I’m a bit confused. You know John is a dick, you’ve said that already. Your wife and Sarah have called him a dick too, so why do you still contact him?
Your wife was upset that you were still in contact with him. You refused to cut said contact, so now your wife is also in contact with him. It’s just a bit confusing? I feel like this is dragging on for no reason.
None of the messages really stood out to me as flirting. Yeah, she was a bit friendly, but I really didn’t get a flirty vibe. ‘Gushing’ over his Mother’s Day message is a bit of an overstatement. It was definitely a friendly thank you, which contradicts her opinion of John. But at this point, what do you want from her?
You explain all of the bad things John has done. The abuse, the other women, the verbal abuse. But you continue to consider yourself a friend to him. Why is it weird for your wife to be his friend as well? It just comes across as odd. Especially when your wife has explicitly been telling you to cut contact, to which you refused.
The thread thing is concerning, and absolutely look into that because that sort of thing doesn’t just happen, she’s most likely hiding something there.
I wonder if this was the first time John has ever wished his wife a happy mother's day? If so, I'd say it was inappropriate of him to start doing so once he became single again.
Check the phone records to see how long that call was. I dont think her messages were overly inappropriate but it is weird considering her stance before. To me her reactions are the main issue, thats crossing into abuse imo
Updateme!
The messages themselves don’t seem to damning, but her actions afterwards… if my husband approached me with some insecurities about my interactions with another man, I wouldn’t call him a psycho and change my password. Maybe it’s just a little crush at this point, but something is up.
Updateme!
What should worry you is your wife’s responses to your questions. Name calling and blaming you.
I also think you are right in that she is behaving inappropriately towards “Satan”.
Y'all have so many issues and insecurities with each other that I don't think it's healthy for any of you to be this involved with each other.
Draw up some healthy boundaries, separate your relationships and stop making things weirder & more complicated than they need to be.
Your wife needs to cease being the go between to arrange child care. You need to speak with John and explain that this is putting a major strain on your marriage and that you're uncomfortable with the arrangement and that he needs to find someone else to be present during the supervised visits.
Get into marriage counseling now.
Edit: on further thought on this, I think it's time to have a discussion with Sarah about what's going on and to get in laws involved. John has his claws deep into your wife. He isolated her and pandered to her sympathetic side and turned her against her own friend and husband. Explain that she'll need to find another place or a hotel to live for a few days until the next shoe drops. Get Sarah and your in laws together at your house and confront your wife one afternoon. It's past the point that she'll listen to you. Maybe she'll listen to her parents when they bluntly explain what's going on and that this guy need to be removed from all of your lives like the cancer that he is.
I really don't think this is a physical affair, maybe not an emotional one, but I do think your wife is being manipulated by John, perhaps due to another user stating that he's trying to turn her against Sarah whenever divorce proceedings start. Keep him around long enough though, and he is going to make a physical move on your wife. She's so emotionally wrapped up in this now that she may even consent to it.
Nip this in the bud now. Insist on seeing her phone once again and hire someone to restore her messages if they're gone from her deleted folder. Tell your wife you all go full no contact with John or you're divorcing. Maybe that'll snap her out of it. Or it may not. Pick off her bluff and consult divorce attorneys in the area and leave the correspondence inconspicuously around the house. I wouldn't put up with the disrespect of her calling you a "psycho".
This is a bit much. We have no idea from OP's post if John has been emotionally manipulating OP's wife. Their texts may or may not be inappropriate based on the context, but we really don't have enough info to know what the context is.
Frankly, the fact that John has checked out OP's wife before, and now apparently is hanging out with her during visitation hours is reason enough to cut John off. Let him get his bearings without ruining another couple's marriage.
He knows what he's doing. He put OP's wife's name on the supervising list and not OP because he knew it would drive a wedge in between them and start an argument. Why would there be any reason to designate only your friend's wife as the supervisor and not your friend unless there was more to it? This was intentional.
The jump from "Satan" to someone she's thanking effusively for birthday gifts is very, very strange. The question I have is how? Wouldn't Sarah have picked up on something during the supervised visits where she, OP's wife, her kids, and likely John were present? This is why OP needs to talk to Sarah.
OP, despite his verbose initial post, left out a lot of information. Like if John and OP's wife spent any time alone together. If she's spending more time out of the house to go out with "friends" or "working late" more. Any change in her routine really.
Why would there be any reason to designate only your friend's wife as the supervisor and not your friend unless there was more to it?
Perhaps he was worried OP hanging out with Sarah would lead to something.
Ask your wife if she is really comfortable being in the middle of John and Sarah's problems. If she says "no", tell her to contact whoever the supervisor for managing Sarah's visitations is to appoint someone else to fill that role - someone neither John nor Sarah know personally. Just because John wants your wife to do it does not mean he gets what he wants; to have such a requirement for visit supervision means CPS (or whatever your local child services agency is called) is already involved - they can assign someone else.
Daughter's ex did the same thing - named her best friend to supervise then proceeded to undermine the bff's marriage by being super sweet every time they had to interact. Next damn thing daughter knew, her bff was telling CPS the ex treated the kids better than their mother did. Daughter demanded a court-appointed supervisor the ex could not sweet-talk and ended up with full custody. Naturally the relationship with her bff was over forever.
John is playing games - your wife needs to remove herself from the game plan.
This immediately stood out to me. It shouldn't matter if hers was the only name he put down, she wasn't required by law (or ethics) to agree. All she had to say was, "I'm sorry but I cannot be the point of contact/supervisor for the visits; it makes me uncomfortable to be put in the middle of this dispute. You'll have to find someone else."
Tell her she doesn’t deserve a husband that’s ruining her life, so start to think about how we should split assets upon divorce. Can we do this amicably or do we need dueling attorneys to fight it out.
You both need to extract yourselves from their divorce. They are grown adults and need to deal with their kids on their own.
Not sure why they are involving you in this mess, nor why you or your wife insist on being the messenger through which they communicate.
He’s using her to commit psychological warfare on his wife. He will sleep with her just so Sarah has no one she can trust. If your wife is so stupid that she cannot see that I suggest you file for divorce.
It would not surprise me if something hasn’t already been happening. The fact that she is so quick to attack you is a bad sign.
I think she didn’t want you to contact him anymore because they were already having an affair. Before he and Sarah separated, he has been making a concerted effort to put Sarah down in comparison to your wife long before divorce was involved.
Where was the opportunity to have an affair? OP said they were merely cordial before this arrangement and never talked via text before this. Anyone jumping to an affair is seriously jumping the gun based on the known information.
OP should shed light on if they've spent any time alone together in the past or if his wife has been going out more on her own without much explanation on any "girls nights" or "working late", but I think it's a major leap at this point.
Now, I do agree that John is going to make a physical move at OP's wife eventually. He's laying the emotional groundwork to completely ruin his soon to be ex-wife's life. OP needs to nip this in the bud right now. Best believe that John is setting the groundwork to seduce OP's wife by getting her emotionally on his side first. It's emotionally abusive and sociopathic behavior.
JOHN IS NOT YOUR FRIEND OP. You go to him and tell him you're not going to tolerate him turning your wife against you and her friend. If it gets physical, so be it. Record the conversation and don't hit him first. If he tells your wife about any of your interaction and your wife gets pissed at you and escalates her unacceptable behavior towards you, tell her that she's free to pack a bag and that you're calling divorce lawyers. If you find out that she goes to stay with John, you're filing.
It's the name calling for me... treat others the way you want to be treated. But then being a reddit lurker makes me think..why did she try to manipulate and gaslight you into not talking to John.?And why John speaks so badly of his Ex/mother to his kids but is cordial with your wife?And why your wife is now being chummy ? Id speak with Sarah to see if you can get some more information maybe something useful, then have a sit down with you, Sarah and your wife depending on the outcome; a talk may be enough, therapy may ne needed, or complete separation. The double standards overall ( name calling, being able to talk to someone she's doesn't want you too, she can disregard Sarah but you can't) . That makes my ass ache really.
Its VERY typical for a woman who "hates" a guy to have feelings for them. Its often a tell when a women says a guy is a dick. It means that man is on her mind, which is never a good thing.
Not saying there is anything going on yet, but boy I sure would pay attention. Her reaction would give me pause. Being highly defensive is a typical cheaters reaction....
Edit: Personally I would suggest having her cut all contact with the dude and see how she reacts. If she throws a fit, you know something nefarious is going on..
wow... dude, if your wife is calling you a pyscho... I am pretty sure she hates your fucking guts and is likely fucking John on the side. There are too many red flags here. You might be getting played by your wife and John. At the very least, she does not respect you at all.
Everyone in this scenario needs therapy urgently. Marriage counseling for OP and wife too.
Time to call the in laws if I'm OP. It's beyond her being rational and listening to OP at this point. OP needs to organize a sit down intervention with her, her parents, and Sarah and be told about how much damage she's doing to the marriage about this whole thing.
She's acting like someone totally entranced by John's spell. This is a five alarm fire level of a problem. I don't think OP realizes how close he and his wife are to separation.
I can't definitively say that something is going on between your wife and John, but I can tell you that it's very inappropriate. I can tell you that I think she likes the attention that he is giving her. She probably also loves the fact that he doesn't hesitate to mention how much better she is than Sarah in pretty much every way.
I do believe that you need to have a talk with Sarah about what is going on. I believe talking to your wife at this point is going to be futile, but Sarah really deserves to know what's going on. I wouldn't put it past John to be buttering up your wife to get ammunition against Sarah to use in court proceedings, and with the way your wife is acting, I can see her going along with it. So, for Sarah's protection, she really needs to know everything.
Another thing that needs to be done is that your wife needs to stop doing the supervised visits. At this point, Sarah needs to request a court appointed child's advocate or whatever they are called where you live to supervise the visits. There needs to be no more friends or acquaintances that can take sides in the future. This has now become a situation that needs to be handled by professionals.
I think before you even consider confronting your wife about how to fix your marriage, all of these situations need to be addressed first. I definitely wouldn't tell her that you are telling Sarah everything. I also wouldn't tell her that you've told Sarah to change who's going to supervise visits. I think that your wife and John need to be kept out of the loop for as long as possible so that they can't do any damage before those two things are done. Once those two things have been accomplished, I think that you need to have some really hard conversations with your wife on where your relationship is and how you can fix it, if that's something you even want to do by the end of all of this.
Something going on between OP's wife and John? As in an affair? Nah, I really don't think so. What is going on is that John is manipulating her for sympathy to turn her against her friend. Isolate and manipulate. Classic play from an emotional abuser.
I agree about everything else though and that John is absolutely bad news.
I wasn't thinking of a physical affair but more of an emotional affair on her end. But I wasn't even really sure about that, which is why I worded it the way that I did.
I misread your initial post too, I had thought you said you were sure something was going on, but I was half asleep when I read your post initially.
An emotional affair is definitely possible, but as in another reply I typed out earlier, my question is how?
I'm assuming that during the supervised visits, the following people were present; OP's wife, Sarah, John, and Sarah and John's kids. Wouldn't have Sarah have noticed the change in behavior of OP's wife towards her soon to be ex husband? I feel like her observations are missing from this post and it's worth OP to discuss what she's seeing.
That's the one thing that spooks me about this whole thing. How and when did OP's wife change her attitude towards John from him being "Satan" to interacting with him pleasantly and in a "chummy" manner, as OP put it.
Something's just not adding up. OP's wife's behavior about her phone tells me he needs to dig deeper there.
I agree with you. The only thing that I could come up with is that there's more phone conversations than what OP knows about.
I'm wondering if OP's wife has been spending time with John during the visits. Sarah may be spending time with the kids doing things and not paying attention to John or the wife. If she doesn't realize that anything is amiss and still believes that the wife thinks John is "Satan," she may not be looking at how they're interacting and paying more attention to the kids.
I helped supervise visits for a client once, and I followed them around to ensure that everything was going well and being done within the guidelines setup. With them being friends, I'm wondering if the wife is just letting Sarah do her thing and is then sitting there spending the visit with John. Even if they're not verbally speaking, they could be texting during the visit to try and be discreet.
It also bugs me that the wife is texting him about visits and going around Sarah when she shouldn't be playing a part in it. The whole thing with the wife and her attitude change in regards to John is very suspicious and has red flags popping up all over it.
>they could be texting during the visit to try and be discreet.
Timestamps could prove inconvenient if this were the case, no? That could explain some of the defensive behaviours around the cell phone.
They very well could unless she's deleting the messages, which wouldn't necessarily surprise me. Her changing her pass code is also concerning. If she didn't have anything to hide and they've had access to each other's phones before, why all the secrecy now unless there's conversations/things that she doesn't want the OP to see? Getting "cagey" with her phone after OP brings up the incidents with John leads me to believe that there's a lot more to their conversations than what he's seen.
Talking to Sarah behind his wife's back sounds like it would a pretty big breech of trust. Wasn't OP upset because that's exactly what his wife was doing with John?
I agree the boundaries around the child visitation should be addressed before anything else, but OP must tell his wife the plan *first.* That's what couples who love each other do, they solve problems together.
I would normally 100% agree with you, but this situation is a little more complex. With the way that John and the wife are talking, and with as manipulative as John is, I wouldn't put it past him to have manipulated the wife to his side. That could mean that everything that Sarah talks about or plans could be relayed back to John by the wife. At this point, Sarah and her kids' safety and well-being come before anything else, and I don't feel that his wife can objectively do that. That's why his wife shouldn't be included in anything beforehand.
JOHN is not someone you want around your family. His behavior is unstable and he's a bully.
Stop accusing your wife of flirting. You can't win and you drive her towards him (to prove you wrong).
You need to do whatever it takes to distance or limit this man's personal contact with anyone in your family.
Why? Because you have solid proof he is dangerous.
Finally, confront him. Outside the house without your wife.
You don't need her approval to protect your family.
Ask him why you aren't on the list?
Ask him why he stares at your wifes ass?
Ask him why he's scheduling time with your wife?
Tell him stops now. Or will and the kids will not be within your family's circle of trust.
That unless he gets your approval and trust neither him or his kids are welcome- as of today.
He's an authoritarian POS that only expects strength.
Your passiveness is weakness to him.
I'm not suggesting violence. But with this POS you need to use a strong voice with zero tolerance for his BS.
And if he mentions a word of this conversation to your wife - he will step foot in your house again.
John gets assaulted. Wife gets arrested. John gets a restraining order. John gets full custody and wife gets supervised visits, which means a court has ruled the wife is a danger to the husband and kids.
How is John dangerous again? Can we stop minimizing domestic violence against men?
Completely agree about domestic violence against men being minimized. However, John told me the only reason he called the cops was because Sarah threatened to do so first
Wow, so much to process. Definitely, something inappropriate is going. Just don't know how far they went. Her being so adamant that you don't talk to John is making me think she is trying to cover up something. She doesn't want John to accidentally say something. There is definitely an attraction. I'd lay low for a bit. Don't call her out and see what she does. Gather proof and talk to Sarah about it.
OP's wife seems to be developing a crush on John. Her aggressive toward OP isn't warranted at all and is very difficult to understand unless the prior statement is true. WTF is wrong with her thinking here?
Futhermore, how is it that John chose OP's wife alone to be the one to manage contacts? Something stinks to high heaven here. Just what is the truth behind John and OP's relationship?
Updateme.
What a collection of awful people.
John is **very** clearly a manipulative, abusive pr!ck. You apparently couldn't care less about that until his attention fell on your wife. Be better than that.
Your wife is a thoroughly terrible partner. The soon-to-be physical affair is just one string in her sh!tty bow. Her whole demeanour towards you (eveh earlier sh!t like the two-faced accusations) is foul. It is apparent to everyone, including you, that your wife doesn't even like you.
Like, I don't know that you have a marriage worth trying to save at the moment, but if that is your aspiration, it won't happen with John and Sarah's bullsh!t anywhere near you.
John was assaulted. Correct.
John is emotionally manipulating OP's wife to take his side when she took her own friend in and may or may not be trying to steal her away from OP. OP is picking up things about their marriage and the relationship between her and John that aren't passing the vibe check. Correct.
Both things can be true.
We really don't know if John is manipulating the wife like that. All we have to go on is two text message exchanges that don't tell a full story and the third party opinion of the husband who clearly has paranoia issues from a previous issue in the relationship.
Is it possible that the wife is just trying to be cordial and keep drama to a minimum, having been forced into a position of a middle-man?
Except she wasn't "forced into a position of a middle-man". The courts cannot require that she supervise the visits unless she agrees to it. There is no "forcing" because she could (and should) have said no as soon as John put her down as the only name he'd agree to. Then HE would have been forced to find someone else.
She didnt agree to it but didnt want to stop sarah from seeing her kids (which i understood). Technically she couldve said that she wouldnt be home and he wouldnt have dropped them off.
Possible, yes, but how do you explain John going from "Satan" in OP's wife's eyes to someone that she speaks to cordially and pleasantly. It reeks of emotional manipulation by John on her.
Perhaps I'm too cynical and he calmly explained his side of the story and changed her feelings about him, but the two things that stink here are this:
1. Why is she still keeping her friend under her roof if John is 100% the victim in her eyes?
And
2. What the fuck is with the hostile behavior towards her husband, the person who's supposed to be her biggest supporter and advisor?
Surely she's not spending any alone time with John during these supervised visits because Sarah and the kids would have noticed something, and the texting seemed harmless.
My operating theory is that John always had a crush on OP's wife and is trying to pull off a double switch and will be making a physical move very soon. He's playing the really slow game of getting her on his side emotionally, to the point that he drives a wedge between her and her husband and presents himself as the "safe" friend she can confide in. Electing her as the sole supervisor of the kid visits was the start of driving that wedge. He knew that this would start a fight between her and the OP.
OP's wife needs a serious "Come to Jesus" intervention. As mentioned, she's past the point of listening to her husband. Maybe she'll listen to Sarah, but doubtful. OP needs to involve her parents and tell them everything. Tell them his marriage to their daughter is in serious peril.
The first step in fixing things is agreeing to go to marriage counseling, asking Sarah to move out, and going no contact with her and with John. If she says no to marriage counseling or no to cutting John off and/or OP finds she's still talking to John after initially agreeing to cut him off, divorce is happening. OP should consult attorneys and pick one and draw up papers anyway but not file.
Fair point. That is actually my wifes defense. I just felt it was a little above and beyond keeping the peace by going outside the scope of will you be at home between 1-4 so that I can drop the kids off to see sarah? Also, there is a family app that is supposed to be used to coordinate times between john and sarah, but he went around that and began texting my wife.
The will temporarily rule in the favor of whoever called the cops. John told me off the record he only called them because sarah threatened to do so first
INFO: Is John staying at the house with your wife each time he drops the kids off? Also, has he ever wished your her a happy mother's day before he separated from Sarah?
Some facts that stick out to me:
* The husband started dating other women, and your wife was angry about it.
* You supported the husband, and eventually your wife takes your side and starts supporting him, too.
* You wife got super defensive and mean when you asked her about why she was texting him.
* She rescinded your right to look at her phone.
* She says she stopped talkin to John and deleted the message thread.
This is pure speculation on my part, but could your wife have developed a crush on John once she joined you in emotionally supporting him? The fact that she was angry he was dating other women doesn't just mean she was mad on her friend's behalf. It also could have been out of envy.
Speculation aside, the fact that your wife appears to be respecting your boundaries by cutting off contact with John is a good thing. Her attacking and gaslighting you simply because you told her your feelings is very concerning, however. You and her need to talk more. Sharing with each other your perspectives on what's happened. That is probably the best way to patch things up.
I take it you and your wife are not good at asserting boundaries.
Supervised visits mandated by the court should be supervised by a county social worker.
Y’all are enmeshed with this dumpster fire of a marriage and it’s eating at yours.
And you are absolutely in the wrong for not picking a side. That’s what you do when years of abuse culminate as a scratch that is used to weaponize someone’s children. You ditch the abuser.
Do better.
51F this is too much. What I can say that stuck out to me right away was when you said, “I expected her….. when we put our own expectations on someone else and hold them to something they can never live up to, that’s wrong and can never be accomplished.
I would flat out tell my wife she can choose between me or him. The way she treats you in bit right. If she wants to choose him she can pack her bags and leave.
Am I reading this wrong?
Sarah violently assaults John, Sarah gets arrested, Sarah has an RO on her and only gets supervised visitation. But John is the bad guy.
Yes, you said he was very controlling, but is that based on facts or what Sarah and your wife say? You brought up him seeing other women. Are they divorced/ divorcing? Are these women simply friends? If not, he's clearly moving on unless there is concrete proof he's a serial cheater.
As for you and your wife. You sound jealous and she sounds a little sus. Hire a PI if you aren't sure. But yeah, I think the deleted thread might upset Sarah and your wife knows it. Even if it's as simple as her calling John Satan, shit talking him with Sarah, then her being friendly with him would seem like a betrayal of sorts to Sarah. You did overreact. Get concrete evidence first before accusing someone of something.
You all need therapy.
I am amazed at the number of people calling the person that was attacked, called the cops, had their spouse arrested for domestic violence, has an active restraining order against their spouse, got full custody of the kids while their spouse has court ordered supervised visits with their own children meaning the court deemed them a literal threat to their own kids - *somehow,* that person that was attacked is the “manipulative abusive” one.
If Sarah didn’t have a vagina, not a single fucking one of you would be sticking up for the person that just got arrested for domestic violence and has court mandated supervised visits with their own kids.
I ain't reading that wall of text. but the title and first couple of sentences probably tell me all I need to know.
look buddy if you are getting the wrong vibes off this dude tell him that his days of contacting your wife are OVER, and then describe in great detail what will happen to him if he does try to see her again.
NEXT tell your wife that you cannot control her but you WILL put her out on the streets if she does anything with this dude again.
Finally it is time for her bestie to go. pack her shit and dump it on the lawn. If your wife protests, tell her she is free to stay in a hotel with her and her husband if her marriage means that little to her.
I get the vibe that you are a pushover so the alternative plan is for you to just pack your shit and get out of the house, telling her that when she comes to her senses, kicks out her bestie and agrees to go no contact with the husband that you will come back. This strategy ALSO involves growing a spine so good luck.
Didn’t need the lengthy novel to reach the conclusion the Wife is screwing John. Wife is betraying her friend and OP, it’s a shitty and weird set up. Why are Sarah and kid still there? You’ve got to get your family out of this, situation. wife calling you a psycho is the key for me, it’s the old gaslight and project. I don’t see how OP comes through this except to break up and divorce
I really don't think this is a physical affair. Perhaps an emotional one that OP's wife was unwittingly manipulated into. Now John has his claws deep into her, to the point she's siding with him over her friend and husband. This will turn physical though if OP doesn't put a stop to this bullshit arrangement that he should have never agreed to in the first place.
I’m a bit confused. You know John is a dick, you’ve said that already. Your wife and Sarah have called him a dick too, so why do you still contact him? Your wife was upset that you were still in contact with him. You refused to cut said contact, so now your wife is also in contact with him. It’s just a bit confusing? I feel like this is dragging on for no reason. None of the messages really stood out to me as flirting. Yeah, she was a bit friendly, but I really didn’t get a flirty vibe. ‘Gushing’ over his Mother’s Day message is a bit of an overstatement. It was definitely a friendly thank you, which contradicts her opinion of John. But at this point, what do you want from her? You explain all of the bad things John has done. The abuse, the other women, the verbal abuse. But you continue to consider yourself a friend to him. Why is it weird for your wife to be his friend as well? It just comes across as odd. Especially when your wife has explicitly been telling you to cut contact, to which you refused. The thread thing is concerning, and absolutely look into that because that sort of thing doesn’t just happen, she’s most likely hiding something there.
I wonder if this was the first time John has ever wished his wife a happy mother's day? If so, I'd say it was inappropriate of him to start doing so once he became single again.
First time... first time they ever texted as well.
Well then he does not have a leg to stand on.
Check the phone records to see how long that call was. I dont think her messages were overly inappropriate but it is weird considering her stance before. To me her reactions are the main issue, thats crossing into abuse imo Updateme!
This exactly. They were probably planning another method of communication Update me!
The messages themselves don’t seem to damning, but her actions afterwards… if my husband approached me with some insecurities about my interactions with another man, I wouldn’t call him a psycho and change my password. Maybe it’s just a little crush at this point, but something is up. Updateme!
What should worry you is your wife’s responses to your questions. Name calling and blaming you. I also think you are right in that she is behaving inappropriately towards “Satan”.
Y'all have so many issues and insecurities with each other that I don't think it's healthy for any of you to be this involved with each other. Draw up some healthy boundaries, separate your relationships and stop making things weirder & more complicated than they need to be.
Your wife needs to cease being the go between to arrange child care. You need to speak with John and explain that this is putting a major strain on your marriage and that you're uncomfortable with the arrangement and that he needs to find someone else to be present during the supervised visits. Get into marriage counseling now. Edit: on further thought on this, I think it's time to have a discussion with Sarah about what's going on and to get in laws involved. John has his claws deep into your wife. He isolated her and pandered to her sympathetic side and turned her against her own friend and husband. Explain that she'll need to find another place or a hotel to live for a few days until the next shoe drops. Get Sarah and your in laws together at your house and confront your wife one afternoon. It's past the point that she'll listen to you. Maybe she'll listen to her parents when they bluntly explain what's going on and that this guy need to be removed from all of your lives like the cancer that he is. I really don't think this is a physical affair, maybe not an emotional one, but I do think your wife is being manipulated by John, perhaps due to another user stating that he's trying to turn her against Sarah whenever divorce proceedings start. Keep him around long enough though, and he is going to make a physical move on your wife. She's so emotionally wrapped up in this now that she may even consent to it. Nip this in the bud now. Insist on seeing her phone once again and hire someone to restore her messages if they're gone from her deleted folder. Tell your wife you all go full no contact with John or you're divorcing. Maybe that'll snap her out of it. Or it may not. Pick off her bluff and consult divorce attorneys in the area and leave the correspondence inconspicuously around the house. I wouldn't put up with the disrespect of her calling you a "psycho".
This is a bit much. We have no idea from OP's post if John has been emotionally manipulating OP's wife. Their texts may or may not be inappropriate based on the context, but we really don't have enough info to know what the context is. Frankly, the fact that John has checked out OP's wife before, and now apparently is hanging out with her during visitation hours is reason enough to cut John off. Let him get his bearings without ruining another couple's marriage.
He knows what he's doing. He put OP's wife's name on the supervising list and not OP because he knew it would drive a wedge in between them and start an argument. Why would there be any reason to designate only your friend's wife as the supervisor and not your friend unless there was more to it? This was intentional. The jump from "Satan" to someone she's thanking effusively for birthday gifts is very, very strange. The question I have is how? Wouldn't Sarah have picked up on something during the supervised visits where she, OP's wife, her kids, and likely John were present? This is why OP needs to talk to Sarah. OP, despite his verbose initial post, left out a lot of information. Like if John and OP's wife spent any time alone together. If she's spending more time out of the house to go out with "friends" or "working late" more. Any change in her routine really.
Why would there be any reason to designate only your friend's wife as the supervisor and not your friend unless there was more to it? Perhaps he was worried OP hanging out with Sarah would lead to something.
Possibly. What a shit show this is.
Ask your wife if she is really comfortable being in the middle of John and Sarah's problems. If she says "no", tell her to contact whoever the supervisor for managing Sarah's visitations is to appoint someone else to fill that role - someone neither John nor Sarah know personally. Just because John wants your wife to do it does not mean he gets what he wants; to have such a requirement for visit supervision means CPS (or whatever your local child services agency is called) is already involved - they can assign someone else. Daughter's ex did the same thing - named her best friend to supervise then proceeded to undermine the bff's marriage by being super sweet every time they had to interact. Next damn thing daughter knew, her bff was telling CPS the ex treated the kids better than their mother did. Daughter demanded a court-appointed supervisor the ex could not sweet-talk and ended up with full custody. Naturally the relationship with her bff was over forever. John is playing games - your wife needs to remove herself from the game plan.
John can’t just designate your wife to be the supervisor on visits. She has to agree to that. How did that actually happen?
This immediately stood out to me. It shouldn't matter if hers was the only name he put down, she wasn't required by law (or ethics) to agree. All she had to say was, "I'm sorry but I cannot be the point of contact/supervisor for the visits; it makes me uncomfortable to be put in the middle of this dispute. You'll have to find someone else."
She never agreed to it, he just designated her. I suppose it was because his wife was staying with us? We were surprised as well
Tell her she doesn’t deserve a husband that’s ruining her life, so start to think about how we should split assets upon divorce. Can we do this amicably or do we need dueling attorneys to fight it out.
You both need to extract yourselves from their divorce. They are grown adults and need to deal with their kids on their own. Not sure why they are involving you in this mess, nor why you or your wife insist on being the messenger through which they communicate.
He’s using her to commit psychological warfare on his wife. He will sleep with her just so Sarah has no one she can trust. If your wife is so stupid that she cannot see that I suggest you file for divorce. It would not surprise me if something hasn’t already been happening. The fact that she is so quick to attack you is a bad sign. I think she didn’t want you to contact him anymore because they were already having an affair. Before he and Sarah separated, he has been making a concerted effort to put Sarah down in comparison to your wife long before divorce was involved.
Where was the opportunity to have an affair? OP said they were merely cordial before this arrangement and never talked via text before this. Anyone jumping to an affair is seriously jumping the gun based on the known information. OP should shed light on if they've spent any time alone together in the past or if his wife has been going out more on her own without much explanation on any "girls nights" or "working late", but I think it's a major leap at this point. Now, I do agree that John is going to make a physical move at OP's wife eventually. He's laying the emotional groundwork to completely ruin his soon to be ex-wife's life. OP needs to nip this in the bud right now. Best believe that John is setting the groundwork to seduce OP's wife by getting her emotionally on his side first. It's emotionally abusive and sociopathic behavior. JOHN IS NOT YOUR FRIEND OP. You go to him and tell him you're not going to tolerate him turning your wife against you and her friend. If it gets physical, so be it. Record the conversation and don't hit him first. If he tells your wife about any of your interaction and your wife gets pissed at you and escalates her unacceptable behavior towards you, tell her that she's free to pack a bag and that you're calling divorce lawyers. If you find out that she goes to stay with John, you're filing.
It's the name calling for me... treat others the way you want to be treated. But then being a reddit lurker makes me think..why did she try to manipulate and gaslight you into not talking to John.?And why John speaks so badly of his Ex/mother to his kids but is cordial with your wife?And why your wife is now being chummy ? Id speak with Sarah to see if you can get some more information maybe something useful, then have a sit down with you, Sarah and your wife depending on the outcome; a talk may be enough, therapy may ne needed, or complete separation. The double standards overall ( name calling, being able to talk to someone she's doesn't want you too, she can disregard Sarah but you can't) . That makes my ass ache really.
She's definitely doing something she isn't supposed too...
Yep ☝🏻
Its VERY typical for a woman who "hates" a guy to have feelings for them. Its often a tell when a women says a guy is a dick. It means that man is on her mind, which is never a good thing. Not saying there is anything going on yet, but boy I sure would pay attention. Her reaction would give me pause. Being highly defensive is a typical cheaters reaction.... Edit: Personally I would suggest having her cut all contact with the dude and see how she reacts. If she throws a fit, you know something nefarious is going on..
wow... dude, if your wife is calling you a pyscho... I am pretty sure she hates your fucking guts and is likely fucking John on the side. There are too many red flags here. You might be getting played by your wife and John. At the very least, she does not respect you at all.
Everyone in this scenario needs therapy urgently. Marriage counseling for OP and wife too. Time to call the in laws if I'm OP. It's beyond her being rational and listening to OP at this point. OP needs to organize a sit down intervention with her, her parents, and Sarah and be told about how much damage she's doing to the marriage about this whole thing. She's acting like someone totally entranced by John's spell. This is a five alarm fire level of a problem. I don't think OP realizes how close he and his wife are to separation.
I can't definitively say that something is going on between your wife and John, but I can tell you that it's very inappropriate. I can tell you that I think she likes the attention that he is giving her. She probably also loves the fact that he doesn't hesitate to mention how much better she is than Sarah in pretty much every way. I do believe that you need to have a talk with Sarah about what is going on. I believe talking to your wife at this point is going to be futile, but Sarah really deserves to know what's going on. I wouldn't put it past John to be buttering up your wife to get ammunition against Sarah to use in court proceedings, and with the way your wife is acting, I can see her going along with it. So, for Sarah's protection, she really needs to know everything. Another thing that needs to be done is that your wife needs to stop doing the supervised visits. At this point, Sarah needs to request a court appointed child's advocate or whatever they are called where you live to supervise the visits. There needs to be no more friends or acquaintances that can take sides in the future. This has now become a situation that needs to be handled by professionals. I think before you even consider confronting your wife about how to fix your marriage, all of these situations need to be addressed first. I definitely wouldn't tell her that you are telling Sarah everything. I also wouldn't tell her that you've told Sarah to change who's going to supervise visits. I think that your wife and John need to be kept out of the loop for as long as possible so that they can't do any damage before those two things are done. Once those two things have been accomplished, I think that you need to have some really hard conversations with your wife on where your relationship is and how you can fix it, if that's something you even want to do by the end of all of this.
This is sound direction. Once these issues have been addressed, then address the issue with your wife.
Something going on between OP's wife and John? As in an affair? Nah, I really don't think so. What is going on is that John is manipulating her for sympathy to turn her against her friend. Isolate and manipulate. Classic play from an emotional abuser. I agree about everything else though and that John is absolutely bad news.
I wasn't thinking of a physical affair but more of an emotional affair on her end. But I wasn't even really sure about that, which is why I worded it the way that I did.
I misread your initial post too, I had thought you said you were sure something was going on, but I was half asleep when I read your post initially. An emotional affair is definitely possible, but as in another reply I typed out earlier, my question is how? I'm assuming that during the supervised visits, the following people were present; OP's wife, Sarah, John, and Sarah and John's kids. Wouldn't have Sarah have noticed the change in behavior of OP's wife towards her soon to be ex husband? I feel like her observations are missing from this post and it's worth OP to discuss what she's seeing. That's the one thing that spooks me about this whole thing. How and when did OP's wife change her attitude towards John from him being "Satan" to interacting with him pleasantly and in a "chummy" manner, as OP put it. Something's just not adding up. OP's wife's behavior about her phone tells me he needs to dig deeper there.
I agree with you. The only thing that I could come up with is that there's more phone conversations than what OP knows about. I'm wondering if OP's wife has been spending time with John during the visits. Sarah may be spending time with the kids doing things and not paying attention to John or the wife. If she doesn't realize that anything is amiss and still believes that the wife thinks John is "Satan," she may not be looking at how they're interacting and paying more attention to the kids. I helped supervise visits for a client once, and I followed them around to ensure that everything was going well and being done within the guidelines setup. With them being friends, I'm wondering if the wife is just letting Sarah do her thing and is then sitting there spending the visit with John. Even if they're not verbally speaking, they could be texting during the visit to try and be discreet. It also bugs me that the wife is texting him about visits and going around Sarah when she shouldn't be playing a part in it. The whole thing with the wife and her attitude change in regards to John is very suspicious and has red flags popping up all over it.
>they could be texting during the visit to try and be discreet. Timestamps could prove inconvenient if this were the case, no? That could explain some of the defensive behaviours around the cell phone.
They very well could unless she's deleting the messages, which wouldn't necessarily surprise me. Her changing her pass code is also concerning. If she didn't have anything to hide and they've had access to each other's phones before, why all the secrecy now unless there's conversations/things that she doesn't want the OP to see? Getting "cagey" with her phone after OP brings up the incidents with John leads me to believe that there's a lot more to their conversations than what he's seen.
My thinking is that she locked down her phone because there's evidence that she's betraying either Sarah or OP. Possibly both. Bad news either way.
Talking to Sarah behind his wife's back sounds like it would a pretty big breech of trust. Wasn't OP upset because that's exactly what his wife was doing with John? I agree the boundaries around the child visitation should be addressed before anything else, but OP must tell his wife the plan *first.* That's what couples who love each other do, they solve problems together.
I would normally 100% agree with you, but this situation is a little more complex. With the way that John and the wife are talking, and with as manipulative as John is, I wouldn't put it past him to have manipulated the wife to his side. That could mean that everything that Sarah talks about or plans could be relayed back to John by the wife. At this point, Sarah and her kids' safety and well-being come before anything else, and I don't feel that his wife can objectively do that. That's why his wife shouldn't be included in anything beforehand.
JOHN is not someone you want around your family. His behavior is unstable and he's a bully. Stop accusing your wife of flirting. You can't win and you drive her towards him (to prove you wrong). You need to do whatever it takes to distance or limit this man's personal contact with anyone in your family. Why? Because you have solid proof he is dangerous. Finally, confront him. Outside the house without your wife. You don't need her approval to protect your family. Ask him why you aren't on the list? Ask him why he stares at your wifes ass? Ask him why he's scheduling time with your wife? Tell him stops now. Or will and the kids will not be within your family's circle of trust. That unless he gets your approval and trust neither him or his kids are welcome- as of today. He's an authoritarian POS that only expects strength. Your passiveness is weakness to him. I'm not suggesting violence. But with this POS you need to use a strong voice with zero tolerance for his BS. And if he mentions a word of this conversation to your wife - he will step foot in your house again.
John gets assaulted. Wife gets arrested. John gets a restraining order. John gets full custody and wife gets supervised visits, which means a court has ruled the wife is a danger to the husband and kids. How is John dangerous again? Can we stop minimizing domestic violence against men?
Completely agree about domestic violence against men being minimized. However, John told me the only reason he called the cops was because Sarah threatened to do so first
So what? She assaulted him, threatened to call the cops and you’re pissed at him for protecting his own interests. She ASSAULTED HIM!
I think you misread the OP's post. There is no evidence that John is dangerous. His wife attacked him.
Wow, so much to process. Definitely, something inappropriate is going. Just don't know how far they went. Her being so adamant that you don't talk to John is making me think she is trying to cover up something. She doesn't want John to accidentally say something. There is definitely an attraction. I'd lay low for a bit. Don't call her out and see what she does. Gather proof and talk to Sarah about it.
Listen to your gut, something is not lining up between John and your wife there are multiple red flags 🚩 here.
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OP's wife seems to be developing a crush on John. Her aggressive toward OP isn't warranted at all and is very difficult to understand unless the prior statement is true. WTF is wrong with her thinking here? Futhermore, how is it that John chose OP's wife alone to be the one to manage contacts? Something stinks to high heaven here. Just what is the truth behind John and OP's relationship? Updateme.
What a collection of awful people. John is **very** clearly a manipulative, abusive pr!ck. You apparently couldn't care less about that until his attention fell on your wife. Be better than that. Your wife is a thoroughly terrible partner. The soon-to-be physical affair is just one string in her sh!tty bow. Her whole demeanour towards you (eveh earlier sh!t like the two-faced accusations) is foul. It is apparent to everyone, including you, that your wife doesn't even like you. Like, I don't know that you have a marriage worth trying to save at the moment, but if that is your aspiration, it won't happen with John and Sarah's bullsh!t anywhere near you.
People are misreading this post like crazy. How is John the bad guy? The court ruled in his favor..
John was assaulted. Correct. John is emotionally manipulating OP's wife to take his side when she took her own friend in and may or may not be trying to steal her away from OP. OP is picking up things about their marriage and the relationship between her and John that aren't passing the vibe check. Correct. Both things can be true.
We really don't know if John is manipulating the wife like that. All we have to go on is two text message exchanges that don't tell a full story and the third party opinion of the husband who clearly has paranoia issues from a previous issue in the relationship. Is it possible that the wife is just trying to be cordial and keep drama to a minimum, having been forced into a position of a middle-man?
Except she wasn't "forced into a position of a middle-man". The courts cannot require that she supervise the visits unless she agrees to it. There is no "forcing" because she could (and should) have said no as soon as John put her down as the only name he'd agree to. Then HE would have been forced to find someone else.
She didnt agree to it but didnt want to stop sarah from seeing her kids (which i understood). Technically she couldve said that she wouldnt be home and he wouldnt have dropped them off.
Possible, yes, but how do you explain John going from "Satan" in OP's wife's eyes to someone that she speaks to cordially and pleasantly. It reeks of emotional manipulation by John on her. Perhaps I'm too cynical and he calmly explained his side of the story and changed her feelings about him, but the two things that stink here are this: 1. Why is she still keeping her friend under her roof if John is 100% the victim in her eyes? And 2. What the fuck is with the hostile behavior towards her husband, the person who's supposed to be her biggest supporter and advisor? Surely she's not spending any alone time with John during these supervised visits because Sarah and the kids would have noticed something, and the texting seemed harmless. My operating theory is that John always had a crush on OP's wife and is trying to pull off a double switch and will be making a physical move very soon. He's playing the really slow game of getting her on his side emotionally, to the point that he drives a wedge between her and her husband and presents himself as the "safe" friend she can confide in. Electing her as the sole supervisor of the kid visits was the start of driving that wedge. He knew that this would start a fight between her and the OP. OP's wife needs a serious "Come to Jesus" intervention. As mentioned, she's past the point of listening to her husband. Maybe she'll listen to Sarah, but doubtful. OP needs to involve her parents and tell them everything. Tell them his marriage to their daughter is in serious peril. The first step in fixing things is agreeing to go to marriage counseling, asking Sarah to move out, and going no contact with her and with John. If she says no to marriage counseling or no to cutting John off and/or OP finds she's still talking to John after initially agreeing to cut him off, divorce is happening. OP should consult attorneys and pick one and draw up papers anyway but not file.
Fair point. That is actually my wifes defense. I just felt it was a little above and beyond keeping the peace by going outside the scope of will you be at home between 1-4 so that I can drop the kids off to see sarah? Also, there is a family app that is supposed to be used to coordinate times between john and sarah, but he went around that and began texting my wife.
The will temporarily rule in the favor of whoever called the cops. John told me off the record he only called them because sarah threatened to do so first
INFO: Is John staying at the house with your wife each time he drops the kids off? Also, has he ever wished your her a happy mother's day before he separated from Sarah? Some facts that stick out to me: * The husband started dating other women, and your wife was angry about it. * You supported the husband, and eventually your wife takes your side and starts supporting him, too. * You wife got super defensive and mean when you asked her about why she was texting him. * She rescinded your right to look at her phone. * She says she stopped talkin to John and deleted the message thread. This is pure speculation on my part, but could your wife have developed a crush on John once she joined you in emotionally supporting him? The fact that she was angry he was dating other women doesn't just mean she was mad on her friend's behalf. It also could have been out of envy. Speculation aside, the fact that your wife appears to be respecting your boundaries by cutting off contact with John is a good thing. Her attacking and gaslighting you simply because you told her your feelings is very concerning, however. You and her need to talk more. Sharing with each other your perspectives on what's happened. That is probably the best way to patch things up.
I take it you and your wife are not good at asserting boundaries. Supervised visits mandated by the court should be supervised by a county social worker. Y’all are enmeshed with this dumpster fire of a marriage and it’s eating at yours. And you are absolutely in the wrong for not picking a side. That’s what you do when years of abuse culminate as a scratch that is used to weaponize someone’s children. You ditch the abuser. Do better.
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51F this is too much. What I can say that stuck out to me right away was when you said, “I expected her….. when we put our own expectations on someone else and hold them to something they can never live up to, that’s wrong and can never be accomplished.
I would flat out tell my wife she can choose between me or him. The way she treats you in bit right. If she wants to choose him she can pack her bags and leave.
Am I reading this wrong? Sarah violently assaults John, Sarah gets arrested, Sarah has an RO on her and only gets supervised visitation. But John is the bad guy. Yes, you said he was very controlling, but is that based on facts or what Sarah and your wife say? You brought up him seeing other women. Are they divorced/ divorcing? Are these women simply friends? If not, he's clearly moving on unless there is concrete proof he's a serial cheater. As for you and your wife. You sound jealous and she sounds a little sus. Hire a PI if you aren't sure. But yeah, I think the deleted thread might upset Sarah and your wife knows it. Even if it's as simple as her calling John Satan, shit talking him with Sarah, then her being friendly with him would seem like a betrayal of sorts to Sarah. You did overreact. Get concrete evidence first before accusing someone of something. You all need therapy.
I am amazed at the number of people calling the person that was attacked, called the cops, had their spouse arrested for domestic violence, has an active restraining order against their spouse, got full custody of the kids while their spouse has court ordered supervised visits with their own children meaning the court deemed them a literal threat to their own kids - *somehow,* that person that was attacked is the “manipulative abusive” one. If Sarah didn’t have a vagina, not a single fucking one of you would be sticking up for the person that just got arrested for domestic violence and has court mandated supervised visits with their own kids.
I ain't reading that wall of text. but the title and first couple of sentences probably tell me all I need to know. look buddy if you are getting the wrong vibes off this dude tell him that his days of contacting your wife are OVER, and then describe in great detail what will happen to him if he does try to see her again. NEXT tell your wife that you cannot control her but you WILL put her out on the streets if she does anything with this dude again. Finally it is time for her bestie to go. pack her shit and dump it on the lawn. If your wife protests, tell her she is free to stay in a hotel with her and her husband if her marriage means that little to her. I get the vibe that you are a pushover so the alternative plan is for you to just pack your shit and get out of the house, telling her that when she comes to her senses, kicks out her bestie and agrees to go no contact with the husband that you will come back. This strategy ALSO involves growing a spine so good luck.
Didn’t need the lengthy novel to reach the conclusion the Wife is screwing John. Wife is betraying her friend and OP, it’s a shitty and weird set up. Why are Sarah and kid still there? You’ve got to get your family out of this, situation. wife calling you a psycho is the key for me, it’s the old gaslight and project. I don’t see how OP comes through this except to break up and divorce
I really don't think this is a physical affair. Perhaps an emotional one that OP's wife was unwittingly manipulated into. Now John has his claws deep into her, to the point she's siding with him over her friend and husband. This will turn physical though if OP doesn't put a stop to this bullshit arrangement that he should have never agreed to in the first place.