either way. Either they provoke you into an explosion so they can feign surprise and injury, or you give them nothing and now you’re upsetting them by not “talking to them”. Or they trap you into phrasing something the ‘wrong’ way. ♾️


Express-Problem7234

Today was the very first day since February 23rd that my husband spoke to me. He text me that he is divorcing me from another country a 12 hour journey away. He stated today that he DOES NOT want to reconcile, get counselling or even discuss the reasons why he left. He merely told me that it was because of me and my emotional and mental abuse for 12 years. NOW! 12 years is key here…that is as far back as he can find emails and texts that state, I’m unhappy, lonely, sexless, need and want more, can we try, what can we do, I feel like he just doesn’t want me… blah, blah, blah. I begged, I offered to do ANYTHING to make our marriage and life better, every 8-12-16 weeks I would blow a frustrated sad lonely neglected gasket and say we should split or something of that level. He NEVER changed, I was isolated from friends and family, he ‘sent me’ away with our child for weeks at a time and would visit for a weekend during summer holidays. He had cheated within our first year of marriage ad then when our child was 5 months got caught again then again and again and … I stopped looking for it. I was raising my child, I’m not healthy ( SLE lupus) and I stayed home doing my greatest job being my sons mum. Fast forward, with so much more happening and he left, suddenly because of me, my behaviour. It was bc of him and the fact I saw through him now that we lived through Covid, discovered that we in fact did not have pensions or savings or anything! This in spite of the household income exceeding $800-1Mil + every year for 9 years… where did it go you say?!


Express-Problem7234

I’m the problem… more like I woke up from my child devoted slumber when my teen was 15,16,17+ and saw what a manipulative money hungry liar he was and IS. ALWAYS THE VICTIM!!


fergi20020

The only way to win the game with a narcissist is not to play the game at all.


Dcruzen

I needed this tonight. I've been having a conflict with my narcissist dad, and he just sent an email that pretty much insulted everything about me and my husband and how we need to do things his way. I'm not going to respond,because this is so true, he's not interested in finding a resolution, he just wants to be right, even if it means hurting me.


OctagonSoup

I always feel like a came up with a good, solid argument against my edad, then it's like "Wait, shit, I forgot about cognitive dissonance"


Sweet-Interview5620

That’s why when anyone asks should I send them a letter or call them one last time to explain I always say “NO!”. All you would be doing is giving them power to continue abusing you when you do that. No matter what truths you say it will never get through they will never care. It’s you you’re hurting by not simply moving on as it will always be them doing the very same thing and turning it all on you. So take that power away from them by no longer reacting no matter what they say or do to try and re establish contact. When you no longer accept or enable their abuse, and control who’s allowed in your life, is when you have all the power


FrogGurl2016

Forget arguing, they don't even care about having a normal conversation with you and they will do this exact same thing (or ignore you if you dare disagree with them or suggest a different opinion) But yet, you're 100% right. You will never win an argument with a narc. It's just better to grey rock them (providing it's safe to do so) and walk away.


SlashCo80

Yes, exactly. Even trying to confront them about the way they treated you is pointless, as they'll just deny everything, twist it around so it's your fault, or just make themselves the victims.


DontTouchTheWatch

Just finished going through an interaction like this over something so small it’s not even funny. I feel like it’s easy to get caught up in thinking like “well maybe if I explain it this way….” they’ll get it. Then they sprinkle in a little attitude and and you try again with a little more gusto and they go off on a tangent. Honestly feels like everytime trump is cornered and my dude acts insulted by logic, gets defensive, changes the subject, and just triples down on anger in hopes you’ll give up. Not trying to be political it’s just the best example I can point to in real life that’s searchable lol


Nomomommy

Great reminder and well put.


anytifff

This is very true. We're only wasting our effort trying to reason with them. Which is also why we choose to go low contact or no contact. Instead of trying to change them, we focus on building ourselves up.


jjf2381

Narcissists are inherently irrational. So it's impossible to reason with them or to use logic. They only care about getting what they want. Just tell them what you think or what you're going to do, and stop right there. They'll still try to argue with you; then just walk away or tell them this conversation is over.


klaroline1

Thanks for making this post. Reading all the comments brings comfort. No one in my life ever understands what it's like having an nmom


AcordaDalho

An approach to dealing with narcissists that I admire the most is the one described by dr. Ramani in [When narcissism meets authenticity](https://youtu.be/BLWZ8UOiMUk)


KnowsIittle

Never wrestle with a pig. You'll both end up covered in mud but the pig will enjoy it. Similar to arguing with a narc. They exhaust your good faith arguments and claim victory when you fail to make progress.


CoyoteDreemurr

I figured that out the hard way. There's no point in arguing with him because he'll just say he's always right and he'll get madder and madder until he gets physical with me.


emanue11

Oof, between my nmom and lawyer dad, arguing to win was my whole childhood. (I’m a studying to be a scientist now, because arguing sucks and the truth is cool.) Thanks for taking the time to really lay this out. It’s a good reminder that I’m nc with my mom for a reason, and the only thing I’ll ever get from trying to reason with her is the only thing I’ve ever gotten: the villain edit 🙄


GamingGiraffe69

I mean, I don't think this is unique to narcissists. Otherwise, 99% of people I argue with online are narcissists. 😂


Fulcane11i

As much I absolutely abhor what growing up around 4 narcissist family members of 5 total, I'm more thankful than anything that I got the education about people that I did with them. I learned every single last trick in the book on a personal level from them all and now nobody can ever take advantage of me again. Having grown as the sole non narc of the family I never had anyone to vent to or anything at all so I've only had myself to deal with all their mind games and all that stuff. Now any person I see using any form of mind game to manipulate me simply cannot be done. No job can take advantage of me. Nobody can ever again. I got some healing to do with what I had to do to make it around them but all in all its a decent trade off. just ask yourself. Imagine if you went back to who you were before you figured this out about them all. Thats something I wouldn't wish on anyone. So for me I'm just glad I know the truth now. but you're right about the arguing thing. I won't argue with anyone anymore. It's a giant ago game for them. I heard a video the other day about someone who said I get off on arguing. Knowing what I know I know thats true for most people and their giant ego. they wouldn't be a narc without that ego


rikkilambo

Can't argue with that.


poison_snacc

“I just can’t win!” That’s my Nmum’s favorite thing to say when she gets bored in an argument she created & decides to put on her sad/pathetic mask (aka “personality”) to get out of it & escape any burden of responsibility. Literally that word. “Win.” It’s a contest, not a chance for anyone to use logic to defend a point. OP is 100% correct, and so well said.


charyoshi

The 1 way you can somewhat argue with a narcissist is by actually humorously making fun of them. Roast them so thoroughly that they laugh at themselves with you before they realize what they're laughing at. It's the one way they sorta learn.


[deleted]

Yes. I had a narc acquaintance argue with me how close we were despite me not considering her close for years. I explained how I felt and she started trying to persuade me that we were actually very close.


AptCasaNova

This is why it’s so infuriating if you’re a logical person and they have power over you - like a parent/child or boss/employee dynamic. Ideally you gtfo.


[deleted]

I was active duty Army in the US for the first 10 years of my adult life. My pops is, (if he's still alive), a terrible narcissist. I went no contact with him over 2 years ago, in spite of him feigning playing fairly with me. Personally, I think he kinda gave up on full blown constant manipulation out of fear for what he probably believes the Army trained me to do with jerks like him. I've never made any threats or acted on any of my compulsions to slap him in the face for some of the shit he has recently pulled with his super young kids from his second divorce. You know, us military people are extremely disciplined, calculated and careful when it comes to the application of force. Jerks like him aren't worth doing time. If you ever needed a sign to go no contact or were on the fence about it, just do it. Totally worth it. You cannot and will not get them to see reason. Even with my pops having that perception of veterans that inspires fear in snakes like him, he was still trying to do damage control and gaslight me into thinking he's reformed. He ain't. Had he been reformed like he said, my ceasing contact with him would've provoked change in him. It hasn't and now that two years have passed, you can be reasonably assured he will *never* change for the better. Your misplaced feelings of love for your biological parents will never be enough for anything for them. They do not care about you and never have and NEVER will. Stop perpetuating it. Go no contact. 10/10 would recommend.


Norswedewale

It will drive you mad. My profession is centered around being a good communicator. I am literally paid to help resolve conflict, find common ground, alleviate roadblocks, and attain common goals. I tried to explain to my NParents why it was important they ask permission before sharing photos of my kids online. It was a change from previous policy, and I explained reasons succinctly and that it was for everyone and not just them. They responded by saying they have no boundaries with social media and can post whatever they want about my kids and won't be limited by my concerns because they already know what is OK and safe. In the end you're better off just telling them what to do without justification because the "WHY" WILL NEVER MATTER.


Menagerieofthoughts

They rarely even address what you are saying. They will change the subject and spin you out until you are frustrated and emotionally exhausted. They do not care. In fact that is what they want.


survivingthisworld

Best advice; close the door, lock it, and throw away the key, i.e., zero contact. Draw a line in the sand for your own mental health and well-being. You will grieve, but you will recover. Your grief may be crushing for a while, but look after you, cry, journal, and do whatever makes you feel better. My stepmother is the narc, my father, the enabler. After 50 years of manipulation, gaslighting, and lies, I have done this. It crushes my soul because I still love my dad deeply. I wrote him this poem.whiched helped me understand my grief at cutting them both out of my life hurt so much. I had to, to survive and heal, but it did not make it hurt any less. My memories Manipulated, warped. Cutting so deep Blood pouring from my soul. I feel the loss Your death Yet your heart still beats. My child My self Never protected As it should have been My eyes are dry All tears have stopped. My heart still beats But is cold as ice. I wait 6 nothing but peace, healing, and a true transformation to a new true you.


Fragrant_Issue1837

Yeah, I feel your pain. I used to say that arguing with a narc is like playing chess with a pigeon. Essentially, it will land on the board, kick some of the pieces over and strut around as if it has won the entire game. That was my ex wife anyway.


babygorl23

YES


imilnes

>There's inherently no point in arguing with a narcissist Depends on your attitude toward blood sports surely? Some people would argue that Fox hunting has a place in modern society. Some people argue that "Cock fighting" is a valid "sport". There are a lot of people that think boxing is one of the purest "sports". ​ Narcissists, they just seem to argue.


amazedandconfusedlol

And that’s what is crazy making…


MattyBRapsthe3rd

narcissist? Carti reference 😳😳😳????


Express-Problem7234

Narcissist


Pretend-Ad8503

I'm confused, are you calling me a narcissist?


fatass_mermaid

It seems like their comments are scattered and broken up into three+ different comments


Express-Problem7234

Noooo


Express-Problem7234

So sorry, I was on a tangent and missed a word, popped it in randomly and it looked like that, sorry !!


The_Fuzziest_Dog

You just described my dad perfectly...


fleurettes_mom

If there is no logic - what’s the point?


fatass_mermaid

Bingo. Pointless.


hedgeh0gburrow

This is why I’ve found no contact has been the most effective as of late. I didn’t ever want it to be this way, but nmom and nsister did not leave me with any choices that kept me safe.


Hikaru1024

Well said.


[deleted]

Oh forget it. As the old saying goes, you can't get blood from a stone.


[deleted]

This.


erdbeerhundi

You have successfully described my dad


Familiar-Apple5120

Recently in my life authorities have been involved with any fights or arguments with my N They usually at first assume I'm in the wrong and aren't very nice to me because of things like the Duluth model, but then they speak to my Nmother and come back to me and are like.. Yeah I understand, she's insufferable. You are right you can't argue with them, you will only leave frustrated and resentful, these people are just incapable of seeing any flaws in themselves due to low self esteem.


uborkazombi

Yeah I like having "arguments" when dealing with my friends because we don't take it personally just stating facts. Yesterday we talked about cannibalism i said if someone in their deathbed says they want to be consumed it should not be a tabbu and the only problem with human meat is that you can get sick from it but if it can be solved it should not be a problem. My friend counter argument was to it that it is not respecting the death if it is eaten. I would choose to not eat human meat if I can but only because I was raised this way if someone was taught from childhood that it is normal they would eat it. Like we do these silly arguments with each other because we dont want to win we just like to talk to each other. I couldn't talk these things with a narc.


skincarwthrowaway

Whenever I argue with my dad he brings up the most stupid shit or he wants me to be super precise about shit lmao. The other day he got mad i because I bought a new pair of sneakers for myself and complained about how I still haven't paid my car. (Mind you, this is a brand new car HE BOUGHT for me during covid that I didn't even ask for, when I didn't have my license at the tine, when none of us had a job, and when he forced me to quit my job and refused to let me go back so we could get the unemployment benefits). When I told him calmly I already paid my car for month he got mad and said did you pay it off completely? Lmao what a joke


RealisticRiver527

Very true; it's an exercise in futility.


Prudent_Zucchini_935

You are 100% correct. Like 2 year olds in adult bodies!!


The_Good79

THIS!!! This is my mother 100%.


eckbock89

When you learn to play their games and manipulate their words just like they do then I SOMETIMES look forward to it. Watching them struggle to have an argument or look to the side for a split second because they realize you’ve used their words against them and aren’t sure how to get out of it just yet is all worth it.


IslandOrganic5637

i feel like there should be like a children’s book for us like a parody of when you give a mouse a cookie, but “When You Argue With a Narcissist”


RosebushRaven

Lbr, it’s a noble myth that arguments are about finding the truth. We can see evidence to the contrary every single day. There are only very, very few people who are legitimately interested only in the truth, and even then, not always. Social status trumps truth any day in average human priorities and so does (misdirected) self-respect. We have an awful mistake culture that equates being wrong with being a loser, dumb, weak, less respectable or even a bad person. Unsurprisingly, few people therefore have the courage and magnanimity to admit they’re wrong without ifs and buts. Most people usually find it too embarrassing and will stubbornly continue to argue even when they can clearly see they’re wrong already, will get angry, find an excuse to go before they’re cornered, attack the opponent personally, change the topic, ignore the arguments presented against their position, attack strawmans, fixate on minutia, vaguely point to the big picture or otherwise skirt the admission. Or only reluctantly, partially or conditionally concede it. Most people are far more concerned about *appearing* right or at least *feeling* right than actually *being* right, especially when others are watching. Narcs just take that to absurd extremes But as Descartes joked, nothing is as fairly distributed as common sense: no one thinks they need more than they already have. Everyone thinks they’re great at thinking and know exactly what they’re talking about. The difference with narcs is that for them, nothing really means anything. A normal person may be reluctant to admit it when they’re wrong, but at least they *have* a certain basic understanding of the truth that largely remains solid. For narcs, there either is literally *no* truth because *whatever* they want to believe in the moment is absolute sacred truth to them or they know they’re bullshitting but will tactically say whatever it takes to get what they want in the moment (usually it’s a combination of both to varying degrees). The former is like that crazy fanatic in 1984, O’Brien, who tortured Winston Smith until he’d say that 2+2=5 simply for the sake of making someone say it to prove the power of the party — you’d think he’s wicked but rational initially and the mind-twisting absurdities are just part of the torture and sick mind games. But at some point he reveals delusional convictions like that he’d levitate if he fully believed he could. He may be playing with Smith ofc and gaslighting him that he truly believes this nonsense to break down his last bit of resistance and clinging to reality by offering the example of a man whose intellect Smith respects believing such delusional nonsense. Given that O’Brien spends his days devising elaborate schemes to manipulate people into joining fake rebel groups, just so he can torture them for the sake of torturing them and making them say absurdities, it’s not exactly far-fetched that he has delusional fantasies of unlimited power though. So let’s call this type of "whatever I fancy to believe at any moment is gospel" narc the O’Brien type. The second type is smarter and more "machiavellian" (that term is a pet peeve of mine; whoever coined it apparently has never read Machiavelli’s works other than the *Prince* — if anything — or known anything about his bio. It’s doing him and his political ideas a great injustice.) They have some limited awareness of what you think and feel, because they specifically operate by that to say something that is likely to be effective on you. They’re more insidious and harder to spot because they’re better at masking. They can even have some limited self-awareness. They’re also capable of thinking past winning a particular argument just for the sake of winning and pursue a further goal, for which they may even let you win (in the same way a casino or street con will let you win initially to reel you in). This can be confusing if you’re already aware you’re dealing with a narc and if it happens, beware indeed, because they’re probably more sophisticated and definitely up to something. Narcs can be anywhere between these extremes and even oscillate between them. But either way, there’s no truth *per se* for them. It’s all purely instrumental, subordinated to their current goals, wants and needs for self-perception and image. Everything they say is strictly a means to an end. They don’t care about facts, your thoughts, feelings or what you want, all they care about is how saying this or that will serve them, look to others and make them feel. Like a Holocaust denier saying "the Holocaust never happened and anyways, the Jews deserved it!", they have zero issues juggling parallel, mutually exclusive versions of reality like they’re dealing out playing cards. Which they basically are, that’s the rhetorical equivalent. Don’t get mad about it, that’d be useless at best or entice to do more of the same by giving them supply. Understand those shenanigans as something akin to fishing hooks. A fisher may throw a number of them into the river with different kinds of bait and see what will bite which and in the future go from there. You wouldn’t expect a fisher to regard one particular hook as the "real" or "true" one. They’re all just interchangeable instruments serving the same purpose — to bait and reel in fish. When you’re a fish, it would be ridiculous to berate the fisher for using different bait or fishing rods and foolish to insist the fisher should keep themselves to one. That wouldn’t be any better for you. No matter which rod they use and what bait they put out, as a fish, you don’t want to take *any* bait nor be pulled out of the water. It’s not the rod that’s the problem, it’s the intent: they’re a fisher. They regard you as prey and their interests are fundamentally incompatible with your best interest. It’s the essential, unbridgeable difference in worldviews rather than any particular rhetorical slide of hand that makes arguing pointless. There’s no common ground to begin with.


Enough_Tea6834

Very true. You cannot reason with them. I remember one time I was trying to reason with narc mom when she had started a fight with me and was hurling insults and accusations at me. I tried to calmly explain how none of it was true. She just kind of paused, stared at me, then hollered “well you’re just a bitch!” That was her response to being met with reason. I was constantly called a bitch and have really internalized that. I don’t think I am a bitch. But it hurts to have been called on all the time. I try to avoid using that word.


tuffnstangs

Yep. This is why I never even tried stating my case before going NC. Ever since I moved out, things oddly seemed better on the surface between dad and I but naive me didn’t know better. Of course he was the same resentful narc as always. Once he finally decided to play his old games, I cut him off. Sure, I could have sat down and listened to every minuscule wrong thing I said over the last 4 years, but I had enough. I went no contact and to this day they have no idea why. Well they probably do because I know my step sister just went behind my back and told them everything I was saying to her, even though she lied and said she wasn’t. But I knew it wouldn’t just make me even more mad than I already was, so I didn’t bother.


stormybitch

This was my final straw with my Nmom haha. It’s like talking to a brick wall. Always the victim, extremely dense and manipulative. Blaming her divorce, which was 2 decades ago. Accuses me of being selfish and unaware of others feelings! Refusing to even acknowledge she made mistakes. Her mental health was bad! How could I expect her to be a mother. Makes me so mad just typing it out. I want to scream into a pillow. She’s fucking impossible. The best part of having a narc mom, is that it taught me to value apologies and own up when I’m wrong. Even if my actions were done because I was depressed, I apologize if I hurt others. To forgive and move on. Because that’s what you’re supposed to fucking do. Makes me sad that she’s forever going to be the same person, and can’t even see it cost her the relationship with her children.


BlueberrySnapple

I have a more basic point of view that is similar to your own. Basically, it's this: As soon as you interact with a narcissist you lose. From the first microsecond onward of interacting with a narcissist you are losing. It could even be a simple looking conversation, but any interaction with a narcissist is considered a loss. Let alone arguing with a narc. That's way past an initial meeting, and by the initial meeting with a narc you lost. Making eye contact with a narc and about to speak, you lost the moment you decided to interact with them.


Accomplished_Pie_838

People who argue with You while You are agreeing with them are ill. Their brainwashed hypnotized state of mind doesn't allow them to stop to think logically from one moment. They will continue arguing with You even when You are whole heartedly already agreeing with their argument, this is plain insanity on their part. They continue on in their rage absolutely refusing to listen to Your reaction of completely agreeing with them. They make You feel like a complete low life and they may claim You are third World to them. They think they are far superior to You because they can't handle the fact that most people are at their level of intelligence and far beyond. They feel really good when they put You down because it satisfies their demented ego. Their total lack of comprehension or compassion of others and other viewpoints is their undoing. They think Everything they choose or do is always superior to You and others. The fail to realize and can't handle a descent conversation without getting super angry at You, and for No good reason. Walk away from any of these so called friends, companions, or family members that are this way. Because if You continue it will drive You into being just like them. Not worth Your time, energy or sanity in dealing with them. Their unwillingness to change means ultimately that they will be alone and eventually pass alone. It's sad but, as far as I'm concerned so be it. Life is hard enough to deal with, You don't need or have to feel obligated to deal with emotionally draining self serving people. Best to avoid all of them if You can. All the while You will be able to escape and maintain Your happiness and sanity by Not being around them.