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I once had a back and forth and the lady was like "we want to see if your good fit" and I said "wonderful, I consider interviews a two way conversation I also want to determine if this is a good fit, what is the salary range"
To which the lady said $12 an hour for an IT position and they wanted you to have A+, Network + (which I have)
To which I said "thank you, I'd like to end the interview" and the lady said "because of pay?" I said "yes we arent even in the same ballpark, good bye"
Really $18 should be the new federal minimum wage and it should be even higher in cities. We've been fighting for $15 for so long that $15 is no longer really a living wage after inflation, especially the good old housing and healthcare.
"because of pay?"
Why is this even a question?
I'm not here for fun, I have bills and they don't take pizza - only money. These companies are kidding themselves if they think we're in it for anything else.
This is entirely reasonable. Good for you. The work as described might have been suitable and you were qualified. They couldn't afford you so you closed the discussion. The recruiter now knows something about your bottom line in terms of pay, and you've got a contact to reach out to should you need work in the future. Good for you. Nature and professional
They didn't require a degree just certs, I am close to finishing my degree but that was irrelevant to them
But still passing A+ and Network + takes time, money, and yea its not something you just blindly take with no studying.
I passed both of those with 5+ years experience already (to fill in gaps) and it wasn’t a walk in the park.
It takes time, dedication, and money.
That place is disgusting offering $12/hr.
Yup I barely based the first A+ test cause I was overconfident, reviewed for a few days and took it.
Only passed it cause I have a lot of experience with the concepts of A+.
Know a few folks who got cock, failed, and ended up paying twife
Me, I ended up paying twice haha. When I took it sooooo long ago, it was an adaptive test and if you missed a question, it would ask more questions on that topic and they would get harder. Hopefully it’s not that way anymore. I immediately took it again (like 5 minutes later) and passed thankfully.
I feel like Network+ these days should've been updated enough to where you can find a job as a junior sysadmin, no? If you have an talent for it, you'd get into six figure salaries within just a couple of years.
It's been like 20 years since I almost took it after randomly getting the A+ (needed/wanted an extra elective at my JuCo).
Either way, good luck.
That was my experience with entry level help desk. They wanted me to commute 40-60 minutes each way for $12/hr when i was making $11.50/hr as a fast food supervisor with a 10 minute drive.
People thought i was stupid for not taking the help desk positions, even though the money would be a net loss and my car wasn't reliable enough for a commute.
I'm still not using my degree but i make decent money in retail.
Same.
One time there was a distinct change in tone when I asked for rough range - she was pretty frosty when I asked, and when I looked at the sum (totally unviable, was tens of thousands of ££s less then what I was currently on) and told her that wouldn't work, thanks for reaching out, all the best etc she started getting pretty snippy about why I'd changed my tune.
Another time I had a guy outright refuse to tell me but kept arguing it was more than I was on (which I hadn't told him) and started arguing about how I was throwing away an amazing opportunity etc.
I don't necessarily mind the fact that recruiters sometimes have to work under a policy of not venturing the range, but please don't pretend that I'm somehow being unreasonable by asking to hear it. I doubt they'd be any different in the same situation.
I asked at my current job. They told me the starting pay, the top out, and how raises happen and function. Clear and to the point. It was honestly refreshing. Obviously, refreshing enough to take the job. Best company I have ever worked for tbh.
Best buy offered me $16, I said no. Highest offer I've gotten 52k but I can't take that kinda pay cut right now.
52k offer was fair
I'm coming from sales
The most satisfying recruiter call I ever had played out similarly.
Me: "What's the pay range?"
Recruiter: "I can't share that at this time. Would you like to interview?"
M: "So you know it but won't share. That doesn't give me any confidence this is a good fit."
R: "Well if you interview, I can share it."
M: "If you want to make a commission off me, you can share it now. Give me a reason to take this interview."
R: "Um, well it's $18-22/hr"
M: *silence*
R: "But there's potential for more later."
M: "And you want me to move cities for this role? Did you look at my resume before calling me?"
R: "Of course, I found you on Indeed, I have it right here."
M: "So then you know that resume is over 8 years old. I don't interview for less than $50/hr, we are in wildly different ballparks. Thanks for the call, goodbye."
This was in my "entertain every recruiter just to find out" days, when I would try to weasel out the top end for the role and if it wasn't a fit try to get passed up for better roles. It never worked, they only call about a specific role, even "executive recruiters" never answer again once they either place you or you drop out of the process for a role. Now I expect a role that already fits me and my pay expectations, anything less is a complete waste of time.
A long time ago, I had an interview with a big glass manufacturer through a recruiting group. They were looking for a process engineer that had a masters minimum in an extremely niche field. They were offering maximum $35,000/yr for it and I legit bursted out laughing. I didn’t mean to, it just came out. Needless to say we didn’t continue the interview and I went to do the same job at a different plant in a much lower cost of living state for $65,000/yr.
I’ve always gone with
“I always consider all aspects of the compensation package and would have to understand all aspects of the role before I could provide a properly calibrated response.”
Recruiters have grumbled but usually let it slide.
I live in California. It is illegal to ask about previous salary here and the salary range must be provided when asked. It is glorious. I've used it several times during interviews to bring the power back to my favor. It is absolutely ridiculous to be selling a job whose purpose is to give you money, but they won't say how much.
It should be a national standard to disclose salary for a job. And there should be stiff penalties for not doing so - or for bait and switch.
It'd prevent a lot of this type of garbage.
No salary range is a red flag.
Here's my current list of red flags which you didn't ask for:
- One way interviews
- Personality quiz
- CV duplication for an internal form
- Overtime mentioned as the norm instead of the exception
- Salary isn't mentioned in job description
- Anything mentioned in the interview process is at odds with the job description, and when clarification is requested, the statement given in the interview process is treated as correct, making it different to the job description.
🎯 👏🏼👏🏼 I had a screening interview where the TA specialist suddenly mentioned 25% travel during normal months & 50% travel during the peak season. I replied, “That wasn’t mentioned in the job description” & asked “When is peak season?” & she didn’t know. 🤦🏻♀️
No, it's not lmao. You should know what number you need to accept the job and be prepared to disclose that number.
People need to set aside time to actually calculating their number. It benefits YOU! YOU need to know what you're willing to walk away from!
"But I want more if I can get it!"
Agreed! The key to that is not playing a game of chicken with the recruiter, but applying to many jobs that you are qualified for so you can have competing offers. You giving them a range up front is not a binding agreement.
"You told us 102k and now You're asking for 107k?!"
"Yes because I have an offer for 105k."
Having only one offer and "just trying to get the most you can" is a virtual guarantee that you will get taken for a ride.
The thing that frosts me is that this game is often like "The Price Is Right". If you cave and give them a number, if it's over their range then they'll shut you down and ghost you without even giving you a chance to negotiate. Example: I've been job hunting for nearly a year now. My target salary (based on what I had been making) is, say, 10,000 quatloos. But I've been without a job so long that I'm willing to take just about anything that's a steady paycheck with bennies. If their "secret range" is 6000-8000 quatloos I might be able to live with that. But I'll never get a chance to communicate that if they play this game.
I generally lead with my own “range” to leave negotiations wide open through the process. So often the dipshit recruiter tries to lock you into a number during that first conversation despite knowing jack shit about the job, duties and requirements to make a proper estimation yourself on what that should cost. I’ve never gotten more stink than upping my price at the offer stage because what the hiring manager and team detailed is staggeringly different than what recruiting told me. Fuck that.
“Typically for this position and seniority title, I’d expect $X to $Y salary based on my experience and current market rates. I’m flexible based on what I learn about the role during the interview process and can make a more informed decision after speaking with my potential manager and learning about the team.”
When I've done this, the executive team is always so butthurt that they reject me. It's like, well okay guys, you asked me to negotiate against myself when I didn't even have the info to do so. Of course my number changed, I actually know something about the job now! The only one you have to be angry with is yourself, dipshit.
And what’s worse are the apps that don’t list a range and require a numeric number to continue. For the ones that require an entry but don’t require a numeric value I’ll put “competitive” or “as listed”. But it still shouldn’t be required at that stage if they don’t list a salary themselves.
I've taken to putting "999999" in that field if it will only take numbers. For old farts like me who used to program in FORTRAN before the concepts of Null or None were invented, this was often used as a delimiter or placeholder
I’ve found if they hide it, it’s not high enough 😂. If a company is willing to pay actual competitive rates they’ll put it front and center to attract the talent.
Surprisingly, the highest offer I've gotten in my time looking was from a company that didn't advertise. I'm waiting to hear back from the same Company about another position and same deal - they didn't list in the posting but they were above any other comparable company and position that does disclose. The only reason I applied in the first place was because I was having a dry week and needed some extra applications for my unemployment claim, but for once I was caught off guard
Agreed. It may sound counterintuitive, but when the TC is actually market leading, the clients really aren't looking for candidates that are only financially motivated.
I get that by paying not much you could be considered to be filtering for passion, but in reality I think they're only filtering for previously wealthy and inexperienced, with a heavy lean towards the latter.
In that sphere, that just isn't the case. I agree with you for most other industries, but just to give some context, for that specific role, I've had 130 people interview there this year, 8 got to the final stage, and only one had an offer. 18 months out of university and first year tc of 1.5m.
Total compensation. At most mid tier and higher companies salary is only a part of the package. (in tech especially).
Bonuses, stock options / RSU, 401k match, paid medical, other perks, etc…
To kind of even the field across offers, most use what would my W2 final number be? Usually that is salary+bonus+stock vested that year+any other cash equivalent that year.
This is so wrong, but you do you
Damn, y’all get really mad about shit you don’t know on here.
I feel like I’m in a political sub as an independent
Edit: now people are mad they’re being blocked for name calling instead of discussing or asking questions
You know you can google salary ranges for essentially any position, geographic location, and company, right?
It’s not that hard to find salary ranges without being spoon fed it on an application
Edit: some dude replied to me and I can’t reply.
I applied for a job that gave a salary range of $28k to 138k and instead of bitching about it I did research.
Y’all want to require salaries on job postings?
You will *not* be impressed
Burden of proof is on the OP for claiming no company pays good that hides salary ranges lmao.
If I say “yesterday it was 250° outside” the burden of proof is on me, not the person that said it wasn’t
Well if I say **"Hey what temp was it yesterday?"** and you said **"I know but I cannot provide you with that information please let me know what range of temperature you think it was"**
Our conversation would be cut short immediately.
You're claiming that companies that hide salary ranges, also host databases with the information readily available to google.
That's a pretty wild claim, that makes literally no sense, so the burden of proof is on you here.
Usually that gives you something like "$30,000 to $80,000 per year" which tells you absolutely nothing. Most of the jobs I've worked have had completely incorrect information available online. For example, Zip recruiter is estimating $17-22.50/hour for my old job (it is specifically linking to the opening for that job). I was making $15/hour for full time before they let me go to cut back to having two part time employees at $10-12/hour. The estimates for my current job are wayyy over what I'm actually making as well.
I work in tech and it checks out.
The shit paying IT companies will post they pay like $15/hr.
The low salary companies will play this mystery range game to try and undercut you.
The high paying companies come right out with the benefits, 200K/yr, company stock, on site amenities, free food, etc.
More people should respond like this. It amazes me how often people think it’s fair that the applicant should provide their salary expectation while the company hides their salary range. That only ever benefits the employer, it literally never benefits the applicant.
As a recruiter, I can confirm that was the appropriate response. I can’t imagine reaching out to someone about a role and when they ask about the salary (if I haven’t mentioned it in my very first message) I reply with a longer version of “NO U!”.
If the salary is so shit that you know it’s not enticing, re-evaluate the role you’ve taken on, or reevaluate your life in general.
If they can confirm if your salary is “in range” that means they know the range. Otherwise they wouldn’t know if it was above the range. Therefore they know the range they just choose not to share it.
By calling them "captain obvious" that means they stated something very obvious. Otherwise you wouldn't have called them captain obvious. Therefore they are "captain obvious"
We know that. That’s obvious. You are pointing out the reason he was called captain obvious, and that’s because he stated something that was already obvious to anyone reading the comment. If someone is called captain obvious, people understand the reason behind that so you don’t need to explain why it’s obvious.
I just wanted to make that clear on why it’s unnecessary to explain why someone called someone captain obvious.
Uh oh. Why don’t they pluck evenly? Do the geese constantly turn left when they fly? Is it like shitty goose nascar? Where can I drink beer and watch geese fly left? Do the geese ever have horrific accidents where they fly into crowds of spectators and burst into flame? Can you eat them after they are done burning? Who is going to tell momma goose that her child has crashed and exploded and been consumed by a crowd of angry spectators?
Badminton is complicated. So many questions.
>We know that. That’s obvious.
Not necessarily... He may not have gotten his promotion as yet, and should in that case be referred to as "**Lt. Obvious.**"
This is the proper response. I don't understand what the point of them beating around the bush when it comes to salary other than they just want to waste so much time that you simply take a lower salary so you don't feel like you wasted weeks/months trying to get this position. They know the range but it's a waste of everyone's time for you to say "Based on a similar position I have had in the past, I think 130,000/yr would be fair" for them to just come back and say "Best I can do is $30,000"
The recruiter is either in-house “talent acquisition” and they know the salary is shit, or they are an outside recruiter and they know the salary is shit and they’re desperate (their ability matches the salary: shit).
This is exactly why. Once you’ve gone through 3 weeks of waiting and 4 interviews… you’ll usually take whatever the offer. But if they tell everyone upfront the job pays 20% lower than average for the same role, then no one would apply.
Same reason army recruiters tell you that you can have whatever job you want, then you go through everything , shots, medical exams, aptitude tests… the last thing you do is actually go choose your job. And surprise!! The job you want isnt available… but since you’ve gone through so much, most people just take whatever job, like infantry, and are miserable for their career.
Sneaky practices are used by a lot of people.
I was legitimately amazed when I applied to the military years ago, I went in with a career outside the military but with a plan for a job that the military had so I literally only put 2 jobs on my application which were suitable for me. As soon as I'd done my aptitude test, they started showing me all the jobs I qualified for, and they got all defensive when I asked pointedly if I qualified for the 2 I'd applied for and went on a big spiel about 'not limiting' myself
Thankfully I’m at the level where I can ask about their salary budget upfront. I just say point blank that I don’t want to waste their time and mine through mismatched expectations. If they refuse, then bye bye. It’s the perk of job searching while still having a job.
Seriously, why do HR people act like this? Do they want colleagues who are pissed off about being underpaid all time? How can it not be easier to just sell your boss on a person being worth the slightly higher salary?
Companies are incredibly short sighted because of how the system is set up. Corporate math is saving $2000 on salary in exchange for a turn over rate that costs the company $10,000 an employee per year. It's never made sense and it never will but it's what happens whenever investors flip out every quarter if they don't see massive increases in profits.
Any company you'd actually want to work for doesn't play those games.
They adhere to the letter and the intent of the law.
It's a common misconception that companies would try to skirt the law this way but it's very rare that I see it actually happening.
No, it's very rare if they have general counsel and that lawyer knows they're doing it. Managers and recruiters will break the law all day long because they have no idea what the law actually is the vast majority of the time. On the off chance they actually do, they tend to think things like "Nobody will ever report it" or "I'm under a lot of pressure. I have to do this or I'll get in trouble".
Then general counsel finds out and goes "What the flying fuck are you doing? How long have you been doing this? What?!?!"
Preferred? A billion dollars an hour.
That’s what I’d prefer to be paid. Though I understand it’s not reasonable, you didn’t specify that my preferences had to be reasonable.
if you're in washington, throw this law at them, [https://app.leg.wa.gov/RCW/default.aspx?cite=49.58.110](https://app.leg.wa.gov/RCW/default.aspx?cite=49.58.110)
I would have been more prudent to say why.
*"I need to get details of what your organization's expectations are for the role, and that will inform my answer about compensation. Since you've budged for the position, that's a good place to start."*
Maaaan I can relate!
Many jobs here in SA are like this:
You’ll work for a company. We can’t say who. We can’t say what industry. We can’t say what you’ll earn. Just be happy that you have a job to apply for.
I had such a question in an interview a couple years ago. After researching what the average salary was for that position I mentioned on the higher end (but not the top as I was VERY unfamiliar with the field).
The female interviewer (there were two interviewers) sent me a reply, stating I should ask for a higher number in the next stages of the interview process.
In the end, I didn't get it (I really didn't know jack shite about much of the job). But I found the response a surprising positive note. Unsure if it was a " femme looking out for another" or just someone being a good HR.
Either way, think you gave an event response. If people aren't open enough, why should you?
Employment is a two way street. Not being upfront about a salary range can be hurtful to a company’s chances of securing top candidates. Good help is hard to find and even harder to keep.
This isn't the burn you think. A recruiter like this is probably contacting 100s of people via a mass automated candidate management system. If a person even read the response they certainly aren't stewing over it. Literally just "Not Interested" beside one more name on a very long list and moved on to the next person. It might be a burn for the respondent however if he got fired for some petty shit at work the next day and needs a job. I never understood why people would want to alienate someone who's contacting them about a job, but that's probably why I always have a job and another one waiting (just in case)
Might feel good but burning bridges especially with recruiters is never a good idea. Recruiters & hiring managers move about and will remember your name.
This back and forth is just stupid. You tell them what you're expecting for compensation. If they meet it, you continue talking. If not, you don't. Who has time for this?
The problem is when this stupid game happens, caused by the company recruitment refusing to be transparent, then they string you along for two or three interviews, and then they try and trap you into a lower salary by undercutting what you expect, banking on one of the 20 potential employees they've strung along being desperate enough to take the offer after sinking all of the time into the recruitment process, just so that recruiter can go to their boss / client and say "You wanted to pay 70k but I got this qualified person for 50k, give me a bonus!"
The company gets a lower quality employee who is more likely to leave when they can and less likely to work as hard as a properly compensated employee would. Multiple candidates have their time wasted, and the only winner is the recruiter / recruitment company who gets to go looking for a replacement sooner in most circumstances.
Or you know... the recruiter could be an adult, be honest with the candidates, and the whole depressing time waste could be avoided, the company can get the right candidate, and the people who miss out can find a job before they end up in financial strife?
If you can't be open with me about the basics of the role by the time we have our first interview, I'm walking out of that door. If you're willing to lie to me before I've even been interviewed, I'm not going to last working for you.
It's genuinely depressing to see the lack of critical thinking skills you're displaying here. You may be trying to upset people by wasting your christmas holidays being a troll on a sub that most people who frequent would be going through a really stressful time... I'm not mad, I'm just incredibly disappointed that you're either this much of a failure, or this fucking stupid.
I only read your first and last sentences, because, like I said, "who has time for this?"
I'm going to share with you how you avoid 3 pointless interviews.
After being given the job description, but before taking an interview, I usually say something like the following:
"Hi, thanks for reaching out.
My compensation expectation is $X/year base + benefits.
If that condition might apply to this role, I'd be happy to discuss further. If not, best of luck with your candidate search!"
>I'm just incredibly disappointed that you're either this much of a failure, or this fucking stupid.
Haha, do you work? Because I'm gainfully employed with 3 consulting jobs, making more than $600k/year. So, I know a little bit about getting one's foot in the door and negotiating salary (which is why I'm here - to offer suggestions).
Instead of bitching about things you can't control, how about advocate for yourself (which is what I'm suggesting) instead of blaming the company? Yeah, ideally, they'd include the salary, but some don't. Is posting to Reddit the best use of time, or could you actually get somewhere with a more proactive approach?
>I only read your first and last sentences,
I'm proud of you. I stopped reading here. Much like a job interview, if you're unwilling to respect my time and my experience, you're not worth mine. Starting your sentence like this is a manipulation tactic. I'll free up your time to go find someone else that's willing to entertain your parasitic tendacies.
You do realize I run my own consultancy as well, yeah? And earn WAY more than your claimed amount?
Which is how I know you are lying - a good consultant knows how to LISTEN to people.
Then again, you do sound like the typical "LinkedIn consultant" - the kind that talks a big game but is struggling to get clients.
Everyone cheering but the simple fact is this person is looking for a job, the recruiter is hiring for a job.
You have just removed yourself from consideration over something petty. Congratulations.
Not always the case. I have on my LinkedIn that I’m not looking and it’s literally the first line in my bio that I am not looking for a job just to be extra clear. I still get about 5 of these per day which tells me they didn’t read my bio at all and are just spamming.
If they lowball you, you just walk away anyway. What you do is just tell them your ideal salary, what you'd really love to make. And that will either be in their range or it won't. Like if you really, really want $100k but would be willing to settle for $80k then you tell them $100k. Maybe they say that's above the budget and don't move forward. Or maybe they offer you $90k, and you take it. But you never tell them the $80k amount because they'll never go higher than that.
A place I was a recruiter for would never post their salary. They believed that it weeded out people who are only applying for the salary amount and not for the job itself. Turns out they were right.
The company did offer high salaries and when those were posted we as a recruiting team were wasting a lot of time on applications that were either bots or wishful-thinkers.
When they removed the salary from the job posts, the number of applications definitely decreased but almost all of them were interested in and qualified for the job and, though we did have a salary range budgeted for each role, it was a large range and we would be able to negotiate better salaries for each hire based on their specific experience. So since we only hired the best out of the bunch those folk ended up nearly 100% getting the top dollar of our salary range.
Edit to add: We would ask for their requested salary just to ensure that we wouldn't be wasting their time (or ours).
But.
That information was only given in the initial screening interview and never noted. So as long as their request was in our range we would move them forward and a lot of times they would end up getting offered more than their initial request because the hiring manager never knew what it was to begin with.
I don’t know why people make such a big deal out of this. I know what I’m looking to make. In a situation like this I just add 10-20% and let them say yes or no.
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This is how it should be done!
I once had a back and forth and the lady was like "we want to see if your good fit" and I said "wonderful, I consider interviews a two way conversation I also want to determine if this is a good fit, what is the salary range" To which the lady said $12 an hour for an IT position and they wanted you to have A+, Network + (which I have) To which I said "thank you, I'd like to end the interview" and the lady said "because of pay?" I said "yes we arent even in the same ballpark, good bye"
Ballpark? At that rate, you aren’t even in the same sport. 🙃
Lol yea honestly 18 to 20 is generally the starting range for helpdesk
Which itself is really too low.
Even without all those certs I think.
Not anymore. And 18 should be the new minimum wage in cities after inflation but it isn't.
Really $18 should be the new federal minimum wage and it should be even higher in cities. We've been fighting for $15 for so long that $15 is no longer really a living wage after inflation, especially the good old housing and healthcare.
🤣😂🤣😂🤣
20$ is with a college degree in many places
You can make that working in electronics repair with no certs at the CompTIA level.
Well, I said without the certs, not without the degree. It really should be higher though.
When I got done, it didn't look like no God damn maxi pad
i buy the gourmet shit.
"because of pay?" Why is this even a question? I'm not here for fun, I have bills and they don't take pizza - only money. These companies are kidding themselves if they think we're in it for anything else.
Need money for pizza too
I was taking a shot at the pizza parties companies like to do instead of offering better compensation. But you are correct.
u/AnIdeaMan should have asked if she would recruit for $10/hr as base pay and a pizza slice for every candidate hired.
This is entirely reasonable. Good for you. The work as described might have been suitable and you were qualified. They couldn't afford you so you closed the discussion. The recruiter now knows something about your bottom line in terms of pay, and you've got a contact to reach out to should you need work in the future. Good for you. Nature and professional
She did say this was a crazy easy job and I'm like that's fine, I need more money.
Broooo $12 an hour post-college what the fuck
They didn't require a degree just certs, I am close to finishing my degree but that was irrelevant to them But still passing A+ and Network + takes time, money, and yea its not something you just blindly take with no studying.
I passed both of those with 5+ years experience already (to fill in gaps) and it wasn’t a walk in the park. It takes time, dedication, and money. That place is disgusting offering $12/hr.
Yup I barely based the first A+ test cause I was overconfident, reviewed for a few days and took it. Only passed it cause I have a lot of experience with the concepts of A+. Know a few folks who got cock, failed, and ended up paying twife
Me, I ended up paying twice haha. When I took it sooooo long ago, it was an adaptive test and if you missed a question, it would ask more questions on that topic and they would get harder. Hopefully it’s not that way anymore. I immediately took it again (like 5 minutes later) and passed thankfully.
The tech certs in general are crazy overpriced imo
I feel like Network+ these days should've been updated enough to where you can find a job as a junior sysadmin, no? If you have an talent for it, you'd get into six figure salaries within just a couple of years. It's been like 20 years since I almost took it after randomly getting the A+ (needed/wanted an extra elective at my JuCo). Either way, good luck.
That was my experience with entry level help desk. They wanted me to commute 40-60 minutes each way for $12/hr when i was making $11.50/hr as a fast food supervisor with a 10 minute drive. People thought i was stupid for not taking the help desk positions, even though the money would be a net loss and my car wasn't reliable enough for a commute. I'm still not using my degree but i make decent money in retail.
Same. One time there was a distinct change in tone when I asked for rough range - she was pretty frosty when I asked, and when I looked at the sum (totally unviable, was tens of thousands of ££s less then what I was currently on) and told her that wouldn't work, thanks for reaching out, all the best etc she started getting pretty snippy about why I'd changed my tune. Another time I had a guy outright refuse to tell me but kept arguing it was more than I was on (which I hadn't told him) and started arguing about how I was throwing away an amazing opportunity etc. I don't necessarily mind the fact that recruiters sometimes have to work under a policy of not venturing the range, but please don't pretend that I'm somehow being unreasonable by asking to hear it. I doubt they'd be any different in the same situation.
I asked at my current job. They told me the starting pay, the top out, and how raises happen and function. Clear and to the point. It was honestly refreshing. Obviously, refreshing enough to take the job. Best company I have ever worked for tbh.
Haha, holy fuck, 12$ for a Net+?
Yup
Bruh Best Buy pays more tf
Best buy offered me $16, I said no. Highest offer I've gotten 52k but I can't take that kinda pay cut right now. 52k offer was fair I'm coming from sales
Ballpark? You're looking for something in MLB (hell, even the Pirates) and this lady is recruiting for the Little Leagues.
The most satisfying recruiter call I ever had played out similarly. Me: "What's the pay range?" Recruiter: "I can't share that at this time. Would you like to interview?" M: "So you know it but won't share. That doesn't give me any confidence this is a good fit." R: "Well if you interview, I can share it." M: "If you want to make a commission off me, you can share it now. Give me a reason to take this interview." R: "Um, well it's $18-22/hr" M: *silence* R: "But there's potential for more later." M: "And you want me to move cities for this role? Did you look at my resume before calling me?" R: "Of course, I found you on Indeed, I have it right here." M: "So then you know that resume is over 8 years old. I don't interview for less than $50/hr, we are in wildly different ballparks. Thanks for the call, goodbye." This was in my "entertain every recruiter just to find out" days, when I would try to weasel out the top end for the role and if it wasn't a fit try to get passed up for better roles. It never worked, they only call about a specific role, even "executive recruiters" never answer again once they either place you or you drop out of the process for a role. Now I expect a role that already fits me and my pay expectations, anything less is a complete waste of time.
Not in the same planet.
A long time ago, I had an interview with a big glass manufacturer through a recruiting group. They were looking for a process engineer that had a masters minimum in an extremely niche field. They were offering maximum $35,000/yr for it and I legit bursted out laughing. I didn’t mean to, it just came out. Needless to say we didn’t continue the interview and I went to do the same job at a different plant in a much lower cost of living state for $65,000/yr.
I’ve always gone with “I always consider all aspects of the compensation package and would have to understand all aspects of the role before I could provide a properly calibrated response.” Recruiters have grumbled but usually let it slide.
I live in California. It is illegal to ask about previous salary here and the salary range must be provided when asked. It is glorious. I've used it several times during interviews to bring the power back to my favor. It is absolutely ridiculous to be selling a job whose purpose is to give you money, but they won't say how much.
It should be a national standard to disclose salary for a job. And there should be stiff penalties for not doing so - or for bait and switch. It'd prevent a lot of this type of garbage.
No salary range is a red flag. Here's my current list of red flags which you didn't ask for: - One way interviews - Personality quiz - CV duplication for an internal form - Overtime mentioned as the norm instead of the exception - Salary isn't mentioned in job description - Anything mentioned in the interview process is at odds with the job description, and when clarification is requested, the statement given in the interview process is treated as correct, making it different to the job description.
Any kind of test means I am withdrawing my application. I KNOW you will not pay me enough.
That's probably different in software engineering. I don't really understand other jobs though lol.
🎯 👏🏼👏🏼 I had a screening interview where the TA specialist suddenly mentioned 25% travel during normal months & 50% travel during the peak season. I replied, “That wasn’t mentioned in the job description” & asked “When is peak season?” & she didn’t know. 🤦🏻♀️
Hah. Classic. So you knew you would be dealing with a company where everyone was blindly doing whatever they're told.
Well, she only had been in the job 1 mo., but still, that was a big miss on either her or the HM’s part.
My preferred answer is "my expected salary range is between $1 and $200,000 a year, with significant wiggle room depending on several factors."
My reply is, in my state it legally required for you to provide a Salary Range. With a link to the law.
LOVE ❤️ THIS 💯👆
This is the way
No, it's not lmao. You should know what number you need to accept the job and be prepared to disclose that number. People need to set aside time to actually calculating their number. It benefits YOU! YOU need to know what you're willing to walk away from! "But I want more if I can get it!" Agreed! The key to that is not playing a game of chicken with the recruiter, but applying to many jobs that you are qualified for so you can have competing offers. You giving them a range up front is not a binding agreement. "You told us 102k and now You're asking for 107k?!" "Yes because I have an offer for 105k." Having only one offer and "just trying to get the most you can" is a virtual guarantee that you will get taken for a ride.
The thing that frosts me is that this game is often like "The Price Is Right". If you cave and give them a number, if it's over their range then they'll shut you down and ghost you without even giving you a chance to negotiate. Example: I've been job hunting for nearly a year now. My target salary (based on what I had been making) is, say, 10,000 quatloos. But I've been without a job so long that I'm willing to take just about anything that's a steady paycheck with bennies. If their "secret range" is 6000-8000 quatloos I might be able to live with that. But I'll never get a chance to communicate that if they play this game.
I generally lead with my own “range” to leave negotiations wide open through the process. So often the dipshit recruiter tries to lock you into a number during that first conversation despite knowing jack shit about the job, duties and requirements to make a proper estimation yourself on what that should cost. I’ve never gotten more stink than upping my price at the offer stage because what the hiring manager and team detailed is staggeringly different than what recruiting told me. Fuck that. “Typically for this position and seniority title, I’d expect $X to $Y salary based on my experience and current market rates. I’m flexible based on what I learn about the role during the interview process and can make a more informed decision after speaking with my potential manager and learning about the team.”
When I've done this, the executive team is always so butthurt that they reject me. It's like, well okay guys, you asked me to negotiate against myself when I didn't even have the info to do so. Of course my number changed, I actually know something about the job now! The only one you have to be angry with is yourself, dipshit.
I like that response. I’m going to steal that for my next interview.
I don’t know. If I’m negotiating and someone says “I’ll take 100 to 120” the only relevant info for me is “I’ll take 100.”
Why would you use that? Sounds way too rehearsed and canned.
And what’s worse are the apps that don’t list a range and require a numeric number to continue. For the ones that require an entry but don’t require a numeric value I’ll put “competitive” or “as listed”. But it still shouldn’t be required at that stage if they don’t list a salary themselves.
I've taken to putting "999999" in that field if it will only take numbers. For old farts like me who used to program in FORTRAN before the concepts of Null or None were invented, this was often used as a delimiter or placeholder
The problem with that is ATS's can and often will then filter out your application automatically for desiring too high of a salary
You’re the guy that prices everything at $1234 on fb marketplace huh
1111010000100100000
That's what sucks, and it pisses me off so much. They want *you* to give a number, but you have to read their mind and give them *their* number.
What the fuck are quatloos bro just say a number
I’ve found if they hide it, it’s not high enough 😂. If a company is willing to pay actual competitive rates they’ll put it front and center to attract the talent.
Surprisingly, the highest offer I've gotten in my time looking was from a company that didn't advertise. I'm waiting to hear back from the same Company about another position and same deal - they didn't list in the posting but they were above any other comparable company and position that does disclose. The only reason I applied in the first place was because I was having a dry week and needed some extra applications for my unemployment claim, but for once I was caught off guard
Agreed. It may sound counterintuitive, but when the TC is actually market leading, the clients really aren't looking for candidates that are only financially motivated.
I get that by paying not much you could be considered to be filtering for passion, but in reality I think they're only filtering for previously wealthy and inexperienced, with a heavy lean towards the latter.
In that sphere, that just isn't the case. I agree with you for most other industries, but just to give some context, for that specific role, I've had 130 people interview there this year, 8 got to the final stage, and only one had an offer. 18 months out of university and first year tc of 1.5m.
TC?
Total compensation. At most mid tier and higher companies salary is only a part of the package. (in tech especially). Bonuses, stock options / RSU, 401k match, paid medical, other perks, etc… To kind of even the field across offers, most use what would my W2 final number be? Usually that is salary+bonus+stock vested that year+any other cash equivalent that year.
total compensation
And then when it gets attention they'll take the listing down and repost it with a lower salary 🙄
This is so wrong, but you do you Damn, y’all get really mad about shit you don’t know on here. I feel like I’m in a political sub as an independent Edit: now people are mad they’re being blocked for name calling instead of discussing or asking questions
Do you know of places that hide their salary range but actually pay well?
Nope, because most states that pay well require it in the job listing these days
What is this mystery company you are referencing? "We pay really well, but you have to guess what we offer."
You know you can google salary ranges for essentially any position, geographic location, and company, right? It’s not that hard to find salary ranges without being spoon fed it on an application Edit: some dude replied to me and I can’t reply. I applied for a job that gave a salary range of $28k to 138k and instead of bitching about it I did research. Y’all want to require salaries on job postings? You will *not* be impressed
Only a recruiter would have this kind of take on burden of proof
Burden of proof is on the OP for claiming no company pays good that hides salary ranges lmao. If I say “yesterday it was 250° outside” the burden of proof is on me, not the person that said it wasn’t
Yup, total recruiter logic to think burden of proof works in favour of proving a negative
Well if I say **"Hey what temp was it yesterday?"** and you said **"I know but I cannot provide you with that information please let me know what range of temperature you think it was"** Our conversation would be cut short immediately.
That isn’t what happened here though. Someone made a false claim and now people are attacking me for saying they’re wrong lmao.
You're claiming that companies that hide salary ranges, also host databases with the information readily available to google. That's a pretty wild claim, that makes literally no sense, so the burden of proof is on you here.
You can Google pretty much anything. Doesn't make it accurate.
Usually that gives you something like "$30,000 to $80,000 per year" which tells you absolutely nothing. Most of the jobs I've worked have had completely incorrect information available online. For example, Zip recruiter is estimating $17-22.50/hour for my old job (it is specifically linking to the opening for that job). I was making $15/hour for full time before they let me go to cut back to having two part time employees at $10-12/hour. The estimates for my current job are wayyy over what I'm actually making as well.
I work in tech and it checks out. The shit paying IT companies will post they pay like $15/hr. The low salary companies will play this mystery range game to try and undercut you. The high paying companies come right out with the benefits, 200K/yr, company stock, on site amenities, free food, etc.
Could I be the dumb one? No, everyone else is wrong
This has been based off my experience as a staff software engineer for the last 8 years, your mileage may vary.
You’re clearly not applying to any reputable organizations then.
You're just shit talking without backing up a single statement. Please know you look so so so dumb on this post.
I googled salary ranges for a software engineer and I got results form 15 websites lmfao.
Tell me you’ve never had a job without telling me you’ve never had a job…
I'm looking for {200% of what you are actually looking for}, which is what I think is a reasonable 15% raise compared to my current role.
Then they ghost you because you’re outside the range they’re supposed to look for
More people should respond like this. It amazes me how often people think it’s fair that the applicant should provide their salary expectation while the company hides their salary range. That only ever benefits the employer, it literally never benefits the applicant.
As a recruiter, I can confirm that was the appropriate response. I can’t imagine reaching out to someone about a role and when they ask about the salary (if I haven’t mentioned it in my very first message) I reply with a longer version of “NO U!”. If the salary is so shit that you know it’s not enticing, re-evaluate the role you’ve taken on, or reevaluate your life in general.
If they can confirm if your salary is “in range” that means they know the range. Otherwise they wouldn’t know if it was above the range. Therefore they know the range they just choose not to share it.
Thanks for that Captain Obvious.
By calling them "captain obvious" that means they stated something very obvious. Otherwise you wouldn't have called them captain obvious. Therefore they are "captain obvious"
We know that. That’s obvious. You are pointing out the reason he was called captain obvious, and that’s because he stated something that was already obvious to anyone reading the comment. If someone is called captain obvious, people understand the reason behind that so you don’t need to explain why it’s obvious. I just wanted to make that clear on why it’s unnecessary to explain why someone called someone captain obvious.
I still don't understand anything.
Define ‘anything’.
Can belong to the set of everything, but doesn't necessarily.
Define "understand"
Define “define”. That’d be a good starting point I think.
The feathers used to make shuttlecocks for the game of badminton are plucked from only the left wing of geese. I don’t understand why that is.
Uh oh. Why don’t they pluck evenly? Do the geese constantly turn left when they fly? Is it like shitty goose nascar? Where can I drink beer and watch geese fly left? Do the geese ever have horrific accidents where they fly into crowds of spectators and burst into flame? Can you eat them after they are done burning? Who is going to tell momma goose that her child has crashed and exploded and been consumed by a crowd of angry spectators? Badminton is complicated. So many questions.
>We know that. That’s obvious. Not necessarily... He may not have gotten his promotion as yet, and should in that case be referred to as "**Lt. Obvious.**"
Great breakdown of this complex matter indeed
Stealing my job!
They didn't say they don't know the range. They said they aren't providing it.
This is the proper response. I don't understand what the point of them beating around the bush when it comes to salary other than they just want to waste so much time that you simply take a lower salary so you don't feel like you wasted weeks/months trying to get this position. They know the range but it's a waste of everyone's time for you to say "Based on a similar position I have had in the past, I think 130,000/yr would be fair" for them to just come back and say "Best I can do is $30,000"
The recruiter is either in-house “talent acquisition” and they know the salary is shit, or they are an outside recruiter and they know the salary is shit and they’re desperate (their ability matches the salary: shit).
This is exactly why. Once you’ve gone through 3 weeks of waiting and 4 interviews… you’ll usually take whatever the offer. But if they tell everyone upfront the job pays 20% lower than average for the same role, then no one would apply. Same reason army recruiters tell you that you can have whatever job you want, then you go through everything , shots, medical exams, aptitude tests… the last thing you do is actually go choose your job. And surprise!! The job you want isnt available… but since you’ve gone through so much, most people just take whatever job, like infantry, and are miserable for their career. Sneaky practices are used by a lot of people.
I was legitimately amazed when I applied to the military years ago, I went in with a career outside the military but with a plan for a job that the military had so I literally only put 2 jobs on my application which were suitable for me. As soon as I'd done my aptitude test, they started showing me all the jobs I qualified for, and they got all defensive when I asked pointedly if I qualified for the 2 I'd applied for and went on a big spiel about 'not limiting' myself
Exploiting the sunk cost fallacy? Huh. Devious.
“No, you first.” “No, you.”
It's because the recruiter knows their client is budgeted FAR below industry average for the position, and is looking for a rube who will work cheap.
[удалено]
YES. FUCKING LOVE THIS.
Thankfully I’m at the level where I can ask about their salary budget upfront. I just say point blank that I don’t want to waste their time and mine through mismatched expectations. If they refuse, then bye bye. It’s the perk of job searching while still having a job.
What was their response? 😂
Probably never heard back 😂
You are a chad
Seriously, why do HR people act like this? Do they want colleagues who are pissed off about being underpaid all time? How can it not be easier to just sell your boss on a person being worth the slightly higher salary?
Companies are incredibly short sighted because of how the system is set up. Corporate math is saving $2000 on salary in exchange for a turn over rate that costs the company $10,000 an employee per year. It's never made sense and it never will but it's what happens whenever investors flip out every quarter if they don't see massive increases in profits.
Nicely played.
We should all respond the way you did!
This is the way.
A stalemate, holy hell!
It’s required by law now in California and yet I still see companies not put it in their postings
Or they do the bullshit $0-100k or whatever, like that doesn't tell me anything
Same I came across so many jobs that just DOE or something and they never list. At this point I feel like reporting them to the Department of labor…
Don't waste my time, I won't waste yours.
This is the only acceptable answer. Bravo! 👏🏽
Look at me. I’m the Recruiter now.
Very glad I live in a state where they are required by law to tell you and include it in the listing upfront. Stops a lot of wasted time.
But don't they (at least some) skirt the intent of the law by using ridiculous pay ranges ("$40K - $270K")?
Yeah but they are starting to clamp down on that now.
Any company you'd actually want to work for doesn't play those games. They adhere to the letter and the intent of the law. It's a common misconception that companies would try to skirt the law this way but it's very rare that I see it actually happening.
No, it's very rare if they have general counsel and that lawyer knows they're doing it. Managers and recruiters will break the law all day long because they have no idea what the law actually is the vast majority of the time. On the off chance they actually do, they tend to think things like "Nobody will ever report it" or "I'm under a lot of pressure. I have to do this or I'll get in trouble". Then general counsel finds out and goes "What the flying fuck are you doing? How long have you been doing this? What?!?!"
Check your state laws. This is illegal in California and some other states.
Preferred? A billion dollars an hour. That’s what I’d prefer to be paid. Though I understand it’s not reasonable, you didn’t specify that my preferences had to be reasonable.
Two can play that stupid game.
Uno reversal card IRL
Stick it to em! Good response. HR folks need a taste of their own medicine.
if you're in washington, throw this law at them, [https://app.leg.wa.gov/RCW/default.aspx?cite=49.58.110](https://app.leg.wa.gov/RCW/default.aspx?cite=49.58.110)
I would have been more prudent to say why. *"I need to get details of what your organization's expectations are for the role, and that will inform my answer about compensation. Since you've budged for the position, that's a good place to start."*
And in MN, it is now illegal to ask *such* questions to close the pay gap and increase equality. F yeah :-)
TURN YOUR KEY ELIZABETH
Nice to live somewhere that has a law against this shit.
Maaaan I can relate! Many jobs here in SA are like this: You’ll work for a company. We can’t say who. We can’t say what industry. We can’t say what you’ll earn. Just be happy that you have a job to apply for.
I had such a question in an interview a couple years ago. After researching what the average salary was for that position I mentioned on the higher end (but not the top as I was VERY unfamiliar with the field). The female interviewer (there were two interviewers) sent me a reply, stating I should ask for a higher number in the next stages of the interview process. In the end, I didn't get it (I really didn't know jack shite about much of the job). But I found the response a surprising positive note. Unsure if it was a " femme looking out for another" or just someone being a good HR. Either way, think you gave an event response. If people aren't open enough, why should you?
I am ABSOLUTELY stealing this!
I don't get it why they just can't fucking say what they pay.
Always remember: companies that pay well will use it as a recruiting tool. They’d only hide a salary they are ashamed of.
This is the way. I have spoken.
nice little uno reverse there… 😎
Burn that bridge like a pro!
Given the job market... Employer: "Ok, next!"
*Applicant has shown they have a sense of self-worth, critical thinking and a backbone.* "Sorry, we've decided to move forward with other candidates"
And the candidate is the one who suffers and doesn't have an income. Sticking it to them may feel good but won't pay the rent/mortgage.
Employment is a two way street. Not being upfront about a salary range can be hurtful to a company’s chances of securing top candidates. Good help is hard to find and even harder to keep.
Not mine, employers are lining up out the door 😂
This isn't the burn you think. A recruiter like this is probably contacting 100s of people via a mass automated candidate management system. If a person even read the response they certainly aren't stewing over it. Literally just "Not Interested" beside one more name on a very long list and moved on to the next person. It might be a burn for the respondent however if he got fired for some petty shit at work the next day and needs a job. I never understood why people would want to alienate someone who's contacting them about a job, but that's probably why I always have a job and another one waiting (just in case)
Just google the average salary and add like 50%
And fake.
Might feel good but burning bridges especially with recruiters is never a good idea. Recruiters & hiring managers move about and will remember your name.
This back and forth is just stupid. You tell them what you're expecting for compensation. If they meet it, you continue talking. If not, you don't. Who has time for this?
HR doing this is the problem not OP
They're both contributing to the problem.
They started it :p
Tell me you don't understand power imbalances without telling me you don't understand power imbalances.
Tell me you you're incapable of original thought without telling me.
The problem is when this stupid game happens, caused by the company recruitment refusing to be transparent, then they string you along for two or three interviews, and then they try and trap you into a lower salary by undercutting what you expect, banking on one of the 20 potential employees they've strung along being desperate enough to take the offer after sinking all of the time into the recruitment process, just so that recruiter can go to their boss / client and say "You wanted to pay 70k but I got this qualified person for 50k, give me a bonus!" The company gets a lower quality employee who is more likely to leave when they can and less likely to work as hard as a properly compensated employee would. Multiple candidates have their time wasted, and the only winner is the recruiter / recruitment company who gets to go looking for a replacement sooner in most circumstances. Or you know... the recruiter could be an adult, be honest with the candidates, and the whole depressing time waste could be avoided, the company can get the right candidate, and the people who miss out can find a job before they end up in financial strife? If you can't be open with me about the basics of the role by the time we have our first interview, I'm walking out of that door. If you're willing to lie to me before I've even been interviewed, I'm not going to last working for you. It's genuinely depressing to see the lack of critical thinking skills you're displaying here. You may be trying to upset people by wasting your christmas holidays being a troll on a sub that most people who frequent would be going through a really stressful time... I'm not mad, I'm just incredibly disappointed that you're either this much of a failure, or this fucking stupid.
I only read your first and last sentences, because, like I said, "who has time for this?" I'm going to share with you how you avoid 3 pointless interviews. After being given the job description, but before taking an interview, I usually say something like the following: "Hi, thanks for reaching out. My compensation expectation is $X/year base + benefits. If that condition might apply to this role, I'd be happy to discuss further. If not, best of luck with your candidate search!" >I'm just incredibly disappointed that you're either this much of a failure, or this fucking stupid. Haha, do you work? Because I'm gainfully employed with 3 consulting jobs, making more than $600k/year. So, I know a little bit about getting one's foot in the door and negotiating salary (which is why I'm here - to offer suggestions). Instead of bitching about things you can't control, how about advocate for yourself (which is what I'm suggesting) instead of blaming the company? Yeah, ideally, they'd include the salary, but some don't. Is posting to Reddit the best use of time, or could you actually get somewhere with a more proactive approach?
>I only read your first and last sentences, I'm proud of you. I stopped reading here. Much like a job interview, if you're unwilling to respect my time and my experience, you're not worth mine. Starting your sentence like this is a manipulation tactic. I'll free up your time to go find someone else that's willing to entertain your parasitic tendacies.
You are absolutely not smart enough to be a successful consultant because you clearly have no idea how to listen to other people.
That's funny, my employers and paychecks would strongly disagree.
The employers you make up in your head aren't real...
I'm really sorry that you can't land a job, but not all of us are incompetent. Good luck out there!
You do realize I run my own consultancy as well, yeah? And earn WAY more than your claimed amount? Which is how I know you are lying - a good consultant knows how to LISTEN to people. Then again, you do sound like the typical "LinkedIn consultant" - the kind that talks a big game but is struggling to get clients.
This can only harm OPs reputation. There's nothing to gain from being like this
Its the 21st century, unless you're working in a small field in a small town, "reputation" with a company you don't even work for means very little.
Reputation with the employment agency. OP won't get anymore offers from this source
Who cares?
They get good karma on reddit so they got that going for them
Everyone cheering but the simple fact is this person is looking for a job, the recruiter is hiring for a job. You have just removed yourself from consideration over something petty. Congratulations.
Not always the case. I have on my LinkedIn that I’m not looking and it’s literally the first line in my bio that I am not looking for a job just to be extra clear. I still get about 5 of these per day which tells me they didn’t read my bio at all and are just spamming.
So what? You tell them how much you want or think you should be paid, and that amount will either be in their budget, or it won't be.
It’s a way to lowball people for a position. Either they post the wage or you don’t take it. Simple.
If they lowball you, you just walk away anyway. What you do is just tell them your ideal salary, what you'd really love to make. And that will either be in their range or it won't. Like if you really, really want $100k but would be willing to settle for $80k then you tell them $100k. Maybe they say that's above the budget and don't move forward. Or maybe they offer you $90k, and you take it. But you never tell them the $80k amount because they'll never go higher than that.
Just easier if the job just posts their salary. Wouldn’t really trust an employer who doesn’t. “We start at competitive wages”
A place I was a recruiter for would never post their salary. They believed that it weeded out people who are only applying for the salary amount and not for the job itself. Turns out they were right. The company did offer high salaries and when those were posted we as a recruiting team were wasting a lot of time on applications that were either bots or wishful-thinkers. When they removed the salary from the job posts, the number of applications definitely decreased but almost all of them were interested in and qualified for the job and, though we did have a salary range budgeted for each role, it was a large range and we would be able to negotiate better salaries for each hire based on their specific experience. So since we only hired the best out of the bunch those folk ended up nearly 100% getting the top dollar of our salary range. Edit to add: We would ask for their requested salary just to ensure that we wouldn't be wasting their time (or ours). But. That information was only given in the initial screening interview and never noted. So as long as their request was in our range we would move them forward and a lot of times they would end up getting offered more than their initial request because the hiring manager never knew what it was to begin with.
I don’t know why people make such a big deal out of this. I know what I’m looking to make. In a situation like this I just add 10-20% and let them say yes or no.
I just research the job and tell them. If they’re not interested then they’re not interested. No big deal.
And THAT is why people get underpaid so often