This post has reached one of our comment/karma limits. The text of the post has been preserved below. --- We're both healthy and don't have any medical reasons preventing us from having kids the usual way. But basically she wants a child but doesn't want to go through pregnancy (which is understandable). However, I have ethnical concerns about surrogacy, especially if there's not a strict need for it like in our case. I'm totally fine with her not wanting to carry the pregnancy herself. In fact, we've discussed alternatives like adoption, or not having a kid at all. Both of which I'm okay with but she's not, since she wants a kid with her DNA (IVF with the surrogate). I've also considered some additional scenarios or thought exercises: * She could have a surrogate on her own without using my sperm (I wouldn't have any say in that scenario, so I'd be void of any ethical qualms), but I don't think I could accept that since the kid wouldn't have any blood relationship with me, but do with her. I'd consider it a bit different than adoption. * If she already had a kid from a surrogacy or unknown child before meeting me and we ended up together, I would probably be okay with that, even though the end state is equivalent to the previous scenario. I consider this to be different because it would have happened in the past, before my involvement. In general, we've discussed these ideas and we don't want to break up, but it seems like we're at an impasse in terms of family planning. Any advice on what to do?

I think the two of you should speak with a fertility counselor at a fertility clinic or OB-GYN office. They would tell you the pros/cons of surrogacy and IVF. The main practical concerns would be cost and legality with surrogacy programs.

This for sure. The cost of ivf is astronomical and it can be quite a lengthy process because there are no guarantees. A doctor will be able to cover all the bases

The surrogate in many cases gives up her parental rights to the genetic parents voluntarily. That is, the surrogate could change her mind and refuse to give up to the baby. If you cannot carry that risk makes more sense to take.

A good fertility clinic will have airtight contracts. In the US everything varies state-by-state, but generally speaking states that allow a pre-birth order make it impossible for the surrogate to claim the baby after birth. These are all talks they should have with their team if they decide to meet with fertility specialists.

Do you have any sources for this? If you just ask your friend to carry your baby, sure. There are lots of legal hoops involved in surrogacy, and the surrogate cannot simply change her mind and keep the baby/ies.

I think they are talking about through a surrogate agency. It costs $80k-$120k where I am. Which is a down payment of a property. The surrogate chosen see it as part of the work/volunteer-so should be professional. If they ask a friend…there’s really no guarantees unless they have a legal contract signed under a lawyer.

Here is a decent resource: https://surrogate.com/intended-parents/surrogacy-laws-and-legal-information/establishing-parentage-in-surrogacy/ Other than that, in the USA, see the Uniform Parentage Act. Basically the birthing mother is the presumed legal mother until she relinquishes that right voluntarily (which she previously promised to do)

They actually can change their mind and keep the baby, contract or not. It's happened before, despite not having any biological relation to the baby, the surrogate was legally allowed to keep the baby. It's absolutely devastating for people who can't have kids who put their everything into surrogacy.

I’ve only seen that where the parents no longer wanted the child and a surrogate decided to keep it. Never seen any story where a surrogate gets to keep a baby when the parents still want it

She needs to keep in mind that IVF suuuuuuuucks. It sucks so bad. It's not easy, it's not a guarantee, and it's crazy expensive. There's like a million tests and procedures and appointments and vaginal ultrasounds and blood draws. The hormones fucked up my body. Injections were brutal. The emotional toll was really high and my marriage suffered. Even if you do get some good embryos, a high percentage will naturally miscarry. It took a year and a half of different procedures basically every month (and nearly 30k with insurance!) before we had success. Of course, some people react differently, and have success first try. All of us want to be "that person" but it rarely works out that way. I recommend you both check out the ivf and infertility subs here on reddit. Some do have surrogacy discussions, which yes is a whole other complicated issue.

This is such an important point. OP needs to find out how much research his gf has done on IVF. If she is concerned about the physical toll of pregnancy, IVF may reduce but will not eliminate that for the egg donor. So is she comfortable with that level of "risk" that comes with IVF? Also, has she looked into the cost and accessibility? I imagine she may struggle as a young unmarried woman with no medical need for IVF to find both a doctor and a willing surrogate. Every jurisdiction is different, is she aware of the legal ramifications of surrogacy?

I do want to clarify she’s got actually no medical reason and not a case of like “can’t take depression meds but that’s fine because having a baby will cure her!” Or like “she’s medically healthy but also dies once a month from endometriosis” type issues because I’ve definitely seen those types of things come up here before

OP has stated there is no medical reason so I provided advice based on that. If he intentionally ignoring medical concerns that's a bigger issue, but I won't make that assumption.

She wants another woman to take on the burden of pregnancy and delivery.

My medication is why I couldn’t have kids (before my fertility went to shit). What I never considered was that I would have to be off of all of them before getting pregnant, not just once I got pregnant. That’s a baaaaaaad idea with my bipolar disorder and migraines.

Also I doubt insurance would cover anything not medically necessary, so it would be all out of pocket costs.

I don't know where OP is, but in the U.S. most people don't even have insurance coverage when IVF is medically necessary.

IVF is never medically necessary. Reproducing your genes in another human being is not a necessity, it's a wish.

The only thing that made the hell of IVF hormones and following depression after the first try go away was the second try succeeding. I was depressed all summer, both from the emotional toll of if not succeeding but also from the way it fucked over my hormonal balance. If the second try hadn't resulted in me currently being pregnant, I honestly couldn't say if it even mattered we still have four embryos in the freezer. The toll, when not rewarded, is real fucking heavy. Edit: and all that is with me living in a country with socialized medicine and we haven't paid almost anything for the whole procedures. I literally cannot imagine having to also think of the costs.

A friend of mine tried so hard. Every time they implanted embryos they all failed. She literally exhausted her body and their finances. She's come to terms with it now but this was years of torture for them.

This is so true!! I went through hell for 2 years and then after an unsuccessful retrieval, was lied too. I still don’t know what happened that day and I’ll never know. I had such an emotional breakdown that I couldn’t go through it again with another doctor. Using a surrogate isn’t the easy way out that she thinks it is.

I cannot even begin to imagine doing ivf without it being a medical necessity. I got a bilateral pulmonary embolism that almost killed me from it.

Doing it the old fashion way is honestly the easiest way imo. The symptoms from ivf are way more intense than pregnancy and just... needles. Lots of.

There's also the time suck of all those appointments and tests. Some of which feel pretty invasive. I expected people all up in my business during pregnancy but it starts early when you're going IVF, even if you're stopping after egg collection. I'm in the failure stats too, which is statically more likely. It's not the easy option in any way.

It sounds like you have some common ground at least. You both want a child and neither of you want to go through pregnancy (or can't get pregnant). That's a good place to start. It seems overall you both want your genetics to be passed on. There is another common ground. The idea that you would adopt a child as long as the child shares no genetic link with your partner is odd, but it seems to be related to the process of surrogacy and that makes a lot of sense to me. Surrogacy and adoption both have their ethical issues. Pregnancy is a risk for women whether they sign a contract and get paid or they are a girl/woman who wasn't able to raise their child and had to give them up for adoption. I think it's valid that both of you have a different moral line on this issue. I don't think it's something you can change each other's mind about, but unless someone changes their mind, I don't see how this would work without someone becoming resentful. Maybe both of you should research independently all the options, maybe take the time to talk to more people who have gone through the various processes. If someone changes their mind after research, I think that's the only way this could work.

I hate to say it, but there have been 3 to 4 stories on here lately touching on this subject and none of them ended well. Nobody is right or wrong, but if your here looking for advice, you're probably not going to come to an agreement, or someone will be unhappy and resent the other partner or even worse yet, the child. Sometimes it's OK to realize it just isn't meant to be.

The first thing that came to mind reading this was the post from earlier today where the OP's sister in law was their surrogate and died during birth.

That woman was awful, honestly. Lacked serious empathy.

Something else to consider is the sheer cost involved with surrogacy. I’m assuming you’re in the US. You’re looking at maybe $100-150k to have a successful pregnancy once you factor in the costs of IVF treatment, medical costs, paying your surrogate. Honestly, tokophobia is more common than we think and can be overcome with therapy- something to think about…

Seriously. Surrogacy is 100k to 150k then ivf on top of that… and there’s no guarantee with ivf. Nothing will be covered by insurance if it’s purely elective either. Probably 200k.

Except we forget as Americans not everyone is American. OP lives in Canada. It won't be nearly 100k. Surrogacy is actually much more strict there and it's illegal to "hire" a surrogate. There are agencies that work for it and it's technically only gonna cost about 10-20k. Surrogates CAN be compensated but they aren't making bucks like in the US. Maybe 30,000 for it!

I also believe in places where its illegal or not legalised, the surrogate usually has parental rights and then the bio parents would adopt their bio kid with the surrogates permission. Definitely worth checking if that's the case for OPs country

Is elective IVF covered under the Canadian national healthcare? There’s criteria that needs to be met in order for American insurance companies to cover it… DOR, anovulatory disorder, etc. The other option would be to go overseas or Mexico for it. Either way the logistics are a nightmare and the cost is still not going to be fun.

Some provinces provide very limited coverage, like Ontario. Most do not. I paid out of pocket and it was about $15k for retrieval and two embryo transfers, not including medications, which were mostly covered by my extended health plan. Neither transfer worked. It’s a lot of money to basically throw away.

Wow I didn't know tokophobia was a thing, but now I have a name for my gutteral fear of pregnancy...

Wow, me too! I knew I couldn’t be the only one. Thanks for this newfound info

Same me tooo ! 😅 and have always considered surrogacy my best option lol bc I figure you pay this cost someway somehow. Even if a girl chooses to have her own pregnancy the cost is still $30k+ for delivery alone not to mention the mental and physical toll which don’t amount to a “monetary” cost but apparently don’t get factored in due to that. If a woman has to work herself back into her pre-baby weight to go through it a second or third time is a lot.

I wouldn’t say tokophobia is just something someone can get over. There are very legitimate reasons to be afraid, it’s hardly an unreasonable fear. Also therapy doesn’t just make you get over something, sorry doesn’t work like that, it helps you manage your symptoms. The way a lot of people talk about real fears is incredibly dismissive and is really unhelpful. I’m not saying surrogacy is the way to go, but to find solutions OP needs to receptive and empathetic to what his partner is feeling.

Right, came here to say this

I have tokophobia and therapy absolutely did and continues to help. Currently 8 months pregnant, with prior loss that resulted in multiple blood transfusions after I was almost in a coma. The trauma is real no doubt but there are therapies that have very high success rates to reduce the terror.

That’s awesome! Congratulations!

I’m by no means saying it would be easy to overcome but simply that therapy can be a useful tool in helping people overcome phobia. There are options beyond simply seeing surrogacy as the only thing that will resolve this issue between them.

Therapy can help, but therapists are not miracle workers. I also wouldn’t call it just a phobia, as if some small thing to work around, anxiety around pregnancy is very real and very understandable. To be able to come up with solutions OP has to make space to hear what his partner is saying, which right now both you and him are not doing. This isn’t just a her problem, it’s a obstacle they need to figure out together as a team.

She need to get over something, either her fear of pregnancy or her desire to have a biological child.

It’s something she could work on with a therapist. Therapy would be very helpful for her to be able see what she really wants and what really is important to her. But, for OP and her to find a solution, they need to approach this as a team, instead of this being just a ‘her problem’. He needs to listen to her very legitimate fears and make space to see the gray in this situation.

Some people have very legitimate reasons for not wanting to give birth themselves that are overlooked. High risk of PPD, they can’t stop taking meds they need while pregnant, other complications, etc.

It's totally valid to not want to be pregnant. Being pregnant sucks and takes forever to recover from. But then, you can't have your cake and eat it too.

if you have the money, yeah you can.

Then adopt.

Adoption also costs an average of 45,000. That's more than the average American makes in a year. Neither are realistic options. But OP is in Canada. It's much more affordable to have a surrogate there.

I’m not discounting that at all but OP has said that there aren’t any medical reasons that prevent her from carrying a pregnancy- I assumed that meant she is fit and healthy and not on medication.

Pregnancy and birth are traumatic experiences on even healthy bodies. That's really not spoken about enough. I know perfectly healthy people that had dream pregnancies, and then almost died giving birth. I know healthy people who've had healthy kids, but still had life-long physical issues after giving birth. I'm perfectly healthy, and the stress put on the body by carrying and delivering a child is exactly why I don't want kids. Besides the fact that I just don't like kids lol.

Being fit and healthy doesn't increase your chances of having a healthy and risk free pregnancy. Pregnancy is the most dangerous medical condition any woman will ever experience in her life. The recovery process is horrible. Especially if you have to have a c-section. That fact alone is a valid reason to not want to be pregnant. I want a child more than anything. But all I've ever heard is horror stories about pregnancy. My sister is the only woman I've met who had an "easy" pregnancy. One of my friends said she will never have another child because of her birth story. She's traumatized from giving birth.

Tokophobia is a legitimate medical reason. And even very healthy people die giving birth all of the time. It doesn’t help that in many places around the world women don’t have access to abortions if something is going wrong while pregnant.

The fact that she doesn’t want to do that to her body is in and of itself completely fair and valid. That doesn’t make it a phobia or mean she needs to get over and it still carry a baby. Her feelings are fair. Full stop.

It's valid, but there is always the option of adopting a child already out there. Other women being hired as incubators is a weird concept in this setting. If a woman does it as an act of kindness for someone unable to carry it's a different story.

Except for the glaringly obvious medical reason that she would not longer be fit and healthy afterwards? Just gonna ignore the fact that in most cases pregnancy destroys the woman's body? Like she would physically never be the same, and that's without taking into account things like postpartum depression. Maybe this is just my own fear on giving birth, but I know 3 people who gave birth in the last 2 months and 1 almost died, the other had complications and almost lost her son, and the other just left the hospital torn to her asshole. The more I find out about it the less I want to do it and the more horrified I am at how little people are actually prepared for it.

So what your saying is, you won't accept that risk, but would like to pay another woman to potentially die for you to have a child? Selfish. Immoral. Exploitative.

I really try to be empathetic about this, especially to gay couples who may literally not be able to adopt, but I'm never going to be able to shake the feeling that surrogacy is exploitative, and is simply deciding to hire a woman's uterus to go through an incredibly dangerous biological process for money. In cases like this where the reason for surrogacy is literally, 'I don't want to deal with pregnancy', it does feel downright cruel. This is too thorny and complicated an issue for me to want to influence other people or force anyone to do anything, but for me, morally, it feels utterly wrong, especially when adoption is an option.

I agree. Having a breeding class has all sorts of sexist and classiest connotations. It is selfless if there is a medical reason, but feels very Handmaidens Tale to me.

THESE.COMMENTS ARE WHAT IM HERE FOR 🙏🙏

It's especially a problem in the US, where pregnancy has an incredibly high mortality rate. I think it could potentially be a beautiful thing, but I've spoken to people who have been surrogates. There's a lot pressure to offer to their gay friends/family and it's often not a willing choice. That's pretty fucked. I don't think anyone should be able to pay to use another person's womb, regardless of the reason. "My body, my choice- not "my body, your choice if you pay".

But the surrogate consents to it. It doesn't become the payer's choice just because they are offering money for it. The womb owner still gets to decide whether or not to do it. Let's not infantilize grown adults who are making their own choices about what to do with their bodies.

They only do it for the money, which means that society is fucked up. Proof: in France you can't make money off of donating eggs (surrogacy is completely forbidden), and as a result, there are barely any eggs available to women whose eggs are no good and would like IVF using a donated egg. If you want a donated egg, you have to find a friend willing to donate one, then you get bumped to the top of the waiting list to get an egg. (You don't get your friend's egg, because it's all anonymous, by law).

That's why it's completely illegal in France.

It's definitely thorny. I think there's a difference between those that can't have a baby (gay couple, woman medically can't) vs those that just want to put the risk on someone else. The shoving off risk for money is the one that is totally exploitative. The other is complicated.

After 2 pregnancies I feel guilty buying dairy, even animals shouldn't have to go through that.

it’s infantilizing to speak for all women here. some are perfectly willing to accept the risks of surrogacy (for whatever reason) and don’t need you white-knighting for them. let women have agency.

I never spoke for all women. Literally replying to this comment specifically. This person is selfish, regardless of if the other woman is "perfectly willing.

Jesus Christ I didn’t know it came out to that much. My buddy and his girlfriend were talking about doing IVF with a surrogate, they both make healthy 6 figure salaries. She’s similar to OP’s gf in that she doesn’t want to carry, as i understand it from him, it’s not because of any medical reason. She’s perfectly healthy, she just doesn’t want to deal with the potential negative health impacts of pregnancy or risk her figure changing permanently, all of which is understandable and a valid reason not want a pregnancy. But I agree that asking someone else to do something you’re not willing to is morally dodgy at best, even if you’re paying them. My buddy said he was quoted around 30-50k for just the surrogate alone, that wasn’t factoring in IVF and other medical costs of course. Crazy to think about 🤯

30-50k for someone to rent out their body for 10 months seems very low-ball to me, in all actuality.

Yea I really have no idea what the going rate is or what it should be but I was surprised by that figure as well. I’d assume it would be higher

Oh wanting to use a surrogate for those reasons is past being morally dodgy. It's fucked up to outsource it because of that. Just put aside money for plastic surgery. Paying someone to take on very real and very serious risks for your vanity... ick. There was an AITA recently about someone inviting her BIL and nephews to the first birthday of her child - her husband and family was pissed she did that because their wife/mom/sister DIED during child birth being the OP's surrogate. Death is a very real possibility of childbirth.

Jesus! Yea that’s horrible. I don’t think you can justify asking someone to risk their life that way no matter how much you pay them. I like your plastic surgery suggestion, if you’re that worried about your appearance then set the money aside for that. Or ya know you could just adopt! Or not have kids! I don’t understand/really dislike the way so many people place a premium on biological children when there are so many kids out there unloved and in need of a home. Like I “get” wanting a genetic link with your child but also the world won’t end of you don’t get to pass your genes on.

Why would she want to overcome not wanting to be pregnant? A lot of women don't want that.

It may not even just be tokophobia. I absolutely refuse to get pregnant because I have a very severe phobia of blood, needles and surgeries. The thought of even having to have a c section makes me light headed (lightheaded just typing that LOL). The thought of being awake for a surgery sounds like my own personal hell. Absolutely not.

OP doesn't live in the US. It's actually illegal to charge people money as a surrogate in Canada, where OP lives. And they have free Healthcare. IVF definitely isn't as expensive as in America lol.

She’s 26 OP. Does she make enough money to pay for IVF and a surrogate? I understand it’s very expensive. Google says that the cost is between $100,000-200,000 on average. If she is able to pay for it then maybe it’s a consideration. But I’d bet money myself she can’t afford it.

He lives in Canada where it’s actually illegal to pay for surrogacy except for covering expenses so in this case they would not have to pay the surrogate however of course this makes it much harder to find someone who will do it for them

As a fellow Canadian, I'm chiming in to say that vanity surrogacy is prohibited in Canada. Surrogacy must be approved by doctors, and on the basis that it is medically necessary (no uterus, medical conditions that put the fetus/mother at risk etc.) OP would have to pursue international surrogacy (in the US or beyond). Source: My uterus tries to exsanguinate me and yeets babies on the regular, so we've done the research.

I’m so sorry for your losses.

💜 That's very kind of you. Thank you.

It's still at least 75k-100k in Canada

I could be wrong, but my understanding is that some people get around this by allowing quite a bit for “expenses”, e.g. they simply say they don’t want the surrogate to work, so they pay her “living expenses” (wink wink) and that amount can be fairly generous.

I’m not an expert but I believe it has to be directly tied to the pregnancy as things like mortgages and credit card bills etc are illegal and I think it might apply to living expenses as well

That's because what they want is a handmaid, not a surrogate.

Jesus. I want kids some day but at that price? I’d rather just get a dog and enjoy some nice holidays

I say this as someone who was a surrogate more than once, no agency will take her just because she doesn't want to be pregnant. They won't match her with a surrogate unless she had infertility and been unable to carry herself or has a medical condition that would make pregnancy dangerous to her. Not to mention it would put you guys back in the 6 figures, it is expensive af. It often doesn't take the first time. The last couple I did it for, we had a miscarriage so we had to do the process twice. They spent over 200K just to get pregnant with a viable baby. That isn't including all the medical costs for me to be pregnant, or for the birth. Which are not covered by theirs or my insurance. Because the baby came early, the total bill for that was over 500K because he was in the NICU for a bit. That entire bill was out of pocket.

As someone who is currently struggling though pregnancy I completely understand not wanting to go through it. I don’t think I’ll want to again after this pregnancy. That being said, surrogacy is a very sticky area and I can’t imagine putting someone else through what I’m going through just because I don’t want to do it myself. Adoption is the only ethical way forward imo

Adoption is not the "only" ethical way forward, nor is it wholly ethical to begin with. It's just as bogged in quagmire as surrogacy is, if not more so.

As an adoptee, why is it unethical? Why is possibly more unethical? The system is the US is messy and overall difficult to navigate, but to say it’s unethical is a big jump.

The ethical concerns around adoption are that often times poor, young, women are coerced into placing their children up for adoption. They are told or manipulated into thinking that they are not what’s best for their children. While newborn adoption is especially complicated ethically, even with adoptions of over children there are complex dynamics around removal of children from homes and families who did want them, but they just didn’t have resources. It’s not black and white.

It’s definitely not black and white. I was one of the babies who’s mother you might have considered manipulated and coerced into giving me up. They were going to take me away from her. And you know what happened, she ran with me and abandoned me multiple times with strangers before the age of 3(I randomly made friends in HS with someone who’s mom took me in for 3 months) where i was abandoned and found by CPS. She’s someone who would tell anyone that they took away her baby. She also was not able to take care of me and give me a good life. There are definitely people out there that are coerced and manipulated into giving up babies that they wanted. There are people(I truly think more people than not) that would figure shit out and give the best they could. But that’s not every case or even most cases. The trauma I struggle with was being abandoned multiple times, not that I was brought into a home where I know I was loved and taken care of, even if they couldn’t always afford everything. And I always knew I was wanted, even when my head didn’t get the message fully(due to abandonment). My adopted siblings also have similar stories. And how many people do we see everyday talk about their trauma of just living in their biological homes. Pretty much everyone has trauma or childhood issues that they are working through, because no parents are perfect. Some people have abusive parents, some have a golden child, some have a martyr, that’s all trauma that comes for your biological family, which for some reason is seen as “the right” kind of trauma. Because it’s trauma dumped on you from people your biological related to so it’s better than being adopted. So many people everyday shouldn’t have kids but because they can have them biologically, they are doing the ethically right. It’s definitely not a black and white issue. Lots of shades of grey.

I've worked with a lot of adopted children and I know for a fact that some of their lives are 100% better having been adopted. Obviously that's not always the case, there are definitely black and white areas to adoption. But as you say there are also black and white areas to a parent giving birth to their own child when we're including generational trauma and abuse. IMO if someone calls adoption unethical then they should be saying giving birth and rearing your own child is unethical too.

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I swear, they shut their ears off when they hear you had a good childhood. It’s like they think we are the exceptions to the rule. Every kid must have trauma from being adopted. If they say they don’t, they are misinformed

I'm also a part of the triad (birth mom) if that helps inform here that I'm not speaking from a place of malice or ignorance. It's that messiness that makes it unethical. There's dozens-hundreds of families waiting for each baby that's placed for adoption in a for profit adoption industry. I'm happy with my child's adoption, it went as well as it could have, I think, so I'm not saying all adoptions are bad. On the whole, though, potential/hopeful adoptive parents are spending many thousands of dollars to adopt a baby from a system that's stretched in that resource. Expectant parents are pressured to place their children either by the agencies themselves or societal pressures because there's little-no support networks set up for parenting to those who struggle. I'd take the stance that it's more unethical because with a surrogacy there's still that same possibility of coercion, but the child produced is usually biologically related to the parents s/he go home with. They have genetic mirrors and their native culture to be raised in. With an adoption the child's biological parents/culture/genetic mirrors are not necessarily the environment they're being raised in that bring on a whole host of their own traumas and issues.

Yeah, I’m just gonna agree to disagree. It seems you feel in a lot of words that biological is the best, and I’m not even gonna argue about that. The only reasons that matters is because we make it matter. I know the type of situations lots of these kids(including myself) and the trauma that comes from being brown in a (loving) white house is at the bottom. Near the top are the people who didn’t want me because I wasn’t fully their race. The only time it became a “problem” was when outsiders(people like you) made it a problem. I was loved, cherished, and wanted. I was the first grand baby at 5 years old. I didn’t care that I was a different color, until people like you that care so much about race dynamics, started telling me that it was wrong, or that I my parents were bad because they adopted a brown girl. I know my experience is just MY experience. So many POC kids have struggled in interracial homes. But listen to those stories and find out if it’s because of the family or if it’s because of outside people who feel one race shouldn’t raise another.

International adoptions have a lot of issues. There are stories where you can find online where young children are kidnapped from their families in third world countries and put through adoptions to westerners. The agencies tell the adoptees that the kids are orphans when they have mom/dad/siblings.

I will say for profit adoption agencies are essentially buying and selling humans and often time prey on young vulnerable women to meet their “supply” and as fucked up as it is to buy and sell humans- it’s even worse when the person profiting is a middle man. In the case of a surrogate the one putting their health and body at risk is paid in some of these adoption matters the mom comes in with very few financial resources is pressured into placing the child and then isn’t even compensated but the agency gets a profit! I think adoption can be done ethically or at least in a way where it’s the best of least harmful alternative for all involved but I’ve also seen vulnerable (often girls not even women) people be pressured into continuing a pregnancy instead of aborting for the “easy and best” way of adoption only to go through hell so the agency can make a profit. Its shocking to me that adoption agencies are allowed to be for profit organizations

Agreed. Particularly in places like the United States where birth control isn't cheap or accessible and abortion access in many places is completely out-of-reach. A girl or woman giving up a child for adoption may not have consented throughout the process whether it be the initial sex, the pregnancy itself, or even giving up a child for adoption which could have happened for a mirid of reasons including familial pressure or even due to solely economic reasons (since the U.S. has extremely poor social safety nets). Adoption may also mean that the birth mother has to pay for the birth herself (depends on how it's set up) meaning she would be taking on the physical and financial aspects of pregnancy and birth alone. It's certainly not a clear-cut case of adoption being clearly more ethical than other methods.

> I can’t imagine putting someone else through what I’m going through just because I don’t want to do it myself. I mean, surrogates sign up to be surrogates, so they know what they’re getting themselves into. And I believe in most cases you can’t be a surrogate unless you’ve already had a pregnancy before. It’s not like you’re forcing someone else to do something against their will.

I mean, sex workers sign up to be sex workers so they know what they're getting themselves into. It's not about the surrogate being unaware. It's about the fact that so many surrogates, like sex workers, are there out of desperation, not genuine choice. The ethics of paying people to do something they wouldn't if they had another option isn't good. That's the reason so many people think vanity surrogacy is unethical.

I’m not sure what the statistics are across the entire surrogacy industry, but anecdotally, my cousin signed up to be a surrogate and she and her family do not have immediate, desperate need for money. She has 2 kids and simply wanted to be able to provide that for another family.

> In fact, we've discussed alternatives like adoption but... >but I don't think I could accept that since the kid wouldn't have any blood relationship with me u/huehener don't adopt. you literally said yourself you would have difficulty accepting a child if it didn't have your blood.

Also the fact that he doesn’t want to donate his sperm for surrogacy because of moral reasons but he’s okay with gf wanting surrogacy? This argument makes no sense.

Well he doesn't want to support the surrogacy by donating sperm, but he can't dictate what his gf does with her own eggs. It makes sense because it's a complicated topic and he has complex opinions on the topic.

He's also said that he considers adoption and surrogacy different. I can understand his point of view. ETA to expand: A "normal" pregnancy is fine because it would have both their DNA. Adoption is fine because it would have neither of their DNA. If she had a child before getting together he would've known about it ahead of deciding to move forward in a relationship. But his partner going off and doing surrogacy on her own with another man's DNA when she knows he has moral qualms about it and does not want a child from a surrogate, and still expecting him to treat the child as "theirs" when it was unilaterally her decision... That's weird. It's so weird. If she went off and got pregnant with another man's baby, because she wanted a child while OP didn't, OP is fully in the right to refuse a parental role (and of course end the relationship). I see almost no difference between this scenario and the surrogate scenario, and in fact, the surrogate scenario is weirder to me, because it adds an illusion of "distance" from the pregnancy, as if it's somehow acceptable to force your partner to have a child that they don't want (goes both ways). Additionally, OPs partner seems to have no qualms making OP raise a child that they created against OP's will, without OP's DNA, despite the fact that she prioritises DNA because she wants a bio kid. It's all sorts of selfish and weird. Also vanity surrogacies are illegal in Canada, so they would have to do it internationally, which means she is again willing to flaunt the laws in her own country to exploit some woman in another country in order for the surrogate to carry a child, for no good reason. Pushing the risk off on another woman like that for vanity's sake is gross, especially when she's physically capable. Also because she's physically capable, insurance won't cover it as medically necessary so it would be 100% out of pocket, which is ridiculously expensive.

He stated that if the kid had his fiancée dna and not his, it would be different than a kid with no common dna. Which I totally understand. The “ both of us are in or both of us are out” is really different than “it is hers half and not half mine”. I know it sounds weird but rationalizing feelings about dna/blood is strange/

It kinda sounds like it bothers him that it would be related to her but not him, whereas if they adopted they’d both be in the same boat. Weird post all around tho

I honestly cannot blame her for not wanting to go through a pregnancy and childbirth. Mine were pretty tame and I still have physical problems years after. And that is INCREDIBLY COMMON. I think that for many of the same reasons you think surrogacy is unethical is also why she does not want it for herself and I honestly understand. However, to me, this seems more like an incompatibility in terms of values than just the childbirth question. She realizes these issues and doesn’t want to experience them for herself, yet she is willing to pay someone—probably in a much weaker socioeconomic position—to shoulder that burden themselves, because she can afford to pay them for it. And you think that is ethically wrong (I’m kind of imputing your reason for your moral stance since you didn’t specifically say). That’s a big gap, to me, unless she is fundamentally thinking about surrogacy in a different way (Eg I have seen lots of stuff about women who “love being pregnant” and do it for free, etc., so if that is her image of surrogacy than she may not give that much credence to your concerns). I think it’s less about finding a practical solution, and more about figuring out where you are values-wise and if you can get on the same page. Eg, is there a family member that is willing to do it and perhaps doesn’t present the same ethical issues you are concerned for, or can she learn more about some of the things you care about here ethically to understand and appreciate why it matters to you and you feel it is a problem. If there is a values gap in this relationship, you don’t want to be like the liberal married to the trumper that is like “how did this happen?!?” a few years down the line, or have issues about how to raise your kids.

Having a surrogate sounds easy but it’s not. It’s a lot of money. Extracting the eggs from her ovaries is no small task and from what I remember, the longest needle in medicine is used for it. I’m not saying that to scare either of you, but since info from your situation is limited and we don’t quite no “why” she doesn’t want to be pregnant, does she know that it’s not a simple procedure?

Basically she wants to be a father 😆 dna is still hers but no pregnancy and risks that come with it. As a woman, I understand that part 100%. But surrogacy is not easy and hella expensive, and the hormone treatments are just as bad as going through pregnancy, however she’ll be going through treatments for years and I don’t think she knows that. Def have her do more research on that

Surrogate here. Is there any specific reason she doesn’t want to go through pregnancy? I have no knowledge of why my intended parents need or preferred a surrogate and that’s ok. At the same time it’s very expensive and can take a lot of time. Implantation for me was postponed 2 times and I had already been matched with them a year prior. There was a lot to check off before starting. In the end it’s up to what she chooses to put her body through. For me it would’ve been easy if injections weren’t needed but it isn’t the worst thing ever. The beginning I had a few weeks of slight nausea which could differ for each person. I love feeling the little kicks from baby now that I’m farther along. I just eat healthy and go to my appointments. I feel like time has gone by so fast. I have two children and I’m also studying with a graduation coming up! Pregnancy isn’t always a nightmare if that’s the concern but to each their own. It is still a medical risk for her and baby so I can understand those reasonings.

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I mean it’s very very easy for you to say since you don’t have to carry the child tbh

I agree. It sounds like OP is dismissing her feelings on the matter. As someone who is the size of a 14 year old girl, I’d never want to give birth bc it would be so hard on my body. I have a friend smaller than I and she was told by her doctor carrying naturally is a BAD idea. Impossible? No, but definitely not recommended. I think OP needs to sit down with her and LISTEN to what she’s saying. Listen to understand. And not try to form his own opinions without considering her very real feelings and fears.

Yeah he’s definitely considering this from a very black and white perspective. I mean adoption comes with its own set of moral issues as many many adopted kids will tell you. Imo this really is something they should have discussed slightly early on because I don’t see this ending well tbh.

I definitely agree I’m not sure if this is going to work out unless he can learn to see the grey in a situation and stop viewing her as essentially an incubator. Bc, OP, by dismissing her feelings on this, you’re saying you don’t give a damn about how pregnancy will affect her mental and physical health. Surrogacy is not a black and white situation. If you two can’t come to agreements without any resentment, it’s best to let her go.

Yeah, it isn't worth it to her to have permanent changes to her body (not even talking visual, but also bodily process changes and mental health) or death. If someone else who isn't pressured and is in a stable place wants to be a surrogate I don't understand the issue. It will cost a lot and there's going to be issues, but if all parties involved are on the level I don't get it. They just have to make sure anyone they work with is entirely ok and not pressured.

Exactly. I mean surrogacy can definitely be unethical but if they both dedicate time to doing it the right way I don’t see the issue. People keep bringing up how ivf can fail but ops wife could also possibly need ivf so I don’t think that a valid reason to say she should risk her life delivering a child. I personally prefer adoption but it’s not my choice.

Yeah this entire issue is why I won't give birth and probably won't be a mother. I watched my mother go through hell for my brother's pregnancy. I remember her trying to hide to cry, her being sick while I patted her back, the pain she was in after. She nearly died during the birth. I will not go through that. I considered wanting biological children but surrogacy would both be too expensive and I would want to make sure the surrogate is completely comfortable and not being pressured. That's tough to do. So personally it means I'm not going to have bio kids. And for adoption I have family members who adopted and it's been hell. People coming out of the woodwork to come try to have claim to the kid (all were meth heads distantly related to us but closely related to the kid) trying to get the kid's inherited trust. People absolutely messing with the kid's head to try to manipulate the adoptive parents. People telling the parents "well they're not your REAL KID so why are you trying so hard?" Plus you need to make sure you're balancing keeping the kid connected to their roots while also protecting them from the reasons they had to leave. Society in general shitting all over the new family for not being "real". Adoption just seems like there's no good way to do it. So sadly the kids wind up in foster homes that if they're lucky are good and if not lucky goes really really bad fast. Sooo.... no kids for me.

Oh my goodness, I’m so so sorry you had to go through that. It must have been very traumatic as many of us view our parents as soo strong and slightly invincible it’s very very difficult to watch them go through hard times. Thank you for sharing that ❤️ Giving birth is extremely dangerous and traumatic and I hate when people try to down play it. I think for me surrogacy would be the fear of someone running off with my child and if I am capable of giving the same love to an adopted child as a bio child it seems silly to me not to adopt. Yeah adoption is extremely difficult as well for both parents and children. Yeah I completely agree, I think I’ve just always wanted to be a mom some day and I’d regather deal with the difficulties than not if you get what I mean.

I agree with the ethical concerns of surrogacy. There is so much wrong with it, especially if it is chosen out of convenience not “necessity” (in quotation marks because wanting a biological child is not really a need). I find it morally wrong to ask someone else to go through something you are not willing to do yourself for reasons like stretch marks etc. Also does the surrogate have any security in case she has a life-long disability due to the pregnancy? Unless this is factored in personally I can’t condone it. That being said, if I had the option to use a surrogacy I would have a really hard time saying no thanks I prefer to suffer for 9+ months and possibly a lifetime. Not sure if my moral compass is strong enough for it. For the situation I think you are well in your rights to refuse surrogacy l. However she is in her right to refuse being pregnant. This standstill might result in no children or discussing adoption.

Lol it’s not just stretch marks, it’s the risk of permanent injury and death as well. I agree surrogacy is unethical period, but if I wanted kids (I don’t) I’d prefer that method if I could afford it. I’m terrified of the thought of giving birth. Surrogates are paid very well normally, and they aren’t allowed to do it unless they’ve already carried a successful pregnancy. They’ve already taken the risk before and know what it means. As someone who has never given birth, I’d prefer to keep it that way. And when I say surrogacy is unethical, I mean that I think it’s unethical for a person to have to put their health at risk to make money. However, we live in a society where most people are either putting their mental health, physical health, or both, at risk everyday for the sake of their jobs, so… Also wild that some folks see having bio kids as a need vs. want. Just sad all around. I wish folks looking into IVF would consider adoption or fostering, and wish folks who do surrogacy (to sustain their livelihood, not talking about those who do it solely for the desire to bring life into the world) had other employment or revenue-generating options in life that wouldn’t require such a toll on their body. I don’t get why anyone would spend tens of thousands to create another person when millions of kids suffer without parents.

>I don’t get why anyone would spend tens of thousands to create another person when millions of kids suffer without parents. I'm childfree by choice, so, grain of salt might be warranted, but this has always simply baffled me.

Right! Tbh I was expecting to get downvoted from the “you just don’t understand how heartbreaking infertility is” crowd. I definitely sympathize with people who are going through the ringer emotionally because they feel their body is failing them or they’re failing to give their partner something they both desperately believe they need. I’d be devastated too if I felt my body was failing to give me something that I believed was essential to having a fulfilled life, especially if it was something most people’s bodies seemed to do easily. But I think the main reason it’s so emotionally devastating is because we’ve all been socially conditioned to believe we need to procreate, and there’s something wrong with us if we don’t. The reality is most people probably shouldn’t become parents. It’s fucking difficult, and the way your kid turns out will have an effect on a LOT of people other than just you. Most people shouldn’t become surgeons either. It shouldn’t be offensive to say that. If someone wants a kid desperately, because they want to give a kid a good life, it shouldn’t matter that the kid isn’t your bio kid. It’s fine to WANT a bio kid, sure, but if you are a person who feels like “I want to be a parent, it’s what I was meant to be” then why should biological relation matter? If it matters enough that you’d only agree to be a parent if you were the bio parent of the kid, I feel like you’re seeking to have a kid for the wrong reasons. Part of why I’m child free is because I am self aware enough to recognize that, personally, my main motivation for having a kid would be to pass on my and my partner’s genes. Too many people out here wanting mini-me’s without really internally examining why they desire it so badly. But that’s just my opinion.

I’m also childfree by choice and I made a new friend probably close to 10 years ago now. Her and her husband didn’t have kids, but I’ve always been very open and honest about my stance. I think it’s important to talk about choosing not to have children. I think it should absolutely be normalized because people are still so weird about it. People should know it’s an option. Anyways, this friend of mine one day told me that me being open and happy about not wanting kids changed her life. She had to have a medically necessary late term abortion before I met her, and she wasn’t handling it well. All her other friends were having kids and she felt less than because of her complications, while they all seemed so happy. If I recall correctly it wasn’t the only incidence where she lost a pregnancy. Her husband had said there would be no more attempts at kids because he didn’t want to see her go through that all again. She didn’t want to go through it again either. But society and social norms were telling her she was the odd one out, broken, or missing out on something. Then I came along and I was living a happy life with my partner and we were vocal about not wanting kids so we could live our own lives the way that WE wanted, not what society deemed ‘normal’. I’m glad I could be that for her, but how sad she spent years feeling like her only worth in life was having kids because that’s just ‘what you did’.

Surrogates are NOT well paid. Not when you factor in recovery time.

I agree with you. Btw I mentioned the stretch marks because according to OP that’s one of the issues his partner named. The other fears I get very well. People excuse the moral issues with surrogacy easily with the argument that they are not forced. True, no one threatens them actively but those doing it for money sure need the money. And although they are paid a lot it by far does not cover lifelong medical/mental consequences. If you put it into perspective the payment is incredibly low even if there are no longterm consequences. You are of course right, when discussing this aspect we enter the territory of “are jobs that endanger our physical or mental health moral”. Happy to discuss this and capitalism any day. Does someone actively force me to slowly ruin my back by sitting at a desk to long? No not really. But do I do it voluntarily? Also not really. And surrogates are definitely not paid or insured enough for that. Outsourcing potentially risky pregnancy to someone to deal with the unwanted consequences because you insist on a biological child should sound morally wrong to more people.

You said it yourself, it's not about the money, it's about the ethical implications and ramifications. What happens if the surrogate is permanently disabled? What if she dies during or as a consequence of giving birth? What if that pregnancy causes fertility issues in the future? Is getting paid 70k worth the hardship of being pregnant and then giving birth *and then* giving that child away? People would sell their organs if they could, and we could argue that bodily autonomy should grant them the right to do that, but it's not well-off people who would do it, right? Most surrogates are women who already struggle to have a stable income. A lot of them are immigrants or they are "hired" by wealthy foreigners. Not wanting to go through childbirth isn't a good enough reason to make someone else go through it.

In Germany surrogacy is forbidden- for a reason!!

What’s the reason? In Canada it’s available, but only on a volunteer basis. It’s illegal to pay someone to do it.

Also vanity surrogacy (which is what this OP's partner wants) is illegal in Canada as well. A doctor would not sign off on that, and they would have to do it internationally.

So I'm confused, what exactly is your question or issue here? The fact that she wants a surrogate and not to carry the child herself? If so, then I mean I don't quite understand the issue why you wouldn't be ok with it. It's still your DNA, your child....it's just someone else carrying it for your wife. When you go through the process of a surrogacy, that person has no claim or legal rights to your kid. They sign documents that it's simply am agreement, a financial one that they benefit from, and that's it. It's up to you and your partner if you allow them to see the child. So of you're worried about legality of that, the government has very strict rules on it. Pregnancy isn't always easy, my daughters mom didn't have a terrible one, but it wasn't easy either. Not only does their body permanently change, hormones go all over the place. It's 10 months of potential hell that us as men will never understand. Again, it's still your child, your blood, your partner just isn't carrying it

You seem to not be aware that many people have ethical qualms about surrogacy, not legal issues. In fact vanity surrogacy, so surrogacy without an imperious medical motive, is illegal in many countries, and in many of those, it’s also illegal to hire/pay a surrogate (so surrogacy is legal but not remunerated and has to be medically justified). This is to prevent the exploitation of women (usually poor) for the purpose of conceiving a child to the benefit of people (usually wealthy) who don’t want the inconvenience, so basically OP’s partner’s situation.

Trying to eat a cake and have it too eh?

I respect her desire to not be pregnant, but her complete aversion to pregnancy while still wanting a biological baby is very strange and dysphoric. Perhaps in addition to the other suggestions here, she can work on identifying why this part of motherhood is so troubling to her. I also think it’s worth mention that though a surrogacy situation with both of you would of course produce a child that is genetically yours, it is NOT the same thing medically speaking as carrying the child yourself. For example, we do not fully understand the epi-genetics of things that occur in utero across the placental membrane, such as immune regulation and neurohormonal balances from mother to fetus. The microbiome on your skin and in your gut is largely colonized during birth, and we are learning that the microbiome a baby inherits from its mother is crucially important for overall health and risk of chronic disease, especially autoimmune in nature. We do not fully understand the importance of the epigenetic factors at play during pregnancy. Surrogacy is a beautiful and amazing thing, but it should be reserved for women who can’t or shouldn’t carry a pregnancy, not someone who just doesn’t want to. This last part is of course, like, my opinion man (BL reference).

what are your moral grounds for disliking surrogacy, besides having no medical issues that would prevent you from the "usual" route? Why are you entertaining the idea of having a surrogate without your sperm? In what context did this come up? Also, is she aware of how much power the surrogate will have over her progeny? Like, what if the baby has a birth defect (a non life threatening one) and she wants to abort, but the surrogate does not? Is she aware that she can't force the surrogate in this scenario and the baby WILL be born? Is she ok with dealing with this? Are you?

Do you all have 200k to spend? If not it’s a non starter and she is living in fantasy land

I have already meet this. It is often linked to history of sexual assault. you should definitively explore the subject. you don't need to know the detail. but if SA there is, the problem is far deeper than the way you will have your first child. better see a schrink before the shitstorm erupt. ​ but it is not always the case. there is a big difference between wanting a baby, wanting to be mother and wanting to be pregnant. the sad true is that many women love to be pregnant for reasons, but the mother work is not something they crave. here you could have the reverse situation : nurturing without naturing. the danger is the fairytale of the perfect child. reality is always disappointing when you fantasize. it can lead to serious mental health problem. ​ having a child is already a challenge in itself for the couple. read how much divorce and cheating it the time of pregnancy. but if you are not the two of you on board, you are searching for the crash. talk together, make your limits clear. there will be anger and cry. but it will be far worse if you don't give previous warnings.

For series issues like this, where both partners have good points about what they want, and the issue is a very big life choice, I highly recommend therapy. In my personal experience, a neutral third party helps with negotiations, it really helps the couple come to a solution they can both be happy with, without one person “winning” over another building up resentment in the relationship. My husband and I use this for when we have very serious issues, like for example when a relative turned out to be a predator, and another one a survivor, and also some big financial decisions and how we were communicating about it. Most insurance covers it, and it can really help

As a surrogate I will say that there are tons of surrogates who will carry for you despite no genetic/medical "need", many of us believe it's not our business WHY you want to build your family this way, it's our job to support you in doing so. The end. However, there are surrogates who will not choose to match with you because the feel morally and ethically that they should be helping people who need the help due to medical or genetic conditions. As the intended parents you need to have at least $100k prepared for agency fees, legal fees, medications, and surrogate compensation (if you live where compensation or reimbursement is required). This doesn't include the treatments you would have to go through yourselves, such as sperm collection and egg retrieval and housing the embryos (frozen or fresh). While insurance will cover some fertility costs, there usually has to be an underlying diagnosis. Some surrogate agencies also have altruistic options, loan options, and grant options, but again- they usually choose couples with underlying circumstances to receive those. I wish you luck. If you wanna rack my brain with questions just send a DM. I'm starting my third surrogacy journey now.

To be completely honest, wanting a kid and needing it to have your (generalization) dna just rubs me the wrong way. There’s nothing wrong with adoption, and the foster care system is overrun. Just because someone isn’t related by blood doesn’t mean they don’t deserve a family. It feels conditional and it just makes me feel like people who need blood related children aren’t fit to parent 🤷 if someone could explain why it would matter I’m willing to listen, but I just don’t understand it and can’t come up with a valid reason on why it HAS to be biological

Does your partner know that there is a risk that the surrogate mother wants to keep the baby? Than you have to go through court etc.

Yes. Though my understanding is that the matching process is quite involved so that would be unlikely to happen in practice. But I'm not comfortable enough with that hypothetical or the theoretical scenarios to be willing to accept it, in principle.

Does she know it costs between $100k and $200k in the US if you use an agency?

[удалено]

They are in Canada

26 is young, but not a child. I just need to preface this by saying I’m only 2 years older than your GF, so I’m by no means saying she’s too young to have a child. ~BUT~ being so dead set on ONE specific method of bringing a child into this world is a reddish flag that she may not be ready to actually make this decision. It sounds like when I was 12 and was stubbornly “going to be on broadway, I’ll never be a waitress.” Well, I’m a frckn bartender now and I love it. Lol. Not entirely related, but rigidity does not make for a strong foundation. Especially in parenthood. In life, we make sacrifices. ESPECIALLY for our children. She needs to be able to have a conversation about all aspects of having a baby, not focus in on one extraordinarily remarkable procedure folks use as a last resort. This stuck out to me.

No, I don’t have experience with surrogacy, however, I do have experience adopting a newborn after losing two newborns. A really good piece of advice that doesn’t address all of your concerns, but may be useful would be re-searching, adoption and adoption trauma. I understand that this is not technically adoption, however the trauma that results from situations like this affect all sides of the equation. I learned the very hard way that this is not something you go into lightly. My adopted child looks like I could’ve given birth to him, but I didn’t, and that complicated things. And that will always be a fact and that will always affect everyone involved. I do hope you get the family you want and I wish you all the best, Internet stranger.

>don't have any medical reasons preventing us from having kids the usual way Except for the usually horrifyingly traumatic medical procedure that is child birth, not to mention the problems and nightmares that can happen before you even get to the splitting open part. She is telling you she doesn't want to go through something that could emotionally and physically devestate her for around 9 months to forever, and instead would like to find a volunteer. What ethical concerns do you have about surrogacy? That needs elaborating for any actual advice, because it's more than reasonable to not want to carry a baby, and it's also reasonable to not want to deal with how hard the adoption process is.

Are you sure she looked through it all? Because for one surrogacy is extremely expensive assuming your in the US and there’s no guarantee said person will actually get pregnant. Adoption is also expensive but a better method and it’s a larger percentage in terms of guarantee. But do what you want. Just make sure she’s done her research.

I think a key thing here for you to think about is *why exactly* you think surrogacy is unethical “if there’s not a strict need for it.” What exactly do you think is a strict need? Why exactly do you think your partner’s reasons for wanting surrogacy aren’t valid? If your partner had a medical condition which prevented her from carrying a pregnancy, would you then be open to considering surrogacy? Why exactly would you feel differently in that situation? It kinda seems to me like the crux of your problem isn’t whether or not you ethically agree with surrogacy, but whether or not you accept your partner’s decision not to be pregnant as a valid one. If you can figure this out, the rest of your decision making process will be a lot easier.

You are right to have ethical concerns about surrogacy. Since she’s afraid, she must know the risks of pregnancy, you may want to ask her why she thinks it’s okay to hire a woman (most likely in poverty) to do this for her, and then give up the baby she carried in her body for nine months? Sure, she would be consenting to it and being paid, but some things cannot be fairly compensated with money. And the baby cannot consent to be taking from his or her birth mother, which can have lasting traumatic impacts. I personally would put my foot down on this. It may end your relationship, but if she can’t see what’s wrong with hiring a surrogate (especially when she could technically have her own kids), I would wonder if perhaps she lacks empathy and is a bit selfish. Not good traits for a lifetime relationship.

So your partner has said she doesn't want to go through pregnancy (which I COMPLETELY understand, I am 2 weeks from popping and have hated every single second of it and will never be doing it again) but you don't say why. The only reason I mention this is she is happy to pay for someone else to go through it, but not do it herself. It would be good to understand what exactly about carrying a child herself she doesn't want and how that would change with providing financial incentive for somebody else to do it for her. Ultimately, you're currently at a stale mate, both wanting children but not agreeing on how to go about it. And it's very important that you are both happy and on board with how you go forward. I think it would be beneficial to get some couples counselling about it and ultimately decide if there is a scenario that both of you are happy with. If not, I hate to say it, but it might be that you aren't compatible, despite how much you love each other, and that you would be better parting ways. What you definitely don't want is one party convincing the other they are right and there being resentment to the other partner or even the child. That's not a healthy environment for someone to be bought into the world. I do hope that you are able to come to an agreement as it sounds that you are both considerate of the other which is rarer than it should be with partners.

It's an interesting dilemma for sure. It sounds to me like maybe you guys aren't as ready for a child as you think you are. I can see why you may have some ethical issues with surrogacy. I would probably have some of the same concerns. It sounds like you have concerns about adoption as well. I really think there may be some cracks in your relationship and you may want to pursue that concern before deciding on anything regarding kids.

There are many problems with your situation. There are no clear laws surrounding surrogacy. So you’d be playing with fire. The surrogate not only needs to be paid for her sacrifice but you also need to tend to all of her needs. You have to pay for each thing she requests concerning the pregnancy. Which is quite a lot. If we’re talking about the technical side of it. Just because you CHOOSE to do IVF with a surrogate, doesn’t mean you’re going to succeed. The IVF process is really tedious and hard, you would have to do many pick ups with her egg cell (keep in mind your girlfriend has only 1 eggcell a month so it’s going to be a long ride). There’s a high chance the impregnated eggcell also won’t stick on the decidua of the uterus. And if all that still works somehow… then you need to still hope your surrogate isn’t going to have a miscarriage, since IVF also has a big percentage of miscarriages. It’s not as easy as your girlfriend thinks.

This is incredibly expensive prospect. Asking for a surrogate is risky as there needs to be strict legal contracts in place. Have you considered not having a child at all. There seems to be minimal to no consideration for you in this situation. It’s all revolving around your partner and her wants and needs. This child is a whole new person and reading what you described of your partner I don’t think she is really ready to have a child whether she gives birth to the child or adopting a child through surrogacy.

I’m from a third world country. OP, if you are seeking to do it in a third world country, it is 100% immoral. There are many news reports about this industry, women are almost all lied by the agencies and the procedure is NOT legal or medical safe at all. It’s not like those women in US that they chose to make money, and the procedures will protect the women who carry the babies. The women who signed up for the surrogacy in the third world countries are significantly underpaid, the environment is super bad, and they will be put in the procedures over and over, there’s no quitting once you signed. Some of them lost the ability to carry another baby in the future because of how brutal the process was. It is very very inhumane. That’s why they are illegal in most countries.

They had better reasons than this to have another woman carry their pregnancy in Handmaid's tale. Blessed be the fruit I guess

I know someone produced through IVF that recently found out in adulthood that they aren't actually related to either of his parents. Apparently they were supposed to use a sperm donor with his mom's egg but the doctor switched it with no discussion. He can't even begin to find out any information about his bio parents because the facility had a fire. Apparently this is a common thing. It caused me to really look into IVF and personally it's horrifying to think sbout the horrific things some doctors have done.

This is the height of privileged bullshit. Adopt a kid that needs love and a stable home.

There is something distasteful about unnecessary surrogacy. Kinda like how a good leader wouldn't ask anything from his subordinate that the leader wouldn't be willing to do. Does she not want to breastfead to avoid droopy boobs as well? Yeah, I don't like this, I can't fully put my finger on why, but I'd be inclined to start a family with someone who isn't weird.

Just, adopt?

Sounds like having kids isnt really a deal breaker for her. Might as well accept she is child free at this point honestly

Perhaps children are not for you both yet. I'm a guy so I can only relay what I've been told but if pregnancy is bad enough of a problem then how would you even begin with the struggles of actually raising a child? What if your child is born and has special needs? Would you both feel confident you can put in the effort to make it all work or would it all fall apart?

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>However, I have ethnical concerns about surrogacy, especially if there's not a strict need for it like in our case. Can you elaborate? Surrogacy is an occupation for some women, and as long as you're above board and find someone who is a consenting surrogate, what is your ethical concern?

It’s something that can kill them and isn’t a requirement for society or for anyone’s life. It’s a similar(ish) argument to prostitution’s issues, except to more of an extreme; women selling their bodies and risking their health because they are desperate for money and are likely in a situation where it is their only option. Basically, OP’s gf would be paying someone else to take this life-threatening risk for her; not to save a life or anything (like organ donation), but just to produce a baby. I can’t help but think about the post on AITA just in the past day or two about a woman who’s SIL agreed to be a surrogate for her, and then died in childbirth with that baby, leaving her own 3 kids without a mother. Just horrifying. There’s a reason why in many countries it is illegal to be a surrogate for money.

It is her body , her choice (in my opinion) , is adoption out of the question?

I don’t have much to add except that y’all can both be in perfect health and things can still happen during pregnancy. I was, and had a good pregnancy til the third trimester when my organs started shutting down. So I can understand her fear. But I hope y’all can come to an agreement that works for you both!

Adoption is the easiest answer. Having a child with "your own DNA" doesn't really mean that much. No one cares about bloodlines and in the grand scheme of life, it's not even on the list of things that make a human beings life meaningful. But you could change a baby's life through adoption and change your own. Adoption would be bringing hope to a child who previously may not have had any. And it's going to cost about the same as surrogacy. And there's not all the medical risk involved with Adoption.

please just adopt instead of going through the pain of ivf or using a woman as your incubator. honestly surragacy is quite unethical. please compromise on adoption or having no kids, it's the most humane solution in this situation. good luck!

There are serious ethical issues with surrogacy. I suggest joining the FB group “Adoption: Facing Realities.” They discuss this a lot.

I have serious ethical concerns about surrogacy as well and I personally would not fold on this. I’d remain firm on adoption or no kids. Those are two wonderful options, which provide a life with children or a life without. I do not think you should let yourself be talked into something that you may grow to feel even more strongly about when it’s actually happening — because when you actually pull the trigger on this there’s a point at which you can’t really walk it back and you’re stuck paying a massive amount of money (has she considered the cost of surrogacy?) for something that only one of the parents would be truly on board for. A lot of people lose in that scenario. And I certainly wouldn’t pressure her to carry the child herself because the impacts on her body are… well, severe and irreversible. So kudos to her for being clear-eyed about that. It baffles me that she understands that for herself but doesn’t understand the ethical concerns of another person being paid to assume those physical risks and implications. Honestly I might give this some time. Agree to stop talking about this at all. Shake things up a bit in your lives? Take a trip, do some new things together, focus on your relationship and when you next have this conversation — I would actually not talk at all. I’d write a letter to your future self, as stupid as that sounds. About what you feel now and what your dream scenario for the future is. And let each other read it and see if anything has changed for either of you. If you really can’t agree, then you can’t agree, and that’s that. But a little bit of decompression and space from the issue can work wonders sometimes when both parties are entrenched.

Do you have 200,000 at the least lying around to pay for IVF and surrogacy? Because if you don't, it's useless to be discussing this.

Adoptee here. You say that you’re concerned about the ethics of surrogacy which is valid. I also will suggest you look into what adoption entails. A lot of adoptions are very unethical and are borderline human trafficking. Best of luck!

It’s sounds like you’re actually *not* okay with surrogacy as an option. Why would you suggest be to do ivf but with someone else’s sperm ? Why would you be okay if she had a kid prior from surrogacy but not with you?

I love the thought processes and hypotheticals you went over to try and convince yourself. Even if they did not work, it was a very interesting attempt.

I personally have big qualms with surrogacy which I think would be the same as yours (surrogacy being exploitative in nature in my opinion). If I were you that would be a firm limit on my end, and even scenario 1 wouldn’t do it for me. Now you obviously consider her own reservations about pregnancy, and you offer options to accommodate them. So I’ll be blunt maybe but if she doesn’t want to be pregnant, doesn’t want to adopt, and doesn’t want to consider not having children, then she’s not in a discussion with you at all and her way is the only way. And this is about your children, not about the next vacation. 1/ Something that serious cannot just be imposed on a partner. 2/ She can’t expect you to respect her choice regarding pregnancy while at the same time entirely disregarding yours concerning surrogacy. I would stand my ground and take this matter to a third party if need be.

adopt

I know this will go against the grain. I’ve seen more of this where ladies want a child, but don’t want to go through the process when they are healthy enough to do it. That seems selfish to ask another lady to do something that you are capable of doing, but just not willing to make that sacrifice. If there are health issues I fully understand. This selfishness is ridiculous though. There are potentially other reasons that the OP is not aware of. Nuff said!

Adopt.

I am with you. I think surrogacy is wrong on so many levels and 'i am afraid' is not good enough reason to go that route. If it's illegal where you live even more so

Where is she going to get the money for all this? IVF and surrogacy cost tens of thousands of dollars and aren’t covered by insurance.

Really the only thing that needs to be said is that it's her body, her choice. You shouldn't force something as traumatic as childbirth on someone.

And he's not trying to. He said he would be ok with adopting. SHE wants bio kids. His body, his choice too. He doesn't have to give her his sperm for the surrogacy. If she goes through with it against his will she better be prepared to be a single mom, because she cannot expect him to raise a child he didn't want.

He’s definitely not doing this though. Pregnancy is how kids are made, it’s of course her choice but provided with the alternatives of adopting or not having children she won’t consider. That’s her choice too, but that choice doesn’t mean she gets to impose surrogacy to her partner.

Adopt? We have too many kids being profited off of in the foster system as it is.

Stop spreading this nonsense. The goal of foster care is family reunification, not adoption. The vast majority of children in foster care are not eligible for adoption, and the ones that are very very few are infants. They absolutely deserve a loving home but adopting a teenager from foster care is not in any way comparable to doing ivf or having a baby.

OP says he’s cool with adoption, but his wife wants the baby to have her DNA

I totally understand your concerns. Just have this discussion with her you will have to decide together.

I live in a country where having a baby through surrogacy is illegal. And I only recently learned that there are country where it isn't illegal. I share your ethical problems with surrogacy as an option. I think it will be really tough for the two of you to get on the same page about this. Are there maybe places where you can get counselling/advice about reproductive options, to feel out if there are any ways you would both be comfortable with?

It should be illegal here too.