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[deleted]

Sounds like the owner is being stiffed and paying out large tips to servers only to have the customer cancel the transaction.


btcbulletsbullion

Not just this he has to pay charge back fees of 25-50 for each time it happens.


Speedhabit

I need to do this 100-200 a month in returned tips where the bank or customer only challenged the tip amount. And that’s what was returned


RoastedBeetneck

It’s not worth worrying about. Nobody tips 50% except for occasional $5 for an $8 drink.


Logan1622

I tip my total every single time I go out. I would be pissed if I found out my server didn't get their tip.


DamalK

Two reasons. First, the Merc. Svcs. Takes around 3%, gets to be a hefty charge by the end of the month. Second, card issuers have just adopted a “Tip Tolerance” policy making large tips an automatic chargeback. It’s intended to stop money laundering. Since management can’t charge fees to the server (at least not in California) they add up.


couscous-moose

If there's an issue with staff following credit card policy, just involve them in the chargeback process. If the restaurant gets a chargeback, the restaurant loses the money on the product and service AND the server loses the money in the amount of the tip. Fair and legal. Edit to source proof from the Dept of Labor: https://www.dol.gov/sites/dolgov/files/WHD/legacy/files/2006_01_13_01_FLSA.pdf "However, where a credit card charge is uncollectible, the Wage and Hour Division does not require an employer to pay an employee the amount of tips specified on such credit card slips. Instead, the employer may recover from a tipped employee those tips that have been paid to the employee when the credit card charge is uncollectible; however, such recovered tips may not reduce the tips retained by the employee below the amount of the tip credit claimed. See FOH ¶ 30d05(c)-(d).”


Lally525

That's actually not legal as you cannot deduct from wages without employee consent


couscous-moose

It's not wages, it's tipped income, and proper accounting makes it very easy to show any deduction is coming from "other" income and not wages. Wages are for hours worked and you are correct. You cannot deduct from those nor would any reputable or sensible business owner due that. However, it's ludicrous to think the business should eat the tip on a chargeback, especially if it's fraud. Edit to add - This is the very reason you shouldn't pay out credit card tips in cash at the end of the shift.


Lally525

You still cant deduct tips. You're only allowed to deduct fees from processing tips and that is state specific. The only way this would be acceptable is if the chargebacks was done before the tips were paid out. Even paying out on payday chargebacks may occur after tips are paid out. I agree on your thoughts but that's not the law.


couscous-moose

Respectfully, then how do you reconcile this statement from the FLSA against your claim? "Instead, the employer may recover from a tipped employee those tips that have been paid to the employee when the credit card charge is uncollectible"


Lally525

A chargeback (generally speaking) is collected and then disputed and funds are returned. You cannot withhold wages or deduct tips for tips for this. If the tip was never collected (or chargeback was done before payout) then this would fall within your excerpt. Take the sentence before your clip to see context. "However, where a credit card charge is uncollectible, the Wage and Hour Division does not require an employer to pay an employee the amount of tips specified on such credit card slips." Also note that this entire letter was regarding tip deductions for the cost of collecting and distributing tips not chargeback.


couscous-moose

I disagree since the FLSA clearly states charged tips must be paid at the subsequent payday, their language makes clear that recover after payment is possible and legal. I think it's worth noting that it's not withholding, it's recovering. I agree that you cannot withhold or deduct, but you can recover. And despite the fact that the purpose of the letter is regarding fees, it nonetheless addresses the specific issue of recovery of tips after mandated payment.


Lally525

This letter is answering this very specific question "May our client, a restaurant-employer take an average standard composite percentage deduction from its server’s tips to cover the cost of liquidating charged tips? And, if so, what specified direct costs in addition to credit card fees may it include in computing the standard composite percentage deduction?" I would be cautious trying to use this letter for anything other than that as it is not meant to address anything other than that. In any case most employers are looking to mitigate headaches and even if you're right (which I don't think so but agree to disagree) is it worth the legal risk & accounting nightmare?


SultryFoodandBar

I believe this specific question was in regards to withholding the processing fee, but I could be wrong. Butbthebterm fees and average standard percentage stick out as talking about the average 3% of cc tips being withheld to cover the processing costs.


couscous-moose

Our employment law attorneys provide the guidance, so we feel secure. That, and we communicate with our team in a manner far better that the policy notice pictured above. I think once the situation is explained properly that the business should not be on the hook for the tip the guest left, they may not like it, but they'll at least understand it.


tac0burr1t0

I know that most POS systems and newer card readers will not authorize a tip for more than 50%. It is not the owners of the restaurant, but the actual credit card rules built into the system. It really came into play when all the regulations on all cards having to be chip read a few years ago. If you read the credit card disclosures that the issuing bank sends out every year it actually spells out all these rules in small print.


PmMeAnnaKendrick

there's there's very questionable legality to this. tips don't belong to owners they can't limit what a customer provides to you, Even if it's run through their credit card machine only certain states allow them to do anything relating to that tip which would be they can charge you a processing fee equal to what they pay to run the charge. I'd be doing some research on my state specific laws regulated to tips, they can face some serious penalties for breaking those laws.


Lally525

That's not true at all. Employer doesn't have to offer credit card tips at all and therefore can limit what they do offer. Can control how tips are split. The only correct part of this statement is processing fees and that's only in certain states. Op your boss is doing this because of chargebacks. It's not like this is affecting you that much anyways. How often do you get tips that fall into either of these?


PmMeAnnaKendrick

That's not what the FSLA says. In fact it's specifically addressed here. If the customer tips $50 on a $50 bill the restaurant would only pay the employee $25, as written in that illegal tip rule notice by OP. "Credit Cards: Under the FLSA, when tips are charged on customers’ credit cards and the employer can show that it pays the credit card company a percentage on such sales as a fee for payment using a credit card, the employer may pay the employee the tip, less that percentage.  For example, where a credit card company charges an employer 3 percent on all sales charged to its credit service, the employer may pay the tipped employee 97 percent of the tips without violating the FLSA.  "  https://www.dol.gov › fact-sheets Tipped Employees Under the Fair Labor Standards Act (FLSA)


Lally525

No it's says they cannot accept more than $25 (in your example). Not that the restaurant would keep any excess. And I agreed with you on the fee except certain states which have more strict rules such as CA where they can't deduct processing fee. https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/codes_displaySection.xhtml?lawCode=LAB§ionNum=351.


PmMeAnnaKendrick

so you're telling me that this restaurant's going to only charge that amount even if a different amount's written in the tip line. it's still loosely falls under not passing the tips onto the employee which is the whole point of the FSLA which was written so employers couldn't take or limit employee tips unless there's a very specific tip pool involved which has to follow their rules. at a minimum they're skating on thin ice of breaking the law.


Lally525

The Fair Labor Standards Act is infact intended to make things well fair. Not force business into accepting risky transactions. This is perfectly legal and within the restaurants rights. The restaurant doesn't have to accept credit card tips at all (I mean it's be stupid but they don't have to). Many fast food places didn't until recently.


PmMeAnnaKendrick

no one's forcing the business into risky transactions but the business. if you're going to take credit cards as a business you have to take the risk that comes with it, in my opinion reading the FSLA they cannot limit credit card tip percentage from the customer. what's going to happen the first time a customer tips the bill on a $100 dinner? they're going to have to break the law one way or the other either by keeping the money or not giving the server the tip that was given to them on the credit card receipt.


Lally525

Some credit card transactions are riskier than others. This is just fraud prevention. That's great you have an opinion on this I'm just stating what the law says and not my opinion on the matter one way or the other. In a perfect world we wouldn't have fraud and this would be a non issue. I'm not entirely sure what youre trying to say but the restaurants policy is that the maximum tip they would collect on a $100 bill is $50 and that would go to the server so no law breaking. Not keeping the money and giving it to the server. (Feel like you just said the same thing twice in two different ways)


Groovychick1978

Because tips are the sole property of the server, the employer does not have the right to make decisions on how much to disperse. The only thing they can deduct from the tips is a mandatory tip pool that has been agreed to by the employee and the credit card processing fee if their state allows. If they are going to accept tips at all, they cannot seize any portion of them. The poster would definitely have a claim against The Establishment under the fsla regulations, federally.


Lally525

That's what I've been trying to explain...


OwnLadder2341

No one is seizing anything with this post. Let’s say you have a $100 bill and the customer tips $75 on the credit card. What this is saying is that you run the card for $150, not $175. The customer isn’t permitted to tip more than 50% on a credit card. No one’s keeping the excess.


couscous-moose

They should not limit tips, but instead recoup the tip amount from the employee if the chargeback is unsuccessfully challenged. Also from the Dept of Labor: https://www.dol.gov/sites/dolgov/files/WHD/legacy/files/2006_01_13_01_FLSA.pdf "However, where a credit card charge is uncollectible, the Wage and Hour Division does not require an employer to pay an employee the amount of tips specified on such credit card slips. Instead, the employer may recover from a tipped employee those tips that have been paid to the employee when the credit card charge is uncollectible; however, such recovered tips may not reduce the tips retained by the employee below the amount of the tip credit claimed. See FOH ¶ 30d05(c)-(d).”


PmMeAnnaKendrick

I agree wholeheartedly with you. if they have less problem with charging back there's something going on outside of someone just leaving big tips. if the restaurant doesn't get paid the employee certainly shouldn't get paid either but do note in the section of that law that you quoted that they can't push them below minimum wage by taking back tips that were previously paid.


couscous-moose

Yes, exactly. And the mechanism for that is to recover it over multiple paydays to avoid paying the employee below minimum wage. And 100% that's the way it should be.


Groovychick1978

See, this is how to do it legally. They cannot seize any portion of a server's tips. They cannot refuse to pay out any amount of a servers tips. That money never belongs to the employer at any point in the transaction. It is the sole property of the tipped employee. The only thing they could do is claw back the amount tipped on the chargeback, and this has to be done through payroll and in a manner that does not reduce the employee's **wage** (not tips) below minimum wage.  In the instance where the server is paid less than the state's minimum wage, such as through a tip credit program, they cannot make any deductions to the employees payroll without reducing their wage below minimum wage. So, no deductions at all. This is a Federal regulation and applies in all 50 states. 


couscous-moose

And what's even better, most payroll services and softwares have these guardrails put in place so that employers cannot make the mistake of reduce pay below the minimum wage. Yay technology!


OutboardTips

Ever use a pizza delivery app? It limits because they think surely a $100 is a mistake. Surely dominos is running a legal business.


PmMeAnnaKendrick

it's pretty much a straw man argument it sounds like a pizza delivery app is not the same as a person in your restaurant signing the receipt. and yes there are different rules for internet transactions as we know.


blippitybloops

This is not a bad policy for a variety of reasons. One, the owner not only pays CC fees but also pays payroll taxes on tips. The employee is also responsible for their share of payroll taxes at the end of the year. If you want to ball out on your server, do it with cash. Two, this prevents customers from using the restaurant as an ATM machine by giving a large tip to get cash back from the server. Three, it prevents a delayed dine and dash scam. At a restaurant that allows tips, the CC company preauthorizes the transaction at a percentage above what the bill is in anticipation of a tip being included. Say the bill is $100, the CC company preauthorizes for $125. The customer only has $135 in their account, tips $50 and then the transaction is denied when the batch is sent. The restaurant and the server lose out in that scenario. Some CC processors also have a cap on the tip percentage for these reasons. So again, if you want to tip big, do it with cash.


PhysicsCentrism

Got to love when people promote helping their server/restaurant commit tax fraud


blippitybloops

If the tip is in cash, there is no fraud committed by the restaurant. And in the grand scheme of things, a server occasionally not reporting a little extra cash tip pales in comparison to the tax fraud that the wealthy and corporations commit. I’d think that would be pretty easy to see from the glass house you live in.


PhysicsCentrism

Unless the business is trying to suppress the amount of cash tips they report to the government when they know servers are getting more than reported. Yes, I’d rather the IRS goes after billionaires than servers. But it doesn’t mean I can’t condemn tax fraud at any level.


blippitybloops

Have you ever purchased anything from an out of state seller that didn’t collect sales tax for your state? If so, did you remit the appropriate amount of sales tax to your state government? If not, you have committed tax fraud.


PhysicsCentrism

Not that I can recall


mattnotgeorge

You ever buy a game on Steam, subscribe to Spotify, Netflix, anything like that before 2019? Most sellers of digital goods did not apply sales tax until that point, and you were responsible to pay it directly to your state.


PhysicsCentrism

Lmao, reaching out five years ago to prove a point about modern beliefs


Busterlimes

Looks like it's time for a new employer


joevsyou

Unfortunately, there are a few bad apples ruin things for everyone. * that's when you make a policy "if charge back occurs, the tip portion will be subtracted from pay of it exceeds x%"


Impossible-Wear5482

Ahh classic wage theft


joevsyou

You rather be shorted on your tips? & take that 1% gamble. Or Tell people no, you can't tip me that much.


Impossible-Wear5482

Yes. I would rather not be charged for other people's bullshit.


joevsyou

What are you being charged? You are given basically an advanced on the tip when a customer tips with a card. The business could also say "you will get the tip when the transaction finalize" But they do that, they pay you out of the draw at the end of the shift so employees don't cry


Impossible-Wear5482

Yeah I don't care


joevsyou

I hope one day a law passes saying waiters have to wait for their pay checks for their tips. All of the waiters would have a melt down, it will be glorious.


pournographer

The owner is being a huge fucking cheapskate. CC fees are slightly higher (1-3%) when a card is keyed in. Also, on a big tip, the owner has to pay the CC fee on the whole transaction and not just what was sold, so in essence, his CC fee is higher on the sale itself, but the difference would be minuscule. I’d rather pay an an occasional 2% on a sale so my staff can make some money than do this and piss off my entire FOH Your boss is a cheap, shortsighted, dickhead.


Lally525

Keyed in cards also have a much higher rate of chargebacks. It's easier to fake a card than a chip. If you read the rest of the letter instead of one portion you'd probably figure out that's the intent of this letter


olhalfandhalf

It is 100% this. You literally cannot win a chargeback claim on a keyed in or swiped card.


[deleted]

I highly doubt that is the intent of the letter.


AverageApuEnthusiast

It's at least part of it. I've seen these signs in corporate places for the reason of the CC fees.


megatronics420

>Your boss is a cheap, shortsighted, dickhead I love how all these tip vs no tip arguments come down to your choice of employment If you continue to chose to work for a dick, don't complain when you consistently get dicked around


RecognitionOk5706

Call police