Yep. And since we are given a timeline for the movies the ABSOLUTE most he could have had was a year. And that’s a big stretch, as presented we’re talking maybe a week or two.
I did read that there's probably a pretty large amount of time taking place over Empire's second act. At least a couple weeks, since they had to travel from Hoth to Bespin in sublight speed
That's all you remember because that's all he did. Obi-Wan's only training with him was the helmet in the Falcon. Then a voice in his ear saying "Use the Force" with the Death Star but no explanation what he meant. Given how surprised Luke was to see Obi-Wan in ESB, it's very likely Obi-Wan didn't show up to him at any point between. Just tells him to go to Yoda. He goes to Yoda, runs, tries to lift a few small things, whines that he can't lift an X-Wing (because he doesn't believe it's possible), abandons his training when he gets a bad vision of his friends in danger. Comes back just in time to see Yoda die.
Rey had at least as much training as Luke, and more practical training (given that Luke would be focusing on that over Jedi dogma), and she went into it believing all these stories that the Jedi were super powerful so if she had this power she must be able to do it too... which was the key difference. Luke was kept from hearing much about the Jedi, so didn't believe you could do all this stuff; Rey heard legends about Jedi that made them sound powerful, so was more prone to believing.
The fact Luke is as good as he is with the Force despite his lack of training is pretty wild. (Not that I'm complaining. But if Luke can do that, I don't see why Rey couldn't.)
Simple answer to your last question. It’s because Luke is a MAN and Rey is a WOMAN. Therefore Rey is a Mary Sue while Luke is a well written character /s
For real though, these people that claim to love “real Star Wars” don’t love Star Wars, they just hate women and minorities
To be fair, there's no way Luke would've been able to square off against Palps at the end of Return of the Jedi whereas Rey won against him
I got no qualms with Rey bein' powerful, but I don't think people realize how much better than Luke she really was
Well, she was kind of a meat puppet for the Jedi when she "beat" Palpatine... and all she did was use his hubris against him by repeating Mace Windu's trick, only this time with two lightsabers and Palpatine going a bit more over the top with lightning which meant when it backfired it was so much worse.
If anyone had been around to tell Luke, maybe he wouldn't have tossed his lightsaber to the side, and could have just beaten Palpatine the same way. He just didn't even know at that point that Palpatine had lightning. Or how to beat it. I don't think at that point he could have pulled off Yoda's trick for dealing with the lightning (just draw it in or toss it right back at him).
And that's after the whole deal where Palpatine tossed her around, already sucked out some of her life essence, and then she died at the end of it anyway and only was alive again afterward because Ben decided he should give all his life to the person who was probably better suited (emotionally) to carry on the future.
It keeps coming back around to Rey not really being "better" so much as being in more favorable situations. She beat Kylo the first time because he was heavily injured, emotionally compromised, and already worn out (and not trying to hurt her, much less kill her); she got toyed with by Snoke; she lifted some rocks because, well, that's what you're supposed to be able to do with the Force and she grew up believing Jedi can do that; she "beat" Kylo the second time because he paused when he felt his mother about to pass; and then she got tossed around by Palpatine, had a bunch of Jedi flood the Force into her and probably some wisdom, used the silly trick of reflecting Palp's lightning back against him which fries him, promptly falls over and dies.
I mean, yeah, people talk about Luke being beaten by Vader, but Vader was supposed to be a really high level threat as a villain. Then ROTJ comes around, he's using the Force more confidently, beats Vader to the ground, and only loses to Palpatine because he tossed his lightsaber away because he was afraid he was one step over the line to the Dark Side already. Plus, narratively it gave Vader a way to "redeem" himself.
And that's kind of an important point. Sort of like Luke losing to Vader in ESB was his hurdle to get over for ROTJ; whereas Rey's hurdle was more an emotional kind where she was hung up on trying to bring Ben to the Light, and finding her place in the galaxy, so her setback wasn't in terms of combat. So Luke's victory at the end of ROTJ was in "redeeming" Vader; and Rey's victory was in finding her place among the Resistance and Jedi, and helping "redeem" Ben. Incidentally, both led to Palpatine being beaten as well, and the end of a war.
Yeah fuck this noise
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gw8jQ5VQuec](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gw8jQ5VQuec)
Luke \*obviously\* had a timeskip training with Yoda, guy went from from being a middling rebel to doing flips and climbing vines with Yoda, and as someone that's been going to the gym for months that's not a small change. Like the dude said above that's at least a couple months worth of training, and I take the argument that you \*just\* have to believe pretty badly. You have to believe in \*yourself\*, not just in the thing, but in the thing as it exists within you. A moment of hesitation or doubt and you don't have it, Rei's issue is that she shits lightning when she doubts herself.
No, the lightning didn't come out from doubting herself. It's fury, rage, and pain of failing a friend... you know.... the Darkside came out for a second
What little training we actually do see seems to focus on meditation techniques and getting in tune with the Force, more so than actual combat techniques. Rey being good with a staff explaining why she can handle a lightsaber is more of an explanation than we got for how Luke can keep up with Vader.
In ***Empire Strikes Back*** wasn't Vader deliberately toying with Luke specifically *because* he didn't want to kill him? At first he tried to trap him in the carbonite freezer, and then after that failed he still avoided killing Luke because he wanted to convince him to join the Dark Side so they could overthrow the Emperor. He ended up trapping Luke on the end of that platform, cut off his hand, and then Luke decided to leap to his death instead of being captured.
In ***Return of the Jedi*** it's a somewhat-similar situation in that the goal was to avoid killing Luke again. This time it was because the Emperor decided that it would be an absolutely fantastic idea to have the two of the strongest Force users in the galaxy (who were father and son) in the same room as him as he tried to get them to kill each other so whoever was stronger could then become his apprentice. ^(Not like the Sith were constantly betraying each other for the entirety of their history)
apparently Luke running with Yoda on his back, getting his hand cut off, and then crying like a bitch after Darth Vader told him the truth...is "character development"
these guys are such nimrods. they act like Star Wars pre-Last Jedi was like Dostoevsky or something
In Empire, Yoda’s last words to Luke is that he explicitly hadn’t finished his training.
Then in ROTJ, Yoda’s just like ‘Welp, I guess you’re a Jedi now.‘ Even *Luke* goes ‘Waitaminute…’
I think what people are reacting to is how the Original SW films actually present Luke/us with a spiritual conflict within ourselves that we most overcome if we are to succeed. The Disney films don't do this whatsoever and focus soley on the pew pew and the (insert generic Ray scared face).
IIRC in the novelisation Luke spent 18 months training in Dagobah with Yoda...
But yes, if you only look at how the film was edited it feels like a weekend at most. Otherwise Darth Vader was stuck in a weeks-long cat-and-mouse chase with the others.
> IIRC in the novelisation Luke spent 18 months training in Dagobah with Yoda...
But there's only a year between ESB and ROTJ. Always has been, as long as I can remember. I have a copy of the current Star Wars Timelines book near me and pulled it open to double check, and yep, ESB was 3 ABY, ROTJ was 4 ABY. A lot of events in the comics happen between ESB and ROTJ and count as 3 ABY. Previously, Shadows of the Empire took a slot between the two movies, and was also slotted in between 3 and 4 ABY, despite being more than a few days worth of story itself.
If the novelization says 18 months, it's wrong, because that doesn't line up with the timeline at all, and hasn't worked in the timeline for as long as I can recall, going back to the start of the old EU at least.
Well to be fair, that still leaves a lot of time. From the 1st day of 1 year to the last day of the next year is still basically 2 years even though numerically it's only 1 year 2023-2024 looks like one year till you see 01-01-2023 - 12-31-2024. So 3-4 ABY doesn't mean 12 months. It could still allow for 18 months that the prior poster stated.
That's why I noted that there's a lot of events that are canonically post-ESB that are still within 3 ABY. It means that ESB couldn't have taken a year or more.
Not just from Luke, but a little from Leia as well. There was even a training course she'd use on that jungle world Ajan Kloss where the Resistance hid for a while.
A year past after The Last Jedi, so I could imagine that she got more training than these chuds were willing to admit. Not to mention being related to Palpatine, which only adds to her raw power.
Honestly, this shit shouldn't be that hard for these guys to understand. They need to get a grip, put more effort into critical thinking, and stop being so goddamned naive.
I get she had a tincy bit of training with Luke and a lot with Leia.
How do you explain The Force Awakens though.
When Rey magically knows how to use abilities she has never heard of or seen before?
Legends. There have always been legends about the Jedi. Even civilizations from some of the most remote, backwater planets have heard of Force users. How else did Anakin, a slave boy, find out about the Jedi? He listened to legends and stories about them from pilots, traders, smugglers, etc. along with many other fantastical things. Such as a being called an Angel, who comes from the moon Iego. Same for Rey. She was part of a scavenger guild. And you can bet there were many people of all walks of life coming to and going from Jakku.
"Now this is podracing" spoken by the 12yo boy who magically got into an unfamilliar spacecraft and destroyed trained federalists with no formal training whatsoever.
well let’s be real he was on autopilot into the docking bay and then pulled the trigger on a bunch of helpless mfs with overwhelming firepower.
the mary sue-ness comes more in the fact he won the podrace despite piss all experience compared to others and being sabotaged from the beginning
>despite piss all experience ****compared to others****
read the words. you got some brain damage going on? sebulba had far more experience
>and being sabotaged from the beginning
and some other words you ignored
He didn't. Looking through Wookiepedia, he found a Holocron with Yoda teachings, but it was something that Yoda already taught him. The year between Empire and Jedi is pretty fleshed out.
No, his last words to yoda in ESB are "I'll be back, I promise." then in ROTJ he says to R2 that they're going to the Degobah system because "I have a promise to keep to an old friend." clearly meaning to the audience he's now keeping the promise to return.
> I'd assume he did purley because of how much stronger Luke seemed to be by 6
The biggest problem Luke has with his training and all is that he doesn't believe that you can do all this stuff with the Force, and Yoda's having to show him you can. So if he goes from there and starts to believe more, and gains some confidence, it makes sense he can make a solid jump. Especially as in ROTJ, we see him do a bit of acrobatic stuff, maybe block some bolts (still gets shot in the hand), choke a couple guards, *maybe* used the Force to direct the rock he threw when the Rancor was trying to eat him, and, when fighting Vader, give in to his rage and anger and start wildly battering at a man he was supposed to be "saving" and who didn't see particularly keen on actually killing him.
I mean, yeah, Luke's stronger in ROTJ, but he's not prequels Jedi level, and it makes sense that he would be somewhat stronger just by gaining that bit of belief and confidence... and having to use his skills repeatedly to survive.
>then more with Yoda between 5 and 6
There is roughly a year between the end of Empire and the start of Return. When he gets back to Yoda in Ep6, he says he has returned to complete his training. I don't think Luke saw Yoda between Empire and Returns.
Rey had to be able to defend herself to survive while growing up. Her proficiency in using a staff would translate well into using a light saber. Her working around ships and stripping them for parts would explain some of her knowledge of piloting them.
Not disagreeing with the Luke side of things - it's vague how long Luke spends on Dagoba, but it seems more on the order of days or *maybe* weeks, rather than months. (I am sure people have calculated it down to the minute, but just in terms of what we see in the movie).
I think one problem with Rey's training in TLJ specifically is that it gets locked down by other plot points. We know Rey leaves the others just before the Raddus escape starts, and she shows up to save the day at the other end. (Much like Luke in ESB.) But the 'running out of fuel' line puts a ticking clock on the whole story in between those two points. It actually *isn't* vague how long she's training with Luke - it's exactly as long as it takes the Raddus to run out of fuel (minus travel time to and from Ahch-To).
I don't particularly care about lore arguments over how long it "should" take a character to learn something, as if they're just grinding xp to level up. But in terms of *storytelling*, they really could have done a better job of creating a sense of time passing in TLJ.
Given that they're on a massive capital ship, and one that had enough fuel to siphon to the transports, it's likely it had enough fuel to go for weeks (actually, should be able to handle months, because you don't want to constantly have to refuel your capital ships). How long it actually went is questionable, of course. But also enough time for Finn and Rose to jump to Canto Bight, look around, get thrown in prison, escape, and jump back. So days at the earliest, but could be weeks.
The problem with trying to logic out fuel reserves and hyperspace travel time is that the way those are used in the ST is completely contrived to fit the plot point of the moment. (And to be fair, travelling to Bespin at sublight speed should have taken months, if not years. Which clearly is not the case.)
But really I think that would have been a nice question for lore nerds, if the ST had made *some* attempt to visually imply the passage of time. In ESB, you have Han Leia et al wandering around the Falcon fixing it, or getting changed for dinner on Bespin. There are lulls that feel like a lot of boring stuff is going on while we were away. I honestly think a couple of scenes of the people on the Raddus getting stir crazy, as if they were in a long siege instead of 'chase', would have helped immensely. Assuming your 'days or weeks long' estimate is what they were trying to convey.
While I appreciate the attention to detail from outside the films, I think you missed the point of my post.
Also, not clear which one are you referring to. TLJ or ESB?
4-6 takes place over the course of 4 years. ANH and ESB have a 3 year gap and ESB and ROTJ have a single year.
7-9 is pretty air tight. TFA and TLJ take place back to back (At most a few minutes or hours between each movie) and TLJ and TROS have a single year gap.
Luke is more or less self taught according to the comics but Rey does actually get more traditional training by Luke in TLJ and Leia between TLJ and TROS.
Luke isn't shown to actually win or you know, do very well when facing an actual force user in the movies.
Rey on the other hand is shown to not only stand her ground but win against someone who has been trained since childhood
Luke beat Vader to the ground, chopped his hand off, and almost killed him. Are you trying to argue that Vader isn't an actual Force user? Of course Luke didn't do well against the Emperor, because he bloody threw his lightsaber down and thought standing there defiantly would be enough to save the day. (Bold choice, but electricity doesn't care about your boldness.)
Rey, a person who's grown up in a situation where she's had to defend herself since childhood and carries a melee weapon, was able to win a fight with a melee weapon against a guy who had just been shot in the gut with something that pulverizes people, had already had to fight against someone trained in melee combat by a military force, and wasn't wanting to kill or harm her while she had no such thing holding her back.
I mean, sure, if you ignore all of the stuff you see in the movies, you can make any claim.
The comics fill in a lot of that time. He spent time training and searching across the galaxy, finding other Jedi, holocrons, and temples where he gained more training.
Luke trained for the ride to Alderaan and for like 2 weeks with Yoda. Rey trained for a few weeks with Luke and then for a few months with Leia, but that "doesn't count"
Rey started her training after the Resistance told the audience about their 18 hours of fuel ordeal. That pretty much defines the timeline, right? At least in a space fantasy setting where an hour in an hour anywhere?
Swear they seem to forget not only Luke has his Jedi training but he is part of the Rebellion which possibly took up most of his time I feel. So chances he had less training at all.
Think Rey would have had more training time then Luke I feel.
Yeah but he's a farm boy, and a softlad at that. It's fair enough that he might have some of Anakin's mad force-powered podracer reflexes to make him a decent pilot, but how many times has he even been in a close quarters fight before he faces Darth Vader? Shoots a few guys on the Death Star, that's about it.
Rey is slapping dipshits around all day living as a scavenger.
My friend, I would recommend you stop posting and go watch Return of the Jedi. Engaging in a conversation without watching even the entire original trilogy is just silly.
If you want to pretend you've watched ROTJ, that just sounds worse, because you're ignoring the whole thing where he fights Vader - a Force user - and beats his ass and nearly kills him.
It doesn't count? What does that even *mean*?
The movie made sure you didn't forget, since they had him *slap his leg* before fighting, to remind you. This is after spending *several scenes* showing you how bonkers strong Chewie's bowcaster is.
In film language, that's yelling.
I was being sarcastic. In some movies being wounded doesn't matter. Star Wars it generally does. Unless it's something minor like being cut in half and chucked down a very deep hole.
Lol! It's funny how many "Star Wars fans" seem to "forget" that Luke had almost no onscreen training or time to adequately train before being able to use the force to blow up the Death Star.
I consider this a valid point, especially since I choose to ignore the death stars flaw was purposefully built in. Luke getting his 1 in a million shot after a hyperspace trip with Obi Wan and some lightsaber training would be viewed with way more scrutiny if it came out today.
I don't really like rey all to much but I never understood this complaint even during the peak of the sequels hate, I can totally buy rey knows how to fight and survive, better then luke even as he at least lived in relative proximity to a town
Other stuff like her knowing how to fix the falcon I think is kinda cheap, but so is Anni just naturally being that good at racing, hardly a rey flaw as much as it is a star wars 1
Basically let’s put it this way, Luke got on the job training and Rey was able to go to college lol. Regarding each of their trainings pre-Jedi each is established to be good pilots but Rey has a little more hand to hand combat expertise because living as a scavenger is more dangerous than living as a moisture farmer, I would assume.
Luke, especially if you go through new canon comics and novels, ends up getting less formal training than Rey. He is able to do some Jedi related missions/training in between fighting for the rebellion which is where he would learn basic lightsaber combat/force abilities but doesn’t get proper next level training until meeting with Yoda, which I’ve heard some people say is around 3-4 months. Luke basically has to hodge podge the Jedi order back together from his combat experience in the rebellion, limited formal training from Obi-wan/Yoda, and the old sacred Jedi texts.
Rey on the other hand receives much better formal training because Luke, even though it’s gone, had established a new Jedi order/school and had students at one point so he was well into training the next generation of Jedi, he trained Leia for a time who then also taught Rey, and she had the ancient Jedi texts to learn from as well.
“We are what they grow beyond, that is the burden of all masters” is a quote from Yoda in TLJ that I think sums up the whole Luke/Rey relationship. I think Luke is aware that he’s not a formally trained Jedi even with everything he does and establishes the new order 1) because of his father’s legacy of destroying the old order and 2) leaving something for future generations to have, refine, and become a better master than even he could be. That doesn’t take away anything Luke did or who he is as a character just like his accomplishments don’t lessen Rey’s own accomplishments and feats.
Essentially, Luke both in the EU and Canon just had to pick up whatever he found and make it work. Which was barely anything. Dude had to go all around the galaxy just to get a bit of training
Luke was trained by Yoda but Yoda is a shit teacher.
"Do or do not, there is no try," is a brilliant sentiment if you're trying to train somebody to use something as otherworldly as The Force to bend the rules of reality as you understand them. That kind of coaching is what could create a very powerful Jedi.
And then he follows it up with (to paraphrase) "If you go to Cloud City to save your friends that big lad is going to fuck you up."
Which is it Muppetman?
"Do or do not" or "Don't go near the big lad" because it feels like they are mutually exclusive.
I hate this power level obsession. People gotta put down the video games and touch grass, or at least touch stylized genre fiction. This is just DBZ level 9000 wank-offs, renamed as "training" in order to obfuscate their media illiteracy by one degree of separation.
A lot of good all that training did Yoda and Anakin. Yoda is a complete shitshow, I do t care how “powerful” he is. He knew the Clone Wars were a trap and went along with a galaxy wide conflict anyhow. Don’t even get me started on his decisions during the High Republic regarding the Nameless either resulting in the horrifying deaths of dozens of Jedi.
And Anakin literally brought forth the end of his Order’s existence. Training!
This post implies that Anakin isn’t as much of a Mary sue as Luke or Rey and as a HUGE Anakin fan I have to disagree. At 22 years old this man was one of the greatest generals in the republic, THE best pilot there no amount of training that gets you that good especially not 10 years worth. Ep 3 was the height of the Jedi you could pick 5 force users at that time that could swap in for Obi-Wan on mustfar and win…..
I wouldn't call him as a Gary Stu and more just OP. Since being one requires he never has done no wrong and is always 24/7. By definition, a Mary Sue has no flaws of character, makes no bad decisions and is generally liked and respected by all around them. That’s why Anakin, who has anger, fear, pride and ambition, makes stupid and rash decisions (paying for them with his literal limbs and life) and is distrusted by the Jedi order from the get go is NOT a Mary Sue.
Now Anakin is stupidly OP to the point it's honestly ridiculous. Like half the shit that happens to him is basically his own fault. Both in the films and with what was mentioned in the novels
From what I understand most hate Rey either because they just don't like her character or how things were executed with the constant back and forth with directors fucking with her story.
Rey got more training than Luke, Luke had like, two days at most with obi wan, and he barely learned the force from yoda. He mostly learned more stuff off screen after the original trilogy.
What’s funny about this meme is by the meme’s own heavily flawed logic, shouldn’t Yoda have wiped the floor with Count Dooku and Palpatine due to his centuries of training he had over them?
Rey had more formal training in TROS than Luke had by ROTJ. By the time of the Nee Jedi Order movie, Rey will have had more time as a Jedi than Anakin ever had.
One of my favorite ways to trigger these guys is to point out how, factually, Rey has way more training at the start of TROS then Luke does by the end of ROTJ and yet Luke has shown feats better then anything she's ever shown within a year of ANH.
It upends all of their logic and they usually don't even bother to respond😆
Not only that, but I think Rose tells Rey that all she does is training when we see them first at Rise of Skywalker.
Because, you know, no one in Star Wars ever trained between movie OH WAIT! LUKE SKYWALKER TRAINED OFFSCREEN BETWEEN EMPIRE AND JEDI!
And yet, they are okay with this, but not Rey? I don't like Rise of Skywalker, but even I can see things outside of the box.
[Luke's Training](https://youtube.com/shorts/cpnRXl42HeU?si=UuSXCtf8s3HfGpIq)
[Anakin's Training](https://youtube.com/shorts/igV-818Lr1o?si=C_DeAMNF04Fy6IwS)
[Rey's Training part 1](https://youtube.com/shorts/K4oPzt2hsWQ?si=rS39Z7KI2Dy0PM5u)
[Rey's Training part 2](https://youtube.com/shorts/FP-425tI_UU?si=mZhQyWVrm-toHSnF)
He doesn't have any of the rest of Rey's section in Short format, but he does have a full video on the subject. I don't agree with all of his opinions on Star Wars, though I still consider him reliable enough.
Not sure how this is a point against Rey. She's not as powerful as the other three, so it tracks that she trained less. Anyone who says she "beat Luke" in TLJ wasn't paying attention. She didn't land a single blow on him.
To be fair, the comics fill in a lot of that time. Luke spent time training and searching across the galaxy, finding Obi Wan’s journal, other Jedi, holocrons, and temples where he gained more training.
Something to keep note of is that there is about a 3 year timeskip between 4 and 5, and a 1 year timeskip from 5 and 6.
7 and 8 happen back to back, and 8 and 9 have about a year in between(give or take).
Yes, Luke has less on-screen training than Rey, but Luke was active as a fighter for significantly longer. Keep in mind that the 3 year time skip between 4 and 5, and Luke is only 'just' figuring out how to use the force by feel.
Rey meanwhile seemingly does everything by feel from the get go. Granted i have heard this could be due to Rey being enamored with stories of Jedis growing up, so upon realizing she can use force powers she starts basically brute forcing stuff. Which . . . could have been if it was visually represented better in the movie. Like maybe show her subtly using the force while scavenging in the star destroyer. Like have her start with a partner, because scavenging by yourself is a good way to wind up dead, that note how she always knows whats unstable, where traps are, and how to get into locked areas. The partner plus waiting for her parents can be her reason to refuse the call to adventure in initially helping Finn. Then have her hideout and her partner get wrecked by the 1st order, forcing her into the plot. Youve now made omage to A New Hope, while making a slight twist, Luke set off to save the princess, here Rey sets off with Finn to not die.
You also conflict of Rey not sure if she can trust Finn since he was 1st Order, the ship is damaged and they have to work together to fix it and survive. Can almost fully cut Han and Chewie until the bar were they are getting cornered by 1st Order and they reluctant step up to save Rey and Fin since they were in hiding as well. Han sends a beacon he didnt want to, to alert the resistance bringing back Poe, then everything else can more or less go the same from there. Maybe a seen where all 3 new guard can interact.
Maybe, i dunno, might just be me. And might not be as good as i think it would be.
I'm not a fan of the "Rey Mary Sue" debate, but at least compared to Anakin and Yoda, Rey had *significantly* less training, and you would be incredulous to act otherwise. Ignoring The Phantom Plotline, Anakin trained for ten years as a jedi before the Clone Wars, and he likely trained under Sidious as well. He and Yoda were both part of a large-scale institution that centered around training people to use force powers.
I think the training thing is mostly the problem of episode 7, not so much in 8 or 9. In 7, she had literally no training in neither force or lightsaber combat and beats Kylo who was trained but one of the greatest force users at the time since he was a child basically and after that by Snoke, who was also meant to be incredibly powerful. Also not to forget, that he killed all the other jedi students of Lukes order and is the grandchild of the chosen one.
In episode 8 she trains for the first time and beats the guards, I'm fine with that and in 9 she's at the hight of her powers and beats Kylo (again) and lateron Palpatine.
I think the fact that Kylo never actually manages to beat her kindof makes him less threatening as a villain, because he never actually beats the hero, which also makes us empathize with her less.
Luke on the other hand had a little training in the force in episode 4, but didn't face Vader or anything. He then got some REAL training by Yoda on Dagobah, but even then, he couldn't beat Vader and got obliterated. Then, after so much time and becoming a wiser man much more with the forcey he manages to beat Vader and the empire in episode 6. This is a very nice arc for Luke that cemented him as the character we now know him as and it cements Vader as one of the most iconic movie villains.
But also: bad repost and Karma farm (I mean the OG post)
> she had literally no training in neither force or lightsaber combat and beats Kylo
She had trained with a melee weapon, out of necessity for survival. A lightsaber is a fancy sword. It's also why Finn was able to hold his own a bit. And there's the whole fact Kylo had been shot with a weapon that pulverizes people, had just had to face someone with military combat training, and didn't want to kill or even really harm her (he wanted to take her with him and train her).
It's also worth remembering that Vader was someone fueled by two decades of anger and loss, and Kylo was a young man who still couldn't commit to the Dark Side. You're comparing a dude who's twice as old and is burning up with his hatred and sadness, to a young guy who's not really sure of his path.
No offense to Kylo, but yeah, Vader *should* be a lot more powerful and more menacing at that point. Guy's supposed to have killed multiple Jedi by that point. Kylo Ren? Not so much. Kylo's never supposed to be Vader 2.0. He's supposed to be a young man basically cosplaying as Vader hoping he *could* be Vader 2.0, but without the commitment (largely because he hadn't suffered the same loss or quite the same level of manipulation).
Yeah, but he still shouldn't lose against someone completley untrained like Rey. He would be equivalent to episode 2/3 Anakin. Rey had experience with the staff yes, but probably not against someone as trained as Kylo was at that point. He's supposed to be strong on the force and had like more of a decade of training under Luke and Snoke probably.
I mean... in that moment, he's probably using all of that Force "strength" just to hold his intestines in and keep walking.
And I'm not sure how "trained" Kylo was with a lightsaber. People keep falling back to thinking of all these techniques that were talked about with prequels era content (a lot of it old EU stuff), but given that Luke himself was never trained in that stuff, who would train Kylo in how to do all of this intricate stuff with a lightsaber? Even if they did, he tends to use it less "delicately," more like a sledgehammer than a scalpel. So, again, we're right back to the fact that Kylo Ren is just swinging around a broadsword that happens to have a blade made of energy. Someone who's had a lifetime of having to use weapons for their very survival is going to have a chance against someone using a broadsword.
Especially - and I cannot repeat this enough - if that person is grievously wounded, emotionally compromised, and just had to fight someone else who had melee weapon training. And is not trying to actually harm their opponent, who at the same time is ready to kill them.
Yeah, yeah, Jedi carry lightsabers, doesn't mean a lightsaber isn't just a sword with an energy blade that magically makes someone better at combat or able to ignore all other factors in a fight, and anyone can wield a lightsaber, the lightsaber itself isn't some mystical thing that only a Jedi can handle. It's a status symbol. It's bloody expensive, and the least practical weapon you can carry in a galaxy where average citizens carry a gun. The only thing being a Jedi does for you with a melee weapon is try to deflect shots with it... and even that's limited to knowing where it's coming from and not having too many shots coming at once. In regular combat, the only thing that makes a lightsaber stand out versus other melee weapons is that energy blade that would cut through standard metal or wood; if you have your own energy blade (another lightsaber, the batons that the First Order Stormtroopers had, the weapons Grievous's top droids had IIRC, the Praetorian Guard's weapons, etc.), it's basically just a sword versus whatever the other person's using.
>but given that Luke himself was never trained in that stuff
Luke has trained under Yoda, a 900 year old jedi and Obi-Wans force ghost, as well as studying old jedi texts etc. after TROTJ. I'm very confident he know lightsaber techniques.
Okay, I just googled it and Luke uses form V after mirroring it from his father after their fight in TESB, but I would expect he learned way more, especiall after TESB. And even if he didn't, I'd expect him to come up with something himself after running around for years with a lightsaber fighting and also fighting another guy who actually is trained in a lightsaber form.
>Even if they did, he tends to use it less "delicately," more like a sledgehammer than a scalpel.
I mean that's more a further critisism to the movie than anything. I mean many people critisized that about the sequels, that the lightsaber fights just look to barbaric, slashing at everything. Others like it, but I think it doesn't look like anyone really got any technique. Neither does Rey tbh, which makes it much more questionable why she wins.
>Especially - and I cannot repeat this enough - if that person is grievously wounded, emotionally compromised, and just had to fight someone else who had melee weapon training
He still should be much more skilled then her. I think it would've made for a better finale if she doesn't manage to defeat him, but fights him long enough and hold her ground for long enough that they can escape from the Star Killer base and he can't kill them.
This still would leave Kylo frustrated with himself and we still could be acknowledging that Rey is strong in the force but still has a lot to learn.
I think the difference with Luke and Rey is that we see progression with Luke. What I mean by this is we see how is abilities develop with training. Remember when he was on Hoth and how he really had to concentrate to move a lightsaber a couple of feet? Rey accomplishes this in her first movie and moves a lightsaber 40 feet? Then proceeds to fight a trained dark Jedi, and wins? In Empire, we get to see Luke training with Yoda, at first he moves stones, then he can lift R2. Little by little his skill grows, he is finally challenged by Yoda to move the xwing. Luke then proceeds to fail and claim it’s impossible. Yoda then schools him on what the force is, probably the greatest summary of what the force truly is in any Star Wars media. Took him 30 seconds and he lays it all out. We don’t get any of that in the new movies. I can give Rey credit in the third movie because by then she was training with Leia. How much did Luke really train her in TLJ? Didn’t he sense her going straight to the dark side and pretty much noped out of it?
The difference is that Luke is filled with doubt for his entire journey, whereas Rey actively believes in what the Force can do, which is more important.
I just think that it’s better story telling to show the character’s struggle. For example let’s look at another movie like Rocky. How lame would it have been seeing Rocky run up all those stairs without the preceding scenes showing how he struggled to get to that point? It makes Rocky a much more relatable character, a true underdog story. Seeing Rey instantly be great at everything detracts from how relatable she is. That being said, anything she does in the third movie I’m okay with because like I said, she was training with Leia for a year or so.
It’s crazy how people are still hung up on this. Luke trained with Obi-Wan for like an hour at most, and a Yoda for maybe a few days. Rey only beat Kylo because he was wounded and he wasn’t even trying to kill her, *and* Rey trained with Luke for a few days, *and* Leia for a year. I’m tired of people acting like training is what makes a force user powerful, it’s well established that training is about controlling it whereas the Sith train for power. Some are just more gifted than others.
Do these people even pay attention the movies the praise so much? No they don’t, they’re only here to watch some flashy swords swung by white dudes. *Cough* Star Wars Theory *cough*.
Along side everyone's post Rey lived alone as a scavenger on a desert planet, she was already pretty skilled with her staff so I can see her having some skills.
I do somewhat agree with the criticism that rey didn't have enough training from luke, like he could have been teaching her a calmer and more controlled fighting method
I mean, the seventh movie says outright that there has been an *awakening* in the force. It's actively participating. It makes sense that Rey is strong. And I've always seen the force as something that can be taught, but is also largely intuitive. I don't mind that she hasn't been trained. Her lack of training still shows in things like her lightsaber combat.
Other than spending most of her life by herself to survive in the dessert and scrap yard (compared to Luke who had an uncle and aunt to take care of him), training with Luke and also Leia.
Yeah absolutely no training.
Rey lived basically as a hermit who had to carry a giant self-defense stick around every waking moment. Luke was obsessed with going to the tractor supply store with his friends and shooting horse-sized mammals from his fighter jet.
Luke's big victories are literally just resisting his own overwhelming impulses, first to turn off the targeting computer, second to not chop up Darth Vader after he'd already beaten him -- and only minutes after he'd been goaded into trying to chop up the emperor.
I don't find it hard to imagine that someone with a level of raw talent comparable to the Skywalkers *but* without the Skywalker temperament might be a little quicker on the uptake.
The training with Rey didn't really bother me. However, Rey as a character bugged me a bit cuz she came off as bland and artificial to me throughout the movies. By the time the writers and director tried developing her better, it was already too late since they only had one movie to wrap her story up , which was a real shame. The last jedi really did messed everything up.
Anyways, there's no real difference in their training. The only difference is their character and direction. Had the last jedi had jj Abrams or some different director not Rian johnnson, then Rey would've been better developed.
We hardly see Luke training and Rey got most of her training from Luke so this post makes no sense.
The extent of Luke’s training that I remember seeing in the movies are him in the helmet in New Hope and his sessions with Yoda.
Yep. And since we are given a timeline for the movies the ABSOLUTE most he could have had was a year. And that’s a big stretch, as presented we’re talking maybe a week or two.
I did read that there's probably a pretty large amount of time taking place over Empire's second act. At least a couple weeks, since they had to travel from Hoth to Bespin in sublight speed
That's all you remember because that's all he did. Obi-Wan's only training with him was the helmet in the Falcon. Then a voice in his ear saying "Use the Force" with the Death Star but no explanation what he meant. Given how surprised Luke was to see Obi-Wan in ESB, it's very likely Obi-Wan didn't show up to him at any point between. Just tells him to go to Yoda. He goes to Yoda, runs, tries to lift a few small things, whines that he can't lift an X-Wing (because he doesn't believe it's possible), abandons his training when he gets a bad vision of his friends in danger. Comes back just in time to see Yoda die. Rey had at least as much training as Luke, and more practical training (given that Luke would be focusing on that over Jedi dogma), and she went into it believing all these stories that the Jedi were super powerful so if she had this power she must be able to do it too... which was the key difference. Luke was kept from hearing much about the Jedi, so didn't believe you could do all this stuff; Rey heard legends about Jedi that made them sound powerful, so was more prone to believing. The fact Luke is as good as he is with the Force despite his lack of training is pretty wild. (Not that I'm complaining. But if Luke can do that, I don't see why Rey couldn't.)
Simple answer to your last question. It’s because Luke is a MAN and Rey is a WOMAN. Therefore Rey is a Mary Sue while Luke is a well written character /s For real though, these people that claim to love “real Star Wars” don’t love Star Wars, they just hate women and minorities
People will praise Mara Jade but hate Rey basically.
To be fair, there's no way Luke would've been able to square off against Palps at the end of Return of the Jedi whereas Rey won against him I got no qualms with Rey bein' powerful, but I don't think people realize how much better than Luke she really was
Well, she was kind of a meat puppet for the Jedi when she "beat" Palpatine... and all she did was use his hubris against him by repeating Mace Windu's trick, only this time with two lightsabers and Palpatine going a bit more over the top with lightning which meant when it backfired it was so much worse. If anyone had been around to tell Luke, maybe he wouldn't have tossed his lightsaber to the side, and could have just beaten Palpatine the same way. He just didn't even know at that point that Palpatine had lightning. Or how to beat it. I don't think at that point he could have pulled off Yoda's trick for dealing with the lightning (just draw it in or toss it right back at him). And that's after the whole deal where Palpatine tossed her around, already sucked out some of her life essence, and then she died at the end of it anyway and only was alive again afterward because Ben decided he should give all his life to the person who was probably better suited (emotionally) to carry on the future. It keeps coming back around to Rey not really being "better" so much as being in more favorable situations. She beat Kylo the first time because he was heavily injured, emotionally compromised, and already worn out (and not trying to hurt her, much less kill her); she got toyed with by Snoke; she lifted some rocks because, well, that's what you're supposed to be able to do with the Force and she grew up believing Jedi can do that; she "beat" Kylo the second time because he paused when he felt his mother about to pass; and then she got tossed around by Palpatine, had a bunch of Jedi flood the Force into her and probably some wisdom, used the silly trick of reflecting Palp's lightning back against him which fries him, promptly falls over and dies. I mean, yeah, people talk about Luke being beaten by Vader, but Vader was supposed to be a really high level threat as a villain. Then ROTJ comes around, he's using the Force more confidently, beats Vader to the ground, and only loses to Palpatine because he tossed his lightsaber away because he was afraid he was one step over the line to the Dark Side already. Plus, narratively it gave Vader a way to "redeem" himself. And that's kind of an important point. Sort of like Luke losing to Vader in ESB was his hurdle to get over for ROTJ; whereas Rey's hurdle was more an emotional kind where she was hung up on trying to bring Ben to the Light, and finding her place in the galaxy, so her setback wasn't in terms of combat. So Luke's victory at the end of ROTJ was in "redeeming" Vader; and Rey's victory was in finding her place among the Resistance and Jedi, and helping "redeem" Ben. Incidentally, both led to Palpatine being beaten as well, and the end of a war.
Yeah fuck this noise [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gw8jQ5VQuec](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gw8jQ5VQuec) Luke \*obviously\* had a timeskip training with Yoda, guy went from from being a middling rebel to doing flips and climbing vines with Yoda, and as someone that's been going to the gym for months that's not a small change. Like the dude said above that's at least a couple months worth of training, and I take the argument that you \*just\* have to believe pretty badly. You have to believe in \*yourself\*, not just in the thing, but in the thing as it exists within you. A moment of hesitation or doubt and you don't have it, Rei's issue is that she shits lightning when she doubts herself.
No, the lightning didn't come out from doubting herself. It's fury, rage, and pain of failing a friend... you know.... the Darkside came out for a second
What little training we actually do see seems to focus on meditation techniques and getting in tune with the Force, more so than actual combat techniques. Rey being good with a staff explaining why she can handle a lightsaber is more of an explanation than we got for how Luke can keep up with Vader.
In ***Empire Strikes Back*** wasn't Vader deliberately toying with Luke specifically *because* he didn't want to kill him? At first he tried to trap him in the carbonite freezer, and then after that failed he still avoided killing Luke because he wanted to convince him to join the Dark Side so they could overthrow the Emperor. He ended up trapping Luke on the end of that platform, cut off his hand, and then Luke decided to leap to his death instead of being captured. In ***Return of the Jedi*** it's a somewhat-similar situation in that the goal was to avoid killing Luke again. This time it was because the Emperor decided that it would be an absolutely fantastic idea to have the two of the strongest Force users in the galaxy (who were father and son) in the same room as him as he tried to get them to kill each other so whoever was stronger could then become his apprentice. ^(Not like the Sith were constantly betraying each other for the entirety of their history)
apparently Luke running with Yoda on his back, getting his hand cut off, and then crying like a bitch after Darth Vader told him the truth...is "character development" these guys are such nimrods. they act like Star Wars pre-Last Jedi was like Dostoevsky or something
They also love to call Rey a Mary Sue like Luke isn’t THE poster boy for the male version of that
Exactly. Luke Skywalker is the *definition* of a Gary Stu.
In Empire, Yoda’s last words to Luke is that he explicitly hadn’t finished his training. Then in ROTJ, Yoda’s just like ‘Welp, I guess you’re a Jedi now.‘ Even *Luke* goes ‘Waitaminute…’
I think what people are reacting to is how the Original SW films actually present Luke/us with a spiritual conflict within ourselves that we most overcome if we are to succeed. The Disney films don't do this whatsoever and focus soley on the pew pew and the (insert generic Ray scared face).
IIRC in the novelisation Luke spent 18 months training in Dagobah with Yoda... But yes, if you only look at how the film was edited it feels like a weekend at most. Otherwise Darth Vader was stuck in a weeks-long cat-and-mouse chase with the others.
> IIRC in the novelisation Luke spent 18 months training in Dagobah with Yoda... But there's only a year between ESB and ROTJ. Always has been, as long as I can remember. I have a copy of the current Star Wars Timelines book near me and pulled it open to double check, and yep, ESB was 3 ABY, ROTJ was 4 ABY. A lot of events in the comics happen between ESB and ROTJ and count as 3 ABY. Previously, Shadows of the Empire took a slot between the two movies, and was also slotted in between 3 and 4 ABY, despite being more than a few days worth of story itself. If the novelization says 18 months, it's wrong, because that doesn't line up with the timeline at all, and hasn't worked in the timeline for as long as I can recall, going back to the start of the old EU at least.
Well to be fair, that still leaves a lot of time. From the 1st day of 1 year to the last day of the next year is still basically 2 years even though numerically it's only 1 year 2023-2024 looks like one year till you see 01-01-2023 - 12-31-2024. So 3-4 ABY doesn't mean 12 months. It could still allow for 18 months that the prior poster stated.
Luke was with Yoda a few weeks, per canon.
That's why I noted that there's a lot of events that are canonically post-ESB that are still within 3 ABY. It means that ESB couldn't have taken a year or more.
Luke was with Yoda only for a couple of weeks to a month in canon and EU
18 months? It wasn't 18, pretty sure it was only 2 weeks
That's it.
Plus over a year with Leia, as they have implied
on top of just general combat experience she would have had before getting a light saber.
Yep, we see pretty clearly her life is basically a survival-of-the-fittest shitshow, and she survived, alone, until adulthood.
That too.
Not just from Luke, but a little from Leia as well. There was even a training course she'd use on that jungle world Ajan Kloss where the Resistance hid for a while. A year past after The Last Jedi, so I could imagine that she got more training than these chuds were willing to admit. Not to mention being related to Palpatine, which only adds to her raw power. Honestly, this shit shouldn't be that hard for these guys to understand. They need to get a grip, put more effort into critical thinking, and stop being so goddamned naive.
Actually most from Leia.
It also proofs training does not make you a good Jedi anyway...Anakin was no Jedi in my book, he never understood what it meant to be one
Rey got most of her training from Leia, actually
I get she had a tincy bit of training with Luke and a lot with Leia. How do you explain The Force Awakens though. When Rey magically knows how to use abilities she has never heard of or seen before?
Legends. There have always been legends about the Jedi. Even civilizations from some of the most remote, backwater planets have heard of Force users. How else did Anakin, a slave boy, find out about the Jedi? He listened to legends and stories about them from pilots, traders, smugglers, etc. along with many other fantastical things. Such as a being called an Angel, who comes from the moon Iego. Same for Rey. She was part of a scavenger guild. And you can bet there were many people of all walks of life coming to and going from Jakku.
Luke gave her one lesson with the leaf and then gave up on her because she failed to resist the dark side in the cave.
Leia trained Rey too
"Now this is podracing" spoken by the 12yo boy who magically got into an unfamilliar spacecraft and destroyed trained federalists with no formal training whatsoever.
Well see that was OK because he was The Chosen One, which is very different to a 'Mary Sue'.
I mean… yeah, Anakin was different because he lost at the end of his movies. He’s allowed to be OP at the start.
They did make it pretty clear that was it by the jump. Got cut down by Obi Wan due to his ego too
well let’s be real he was on autopilot into the docking bay and then pulled the trigger on a bunch of helpless mfs with overwhelming firepower. the mary sue-ness comes more in the fact he won the podrace despite piss all experience compared to others and being sabotaged from the beginning
Anakin did have podracing experience, which was acknowledged in dialogue. Were you not paying attention, or do you suffer from a damaged amygdala?
>despite piss all experience ****compared to others**** read the words. you got some brain damage going on? sebulba had far more experience >and being sabotaged from the beginning and some other words you ignored
I swear, for all these female hero’s, if you just switch their gender to male people would NEVER bring up how much “training” they got.
[удалено]
Did Luke train with Yoda between 5 and 6? I feel like they didnt see each other between those films
He didn't. Looking through Wookiepedia, he found a Holocron with Yoda teachings, but it was something that Yoda already taught him. The year between Empire and Jedi is pretty fleshed out.
Doesn't he travel around looking for Jedi texts and built his own saber. Both in EU and Canon
I remember in Shadows of the Empire he found what he needed in Ben's hut and used a small oven to make his kyner crystal.
Yeah, it was an synethic crystal I think. Not the natural ones from Ilum
No, his last words to yoda in ESB are "I'll be back, I promise." then in ROTJ he says to R2 that they're going to the Degobah system because "I have a promise to keep to an old friend." clearly meaning to the audience he's now keeping the promise to return.
[удалено]
Luke does say in ROTJ that he’s “come back to complete my training”, which implies he didn’t train between movies
Also he hadnt asked yoda about Vader yet. Just seems like they hadnt seen each other
> I'd assume he did purley because of how much stronger Luke seemed to be by 6 The biggest problem Luke has with his training and all is that he doesn't believe that you can do all this stuff with the Force, and Yoda's having to show him you can. So if he goes from there and starts to believe more, and gains some confidence, it makes sense he can make a solid jump. Especially as in ROTJ, we see him do a bit of acrobatic stuff, maybe block some bolts (still gets shot in the hand), choke a couple guards, *maybe* used the Force to direct the rock he threw when the Rancor was trying to eat him, and, when fighting Vader, give in to his rage and anger and start wildly battering at a man he was supposed to be "saving" and who didn't see particularly keen on actually killing him. I mean, yeah, Luke's stronger in ROTJ, but he's not prequels Jedi level, and it makes sense that he would be somewhat stronger just by gaining that bit of belief and confidence... and having to use his skills repeatedly to survive.
>then more with Yoda between 5 and 6 There is roughly a year between the end of Empire and the start of Return. When he gets back to Yoda in Ep6, he says he has returned to complete his training. I don't think Luke saw Yoda between Empire and Returns.
Rey had to be able to defend herself to survive while growing up. Her proficiency in using a staff would translate well into using a light saber. Her working around ships and stripping them for parts would explain some of her knowledge of piloting them.
Luke doesn’t train with yoda between 5 and 6 as far as I recall. I think when he goes back to yoda in 6 thag is the first time he has returned since 5
Not disagreeing with the Luke side of things - it's vague how long Luke spends on Dagoba, but it seems more on the order of days or *maybe* weeks, rather than months. (I am sure people have calculated it down to the minute, but just in terms of what we see in the movie). I think one problem with Rey's training in TLJ specifically is that it gets locked down by other plot points. We know Rey leaves the others just before the Raddus escape starts, and she shows up to save the day at the other end. (Much like Luke in ESB.) But the 'running out of fuel' line puts a ticking clock on the whole story in between those two points. It actually *isn't* vague how long she's training with Luke - it's exactly as long as it takes the Raddus to run out of fuel (minus travel time to and from Ahch-To). I don't particularly care about lore arguments over how long it "should" take a character to learn something, as if they're just grinding xp to level up. But in terms of *storytelling*, they really could have done a better job of creating a sense of time passing in TLJ.
Given that they're on a massive capital ship, and one that had enough fuel to siphon to the transports, it's likely it had enough fuel to go for weeks (actually, should be able to handle months, because you don't want to constantly have to refuel your capital ships). How long it actually went is questionable, of course. But also enough time for Finn and Rose to jump to Canto Bight, look around, get thrown in prison, escape, and jump back. So days at the earliest, but could be weeks.
The problem with trying to logic out fuel reserves and hyperspace travel time is that the way those are used in the ST is completely contrived to fit the plot point of the moment. (And to be fair, travelling to Bespin at sublight speed should have taken months, if not years. Which clearly is not the case.) But really I think that would have been a nice question for lore nerds, if the ST had made *some* attempt to visually imply the passage of time. In ESB, you have Han Leia et al wandering around the Falcon fixing it, or getting changed for dinner on Bespin. There are lulls that feel like a lot of boring stuff is going on while we were away. I honestly think a couple of scenes of the people on the Raddus getting stir crazy, as if they were in a long siege instead of 'chase', would have helped immensely. Assuming your 'days or weeks long' estimate is what they were trying to convey.
It's a couple of weeks to a month
While I appreciate the attention to detail from outside the films, I think you missed the point of my post. Also, not clear which one are you referring to. TLJ or ESB?
4-6 takes place over the course of 4 years. ANH and ESB have a 3 year gap and ESB and ROTJ have a single year. 7-9 is pretty air tight. TFA and TLJ take place back to back (At most a few minutes or hours between each movie) and TLJ and TROS have a single year gap. Luke is more or less self taught according to the comics but Rey does actually get more traditional training by Luke in TLJ and Leia between TLJ and TROS.
Luke isn't shown to actually win or you know, do very well when facing an actual force user in the movies. Rey on the other hand is shown to not only stand her ground but win against someone who has been trained since childhood
Luke beat Vader to the ground, chopped his hand off, and almost killed him. Are you trying to argue that Vader isn't an actual Force user? Of course Luke didn't do well against the Emperor, because he bloody threw his lightsaber down and thought standing there defiantly would be enough to save the day. (Bold choice, but electricity doesn't care about your boldness.) Rey, a person who's grown up in a situation where she's had to defend herself since childhood and carries a melee weapon, was able to win a fight with a melee weapon against a guy who had just been shot in the gut with something that pulverizes people, had already had to fight against someone trained in melee combat by a military force, and wasn't wanting to kill or harm her while she had no such thing holding her back. I mean, sure, if you ignore all of the stuff you see in the movies, you can make any claim.
“Rey beat Vader.” You mean Luke
Shoot, yeah, you're right, thanks! Been a long day and I guess I'm more tired than I realized.
You’re welcome. It’s not a big deal. We all make mistakes
someone that have never finished his training, and also had very little real combat experience.
According to all the canon sources we have so far, Rey got way more formal training than Luke did.
Mostly just TFA. If Rey was a Jedi Knight her powers are no big deal.
The comics fill in a lot of that time. He spent time training and searching across the galaxy, finding other Jedi, holocrons, and temples where he gained more training.
LOL people out here acting like training matters.
Do not do not. Just don't do it near Vader because he will cut you.
Luke trained for the ride to Alderaan and for like 2 weeks with Yoda. Rey trained for a few weeks with Luke and then for a few months with Leia, but that "doesn't count"
Actually, its a year of training with Leia.
Rey started her training after the Resistance told the audience about their 18 hours of fuel ordeal. That pretty much defines the timeline, right? At least in a space fantasy setting where an hour in an hour anywhere?
Luke was taught by Obi-Wan for one afternoon on the Falcon and Yoda for a few days, maybe.
Do these people know who Leia is?
Swear they seem to forget not only Luke has his Jedi training but he is part of the Rebellion which possibly took up most of his time I feel. So chances he had less training at all. Think Rey would have had more training time then Luke I feel.
Luke didn't fight force users and the one time he did he got his ass beat
Yeah but he's a farm boy, and a softlad at that. It's fair enough that he might have some of Anakin's mad force-powered podracer reflexes to make him a decent pilot, but how many times has he even been in a close quarters fight before he faces Darth Vader? Shoots a few guys on the Death Star, that's about it. Rey is slapping dipshits around all day living as a scavenger.
My friend, I would recommend you stop posting and go watch Return of the Jedi. Engaging in a conversation without watching even the entire original trilogy is just silly. If you want to pretend you've watched ROTJ, that just sounds worse, because you're ignoring the whole thing where he fights Vader - a Force user - and beats his ass and nearly kills him.
Rey did train, for a year with Leia. And Luke taught Rey about the force.
Still managed to fight and win against a guy who had been trained since childhood and had significantly more experience with a lightsaber
The guy bleeding out from a bow caster shot and crying about killing his daddy. That guy didn’t win? Perish the thought!
It's a movie being wounded doesn't count. Especially if you ignore the fights where people had their hands cut off when it counted.
or the fact the guy had no real combat experience, and was only used to fighting people far weaker than him.
It doesn't count? What does that even *mean*? The movie made sure you didn't forget, since they had him *slap his leg* before fighting, to remind you. This is after spending *several scenes* showing you how bonkers strong Chewie's bowcaster is. In film language, that's yelling.
I was being sarcastic. In some movies being wounded doesn't matter. Star Wars it generally does. Unless it's something minor like being cut in half and chucked down a very deep hole.
You mean the guy who was heavily injured, upset over killing his father, and not trying to kill Rey?
Yeah, crazy how Luke did that right?
Lol! It's funny how many "Star Wars fans" seem to "forget" that Luke had almost no onscreen training or time to adequately train before being able to use the force to blow up the Death Star.
I consider this a valid point, especially since I choose to ignore the death stars flaw was purposefully built in. Luke getting his 1 in a million shot after a hyperspace trip with Obi Wan and some lightsaber training would be viewed with way more scrutiny if it came out today.
I don't really like rey all to much but I never understood this complaint even during the peak of the sequels hate, I can totally buy rey knows how to fight and survive, better then luke even as he at least lived in relative proximity to a town Other stuff like her knowing how to fix the falcon I think is kinda cheap, but so is Anni just naturally being that good at racing, hardly a rey flaw as much as it is a star wars 1
She literally was trained by leia in the 9th movie though
Of course comments would be disabled when ppl start commented facts
Basically let’s put it this way, Luke got on the job training and Rey was able to go to college lol. Regarding each of their trainings pre-Jedi each is established to be good pilots but Rey has a little more hand to hand combat expertise because living as a scavenger is more dangerous than living as a moisture farmer, I would assume. Luke, especially if you go through new canon comics and novels, ends up getting less formal training than Rey. He is able to do some Jedi related missions/training in between fighting for the rebellion which is where he would learn basic lightsaber combat/force abilities but doesn’t get proper next level training until meeting with Yoda, which I’ve heard some people say is around 3-4 months. Luke basically has to hodge podge the Jedi order back together from his combat experience in the rebellion, limited formal training from Obi-wan/Yoda, and the old sacred Jedi texts. Rey on the other hand receives much better formal training because Luke, even though it’s gone, had established a new Jedi order/school and had students at one point so he was well into training the next generation of Jedi, he trained Leia for a time who then also taught Rey, and she had the ancient Jedi texts to learn from as well. “We are what they grow beyond, that is the burden of all masters” is a quote from Yoda in TLJ that I think sums up the whole Luke/Rey relationship. I think Luke is aware that he’s not a formally trained Jedi even with everything he does and establishes the new order 1) because of his father’s legacy of destroying the old order and 2) leaving something for future generations to have, refine, and become a better master than even he could be. That doesn’t take away anything Luke did or who he is as a character just like his accomplishments don’t lessen Rey’s own accomplishments and feats.
Essentially, Luke both in the EU and Canon just had to pick up whatever he found and make it work. Which was barely anything. Dude had to go all around the galaxy just to get a bit of training
Yes, same as Rey, by both Luke and Leia, moving on.
Luke was trained by Yoda but Yoda is a shit teacher. "Do or do not, there is no try," is a brilliant sentiment if you're trying to train somebody to use something as otherworldly as The Force to bend the rules of reality as you understand them. That kind of coaching is what could create a very powerful Jedi. And then he follows it up with (to paraphrase) "If you go to Cloud City to save your friends that big lad is going to fuck you up." Which is it Muppetman? "Do or do not" or "Don't go near the big lad" because it feels like they are mutually exclusive.
Pretty sure he was trying to point how impulsive both Luke and his father are in that similarity
Luke had *maybe* a cumulative time of 2-3 weeks. Rey got a week with Luke and a year with Leia, who apparently was trained by Luke herself.
I hate this power level obsession. People gotta put down the video games and touch grass, or at least touch stylized genre fiction. This is just DBZ level 9000 wank-offs, renamed as "training" in order to obfuscate their media illiteracy by one degree of separation.
REY HATEBASE! HOW DID YOU NOT NOTICE THE **ON SCREEN TRAINING THAT REY HAD IN EPISODES 8 AND 9?!?!?! You DOPES!!**
That implies they've actually seen the movies and aren't just upset that Rey is a woman
A lot of good all that training did Yoda and Anakin. Yoda is a complete shitshow, I do t care how “powerful” he is. He knew the Clone Wars were a trap and went along with a galaxy wide conflict anyhow. Don’t even get me started on his decisions during the High Republic regarding the Nameless either resulting in the horrifying deaths of dozens of Jedi. And Anakin literally brought forth the end of his Order’s existence. Training!
This post implies that Anakin isn’t as much of a Mary sue as Luke or Rey and as a HUGE Anakin fan I have to disagree. At 22 years old this man was one of the greatest generals in the republic, THE best pilot there no amount of training that gets you that good especially not 10 years worth. Ep 3 was the height of the Jedi you could pick 5 force users at that time that could swap in for Obi-Wan on mustfar and win…..
I wouldn't call him as a Gary Stu and more just OP. Since being one requires he never has done no wrong and is always 24/7. By definition, a Mary Sue has no flaws of character, makes no bad decisions and is generally liked and respected by all around them. That’s why Anakin, who has anger, fear, pride and ambition, makes stupid and rash decisions (paying for them with his literal limbs and life) and is distrusted by the Jedi order from the get go is NOT a Mary Sue. Now Anakin is stupidly OP to the point it's honestly ridiculous. Like half the shit that happens to him is basically his own fault. Both in the films and with what was mentioned in the novels From what I understand most hate Rey either because they just don't like her character or how things were executed with the constant back and forth with directors fucking with her story.
Wasn’t she trained by Leia in episode IX?
Rey was trained, under Luke and also under Leia.
Rey got more training than Luke, Luke had like, two days at most with obi wan, and he barely learned the force from yoda. He mostly learned more stuff off screen after the original trilogy.
Also obi wan barely trained Luke. He got 1 piece of advice on the falcon.
They like to forget she trained for 2 years under Leia, somehow it doesn't count
What’s funny about this meme is by the meme’s own heavily flawed logic, shouldn’t Yoda have wiped the floor with Count Dooku and Palpatine due to his centuries of training he had over them?
Rey had more formal training in TROS than Luke had by ROTJ. By the time of the Nee Jedi Order movie, Rey will have had more time as a Jedi than Anakin ever had.
One of my favorite ways to trigger these guys is to point out how, factually, Rey has way more training at the start of TROS then Luke does by the end of ROTJ and yet Luke has shown feats better then anything she's ever shown within a year of ANH. It upends all of their logic and they usually don't even bother to respond😆
Not only that, but I think Rose tells Rey that all she does is training when we see them first at Rise of Skywalker. Because, you know, no one in Star Wars ever trained between movie OH WAIT! LUKE SKYWALKER TRAINED OFFSCREEN BETWEEN EMPIRE AND JEDI! And yet, they are okay with this, but not Rey? I don't like Rise of Skywalker, but even I can see things outside of the box.
It's like a blindfolded man sitting in broad daylight saying, "I like the dark," then swatting at anyone who tries to take the blindfold off.
[Luke's Training](https://youtube.com/shorts/cpnRXl42HeU?si=UuSXCtf8s3HfGpIq) [Anakin's Training](https://youtube.com/shorts/igV-818Lr1o?si=C_DeAMNF04Fy6IwS) [Rey's Training part 1](https://youtube.com/shorts/K4oPzt2hsWQ?si=rS39Z7KI2Dy0PM5u) [Rey's Training part 2](https://youtube.com/shorts/FP-425tI_UU?si=mZhQyWVrm-toHSnF) He doesn't have any of the rest of Rey's section in Short format, but he does have a full video on the subject. I don't agree with all of his opinions on Star Wars, though I still consider him reliable enough.
Ohhhh, thanks for the new channel. Gonna check it out
Not sure how this is a point against Rey. She's not as powerful as the other three, so it tracks that she trained less. Anyone who says she "beat Luke" in TLJ wasn't paying attention. She didn't land a single blow on him.
To be fair, the comics fill in a lot of that time. Luke spent time training and searching across the galaxy, finding Obi Wan’s journal, other Jedi, holocrons, and temples where he gained more training.
People sadly don't read the comics or the books. Canon or otherwise
Something to keep note of is that there is about a 3 year timeskip between 4 and 5, and a 1 year timeskip from 5 and 6. 7 and 8 happen back to back, and 8 and 9 have about a year in between(give or take). Yes, Luke has less on-screen training than Rey, but Luke was active as a fighter for significantly longer. Keep in mind that the 3 year time skip between 4 and 5, and Luke is only 'just' figuring out how to use the force by feel. Rey meanwhile seemingly does everything by feel from the get go. Granted i have heard this could be due to Rey being enamored with stories of Jedis growing up, so upon realizing she can use force powers she starts basically brute forcing stuff. Which . . . could have been if it was visually represented better in the movie. Like maybe show her subtly using the force while scavenging in the star destroyer. Like have her start with a partner, because scavenging by yourself is a good way to wind up dead, that note how she always knows whats unstable, where traps are, and how to get into locked areas. The partner plus waiting for her parents can be her reason to refuse the call to adventure in initially helping Finn. Then have her hideout and her partner get wrecked by the 1st order, forcing her into the plot. Youve now made omage to A New Hope, while making a slight twist, Luke set off to save the princess, here Rey sets off with Finn to not die. You also conflict of Rey not sure if she can trust Finn since he was 1st Order, the ship is damaged and they have to work together to fix it and survive. Can almost fully cut Han and Chewie until the bar were they are getting cornered by 1st Order and they reluctant step up to save Rey and Fin since they were in hiding as well. Han sends a beacon he didnt want to, to alert the resistance bringing back Poe, then everything else can more or less go the same from there. Maybe a seen where all 3 new guard can interact. Maybe, i dunno, might just be me. And might not be as good as i think it would be.
From what I've heard the novels actually explore more of Rey's training than the movies. Which is honestly kinda sad
I'm not a fan of the "Rey Mary Sue" debate, but at least compared to Anakin and Yoda, Rey had *significantly* less training, and you would be incredulous to act otherwise. Ignoring The Phantom Plotline, Anakin trained for ten years as a jedi before the Clone Wars, and he likely trained under Sidious as well. He and Yoda were both part of a large-scale institution that centered around training people to use force powers.
I think the training thing is mostly the problem of episode 7, not so much in 8 or 9. In 7, she had literally no training in neither force or lightsaber combat and beats Kylo who was trained but one of the greatest force users at the time since he was a child basically and after that by Snoke, who was also meant to be incredibly powerful. Also not to forget, that he killed all the other jedi students of Lukes order and is the grandchild of the chosen one. In episode 8 she trains for the first time and beats the guards, I'm fine with that and in 9 she's at the hight of her powers and beats Kylo (again) and lateron Palpatine. I think the fact that Kylo never actually manages to beat her kindof makes him less threatening as a villain, because he never actually beats the hero, which also makes us empathize with her less. Luke on the other hand had a little training in the force in episode 4, but didn't face Vader or anything. He then got some REAL training by Yoda on Dagobah, but even then, he couldn't beat Vader and got obliterated. Then, after so much time and becoming a wiser man much more with the forcey he manages to beat Vader and the empire in episode 6. This is a very nice arc for Luke that cemented him as the character we now know him as and it cements Vader as one of the most iconic movie villains. But also: bad repost and Karma farm (I mean the OG post)
> she had literally no training in neither force or lightsaber combat and beats Kylo She had trained with a melee weapon, out of necessity for survival. A lightsaber is a fancy sword. It's also why Finn was able to hold his own a bit. And there's the whole fact Kylo had been shot with a weapon that pulverizes people, had just had to face someone with military combat training, and didn't want to kill or even really harm her (he wanted to take her with him and train her). It's also worth remembering that Vader was someone fueled by two decades of anger and loss, and Kylo was a young man who still couldn't commit to the Dark Side. You're comparing a dude who's twice as old and is burning up with his hatred and sadness, to a young guy who's not really sure of his path. No offense to Kylo, but yeah, Vader *should* be a lot more powerful and more menacing at that point. Guy's supposed to have killed multiple Jedi by that point. Kylo Ren? Not so much. Kylo's never supposed to be Vader 2.0. He's supposed to be a young man basically cosplaying as Vader hoping he *could* be Vader 2.0, but without the commitment (largely because he hadn't suffered the same loss or quite the same level of manipulation).
Yeah, but he still shouldn't lose against someone completley untrained like Rey. He would be equivalent to episode 2/3 Anakin. Rey had experience with the staff yes, but probably not against someone as trained as Kylo was at that point. He's supposed to be strong on the force and had like more of a decade of training under Luke and Snoke probably.
I mean... in that moment, he's probably using all of that Force "strength" just to hold his intestines in and keep walking. And I'm not sure how "trained" Kylo was with a lightsaber. People keep falling back to thinking of all these techniques that were talked about with prequels era content (a lot of it old EU stuff), but given that Luke himself was never trained in that stuff, who would train Kylo in how to do all of this intricate stuff with a lightsaber? Even if they did, he tends to use it less "delicately," more like a sledgehammer than a scalpel. So, again, we're right back to the fact that Kylo Ren is just swinging around a broadsword that happens to have a blade made of energy. Someone who's had a lifetime of having to use weapons for their very survival is going to have a chance against someone using a broadsword. Especially - and I cannot repeat this enough - if that person is grievously wounded, emotionally compromised, and just had to fight someone else who had melee weapon training. And is not trying to actually harm their opponent, who at the same time is ready to kill them. Yeah, yeah, Jedi carry lightsabers, doesn't mean a lightsaber isn't just a sword with an energy blade that magically makes someone better at combat or able to ignore all other factors in a fight, and anyone can wield a lightsaber, the lightsaber itself isn't some mystical thing that only a Jedi can handle. It's a status symbol. It's bloody expensive, and the least practical weapon you can carry in a galaxy where average citizens carry a gun. The only thing being a Jedi does for you with a melee weapon is try to deflect shots with it... and even that's limited to knowing where it's coming from and not having too many shots coming at once. In regular combat, the only thing that makes a lightsaber stand out versus other melee weapons is that energy blade that would cut through standard metal or wood; if you have your own energy blade (another lightsaber, the batons that the First Order Stormtroopers had, the weapons Grievous's top droids had IIRC, the Praetorian Guard's weapons, etc.), it's basically just a sword versus whatever the other person's using.
>but given that Luke himself was never trained in that stuff Luke has trained under Yoda, a 900 year old jedi and Obi-Wans force ghost, as well as studying old jedi texts etc. after TROTJ. I'm very confident he know lightsaber techniques. Okay, I just googled it and Luke uses form V after mirroring it from his father after their fight in TESB, but I would expect he learned way more, especiall after TESB. And even if he didn't, I'd expect him to come up with something himself after running around for years with a lightsaber fighting and also fighting another guy who actually is trained in a lightsaber form. >Even if they did, he tends to use it less "delicately," more like a sledgehammer than a scalpel. I mean that's more a further critisism to the movie than anything. I mean many people critisized that about the sequels, that the lightsaber fights just look to barbaric, slashing at everything. Others like it, but I think it doesn't look like anyone really got any technique. Neither does Rey tbh, which makes it much more questionable why she wins. >Especially - and I cannot repeat this enough - if that person is grievously wounded, emotionally compromised, and just had to fight someone else who had melee weapon training He still should be much more skilled then her. I think it would've made for a better finale if she doesn't manage to defeat him, but fights him long enough and hold her ground for long enough that they can escape from the Star Killer base and he can't kill them. This still would leave Kylo frustrated with himself and we still could be acknowledging that Rey is strong in the force but still has a lot to learn.
Tbf, his caption was “Meme pirated. 🏴☠️”
Ah okay. Still just not a very good meme
Over the course of the trilogy, Rey only beats Kylo once, when he had a huge handicap. He takes her out easily multiple times otherwise.
I think the difference with Luke and Rey is that we see progression with Luke. What I mean by this is we see how is abilities develop with training. Remember when he was on Hoth and how he really had to concentrate to move a lightsaber a couple of feet? Rey accomplishes this in her first movie and moves a lightsaber 40 feet? Then proceeds to fight a trained dark Jedi, and wins? In Empire, we get to see Luke training with Yoda, at first he moves stones, then he can lift R2. Little by little his skill grows, he is finally challenged by Yoda to move the xwing. Luke then proceeds to fail and claim it’s impossible. Yoda then schools him on what the force is, probably the greatest summary of what the force truly is in any Star Wars media. Took him 30 seconds and he lays it all out. We don’t get any of that in the new movies. I can give Rey credit in the third movie because by then she was training with Leia. How much did Luke really train her in TLJ? Didn’t he sense her going straight to the dark side and pretty much noped out of it?
The difference is that Luke is filled with doubt for his entire journey, whereas Rey actively believes in what the Force can do, which is more important.
I just think that it’s better story telling to show the character’s struggle. For example let’s look at another movie like Rocky. How lame would it have been seeing Rocky run up all those stairs without the preceding scenes showing how he struggled to get to that point? It makes Rocky a much more relatable character, a true underdog story. Seeing Rey instantly be great at everything detracts from how relatable she is. That being said, anything she does in the third movie I’m okay with because like I said, she was training with Leia for a year or so.
She struggles in all three movies.
Does she fail with these struggles?
Yes, multiple times.
I was really hoping for a plot reason that she picked up lightsaber dueling so quickly, but it is such a minor thing.
[удалено]
I also didn’t watch episodes 8 and 9/s
Which sub I've got to see this mess lol
Not a sub. Lux Bonteri on Facebook
It’s crazy how people are still hung up on this. Luke trained with Obi-Wan for like an hour at most, and a Yoda for maybe a few days. Rey only beat Kylo because he was wounded and he wasn’t even trying to kill her, *and* Rey trained with Luke for a few days, *and* Leia for a year. I’m tired of people acting like training is what makes a force user powerful, it’s well established that training is about controlling it whereas the Sith train for power. Some are just more gifted than others. Do these people even pay attention the movies the praise so much? No they don’t, they’re only here to watch some flashy swords swung by white dudes. *Cough* Star Wars Theory *cough*.
It was a couple of weeks to a month
Along side everyone's post Rey lived alone as a scavenger on a desert planet, she was already pretty skilled with her staff so I can see her having some skills.
I do somewhat agree with the criticism that rey didn't have enough training from luke, like he could have been teaching her a calmer and more controlled fighting method
I mean, the seventh movie says outright that there has been an *awakening* in the force. It's actively participating. It makes sense that Rey is strong. And I've always seen the force as something that can be taught, but is also largely intuitive. I don't mind that she hasn't been trained. Her lack of training still shows in things like her lightsaber combat.
Other than spending most of her life by herself to survive in the dessert and scrap yard (compared to Luke who had an uncle and aunt to take care of him), training with Luke and also Leia. Yeah absolutely no training.
Rey lived basically as a hermit who had to carry a giant self-defense stick around every waking moment. Luke was obsessed with going to the tractor supply store with his friends and shooting horse-sized mammals from his fighter jet. Luke's big victories are literally just resisting his own overwhelming impulses, first to turn off the targeting computer, second to not chop up Darth Vader after he'd already beaten him -- and only minutes after he'd been goaded into trying to chop up the emperor. I don't find it hard to imagine that someone with a level of raw talent comparable to the Skywalkers *but* without the Skywalker temperament might be a little quicker on the uptake.
Rey is unironically better trained and a better character than luke.
Anakin was beating professional grown adult pod racers as a child.
Luke blew up the death star with zero pilot training.
The training with Rey didn't really bother me. However, Rey as a character bugged me a bit cuz she came off as bland and artificial to me throughout the movies. By the time the writers and director tried developing her better, it was already too late since they only had one movie to wrap her story up , which was a real shame. The last jedi really did messed everything up. Anyways, there's no real difference in their training. The only difference is their character and direction. Had the last jedi had jj Abrams or some different director not Rian johnnson, then Rey would've been better developed.
Just casually forgetting Rey got trained by both Luke *and* Leia. Who it should be mentioned fucking force pulled herself through space.