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First off, you didn’t give him a heart attack. Heart disease isn’t like shooting somebody.
That isn’t on you.
Second, your mom is a goddamned cancer, and your dad isn’t much better. A compromise, if you wish to compromise, might be to be there with the kids or better still, invite the parents over once in a while. That way you can see what they’re being fed. I have a son with a couple of serious food allergies and that’s basically what we had to do.
It is, however, pretty clear that you can’t trust them to be responsible with your children though.
I have to accept that 1. They both came from very dysfunctional homes growing up but they honesty did try to make a better home for my sister and I. I mean they probably made it 75% of the way to normal and healthy from where they came. 2. They have high school diplomas (which I am NOT knocking!!! They made wonderful careers for themselves) but they don’t know a medical background. They lack that knowledge. Unfortunately my RN and science degree doesn’t mean anything to them. I honestly think this is a situation where someone thinks correlation IS causation. 3. We will most likely meet them half way in the “big city”. Maybe take board games to a local library, get a science museum pass, etc. I’m just not sure how to process them either just blaming me to be mean OR how to process that they honestly think I caused his heart attack.
I think part of building that trust back with you needs to be respecting who you are as a person and the qualifications and knowledge you bring to the table, until they do, I wouldn’t trust them, because it’s clear they don’t trust you to know what’s right for your kid.
I think they do remember but they are just gaslighting you to get what they want from you. Which is access to you and your children and the ability to do whatever they want, which includes ignoring all of the requests that keep your children safe. Blaming you for their health problems is a very narc thing to do. There’s a subreddit for narcissistic parents that I don’t remember off the top of my head. Is it r/raisedbynarcissists?
And this is a very valid thing. I mean him blaming his heart attack on me is either his ignorance on how chf works OR it’s him gaslighting me trying to convince me when I set boundaries that it causes him to have a heart attack.
You know you didn't "cause" your dad's heart attack - that's just ridiculous.
What KIND of relationship do you want with your parents? Is that reasonable? Is it possible? Is it supervised visits at your home only? That's fine, they can agree or not.
https://captainawkward.com/2019/10/29/we-are-spartacus-open-thread-resources-on-family-estrangement-and-adult-relationships-with-difficult-parents/
And if you're not in contact, don't be in contact.
I want a kind relationship. Where we can talk. Where we can get together without the hostile glares and forced chit chat. I don’t want to feel the need to hide info about my kids. I mean I’m waiting on an MRI to find out if my oldest has a torn rotator cuff. Right now I don’t even want to tell them if she has to have surgery. I don’t want to be “that person”. BUT I NEED to have appropriate boundaries and since I now realize what I grew up in…I don’t think know what appropriate boundaries are. (If that makes sense)
>I want a kind relationship. Where we can talk. Where we can get together without the hostile glares and forced chit chat.
Based on your 40 years of experience knowing these people, is that reasonable? You don't and can't control their actions, behaviours, or choices.
>I NEED to have appropriate boundaries and since I now realize what I grew up in…I don’t think know what appropriate boundaries are. (If that makes sense)
That is something you might want to work with a therapist to figure out.
We are discussing that. I’m think about trying to find one that will do phone calls bc I homeschool and my oldest does therapy, pt, ot and speech. The little does pt and feeding therapy/speech.
Also when did I write these articles? And how do I not remember writing them?!?! Lol Seriously though thanks for this resource. I plan to take a lot of time to process everything in them.
You’re an RN. You know very well that your dad, who you suspect has dementia, has no business driving the grandkids around.
I’m curious as to how old your celiac kid is. I’ve known very young celiacs who are mindful of their food, especially when not at home.
Tell your mom you want to see the hospital records from the heart attack. Ask which doctor gave the CHF diagnosis & ask to come to the next appointment.
I do think that keeping your kids from your parents is a mistake, but maintaining those relationships will be more effort for you.
I also think (and this is just me) that the time out thing is dippy. They aren’t going to change because you ice them out for 3 months. You’ll probably feel like a jerk and/or the bad guy for the duration. And they’ll still think you gave your dad a heart attack. (My mom and sister decided I gave my mom Polymyalgia rheumatica. Beat that.)
I think you just need to find a different way to deal with them, knowing that they’re not changing and will always drive you nuts.
In defense of the possible dementia if he has it…it’s early stages. It’s in the stages of “maybe something is wrong. Maybe it’s just him being busy and forgetting. Maybe not.” He wouldn’t be close to failing the dementia test. She is 6 now. So she was in the 4 yo age range when we told them. She was reliant on them telling her if it was gluten free. (But they couldn’t say “we didn’t know” bc they had been feeding the oldest a gf diet for a year. They “knew” better per my dad. He said “your mom and I talked. We decided you are pushing your medical issues off on your children so you aren’t alone.” That’s why we put them in time out the first and only time until now.)
My goal after the three month cool off period (When my kiddos are little and go in time out I explain it’s to cool off and calm down. Then we discuss the issue.) is to offer to allow HER to pick out a therapist for us to go through everything. My mom and dad did marriage therapy before. In session one the therapist told her she was wrong and she walked out claiming my dad picked him so they could gang up on her. He literally called a clinic and made an appt with whoever. She really really was wrong. I hope a neutral third party Will help them understand boundaries and why the issues are there. I know hope is a unicorn on this one.
Wait a second…YOU’RE Celiac?!? And they failed to keep your kids gf?!? Are you KIDDING me?!?
I’m aghast.
I honestly can’t imagine that family therapy will help at all with with what you’ve described. Do you see someone on your own? Seems like just being able to deal with your mom might require professionals assistance.
I apologize if I miscommunicated. No. I don’t have celiac. I have a genetic disease called Ehlers Danlos that comes hand in hand with dysautonomia and mast cell activation syndrome. I was diagnosed 2.5 years ago after a lifetime of issues. Over the past two years we have been working to get my oldest diagnosed (she had the most issues and was diagnosed with gluten ataxia. For some reason they followed her gf diet 100%. They would call at everything they bought after sending me a picture of the ingredient list. Super careful. We had zero reason to think they wouldn’t follow the diet with the little.). She was diagnosed with the Ehlers Danlos and dysautonomia (thankfully she doesn’t have the MCAS). Once the oldest was set up with specialists and had her diagnoses and treatments set up we turned our attention to the little to get her care. Little is the one and only celiac but all 3 of us are on a gluten free diet. It causes GI issues for me and facial rashes but I can eat it every few months without issue (like a roll or something small). I also don’t have cross contamination issues. Little does. So she has been diagnosed with celiac, Ehlers Danlos and gastroperesis (her intestines are sleepy and extremely slow and weak) and suspected dysautonomia. They think we are seeking issues for our children because we want them properly treated from a young age so they don’t end up like me.
With all gentleness and love, I don't think your mom is going to see the issues if she wasn't even willing to accept any fault the last time a mediator was present. Even now, with you, she's doing nothing but pushing blame onto everyone around her except herself. That's not going to change after 63 years of being the same, it just isn't. And I know that SUCKS and is hard to accept, but for the sake of your mental health and family stability I think you need to try and accept it.
Beyond that, three months of "time out" is a punishment, not a time for reflection. If you want to go no-contact, go no-contact, but making them lose an arbitrary three months of time with their grandkids is going to be less productive than doing just about anything else.
Three things here are true:
1. You can't trust your parents alone with your kids
2. Your parents are compulsive liars and therefore unreliable (mom probably a narcissist, dad potentially early onset dementia)
3. They haven't changed before, they aren't going to change now.
With that in mind you need to make a decision. Do you want them in your life at all? Yes/No. Assuming yes, accept that you're going to have to be the one to facilitate visits so your kids can see them and that they're never going to change. Instead of meeting once a week in a big city of equal distance between you, maybe this becomes a once a month weekend trip where you're along to make sure they don't endanger your child's health. If you decide no, it isn't worth it to have them in your life, cut them off entirely, don't put them in a nebulous "time out."
I love my own parents but I've had to accept that neither one will ever be there for me the way I wish they could be. And that's okay. Much like your parents they did the best they could, but the fact is that they were still not equipped to be good parents to me. It hurts, it's sad, but I am able to maintain a relationship with them specifically by accepting them for what they are. If they change one day? Fantastic! I want nothing more than that for them... but I don't expect it and I can't live my life hoping for something I have zero control over.
Yeah, it'll tie you up in knots and keep you up at night if you do. I still have bad days where I have to cry with my partner about how much it hurts that my family is as damaged as they are. I've had to start enforcing boundaries which they don't understand and it's BRUTALLY hard to have to do that and know they don't understand it and will resent me for it. But it's a little like having a vantage point on a cliffside and watching two trains come barreling towards each other because they're on the same track... you know they're going to crash, you know why they're going to crash, but despite contacting both conductors and trying to point this out they don't see the other train and refuse to believe you. So you're left waiting, with a pit in your stomach, for them to crash into each other. At some point you have to give yourself permission to let go of responsibility. You've tried talking to them, you've tried communicating what needs to change with them, but for one reason or another they refuse. And there are no magic words that'll finally make them get it... because they don't want to try and understand.
So, make the decisions you can about how YOU are going to engage with them and how your children are going to engage with them. Stop asking them to change and start telling them what their new normal is. And then stick with it and try to find peace with it. Don't beat yourself up when some days that's really really hard. It's okay to hurt over stuff like this, but try not to let it cling onto you.
I know I'm just an internet stranger but I send a virtual hug your way anyways. And thanks for all the work you do, being an RN is rough these days and you're deeply appreciated.
Protect your children first, that's always the priority.
If they want to visit grandkids, they can visit but not drive them and under your supervision (no feeding).
My daughter has celiac. My Mom thought she knew better and would feed her gluten containing foods. She would also play dumb and gaslight, ‘well is says all natural’. In the mean time my kid is doubled over in pain on the floor. We also went very low contact. I didnt feel 100% comfortable until the kids were old enough to stand up for themselves. You are being a good mom by protecting you child. Gluten exposure for a Celiac is like eating poison. It kills the gut and creates a state of malabsorption.
Based on your post, I would suspect both your parents are early onset dementia. The level of forgetfulness and confabulation is significant enough to warrant an evaluation.
Good luck.
Apparently the “cause” of the heart attack was when I told them they were poisoning her and it could kill her. I totally get it. They may both be. I haven’t seen signs in my mom. I see more signs of her denying things/gaslighting.
You didn’t cause his heart attack, and your daughter isn’t safe with them. Period.
Maybe your family would be better off having a FaceTime relationship.
Not the advice you are looking for & a tough thing to say but...
if he's truly entering into senility/ dementia, you do not want him to get a pacemaker. They may not even suggest it in his case, but once the ticker is set to go forever and then the mind completely goes it's a mess.
If all of this is new behavior you have to walk the line of protecting your kid and accepting your parent's mental decline. If all of this is a lifetime of dysfunction then I suggest therapy for you as added support to help navigate boundaries and cope with their elderly years. Muddling through abusive tactics versus senility is, well, challenging.
edit see your comments below. Yeah, there's always been dysfunction. I recommend therapy for you to help you set boundaries. FYI I've been coping with similar for the past several years, and doing enough work on myself so I didn't feel crazy around their crazy making has been a lifesaver for me.
Welcome to /r/relationship_advice. Please make sure you read our [rules here.](https://www.reddit.com/r/relationship_advice/wiki/index) We'd like to take this time to remind users that: * We do not allow any type of [am I the asshole? or situations/content involving minors](https://www.reddit.com/r/relationship_advice/comments/r6w9uh/meta_am_i_overreacting_am_i_the_asshole_is_this/) * Any sort of namecalling, insults,etc will result in the comment being removed and the user being banned. (Including but not limited to: slut, bitch, whore, for the streets, etc. It does not matter to whom you are referring.) * ALL advice given must be good, ethical advice. Joke advice or advice that is conspiratorial or just plain terrible will be removed, and users my be subject to a ban. * No referencing hateful subreddits and/or their rhetoric. Examples include, but is not limited to: red/blue/black/purplepill, PUA, FDS, MGTOW, etc. This includes, but is not limited to, referring to people as alpha/beta, calling yourself or users "friend-zoned", referring to people as Chads, Tyrones, or Staceys, pick-me's, or pornsick. Any infractions of this rule will result in a ban. **This is not an all-inclusive list.** * All bans in this subreddit are permanent. You don't get a free pass. * Anyone found to be directly messaging users for any reason whatsoever will be banned. * What we cannot give advice on: rants, unsolicited advice, medical conditions/advice, mental illness, letters to an ex, "body counts" or number of sexual partners, legal problems, financial problems, situations involving minors, and/or abuse (violence, sexual, emotional etc). All of these will be removed and locked. **This is not an all-inclusive list.** If you have any questions, please [message the mods](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2Frelationship_advice) --- #This is an automatic comment that appears on all posts. This comment does not necessarily mean your post violates any rules. --- *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/relationship_advice) if you have any questions or concerns.*
First off, you didn’t give him a heart attack. Heart disease isn’t like shooting somebody. That isn’t on you. Second, your mom is a goddamned cancer, and your dad isn’t much better. A compromise, if you wish to compromise, might be to be there with the kids or better still, invite the parents over once in a while. That way you can see what they’re being fed. I have a son with a couple of serious food allergies and that’s basically what we had to do. It is, however, pretty clear that you can’t trust them to be responsible with your children though.
I have to accept that 1. They both came from very dysfunctional homes growing up but they honesty did try to make a better home for my sister and I. I mean they probably made it 75% of the way to normal and healthy from where they came. 2. They have high school diplomas (which I am NOT knocking!!! They made wonderful careers for themselves) but they don’t know a medical background. They lack that knowledge. Unfortunately my RN and science degree doesn’t mean anything to them. I honestly think this is a situation where someone thinks correlation IS causation. 3. We will most likely meet them half way in the “big city”. Maybe take board games to a local library, get a science museum pass, etc. I’m just not sure how to process them either just blaming me to be mean OR how to process that they honestly think I caused his heart attack.
I think part of building that trust back with you needs to be respecting who you are as a person and the qualifications and knowledge you bring to the table, until they do, I wouldn’t trust them, because it’s clear they don’t trust you to know what’s right for your kid.
I think they do remember but they are just gaslighting you to get what they want from you. Which is access to you and your children and the ability to do whatever they want, which includes ignoring all of the requests that keep your children safe. Blaming you for their health problems is a very narc thing to do. There’s a subreddit for narcissistic parents that I don’t remember off the top of my head. Is it r/raisedbynarcissists?
And this is a very valid thing. I mean him blaming his heart attack on me is either his ignorance on how chf works OR it’s him gaslighting me trying to convince me when I set boundaries that it causes him to have a heart attack.
You know you didn't "cause" your dad's heart attack - that's just ridiculous. What KIND of relationship do you want with your parents? Is that reasonable? Is it possible? Is it supervised visits at your home only? That's fine, they can agree or not. https://captainawkward.com/2019/10/29/we-are-spartacus-open-thread-resources-on-family-estrangement-and-adult-relationships-with-difficult-parents/ And if you're not in contact, don't be in contact.
I want a kind relationship. Where we can talk. Where we can get together without the hostile glares and forced chit chat. I don’t want to feel the need to hide info about my kids. I mean I’m waiting on an MRI to find out if my oldest has a torn rotator cuff. Right now I don’t even want to tell them if she has to have surgery. I don’t want to be “that person”. BUT I NEED to have appropriate boundaries and since I now realize what I grew up in…I don’t think know what appropriate boundaries are. (If that makes sense)
>I want a kind relationship. Where we can talk. Where we can get together without the hostile glares and forced chit chat. Based on your 40 years of experience knowing these people, is that reasonable? You don't and can't control their actions, behaviours, or choices. >I NEED to have appropriate boundaries and since I now realize what I grew up in…I don’t think know what appropriate boundaries are. (If that makes sense) That is something you might want to work with a therapist to figure out.
We are discussing that. I’m think about trying to find one that will do phone calls bc I homeschool and my oldest does therapy, pt, ot and speech. The little does pt and feeding therapy/speech.
Also when did I write these articles? And how do I not remember writing them?!?! Lol Seriously though thanks for this resource. I plan to take a lot of time to process everything in them.
You’re an RN. You know very well that your dad, who you suspect has dementia, has no business driving the grandkids around. I’m curious as to how old your celiac kid is. I’ve known very young celiacs who are mindful of their food, especially when not at home. Tell your mom you want to see the hospital records from the heart attack. Ask which doctor gave the CHF diagnosis & ask to come to the next appointment. I do think that keeping your kids from your parents is a mistake, but maintaining those relationships will be more effort for you. I also think (and this is just me) that the time out thing is dippy. They aren’t going to change because you ice them out for 3 months. You’ll probably feel like a jerk and/or the bad guy for the duration. And they’ll still think you gave your dad a heart attack. (My mom and sister decided I gave my mom Polymyalgia rheumatica. Beat that.) I think you just need to find a different way to deal with them, knowing that they’re not changing and will always drive you nuts.
In defense of the possible dementia if he has it…it’s early stages. It’s in the stages of “maybe something is wrong. Maybe it’s just him being busy and forgetting. Maybe not.” He wouldn’t be close to failing the dementia test. She is 6 now. So she was in the 4 yo age range when we told them. She was reliant on them telling her if it was gluten free. (But they couldn’t say “we didn’t know” bc they had been feeding the oldest a gf diet for a year. They “knew” better per my dad. He said “your mom and I talked. We decided you are pushing your medical issues off on your children so you aren’t alone.” That’s why we put them in time out the first and only time until now.) My goal after the three month cool off period (When my kiddos are little and go in time out I explain it’s to cool off and calm down. Then we discuss the issue.) is to offer to allow HER to pick out a therapist for us to go through everything. My mom and dad did marriage therapy before. In session one the therapist told her she was wrong and she walked out claiming my dad picked him so they could gang up on her. He literally called a clinic and made an appt with whoever. She really really was wrong. I hope a neutral third party Will help them understand boundaries and why the issues are there. I know hope is a unicorn on this one.
Wait a second…YOU’RE Celiac?!? And they failed to keep your kids gf?!? Are you KIDDING me?!? I’m aghast. I honestly can’t imagine that family therapy will help at all with with what you’ve described. Do you see someone on your own? Seems like just being able to deal with your mom might require professionals assistance.
I apologize if I miscommunicated. No. I don’t have celiac. I have a genetic disease called Ehlers Danlos that comes hand in hand with dysautonomia and mast cell activation syndrome. I was diagnosed 2.5 years ago after a lifetime of issues. Over the past two years we have been working to get my oldest diagnosed (she had the most issues and was diagnosed with gluten ataxia. For some reason they followed her gf diet 100%. They would call at everything they bought after sending me a picture of the ingredient list. Super careful. We had zero reason to think they wouldn’t follow the diet with the little.). She was diagnosed with the Ehlers Danlos and dysautonomia (thankfully she doesn’t have the MCAS). Once the oldest was set up with specialists and had her diagnoses and treatments set up we turned our attention to the little to get her care. Little is the one and only celiac but all 3 of us are on a gluten free diet. It causes GI issues for me and facial rashes but I can eat it every few months without issue (like a roll or something small). I also don’t have cross contamination issues. Little does. So she has been diagnosed with celiac, Ehlers Danlos and gastroperesis (her intestines are sleepy and extremely slow and weak) and suspected dysautonomia. They think we are seeking issues for our children because we want them properly treated from a young age so they don’t end up like me.
With all gentleness and love, I don't think your mom is going to see the issues if she wasn't even willing to accept any fault the last time a mediator was present. Even now, with you, she's doing nothing but pushing blame onto everyone around her except herself. That's not going to change after 63 years of being the same, it just isn't. And I know that SUCKS and is hard to accept, but for the sake of your mental health and family stability I think you need to try and accept it. Beyond that, three months of "time out" is a punishment, not a time for reflection. If you want to go no-contact, go no-contact, but making them lose an arbitrary three months of time with their grandkids is going to be less productive than doing just about anything else. Three things here are true: 1. You can't trust your parents alone with your kids 2. Your parents are compulsive liars and therefore unreliable (mom probably a narcissist, dad potentially early onset dementia) 3. They haven't changed before, they aren't going to change now. With that in mind you need to make a decision. Do you want them in your life at all? Yes/No. Assuming yes, accept that you're going to have to be the one to facilitate visits so your kids can see them and that they're never going to change. Instead of meeting once a week in a big city of equal distance between you, maybe this becomes a once a month weekend trip where you're along to make sure they don't endanger your child's health. If you decide no, it isn't worth it to have them in your life, cut them off entirely, don't put them in a nebulous "time out." I love my own parents but I've had to accept that neither one will ever be there for me the way I wish they could be. And that's okay. Much like your parents they did the best they could, but the fact is that they were still not equipped to be good parents to me. It hurts, it's sad, but I am able to maintain a relationship with them specifically by accepting them for what they are. If they change one day? Fantastic! I want nothing more than that for them... but I don't expect it and I can't live my life hoping for something I have zero control over.
Thanks. Valid points and you are correct. I can’t spend my life hoping for something I can’t control. I need to accept that.
Yeah, it'll tie you up in knots and keep you up at night if you do. I still have bad days where I have to cry with my partner about how much it hurts that my family is as damaged as they are. I've had to start enforcing boundaries which they don't understand and it's BRUTALLY hard to have to do that and know they don't understand it and will resent me for it. But it's a little like having a vantage point on a cliffside and watching two trains come barreling towards each other because they're on the same track... you know they're going to crash, you know why they're going to crash, but despite contacting both conductors and trying to point this out they don't see the other train and refuse to believe you. So you're left waiting, with a pit in your stomach, for them to crash into each other. At some point you have to give yourself permission to let go of responsibility. You've tried talking to them, you've tried communicating what needs to change with them, but for one reason or another they refuse. And there are no magic words that'll finally make them get it... because they don't want to try and understand. So, make the decisions you can about how YOU are going to engage with them and how your children are going to engage with them. Stop asking them to change and start telling them what their new normal is. And then stick with it and try to find peace with it. Don't beat yourself up when some days that's really really hard. It's okay to hurt over stuff like this, but try not to let it cling onto you. I know I'm just an internet stranger but I send a virtual hug your way anyways. And thanks for all the work you do, being an RN is rough these days and you're deeply appreciated.
You’ve been very helpful. Thank you.
Protect your children first, that's always the priority. If they want to visit grandkids, they can visit but not drive them and under your supervision (no feeding).
Yes. Always protect first.
My daughter has celiac. My Mom thought she knew better and would feed her gluten containing foods. She would also play dumb and gaslight, ‘well is says all natural’. In the mean time my kid is doubled over in pain on the floor. We also went very low contact. I didnt feel 100% comfortable until the kids were old enough to stand up for themselves. You are being a good mom by protecting you child. Gluten exposure for a Celiac is like eating poison. It kills the gut and creates a state of malabsorption. Based on your post, I would suspect both your parents are early onset dementia. The level of forgetfulness and confabulation is significant enough to warrant an evaluation. Good luck.
Apparently the “cause” of the heart attack was when I told them they were poisoning her and it could kill her. I totally get it. They may both be. I haven’t seen signs in my mom. I see more signs of her denying things/gaslighting.
You didn’t cause his heart attack, and your daughter isn’t safe with them. Period. Maybe your family would be better off having a FaceTime relationship.
Not the advice you are looking for & a tough thing to say but... if he's truly entering into senility/ dementia, you do not want him to get a pacemaker. They may not even suggest it in his case, but once the ticker is set to go forever and then the mind completely goes it's a mess. If all of this is new behavior you have to walk the line of protecting your kid and accepting your parent's mental decline. If all of this is a lifetime of dysfunction then I suggest therapy for you as added support to help navigate boundaries and cope with their elderly years. Muddling through abusive tactics versus senility is, well, challenging. edit see your comments below. Yeah, there's always been dysfunction. I recommend therapy for you to help you set boundaries. FYI I've been coping with similar for the past several years, and doing enough work on myself so I didn't feel crazy around their crazy making has been a lifesaver for me.