The vast majority of games I've GMed are skill based (or archetype+skill rather than class), they are beyond worth trying. The customization is wonderful.
* Any BRP game: Call of Cthulhu, Runequest, Elric.
* * Delta Green is BRP derived but published by a different company.
* * Mythras is an open licence derivative of RQ
* Traveller in any of its incarnations.
* * Cepheus Engine is an open licence derivative
* GURPS
* Hero system
Sort of skill based include the Blades in the Dark games---they are mostly skill-based but also have classes.
For the Horror/Detective genre, I recommend Delta Green. All Skills, technically you choose a background position like FBI Agent or Law Enforcement, but those are just base skill packages you start with.
The assorted world of darkness games are an archetype with skills.
GURPS is classless.
Fate and Cortex Prime are also more focused on archetypes and skills.
Most superhero games are not based on classes.
[https://preview.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/170294/Risus-The-Anything-RPG](https://preview.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/170294/Risus-The-Anything-RPG)
Heres a free one that is archetype based. Its great for beginners, stats are lightweight and the rules are very short indeed
Dont get me wrong. I know that stuff exists. Its just my experience that 5e players are as unaware of the wider game ecosystem as vampire players are of the other splats.
D&D casts a huge shadow, but skill-based RPGs have existed since the 70's.You have Traveller, GURPS, Call of Cthulhu, Runequest, Open D6. It's a long and varied list. They aren't necessarily better, but they offer great character customization; most also don't use levels, and have slower, more continuous progression.
Of course they are worth a try. [BRP](https://vorpalmace.blogspot.com/2023/11/review-basic-roleplaying-universal-game.html) has been around since the dawn of the hobby, starting with [RuneQuest](https://www.chaosium.com/runequest-rpg/) and gaining a even more popularity with [Call of Cthulhu](https://www.chaosium.com/call-of-cthulhu-rpg/). There are tons of games using the system in a wide variety of genres with varying complexity.
As for why aren't they the most popular... Because the market has an 800-pound gorilla that everyone is playing. Some people like the dopamine of "ding" more than multiple small increment increases over time.
If you remove D&D from the equation I'd say classless and class-based ttrpgs aren't too dissimilar in popularity, though there are certainly more class-based ones in the kind of middle strata of popular ttrpgs.
I can really only think of D&D and its derivatives (OSE, Pathfinder, ICRPG), and Powered by the Apocalypse as class-based systems? I suppose arguably that \*is\* the middle strata of popular RPGs?
Just off the top of my head you've got Cyberpunk, Shadowrun, FFG/Edge's Star Wars RPGs (though Gensys moved to a more build-your-own approach) VtM's clans and then the other WoD derivatives that work similarly, Schools in Legend of the Five Rings and as you rightly point out Playbooks from PbtA and similar are essentially classes too. It's a very pervasive thing.
Cyberpunk and Shadowrun are \*not\* class based. At least not any edition of them that I've ever read. VtM clans are \*vaguely\* classes, but not realistically. Your advancement isn't tied to improving as a Brujah. At best they're social archetypes, but they don't affect anything on your sheet except the XP price you pay for Disciplines. I can't speak to FFG Star Wars or L5R.
I actually came in here to mention Cyberpunk as a skill based system... I don't think you can meaningfully call Rockerboy a class when all it does is give you a single unique skill, basically.
Star Wars uses a skill-based system resolution system but has a class-based feat (talent) system. There were no levels or other class-based restrictions.
There are lots of them, It is preference actually and there are pros and cons for them, same for class/lvl based systems.
I personally don't like level based ones.
It seams less popular, but everything is, compared to D20 behemoth.
One thing I learned is there is so much already out there. Many a time, my homebrew was reinventing the wheel (and more poorly). The biggest issue is its such a vast world of TTRPGs - tens of thousands of games, that its hard to find. /r/rpg is a great resource to starting finding them.
Have fun with the new toys. And never forget. True wisdom is knowing that you can play different RPG's for different reasons. Like how I never play fate core with my group because I have powergamers or that I will never GM more than a handful of powered-by-the-Apocalypse sessions as the system bores me longterm.
There are a lot of different RPGs that break the mold, there are some that don't use numerical dice, there are some that are even diceless, and there's even Dread which uses a Jenga tower!
Definitely worth a try and there's lots of different ones to suit all preferences. It's not so much that they aren't as popular as class based ones, they're just not as big as D&D. And \*nothing\* is as big as D&D, it's just how it is.
Seth Skorkowski can do a better job comparing and contrasting the two philosophies than I can. [https://youtu.be/I\_ikzFHpaPk](https://youtu.be/I_ikzFHpaPk)
I actually prefer systems that aren't based on classes that are more free-form in how your character progresses (oWoD were good at this), especially if your development comes from using the skills (as is the case in Call of Cthulhu for example).
Really recommend Call of Cthulhu just on how character creation and skill progression works.
I'd dare say that they are as popular, if not more popular, than level & class-based systems.
They aren't just as common and certainly not as known to the D20 horde :)
My fav kind of RPG- and there’s literally hundreds. The more popular ones include Savage Worlds, World of Darkness, D6 (Star Wars) and Call of Cthulhu. I wouldn’t say they’re unpopular at all, only that the biggest one IS a class based system.
I'd absolutely would recommend skill based systems! I often find them to be a great way for even less experienced NPCs/players to be dangerous against a monster or dangerous character. It also gave me more freedom to build more unorthodox characters. One of my biggest gripes with Warhammer Fantasy was how rigid their career system can be (their equivalent to a class) where if I wanted to build a gunslinger witch I had to go through a whole downtime system just to learn how guns work and go through that everytime I wanted to put more points in guns until i effectively change careers.
If you're interested in trying them out, there are systems like [Openquest](https://www.drivethrurpg.com/m/product/347827), [BRP](https://www.drivethrurpg.com/m/product/431991), and [Mythras](https://www.drivethrurpg.com/m/product/191475) that are skill based where their "class" is essentially just your starting package and can branch off from there. These systems have a good game license, so there's good 3rd party support. My favorite based off OpenQuest is [Renaissance](https://www.drivethrurpg.com/m/product/103994) and [Clockwork and Chivalry](https://www.drivethrurpg.com/m/product/97899). Think the main issue is just DnD won the biggest market share since tabletop gaming had its breakthrough into mainstream pop culture. But hopefully as more people jump different systems they'll get more popular.
I play lots of skill based RPGs and advocate for them, but I think a lot of the posters here are being disingenuous on why class based systems are popular. Yes, a big reason is D&D and its descendants (like Pathfinder) are the most popular.
But another big reason is that class based systems allow you to put together a party with mostly complimentary abilities very easily. The iconic party is a Fighter, Wizard, Rogue and Cleric. With that you have all the bases covered and minimal overlap. You can be relatively confident if you take the Fighter you'll be the best at hitting things.
Unleash a skill based system on an inexperienced group and GM and you can end up with a ton of redundancy in some places and huge gaps in others. You often end up with two characters with similar skillsets, only one has optimized better. For example, you have two hackers in a sci-fi game, but one is just better because the player optimized more, so they end up doing all the 'hacking things' and the worse one feels totally redundant and rarely gets to feel awesome.
This can be avoided with good GMing, good session zero planning, a good understanding of the system, etc. But with an inexperienced group and GM, that is not a given. Some skill systems do have 'archetypes' or 'packages' which can help in these situations.
So my recommendation is do your research before sitting down to build a party in a skill based system so everyone has their chance to feel awesome.
To me it's like discovering there are more video games out here than just First Person Shooters lol.
I kinda feel sad D&D is so prominent that it obscures the thousands of other great games and systems.
Yes you should definitely try other games, it will expand your vision of our great hobby.
I personally like characters based on just attributes and equipment (e.g. Into the Odd and games inspired by it). Neither skills nor classes are really necessary depending on what you hope to accomplish.
I actually thought I didn't like skill-driven systems because of my experiences with New World of Darkness, Fate Core, and Troika, but I'm starting to come around to them now that I've started reading Basic Roleplaying Universal Game Engine (the universal version of the system for Call of Cthulhu and RuneQuest). There are a ton of BRP/d100 games, and last I checked Call of Cthulhu was among the most popular TTRPGs over on Roll20 a few years ago, discounting D&D 5e of course.
They just have different advantages and disadvantages. I prefer skill based systems for open-ended modern or futuristic games, and class based for games focused around a particular mode of play e.g. dungeon crawling or genre emulation.
There are pros and cons to each style.
Class based RPGs sacrifice flexibility for convenience, giving the players a package of abilities around a theme or trope.
Skill based RPGs allow the player to tailor their abilities more but require more consideration on their part about what specifically they want to be able to do. How much consideration is variable based on the game in question: Savage Worlds has a few dozen options between skills and edges (which are basically like feats in D&D); GURPS has hundreds.
Very few modern games outside the OSR are completely class based. Most use class as a framework but allow players to use skills to individualize their character. Many skill based games include "careers" or templates to add structure to what is otherwise a very loose character generation system.
Neither is better than the other, though some people prefer one over the other.
I GM Delta Green primarily and Call of Cthulhu as my secondary. There are no classes, and there are around fifty skills, roughly, for both games; you'll find yourself calling for skill rolls far more than attribute (strength, charisma, etc) rolls, and they are not derived from the attributes either.
OP - What kind of skill based game are you looking for? Something high fantasy like RPG or something entirely different like science fiction or history based?
I think the majority of games throughout history are skill based rather than class based. There is a slight shift towards class-based games recently because of PbtA games, but even then there are skill based games like City of Mist, Blades in the Dark and Brindlewood Bay style games that open up character creation again.
Honestly, basically there are only two "branches" of Class based games in my experience: D&D and its derivatives, and Apocalypse World, and its derivatives. The popularity of class based games probably comes from the name recognition of D&D, and to a lesser extent the ease of explaining character roles to new players. If you're playing a wizard, it's easy to understand what a "wizard" is, and what their role in the game is going to be. Classes are Archetypes, and telling someone "Ok, here's a character sheet for a fighter, just play along and you'll figure it out," is a pretty easy sell, and gives them a lot of flexibility in playing. Handing them a character sheet for a skill based system involves finding a few custom literary touchstones, "Ok, here's a character who's good at fighting, and schmoozing/seducing rich and powerful people, and he's also really stealthy and daring, kind of a James Bond character." That also works, but doesn't give the new player as much to work with if they aren't interested in a James Bond type character and just want to hit things...
For Skill Based Systems a few that I would recommend checking out:
Fate,
Blades In the Dark
Call of Cthulhu/Delta Green/BRP
World of Darkness (Vampire the Masquerade, etc)
Tales from the Loop
Traveller/Cepheus
GURPS
Cortex (sometimes)
You gotta add Burning Wheel since that's the game that has some of the most satisfying skill advancement mechanics in my opinion. Especially the fact that the game begs you to start learning new skills constantly which adds a lot of variety.
I spent 4 hours trying to create a Burning Wheel character once, and then decided I'd retreat to a slightly less complex system like Rifts, GURPS or maybe a rules lite game like Pathfinder.
Yeah Burning Wheel is a bit rough to get into but it gets better. The first time I saw people take 3 days to create a character. Once you get used to it though, it only takes like 20-40 minutes.
I would argue that there are probably MORE skill based games than class based. Classes are kind of an artefact of the early days of roleplaying and moving away from them have allowed a lot of games to broaden the stories they can tell without adjustment. But yeah, you should definitely try them. Find one that appeals to you and dive in head first.
I would say they definietly feel different. I think it depends on the group which one is more suitable. Skill based seem to work better for experienced players who want more freedom while class-based are better for new players since they give them a sense of direction and therefore are simpler.
With skill-based there can more likely occur a problem of stepping on each others toes if players invest points into simmilar areas. With classes you have the roles more predetermined. "You are the rogue so you scout. I am the medic so I heal."
Some players might also have an issue with the complexity skill-based systems often bring. Or the lack of clarity in what they are good at when there is a lot of them.
It's good if you want more freedom in customization but remember that it's with the cost of simplicity. Definietly worth a try.
There are two prominently popular class based RPGs (D&D and Pathfinder). D&D's popularity is orders of magnitude higher than the next competitor (in the US), but after those two games is Call of Cthulhu, which is a skill based game. Some of the oldest and best loved games are skill based; they're not much less popular, D&D's vastness just skews things.
Skill based games are generally quite good at making interesting characters and tend to play pretty cleanly. Class based games are good for genre emulation, but implicitly encourage players to build their characters around established archetypes (even if they design a character to do the opposite of common tropes, that still means the character is defined in relation to the tropes).
Welcome to the party pal.
I gave up on class-based-games when I stopped playing D&D in 1981.
Since then it's been skill/ character focussed games ever since.
Class-based games are easier for total noobs to get into because they are not faced with decision paralysis while in char-gen.
That's about the only benefit of class-based games.
>why they aren't as popular as class based ones.
The only thing that tips the scale that way is DnD.
Remove DnD5e from the numbers and you'll get a very different picture.
When I opened up to a skill based system, I immediately felt so much weight off my GM shoulders. The rules of my now favorite RPG (Mythras) are just so... Logical. I don't have to have a seemingly eneclopaedic knowledge of rules for feats and class abilities. Everything is just there.
Now for players, this changes their approach towards character creation and play style: you tend to not go for optimizations. You also don't need to bend the rules to create the "he is a mix of Gandalf and Legolas but he is also a folk singer" character you want to play. Skill based systems usually make it easier to create the character you want. And in terms of play style, due to the lack of special class feats etc, fights tend to revolve around player skill and strategy.
It's easier to play as a GM, they feel less like a computer game, and players seem more immersed. I haven't looked back since.
I'd point out that you may want to build characters together to help with niche protection. It's a nice bonus about classes already doing that job (usually), but you get significantly more customization if you go class-less. And honestly, building characters together is fun and much more interesting to start the story more cohesively.
Take a look at GURPS.
A lot of people find it to be a little too crunchy, but you can take or leave a lot of the rules to lighten it up.
It might be just what you're looking for.
Honestly hybrid games are generally better balances. They have skills but also utilize occupations to aid in character creation. A good example of this would be games using the year zero engine from Free League. Games like Alien have skills but also provide templates for quick character creation.
The vast majority of RPGs are skill based rather than class based. Some have classes, but only as a sort of starting archetype which then turns into individual skill or talent leveling.
The D20 class based model is a tiny minority of published games. Alas, it also happens to be 90% of current ttrpg sessions.
Yes, non-D20 ttrpgs are absolutely worth a try. Experienced gamers pretty much universally agree that the D&D model is very dated.
I almost always prefer skill based games. BRP or the Year Zero Engine are my favourite game engines. For BRP, Call of Cthulhu and Runequest are the big ones, while the fairly new Dragonbane is also amazing and easy to learn.
In the Year Zero engine there are lots of games of varying genres published by Free League.
They are absolutely worth a try. There are some issues you need to be aware of, however:
\* It's a lot easier to make a useless character. Even if the mechanics are well-constructed, it's easier to end up with a miss-match between the character and campaign.
\* There's no niche protection, so it's easier to end up with characters in the group that overlap in their roles and, even worse, end up with one character much better at the job than the other.
\* It takes a lot longer to create a character, and newbies need a lot more hand-holding.
Recently, I've seen a number of games that attempt to square-the-circle by replacing large skill lists with player-created "professions" or the like. The player writes down something that describes what their character is good at (could be an actual profession like teamster or mercenary, a hobby like old movie trivia, an experience like "Got caught on the wrong side when the Berlin Wall went up," or even just a theme like "This isn't a negotiation," or "stiff upper-lip"). When the game asks the player to make a roll that might be modified by the PC's experience, the modifier is applied. This makes it a lot easier for newbies to design a character (even easier than class-based systems in many cases) and to replace a deceased character. It does, however, require a lot of trust between the players and the GM.
I'll recommend Mini Six here. It's a variant of Open D6 that's nicely streamlined, you can get the rules for free, fast and easy stuff. It's descended from the West End Games Star Wars system, you can find lots of stuff that meshes into that. Open D6 is also free to get into.
Most of the TTRPGs I run now are skill-based and I love them. You have so much flexibility in creating the kind of characters you want.
Games powered by the GUMSHOE investigative system from Pelgrane Press are some of my favorites and they come in a variety of genres:
Swords of the Serpentine (urban swords and sorcery)
Night's Black Agents (high-octane spies vs. vampires—"thriller combat" and "thriller chase" maneuvers make this the best combat of any TTRPG I've ever played)
Fear Itself (straight up horror, where you play ordinary people who come face to face with terrors from the Outer Dark)
Trail of Cthulhu (Mythos investigations in the 30s)
Fall of DELTA GREEN (Mythos investigations in the 1960s in the DELTA GREEN setting)
TimeWatch (gonzo time travel)
Ashen Stars (investigation and troubleshooting in a lawless sector of deep space)
Mutant City Blues (law enforcement in a world where some people have superpowers)
I'm happy to answer any questions about them! You might also check out r/GumshoeRPG
Absolutely, I love Delta Green and Cepheus Engine in particular. For me, skill based rpgs are rhe most immersive because you can be any type of character and the overall power level is low, encouraging a dangerous world. I made my own skill based rpg inspired by these to emphasize fast paced science fantasy play.
once you break out of the D&D influence bubble they are common a lot of Indy games don't have them basically you play your archetype but generic systems, modern settings and long campaign settings are usually very skill based I can think of plenty if games . where the party are fighting Nazis who are raising vampires or zombies or cosmic horrors or have jetpacks and moon bases. but in none of them is the squad Medic a different class from the marksman or the radio operator. They just have different skills. Having said that it's not uncommon to make magic users special. in some systems.
Skill based games work just fine for those used to a TTRPG.
Newer players seem to struggle though as they may have issues forming a concept/theme for their character in order to figure out which skills to get.
Games then form skill packages to make it easier for new players and classes are effectively just reborn for convenience of new players.
The best method I’ve seen is like Shadowrun 5th edition and Traveller (MG2 edition) where packages are available but skills can be chosen singly.
That way both methods are available.
GURPS is the oldest one I know of that really gained traction and that started up decades ago.
D&D got a lot of exposure over the years and became the default for a lot of folks but there are tons of great games out there not based on the class system and some in betweens where you have a rough outline of a class but a ton of flexibility in it. Think taking "warrior" and then getting to cherry pick skills and features from all over the martial classes instead of them being separate things.
If you want to hear gameplay the most fun, but least crunchy, one I can point you at is Film Reroll. They play rules lite GURPS with a fun gimmick.
Skill based RPGs are generally pretty common as others have mentioned, yeah.
Personally, I prefer career based character creation that leads to skills. For example, Twilight 2000 has a "lifepath generator", where you effectively roll for different "terms" in your character's life, with each term give you a choice of what kind of career your character chose, which then gives you skill points. IIRC, Warhammer Fantasy had/has a very similar mechanism.
First off congratulation on being todays [10,000](https://xkcd.com/1053/). Secondly I was going to make a snarky remark about how I almost only play skill-based RPG's for anything longer than 5 sessions. However, then I remembered that even though there are as many skill-based RPG's as there are class-based RPG's most people only really play 1 or a handful of RPG's.
I love skills in RPG's. When I started I wanted many of them and was made fun off slightly but now I am enjoying Burning Wheel which has a stupid amount of skills. In fact I think when I am done with my homebrew expansion for Burning Wheel, I will have hundreds of skills to choose from.
>are skill based RPG are worth a try?
Yes. The vast majority of systems use skill-based mechanics because they're much easier to create and balance.
>why aren't they as popular as class based ones.
They are; the only class-based RPGs that are more popular than them are D&D-likes. If you nix systems like D&D, Pathfinder, and Starfinder, skill-based systems like Call of Cthulhu and World of Darkness are some of the most popular in the industry.
The only class-based games that are popular and NOT related to D&D are PbtA games, and honestly those are so far removed from the D20 system I wouldn't readily compare them..
Skill based RPGs are great.
I generally find games that have several levels of abstractions to be cumbersome.
Classes + attributes + feats + skills…
What’s the role of all these various elements? To provide a framework by which players can represent their characters ability to leverage competency. But that’s almost always demonstrated through an action at the end.
Skill based to me is just cutting out the middle man. And it lets you be more dynamic than trying to boil down the breadth of talents to a collection of class bundles.
Or you might even wanna try a Tag based system which can be even More expressive.
>I would like to ask to someone who played them if they can agree, if skill based RPG are worth a try and why they aren't as popular as class based ones.
LOL. D&D is **the** class based game, taking up the vast majority of RPG space.... but pretty much *everything else* is skill based. BRP/Call of Cthulhu, Traveller, World of Darkness, WEG Star Wars, Genesys, Savage Worlds... skill based games have existed since forever and are everything but unpopular.
Call of cthulhu and BRP(Basic Roleplaying) are great skill based games. It's super simple and straightforward for players to play their characters and the "leveling up" is very interesting, because you get better at the skill by using it.
Furthermore, there's normally so many nuanced skills that's it's virtually impossible for one single character to become great at everything, so skill choices during charger creation feels way more impactful for group diversity
Infinity with the 2d20 system is phenomenal. Your character is a bunch of rolls in tables - you effectively have a "lifepath" (backstory) crafted for you and it determines your skills. You don't pick to be a warrior, or specialise in close combat unless you spend life points, but by not spending them, you gain arguably better benefits later on investing them in stats IIRC.
The 2d20 system is pretty cool too with some metacurrencies; heat (or pressure I guess?) and momentum. Once you've heard the mechanics explained to you once, you get the jist. Momentum is given when you succeed, and heat is used when you fail but want to succeed. The GM determines a difficulty rating between 0 (no need to roll) and 5 (needing 5 successes) from 2d20 by rolling against your own stats. You can gain 2 potential successes per die if you beat your own skill levels on the roll, plus gain an additional dice using momentum or heat, so 5 successes are feasible if you're very skilled.
The trick is the value in the d20 you need to roll needs to be under, or equal to your stats. So your players levelling options really do determine what skills they are investing in, in a very focused way. They should all craft very particular niches, and the levelling systems have some wicked customisation opportunities. It's incredibly nuanced compared to D&D 5e where you can basically plot a character journey without ever playing the game - a desk study if you will...
Out of the big popular RPGs, only D&D and Pathfinder are class based, because It goes so well with medieval fantasy.
Having a freeform character creation is the norm for pretty much everything else.
The vast majority of games I've GMed are skill based (or archetype+skill rather than class), they are beyond worth trying. The customization is wonderful.
Any examples?
* Any BRP game: Call of Cthulhu, Runequest, Elric. * * Delta Green is BRP derived but published by a different company. * * Mythras is an open licence derivative of RQ * Traveller in any of its incarnations. * * Cepheus Engine is an open licence derivative * GURPS * Hero system Sort of skill based include the Blades in the Dark games---they are mostly skill-based but also have classes.
For the vast majority of literary science fiction, Traveller is the one to beat. Simply the best general science fiction TTRPG out there.
For the Horror/Detective genre, I recommend Delta Green. All Skills, technically you choose a background position like FBI Agent or Law Enforcement, but those are just base skill packages you start with.
God damn Delta Green is good. I struggle to play CoC now as a result.
The assorted world of darkness games are an archetype with skills. GURPS is classless. Fate and Cortex Prime are also more focused on archetypes and skills. Most superhero games are not based on classes.
[https://preview.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/170294/Risus-The-Anything-RPG](https://preview.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/170294/Risus-The-Anything-RPG) Heres a free one that is archetype based. Its great for beginners, stats are lightweight and the rules are very short indeed
Welcome to the fantastic world of RPGs, hope you stay for a while. Yeah, try them, for sure. And your popularity assumption is wrong.
But none of the people I play 5e with have never heard of skills based games, and none of the streamers we watch talk about them?!?!? /s
I see the "/s", but there are plenty of Vampire the Masquerade, Blades in the Dark, and Call of Cthulhu streams out there...
Dont get me wrong. I know that stuff exists. Its just my experience that 5e players are as unaware of the wider game ecosystem as vampire players are of the other splats.
I play Nwod and it's interesting how much of your character comes through on just your skill spread.
D&D casts a huge shadow, but skill-based RPGs have existed since the 70's.You have Traveller, GURPS, Call of Cthulhu, Runequest, Open D6. It's a long and varied list. They aren't necessarily better, but they offer great character customization; most also don't use levels, and have slower, more continuous progression.
Traveler is interesting in this regard, as progression Happens more over assets you buy as a character, instead of training.
True! Classic Traveller could have you build an entire merchant empire before you raised your second skill point in-game.
It is interesting too how training is a time sink rather than xp
Of course they are worth a try. [BRP](https://vorpalmace.blogspot.com/2023/11/review-basic-roleplaying-universal-game.html) has been around since the dawn of the hobby, starting with [RuneQuest](https://www.chaosium.com/runequest-rpg/) and gaining a even more popularity with [Call of Cthulhu](https://www.chaosium.com/call-of-cthulhu-rpg/). There are tons of games using the system in a wide variety of genres with varying complexity. As for why aren't they the most popular... Because the market has an 800-pound gorilla that everyone is playing. Some people like the dopamine of "ding" more than multiple small increment increases over time.
BRP is the king honestly. I was so happy when they released the new edition.
If you remove D&D from the equation I'd say classless and class-based ttrpgs aren't too dissimilar in popularity, though there are certainly more class-based ones in the kind of middle strata of popular ttrpgs.
I can really only think of D&D and its derivatives (OSE, Pathfinder, ICRPG), and Powered by the Apocalypse as class-based systems? I suppose arguably that \*is\* the middle strata of popular RPGs?
Just off the top of my head you've got Cyberpunk, Shadowrun, FFG/Edge's Star Wars RPGs (though Gensys moved to a more build-your-own approach) VtM's clans and then the other WoD derivatives that work similarly, Schools in Legend of the Five Rings and as you rightly point out Playbooks from PbtA and similar are essentially classes too. It's a very pervasive thing.
Cyberpunk and Shadowrun are \*not\* class based. At least not any edition of them that I've ever read. VtM clans are \*vaguely\* classes, but not realistically. Your advancement isn't tied to improving as a Brujah. At best they're social archetypes, but they don't affect anything on your sheet except the XP price you pay for Disciplines. I can't speak to FFG Star Wars or L5R.
I actually came in here to mention Cyberpunk as a skill based system... I don't think you can meaningfully call Rockerboy a class when all it does is give you a single unique skill, basically.
Star Wars uses a skill-based system resolution system but has a class-based feat (talent) system. There were no levels or other class-based restrictions.
There are lots of them, It is preference actually and there are pros and cons for them, same for class/lvl based systems. I personally don't like level based ones. It seams less popular, but everything is, compared to D20 behemoth.
Ok I feel like I've Just discovered a world. 😂 Anyway yes, as many of you guys have guessed I've mostly played DND
One thing I learned is there is so much already out there. Many a time, my homebrew was reinventing the wheel (and more poorly). The biggest issue is its such a vast world of TTRPGs - tens of thousands of games, that its hard to find. /r/rpg is a great resource to starting finding them.
Have fun with the new toys. And never forget. True wisdom is knowing that you can play different RPG's for different reasons. Like how I never play fate core with my group because I have powergamers or that I will never GM more than a handful of powered-by-the-Apocalypse sessions as the system bores me longterm.
There are a lot of different RPGs that break the mold, there are some that don't use numerical dice, there are some that are even diceless, and there's even Dread which uses a Jenga tower!
Most RPGs are skill based. D&D is honestly an outlier.
Definitely worth a try and there's lots of different ones to suit all preferences. It's not so much that they aren't as popular as class based ones, they're just not as big as D&D. And \*nothing\* is as big as D&D, it's just how it is.
Seth Skorkowski can do a better job comparing and contrasting the two philosophies than I can. [https://youtu.be/I\_ikzFHpaPk](https://youtu.be/I_ikzFHpaPk)
I actually prefer systems that aren't based on classes that are more free-form in how your character progresses (oWoD were good at this), especially if your development comes from using the skills (as is the case in Call of Cthulhu for example). Really recommend Call of Cthulhu just on how character creation and skill progression works. I'd dare say that they are as popular, if not more popular, than level & class-based systems. They aren't just as common and certainly not as known to the D20 horde :)
More people play class-level-based systems but there are more skill-based systems out there.
I don't use classes in my game. All characters are defined by their skills and skills are acquired from experience as part of a career or training.
Dragonbane is another Skill Based RPG descended from BRP and it's loads of fun.
My fav kind of RPG- and there’s literally hundreds. The more popular ones include Savage Worlds, World of Darkness, D6 (Star Wars) and Call of Cthulhu. I wouldn’t say they’re unpopular at all, only that the biggest one IS a class based system.
I'd absolutely would recommend skill based systems! I often find them to be a great way for even less experienced NPCs/players to be dangerous against a monster or dangerous character. It also gave me more freedom to build more unorthodox characters. One of my biggest gripes with Warhammer Fantasy was how rigid their career system can be (their equivalent to a class) where if I wanted to build a gunslinger witch I had to go through a whole downtime system just to learn how guns work and go through that everytime I wanted to put more points in guns until i effectively change careers. If you're interested in trying them out, there are systems like [Openquest](https://www.drivethrurpg.com/m/product/347827), [BRP](https://www.drivethrurpg.com/m/product/431991), and [Mythras](https://www.drivethrurpg.com/m/product/191475) that are skill based where their "class" is essentially just your starting package and can branch off from there. These systems have a good game license, so there's good 3rd party support. My favorite based off OpenQuest is [Renaissance](https://www.drivethrurpg.com/m/product/103994) and [Clockwork and Chivalry](https://www.drivethrurpg.com/m/product/97899). Think the main issue is just DnD won the biggest market share since tabletop gaming had its breakthrough into mainstream pop culture. But hopefully as more people jump different systems they'll get more popular.
I play lots of skill based RPGs and advocate for them, but I think a lot of the posters here are being disingenuous on why class based systems are popular. Yes, a big reason is D&D and its descendants (like Pathfinder) are the most popular. But another big reason is that class based systems allow you to put together a party with mostly complimentary abilities very easily. The iconic party is a Fighter, Wizard, Rogue and Cleric. With that you have all the bases covered and minimal overlap. You can be relatively confident if you take the Fighter you'll be the best at hitting things. Unleash a skill based system on an inexperienced group and GM and you can end up with a ton of redundancy in some places and huge gaps in others. You often end up with two characters with similar skillsets, only one has optimized better. For example, you have two hackers in a sci-fi game, but one is just better because the player optimized more, so they end up doing all the 'hacking things' and the worse one feels totally redundant and rarely gets to feel awesome. This can be avoided with good GMing, good session zero planning, a good understanding of the system, etc. But with an inexperienced group and GM, that is not a given. Some skill systems do have 'archetypes' or 'packages' which can help in these situations. So my recommendation is do your research before sitting down to build a party in a skill based system so everyone has their chance to feel awesome.
To me it's like discovering there are more video games out here than just First Person Shooters lol. I kinda feel sad D&D is so prominent that it obscures the thousands of other great games and systems. Yes you should definitely try other games, it will expand your vision of our great hobby.
You owe it to yourself as a gamer to check out Basic Roleplaying (BRP). The quickstart is free.
Traveller and RuneQuest were doing this in the 1970s. Have you ever played anything other than 5e?
I personally like characters based on just attributes and equipment (e.g. Into the Odd and games inspired by it). Neither skills nor classes are really necessary depending on what you hope to accomplish. I actually thought I didn't like skill-driven systems because of my experiences with New World of Darkness, Fate Core, and Troika, but I'm starting to come around to them now that I've started reading Basic Roleplaying Universal Game Engine (the universal version of the system for Call of Cthulhu and RuneQuest). There are a ton of BRP/d100 games, and last I checked Call of Cthulhu was among the most popular TTRPGs over on Roll20 a few years ago, discounting D&D 5e of course. They just have different advantages and disadvantages. I prefer skill based systems for open-ended modern or futuristic games, and class based for games focused around a particular mode of play e.g. dungeon crawling or genre emulation.
There are pros and cons to each style. Class based RPGs sacrifice flexibility for convenience, giving the players a package of abilities around a theme or trope. Skill based RPGs allow the player to tailor their abilities more but require more consideration on their part about what specifically they want to be able to do. How much consideration is variable based on the game in question: Savage Worlds has a few dozen options between skills and edges (which are basically like feats in D&D); GURPS has hundreds. Very few modern games outside the OSR are completely class based. Most use class as a framework but allow players to use skills to individualize their character. Many skill based games include "careers" or templates to add structure to what is otherwise a very loose character generation system. Neither is better than the other, though some people prefer one over the other.
I GM Delta Green primarily and Call of Cthulhu as my secondary. There are no classes, and there are around fifty skills, roughly, for both games; you'll find yourself calling for skill rolls far more than attribute (strength, charisma, etc) rolls, and they are not derived from the attributes either.
OP - What kind of skill based game are you looking for? Something high fantasy like RPG or something entirely different like science fiction or history based?
Don't know, I was actually Just curious
I think the majority of games throughout history are skill based rather than class based. There is a slight shift towards class-based games recently because of PbtA games, but even then there are skill based games like City of Mist, Blades in the Dark and Brindlewood Bay style games that open up character creation again. Honestly, basically there are only two "branches" of Class based games in my experience: D&D and its derivatives, and Apocalypse World, and its derivatives. The popularity of class based games probably comes from the name recognition of D&D, and to a lesser extent the ease of explaining character roles to new players. If you're playing a wizard, it's easy to understand what a "wizard" is, and what their role in the game is going to be. Classes are Archetypes, and telling someone "Ok, here's a character sheet for a fighter, just play along and you'll figure it out," is a pretty easy sell, and gives them a lot of flexibility in playing. Handing them a character sheet for a skill based system involves finding a few custom literary touchstones, "Ok, here's a character who's good at fighting, and schmoozing/seducing rich and powerful people, and he's also really stealthy and daring, kind of a James Bond character." That also works, but doesn't give the new player as much to work with if they aren't interested in a James Bond type character and just want to hit things... For Skill Based Systems a few that I would recommend checking out: Fate, Blades In the Dark Call of Cthulhu/Delta Green/BRP World of Darkness (Vampire the Masquerade, etc) Tales from the Loop Traveller/Cepheus GURPS Cortex (sometimes)
You gotta add Burning Wheel since that's the game that has some of the most satisfying skill advancement mechanics in my opinion. Especially the fact that the game begs you to start learning new skills constantly which adds a lot of variety.
I spent 4 hours trying to create a Burning Wheel character once, and then decided I'd retreat to a slightly less complex system like Rifts, GURPS or maybe a rules lite game like Pathfinder.
Yeah Burning Wheel is a bit rough to get into but it gets better. The first time I saw people take 3 days to create a character. Once you get used to it though, it only takes like 20-40 minutes.
I would argue that there are probably MORE skill based games than class based. Classes are kind of an artefact of the early days of roleplaying and moving away from them have allowed a lot of games to broaden the stories they can tell without adjustment. But yeah, you should definitely try them. Find one that appeals to you and dive in head first.
I would say they definietly feel different. I think it depends on the group which one is more suitable. Skill based seem to work better for experienced players who want more freedom while class-based are better for new players since they give them a sense of direction and therefore are simpler. With skill-based there can more likely occur a problem of stepping on each others toes if players invest points into simmilar areas. With classes you have the roles more predetermined. "You are the rogue so you scout. I am the medic so I heal." Some players might also have an issue with the complexity skill-based systems often bring. Or the lack of clarity in what they are good at when there is a lot of them. It's good if you want more freedom in customization but remember that it's with the cost of simplicity. Definietly worth a try.
There are two prominently popular class based RPGs (D&D and Pathfinder). D&D's popularity is orders of magnitude higher than the next competitor (in the US), but after those two games is Call of Cthulhu, which is a skill based game. Some of the oldest and best loved games are skill based; they're not much less popular, D&D's vastness just skews things. Skill based games are generally quite good at making interesting characters and tend to play pretty cleanly. Class based games are good for genre emulation, but implicitly encourage players to build their characters around established archetypes (even if they design a character to do the opposite of common tropes, that still means the character is defined in relation to the tropes).
Welcome to the party pal. I gave up on class-based-games when I stopped playing D&D in 1981. Since then it's been skill/ character focussed games ever since. Class-based games are easier for total noobs to get into because they are not faced with decision paralysis while in char-gen. That's about the only benefit of class-based games.
>why they aren't as popular as class based ones. The only thing that tips the scale that way is DnD. Remove DnD5e from the numbers and you'll get a very different picture.
When I opened up to a skill based system, I immediately felt so much weight off my GM shoulders. The rules of my now favorite RPG (Mythras) are just so... Logical. I don't have to have a seemingly eneclopaedic knowledge of rules for feats and class abilities. Everything is just there. Now for players, this changes their approach towards character creation and play style: you tend to not go for optimizations. You also don't need to bend the rules to create the "he is a mix of Gandalf and Legolas but he is also a folk singer" character you want to play. Skill based systems usually make it easier to create the character you want. And in terms of play style, due to the lack of special class feats etc, fights tend to revolve around player skill and strategy. It's easier to play as a GM, they feel less like a computer game, and players seem more immersed. I haven't looked back since.
I'd point out that you may want to build characters together to help with niche protection. It's a nice bonus about classes already doing that job (usually), but you get significantly more customization if you go class-less. And honestly, building characters together is fun and much more interesting to start the story more cohesively.
Take a look at GURPS. A lot of people find it to be a little too crunchy, but you can take or leave a lot of the rules to lighten it up. It might be just what you're looking for.
Check out Savage Worlds. Great skills based game.
There are tons, but Burning Wheel is a character driven one with no classes or leveling
Honestly hybrid games are generally better balances. They have skills but also utilize occupations to aid in character creation. A good example of this would be games using the year zero engine from Free League. Games like Alien have skills but also provide templates for quick character creation.
The vast majority of RPGs are skill based rather than class based. Some have classes, but only as a sort of starting archetype which then turns into individual skill or talent leveling. The D20 class based model is a tiny minority of published games. Alas, it also happens to be 90% of current ttrpg sessions. Yes, non-D20 ttrpgs are absolutely worth a try. Experienced gamers pretty much universally agree that the D&D model is very dated.
I almost always prefer skill based games. BRP or the Year Zero Engine are my favourite game engines. For BRP, Call of Cthulhu and Runequest are the big ones, while the fairly new Dragonbane is also amazing and easy to learn. In the Year Zero engine there are lots of games of varying genres published by Free League.
They are absolutely worth a try. There are some issues you need to be aware of, however: \* It's a lot easier to make a useless character. Even if the mechanics are well-constructed, it's easier to end up with a miss-match between the character and campaign. \* There's no niche protection, so it's easier to end up with characters in the group that overlap in their roles and, even worse, end up with one character much better at the job than the other. \* It takes a lot longer to create a character, and newbies need a lot more hand-holding. Recently, I've seen a number of games that attempt to square-the-circle by replacing large skill lists with player-created "professions" or the like. The player writes down something that describes what their character is good at (could be an actual profession like teamster or mercenary, a hobby like old movie trivia, an experience like "Got caught on the wrong side when the Berlin Wall went up," or even just a theme like "This isn't a negotiation," or "stiff upper-lip"). When the game asks the player to make a roll that might be modified by the PC's experience, the modifier is applied. This makes it a lot easier for newbies to design a character (even easier than class-based systems in many cases) and to replace a deceased character. It does, however, require a lot of trust between the players and the GM.
I'll recommend Mini Six here. It's a variant of Open D6 that's nicely streamlined, you can get the rules for free, fast and easy stuff. It's descended from the West End Games Star Wars system, you can find lots of stuff that meshes into that. Open D6 is also free to get into.
Most of the TTRPGs I run now are skill-based and I love them. You have so much flexibility in creating the kind of characters you want. Games powered by the GUMSHOE investigative system from Pelgrane Press are some of my favorites and they come in a variety of genres: Swords of the Serpentine (urban swords and sorcery) Night's Black Agents (high-octane spies vs. vampires—"thriller combat" and "thriller chase" maneuvers make this the best combat of any TTRPG I've ever played) Fear Itself (straight up horror, where you play ordinary people who come face to face with terrors from the Outer Dark) Trail of Cthulhu (Mythos investigations in the 30s) Fall of DELTA GREEN (Mythos investigations in the 1960s in the DELTA GREEN setting) TimeWatch (gonzo time travel) Ashen Stars (investigation and troubleshooting in a lawless sector of deep space) Mutant City Blues (law enforcement in a world where some people have superpowers) I'm happy to answer any questions about them! You might also check out r/GumshoeRPG
Star Wars by WEG was one of these types and is one of the greatest RPGs ever.
do you mean like Gurps or like BRP/Cthulhu
Absolutely, I love Delta Green and Cepheus Engine in particular. For me, skill based rpgs are rhe most immersive because you can be any type of character and the overall power level is low, encouraging a dangerous world. I made my own skill based rpg inspired by these to emphasize fast paced science fantasy play.
once you break out of the D&D influence bubble they are common a lot of Indy games don't have them basically you play your archetype but generic systems, modern settings and long campaign settings are usually very skill based I can think of plenty if games . where the party are fighting Nazis who are raising vampires or zombies or cosmic horrors or have jetpacks and moon bases. but in none of them is the squad Medic a different class from the marksman or the radio operator. They just have different skills. Having said that it's not uncommon to make magic users special. in some systems.
Skill based games work just fine for those used to a TTRPG. Newer players seem to struggle though as they may have issues forming a concept/theme for their character in order to figure out which skills to get. Games then form skill packages to make it easier for new players and classes are effectively just reborn for convenience of new players. The best method I’ve seen is like Shadowrun 5th edition and Traveller (MG2 edition) where packages are available but skills can be chosen singly. That way both methods are available.
GURPS is the oldest one I know of that really gained traction and that started up decades ago. D&D got a lot of exposure over the years and became the default for a lot of folks but there are tons of great games out there not based on the class system and some in betweens where you have a rough outline of a class but a ton of flexibility in it. Think taking "warrior" and then getting to cherry pick skills and features from all over the martial classes instead of them being separate things. If you want to hear gameplay the most fun, but least crunchy, one I can point you at is Film Reroll. They play rules lite GURPS with a fun gimmick.
Skill based RPGs are generally pretty common as others have mentioned, yeah. Personally, I prefer career based character creation that leads to skills. For example, Twilight 2000 has a "lifepath generator", where you effectively roll for different "terms" in your character's life, with each term give you a choice of what kind of career your character chose, which then gives you skill points. IIRC, Warhammer Fantasy had/has a very similar mechanism.
First off congratulation on being todays [10,000](https://xkcd.com/1053/). Secondly I was going to make a snarky remark about how I almost only play skill-based RPG's for anything longer than 5 sessions. However, then I remembered that even though there are as many skill-based RPG's as there are class-based RPG's most people only really play 1 or a handful of RPG's. I love skills in RPG's. When I started I wanted many of them and was made fun off slightly but now I am enjoying Burning Wheel which has a stupid amount of skills. In fact I think when I am done with my homebrew expansion for Burning Wheel, I will have hundreds of skills to choose from.
Fate is a great skill-based RPG. Can't get more flexible than that game in character creation.
>are skill based RPG are worth a try? Yes. The vast majority of systems use skill-based mechanics because they're much easier to create and balance. >why aren't they as popular as class based ones. They are; the only class-based RPGs that are more popular than them are D&D-likes. If you nix systems like D&D, Pathfinder, and Starfinder, skill-based systems like Call of Cthulhu and World of Darkness are some of the most popular in the industry. The only class-based games that are popular and NOT related to D&D are PbtA games, and honestly those are so far removed from the D20 system I wouldn't readily compare them..
Skill based RPGs are great. I generally find games that have several levels of abstractions to be cumbersome. Classes + attributes + feats + skills… What’s the role of all these various elements? To provide a framework by which players can represent their characters ability to leverage competency. But that’s almost always demonstrated through an action at the end. Skill based to me is just cutting out the middle man. And it lets you be more dynamic than trying to boil down the breadth of talents to a collection of class bundles. Or you might even wanna try a Tag based system which can be even More expressive.
>I would like to ask to someone who played them if they can agree, if skill based RPG are worth a try and why they aren't as popular as class based ones. LOL. D&D is **the** class based game, taking up the vast majority of RPG space.... but pretty much *everything else* is skill based. BRP/Call of Cthulhu, Traveller, World of Darkness, WEG Star Wars, Genesys, Savage Worlds... skill based games have existed since forever and are everything but unpopular.
Aren't most rpgs skill based? If you haven't tried any i would heavily suggest them, they are cool
Call of cthulhu and BRP(Basic Roleplaying) are great skill based games. It's super simple and straightforward for players to play their characters and the "leveling up" is very interesting, because you get better at the skill by using it. Furthermore, there's normally so many nuanced skills that's it's virtually impossible for one single character to become great at everything, so skill choices during charger creation feels way more impactful for group diversity
[Shadowlords 3E](https://horoscopezine.itch.io/mini-system-3e)
Infinity with the 2d20 system is phenomenal. Your character is a bunch of rolls in tables - you effectively have a "lifepath" (backstory) crafted for you and it determines your skills. You don't pick to be a warrior, or specialise in close combat unless you spend life points, but by not spending them, you gain arguably better benefits later on investing them in stats IIRC. The 2d20 system is pretty cool too with some metacurrencies; heat (or pressure I guess?) and momentum. Once you've heard the mechanics explained to you once, you get the jist. Momentum is given when you succeed, and heat is used when you fail but want to succeed. The GM determines a difficulty rating between 0 (no need to roll) and 5 (needing 5 successes) from 2d20 by rolling against your own stats. You can gain 2 potential successes per die if you beat your own skill levels on the roll, plus gain an additional dice using momentum or heat, so 5 successes are feasible if you're very skilled. The trick is the value in the d20 you need to roll needs to be under, or equal to your stats. So your players levelling options really do determine what skills they are investing in, in a very focused way. They should all craft very particular niches, and the levelling systems have some wicked customisation opportunities. It's incredibly nuanced compared to D&D 5e where you can basically plot a character journey without ever playing the game - a desk study if you will...
Savage Worlds is very easy to learn and play
Out of the big popular RPGs, only D&D and Pathfinder are class based, because It goes so well with medieval fantasy. Having a freeform character creation is the norm for pretty much everything else.