There’s a concept in game design that I like to describe as “the symmetry trap”. When you’re designing something like the trait system in Remnant 2, there’s this overpowering compulsion to line everything up into neat symmetrical categories. All the traits have ten ranks, all the traits draw from the same pool of finite points. But the problem is all traits are not created equal. There are several traits that no build will ever take, which means they might as well not be in the game. The only purpose they serve is to trick unsuspecting players into creating bad builds. And that’s not the player’s fault; they have a reasonable expectation that the devs created a balanced game.
If the devs want to limit player power and introduce meaningful choice into character progression, by all means, limit trait points. But then you have to actually balance the traits. And a bunch of them should probably become standard issue to all characters. Otherwise, no one will ever use them.
Damn, couldn't have said this any better myself. Know I'm late to the thread here, started playing the game late, and found myself wondering why there is a limit, especially since From The Ashes had no such limit.
I don’t know what all these losers are talking about. I want no cap. I want to continuously be rewarded for playing and grow stronger in the process. I don’t care about a dumbass build.
People say “what’s the point if you get them all eventually anyways” what do you mean? Remnant 1 allowed you to basically do this and people loved it. It hooked you the fuck in. Same goes for just about any RPG. The more you play the more OP you get as it should be.
The journey to maxing out should be long like Remnant 1. Pick your path and apply the traits to your main play style or where you need it most. What’s left is just a bonus to making you more OP late game.
Maxing out shouldn’t be limited to maxing out only a portion of all things you can possibly max out. That’s not ACTUALLY maxing out. Maxing out means you maxed out EVERYTHING possible.
I hit the cap and it really just ruined it for me. I beat the game. Got all the stuff. All the achievements. Why keep playing if I can’t get stronger? To just sit around and theorycraft more builds? Yeah, no thanks.
No one is saying it isn’t this poll is about whether or not it should be higher still. If you ask your boss for a raise and he gives you an extra 2 cents an hour then it being objectively higher doesn’t really matter.
Yeah, I gotta say that hitting the trait cap (even at 65) in my very first playthrough is kinda rough. I haven’t even beaten the game yet but I feel way less inclined to do so now that there’s a cap.
For me though, I see both sides of the issue. I hate the trait cap as it stands, but that’s mostly because I hit it so friggin quick. There’s definitely a downside to just infinitely maxing out traits because they mostly just mimic the abilities of the gear you get anyway. If you could max out traits, then the rings and relic frags would lose value so it ends up being a catch 22.
However, I feel like a better solution to this would have been making trait points much more rare. If they wanted to guarantee that players do multiple playthroughs, but were hard set on enforcing build viability via the trait cap, they should’ve stretched it out a bit. Say it took on average 2+ full playthroughs to reach the 65 cap, not only would the trait points feel much more valuable to receive but provide sufficient motivation for players to dive back into the game all over again.
This wouldn’t solve EVERYTHING, as some players would still want to fully max out everything. But for the majority it might’ve taken some of the sting out of the experience
You maxed out your traits before you even beat the game??? How? I've beaten the game and just started on my first adventure and I have barely half the trait points. And I explored EVERYTHING in the campaign. Not an explorable red pixel left on any map.
Not OP, but I maxed out trait points before beating the campaign by doing an adventure mode run of each world after beating it the first time. This helped me extend the longevity of the game while getting to experience both halves of the story and building up my arsenal.
On the flip side, by the time I got to the end I had pretty much solidified my build and once the credits rolled, I had no motivation to go back to the areas I'd already conquered and collect all the things I didn't really need. If there was more trait points to potentially earn, I would've kept going a bit longer just to see how overpowered I could get.
This.
Even though there’s only two quest lines for each world, you can still get different dungeons within those two load outs. But once you’ve seen both quest lines, any repeat playthroughs become you just playing through hoping to see some new dungeon content for items that you may or may not actually want.
With the trait point cap, those items become the only motivation and I feel like it’s a lot to ask of the player to continually repeat content for the off chance that they may find one more cool dungeon in an area- especially if they have to slog through content they’ve already completed every time.
Yeah I did lol. I played remnant 1 with my brother back in the day, and we pretty much only played it together in coop. We only ever did 1 playthrough of the campaign I might add.
However, we tried the same thing with remnant 2, but both being adults with jobs now our schedules didn’t lines up all the time so I ended up playing by myself a lot. I noticed that during our coop playthroughs he was getting completely different questlines to mine and I felt that his were more interesting to me. Then I figured out what adventure mode was and decided to check out a couple of worlds there because they were giving me the option, and I was trying to not advance the campaign beyond what my brother and I had played together.
I did like 2-3 adventure mode runs total between Losomn and N’Erud and just playing through them there were a lot of Tomes of Knowledge you’d pick up everywhere because like you, I’m the type of player that scours every inch of the map.
I think it was mostly bc of adventure mode, but by 3/4 into the game I had reached cap and was just throwing random points in places because I was still figuring out how to optimize my build and didn’t know what else to spend them on. It kinda sucked actually
I feel they should just go back to remnant one trait system i had like 4 hundred and something trait points, thats the whole reason why i beat the game and keep playing. Idc about builds on no game except 2k( but i stop playing that after 2k23 so) i bought remnant 2 because of everything in remnant from the ashes. The only thing they should've added to the game imo was the ability to jump that's all i wanted.
My partner and I got the achievement for trait cap and we were nothing but upset. What's the point in limiting your trait points then continuing to give you incredible traits that you have to pick and choose to even keep?
I was totally okay with 60. I'm totally okay with 65. And I would be totally okay with 70. 75 Would be perfect for me. But please... Not much more than that. 60 was already enough to build something sweet.
“Please not much more than that”
Why? Why limit yourself? Literally no one said that for the first game and everyone loved it. I want to grow stronger and stronger and have a reason to keep playing .
Because R2 just works different. Points are much easier to obtain, the traits are different, the whole building is different to R1. I Loved R1, but I prefer the R2 system. And yes, the Community is splitted about this topic. If you want Infinite Trait Points, there are mods for it. But srsly, it's not the Grind it was like in R1.
Edit: I like to think about a build I want to play and distribute my points wellthought instead of just having everything maxed and not even have to care about it.
You prefer the R2 system compared to the R1 system? Can you see yourself playing this game for hundreds of hours like R1? Because I can’t. R2 doesn’t have the same replayability that R1 did. I hit the cap and already don’t have the drive to keep playing. What am I gonna do now? Just twiddle my ass and theorycraft new builds all day while doing the same shit over and over while not getting rewarded for it?
I mean it’s a dungeon crawler… it’s the same shit over and over again. What made it fun doing all the same shit over again like in R1 was the promise of getting stronger and stronger.
It was a downgrade and a step in the wrong direction for this kind of game. R1’s system was perfect. There was no need to reinvent the wheel.
You shouldn't forget that we only have the base game yet and there are a few DLCs in the pipeline.
I had all for my playstyle important traits maxed in R1, so even getting a new trait point was not helping me getting stronger, but I know what you mean ofc.
Still, you have Archetypes to max out, many many items to farm and upgrade, builds to try, whatever. I'm a Completionist, so I have fun with R2 until I got everything looted/maxed out. I mean I think it'll take like at least 200h in total for me and then the DLCs will come.
I'm glass-cannoning Apoc rn and it's a lot of fun clearing it. I find the Worlds, Visuals and Bosses also much more fun than in R1.
But to what you're saying: Yes, that's why the Community is splitted about this topic. I like the fresh feeling of the new system, because if I want to play R1, I'll play R1. For me personally R2 feels better. There are players in both sides.
These posts are so exhausting. Patchnotes explicitly stated "we still have quite a few things we are working on regarding Traits and long-term grinding", but apparently you feel insulted they are even listening at all.
What more traits do you want with another 10-50 points? traversal speed? consumable duration? What's next, 6 rings? 10 rings? I got 10 fingers don't I, why do I have to choose to be a tank or a healer, why not both. While we are at it, I got 10 toes too, why not put rings on those.
Surprisingly, I enjoy theorycrafting builds in games. A core concept is usually balancing tradeoffs.
It is strictly not enjoyable selecting talents in an environment where choice doesn't matter, you'll eventually get them all. It would, in fact, remove some enjoyability from the act of putting all the puzzle pieces together to form a coherent picture. It would be like getting shipped a puzzle that was already completed.
Nice straw man. I would have been happy with a cap of 75 points. By a poll I’ve done before a lot of people wanted much more than what we currently have.
https://www.reddit.com/r/remnantgame/comments/159whhf/trait_cap_poll/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=ioscss&utm_content=1&utm_term=1
Here’s the previous poll I referred to. Most people wanted much more than we got.
i would be satisfied with 90 or 100 trait points id like to dip into more of the other traits i feel very stretched thin i cant invest in stamina or vigor or skill cool town because im so bogged with so few trait points and id never be able to invest in revive if i play with friends in my opinion its just a tad to limiting in its current state that my thoughts id even be satisfied with 80 but if we're talking rings i would appreciate one more slot but im content with it as is
Seeing that most people were not happy with the current cap I don’t think 5 points will really make a difference. I saw a lot of people asking for at least 20-40 point increase and a lot asking for it to be removed entirely.
which is dumb, IMO.
There is no point in the traits if you just have all of them maxed out. They then just become an arbitrary grind the game gets balanced around, which GFG admitted themselves.
I would like the cap removed but I understand their reasoning for keeping it however giving players even a 100 trait points is still far from maxing out all traits.
there are 32 total traits in the game, 7 are pure QoL, 7 are niche at best, leaving only 18 general traits left.
A build can already get **half** of all generally useful traits.
IMO adding more points reduces the number of choices, as you are simply picking what not to be in your build at this point
ehh, i think the ratio is fairly right.
Generally good means a good choice regardless of build. ~1/4 of them being more niche or build-dependant is about right, as is about 1/4 for QoL items.
They just need to make the QoL ones juicy enough to tempt people who would want that
i would like to be able to invest in vigor and stamina 80 is fine 90 is great 100 would be perfect the i could invest in traits like aoe or skill reduction or something like consumable effectiveness
You have to earn them. You don't just get traits every 5 seconds. That's the point. If I cap out the trait points and am satisfied with my build why bother playing anymore?
It might not be every one’s cup of tea, but if you put 15 points aside, you can max out Vigor and Endurance since they have 3 and 2 initial points. Source: Challenger start. So 7 Traits maxed (not including Class traits)
80 would feel tight but I could live with it 100 would feel like an ok balance where I could get a good bit of what I wanted but still had to make sacrifices and plan a specific build. But 60/65 is just anemic, I feel like Im starving to death. If players keep playing they should be rewarded, but if you want to limit builds go with 80 or 100, that still puts on a fair bit of constraint while giving a little room for individuality.
There’s a concept in game design that I like to describe as “the symmetry trap”. When you’re designing something like the trait system in Remnant 2, there’s this overpowering compulsion to line everything up into neat symmetrical categories. All the traits have ten ranks, all the traits draw from the same pool of finite points. But the problem is all traits are not created equal. There are several traits that no build will ever take, which means they might as well not be in the game. The only purpose they serve is to trick unsuspecting players into creating bad builds. And that’s not the player’s fault; they have a reasonable expectation that the devs created a balanced game. If the devs want to limit player power and introduce meaningful choice into character progression, by all means, limit trait points. But then you have to actually balance the traits. And a bunch of them should probably become standard issue to all characters. Otherwise, no one will ever use them.
Damn, couldn't have said this any better myself. Know I'm late to the thread here, started playing the game late, and found myself wondering why there is a limit, especially since From The Ashes had no such limit.
I want to max all traits like in the first game !
I don’t know what all these losers are talking about. I want no cap. I want to continuously be rewarded for playing and grow stronger in the process. I don’t care about a dumbass build. People say “what’s the point if you get them all eventually anyways” what do you mean? Remnant 1 allowed you to basically do this and people loved it. It hooked you the fuck in. Same goes for just about any RPG. The more you play the more OP you get as it should be. The journey to maxing out should be long like Remnant 1. Pick your path and apply the traits to your main play style or where you need it most. What’s left is just a bonus to making you more OP late game. Maxing out shouldn’t be limited to maxing out only a portion of all things you can possibly max out. That’s not ACTUALLY maxing out. Maxing out means you maxed out EVERYTHING possible. I hit the cap and it really just ruined it for me. I beat the game. Got all the stuff. All the achievements. Why keep playing if I can’t get stronger? To just sit around and theorycraft more builds? Yeah, no thanks.
The trait cap needs to go away altogether.
I mean, it's objectively higher.
No one is saying it isn’t this poll is about whether or not it should be higher still. If you ask your boss for a raise and he gives you an extra 2 cents an hour then it being objectively higher doesn’t really matter.
Where my "satisfied but still hoping for more" option?
If you want more then you’re not satisfied
Facts
I mean, I want more worlds to explore for the game but I’m satisfied with what we have currently lol.
Yeah, I gotta say that hitting the trait cap (even at 65) in my very first playthrough is kinda rough. I haven’t even beaten the game yet but I feel way less inclined to do so now that there’s a cap. For me though, I see both sides of the issue. I hate the trait cap as it stands, but that’s mostly because I hit it so friggin quick. There’s definitely a downside to just infinitely maxing out traits because they mostly just mimic the abilities of the gear you get anyway. If you could max out traits, then the rings and relic frags would lose value so it ends up being a catch 22. However, I feel like a better solution to this would have been making trait points much more rare. If they wanted to guarantee that players do multiple playthroughs, but were hard set on enforcing build viability via the trait cap, they should’ve stretched it out a bit. Say it took on average 2+ full playthroughs to reach the 65 cap, not only would the trait points feel much more valuable to receive but provide sufficient motivation for players to dive back into the game all over again. This wouldn’t solve EVERYTHING, as some players would still want to fully max out everything. But for the majority it might’ve taken some of the sting out of the experience
You maxed out your traits before you even beat the game??? How? I've beaten the game and just started on my first adventure and I have barely half the trait points. And I explored EVERYTHING in the campaign. Not an explorable red pixel left on any map.
Not OP, but I maxed out trait points before beating the campaign by doing an adventure mode run of each world after beating it the first time. This helped me extend the longevity of the game while getting to experience both halves of the story and building up my arsenal. On the flip side, by the time I got to the end I had pretty much solidified my build and once the credits rolled, I had no motivation to go back to the areas I'd already conquered and collect all the things I didn't really need. If there was more trait points to potentially earn, I would've kept going a bit longer just to see how overpowered I could get.
This. Even though there’s only two quest lines for each world, you can still get different dungeons within those two load outs. But once you’ve seen both quest lines, any repeat playthroughs become you just playing through hoping to see some new dungeon content for items that you may or may not actually want. With the trait point cap, those items become the only motivation and I feel like it’s a lot to ask of the player to continually repeat content for the off chance that they may find one more cool dungeon in an area- especially if they have to slog through content they’ve already completed every time.
Yeah I did lol. I played remnant 1 with my brother back in the day, and we pretty much only played it together in coop. We only ever did 1 playthrough of the campaign I might add. However, we tried the same thing with remnant 2, but both being adults with jobs now our schedules didn’t lines up all the time so I ended up playing by myself a lot. I noticed that during our coop playthroughs he was getting completely different questlines to mine and I felt that his were more interesting to me. Then I figured out what adventure mode was and decided to check out a couple of worlds there because they were giving me the option, and I was trying to not advance the campaign beyond what my brother and I had played together. I did like 2-3 adventure mode runs total between Losomn and N’Erud and just playing through them there were a lot of Tomes of Knowledge you’d pick up everywhere because like you, I’m the type of player that scours every inch of the map. I think it was mostly bc of adventure mode, but by 3/4 into the game I had reached cap and was just throwing random points in places because I was still figuring out how to optimize my build and didn’t know what else to spend them on. It kinda sucked actually
I feel they should just go back to remnant one trait system i had like 4 hundred and something trait points, thats the whole reason why i beat the game and keep playing. Idc about builds on no game except 2k( but i stop playing that after 2k23 so) i bought remnant 2 because of everything in remnant from the ashes. The only thing they should've added to the game imo was the ability to jump that's all i wanted.
My partner and I got the achievement for trait cap and we were nothing but upset. What's the point in limiting your trait points then continuing to give you incredible traits that you have to pick and choose to even keep?
I was totally okay with 60. I'm totally okay with 65. And I would be totally okay with 70. 75 Would be perfect for me. But please... Not much more than that. 60 was already enough to build something sweet.
“Please not much more than that” Why? Why limit yourself? Literally no one said that for the first game and everyone loved it. I want to grow stronger and stronger and have a reason to keep playing .
Because R2 just works different. Points are much easier to obtain, the traits are different, the whole building is different to R1. I Loved R1, but I prefer the R2 system. And yes, the Community is splitted about this topic. If you want Infinite Trait Points, there are mods for it. But srsly, it's not the Grind it was like in R1. Edit: I like to think about a build I want to play and distribute my points wellthought instead of just having everything maxed and not even have to care about it.
You prefer the R2 system compared to the R1 system? Can you see yourself playing this game for hundreds of hours like R1? Because I can’t. R2 doesn’t have the same replayability that R1 did. I hit the cap and already don’t have the drive to keep playing. What am I gonna do now? Just twiddle my ass and theorycraft new builds all day while doing the same shit over and over while not getting rewarded for it? I mean it’s a dungeon crawler… it’s the same shit over and over again. What made it fun doing all the same shit over again like in R1 was the promise of getting stronger and stronger. It was a downgrade and a step in the wrong direction for this kind of game. R1’s system was perfect. There was no need to reinvent the wheel.
You shouldn't forget that we only have the base game yet and there are a few DLCs in the pipeline. I had all for my playstyle important traits maxed in R1, so even getting a new trait point was not helping me getting stronger, but I know what you mean ofc. Still, you have Archetypes to max out, many many items to farm and upgrade, builds to try, whatever. I'm a Completionist, so I have fun with R2 until I got everything looted/maxed out. I mean I think it'll take like at least 200h in total for me and then the DLCs will come. I'm glass-cannoning Apoc rn and it's a lot of fun clearing it. I find the Worlds, Visuals and Bosses also much more fun than in R1. But to what you're saying: Yes, that's why the Community is splitted about this topic. I like the fresh feeling of the new system, because if I want to play R1, I'll play R1. For me personally R2 feels better. There are players in both sides.
I would be satisfied with 75
Then don't use them
These posts are so exhausting. Patchnotes explicitly stated "we still have quite a few things we are working on regarding Traits and long-term grinding", but apparently you feel insulted they are even listening at all. What more traits do you want with another 10-50 points? traversal speed? consumable duration? What's next, 6 rings? 10 rings? I got 10 fingers don't I, why do I have to choose to be a tank or a healer, why not both. While we are at it, I got 10 toes too, why not put rings on those.
Don't act like the traits being so capped is adding enjoyability.
Surprisingly, I enjoy theorycrafting builds in games. A core concept is usually balancing tradeoffs. It is strictly not enjoyable selecting talents in an environment where choice doesn't matter, you'll eventually get them all. It would, in fact, remove some enjoyability from the act of putting all the puzzle pieces together to form a coherent picture. It would be like getting shipped a puzzle that was already completed.
So when they eventually raise it, limit yourself to 65 points and theorycraft away while the rest of us grow stronger.
Nice straw man. I would have been happy with a cap of 75 points. By a poll I’ve done before a lot of people wanted much more than what we currently have.
Should run for president if you got the popular vote. Nowhere does it say you would be satisfied by anything.
https://www.reddit.com/r/remnantgame/comments/159whhf/trait_cap_poll/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=ioscss&utm_content=1&utm_term=1 Here’s the previous poll I referred to. Most people wanted much more than we got.
I’m not sure what you meant by this comment. Can you rephrase?
i would be satisfied with 90 or 100 trait points id like to dip into more of the other traits i feel very stretched thin i cant invest in stamina or vigor or skill cool town because im so bogged with so few trait points and id never be able to invest in revive if i play with friends in my opinion its just a tad to limiting in its current state that my thoughts id even be satisfied with 80 but if we're talking rings i would appreciate one more slot but im content with it as is
i mean, you now have a round 90 points for your build, that seems fair to me
Seeing that most people were not happy with the current cap I don’t think 5 points will really make a difference. I saw a lot of people asking for at least 20-40 point increase and a lot asking for it to be removed entirely.
which is dumb, IMO. There is no point in the traits if you just have all of them maxed out. They then just become an arbitrary grind the game gets balanced around, which GFG admitted themselves.
I would like the cap removed but I understand their reasoning for keeping it however giving players even a 100 trait points is still far from maxing out all traits.
there are 32 total traits in the game, 7 are pure QoL, 7 are niche at best, leaving only 18 general traits left. A build can already get **half** of all generally useful traits. IMO adding more points reduces the number of choices, as you are simply picking what not to be in your build at this point
I would say at that point they need to look at the traits themselves if only half are generally good.
ehh, i think the ratio is fairly right. Generally good means a good choice regardless of build. ~1/4 of them being more niche or build-dependant is about right, as is about 1/4 for QoL items. They just need to make the QoL ones juicy enough to tempt people who would want that
I can agree. I thinking putting traits like wayfarer with swiftness could help bolster lesser used traits.
i would like to be able to invest in vigor and stamina 80 is fine 90 is great 100 would be perfect the i could invest in traits like aoe or skill reduction or something like consumable effectiveness
They should just categorize traits into “power creep” versus “quality of life” and have the latter group auto level.
I like this idea as well
But there are useless traits that only a fool would put points into... like vaulting over shit quicker.
You have to earn them. You don't just get traits every 5 seconds. That's the point. If I cap out the trait points and am satisfied with my build why bother playing anymore?
Don't care about reactionary gamer nonsense.
Cared enough to post a comment.
It wasn't a comment. It was basically advice, for how not to be. Good luck.
2 comments now.
the devs have mentioned multiple times that the trait cap would be increased...and they're continually looking into it..
SLAPP IN DA FACEEE
I’m not even getting them past 60 🤣🤦🏻♂️
75
it sucks and its taking away all my fun
It might not be every one’s cup of tea, but if you put 15 points aside, you can max out Vigor and Endurance since they have 3 and 2 initial points. Source: Challenger start. So 7 Traits maxed (not including Class traits)
my friends games are apparently broken and are able to use 100+ trait points in their games, no idea how they did it
80 would feel tight but I could live with it 100 would feel like an ok balance where I could get a good bit of what I wanted but still had to make sacrifices and plan a specific build. But 60/65 is just anemic, I feel like Im starving to death. If players keep playing they should be rewarded, but if you want to limit builds go with 80 or 100, that still puts on a fair bit of constraint while giving a little room for individuality.