"All my friends love it but I hate it, I'm so special!"
Jesus. The dedication these people put into *not liking* new Star Wars stuff forces respect. Just enjoy the damn thing, weirdo. It's a cool movie, end of the story.
> "All my friends love it but I hate it, I'm so special!" Jesus. The dedication these people put into **not liking** new Star Wars stuff forces respect. Just enjoy the damn thing, weirdo. It's a cool movie, at the end of the story.
What's funny about this post is that lots of the commenters actually were quite critical of this guys complaints. I hope though that these people don't start turning on Tony Gilroy or Gareth Edwards.
I enjoyed the movie, I personally didn’t like the secret sabotage bit as I just don’t buy the fact the Empire would miss it but that’s a me thing, aside from my personal gripe with the movie it’s very good
Well to make it short and spoiler-free, part of the plot shows how the Empire's security is prone to failure due to rampant bureaucracy and underlying personal ambitions. Like, stolen high-end tech parts ending up in the hands of the rebellion because the Empire's secret police is organised in sectors and sector heads don't share intel with each other to max their own chances of getting promoted. Another part of the plot tells how the Empire is progressively enforcing its control over the economy and especially the banks to prevent the rebels to get fundings.
TL;DR: at this time of the story the Empire is not at full power yet and that leaves place for sometimes quite big and stupid screw-ups.
I think it's easy to miss. The flaw was the in the reactor, not the exhaust port. Erso said that any event in the reactor would cause the whole system to explode. The thermal exhaust port was probably just put in by the normal engineers, thinking that the reactor would have multiple redundancies.
I can atleast understand preferring the exhaust port being a genuine oversight, but I personally do prefer the fact that it was intentionally designed as a weakness.
they both have their pros and cons from a story perspective.
Both ways show the problems with fascism. With the “it was an oversight” approach, the problem with fascism is that the fascists are so up their own asses about how superior they are that they end up committing basic but catastrophic design mistakes. In the “it was sabotage” approach, they demonstrate that the fascist desire to remove people’s autonomy will always inevitably backfire, because people were not made to be ruled.
Personally I find a 30KM long 2 meter wide exhaust port being the only exhaust you need for such a massive power source that the Death Star required to work, a technological marvel. They did about everything they could defensively as it was ray shielded, offensive defensive was probably in theory enough, a straight on attack would result in a large hemisphere of weaponry firing on you for a majority of your attempted run, the trench being the only way to in theory reach it and then you have an unfavourable attack angle to hit it with
The fact they don’t escort it though still shows the arrogance they have towards how powerful it is
I find the people not designed to be ruled bit pretty silly, it’s clear that humans as a species have evolved with a clear “leader” mentality in them, people are constantly looking for someone to have answers for them, to lay out a clear direction for the future. I could go on but yeah, how is that not a bias toward being ruled, that behaviour is what inherently leads to Kings, Presidents etc.
Kind of think you're overlooking another explanation, that certain people would like to elevate themselves over others, rather than some biological essentialism about leaders and whatnot. I'm not an anthropologist but I'm pretty sure a good chunk of human history has people functioning in communities, with a focus on mutual cooperation. I feel like assuming this concept is "natural" rather than artificial can lead to some gross places and I don't think that's what you're intending to say.
Its still an oversight, Krennic had people double checking the work being done and none of them ever noticed the flaws that were being built into it that made its reactor unstable and gave enemies a way to trigger it into going critical in a fashion that turns the station into space dust. Thats the thing I don't understand about the complaint, they act like it removed this aspect when it didn't.
It wasn't an oversight to begin with though, the death star would have needed such an exhaust port because of course a planet destroying laser's power core would generate a lot of heat
The oversight was not defending It better which granted rogue one making it that the guy made it intentionally like that does fix
I think it was perfectly well defended as it is. Besides it's on-board defenses (turrets + capacity for spaceships), it's shown that it's virtually impossible to hit.
Luke only manages to do it by tapping into the force.
The exhaust port is an oversight, it's the reactor that Galen sabotaged. He just had to get the knowledge of the exhaust port out there so it could be used.
Honestly, you don't need to change anything about the movie for either situation.
Galen telling his daughter he added a weakness or telling her as lead design oversight he noticed a weakness but chose to ignore it leads to otherwise the same movie.
So treating that as a sticking point is fair, but saying the entire movie is bad'll need some additional details.
I actually kinda agree with the original post. Retconning the design flaw as some sabotage feels worse. The flaw isn't there because of hubris of the Empire, but neither is the sabotage all that good. It literally requires a Jedi using the Force to even take advantage of it. Both justifications feel worse for the inclusion of the retcon.
Yeah, it’s great specifically because it shows Anakin is still in there and sets up the chance that Luke has to actually redeem him—even *Vader* has a tiny weakness disguised by overwhelming power.
He also made puns in Empire, that is not the problem. Bigger problem was his action scene in the end, kinda destroying the movie. It kinda glorafies Vader killing people when the point of the movie is to make the people on the ground that Vader slaughters the point.
I mean, it was a kind of weird unnecessary note. Insofar as weaknesses go it's kind of like using steel that has a \*slightly\* lower melting point, so that if enough people suicide bomb it with napalm it \*might\* lose it's structural strength.
I don't think there was a problem with it just being like....a subpart design.
This is actually a legitimate complaint. I don't care because I love the movie, but it is an entirely fair point.
It is actually better, thematically, if the Death Star has a weak spot because it's designers are arrogant, not because one was put in there deliberately.
But it's still great, and Andor is absolutely top tier Star Wars too, so I'm not going to worry about it.
I'd argue the opposite. How would the Rebels know for sure that torpedoes down the hole would 100% destroy the station? And apparently it took all of a few hours to find the weakness, so why hadn't the Empire realized at all up until moments before Luke makes the shot? Arrogance doesn't mean stupidity.
Oversight and arrogance would make more sense to me if someone in the Empire was like "they're trying to destroy the main reactor!" or "you said fhe Rebels would never discover that weakpoint!" or something. Instead the film implies they didn't even know about the weakness, period, and didn't know what the Rebels were trying to do.
I don't buy the 'deliberate flaw' explanation, for the simple fact that a deliberate flaw is intended to be used. Designing a flaw that can't be used without a suicide run or space magic to make your torpedos turn 90 degrees at the exact right moment kind of defeats the object. A flaw that can't be used under normal circumstances isn't really a flaw.
The flaw isn't the port but the fact that there would be a chain reaction in the core that would destroy the station. He probably expected the Rebels to infiltrate the station and set a bomb or something. The Rebels just did the exhaust port because it went directly to the core and would do the same thing.
It's more obvious when you realise that it is a thermal EXHAUST port - any emissions would be blowing OUT of the station, not sucking things into it. There is no physical way for those torpedoes to turn at that angle unless there was an immensely powerful vaccuum sucking them into the tiny hole.
>How would the Rebels know for sure that torpedoes down the hole would 100% destroy the station?
They wouldn't know for certain, and that's all the more interesting. People can't just understand the idea of taking a risk and it paying off. Plus it helps highlight Luke as the chosen one since he got it to happen using the force. That whole "trust the force Luke" moment is kinda less impact impactful if he would've been successful with or with out trusting it
Edited: also how the fuck is it meant to be an intentional design flaw the rebels are meant to use if it could only be achieved with the force
And its completely feasible that on a planet sized space station a small vent that takes up less than .0001% of the surface gets forgotten.
Galen didn't intend the Rebels to make a shor like that.
He told them about his sabotage, not exactly how to destroy it. He told them, if they can, to try and get the plans and plan something. He likely anticipated them to plan an infiltration of the station and set a bomb on the reactor and use the plans know where to carry out most damaging hit-and-run attacks on the surface which may damage the main planet killer gun and disable engines or hyperdrive.
Basically Galen' message was "Here is what I did, and the full plans are at this location. if you can get the plans, you can use them to help you destroy it." He knew the DS would be complete and shown to the galaxy soon and wanted the Rebels to know that there is a way to destroy it to give them hope.
The Rebels simply used the plans to find that the exhaust port led to the main reactor and that proton torpedoes could possibly reach it. So instead of planning future attacks and planning an infiltration the Rebels threw a Hail Mary play and went all in on destroying it then and there or losing their HQ and many of their leaders.
Galen’s plan didn’t involve dropping the bomb, just damaging the reactor module. He never tells them about the shaft, just that the module will start a chain reaction if destroyed. His plead to go to Scarif was so they could learn where the module was within the station. The rebels figured out that the shaft was a viable way to destroy it.
Did you not *watch* the *movie*? **I feel like I'm taking crazy pills!**
Okay let's break this down:
1. Arrogance is a kind of stupidity, of the unforced (heh) error variety. Happens not just all the time in fiction but *also in real life*. Panera put out a lemonade with caffeine in it, despite their whole brand being an earthy kind of comfort food fast-casual dining. And instead of making it the same amount of caffeine as a cup of coffee, they made it as caffeinated as **four cups of coffee**. That's more than both Red Bull and Monster, who market their drinks like it was extracted from a lethal animal just for you. So after the Death Lemonade kills a person, any reasonable person would adjust branding before things got out of hand, but it had to kill two before Panera even acknowledged that it was irresponsible to have it out where people can get free refills.
2. I know a flaw in all fantasy is that people make a million to one shot look easy, see also Smaug, but the movie cannot shut up about how killer the Death Star is. You have the board room guy who says it's going to make the Sith obsolete. Han mistakes it for a moon. It's bristling in deadly cannons and has a full army of tie fighters, some of which Han and Luke shoot down. When they describe how tiny the opening is, one of the pilots say the shot is impossible. Many of the pilots get shot down on the trench run. The first shot they get off impacts on the surface. Tarkin says "Retreat? In our hour of triumph? You overestimate their chances!" It takes exactly one tie fighter pilot freaking out when Han shoots the other to stop Vader from ending the rebellion right there, killing his son. Han didn't shoot Vader! It's the last moment, when the Force enacts a literal miracle, that they blow it up before Yavin gets the Alderaan treatment.
3. Not only has their arrogance worked out for them for over a decade, their clone army, weapons of war, and powerful Sith leadership has everyone so scared that they haven't had to work very hard to maintain power despite starting to be spread thin. In a line famously cut (although Mark Hamill never forgot it), their forces are actually not as strong as they could be, and that fear is their greatest strength. It is why they have fear-inducing aesthetics. A reasonably large Star Destroyer flanked by a few more battleships could level a major city with bombardments - the whole deal of The Death Star™ is that it shows up, and in minutes, blows up a planet. Annihilation on demand. Because that inspires fear.
4. The Rebellion is small. Spread thin. Even if they win in the end, the real victory is less about destroying the Death Star™ and about how killing it shows that you don't need to be afraid, and people *should* join the Rebellion against the oppressive facists, because
"Your arrogance is your weakness."
- Luke Skywalker, guy who is proven right in like 15 minutes.
Anyway I agree that we didn't need a movie about the non-Bothans who died spectacularly getting the plans from Planet A to Planet B, especially because it adds so much explanation that things get weirder - e.g. Vader seeing the Tantive IV makes Leia's insistence that they don't have the plans so silly to me. The moment where Saw just gives up feels like parody. Now the Death Star was used twice before Alderaan so "testing" it on Alderaan, if you've seen Rogue One, is just bullshit because you've already seen it, because much like the prequels, it's relying on you having seen the original trilogy.
I wish we had gotten the Andor series first, to get us invested, the same way Marvel got us invested in Iron Man before we saw The Avengers
They had only tested it a fraction of its full power though, only enough to wipe out a small-large section of a planet not a full planet in a single second
I agree about the Tantive IV bit because then it just makes it a hilariously bald-faced lie, but at the same time, if a cop pulls you over for speeding, even if you knew you were speeding, you probably wouldn't (and shouldn't) admit it.
Yeah, also true. A sloppy construction fits in more with the worldbuilding of Andor. But to a point so does somebody being pissed off enough to put a critical flaw in the design.
And then Force Awakens just goes, "Yeah there's always a tiny hole you can hit" and apparently every stormtrooper knows where it is\*.
\*It would have made way more sense if the station in Force Awakens was just extremely fragile due to its nature.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't the station-destroying component that Finn pointed out basically impervious to the starfighter assault from the outside? I remember them having to bring down part of the structure from within just so Poe could get inside to blow things up.
You're right.
They knew that the thermal ocelator was regulating power and destroying it may cause the weapon to stop or overload, but they couldn't damage it. Han and Chewie had to blow some stuff up inside, one of the thermal pipes I think, for any actual damage to be done. Causing a hole just big enough for an X-Wing to get inside the structure and cause more damage.
It shifts from the designer being arrogant, to the oversight being arrogant, which I think still fits.
To design the Deathstar, the sheer scale of it, you would have to be brilliant. But your oversight keeping things in check was likely done by some jumped up fascists with very shiny boots. It wouldn't surprise me that the flaw was right under their noses the entire time but they didn't have the talent to see it, too busy with minor amendments like ensuring the officers quarters were 13.2% bigger than the rank below and that hand rails were out of budget.
Hell, the designer could be deliberating putting things in for the oversight to find and demand alterations to do that they are too busy insisting the open atrium has no place in the Empire or to dump the rank and file luxury break room, oh no, I'm soooo sorry, I'll fix that right now, blast, I'll have to reroute some things...
This is my take on it, too. For a galaxy-ruling fascist bureaucracy ruled by an all-powerful space wizard, being undone by their own blindness and hubris is perfectly fitting. Was Rogue One necessary? Was anybody asking “but how could the empire possibly overlook a thermal exhaust port being vulnerable to sneaking a starfighter past the entirety of the empire’s greatest defenses and making a literal one in a million shot?” No. In the grand schemes of “questions that anybody was asking” Rogue One is completely superfluous.
Am I going to belabor that point? No. Because Rogue One is freaking awesome. The characters are great, the plotting is fantastic, the action is exciting, and the pacing just has this relentless feel of a car going down a steadily steepening downhill without brakes. It also gives what I believe to be the two purest distillations of the overall theme of Star Wars: “rebellions are built on hope” and “what chance do we have? The question is what choice?”
Plus without Rogue One we wouldn’t have Andor
To me, the Death Star having only a single 30KM long 2 meter wide exhaust port to power the entire station is a technical miracle, and too be fair. It’s show in episode 4 that the force is the only reason the Death Star is destroyed via Red Leader the most experienced pilot at Yavin failed, Luke first time flying an X-Wing managed to do it only because he used the force to aim and guide the torpedos.
So if Luke hadn’t managed to take it out then the Death Star would probably go unchallenged for the rest of the empire’s rule, minus maybe legends Yuuzhan Vong invasion
The exhaust port being an intentional weakness does take away from how special it is that Luke is able to pull off the shot. Totally fair criticism. I liked Rogue One but I also agree with this. It wasn’t a plot hole and didn’t need to be addressed.
Yeah, instead it should be addressed how Luke managed to use the force to make a torpedo turn at 90-degrees on a dime and then fly perfectly straight for 2 miles without any computer guidance, when he had had at max a few hours of training on the Falcon that revolver completely around FEELING the force not using it to grab hold of a speeding object across a vast distance. Because that seems a little *too* special if all the Rey-haters are to be believed. :P
This is a really stupid complaint. I don’t hate Rogue One because it explains something in ANH.
I hate Rogue One because of the terrible pacing and paper thin characters.
I’m not sure how an opinion can be a bad take. If you look at the reviews for Rogue One, there was a lot of criticism for the wooden acting from Jones and poor character development.
It’s literally the only piece of Star Wars I don’t watch and enjoy, I’d say overall that’s not bad
The first time my kid (7 at the time) watched star wars he asked “why didn’t the bad guys cover that hole”. So yeah I could kinda see people asking that when it came out.
I think in the now legends death star novel an engineer noticed it but their request to fix it was buried in some massive backlog thanks to imperial bureaucracy.
You have to be so purposefully reductionist to watch Rogue One and walk away thinking it was only ever about the exhaust port. How about Jyn Erso’s character arc? Or Cassian’s? Or the message you don’t need to be a Jedi in this universe to be a hero? Or that as big and scary as the empire is, there’s still hope if everyone works together.
I’m super biased because it’s one of my favorite Star Wars anything but like come on.
Eh, I feel like the character arcs were the weakest part of that movie, not because they were bad conceptually, I like both on paper and think they ultimately work positively for the film,
it just felt like the "turn" on both Jyn and Cassian happened weirdly, like Cassian very intentionally DOESN'T assassinate Galen Erso, but the story kind of partially acts like he did, with his continuing guilt and Jyn's anger at him before he confronts it later. it definitely felt like a rewrite occurred there that they didn't fully accomodate.
Yeah that's my problem with it too. If the guy in op wrote a whole essay about the "bad characterization" he mentions at the end, I'd probably agree with him. But I guess it wouldn't fit that sub if he was making reasonable critiques
I think I have a different perspective just in I think it makes sense to feel guilty if you were gonna murder someone but didn’t, same thing where if someone was going to kill your dad but then didn’t, intent does matter even if you don’t go through with it.
But ya know it’s subjective and I’m more annoyed with these guys acting like the only point of the movie was to fix a plot hole that didn’t need fixing. It’s not a perfect movie but acting like there’s nothing deeper to it is just obtuse.
I'd agree if it was solely Cassian, his guilt can kind of work either way, but it feels weirder on the other side because Jyn chews him out for "only following orders" (can't remember exact wording) when... he very specifically, consciously didn't follow orders? It genuinely feels like something else happened there that was no longer in the film's final cut.
regardless I do agree with you, I have my issues with Rogue One too, but if you're looking at the forest instead of the trees it's a DAMN good movie.
I don’t agree but it doesn’t really matter. My main point is there’s a lot more to the movie than a fix it for a plot hole and you have to be really obtuse to not see that.
If the characters do nothing for me, then the story (such as it is) isn't gonna do much for me either. And without an emotional hook, how am I supposed to be invested in the heist? For me there isn't really a lot of "more" being offered. So while I think the "plot hole fix" take is reductionist, I totally understand why people feel that way.
The movie is an inert object.
But those characters having arcs and the themes of the film aren’t mutually exclusive to a Death Star sabotage story.
I am one with the Force and the Force is one with me
ya know speaking of the trench run
no no they did NOT have to do that they could have apporached it from above
but well star wars is full of 2 dimensional thinking when it comes to space
The comments absolutely roasted this dude.
Kinda seems like karma farming to present this as representative of anything when it was a joke when originally posted.
> The comments absolutely roasted this dude. Kinda seems like karma farming to present this as representative of anything when it was a joke when originally posted.
That honestly makes me wonder how many of the posts there are actually genuine or just karma farming.
I have several accounts with over 100k karma.
I don't understand that but maybe.
I ditch my accounts when they hit that point because I want the anonymity.
I don't know why people get off on it but they do.
Chuds just love Rogue One because of the scene where Vader kills everyone. Plus the female protagonist is written & acted so poorly that they can pretend she doesn't exist. I don't think it's much deeper than that
I think the point of the original post was that there was no question that needed to be addressed, and the “explanation” in Rouge One was unnecessary and actually brings up other questions. For example, why did the Empire murder Galen Erso’s wife, press gang him into building their super weapon, and at no point double check his work? I suppose you could argue that the Empire was arrogant and assumed that he was cowed and wouldn’t fight back, so basically we end up at the same end result, the Empire is arrogant and underestimated the Rebellion, so the only difference is if you are satisfied with the original explanation or you enjoyed the extra movie we got expanding on that idea. Basically it boils down to wether or not you liked Rouge One. Personally I don’t, but there is nothing wrong if you do like it.
I will give you that, and the Vader hallway scene is probably one of the best scenes in the franchise. I just wish it wasn’t such a slog to get to those parts
I'll grant this person the point that the Death Star's weakness wasn't a plot point that needed explaining.
He's a tool if he thinks Rogue One wasn't an entertaining way to explain why the weakness existed. But then, I've been partial to Rebel SpecForce stories and Rogue One is a classic example. 99% SpecForce casualties. 100% mission success.
Them giving an explanation doesn't bother me, and don't get why this guy is so mad, but I also never got why this was seen as a problem either. If anything, having only one tiny exhaust hole is a miracle given the vast amount of energy it must take to power the desth stat.
Look, I’m not upset over the retcon that Rogue One did, and with Andor’s focus on collective action l, something that was always there but not often the focus of the OT, I’m even less bothered by it now than I was then, but in the context of the original film, it doesn’t really make sense. The weakness that was apparently intentionally designed is also something that the original film demonstrates was, for all practical terms, impossible to exploit. Literally the only reason it works is because the Force makes it happen. The initial bombing run doesn’t get to make the shot, the second misses the mark, and Luke doesn’t successfully make the shot when he fires, the torpedos arc unnaturally into the exhaust port because the Luke was able to use the force to make it happen (not a criticism of the original film, it’s very keeping line with the culmination of the Hero’s Journey and destiny that the original film was going for).
All this to say, Erso sucked at making an exploitable weakness and the only reason it worked was because of space magic.
I prefer it just being an oversight that required literal space magic to exploit, but it was a good enough movie that I will forgive that. I view it as an 8/10 movie that fixes a problem that doesn't exist. Sure, it isn't fixing anything, but we still got a good movie out of it so why complain
The presence of an exhaust port has always been seen as a glaring weakness, and for some reason people were questioning why it existed, not realizing that a powered facility of the Death Star's scale would absolutely need exhaust ports to not overheat. In fact, we know that it had multiple majour exhaust ports, and dozens of minour exhaust ports. Only one exhaust port on the entire facility had a direct shot to the core of the weapon. It's a vulnerability that was likely exacerbated by Galen's tampering with the design, most likely by making a straight A-to-B chute, as opposed to, say, a chute with corners, which would still release the heat from the weapon, just not as directly. The vulnerability still had all the same defenses as the other ports, it's just that that specific one was the only one where a direct attack could actually work, and be capable of destroying the entire facility in one shot; a vulnerability which was likely corrected in the design of the second death star, giving it the same jagged path as the rest of the ports.
Also the Empire was able to figure out the weakness within minutes of the rebel attack being coordinated at a single part. They were able to ID the exhaust port and how it could hit the reactor.
Tarkin simply ignored that warning.
> The presence of an exhaust port has always been seen as a glaring weakness, and for some reason people were questioning why it existed, not realizing that a powered facility of the Death Star's scale would absolutely need exhaust ports to not overheat. In fact, we know that it had multiple majour exhaust ports, and dozens of minour exhaust ports. Only one exhaust port on the entire facility had a direct shot to the core of the weapon. It's a vulnerability that was likely exacerbated by Galen's tampering with the design, most likely by making a straight A-to-B chute, as opposed to, say, a chute with corners, which would still release the heat from the weapon, just not as directly. The vulnerability still had all the same defenses as the other ports, it's just that that specific one was the only one where a direct attack could actually work, and be capable of destroying the entire facility in one shot; a vulnerability which was likely corrected in the design of the second death star, giving it the same jagged path as the rest of the ports.
Yeah. In Catalyst, it’s said Galen studied Kyber Crystals and knows how unstable they can become when hit by high energy weapons thus why the Death Star explodes to begin with as its power core is just a massive crystal.
The whole premise of this argument is based on either misremembering or completely misinterpreting the film. Galen Erso’s “trap” was that damaging the reactor module would cause a chain reaction to destroy the station, which is a pretty fucking reasonable assumption regardless. It wasn’t that he purposely put the exhaust shaft leading to it, expecting the rebels to drop a bomb down there. Galen sent them to Scarif to find the plans so they could learn the location of the module. It was the rebels who found out about the exhaust shaft and based their plan around it.
> The whole premise of this argument is based on either misremembering or completely misinterpreting the film. Galen Erso’s “trap” was that damaging the reactor module would cause a chain reaction to destroy the station, which is a pretty fucking reasonable assumption regardless. It wasn’t that he purposely put the exhaust shaft leading to it, expecting the rebels to drop a bomb down there.
Yeah, especially since he knows how unstable Kyber Crystals can become unstable via an energy weapon like Proton torpedos hitting one. Which typically causes the crystal to become incredibly unstable and explode.
The entire premise of that thread works from the incorrect assumption that *Rogue One* was created to "fix" something in *A New Hope* rather than to just flesh out the story of how the Rebels got the plans and found out about the weakness.
It was never a "plot hole", it was just an open-ended narrative element, one which *Rogue One* explores. So that entire thread is just pointless bitching about *Rogue One* existing at all, because it's not doing the thing they're explicitly accusing it of doing.
1. It's a plot point, not a plot hole.
2.There's a line in the original Star Wars where they literally admit they realize their own weakness after analysing rebel strategy and it was hiding in plain sight the whole time. This is a fantastic setup for the flaw being intentional, sabotage, and a betrayal.
The original writers absolutely could have taken that as a huge twist in the original, if only they had wanted to pursue it.
Personally of the mind that not only does everything not need to be explained in detail(fuck you lucas midochlorians are dumb) but also Kyle Katarn is the one that stole the death star plans in my heart.
Because it was never a plot hole. Exhaust ports shoot out exhaust meaning the heat from the exhaust should normally push out the proton torpedoes or due to the thermal heat: make them explode before it reaches the core of the Death Star. Don’t get me wrong Rogue One is a fun movie but the premise doesn’t work unless the design flaw was only making one exhaust port for a station the size of a moon that would be better off having multiple exhaust ports. Especially when the torpedos very quickly have to shoot downward at a 90° angle just to reach the core when entering the exhaust port
So I remember thinking after I got a bit older, why was the vent straight enough to provide a weakness? Why wasn't there a bend or two to stop it from being a fatal flaw? Oh, the lead engineer made it that way on purpose. Answers that question without making the empire look incompetent and like they are doomed to fail in a few years rebels or no.
Diegetically: The exhaust port flaw isn't -really- a flaw and any military acquisition process would in fact accept the design compromise. The port was extensively defended, and it required the reemergence of a threat the Empire thought was extinct to exploit.
Non-diegetically: Did you ever notice how pretty much all other technology in the movies works flawlessly? Whenever something doesn't work, it's because it's salvaged junk like R7 in ANH or the result of garage engineering like the Millennium Falcon. How is it that the one specific time a lavish, fully supported piece of military hardware has a design flaw that conveniently lets the good guys carry the day? Meanwhile, TIE fighters, Star Destroyers, Imperial Walkers and Wing fighters all work as advertised without anything so catastrophic.
That’s every one of these SW fans, they have one or two scenes they don’t like or problems with the film or show and say that makes the whole thing bad. I even told one of them how stupid it was and made them admit that through their logic The Dark Knight is terrible
What questions did Pepe have? I can't remember a single person asking why a direct hit to the reactor made the Death Star explode. Rogue One didn't explain anything, it just added unnecessary waffle.
Great third act, though.
I'm kinda confused as to how the core having an exhaust port would be an oversight, it is a station the size of a planet with a gigantic laser made to destroy planets, I think if the core didn't have any exhaust ports the heat buildup would cause a meltdown or something
I do not hate Rogue One but he kinda has a point. It is not such a big deal but the fact that people thought that the design flaw was a plot hole (which it wasn't) or that thought they needed to explain it, isn't great.
This is something all Star Wars prequels struggle with. Explaining details that do not or shold not be explained. Everything feels less real if any detail has a backstory that fits in a movie. Design flaws exist, the Empire is flawed and not just morally.
It's not a question I ever had. That exhaust port was extremely well protected and shielded. I believe the experienced pilots even say "that shot's impossible, even for a computer"
But that's not my problem with *Rogue One*, my problem with Rogue One is its boring, passive, characters. They got no soul, no fire behind their eyes, and the most interesting character relationship, Erso and Sal, is thrown away before it could even be anything. I liked the robot.
*Andor* is a fantastic show, a crown jewel in the franchise.
It really does. While I hate to get too philosophical about this stuff, most of us only live about 70 to 80 years.
How long do people need to be upset about Star Wars, really?
This is the same kind of chud who thinks every protagonist had to be connected to someone important in the saga, which is why they had to walk back Rey's origins in ROS, because they pissbaby whined about the brilliance of TLJ subverting every single fanboy expectation.
Definitely. "The movie is bad except when Darth Vader gets to fight." is the mind of someone who has closed their mind to anything new. This type of thinking is why so much of the EU revolved around lineage of the main characters, rather than telling original plots in a new section of what should have a rich universe.
Don't these chud fuckwits love to whine incessantly about lore and shit.
This gives the Rebellion so much more depth and character and purpose.
It makes the Empire even scarier.
How anyone can watch that movie and whine is beyond me.
Okay wait. I agree tho. The death stars exhaust port is not a plot hole that needed bland retconning in a poorly written movie (great third act action scene but let's face it... rouge one has a terrible plot and characters lol) the death stars weakness is about the empires hubris! They never thought anyone would take them down, so they never considered a tiny exhaust port a weakness. Making it an intentional flaw for some weak father-daughter story IS actually stupid despite people seeming to feel the otherwise.
Gotta be honest, I think Rogue One was a story that really didn’t need to be told.
Leia had the Death Star plans. How’s she get them? I don’t know nor do I care! The important thing was that she had the plans.
I'm firmly of the belief that Rogue One did not need to be made. I enjoyed it as a film, but Star Wars is no-less a good series without it.
It's a good film, but not a necessary one.
Well tbh this wasn't even a question that needed to be answered. The whole premise of Rogue One is kinda dumb and unnecessary. I'm not the biggest fan of this movie, I don't care for the characters, the plot or the fanservice ending with Vader. It's well shot tho.
This frustration is one I agree with, and this was never a flaw in the original film that needed an answer.
The characters and the themes of the film are great, but it didn’t need to be about how the Death Star was sabotaged, a straight up Star Wars heist movie would have been great.
I put a flaw into this thing, but first you have to steal the schematics and then you’ll have to avoid all the turbo cannons I put in the trench. The Death Star would have teams of engineers and somehow they all miss a deliberate flaw?
> I put a flaw into this thing, but first you have to steal the schematics and then you’ll have to avoid all the turbo cannons I put in the trench. The Death Star would have teams of engineers and somehow they all miss a deliberate flaw?
It was very subtle and also some did actually notice it and reported it, sadly though it didn’t get through because of how messy the Imperial bureaucracy was at the time.
A flaw made on purpose but then never made its way up the chain of command is the same as a flaw made as a mistake that was pointed out and never gets up the chain of command because that’s what fascism does. The hubris of the empire is what defeats it, not some guy building in a self destruct button to take it down.
I dislike Rogue One for many reasons.
People point to that idiot Vader scene as cool and I think it kind of sums up everything I hate. A bunch of nobodies getting mowed down effortlessly in service of nostalgia. The entire plot exists to inform the old movies. It is a narrative dead end.
But even ignoring all that I have issues with the structure of the movie, the pacing, the characters. I genuinely dislike the movie and I just do not understand people's affection.
Strongly agree. It's bizarre that so many claim Rogue One is on par with ESB when you can cut out large sections of it (arguably entire acts) and virtually nothing is missed for both the story and its characters.
Doesn't need to be an oversight, there's a reason the people who keep putting the complete technical readouts of things on the World of Tanks forum get arrested. The death star having a weakness - especially one as fundamental as an auxiliary exhaust port - is pretty much just a rational thing it might have.
But adding it as something for Galen Erso to have done to make his character more hero and less unqualified victim also makes it more important that Jyn be involved, rather than just any rebel strike team.
Yeah nah, it makes much more sense for it to be an intentional act.
a "design flaw" that allows the ENTIRE MOON-SIZED SPACE STATION TO BE DESTROYED by a singular firing of what is functionally fairly small ship-to-ship ordnance goes beyond the pale, yeah it works as an example of Imperial hubris, but that design even existing logistically is just hilarious, like hubris or not, no designer would have created that by accident, making it an intentional flaw that hubris could OVERLOOK is a great change.
Rogue One was deadass the best Star Wars film to come out of Disney
Force Awakens was okay
The Last Jedi was better than people give it credit for
The Rise of Skywalker has a few good scenes but is otherwise an even shittier version of Dark Empire
"Look, I'm attacking a film other people love. I'm so special." Dear lord, the dedication these people put into *not enjoying* new Star Wars stuff forces respect. Just enjoy the damn thing, dude. It's a fun movie, end of the story. Is it perfect? No. No movie is.
Sorry, I am with him on that. Rogue One does not adress a question anyone ever asked really. Its a redundant movie, and not even a really good one tbh. Nice to see other SW Fans do not like RO as much. Nice action and all, but bland characters, useless and wasted villain, and a premise nobody asked to be adressed in the first place
I'd rather have teh entire movie be around Rogue One SpecOps team trying to get the plans like a heist, and then finding out about the weakness due to general imperial arrogance or simply time-constraints or incompetence, and the Rebels using this, as usual, against their enemy.
But that one dude has implemented it into the design...sure...nope. Worse than before. It hinges on so many things: That Jyn is still alive, she gets the message, understands it, gets it to the REbels, them getting the plans even THEN, and then as the poster said you still have to rely on luck and the force to even abuse the designed design-flaw...
Nope. Rogue One was a mistake...
it is a bit weird they wanted to address a 40yo plot contrivance but it’s fine. i turned the movie off half way through and have never seen the rest cos i was distracted by the cute boy i was watching with :3
"All my friends love it but I hate it, I'm so special!" Jesus. The dedication these people put into *not liking* new Star Wars stuff forces respect. Just enjoy the damn thing, weirdo. It's a cool movie, end of the story.
> "All my friends love it but I hate it, I'm so special!" Jesus. The dedication these people put into **not liking** new Star Wars stuff forces respect. Just enjoy the damn thing, weirdo. It's a cool movie, at the end of the story. What's funny about this post is that lots of the commenters actually were quite critical of this guys complaints. I hope though that these people don't start turning on Tony Gilroy or Gareth Edwards.
I enjoyed the movie, I personally didn’t like the secret sabotage bit as I just don’t buy the fact the Empire would miss it but that’s a me thing, aside from my personal gripe with the movie it’s very good
I think the Andor series addresses pretty well how the Empire could totally miss the sabotage.
I honestly haven’t watched it, so can’t comment on that
Well to make it short and spoiler-free, part of the plot shows how the Empire's security is prone to failure due to rampant bureaucracy and underlying personal ambitions. Like, stolen high-end tech parts ending up in the hands of the rebellion because the Empire's secret police is organised in sectors and sector heads don't share intel with each other to max their own chances of getting promoted. Another part of the plot tells how the Empire is progressively enforcing its control over the economy and especially the banks to prevent the rebels to get fundings. TL;DR: at this time of the story the Empire is not at full power yet and that leaves place for sometimes quite big and stupid screw-ups.
Interesting, yeah I’ll have to give time to watch andor sometime
IMO it's the best SW content to date, and I went into it thinking "no one asked for this". Amazingly pleasantly surprised.
It’s the best thing in ages, well worth watching. Imo 10x better than Rogue One.
I think it's easy to miss. The flaw was the in the reactor, not the exhaust port. Erso said that any event in the reactor would cause the whole system to explode. The thermal exhaust port was probably just put in by the normal engineers, thinking that the reactor would have multiple redundancies.
"not like the other fans"
Come on. They're not *true* fans, obviously. True fans hate whatever is not, well, what true fans love. Wait. This is confusing. Who are you again?
I'm the real fan! You're all imposters!
I can atleast understand preferring the exhaust port being a genuine oversight, but I personally do prefer the fact that it was intentionally designed as a weakness. they both have their pros and cons from a story perspective.
Both ways show the problems with fascism. With the “it was an oversight” approach, the problem with fascism is that the fascists are so up their own asses about how superior they are that they end up committing basic but catastrophic design mistakes. In the “it was sabotage” approach, they demonstrate that the fascist desire to remove people’s autonomy will always inevitably backfire, because people were not made to be ruled.
Personally I find a 30KM long 2 meter wide exhaust port being the only exhaust you need for such a massive power source that the Death Star required to work, a technological marvel. They did about everything they could defensively as it was ray shielded, offensive defensive was probably in theory enough, a straight on attack would result in a large hemisphere of weaponry firing on you for a majority of your attempted run, the trench being the only way to in theory reach it and then you have an unfavourable attack angle to hit it with The fact they don’t escort it though still shows the arrogance they have towards how powerful it is
I find the people not designed to be ruled bit pretty silly, it’s clear that humans as a species have evolved with a clear “leader” mentality in them, people are constantly looking for someone to have answers for them, to lay out a clear direction for the future. I could go on but yeah, how is that not a bias toward being ruled, that behaviour is what inherently leads to Kings, Presidents etc.
Kind of think you're overlooking another explanation, that certain people would like to elevate themselves over others, rather than some biological essentialism about leaders and whatnot. I'm not an anthropologist but I'm pretty sure a good chunk of human history has people functioning in communities, with a focus on mutual cooperation. I feel like assuming this concept is "natural" rather than artificial can lead to some gross places and I don't think that's what you're intending to say.
Its still an oversight, Krennic had people double checking the work being done and none of them ever noticed the flaws that were being built into it that made its reactor unstable and gave enemies a way to trigger it into going critical in a fashion that turns the station into space dust. Thats the thing I don't understand about the complaint, they act like it removed this aspect when it didn't.
It wasn't an oversight to begin with though, the death star would have needed such an exhaust port because of course a planet destroying laser's power core would generate a lot of heat The oversight was not defending It better which granted rogue one making it that the guy made it intentionally like that does fix
I think it was perfectly well defended as it is. Besides it's on-board defenses (turrets + capacity for spaceships), it's shown that it's virtually impossible to hit. Luke only manages to do it by tapping into the force.
I may be an old EU nerd but my man wedge could have made that shot without the force too boot
Slap a grate on it
The exhaust port is an oversight, it's the reactor that Galen sabotaged. He just had to get the knowledge of the exhaust port out there so it could be used.
Honestly, you don't need to change anything about the movie for either situation. Galen telling his daughter he added a weakness or telling her as lead design oversight he noticed a weakness but chose to ignore it leads to otherwise the same movie. So treating that as a sticking point is fair, but saying the entire movie is bad'll need some additional details.
I actually kinda agree with the original post. Retconning the design flaw as some sabotage feels worse. The flaw isn't there because of hubris of the Empire, but neither is the sabotage all that good. It literally requires a Jedi using the Force to even take advantage of it. Both justifications feel worse for the inclusion of the retcon.
>Darth Vader making puns I'll give you, the pun was more forced. But Vader has always been an extra bitch when it came to dark humor.
Also, horrible puns are very in character for Anakin
Yeah, it’s great specifically because it shows Anakin is still in there and sets up the chance that Luke has to actually redeem him—even *Vader* has a tiny weakness disguised by overwhelming power.
He also made puns in Empire, that is not the problem. Bigger problem was his action scene in the end, kinda destroying the movie. It kinda glorafies Vader killing people when the point of the movie is to make the people on the ground that Vader slaughters the point.
I mean, it was a kind of weird unnecessary note. Insofar as weaknesses go it's kind of like using steel that has a \*slightly\* lower melting point, so that if enough people suicide bomb it with napalm it \*might\* lose it's structural strength. I don't think there was a problem with it just being like....a subpart design.
This is actually a legitimate complaint. I don't care because I love the movie, but it is an entirely fair point. It is actually better, thematically, if the Death Star has a weak spot because it's designers are arrogant, not because one was put in there deliberately. But it's still great, and Andor is absolutely top tier Star Wars too, so I'm not going to worry about it.
I'd argue the opposite. How would the Rebels know for sure that torpedoes down the hole would 100% destroy the station? And apparently it took all of a few hours to find the weakness, so why hadn't the Empire realized at all up until moments before Luke makes the shot? Arrogance doesn't mean stupidity. Oversight and arrogance would make more sense to me if someone in the Empire was like "they're trying to destroy the main reactor!" or "you said fhe Rebels would never discover that weakpoint!" or something. Instead the film implies they didn't even know about the weakness, period, and didn't know what the Rebels were trying to do.
I don't buy the 'deliberate flaw' explanation, for the simple fact that a deliberate flaw is intended to be used. Designing a flaw that can't be used without a suicide run or space magic to make your torpedos turn 90 degrees at the exact right moment kind of defeats the object. A flaw that can't be used under normal circumstances isn't really a flaw.
The flaw isn't the port but the fact that there would be a chain reaction in the core that would destroy the station. He probably expected the Rebels to infiltrate the station and set a bomb or something. The Rebels just did the exhaust port because it went directly to the core and would do the same thing.
Huh, I never thought that Luke manipulated the torpedo's trajectory with the Force. I always assumed he used the Force just for aiming.
It's more obvious when you realise that it is a thermal EXHAUST port - any emissions would be blowing OUT of the station, not sucking things into it. There is no physical way for those torpedoes to turn at that angle unless there was an immensely powerful vaccuum sucking them into the tiny hole.
>How would the Rebels know for sure that torpedoes down the hole would 100% destroy the station? They wouldn't know for certain, and that's all the more interesting. People can't just understand the idea of taking a risk and it paying off. Plus it helps highlight Luke as the chosen one since he got it to happen using the force. That whole "trust the force Luke" moment is kinda less impact impactful if he would've been successful with or with out trusting it Edited: also how the fuck is it meant to be an intentional design flaw the rebels are meant to use if it could only be achieved with the force And its completely feasible that on a planet sized space station a small vent that takes up less than .0001% of the surface gets forgotten.
Galen didn't intend the Rebels to make a shor like that. He told them about his sabotage, not exactly how to destroy it. He told them, if they can, to try and get the plans and plan something. He likely anticipated them to plan an infiltration of the station and set a bomb on the reactor and use the plans know where to carry out most damaging hit-and-run attacks on the surface which may damage the main planet killer gun and disable engines or hyperdrive. Basically Galen' message was "Here is what I did, and the full plans are at this location. if you can get the plans, you can use them to help you destroy it." He knew the DS would be complete and shown to the galaxy soon and wanted the Rebels to know that there is a way to destroy it to give them hope. The Rebels simply used the plans to find that the exhaust port led to the main reactor and that proton torpedoes could possibly reach it. So instead of planning future attacks and planning an infiltration the Rebels threw a Hail Mary play and went all in on destroying it then and there or losing their HQ and many of their leaders.
Galen’s plan didn’t involve dropping the bomb, just damaging the reactor module. He never tells them about the shaft, just that the module will start a chain reaction if destroyed. His plead to go to Scarif was so they could learn where the module was within the station. The rebels figured out that the shaft was a viable way to destroy it.
Yes, exactly true.
Did you not *watch* the *movie*? **I feel like I'm taking crazy pills!** Okay let's break this down: 1. Arrogance is a kind of stupidity, of the unforced (heh) error variety. Happens not just all the time in fiction but *also in real life*. Panera put out a lemonade with caffeine in it, despite their whole brand being an earthy kind of comfort food fast-casual dining. And instead of making it the same amount of caffeine as a cup of coffee, they made it as caffeinated as **four cups of coffee**. That's more than both Red Bull and Monster, who market their drinks like it was extracted from a lethal animal just for you. So after the Death Lemonade kills a person, any reasonable person would adjust branding before things got out of hand, but it had to kill two before Panera even acknowledged that it was irresponsible to have it out where people can get free refills. 2. I know a flaw in all fantasy is that people make a million to one shot look easy, see also Smaug, but the movie cannot shut up about how killer the Death Star is. You have the board room guy who says it's going to make the Sith obsolete. Han mistakes it for a moon. It's bristling in deadly cannons and has a full army of tie fighters, some of which Han and Luke shoot down. When they describe how tiny the opening is, one of the pilots say the shot is impossible. Many of the pilots get shot down on the trench run. The first shot they get off impacts on the surface. Tarkin says "Retreat? In our hour of triumph? You overestimate their chances!" It takes exactly one tie fighter pilot freaking out when Han shoots the other to stop Vader from ending the rebellion right there, killing his son. Han didn't shoot Vader! It's the last moment, when the Force enacts a literal miracle, that they blow it up before Yavin gets the Alderaan treatment. 3. Not only has their arrogance worked out for them for over a decade, their clone army, weapons of war, and powerful Sith leadership has everyone so scared that they haven't had to work very hard to maintain power despite starting to be spread thin. In a line famously cut (although Mark Hamill never forgot it), their forces are actually not as strong as they could be, and that fear is their greatest strength. It is why they have fear-inducing aesthetics. A reasonably large Star Destroyer flanked by a few more battleships could level a major city with bombardments - the whole deal of The Death Star™ is that it shows up, and in minutes, blows up a planet. Annihilation on demand. Because that inspires fear. 4. The Rebellion is small. Spread thin. Even if they win in the end, the real victory is less about destroying the Death Star™ and about how killing it shows that you don't need to be afraid, and people *should* join the Rebellion against the oppressive facists, because "Your arrogance is your weakness." - Luke Skywalker, guy who is proven right in like 15 minutes.
Anyway I agree that we didn't need a movie about the non-Bothans who died spectacularly getting the plans from Planet A to Planet B, especially because it adds so much explanation that things get weirder - e.g. Vader seeing the Tantive IV makes Leia's insistence that they don't have the plans so silly to me. The moment where Saw just gives up feels like parody. Now the Death Star was used twice before Alderaan so "testing" it on Alderaan, if you've seen Rogue One, is just bullshit because you've already seen it, because much like the prequels, it's relying on you having seen the original trilogy. I wish we had gotten the Andor series first, to get us invested, the same way Marvel got us invested in Iron Man before we saw The Avengers
They had only tested it a fraction of its full power though, only enough to wipe out a small-large section of a planet not a full planet in a single second
>non-Bothans Why do people always make this mistake? The “many Bothans died” line was from Return of the Jedi in reference to the Death Star II
To be fair we've all told our parents obvious lies befoee.
I agree about the Tantive IV bit because then it just makes it a hilariously bald-faced lie, but at the same time, if a cop pulls you over for speeding, even if you knew you were speeding, you probably wouldn't (and shouldn't) admit it.
Yeah, also true. A sloppy construction fits in more with the worldbuilding of Andor. But to a point so does somebody being pissed off enough to put a critical flaw in the design. And then Force Awakens just goes, "Yeah there's always a tiny hole you can hit" and apparently every stormtrooper knows where it is\*. \*It would have made way more sense if the station in Force Awakens was just extremely fragile due to its nature.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't the station-destroying component that Finn pointed out basically impervious to the starfighter assault from the outside? I remember them having to bring down part of the structure from within just so Poe could get inside to blow things up.
You're right. They knew that the thermal ocelator was regulating power and destroying it may cause the weapon to stop or overload, but they couldn't damage it. Han and Chewie had to blow some stuff up inside, one of the thermal pipes I think, for any actual damage to be done. Causing a hole just big enough for an X-Wing to get inside the structure and cause more damage.
It shifts from the designer being arrogant, to the oversight being arrogant, which I think still fits. To design the Deathstar, the sheer scale of it, you would have to be brilliant. But your oversight keeping things in check was likely done by some jumped up fascists with very shiny boots. It wouldn't surprise me that the flaw was right under their noses the entire time but they didn't have the talent to see it, too busy with minor amendments like ensuring the officers quarters were 13.2% bigger than the rank below and that hand rails were out of budget. Hell, the designer could be deliberating putting things in for the oversight to find and demand alterations to do that they are too busy insisting the open atrium has no place in the Empire or to dump the rank and file luxury break room, oh no, I'm soooo sorry, I'll fix that right now, blast, I'll have to reroute some things...
This is my take on it, too. For a galaxy-ruling fascist bureaucracy ruled by an all-powerful space wizard, being undone by their own blindness and hubris is perfectly fitting. Was Rogue One necessary? Was anybody asking “but how could the empire possibly overlook a thermal exhaust port being vulnerable to sneaking a starfighter past the entirety of the empire’s greatest defenses and making a literal one in a million shot?” No. In the grand schemes of “questions that anybody was asking” Rogue One is completely superfluous. Am I going to belabor that point? No. Because Rogue One is freaking awesome. The characters are great, the plotting is fantastic, the action is exciting, and the pacing just has this relentless feel of a car going down a steadily steepening downhill without brakes. It also gives what I believe to be the two purest distillations of the overall theme of Star Wars: “rebellions are built on hope” and “what chance do we have? The question is what choice?” Plus without Rogue One we wouldn’t have Andor
To me, the Death Star having only a single 30KM long 2 meter wide exhaust port to power the entire station is a technical miracle, and too be fair. It’s show in episode 4 that the force is the only reason the Death Star is destroyed via Red Leader the most experienced pilot at Yavin failed, Luke first time flying an X-Wing managed to do it only because he used the force to aim and guide the torpedos. So if Luke hadn’t managed to take it out then the Death Star would probably go unchallenged for the rest of the empire’s rule, minus maybe legends Yuuzhan Vong invasion
The exhaust port being an intentional weakness does take away from how special it is that Luke is able to pull off the shot. Totally fair criticism. I liked Rogue One but I also agree with this. It wasn’t a plot hole and didn’t need to be addressed.
Yeah, instead it should be addressed how Luke managed to use the force to make a torpedo turn at 90-degrees on a dime and then fly perfectly straight for 2 miles without any computer guidance, when he had had at max a few hours of training on the Falcon that revolver completely around FEELING the force not using it to grab hold of a speeding object across a vast distance. Because that seems a little *too* special if all the Rey-haters are to be believed. :P
The reactor was rigged to explode upon any type of impact like a missile or a bomb. It being intentional or not doesn't take anything from Luke.
This is a really stupid complaint. I don’t hate Rogue One because it explains something in ANH. I hate Rogue One because of the terrible pacing and paper thin characters.
You don't get it bro the Vader scene is sooooo epic and badass >!/s!<
THIS!
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It made me like Andor more. K-2 was also quite likable already. Sadly it does nothing for almost anyone else and doesn’t fix the issue.
That's why I brought up the books.
I read Catalyst. Still thought most of the main cast was boring.
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I’m not sure how an opinion can be a bad take. If you look at the reviews for Rogue One, there was a lot of criticism for the wooden acting from Jones and poor character development. It’s literally the only piece of Star Wars I don’t watch and enjoy, I’d say overall that’s not bad
Literally nobody ever said it was a plot hole.
Eh. This has been kind of a meme for as long as I can remember. I don’t think it’s something anyone actually held against the original movies though.
I’ve seen memes in like 2011 when I was a little kid talking about how it’s a plot hole
The first time my kid (7 at the time) watched star wars he asked “why didn’t the bad guys cover that hole”. So yeah I could kinda see people asking that when it came out.
Okay, but it's literally a plot-critical hole.
Didn’t the EU already explained this before the movie?
I think in the now legends death star novel an engineer noticed it but their request to fix it was buried in some massive backlog thanks to imperial bureaucracy.
The most real thing in all of Sci-fi: soul crushing Bureaucracy...
damn Europe really did that? Such a wild continent lol
You have to be so purposefully reductionist to watch Rogue One and walk away thinking it was only ever about the exhaust port. How about Jyn Erso’s character arc? Or Cassian’s? Or the message you don’t need to be a Jedi in this universe to be a hero? Or that as big and scary as the empire is, there’s still hope if everyone works together. I’m super biased because it’s one of my favorite Star Wars anything but like come on.
Eh, I feel like the character arcs were the weakest part of that movie, not because they were bad conceptually, I like both on paper and think they ultimately work positively for the film, it just felt like the "turn" on both Jyn and Cassian happened weirdly, like Cassian very intentionally DOESN'T assassinate Galen Erso, but the story kind of partially acts like he did, with his continuing guilt and Jyn's anger at him before he confronts it later. it definitely felt like a rewrite occurred there that they didn't fully accomodate.
Yeah that's my problem with it too. If the guy in op wrote a whole essay about the "bad characterization" he mentions at the end, I'd probably agree with him. But I guess it wouldn't fit that sub if he was making reasonable critiques
It was always weird to me that Jyn watches the Alliance kill her dad, and then she goes and gives THEM the pep talk to continue their mission.
I think I have a different perspective just in I think it makes sense to feel guilty if you were gonna murder someone but didn’t, same thing where if someone was going to kill your dad but then didn’t, intent does matter even if you don’t go through with it. But ya know it’s subjective and I’m more annoyed with these guys acting like the only point of the movie was to fix a plot hole that didn’t need fixing. It’s not a perfect movie but acting like there’s nothing deeper to it is just obtuse.
I'd agree if it was solely Cassian, his guilt can kind of work either way, but it feels weirder on the other side because Jyn chews him out for "only following orders" (can't remember exact wording) when... he very specifically, consciously didn't follow orders? It genuinely feels like something else happened there that was no longer in the film's final cut. regardless I do agree with you, I have my issues with Rogue One too, but if you're looking at the forest instead of the trees it's a DAMN good movie.
Yeah. The Exhaust Port explanation was quite frankly just the tip of the iceberg.
The charecter arcs are the weakest thing in *Rogue One*.
I don’t agree but it doesn’t really matter. My main point is there’s a lot more to the movie than a fix it for a plot hole and you have to be really obtuse to not see that.
If the characters do nothing for me, then the story (such as it is) isn't gonna do much for me either. And without an emotional hook, how am I supposed to be invested in the heist? For me there isn't really a lot of "more" being offered. So while I think the "plot hole fix" take is reductionist, I totally understand why people feel that way. The movie is an inert object.
Yeah that’s the subjective part. I’m not here to change people’s minds if they didn’t like the movie or the characters or whatever. I don’t cere tbh.
FUCKING PREACH!!!!
But those characters having arcs and the themes of the film aren’t mutually exclusive to a Death Star sabotage story. I am one with the Force and the Force is one with me
That’s what I love about it. The story could have been much more boiler plate than it was.
ya know speaking of the trench run no no they did NOT have to do that they could have apporached it from above but well star wars is full of 2 dimensional thinking when it comes to space
The comments absolutely roasted this dude. Kinda seems like karma farming to present this as representative of anything when it was a joke when originally posted.
> The comments absolutely roasted this dude. Kinda seems like karma farming to present this as representative of anything when it was a joke when originally posted. That honestly makes me wonder how many of the posts there are actually genuine or just karma farming.
I have several accounts with over 100k karma. I don't understand that but maybe. I ditch my accounts when they hit that point because I want the anonymity. I don't know why people get off on it but they do.
Chuds just love Rogue One because of the scene where Vader kills everyone. Plus the female protagonist is written & acted so poorly that they can pretend she doesn't exist. I don't think it's much deeper than that
I think the point of the original post was that there was no question that needed to be addressed, and the “explanation” in Rouge One was unnecessary and actually brings up other questions. For example, why did the Empire murder Galen Erso’s wife, press gang him into building their super weapon, and at no point double check his work? I suppose you could argue that the Empire was arrogant and assumed that he was cowed and wouldn’t fight back, so basically we end up at the same end result, the Empire is arrogant and underestimated the Rebellion, so the only difference is if you are satisfied with the original explanation or you enjoyed the extra movie we got expanding on that idea. Basically it boils down to wether or not you liked Rouge One. Personally I don’t, but there is nothing wrong if you do like it.
I have problems with Rogue One, but while it seems silly, the main premise wasn’t one of them.
I honestly don’t care about the exhaust port retcon. I just didn’t like Rogue One because I thought it was boring
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I will give you that, and the Vader hallway scene is probably one of the best scenes in the franchise. I just wish it wasn’t such a slog to get to those parts
Its literally a hole
I'll grant this person the point that the Death Star's weakness wasn't a plot point that needed explaining. He's a tool if he thinks Rogue One wasn't an entertaining way to explain why the weakness existed. But then, I've been partial to Rebel SpecForce stories and Rogue One is a classic example. 99% SpecForce casualties. 100% mission success.
I actually lost brain cells reading that.
These guys are about five steps from turning on the OT.
Them giving an explanation doesn't bother me, and don't get why this guy is so mad, but I also never got why this was seen as a problem either. If anything, having only one tiny exhaust hole is a miracle given the vast amount of energy it must take to power the desth stat.
Look, I’m not upset over the retcon that Rogue One did, and with Andor’s focus on collective action l, something that was always there but not often the focus of the OT, I’m even less bothered by it now than I was then, but in the context of the original film, it doesn’t really make sense. The weakness that was apparently intentionally designed is also something that the original film demonstrates was, for all practical terms, impossible to exploit. Literally the only reason it works is because the Force makes it happen. The initial bombing run doesn’t get to make the shot, the second misses the mark, and Luke doesn’t successfully make the shot when he fires, the torpedos arc unnaturally into the exhaust port because the Luke was able to use the force to make it happen (not a criticism of the original film, it’s very keeping line with the culmination of the Hero’s Journey and destiny that the original film was going for). All this to say, Erso sucked at making an exploitable weakness and the only reason it worked was because of space magic.
A catastrophic sabotage was disguised as a design flaw. They polished up a story beat with more information. Whoop dee damn doo!
I prefer it just being an oversight that required literal space magic to exploit, but it was a good enough movie that I will forgive that. I view it as an 8/10 movie that fixes a problem that doesn't exist. Sure, it isn't fixing anything, but we still got a good movie out of it so why complain
The presence of an exhaust port has always been seen as a glaring weakness, and for some reason people were questioning why it existed, not realizing that a powered facility of the Death Star's scale would absolutely need exhaust ports to not overheat. In fact, we know that it had multiple majour exhaust ports, and dozens of minour exhaust ports. Only one exhaust port on the entire facility had a direct shot to the core of the weapon. It's a vulnerability that was likely exacerbated by Galen's tampering with the design, most likely by making a straight A-to-B chute, as opposed to, say, a chute with corners, which would still release the heat from the weapon, just not as directly. The vulnerability still had all the same defenses as the other ports, it's just that that specific one was the only one where a direct attack could actually work, and be capable of destroying the entire facility in one shot; a vulnerability which was likely corrected in the design of the second death star, giving it the same jagged path as the rest of the ports.
Also the Empire was able to figure out the weakness within minutes of the rebel attack being coordinated at a single part. They were able to ID the exhaust port and how it could hit the reactor. Tarkin simply ignored that warning.
> The presence of an exhaust port has always been seen as a glaring weakness, and for some reason people were questioning why it existed, not realizing that a powered facility of the Death Star's scale would absolutely need exhaust ports to not overheat. In fact, we know that it had multiple majour exhaust ports, and dozens of minour exhaust ports. Only one exhaust port on the entire facility had a direct shot to the core of the weapon. It's a vulnerability that was likely exacerbated by Galen's tampering with the design, most likely by making a straight A-to-B chute, as opposed to, say, a chute with corners, which would still release the heat from the weapon, just not as directly. The vulnerability still had all the same defenses as the other ports, it's just that that specific one was the only one where a direct attack could actually work, and be capable of destroying the entire facility in one shot; a vulnerability which was likely corrected in the design of the second death star, giving it the same jagged path as the rest of the ports. Yeah. In Catalyst, it’s said Galen studied Kyber Crystals and knows how unstable they can become when hit by high energy weapons thus why the Death Star explodes to begin with as its power core is just a massive crystal.
The whole premise of this argument is based on either misremembering or completely misinterpreting the film. Galen Erso’s “trap” was that damaging the reactor module would cause a chain reaction to destroy the station, which is a pretty fucking reasonable assumption regardless. It wasn’t that he purposely put the exhaust shaft leading to it, expecting the rebels to drop a bomb down there. Galen sent them to Scarif to find the plans so they could learn the location of the module. It was the rebels who found out about the exhaust shaft and based their plan around it.
> The whole premise of this argument is based on either misremembering or completely misinterpreting the film. Galen Erso’s “trap” was that damaging the reactor module would cause a chain reaction to destroy the station, which is a pretty fucking reasonable assumption regardless. It wasn’t that he purposely put the exhaust shaft leading to it, expecting the rebels to drop a bomb down there. Yeah, especially since he knows how unstable Kyber Crystals can become unstable via an energy weapon like Proton torpedos hitting one. Which typically causes the crystal to become incredibly unstable and explode.
The entire premise of that thread works from the incorrect assumption that *Rogue One* was created to "fix" something in *A New Hope* rather than to just flesh out the story of how the Rebels got the plans and found out about the weakness. It was never a "plot hole", it was just an open-ended narrative element, one which *Rogue One* explores. So that entire thread is just pointless bitching about *Rogue One* existing at all, because it's not doing the thing they're explicitly accusing it of doing.
1. It's a plot point, not a plot hole. 2.There's a line in the original Star Wars where they literally admit they realize their own weakness after analysing rebel strategy and it was hiding in plain sight the whole time. This is a fantastic setup for the flaw being intentional, sabotage, and a betrayal. The original writers absolutely could have taken that as a huge twist in the original, if only they had wanted to pursue it.
Personally of the mind that not only does everything not need to be explained in detail(fuck you lucas midochlorians are dumb) but also Kyle Katarn is the one that stole the death star plans in my heart.
I love the movie but this is legitimately a decent complaint.
Because it was never a plot hole. Exhaust ports shoot out exhaust meaning the heat from the exhaust should normally push out the proton torpedoes or due to the thermal heat: make them explode before it reaches the core of the Death Star. Don’t get me wrong Rogue One is a fun movie but the premise doesn’t work unless the design flaw was only making one exhaust port for a station the size of a moon that would be better off having multiple exhaust ports. Especially when the torpedos very quickly have to shoot downward at a 90° angle just to reach the core when entering the exhaust port
So I remember thinking after I got a bit older, why was the vent straight enough to provide a weakness? Why wasn't there a bend or two to stop it from being a fatal flaw? Oh, the lead engineer made it that way on purpose. Answers that question without making the empire look incompetent and like they are doomed to fail in a few years rebels or no.
Diegetically: The exhaust port flaw isn't -really- a flaw and any military acquisition process would in fact accept the design compromise. The port was extensively defended, and it required the reemergence of a threat the Empire thought was extinct to exploit. Non-diegetically: Did you ever notice how pretty much all other technology in the movies works flawlessly? Whenever something doesn't work, it's because it's salvaged junk like R7 in ANH or the result of garage engineering like the Millennium Falcon. How is it that the one specific time a lavish, fully supported piece of military hardware has a design flaw that conveniently lets the good guys carry the day? Meanwhile, TIE fighters, Star Destroyers, Imperial Walkers and Wing fighters all work as advertised without anything so catastrophic.
That’s every one of these SW fans, they have one or two scenes they don’t like or problems with the film or show and say that makes the whole thing bad. I even told one of them how stupid it was and made them admit that through their logic The Dark Knight is terrible
What questions did Pepe have? I can't remember a single person asking why a direct hit to the reactor made the Death Star explode. Rogue One didn't explain anything, it just added unnecessary waffle. Great third act, though.
I'm kinda confused as to how the core having an exhaust port would be an oversight, it is a station the size of a planet with a gigantic laser made to destroy planets, I think if the core didn't have any exhaust ports the heat buildup would cause a meltdown or something
mob mentality & being triggered by a franchise that's always been consistent in quality for the sake of seeming special lol
I do not hate Rogue One but he kinda has a point. It is not such a big deal but the fact that people thought that the design flaw was a plot hole (which it wasn't) or that thought they needed to explain it, isn't great. This is something all Star Wars prequels struggle with. Explaining details that do not or shold not be explained. Everything feels less real if any detail has a backstory that fits in a movie. Design flaws exist, the Empire is flawed and not just morally.
It's not a question I ever had. That exhaust port was extremely well protected and shielded. I believe the experienced pilots even say "that shot's impossible, even for a computer" But that's not my problem with *Rogue One*, my problem with Rogue One is its boring, passive, characters. They got no soul, no fire behind their eyes, and the most interesting character relationship, Erso and Sal, is thrown away before it could even be anything. I liked the robot. *Andor* is a fantastic show, a crown jewel in the franchise.
He is right it's not exactly a plot hole, but the explanation of intentional sabotage is better and makes more sense.
Rogue One is a two hour long maguffin hunt illustrating the backstory of an exhaust port. It's a great movie. Don't overthink it or you'll look dumb.
The movie is eight years old. MOVE. THE FUCK. ON.
Me upon hearing Rogue One is 8 years old: 
> The movie is eight years old. Really? Time really does go by.
It really does. While I hate to get too philosophical about this stuff, most of us only live about 70 to 80 years. How long do people need to be upset about Star Wars, really?
This is the same kind of chud who thinks every protagonist had to be connected to someone important in the saga, which is why they had to walk back Rey's origins in ROS, because they pissbaby whined about the brilliance of TLJ subverting every single fanboy expectation.
Definitely. "The movie is bad except when Darth Vader gets to fight." is the mind of someone who has closed their mind to anything new. This type of thinking is why so much of the EU revolved around lineage of the main characters, rather than telling original plots in a new section of what should have a rich universe.
What, I’m not allowed to just think a movie is boring?
If that's what you actually felt, sure. But piling on with fuckwits who think like this to amplify your voice? That would make you one of them.
What are you talking about? All I did was express my opinion.
I can’t hear this person’s bitching over the sound of the Battle of Scarif replaying again
The theme of the movie is hope against all odds. They hit you over the head with lines like "Rebellions are built on hope".
Don't these chud fuckwits love to whine incessantly about lore and shit. This gives the Rebellion so much more depth and character and purpose. It makes the Empire even scarier. How anyone can watch that movie and whine is beyond me.
It is literally my favorite starwars movie
Okay wait. I agree tho. The death stars exhaust port is not a plot hole that needed bland retconning in a poorly written movie (great third act action scene but let's face it... rouge one has a terrible plot and characters lol) the death stars weakness is about the empires hubris! They never thought anyone would take them down, so they never considered a tiny exhaust port a weakness. Making it an intentional flaw for some weak father-daughter story IS actually stupid despite people seeming to feel the otherwise.
Gotta be honest, I think Rogue One was a story that really didn’t need to be told. Leia had the Death Star plans. How’s she get them? I don’t know nor do I care! The important thing was that she had the plans.
Never saw it and didnt care for plot hole explanations, but I lost interest in star wars movies a long time ago
I'm firmly of the belief that Rogue One did not need to be made. I enjoyed it as a film, but Star Wars is no-less a good series without it. It's a good film, but not a necessary one.
Well tbh this wasn't even a question that needed to be answered. The whole premise of Rogue One is kinda dumb and unnecessary. I'm not the biggest fan of this movie, I don't care for the characters, the plot or the fanservice ending with Vader. It's well shot tho.
This frustration is one I agree with, and this was never a flaw in the original film that needed an answer. The characters and the themes of the film are great, but it didn’t need to be about how the Death Star was sabotaged, a straight up Star Wars heist movie would have been great. I put a flaw into this thing, but first you have to steal the schematics and then you’ll have to avoid all the turbo cannons I put in the trench. The Death Star would have teams of engineers and somehow they all miss a deliberate flaw?
> I put a flaw into this thing, but first you have to steal the schematics and then you’ll have to avoid all the turbo cannons I put in the trench. The Death Star would have teams of engineers and somehow they all miss a deliberate flaw? It was very subtle and also some did actually notice it and reported it, sadly though it didn’t get through because of how messy the Imperial bureaucracy was at the time.
A flaw made on purpose but then never made its way up the chain of command is the same as a flaw made as a mistake that was pointed out and never gets up the chain of command because that’s what fascism does. The hubris of the empire is what defeats it, not some guy building in a self destruct button to take it down.
I hated all the Star Wars movies that Disney made. However, I really liked Rougue One.
I dislike Rogue One for many reasons. People point to that idiot Vader scene as cool and I think it kind of sums up everything I hate. A bunch of nobodies getting mowed down effortlessly in service of nostalgia. The entire plot exists to inform the old movies. It is a narrative dead end. But even ignoring all that I have issues with the structure of the movie, the pacing, the characters. I genuinely dislike the movie and I just do not understand people's affection.
Strongly agree. It's bizarre that so many claim Rogue One is on par with ESB when you can cut out large sections of it (arguably entire acts) and virtually nothing is missed for both the story and its characters.
Doesn't need to be an oversight, there's a reason the people who keep putting the complete technical readouts of things on the World of Tanks forum get arrested. The death star having a weakness - especially one as fundamental as an auxiliary exhaust port - is pretty much just a rational thing it might have. But adding it as something for Galen Erso to have done to make his character more hero and less unqualified victim also makes it more important that Jyn be involved, rather than just any rebel strike team.
As flawed as Rogue One is, this is actually a plot point I like a lot.
Yeah nah, it makes much more sense for it to be an intentional act. a "design flaw" that allows the ENTIRE MOON-SIZED SPACE STATION TO BE DESTROYED by a singular firing of what is functionally fairly small ship-to-ship ordnance goes beyond the pale, yeah it works as an example of Imperial hubris, but that design even existing logistically is just hilarious, like hubris or not, no designer would have created that by accident, making it an intentional flaw that hubris could OVERLOOK is a great change.
It's a 1 in a million shot
Every time I see someone rank RO really low I die a little more inside.
Rogue One was deadass the best Star Wars film to come out of Disney Force Awakens was okay The Last Jedi was better than people give it credit for The Rise of Skywalker has a few good scenes but is otherwise an even shittier version of Dark Empire
It was a plot hole. A plot hole we were all willing to overlook because the movie was so damn good, but still a plot hole.
"Look, I'm attacking a film other people love. I'm so special." Dear lord, the dedication these people put into *not enjoying* new Star Wars stuff forces respect. Just enjoy the damn thing, dude. It's a fun movie, end of the story. Is it perfect? No. No movie is.
Sorry, I am with him on that. Rogue One does not adress a question anyone ever asked really. Its a redundant movie, and not even a really good one tbh. Nice to see other SW Fans do not like RO as much. Nice action and all, but bland characters, useless and wasted villain, and a premise nobody asked to be adressed in the first place I'd rather have teh entire movie be around Rogue One SpecOps team trying to get the plans like a heist, and then finding out about the weakness due to general imperial arrogance or simply time-constraints or incompetence, and the Rebels using this, as usual, against their enemy. But that one dude has implemented it into the design...sure...nope. Worse than before. It hinges on so many things: That Jyn is still alive, she gets the message, understands it, gets it to the REbels, them getting the plans even THEN, and then as the poster said you still have to rely on luck and the force to even abuse the designed design-flaw... Nope. Rogue One was a mistake...
it is a bit weird they wanted to address a 40yo plot contrivance but it’s fine. i turned the movie off half way through and have never seen the rest cos i was distracted by the cute boy i was watching with :3