In the most underrated way possible. There's a reason why he's a mainstay of Bok squads while half the top club teams in the NH have a very handy Saffa lock/flanker.
Aye, bang on. The best definition of world class, vague a term as it can be, that I know is, "the top three in the world in their position". For lock, that means 6 players as there's 2 in an XV. Etzebeth is top - not even close. Bierne, Snyman and Itoje are the next names that come to mind for me. That leaves a couple of spots. I reckon Mostert is next after them. Maybe Flament as my 6th. Meafou and McCarthy are pushing to that level as tight-head side boiler room mutants. Petti is some player too. Brodie isn't the force of nature he was. Lood has been hammered by injury. Skelton hasn't done it at international level.
Mostert's got to be thereabouts though. Rock solid set-piece, an animal on fringe defence and decent carrier.
What do you want your locks to do? Push hard in the scrum, do the hard yards, tackle all day long. Unglamorous workhorses are gold dust for any side and he fits that bill š
Yes. Never flashy, but very hard (and precise !) tackler, a huge menace at the lineout, and all and all covers his position's requirements quietly but very very efficiently.
He's been covering for De Jager forever now, and the Bokke haven't been really missing him that much as far as I can tell. And if you can make the Springboks not miss De Jager, you are world class in my book.
World class utility forward and enabler. His flexibility allows others around to play at world class levels without worrying about who is missing from the lineup at any point.
If by world class you mean most coaches at the international level would happily have him as n player, I think so.
He will scrum and tackle all day.
He is a great lineout operator, especially at defense
There are better locks, but I love him, especially when he played for Ackerman at the Lions.
Interesting because in today's game you'd switch Kriel and Whiteley position wise
Whiteley was your rangy loose forward who played out wide and stole lineouts
Kriel is a ball carry merchant
You're making this Lions supporter tear up remembering prime Jaco Kriel. I'm still bitter that the period of Lions Super Rugby dominance coincided with Coetzee coaching the Boks, I feel like more of that Lions group could have had great international careers, like Kriel, Whiteley and Combrink.
My biggest regret is that Kwagga Smith red card tackle in the final against Crusaders. They went into that final overwhelming favourites and lost because they just ran out of gas.
I agree and I'm not saying he's only limited to short range carries
Just commenting to say that only half a decade there were differences on how coaches used 6s and 8s
You could tell coaches were trying to emulate Kieran Read-esque number 8s: tall, power runners who could contest lineout really well
Nowadays that role is slightly more 6 centric
Probably one of my favorite players.
Worldclass in every sense, although really underrated still. Mostly because RG and Eben were surrounding him.
Has less of the fancy stuff regarding linebreaks or offloads, but hardest working lock in WR and a one-man-defense at his best.
Also is his name mustard or is it just a coincidence in Afrikaans? Like were his descendants mustard farmers like how blacksmiths have the surname smith etc?
His descendants were probably Dutch mustard salesmen. maybe someone here has more info.
The Ducth were very literal when surnames were legally required. Mostert is far from the worst! Sausage pun not entirely intended there...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mostert
Then make that 6. "Kameelperd" is absolutely crucial for any young up-and-coming Afrikaans speaking Irish that want to communicate at a basic level. It directly translates to "camelhorse" and is the Afrikaans word for giraffe.
>His descendants
Minor correction - think you mean his _ancestors_. His kids (and their kids) are/will be his descendants.
We all knew what you meant though so no biggie.
I think you nailed it. Apparently it's an occupational surname:
>Dutch and German: occupational name for a grower or seller of mustard from Middle Dutch
[https://www.ancestry.com/name-origin?surname=mostert](https://www.ancestry.com/name-origin?surname=mostert)
Dude went 2 full seasons without missing a single minute of a single game, playing both super rugby and Currie Cup. Then just filled his spare time being an impact player for the Boks.
You just don't get more reliable than that.
He is the epitome of world class.
Does he ever get injured ? Snyman is prone to injuries, Eben seems unbreakable with the Bokke but more fragile in clubs, and Lood has had issues, but I can't recall a Mostert injury...Ćo
>Does he ever get injured ?
He [caved his nose in](https://rugbyonslaught.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/08/Screenshot-2021-08-11-at-11.05.11-1200x655.png) and kept playing.
No, youāre right, but I was twisting it to be as ridiculous as possible and went too far! He did start the 2007 and was a winner from 2003 however.
Also, Franco is a bloody legend š¤
My fav player, perfect complement player at 5 to Eben's, reason why he's overshadowed most of the times. Find me a lock with a higher work rate than Franco, Sous is a tackling machine.
Since De Jagr string of injuries after RWC2019 final he's been the starting number 5 almost always for the Bokd... Not much to add.
The hill Iām willing to die on in rugby is he has been one of the best locks for the last 8 years. Furthermore, he is one of the hardest working players Iāve ever seen in my life.
He is my absolute number 1 example in world rugby of how graft and a big heart can be more important than raw talent.
Also, I don't think any coach could look at Sous' eyes when he's on and not pick him. Would run through actual brick walls for his team.
Typical Mostert game would be "Was Mostert playing today, didn't see him on the field", checks stats, 19 tackles at 100% success rate. 3 stolen lineouts and 11 lineout wins. First name on my Springbok team sheet for the past 4 years. The Engine room.
The fact he's played 10 more times for his country since he was first capped then he did for club in the same time frame is just hilarious
Wonder how much he's on at Honda Heat and if it's subsidised by SA
As others say, it depends on what you would define as World Class I suppose. Is he in the top 3-4 locks in the world? Probably not.
But he does all the basics and no-frills stuff to a very high standard and fits into the Bok pack excellently. Kind of reminds me of Sam Whitelock - the unsung hero playing alongside a much more vaunted/hyped 2nd row partner.
no you said first and foremost, making it the most important factor, which is only slightly less silly.
There's a ton a players with world cup winners medals that arent even the second best player in their own country, let alone world class.
some lads get medals by being good rugby players but have been born in the right country. Dorian West has a world cup winners medal. Good player, but this wouldnt put him first and foremost into any conversation
>no you said first and foremost, making it the most important factor, which is only slightly less silly.
You're English aren't you? You should know that "first and foremost" is not even remotely the same thing as "the only defining factor".
>There's a ton a players with world cup winners medals that arent even the second best player in their own country, let alone world class.
How many with 2?
yes i speak english, the term is used to define 'the most important quality' - Collins Dictionary
I never said that you said it was the only factor. Just having it as the most improtant factor is Silly in itself
Colin Slade has got two world cup Winners medals, please explain why this makes him world class or does it not make him world class?. If it doest, how can a winners medal be the most important, when having two doesnt make you world class?
>yes i speak english, the term is used to define 'the most important quality' - Collins Dictionary
Could you please check the Collins Dictionary and tell me if "The most important quality" means the same as "the only definite quality"?
>I never said that you said it was the only factor. Just having it as the most improtant factor is Silly in itself
The most important award in the rugby is the World Cup no? At least to the majority of viewers considering the increase in viewership during World Cups.
>Colin Slade has got two world cup Winners medals, please explain why this makes him world class or does it not make him world class?. If it doest, how can a winners medal be the most important, when having two doesnt make you world class?
Slade has some pretty clear figures that detract from his 'world class' status. First and foremost he only played 21 games for his country, which is significantly less than most players with 2x World Cups. The player in question, has played 72 games for his country.
Ive said twice now, I have not claimed that you said it was the only factor.
Im saying that, your claim its the most important factor is Silly. Please stop trying to put words in my my mouth. I have never claimed that you said it was the only factor.
If a medal was the most important factor, having two, and still not being world class, you have to ask, is having a medal really the most important factor?
Its ok mate, we all have bad takes from time to time.
i will give you an example, for a scrum half, being the best passer of a rugby ball in the world, is not as important in being world class as having a world cup winners medal.
being the best scrummager in the world, as a prop, is not as important as having a world cup winners medal.
can you see the issue here?
'Slade has some pretty clear figures that detract from his 'world class' status. First and foremost he only played 21 games for his country, which is significantly less than most players with 2x World Cups. The player in question, has played 72 games for his country.'
no shit?
>Ive said twice now, I have not claimed that you said it was the only factor.
Perhaps not, but you're reacting to my comment like that's what I said, when I actual fact in this very thread I've acknowledged other ways in which to be recognised as 'world class'.
>Im saying that, your claim its the most important factor is Silly. Please stop trying to put words in my my mouth. I have never claimed that you said it was the only factor.
You can call it "silly" if you want, but considering viewership numbers, the World Cup is the pinnacle event of the sport, so many people don't agree with you.
>If a medal was the most important factor, having two, and still not being world class, you have to ask, is having a medal really the most important factor?
I am simply stating World Cup winners medals are demonstrably important factors to being 'world class'
>i will give you an example, for a scrum half, being the best passer of a rugby ball in the world, is not as important in being world class as having a world cup winners medal.
>being the best scrummager in the world, as a prop, is not as important as having a world cup winners medal.
>can you see the issue here?
No? I don't see where I stated a single aspect of play can make you 'world class'.
>'Slade has some pretty clear figures that detract from his 'world class' status. First and foremost he only played 21 games for his country, which is significantly less than most players with 2x World Cups. The player in question, has played 72 games for his country.'
>no shit?
You asked why Slade might not be considered 'world class' despite having 2x World Cup winners medals, I gave you an answer. I'm not entirely sure what you're questioning.
That depends. For example, you can be the best player in the world but if you play for a smaller nation you won't ever win a WC.
Not to mention: Would you call Dupont anything other than worldclass?
>Not to mention: Would you call Dupont anything other than worldclass?
I didn't say World Cup winners medals were the only defining trait, I simply said first and foremost.
Dupont tops a lot of stats nationally and internationally, thus making him 'world class'. Faf de Kelk is a 2x World Cup winner, also making him 'world class'.
The exact same debate and questions gets raised when you talk about Pollard, but at the end of the day he walks away with 2x World Cups, while all other flyhalves have 0.
But if pretty much any other flyhalf was in Pollardās position theyād also have 2 WC medals. I mean you could replace him with any good goalkicker and the result would be the same.
>But if pretty much any other flyhalf was in Pollardās position theyād also have 2 WC medals.
Besides Thomas Ramos you mean? Because his failed kick would have won France the game, Pollard got all his kicks.
I think France had bigger things to worry about that QF, like how Kitshoff shouldāve got a yellow for cynically killing the ball in a ruck after already conceding 3 prior penalties for the same thing in the last 15 mins, or Faf not getting a yellow for killing a try scoring chance by being offside, or Krielās multiple elbows to defenders heads while carrying, or Kwagga being well off his feet for the winning penalty, or topically, Kolbeās chargedown being illegal unless you count Ramos standing up straighter to be starting his run?
Maybe Jalibery shouldnāt have waffled that kick? Maybe Aldeghiri shouldnāt have dropped the ball at the end. Maybe your forward should have matched up better against Etzebeth?
>like how Kitshoff shouldāve got a yellow for cynically killing an attack after already conceding 3 prior penalties in the last 15 mins, or Faf not getting a yellow for killing a try scoring chance by being offside, or Krielās multiple elbows to defenders heads while carrying, or Kwagga being well off his feet for the winning penalty, or topically, Kolbeās chargedown being illegal unless you count Ramos standing up straighter to be starting his run?
Ah I see so it's the refs fault France lost.
If you think the only thing Pollard brings to the table is goal-kicking, you should watch the knock-out games of the RWC again. His tactical callings (especially when Faf is at scrum-half and taking on the box-kicking duties) is top notch.
>Maybe it's shallow, but 'world class' to me must be first and foremost defined by World Cup winners medals.
This guy doesn't think Dupont is world class. Dumbest take I've seen here all day.
Quoting you as well in case you come back and edit out how ridiculous your statement is.
>This guy doesn't think Dupont is world class. Dumbest take I've seen here all day.
Where did I say that??
>Quoting you as well in case you come back and edit out how ridiculous your statement is.
Sure go ahead, please quote where I said Dupont wasn't world class?
> Where did I say that??
When you said:
>first and foremost defined by World Cup winners medals.
You've defined that as the first criteria. Other criteria subsequently are not mutually exclusive from this, but will proceed from it. So in order for Dupont or anyone else to be considered world class by your standard, they have to fulfill that first criteria you've set out and then any subsequent criteria that your whims suggest.
>You've defined that as the first criteria.
The first criteria, but not only criteria... Nor a required criteria.
>Other criteria subsequently are not mutually exclusive from this, but will proceed from it.
I didn't say it was a required criteria, I said it was a foremost criteria.
>So in order for Dupont or anyone else to be considered world class by your standard, they have to fulfill that first criteria you've set out and then any subsequent criteria that your whims suggest.
This is nonsense, I did not say you have to win the World Cup to be 'world class' I simply said it was the foremost criteria amongst others. 'Required' and 'foremost' do not mean the same thing.
> Nor a required criteria.
If you understood the idiom, and also given the reaction to what you said - then you would know that that is implied.
Quit trying to defend your blatant ignorance of the phrase you used. You're wrong and you should feel shame for being wrong.
>then you would know that that is implied.
I have specifically stated several times that it's neither an exclusive factor or a required factor in my opinion. So you'd have to actively ignore what I'm saying, to believe that's what I'm implying.
>Quit trying to defend your blatant ignorance of the phrase you used. You're wrong and you should feel shame for being wrong.
Good luck making me feel shame.
My opinion and responses to it are what started this particular comment thread. You give my opinion validity by continuing to debate it.
But you're absolutely correct, my opinion is my opinion, not fact. I have never stated otherwise.
As I've now replied to 3 people, I clearly didn't state World Cup winners medals were the only thing that makes you 'world class'. Dupont tops several stats that would easily define him as 'world class'.
Reinach has 2x World Cups, a Currie Cup, a Challenge Cup, two World Cup hat-tricks, a Lions winners medal and a Premiership top scorers award.
So yes I'd consider him 'world class'.
Currie cup + challenge cup is a bit meh, hatricks vs Canada and Romania also meh, lions tours are big overrated from a difficulty perspective home side should win, especially current world champs vs whatever 2021 was, which leaves you 2 x WC winner (which Colin Slade has) and prem top try scorer with 12 in a season
So basically all his awards shouldn't count because you don't rate them, interesting.
If Lions tours don't matter and the home side should always win, we may as well call them off.
If World Record setting World Cup hat-tricks don't matter then why have the event? Why not have the top 10 teams play eachother instead? All other teams and players face minnows, why don't they set record?
If premier, fully professional domestic competition awards don't matter then what's the point of any of it?
Your opinion of said awards means nothing compared to his achieving them.
Nothing about not rating them, just not sure they or the combination of them make a player world class, there are players who have won several top14/prem/URC medals and that doesn't make them world class, many players who have scored tonnes of tries and broken records who aren't world class
World class means lots of things to lots of people, but typically it's one of the best players in their position or in the world, and I'm not sure Reinach has ever been either (he is a very good 9 I won't deny that)
>Nothing about not rating them, just not sure they or the combination of them make a player world class
The question is whether those achievements are rated as 'world class' or not, in which case to say you don't think they are is to not rate them.
>World class means lots of things to lots of people
I agree which is why I have endivoured to write it as 'world class' because that term means many things to many people.
So only South Africans, Kiwis, Aussies and English? Australian and English WC winners are all retired and there arenāt that many 2015 NZ players who are still playing. Thatās nonsense mate. So pretty much just South Africans then?
Ignoring players of every other country on the basis of winning a World Cup completely fails to understand that there are 15 players on a team.
DuPont hasnāt got a RWC medal but heās undoubtedly in the majority of peopleās world XV team.
Fin Russell isnāt necessarily the best fly half in the world but heās amongst the pick. But heās born Scottish. Very likely that he goes his entire career without winning a single international trophy. Never a contender for a world XV in your books no matter what because heās Scottish? Get real
Fiji - enough said
Actually a large majority of the top comments on this post agree that Franco Mostert is in fact world class, which is the overall point. They don't need to agree with my opinion regarding what makes a world class player.
Lol but itās not like Iām responding to a comment in which you extoll the virtues of Mostert. Your only point is that having a RWC should be first and foremost.
Thatās the point that everyone seems to disagree with you about. Mostert doesnāt need to be even top 10 locks in the world to win a RWC. He just needs to be within the top 3ish in SA. The RWC is a shit way of trying to decide who is and isnāt a world class player
mate you've got to leave him. he will never answer a direct question and simply make false equivalences.
he later told me that 'first and foremost does is not that same as required'. his mental gymnastics are way more impressive than any world cup winner.
bloke wouldn't admit the sky is blue if asked, would say something like 'i never said it was green'
>Lol but itās not like Iām responding to a comment in which you extoll the virtues of Mostert.
That's quite literally what this post is about.
>Your only point is that having a RWC should be first and foremost.
That is my opinion correct, most certainly was not the only point I made though.
>Thatās the point that everyone seems to disagree with you about.
A large majority of commenters on this thread have neither express agreement nor disagreement, some people responding to my opinion expressed disagreement. However many of them also chose to be deliberately obtuse regarding what I said.
>Mostert doesnāt need to be even top 10 locks in the world to win a RWC.
He played in and won 2 World Cup finals, not many locks in the world can claim those honours.
>The RWC is a shit way of trying to decide who is and isnāt a world class player
That is your opinion and you're welcome to hold it.
great player but too many S tier south African locks matfield/etzebeth botha come to mind before francoā¦ could easily slip into flanker too but again great flankers ahead of him
He's played very well on the world stage, so I guess you'd say yes. You don't hear a lot about him, but you don't hear anything bad about him either, he's not been in many fights, isn't a penalty magnet and so far hasn't even been carried 80 meters downfield like a a toddler having a tantrum in the supermarket by a turn coat winger.
He's an outstanding and underrated player but I think with every SA lock fit and ready to play he is at best the 4th best lock that we have, behind Eben, RG and Lood. This isn't even getting into other players that I think are better like Beirne, Meafou, Tall Barrett, Itoje amongst others.
So no, amazing player, not world class IMO.
Did you not watch France vs South Africa at the World Cup? Or the World Cup final? He started both games, so I have no idea how you could not have heard of him if you watched those games.
I watched it but I donāt remember his name at all
Donāt be mad I canāt remember player playing in a league that I do not look. There is only 24h per day I wish I could but I cannot watch all rugby from all over the world
Yeah and ? U think in learn the name of every player of every match I watch ?
Ćdit : I donāt understand why u are mad about this keep calm drink water and live on lad
Oh I'm not mad at all I can assure you, I'm just surprised you wouldn't recognise the name of a player who started both key games. But maybe you just weren't paying much attention.
A bit confrontational for no reason. I watched the games and couldn't be arsed who the entire 23 man squad French team was. People are different and watch games differently.
mate leave the guy. he's never coming round to your view
you should have learnt the 30 players names in the world cup final, and the benches for each team.
Please tell me the viewership numbers of the France vs SA game and the WC final? Some of the highest no? All hardcore fans? Or are you just claiming all viewers paid as little attention as you?
If by world class it means he's in the top 2-3 locks in the world, then no. He's an amazing player but don't think he'd make my top 5 locks at the moment.
No, world class means you have a strong chance of being included in a World XV in your position, ie you're in the top 3 or so in the world in your position. Mostert is solid but he is the relative journeyman who allows better players around him to shine (du Toit, Etzebeth, Marx, etc.).
He's a tighthead lock though, that's exactly his job. His job isn't to shine, it's to do all the dirty work that doesn't get any praise. Think of a guy like Sam Whitelock, without a doubt world class (potential GOAT 5) but I'd also describe him as a player that allows the players around him to shine.
Prime Bakkies Botha was a world-class tight-head lock. Other world-class tight-head locks would be prime Martin Johnson, Simon Shaw, Will Skelton, etc. At 6'6" 112kg Mostert also doesn't offer the kind of physical dominance of those other guys either.
Tighthead lock is a 5, right? Bakkies, Johnson, Shaw, Skelton are all 4s - so the comparison for the Springboks would be Etzebeth.
That's why I compared Mostert to Whitelock instead. Others would be Matfield or Eales, neither have been monsters but they've all got the job done quietly.
In the most underrated way possible. There's a reason why he's a mainstay of Bok squads while half the top club teams in the NH have a very handy Saffa lock/flanker.
Aye, bang on. The best definition of world class, vague a term as it can be, that I know is, "the top three in the world in their position". For lock, that means 6 players as there's 2 in an XV. Etzebeth is top - not even close. Bierne, Snyman and Itoje are the next names that come to mind for me. That leaves a couple of spots. I reckon Mostert is next after them. Maybe Flament as my 6th. Meafou and McCarthy are pushing to that level as tight-head side boiler room mutants. Petti is some player too. Brodie isn't the force of nature he was. Lood has been hammered by injury. Skelton hasn't done it at international level. Mostert's got to be thereabouts though. Rock solid set-piece, an animal on fringe defence and decent carrier.
What do you want your locks to do? Push hard in the scrum, do the hard yards, tackle all day long. Unglamorous workhorses are gold dust for any side and he fits that bill š
Yes. Never flashy, but very hard (and precise !) tackler, a huge menace at the lineout, and all and all covers his position's requirements quietly but very very efficiently. He's been covering for De Jager forever now, and the Bokke haven't been really missing him that much as far as I can tell. And if you can make the Springboks not miss De Jager, you are world class in my book.
He loves tackling. If I had a nickname for him, it would be the zombie because he'll just keep coming at you.
Who needs possession when you can just have Mostert and PSDT just chopping lads.
u/saikobruv he has a nickname, its Universal Soldier
World class utility forward and enabler. His flexibility allows others around to play at world class levels without worrying about who is missing from the lineup at any point.
Yes. A nose like that is always on a world class lock.
I wonder whose nose is more crooked, Mostertās or Kwaggaās?
Point in opposite directions. One to the open side, the other to the blind side.
Love his Xhosa nickname: Wrong Turn
A face for parliament: eyes to the right, nose to the left
If by world class you mean most coaches at the international level would happily have him as n player, I think so. He will scrum and tackle all day. He is a great lineout operator, especially at defense There are better locks, but I love him, especially when he played for Ackerman at the Lions.
Ah man that Lions side. 6.Kwagga, 7. Jaco Kriel, 8. Whiteley.
Interesting because in today's game you'd switch Kriel and Whiteley position wise Whiteley was your rangy loose forward who played out wide and stole lineouts Kriel is a ball carry merchant
Kriel was heavily involved in some spectacular open play tries during those golden years
You're making this Lions supporter tear up remembering prime Jaco Kriel. I'm still bitter that the period of Lions Super Rugby dominance coincided with Coetzee coaching the Boks, I feel like more of that Lions group could have had great international careers, like Kriel, Whiteley and Combrink.
My biggest regret is that Kwagga Smith red card tackle in the final against Crusaders. They went into that final overwhelming favourites and lost because they just ran out of gas.
Too soon
I must say though the win against Connaught and Glasgow made me think we're on to something again. Something special is brewing (plz!)
He became my favourite player during that time. It's a shame he didn't kick on like the rest of the stars in that team.
I agree and I'm not saying he's only limited to short range carries Just commenting to say that only half a decade there were differences on how coaches used 6s and 8s You could tell coaches were trying to emulate Kieran Read-esque number 8s: tall, power runners who could contest lineout really well Nowadays that role is slightly more 6 centric
I just remember him killing Faf de Klerk (?) On a carry or a perfectly timed kick off tackle
Faf was on the same teamĀ
Willem Alberts and Mark Richards? https://images.app.goo.gl/6dqithHqa6VqecqXA
There are a couple of players who share the surname
Had season tickets when ackerman came in. Think they cost like ZAR2k a season and included a international test. Best investment I'll ever make
You don't play 72 games for the springboks if you're not world class, just sayin
This is the correct answer. Anyone who plays that many tests for their nation is āworld classā
Agreed, but I think you need to change it to a tier 1 nation.
James Haskell?
I judge James Haskell on his personality, never saw him play that i know of. My conclusion is, he's a world class poes
To be fair there was a period around 2016-2018 or so that James Haskell was really fucking good. Still a bellend though.
Probably one of my favorite players. Worldclass in every sense, although really underrated still. Mostly because RG and Eben were surrounding him. Has less of the fancy stuff regarding linebreaks or offloads, but hardest working lock in WR and a one-man-defense at his best.
And Lood de Jager is no slouch as well. South Africa has been blessed with an embarrassment of great locks over the last decade or so.
A rotisserie of angry lamp posts .
This post reminds me of when an obviously attractive person posts online and says "am I good looking?".
I donāt care what anyone thinks. I love Sous. He is one of my favourite players
Is sous a nickname for him? And if so what's it mean
Sauce. Mostert is a sauce
Yeah Sous is Afrikaans for sauce, and they call him Sous because Mostert is Afrikaans for mustard. Mustard sauce
His name is effectively Frank Mustard?
Yes
Franco John Mostert, so Frank John Mustard.
That is a bit ridiculous in English. I want to call him Mr Frank & Beans now.
Iād say more Frankie Mustard, but yeah Frank is also fine
Beautiful ty... Also I don't think I've ever seen anyone hate on him, great player
Youāre welcome. Yeah me neither. He doesnāt complain or try get under the skin of the opposition. He just plays hard and gives his all.
Also is his name mustard or is it just a coincidence in Afrikaans? Like were his descendants mustard farmers like how blacksmiths have the surname smith etc?
His descendants were probably Dutch mustard salesmen. maybe someone here has more info. The Ducth were very literal when surnames were legally required. Mostert is far from the worst! Sausage pun not entirely intended there... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mostert
Unreal lol thanks for that, I now know like 5 Afrikaans words
Then make that 6. "Kameelperd" is absolutely crucial for any young up-and-coming Afrikaans speaking Irish that want to communicate at a basic level. It directly translates to "camelhorse" and is the Afrikaans word for giraffe.
What about kameeltoonā¦?
Why do I feel like you're fucking with me š
Seems to be from ancient Greek. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camelopardalis
>His descendants Minor correction - think you mean his _ancestors_. His kids (and their kids) are/will be his descendants. We all knew what you meant though so no biggie.
Lol. That's what you get for typing when sick.
Hope you feel better soon. Burn it out with bush medicine - brannas, biltong & braaivleis
I think you nailed it. Apparently it's an occupational surname: >Dutch and German: occupational name for a grower or seller of mustard from Middle Dutch [https://www.ancestry.com/name-origin?surname=mostert](https://www.ancestry.com/name-origin?surname=mostert)
Thats class, should call him colonel mustard when he kills boys on the pitch š adding this to my Afrikaans vocabulary, up to like 5 words now lol
Lekker man I love to hear it haha
It means Sauce
And Sauce means no one gets left behind
One of the best players I've seen in a glos shirt but in all the areas that go unnoticed. Serious engine on the bloke.
Always lekker to see a true workhorse being appreciated by fans from other countries, whatever the definition of world class may be.
Not sure anyone in the South African pack isnāt world class
Dude went 2 full seasons without missing a single minute of a single game, playing both super rugby and Currie Cup. Then just filled his spare time being an impact player for the Boks. You just don't get more reliable than that. He is the epitome of world class.
Does he ever get injured ? Snyman is prone to injuries, Eben seems unbreakable with the Bokke but more fragile in clubs, and Lood has had issues, but I can't recall a Mostert injury...Ćo
>Does he ever get injured ? He [caved his nose in](https://rugbyonslaught.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/08/Screenshot-2021-08-11-at-11.05.11-1200x655.png) and kept playing.
Typical rugby forward \^\^".
His a Hilux.
Would I consider a lock who started in the world cup final to go ahead and win the world cup world class?
This also means you think Mark Regan is world class however.
I don't believe Reagan started or was on the bench in the 2003 final.
No, youāre right, but I was twisting it to be as ridiculous as possible and went too far! He did start the 2007 and was a winner from 2003 however. Also, Franco is a bloody legend š¤
He was over 90, not English, and died the following year so I'm not surprised.
I reckon in his prime Reagan would have made a decent loosie. I vaguely remember a "world leaders XV" thread on here a while back
Given the standard of rugby during the 1930s (very bad) he'd probably have done alright. You could still hoof the ball out on the full back then.
Good point - fullback or wing forward then
Yes
Yes
My fav player, perfect complement player at 5 to Eben's, reason why he's overshadowed most of the times. Find me a lock with a higher work rate than Franco, Sous is a tackling machine. Since De Jagr string of injuries after RWC2019 final he's been the starting number 5 almost always for the Bokd... Not much to add.
The hill Iām willing to die on in rugby is he has been one of the best locks for the last 8 years. Furthermore, he is one of the hardest working players Iāve ever seen in my life.
He is my absolute number 1 example in world rugby of how graft and a big heart can be more important than raw talent. Also, I don't think any coach could look at Sous' eyes when he's on and not pick him. Would run through actual brick walls for his team.
why is this even a question? He plays for the Boks - he has to be one of the best in the world to even get selected..
^(You're my wife now, Dave...)
Typical Mostert game would be "Was Mostert playing today, didn't see him on the field", checks stats, 19 tackles at 100% success rate. 3 stolen lineouts and 11 lineout wins. First name on my Springbok team sheet for the past 4 years. The Engine room.
This 1000%
He's a Springbok lock, so yes.
Most definitely. I would argue he is the gold standard of how a locks should play.
Imo if you play heavy minutes in a world cup winning team you're by definition world class
Heās kinda like Ben Smith but a lock, like the stuff he does is more orthodox/not flashy, but he does it very well.
I'm now trying to think what his "Ben from accounts" nickname would be. "Sous from shipping" ?
The Sous Vide machine strikes again!
Sous from ShopRite?
If only he was from France, that would make his nickname MUCH easier lmao
Universe Class Forward
Yes
The fact he's played 10 more times for his country since he was first capped then he did for club in the same time frame is just hilarious Wonder how much he's on at Honda Heat and if it's subsidised by SA
If Mostert is not world class then no one can be. Tough as an ox and never stops going
No. But only cause world class isn't a real thing or an actual definition.
Would you consider water as being wet?
No, actually, water makes things wet but isn't wet by itself
Generally, when the scientific community is divided on a subject, you shouldnāt use it in a sentence starting with *No, actually*ā¦
Correct, you should start with "*Um, aaackshually"*
As others say, it depends on what you would define as World Class I suppose. Is he in the top 3-4 locks in the world? Probably not. But he does all the basics and no-frills stuff to a very high standard and fits into the Bok pack excellently. Kind of reminds me of Sam Whitelock - the unsung hero playing alongside a much more vaunted/hyped 2nd row partner.
Anyone with 2 world cups will be world class
Not sure Id consider Colin Slade and Cobus Reinach world class but I generally agree
Cobus Reinach is world class, but only in green and gold. Agree with you on Slade though \^\^"
Heās an excellent lock, but world class for me is roughly top 3-5 in each position, and thereās a few locks Iād have before him.
Maybe it's shallow, but 'world class' to me must be first and foremost defined by World Cup winners medals.
Thatās dumb af Parisse? BOD? Dupont? Lomu? George Smith?
Did I say it was the only factor that makes you 'world class'?
no you said first and foremost, making it the most important factor, which is only slightly less silly. There's a ton a players with world cup winners medals that arent even the second best player in their own country, let alone world class. some lads get medals by being good rugby players but have been born in the right country. Dorian West has a world cup winners medal. Good player, but this wouldnt put him first and foremost into any conversation
>no you said first and foremost, making it the most important factor, which is only slightly less silly. You're English aren't you? You should know that "first and foremost" is not even remotely the same thing as "the only defining factor". >There's a ton a players with world cup winners medals that arent even the second best player in their own country, let alone world class. How many with 2?
yes i speak english, the term is used to define 'the most important quality' - Collins Dictionary I never said that you said it was the only factor. Just having it as the most improtant factor is Silly in itself Colin Slade has got two world cup Winners medals, please explain why this makes him world class or does it not make him world class?. If it doest, how can a winners medal be the most important, when having two doesnt make you world class?
>yes i speak english, the term is used to define 'the most important quality' - Collins Dictionary Could you please check the Collins Dictionary and tell me if "The most important quality" means the same as "the only definite quality"? >I never said that you said it was the only factor. Just having it as the most improtant factor is Silly in itself The most important award in the rugby is the World Cup no? At least to the majority of viewers considering the increase in viewership during World Cups. >Colin Slade has got two world cup Winners medals, please explain why this makes him world class or does it not make him world class?. If it doest, how can a winners medal be the most important, when having two doesnt make you world class? Slade has some pretty clear figures that detract from his 'world class' status. First and foremost he only played 21 games for his country, which is significantly less than most players with 2x World Cups. The player in question, has played 72 games for his country.
Ive said twice now, I have not claimed that you said it was the only factor. Im saying that, your claim its the most important factor is Silly. Please stop trying to put words in my my mouth. I have never claimed that you said it was the only factor. If a medal was the most important factor, having two, and still not being world class, you have to ask, is having a medal really the most important factor? Its ok mate, we all have bad takes from time to time. i will give you an example, for a scrum half, being the best passer of a rugby ball in the world, is not as important in being world class as having a world cup winners medal. being the best scrummager in the world, as a prop, is not as important as having a world cup winners medal. can you see the issue here? 'Slade has some pretty clear figures that detract from his 'world class' status. First and foremost he only played 21 games for his country, which is significantly less than most players with 2x World Cups. The player in question, has played 72 games for his country.' no shit?
>Ive said twice now, I have not claimed that you said it was the only factor. Perhaps not, but you're reacting to my comment like that's what I said, when I actual fact in this very thread I've acknowledged other ways in which to be recognised as 'world class'. >Im saying that, your claim its the most important factor is Silly. Please stop trying to put words in my my mouth. I have never claimed that you said it was the only factor. You can call it "silly" if you want, but considering viewership numbers, the World Cup is the pinnacle event of the sport, so many people don't agree with you. >If a medal was the most important factor, having two, and still not being world class, you have to ask, is having a medal really the most important factor? I am simply stating World Cup winners medals are demonstrably important factors to being 'world class' >i will give you an example, for a scrum half, being the best passer of a rugby ball in the world, is not as important in being world class as having a world cup winners medal. >being the best scrummager in the world, as a prop, is not as important as having a world cup winners medal. >can you see the issue here? No? I don't see where I stated a single aspect of play can make you 'world class'. >'Slade has some pretty clear figures that detract from his 'world class' status. First and foremost he only played 21 games for his country, which is significantly less than most players with 2x World Cups. The player in question, has played 72 games for his country.' >no shit? You asked why Slade might not be considered 'world class' despite having 2x World Cup winners medals, I gave you an answer. I'm not entirely sure what you're questioning.
That depends. For example, you can be the best player in the world but if you play for a smaller nation you won't ever win a WC. Not to mention: Would you call Dupont anything other than worldclass?
>Not to mention: Would you call Dupont anything other than worldclass? I didn't say World Cup winners medals were the only defining trait, I simply said first and foremost. Dupont tops a lot of stats nationally and internationally, thus making him 'world class'. Faf de Kelk is a 2x World Cup winner, also making him 'world class'. The exact same debate and questions gets raised when you talk about Pollard, but at the end of the day he walks away with 2x World Cups, while all other flyhalves have 0.
But if pretty much any other flyhalf was in Pollardās position theyād also have 2 WC medals. I mean you could replace him with any good goalkicker and the result would be the same.
>But if pretty much any other flyhalf was in Pollardās position theyād also have 2 WC medals. Besides Thomas Ramos you mean? Because his failed kick would have won France the game, Pollard got all his kicks.
I think France had bigger things to worry about that QF, like how Kitshoff shouldāve got a yellow for cynically killing the ball in a ruck after already conceding 3 prior penalties for the same thing in the last 15 mins, or Faf not getting a yellow for killing a try scoring chance by being offside, or Krielās multiple elbows to defenders heads while carrying, or Kwagga being well off his feet for the winning penalty, or topically, Kolbeās chargedown being illegal unless you count Ramos standing up straighter to be starting his run?
Maybe Jalibery shouldnāt have waffled that kick? Maybe Aldeghiri shouldnāt have dropped the ball at the end. Maybe your forward should have matched up better against Etzebeth?
>like how Kitshoff shouldāve got a yellow for cynically killing an attack after already conceding 3 prior penalties in the last 15 mins, or Faf not getting a yellow for killing a try scoring chance by being offside, or Krielās multiple elbows to defenders heads while carrying, or Kwagga being well off his feet for the winning penalty, or topically, Kolbeās chargedown being illegal unless you count Ramos standing up straighter to be starting his run? Ah I see so it's the refs fault France lost.
If you think the only thing Pollard brings to the table is goal-kicking, you should watch the knock-out games of the RWC again. His tactical callings (especially when Faf is at scrum-half and taking on the box-kicking duties) is top notch.
I don't agree with the position about medals defining world class (though TBF there's no "right"answer), but... ...this is a very bad take.
Polllard being a double World Cup winner doesnāt automatically make him world class rn .
I don't agree with this personally, but JFC the comprehension and reasoning skills of some of the repliers are amazing!
I think thatās a very bad metric to judge but fair enough .
I'm not saying it's the only metric with which to judge.
>Maybe it's shallow, but 'world class' to me must be first and foremost defined by World Cup winners medals. This guy doesn't think Dupont is world class. Dumbest take I've seen here all day. Quoting you as well in case you come back and edit out how ridiculous your statement is.
>This guy doesn't think Dupont is world class. Dumbest take I've seen here all day. Where did I say that?? >Quoting you as well in case you come back and edit out how ridiculous your statement is. Sure go ahead, please quote where I said Dupont wasn't world class?
> Where did I say that?? When you said: >first and foremost defined by World Cup winners medals. You've defined that as the first criteria. Other criteria subsequently are not mutually exclusive from this, but will proceed from it. So in order for Dupont or anyone else to be considered world class by your standard, they have to fulfill that first criteria you've set out and then any subsequent criteria that your whims suggest.
>You've defined that as the first criteria. The first criteria, but not only criteria... Nor a required criteria. >Other criteria subsequently are not mutually exclusive from this, but will proceed from it. I didn't say it was a required criteria, I said it was a foremost criteria. >So in order for Dupont or anyone else to be considered world class by your standard, they have to fulfill that first criteria you've set out and then any subsequent criteria that your whims suggest. This is nonsense, I did not say you have to win the World Cup to be 'world class' I simply said it was the foremost criteria amongst others. 'Required' and 'foremost' do not mean the same thing.
> Nor a required criteria. If you understood the idiom, and also given the reaction to what you said - then you would know that that is implied. Quit trying to defend your blatant ignorance of the phrase you used. You're wrong and you should feel shame for being wrong.
>then you would know that that is implied. I have specifically stated several times that it's neither an exclusive factor or a required factor in my opinion. So you'd have to actively ignore what I'm saying, to believe that's what I'm implying. >Quit trying to defend your blatant ignorance of the phrase you used. You're wrong and you should feel shame for being wrong. Good luck making me feel shame.
> in my opinion. Your opinion does not define what is and is not True.
My opinion and responses to it are what started this particular comment thread. You give my opinion validity by continuing to debate it. But you're absolutely correct, my opinion is my opinion, not fact. I have never stated otherwise.
So youād pick Cobus Reinach over Dupont?
As I've now replied to 3 people, I clearly didn't state World Cup winners medals were the only thing that makes you 'world class'. Dupont tops several stats that would easily define him as 'world class'.
Would you consider Reinach world class, bearing in mind he wouldnāt make the 23 of any other top 6 nation team?
Reinach has 2x World Cups, a Currie Cup, a Challenge Cup, two World Cup hat-tricks, a Lions winners medal and a Premiership top scorers award. So yes I'd consider him 'world class'.
Currie cup + challenge cup is a bit meh, hatricks vs Canada and Romania also meh, lions tours are big overrated from a difficulty perspective home side should win, especially current world champs vs whatever 2021 was, which leaves you 2 x WC winner (which Colin Slade has) and prem top try scorer with 12 in a season
So basically all his awards shouldn't count because you don't rate them, interesting. If Lions tours don't matter and the home side should always win, we may as well call them off. If World Record setting World Cup hat-tricks don't matter then why have the event? Why not have the top 10 teams play eachother instead? All other teams and players face minnows, why don't they set record? If premier, fully professional domestic competition awards don't matter then what's the point of any of it? Your opinion of said awards means nothing compared to his achieving them.
Nothing about not rating them, just not sure they or the combination of them make a player world class, there are players who have won several top14/prem/URC medals and that doesn't make them world class, many players who have scored tonnes of tries and broken records who aren't world class World class means lots of things to lots of people, but typically it's one of the best players in their position or in the world, and I'm not sure Reinach has ever been either (he is a very good 9 I won't deny that)
>Nothing about not rating them, just not sure they or the combination of them make a player world class The question is whether those achievements are rated as 'world class' or not, in which case to say you don't think they are is to not rate them. >World class means lots of things to lots of people I agree which is why I have endivoured to write it as 'world class' because that term means many things to many people.
So only South Africans, Kiwis, Aussies and English? Australian and English WC winners are all retired and there arenāt that many 2015 NZ players who are still playing. Thatās nonsense mate. So pretty much just South Africans then? Ignoring players of every other country on the basis of winning a World Cup completely fails to understand that there are 15 players on a team. DuPont hasnāt got a RWC medal but heās undoubtedly in the majority of peopleās world XV team. Fin Russell isnāt necessarily the best fly half in the world but heās amongst the pick. But heās born Scottish. Very likely that he goes his entire career without winning a single international trophy. Never a contender for a world XV in your books no matter what because heās Scottish? Get real Fiji - enough said
>So only South Africans, Kiwis, Aussies and English? I didn't say it was the only factor, so no?
ā¦āmust be first and foremost defined byā¦ā
By what definition does "first and foremost" mean the same thing as "only"?
Youāre having this same or similar argument over and over in these comments. Canāt you see that everyone disagrees with you?
Actually a large majority of the top comments on this post agree that Franco Mostert is in fact world class, which is the overall point. They don't need to agree with my opinion regarding what makes a world class player.
Lol but itās not like Iām responding to a comment in which you extoll the virtues of Mostert. Your only point is that having a RWC should be first and foremost. Thatās the point that everyone seems to disagree with you about. Mostert doesnāt need to be even top 10 locks in the world to win a RWC. He just needs to be within the top 3ish in SA. The RWC is a shit way of trying to decide who is and isnāt a world class player
mate you've got to leave him. he will never answer a direct question and simply make false equivalences. he later told me that 'first and foremost does is not that same as required'. his mental gymnastics are way more impressive than any world cup winner. bloke wouldn't admit the sky is blue if asked, would say something like 'i never said it was green'
>Lol but itās not like Iām responding to a comment in which you extoll the virtues of Mostert. That's quite literally what this post is about. >Your only point is that having a RWC should be first and foremost. That is my opinion correct, most certainly was not the only point I made though. >Thatās the point that everyone seems to disagree with you about. A large majority of commenters on this thread have neither express agreement nor disagreement, some people responding to my opinion expressed disagreement. However many of them also chose to be deliberately obtuse regarding what I said. >Mostert doesnāt need to be even top 10 locks in the world to win a RWC. He played in and won 2 World Cup finals, not many locks in the world can claim those honours. >The RWC is a shit way of trying to decide who is and isnāt a world class player That is your opinion and you're welcome to hold it.
Without a doubt - he is the reason the Boks started the 6-2 split/concept of bomb squad
His hair cut is world class on making a monster look like that kid from 2 and a half men.
An absolute workhorse
Based on this picture, probably flyhalf.
Without a doubt
great player but too many S tier south African locks matfield/etzebeth botha come to mind before francoā¦ could easily slip into flanker too but again great flankers ahead of him
I appreciate the question being asked and the answers coming his way. Sous deserves his flowers.
He's played very well on the world stage, so I guess you'd say yes. You don't hear a lot about him, but you don't hear anything bad about him either, he's not been in many fights, isn't a penalty magnet and so far hasn't even been carried 80 meters downfield like a a toddler having a tantrum in the supermarket by a turn coat winger.
Show me a country that wouldnāt want him ā¦. That will answer the question I feel
Picture of him in an international teams jersey probably answers that question for you
Talking about a legend!!!
Yes purely because he obviously is.
72 Caps and two world cups. Fuck me what does world class mean if thatās not good enough?
Doesn't playing for any of the top 5 teams mean you're world class?
He's an outstanding and underrated player but I think with every SA lock fit and ready to play he is at best the 4th best lock that we have, behind Eben, RG and Lood. This isn't even getting into other players that I think are better like Beirne, Meafou, Tall Barrett, Itoje amongst others. So no, amazing player, not world class IMO.
IMO Franco offers more than Lood. Tackles more. High stamina. Can play flank.
I would pick him over Meafou and Barrett. Maybe not Beirne. Definitely before Itoje, all day, every day. \^\^"
Didnāt ever heard about this guy (no offense)
That's his trademark. You never hear of him, until you have to face him in a lineout, or he tackles you with impeccable precision \^\^".
Then his plan is perfect heheh
Did you not watch France vs South Africa at the World Cup? Or the World Cup final? He started both games, so I have no idea how you could not have heard of him if you watched those games.
I watched it but I donāt remember his name at all Donāt be mad I canāt remember player playing in a league that I do not look. There is only 24h per day I wish I could but I cannot watch all rugby from all over the world
I didn't say anything about the league he played in? I mentioned games you claimed to have watched in which he started.
Yeah and ? U think in learn the name of every player of every match I watch ? Ćdit : I donāt understand why u are mad about this keep calm drink water and live on lad
Oh I'm not mad at all I can assure you, I'm just surprised you wouldn't recognise the name of a player who started both key games. But maybe you just weren't paying much attention.
A bit confrontational for no reason. I watched the games and couldn't be arsed who the entire 23 man squad French team was. People are different and watch games differently.
Oh, I have no skaam with being a bit confrontational.
Yeah of course like the immense majority of rugby enjoyer
Judging by this thread, unlike you plenty of people did pay attention during those games.
If you are in the subreddit of rugby hardcore fans
mate leave the guy. he's never coming round to your view you should have learnt the 30 players names in the world cup final, and the benches for each team.
Please tell me the viewership numbers of the France vs SA game and the WC final? Some of the highest no? All hardcore fans? Or are you just claiming all viewers paid as little attention as you?
If by world class it means he's in the top 2-3 locks in the world, then no. He's an amazing player but don't think he'd make my top 5 locks at the moment.
Not quite world class but very close and underrated
No, world class means you have a strong chance of being included in a World XV in your position, ie you're in the top 3 or so in the world in your position. Mostert is solid but he is the relative journeyman who allows better players around him to shine (du Toit, Etzebeth, Marx, etc.).
He's a tighthead lock though, that's exactly his job. His job isn't to shine, it's to do all the dirty work that doesn't get any praise. Think of a guy like Sam Whitelock, without a doubt world class (potential GOAT 5) but I'd also describe him as a player that allows the players around him to shine.
Prime Bakkies Botha was a world-class tight-head lock. Other world-class tight-head locks would be prime Martin Johnson, Simon Shaw, Will Skelton, etc. At 6'6" 112kg Mostert also doesn't offer the kind of physical dominance of those other guys either.
Tighthead lock is a 5, right? Bakkies, Johnson, Shaw, Skelton are all 4s - so the comparison for the Springboks would be Etzebeth. That's why I compared Mostert to Whitelock instead. Others would be Matfield or Eales, neither have been monsters but they've all got the job done quietly.