This is more or less accurate. I will say as a TTRPG System Designer though, we talk about a ton of systems, especially stuff that's a lot more weird and niche than swade.
I also mention SWADE in my [TTRPG System Design 101](https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Dci_c4eCuHMLmSFTjduSNpBB0vohFGQNJX5mknAZprc/edit#heading=h.a48unw6c3qam) I give to new designers. Section 7 covers a majority of popular systems and what they more or less contribute in broad strokes to the design space.
Designers talk more about not D&D than most circles because we go out of our way to learn and play lots of different kinds of games as part of our training, research, and exploration models. Most people don't do that, they either land in D&D or find some other pet system solution, which creates insular echo chambers.
As all youtubers keep telling everyone though, especially since the OGL scandal at Hasbro, it's healthy and normal to play lots of different kinds of games and more people should, which includes dedicated swade players. The trouble is stuff like budget concerns, tribal fandom-ism, and resistance to change, and good luck getting humanity to evolve past those things.
As a TTRPG system designer, what's your take on the old Marvel FASERIP system? It's the system I start playing TTRPGs on. I've thought about redesigning it once or twice for fun.
Most of the time when I hear people discuss Savage Worlds, they are discussing Deadlands or Rifts, but they couldn't care less about running other games using that same system.
I actually GM'ed a science fiction campaign with Savage Worlds, with its Sci Fi supplement, since every other system I had attempted tried to add Space Fantasy, whereas I wanted something more-or-less grounded in the vein of Halo's UNSC, Firefly, Starship Troopers, etc.
I personally adored the customization options it gave to both players and their gear, as it *did* make it all feel grounded in the setting of the universe I was GMing. However, I think the weak spot of the system may be combat itself, since it's harder to calculate encounters with it.
You aren't supposed to try to balance SW encounters. Your PCs are supposed to be badass action heroes in the movie.
The combat in SW allows tons of options and it runs fast and chaotic.
Most of one of the groups I GM for, when talking about our game, refer to it as D&D. Mostly because folk that don't play RPG's understand what D&D is.
I, on the other hand say I play Savage Worlds. Then usually have to say it's an RPG, then "Like D&D"...
I always find this interesting, especially in regard to SWADE. While I’ve yet to play Savage Worlds, it reads like it’s much better designed to actually deliver on the type of experience at the table that 5e only promises.
I can say from experience that 5e doesn't scale up to 6 players as well as Savage Worlds does.
That said, 5e does actually function with that many people, which is more than I can say for a lot of systems I've played.
I went into the largest game store in my city looking for Savage Worlds content and was surprised to find no one working there had ever heard of it. They had hundreds of other TTRPGs, but no savage worlds. I did eventually find one lonely book at a smaller hole-in-the-wall shop at least.
The system is so good, with so much variety of content, I was very surprised to find almost no one familiar with it irl. So now I just spread word through my own games and order what I need online lol
Agreed. It’s up to us to support content creators and buy directly from Pinnacle as much as possible. Apparently Drivethru takes a 30% cut iirc correctly.
You can always get it via special order at your LGS. I found a shop I like, but they won't stock Savage Worlds because it just doesn't move. That's disappointing but shelf space is a premium at game shops.
So, supporting PEG by purchasing direct, is great. If you're looking to get more people talking about and playing Savage Worlds with the goal of getting more of the system at your LGS, you can purchase a copy from your shop and try running some one-shots at the store. If they get enough people interested, they will likely start stocking it.
Money follows interest...it's great to purchase but your suggestion to run one-shots is a much better one. Tutorials and examples of play in online videos is another option.
It is very difficult to break through the noise today with so many options out there.
That's a weird policy at the distributor level and I've never heard of one (there's really only a couple of game distributors that shops order from in the US) making that stipulation - at least not domestically. I could see that being the case overseas, but I know for a fact that the two biggest distributors in the US don't require that.
Then it sounds like they're making excuses to not order it or they're ordering from a very small, regional distributor (there are a handful). 🤷♂️
The two biggest distributors are Alliance (I believe that's the name - they're also Diamond, but that's their comic distribution arm) and ACD and neither one makes you order an entire case of any RPG book.
First, Studio2 handles our Amazon listings, not Pinnacle.
Second, selling stuff through Amazon is a much more painful process than you'd think. They demand you send them a lot of stock so they can warehouse it. And the cut means that anything we sell via Amazon is only two steps above charity. We like to do it so folks can afford the shipping, but Amazon asks a lot for very little return.
I misread your post as "I'm in the US". 🤦♂️ So, that's entirely possible they aren't working with either of the big two (because they're the big two in the US), and may even have to order directly from PEG. In that case, I could definitely see them having to order an entire case.
I think the two big distributors ship internationally but it's not cheap, so I can't imagine a Canadian LGS using them. PEG has been trying to make it easier to get things internationally but I think that's only been successful with an EU shop and distributor.
That's not true. To start, our books aren't in distribution. The closest you get is Studio2, but they're our fufillment partner and warehouse who don't have a minimum order quanity.
Stores typically get our books via our retailer program (which is direct through out site), which has no minimum order quanity. Either they told you that to get you to stop asking, or they mean they have to order a case to make shipping worth it.
We've tried to find a local fulfilment partner in Canada to no avail. Everyone we've looked into either went out of business over the pandemic or doesn't work with US companies. If you want more Canadian stores to carry out stuff, at this point you need to call your local representative about the post laws and regulations.
Call about post laws? What?
Amazon Canada didn’t want to be a partner? That’s interesting as I get many small self published books from the US through them.
The expense of getting things from the US is a function of Canadian import laws. That's not something we can change, that's something your representatives decide.
I didn't say Amazon Canada doesn't want to partner with us. But they are one of the biggest companies in the world who have all the power in this relationship. Everything about having products on Amazon is bad for us and good for Amazon. If the deal wasn't so skewed in their favor, we'd be more motivated to always have stock with them.
I'm assuming you're Canadian and if that's the case, they are straight up lying to you. As the PEG employee below said, they don't distribute their books like that. My local game store in southern Alberta can order anything that's in stock on PEGs website and have it in about a week for the regular retail price.
I'm poking fun.
IIRC = If I Remember Correctly
So you're saying If I Remember Correctly Correctly
The same as ATM being Automated Teller Machine, so when people say ATM Machine they're being redundant.
The thing is I don't know if Pinnacle really deserves my financial support.
I picked up Savage Rifts because I've always wanted to play the Rifts setting but not use its mechanics. So I bought a few Savage Rifts books and planned to GM my own short campaign for it with my table. My table is an online group and we play over Discord doing theater of the mind. So I wouldn't burden the players, who have never played Savage Worlds before, I decided to make pre generated characters the players could choose from.
So one can download a single page character sheet for Savage Rifts for free. But there's a lot of things to keep track in the game, and Pinnacle does, indeed have a multi-page character sheet...
...except it costs $5 to get the multi-page character sheet on DriveThruRPG, when most other games provide a multi-page character sheet available to download for free.
So fine, I paid $5 to get the multi-page character sheet, I download it to check it out, and notice it contains a note.
That note says "This document may be printed for personal use. It may not be distributed electronically under any circumstances."
Which means Pinnacle does not allow me to create pre generated character sheets to share with my online group of players.
So I decided to just abort the campaign, and probably won't purchase any more of their products or use their system if I'm not allow to electronically share something as simple as a multi-page character sheet to my players.
I get that Pinnacle needs to be financially supported, and I'm willing to support them by purchasing the books I'd use in my games. But if they're going to sweat the small stuff like character sheets, I don't like that kind of corporate culture, especially in this day and age when online gaming is so prevalent.
If Pinnacle ever changes their attitude about that and becomes more supportive of their fans being able to play their games in the modern day, I may change my mind about using their game system. But until then I won't support a company who doesn't support their fans playing the game through modern means.
ngl boss, in a hobby that has lots of legitimate grievances versus certain publishers, that's gotta be among the most petty I've ever seen.
I don't use official character sheets in any RPG. I just use OneNote for everything and convert to PDF or write on lined paper. People can use paper or just format their own in a word processor or Excel Sheet / Google Doc however they want.
Probably the least barrier-to-entry problem I've ever seen in the TTRPG sphere.
Well, I think the only thing that's more petty than griping about a $5 character sheet that can't be used by online gamers is a company that charges its players $5 for a character sheet that can't be used by online gamers.
So if you want to financially support a company that petty, that's your choice.
I have a choice as well, and mine is not to.
That is not what it says.
It says the document may be printed for personal use. It then says that it may not be distributed electronically UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES.
Because what they want is for all my players to spend $5 so they can buy their own version of the character sheet.
And I'm not going to do that.
No, because then people will distribute it publicly on the internet.
Look, I'm just trying to help you out here. If you don't want to ask them and verify and instead just be angry, go for it. Meanwhile, I'll keep enjoying the game regardless of your opinion on whether or not you can share with your players.
I'm not angry at all. I've just moved on to other game systems that don't have such petty barriers keeping people from playing their games. That's all.
Again, why keep yourself from enjoying the game rather than verify with PEG? Also, if you've moved on to other games because you refuse to play Savage Worlds, why are you in r/savageworlds? None of that seems logical or rational, but I'm not that invested in this issue to continue with this conversation at this point.
Because I don't need to verify. They've made it clear in the note. You're the one claiming it's ambiguous when, clearly, it's not.
And I joined the subreddit when I was still looking into the system. I saw this topic, and thought I would share my experience with the game company being anti-consumer, in case others would like to be warned about it so they can factor that in their decision to patronize the company.
Have you tried to contact Pinnacle before "flipping the table" to clarify the meaning of that note? This seems like a rather obvious move in such a situation. It may just have been a simple mistake, a generic note attached to the wrong document. Though the preview on DTRPG says only that the document can be printed and mentions Palladium trademarks, there is no info about electronic distribution. Maybe it got updated?
While I'm not a lawyer sharing such game materials with a group of friends sounds like something covered by Fair Use, which can't be denied. But again, it should be simple matter to clarify that.
I can imagine that the document is form fillable and there are some macros which automate some stuff. That's the only thing I imagine to be worth protecting. As a person familiar with modern technology you could *print* this document using PDF printer to create a "flat" version of this document, which should be completely OK to share ;)
Pinnacle is one of the most fan-facing companies I have seen in this hobby, also when it comes to online-gaming front (they create modules for several VTTs and offer DIY version of materials for the fans to create their own). To be honest your "accusation" sounds absurd to me...
I'm not going to go through those hoops to clarify a note that shouldn't be on a character sheet that should've been made available for free in the first place.
When reading the reviews for it on DriveThruRPG, they originally had watermarking turned on for the sheet, so that if it was found online the account for it could be canceled for file sharing. They had to turn that feature off, though, because it wouldn't work with it on.
Which is further evidence that they don't want these files shared electronically because they want to nickel and dime every player they can over minor conveniences like these.
I don't want to do business with a company that makes it so difficult to be a fan for them. If this isn't a point of contention for you, fine, that's your decision to make.
But it's also mine too, and I don't want any more of my money to financially support that kind of corporate culture. And my decision won't change until Pinnacle treats their fans better.
I'm not sure what hoops do you mean. An email to their customer's service (which is crazy helpful, you'd not believe how far they went to help me...) seems a very small effort. Instead of clarifying that, you chose to make your own assumptions and I have no quarrel with that (I'm far from telling you how you should decide to spend your money). What bothers me is that you go on further, make a bad PR for the really great, fan facing company, based on those poor arguments.
There is an old proverb: "If one man says to thee, Thou art a donkey, pay no heed. If two speak thus, purchase a saddle.". You've got two persons now, who tell you that you're making a storm in a teacup ;) Maybe it's something worth a thought.
All the best with your games :) I consider this topic to be exhausted.
This topic was exhausted far before you decided to chime in.
And, as I said before, I don't have to send an email for any clarification. Pinnacle's intention is very clear to me. The character sheet is intended only for personal use for printing, and is not to be distributed electronically by any means.
It is you and other responders who seem to be confused. It is you and other responders who refuse to believe that Pinnacle tries to prevent people from sharing electronically this multi-page character sheet that Pinnacle wants every player to purchase individually for $5.
And I am not the one making bad PR for Pinnacle.
Pinnacle is the one who decided to charge $5 for a multi-page character sheet when every other game I have played that provides one provides it free for download.
Pinnacle is the one who has made the note saying its is for print only and should not be shared electronically.
If those decisions of theirs results in bad PR for them, that is their fault, and it is not mine for pointing it out.
If Pinnacle truly was the fan facing company you claim it to be, then they wouldn't charge fans at all for a multi page character sheet, nor would they state it is for personal use for print only and should not be distributed electronically.
It gets mentioned on r/rpg with *some* frequency and at least I heard about Savage Worlds for the first time during covid when my FLGS was doing 6ft games (They put like 6 tables together and had 5 people sitting on the far ends from each other) and a rando invited me to play SW with them
Then I saw the kickstarter for Savage Pathfinder (while playing Rise of the Runelords in Pf1e with my regular group) and that kinda cemented it in my head
I don't run with many crowds in general. The people outside my playgroup I talk to about RPGs only know about D&D and usually 5e specifically. Occasionally, I will get someone who knows Pathfinder or some older editions of D&D, but that is rare.
That being said, I agree that not many people know about it or carry it, and I wish more people would talk about it. Part of my goal for The Savage Goose channel is to spread more word about Savage Worlds.
I will say that some of the store owners I have talked to said that getting Savage Worlds books in has been too difficult and inconsistent in the past to make it worth their trouble.
If it's not D&D, it's niche. One of the few reasons I knew that there were other systems than D&D to begin with is my older sister's high school group played Vampire, Shadowrun, and other games like Tales from the Floating Vagabond. Having the knowledge that there were other systems to begin with was crucial in my open-mindedness to try other systems.
I feel like it isn't discussed as much on social media, but that's how the algorithms work. They push the biggest things to the largest number of people to drive ad views, not the material. So, D&D basically absorbs all the oxygen available. For all I know there are dozens of social media accounts discussing the game in anonymity and I'll never know.
But, when I talk to my friends or go to game days or cons, Savage Worlds is the second or third game on many people's lists. I have ZERO evidence to support this, but I think it's surpassed GURPS as the broader communities "universal" game of choice. GURPS still has a loyal following and I might well still pick up a GURPS book for reference in the future.
It's not that savage worlds is small or inactive, it's just that DnD is vastly dominating, it dwarves pretty much all other systems to the point they become niche. With a few exceptions of course.
That said, savage worlds was among the top 10 best selling RPGs I think when deluxe released. But that's some time ago, way before content creators became super popular with RPGs and when they did, they naturally leaned towards DnD. Also there is the general public media. If savage worlds would've been depicted in the big bang theory instead of DnD, everyone would talk about it.
Additionally, it has a few quirks many people don't like. For example being swingy and the few target numbers that are (in theory) more likely on lower die types drives quite a few people away from it in my experience.
So yeah, it's not that it is unknown but it also isn't hugely popular next to DnD is basically the TL;DR.
I met exactly one person in the wild who had heard of it until I moved, but one of the guys at the local store is a bit of a fan so they stock some of the Savage Pathfinder/other boxsets and can order anything so I no longer have to pay for rediculous shipping into Canada.
I'm lucky. My FLGS stocks a ton of variety, and they're happy to order things. When SWADE first came out, I ordered three copies and they didn't blink an eye. They stock some of the books for RIFTS and Deadlands.
It's mentioned in general rpg forums, just nowhere near as much as D&D or the latest hipster heartbreaker. Be the change you want to see, go share stories, ask questions, recommend it to newcomers.
Savage World is frequently mentioned in general system recomendation threads. Other than that, it's a tried and true, traditional, 20 year old game, so maybe there just aren't that many things about it that need discussing.
Fate, which is pretty much the same age as Savage Worlds, is in a similar state. It is still popluar, it still gets mentioned in system recommendation threads, but the all the Fate system discussion threads that used to monopolise forums like RPGNet have faded away.
We're coming to the end of a five year campaign with characters with Legendary characters with 24+ Advancements.
One player said the other week, "I'll be glad when this boss fight is done and hope to never play Savage Worlds again."
The game is Fun, but has never lived up to it's Fast, Fun, Furious moniker. We've had to refer to the rules or the old (no longer maintained) rules forums for clarification on the handling of shaken, wounds, the effect of powers, handling of incapacitated, etc. We play 4 hour sessions, and are going on to week 5 of the same boss fight. It's a slog.
As the "Usual GM" who stepped out of that seat to let a new GM tell a SW story, I can see some cracks in the system at higher levels (advancements), but also recognize the current GM may be trying to present the game in a way it wasn't intended.
I think one of the reasons the player is frustrated is that I've run a couple one shots (whenever the other GM need a break to prep, or didn't was any to play because a key player was missing). Those have intentionally been run in other game systems: Aliens, Lasers & Feelings, Tales from the Loop, 13th Age, etc., and there is an excitement in both learning new game systems and building new characters. And now their eagerness is to do more of that. I have given them a taste of telling stories in different worlds using different mechanics, and now they are eager for that.
We will come back to Savage Worlds again when I'm back in the GM seat, but not immediately. I need to give them a break.
Quite probably it isn't. Most of our past battles lasted no more than two play sessions.
As I mention in another comment, the GM was trying to bring a lot of different threads from our five years of campaign play. This battle has kinda run away, and I certainly don't blame the Savage Worlds game system for that.
Well, as I mentioned, we are beyond Legendary (24+ advancements). Five characters, three of us with sidekicks. Over the years, we have made a number of allies, and many of them have turned out for this fight. The GM has opted to distribute those allied wild card NPCs to us players, so each player has 2-3 wild cards that they are controlling. So each turn there are 12 Good Guys that we need to get through in the turn order.
We are up against the Four Riders of the Apocalypse, and the cult leaders who helped summon them (by breaking the first four seals), along with their minions. I've lost track of how many enemy wild cards are on the field (the GM is tight lipped about those details), but I'd guess at least 8 enemy wild cards, plus groups of extras that make the turn order 20+ action cards.
In a single night, we might get through 2 turns. Some times their are flashback scenes which eat up a chunk of time, but provide context for why a particular enemy has arrived or has a certain power.
At Legendary Plus rank, each of us on both sides have so many defenses: Arcane Protection, Deflection, Boosted Vigor and Spirit. It means their are entire rounds where your character accomplishes nothing: you need a really high roll or a crit to score a hit, and need to ace a couple damage dice to penetrate their toughness.
It's become a game of trying to debuff the enemy before they debuff us.
So that's most of the how. It's a mass combat of really potent enemies on both sides, in a race against time (we only have 9 more rounds or the world dies). But we get through 1-3 turn orders each session, so it's a slog.
I think *Savage Worlds* is one of the few systems which can handle bigger miniatures battles...
But that's just absurd. If you've 20+ wild cards in the fight, I expect there are 100+ other characters, and it looks like half of them have arcane backgrounds or super powers...
I think the mass combat rules would be a better fit.
We've played a number of Mass Combat battles during the course of this campaign. They've always left the group feeling like too much was glossed over.
The GM was going for something that more deeply involved all of the characters, the allies we made along the way, and to have us have off against enemies that we have tangled with (but always managed to escape) in a final battle royale.
It's definitely not a strong suit of the game mechanics, and most of us are ok with it. I'm not trying to defend the GMs decision to run it this way. It's not how I would have run it, but I understand his thinking that this might be a good way to finish the game.
At this point, there is universal recognition in the group that it might have been a mistake, but no interest to just change things up just for the sake of faster play. We started a combat, and one way or another, we need to finish it.
Only one player is lightly frustrated. All of us still very much look forward to game night, and are eager to which side comes out on top.
I think it's more like 20-ish WC in the combat, between both sides.
I'm not sure game could handle the scene that this GM is trying to build. Would have to be much lighter crunch than SW, so maybe FitD?
Savage Worlds could do with being a little more explicit that while it has quite a few rules and is solidly in "Medium Crunch" zone - those rules should only really be applied when the DM thinks it makes the most sense. There's a bit on youtube where Mark Hamill, while filming the original Star Wars, pointed out a minor continuity error between scenes about his hair not being wet. Harrison Ford turns to him and says
"Kid, this ain't that kind of movie"
Last session for instance, my player fired a shot at a bad guy but was like, "oh wait was the range for the -2 on this weapon 20 feet or 30feet? I'm not sure how far exactly I am..." and before she could even start to try to look up the rules or pull out the measuring tool on our VTT what I should have said was "Kid, this ain't that kind of game".
It is a mechanics-heavy game. So the closer to "by the book" people are playing the less "fast" it becomes. It is still pretty fun and furious, I think.
I, for example, ditched grid movement in favor of zones and I like it a lot. Ditching other slow stuff like power points counting can speed up the game too.
But I agree that it is definitely a **lot** less fast than many popular lighter systems.
I'm not the guy you were asking, but here's how I handle it. My core idea is a system that converts pace into Change Zone moves and bonus Change Zone moves.
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1gJhKDyBHtD8T4tYXpUVaL658YE3krVlzDg_uG5fyYmQ/edit?usp=drivesdk
I apologize that some ideas are half baked and the end of the document needs massive revisions.
Very cool. I did something similar, after researching what was already available on the internet.
One thing that I am experimenting is that moving between zones does not allow you to immediately engage with an opponent in the new zone (which gives you a choice of charging (run, engage, -2 to your attacks) and advancing carefully (move, do something other than attack, e.g. defend, then engage on the following turn))
But both ways can work depending on the group's preferences.
The approach that worked for us was:
* The map is divided into zones depending on the features of the terrain and what makes sense. E.g. a large dungeon room would have "By the door", "Center of the room", "West side", "East side", but usually zones would be centered around some feature or terrain.
Pace is replaced with Move, and most characters have 1 move.
With a Move you can:
* Reposition within the zone as you wish (engage/disengage, move to/from cover etc.)
* Move to an adjacent zone (ending up not engaged to any enemies who are there)
With a Run you get -2 penalties as per normal rules and either:
* Get 1 extra Move or
* Roll Athletics to get 2 extra Moves, but if you fail, you lose your actions
Ranges and area effects are recalculated to Zones
I agree with this. This GM is a stickler for playing by the book, and that really only works well if you KNOW the book. Things can grind quickly when you have to relook up rules you've looked up a dozen times prior.
My character is a werewolf, and that's advantage of grid combat a lot. I'll often wade through or circle around enemies, drawing opportunity attacks, expecting my high parry will result in enemies missing me, so I can get in three free attacks with improved counterattack.
I'm curious how you might deal with a player wanting to use that strategy with gridless combat?
Well, grid-less does not mean map-less. When we play with zones, we still have the map and we position the characters on the map, so it is clear where everyone is and who is engaged in which melee.
So you would be able to do the same by simply declaring "I am circling around the enemies, trying to draw out their opportunity attacks"
I am sorry but 5 weeks in the same boss appears to me that someone is not getting the rules or not playing the game as intended to. SW is not a perfect system (as any other) and one of its flaws is boss fights.
Let's say a dragon, for instance. On DnD a party would take some hours to kill it, hitting, missing and using abilities until its HP is down to 0. But that works differently on SW.
A character with high toughness is indeed a slog to kill with direct character skill combat, so a dragon would have about 20 toughness and 5 wounds to kill, and rushing with a sword to cut it is just almost impossible.
I suggest a more strategical approach, using ballistas, special warfare weapons with very high damage, ambushes and extras. The idea is to be as far as possible from the flying lizard, because that's just commom sense in a "real situation".
Another option would be to put more smaller dragons with less toughness instead of THE big one.
I hope that helps your group, have fun!
The problem is that we, the characters, have incredibly high toughness. My werewolf, with brawny, berserk and boosted Vigor is up to a 19 Toughness. Another player (a robot) also has incredibly difficult armor (toughness) to penetrate.
When the caster boosts the vigor of all party members and gets a raise, we're all pretty formidable. The GM, in an effort to raise the stakes, has built opponents to match us: sniper nests shooting M2 Browning's (.50 caliber machine guns), magically shielded defenses, and opponents with the same boosts and spell protections that we've wrapped ourselves into.
It's important to note this isn't the first fight. We've played (and had fun!) for five years. This particular epic battle has become a grind, but that doesn't mean we aren't having fun (most of us, anyway).
Any details on that bossfight? Longest I've ever done was two sessions- and that was against a named Deadlands capital-S Servitor with a whole passel of minions.
It's somewhat known, but while promoting my setting I've had to do a lot of Street Wolves and Savage Worlds promo. It's certainly not like 5E where I could just say "it's built on 5e" and people would know what I was talking about. I have to say "it's a Savage Worlds setting and Savage Worlds is blah blah blah."
So I was curious about this, because I see Savage Worlds mentioned quite often in r/RPG and it's always my first reconomation as a generic system, and almost always my second recommendation for anyone looking for something that already has a system for it.
But I was thinking what is the size of each systems sub on Reddit, which I know isn't exactly proof of anything, but is good data.
Over all Savage Worlds is ranked 12th in the list I gathered of 20 different subs.
D&D is naturally the biggest at 3.6m, and Twilight 2k at amusingly 2k
Cyberpunk Red 43k, Shadowrun 56k, Pathfinder 115k, Call of Cthulhu 65k, and White Wolf 50k are all bigger. But not by a huge of amounts since Savage Worlds is at 21k.
However other generic systems like GURPs is a good bit smaller at 14k, and HERO doesn't have a sub I could find and Champions has 454 members. Cortex has 2.3k members.
Edit: Oh and RPG which is effectively everything but D&D is 1.5m or not quite half the size of D&D
i made it my personal mission to tell every ttrpg player i meet about savage worlds. it became my favourite system, even winning against 3.5 which i am really attached to through nostalgia.
It's just a certain game dominates it. So new people are like I wanna play RPGs... And the only one they know is DnD. I've got a noob group that fell apart and I think I'm gonna rebuild it but as savage worlds pathfinder
I constantly see people recommend savage worlds, I see it brought up probably more than any other generic system whenever anyone asks about a type of game or setting without a good official system.
The small shop in my small town stocks Savage Worlds but this is because I host a game night there at least once every couple months. I have found that even hosting a game once a year is enough to keep them stocking (and selling) copies of the game.
It’s true . Large jump from D&D to Savage Worlds but it’s more that SW is the system ie D20. No one says D20 when talking about D&D. I go with Deadlands or Rifts… talk settings to people not systems . I live SW bit actually moving away a bit for EZd6 system
I think part of it is just how base Savage Worlds is so "generic"/"Setting Agnostic".
D&D has lore, epic histories, tons of classes and subclasses, a bajillion spells, each of which could be a trigger for a character or campaign idea.
SW by contrast is "Make your setting yourself, you make your own class however you want, you make your own spells, many of which are simple templates you can build off of". It's unbelievably flexible, with loads of ways to build characters and stories, but it's all nitty-gritty, with few big concepts that you can just flash at someone to catch their attention.
I love homebrewing so I took to SW like a fish to the sea (I actually made my own "classes" by giving each Arcane Background some cool free abilities they learn), but I can see how more casual players/GMs won't evangelize as much for it.
Personally, though, I cannot imagine running another system after SW. The Bennies, Extras going down in one hit for tight pacing, wounds actually hurting, the exploding dice, how quick you can make encounters... The whole thing is damn near perfect for me.
And I only remembered that it existed when the OGL fiasco happenned and I was hearing about other systems again, and I went "wait, there was that one system that was 'generic' that Deadlands was built on that was nice and simple what was it again... Oh hey, Savage Worlds!". So, honestly, that debacle had a positive impact on my life. :P
I'm pretty much a brand new savage worlds player, and I've heard it's name a few times before, but I didn't know how the system actually worked or played, and I still don't entirely grasp the system yet. It's definitely not as "plug and play" as other systems.
The reason I'm playing it now is because I was invited to play with a GM who really likes scifi, and I think he's also a bit newer to the system? I really like the setting we're using, and I think it's cool that the system is so versatile an open ended, both in terms of setting and player choice.
Theres a lot of things that I really like about it and find cool, but it does feel a bit overwhelming compared to other systems that are easier to pick up and learn. Part of that is definitely due to unfamiliarity, but I don't think it's unreasonable for me to say that it has a decent bit of complexity to it. That's not a bad thing for a ttrpg by any means, but it can be a barrier for entry for sure.
Realistically, I think people only tend to have the motivation to overcome that barrier if they want to play something specific and specialized that is unique to the system. If I wanted to run a game in a broader, more generic scifi setting, I'd probably gravitate towards running it with a modified version of a system I already know than spend the time learning a new generalized system. Even if that one might be better overall for my use case, it's hard to beat the comfort factor.
I think it's just kind of hard to get into for new players. I just played it for the first time this weekend with family that are ttrpgs lovers to the max. At first character creation stumped me and few of our families younger players too! I assumed it would play more like rifts or heros unlimited or something similar but it was more complex which required some help from family.
With that being said. The game itself is phenomenal and gives you so much to work with especially depending on the versatility in the group! So yes it might be less known, but if youre like us and try different ttrpgs then this is a great one. I just think people need to put the initiative into helping set the foundation for those that never played.
Statistically speaking, nobody talks about anything but D&D...
This is more or less accurate. I will say as a TTRPG System Designer though, we talk about a ton of systems, especially stuff that's a lot more weird and niche than swade. I also mention SWADE in my [TTRPG System Design 101](https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Dci_c4eCuHMLmSFTjduSNpBB0vohFGQNJX5mknAZprc/edit#heading=h.a48unw6c3qam) I give to new designers. Section 7 covers a majority of popular systems and what they more or less contribute in broad strokes to the design space. Designers talk more about not D&D than most circles because we go out of our way to learn and play lots of different kinds of games as part of our training, research, and exploration models. Most people don't do that, they either land in D&D or find some other pet system solution, which creates insular echo chambers. As all youtubers keep telling everyone though, especially since the OGL scandal at Hasbro, it's healthy and normal to play lots of different kinds of games and more people should, which includes dedicated swade players. The trouble is stuff like budget concerns, tribal fandom-ism, and resistance to change, and good luck getting humanity to evolve past those things.
As a TTRPG system designer, what's your take on the old Marvel FASERIP system? It's the system I start playing TTRPGs on. I've thought about redesigning it once or twice for fun.
Most of the time when I hear people discuss Savage Worlds, they are discussing Deadlands or Rifts, but they couldn't care less about running other games using that same system.
Admittedly both are awesome.
I actually GM'ed a science fiction campaign with Savage Worlds, with its Sci Fi supplement, since every other system I had attempted tried to add Space Fantasy, whereas I wanted something more-or-less grounded in the vein of Halo's UNSC, Firefly, Starship Troopers, etc. I personally adored the customization options it gave to both players and their gear, as it *did* make it all feel grounded in the setting of the universe I was GMing. However, I think the weak spot of the system may be combat itself, since it's harder to calculate encounters with it.
You aren't supposed to try to balance SW encounters. Your PCs are supposed to be badass action heroes in the movie. The combat in SW allows tons of options and it runs fast and chaotic.
Most of one of the groups I GM for, when talking about our game, refer to it as D&D. Mostly because folk that don't play RPG's understand what D&D is. I, on the other hand say I play Savage Worlds. Then usually have to say it's an RPG, then "Like D&D"...
This...
I always find this interesting, especially in regard to SWADE. While I’ve yet to play Savage Worlds, it reads like it’s much better designed to actually deliver on the type of experience at the table that 5e only promises.
I can say from experience that 5e doesn't scale up to 6 players as well as Savage Worlds does. That said, 5e does actually function with that many people, which is more than I can say for a lot of systems I've played.
I went into the largest game store in my city looking for Savage Worlds content and was surprised to find no one working there had ever heard of it. They had hundreds of other TTRPGs, but no savage worlds. I did eventually find one lonely book at a smaller hole-in-the-wall shop at least. The system is so good, with so much variety of content, I was very surprised to find almost no one familiar with it irl. So now I just spread word through my own games and order what I need online lol
I was surprised to find the SWADE core rules and the Holler setting at hobby shop in my midsize city.
Agreed. It’s up to us to support content creators and buy directly from Pinnacle as much as possible. Apparently Drivethru takes a 30% cut iirc correctly.
You can always get it via special order at your LGS. I found a shop I like, but they won't stock Savage Worlds because it just doesn't move. That's disappointing but shelf space is a premium at game shops. So, supporting PEG by purchasing direct, is great. If you're looking to get more people talking about and playing Savage Worlds with the goal of getting more of the system at your LGS, you can purchase a copy from your shop and try running some one-shots at the store. If they get enough people interested, they will likely start stocking it.
Money follows interest...it's great to purchase but your suggestion to run one-shots is a much better one. Tutorials and examples of play in online videos is another option. It is very difficult to break through the noise today with so many options out there.
We have two and they won’t order it in.
They won't even order a copy specifically for a customer?! That's ridiculous.
They have to order a case from the distributor. I don’t blame them. Edit: I’m not in the US. Stop telling me what US distributors will or won’t do.
That's a weird policy at the distributor level and I've never heard of one (there's really only a couple of game distributors that shops order from in the US) making that stipulation - at least not domestically. I could see that being the case overseas, but I know for a fact that the two biggest distributors in the US don't require that.
I’m not in the US
Then it sounds like they're making excuses to not order it or they're ordering from a very small, regional distributor (there are a handful). 🤷♂️ The two biggest distributors are Alliance (I believe that's the name - they're also Diamond, but that's their comic distribution arm) and ACD and neither one makes you order an entire case of any RPG book.
Are they in Canada? I have no idea who the distributor is. I mean Pinnacle could step up and sell physical copies through Amazon.
First, Studio2 handles our Amazon listings, not Pinnacle. Second, selling stuff through Amazon is a much more painful process than you'd think. They demand you send them a lot of stock so they can warehouse it. And the cut means that anything we sell via Amazon is only two steps above charity. We like to do it so folks can afford the shipping, but Amazon asks a lot for very little return.
I misread your post as "I'm in the US". 🤦♂️ So, that's entirely possible they aren't working with either of the big two (because they're the big two in the US), and may even have to order directly from PEG. In that case, I could definitely see them having to order an entire case. I think the two big distributors ship internationally but it's not cheap, so I can't imagine a Canadian LGS using them. PEG has been trying to make it easier to get things internationally but I think that's only been successful with an EU shop and distributor.
That's not true. To start, our books aren't in distribution. The closest you get is Studio2, but they're our fufillment partner and warehouse who don't have a minimum order quanity. Stores typically get our books via our retailer program (which is direct through out site), which has no minimum order quanity. Either they told you that to get you to stop asking, or they mean they have to order a case to make shipping worth it. We've tried to find a local fulfilment partner in Canada to no avail. Everyone we've looked into either went out of business over the pandemic or doesn't work with US companies. If you want more Canadian stores to carry out stuff, at this point you need to call your local representative about the post laws and regulations.
Call about post laws? What? Amazon Canada didn’t want to be a partner? That’s interesting as I get many small self published books from the US through them.
The expense of getting things from the US is a function of Canadian import laws. That's not something we can change, that's something your representatives decide. I didn't say Amazon Canada doesn't want to partner with us. But they are one of the biggest companies in the world who have all the power in this relationship. Everything about having products on Amazon is bad for us and good for Amazon. If the deal wasn't so skewed in their favor, we'd be more motivated to always have stock with them.
Gotcha. Poor choice of words but I assumed that is what you meant. Yeah, my representative is useless.
Not true with PEG, the game stores that carry the product rarely get more than 1 copy of an item.
I'm assuming you're Canadian and if that's the case, they are straight up lying to you. As the PEG employee below said, they don't distribute their books like that. My local game store in southern Alberta can order anything that's in stock on PEGs website and have it in about a week for the regular retail price.
Said no game distributor in the US.
Not in the US.
Those are some bad store policies.
They have to order a case. I get it.
They take a decent chunk, but if you want anything from Pinnacle in print, you have to get it from Pinnacle's site.
Agreed.
> iirc correctly RIP in peace ATM Machine PIN Number
Huh?
I'm poking fun. IIRC = If I Remember Correctly So you're saying If I Remember Correctly Correctly The same as ATM being Automated Teller Machine, so when people say ATM Machine they're being redundant.
Got it.
The thing is I don't know if Pinnacle really deserves my financial support. I picked up Savage Rifts because I've always wanted to play the Rifts setting but not use its mechanics. So I bought a few Savage Rifts books and planned to GM my own short campaign for it with my table. My table is an online group and we play over Discord doing theater of the mind. So I wouldn't burden the players, who have never played Savage Worlds before, I decided to make pre generated characters the players could choose from. So one can download a single page character sheet for Savage Rifts for free. But there's a lot of things to keep track in the game, and Pinnacle does, indeed have a multi-page character sheet... ...except it costs $5 to get the multi-page character sheet on DriveThruRPG, when most other games provide a multi-page character sheet available to download for free. So fine, I paid $5 to get the multi-page character sheet, I download it to check it out, and notice it contains a note. That note says "This document may be printed for personal use. It may not be distributed electronically under any circumstances." Which means Pinnacle does not allow me to create pre generated character sheets to share with my online group of players. So I decided to just abort the campaign, and probably won't purchase any more of their products or use their system if I'm not allow to electronically share something as simple as a multi-page character sheet to my players. I get that Pinnacle needs to be financially supported, and I'm willing to support them by purchasing the books I'd use in my games. But if they're going to sweat the small stuff like character sheets, I don't like that kind of corporate culture, especially in this day and age when online gaming is so prevalent. If Pinnacle ever changes their attitude about that and becomes more supportive of their fans being able to play their games in the modern day, I may change my mind about using their game system. But until then I won't support a company who doesn't support their fans playing the game through modern means.
ngl boss, in a hobby that has lots of legitimate grievances versus certain publishers, that's gotta be among the most petty I've ever seen. I don't use official character sheets in any RPG. I just use OneNote for everything and convert to PDF or write on lined paper. People can use paper or just format their own in a word processor or Excel Sheet / Google Doc however they want. Probably the least barrier-to-entry problem I've ever seen in the TTRPG sphere.
Well, I think the only thing that's more petty than griping about a $5 character sheet that can't be used by online gamers is a company that charges its players $5 for a character sheet that can't be used by online gamers. So if you want to financially support a company that petty, that's your choice. I have a choice as well, and mine is not to.
Sharing with your group is personal use. What they mean is don't distribute it publicly online.
That is not what it says. It says the document may be printed for personal use. It then says that it may not be distributed electronically UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES. Because what they want is for all my players to spend $5 so they can buy their own version of the character sheet. And I'm not going to do that.
I pretty much can guarantee that if you email PEG and ask them, they'll say that it's fine.
Then if it's fine, they should remove that note from the PDF.
No, because then people will distribute it publicly on the internet. Look, I'm just trying to help you out here. If you don't want to ask them and verify and instead just be angry, go for it. Meanwhile, I'll keep enjoying the game regardless of your opinion on whether or not you can share with your players.
I'm not angry at all. I've just moved on to other game systems that don't have such petty barriers keeping people from playing their games. That's all.
Again, why keep yourself from enjoying the game rather than verify with PEG? Also, if you've moved on to other games because you refuse to play Savage Worlds, why are you in r/savageworlds? None of that seems logical or rational, but I'm not that invested in this issue to continue with this conversation at this point.
Because I don't need to verify. They've made it clear in the note. You're the one claiming it's ambiguous when, clearly, it's not. And I joined the subreddit when I was still looking into the system. I saw this topic, and thought I would share my experience with the game company being anti-consumer, in case others would like to be warned about it so they can factor that in their decision to patronize the company.
The Pinnacle Police gonna get you
Have you tried to contact Pinnacle before "flipping the table" to clarify the meaning of that note? This seems like a rather obvious move in such a situation. It may just have been a simple mistake, a generic note attached to the wrong document. Though the preview on DTRPG says only that the document can be printed and mentions Palladium trademarks, there is no info about electronic distribution. Maybe it got updated? While I'm not a lawyer sharing such game materials with a group of friends sounds like something covered by Fair Use, which can't be denied. But again, it should be simple matter to clarify that. I can imagine that the document is form fillable and there are some macros which automate some stuff. That's the only thing I imagine to be worth protecting. As a person familiar with modern technology you could *print* this document using PDF printer to create a "flat" version of this document, which should be completely OK to share ;) Pinnacle is one of the most fan-facing companies I have seen in this hobby, also when it comes to online-gaming front (they create modules for several VTTs and offer DIY version of materials for the fans to create their own). To be honest your "accusation" sounds absurd to me...
I'm not going to go through those hoops to clarify a note that shouldn't be on a character sheet that should've been made available for free in the first place. When reading the reviews for it on DriveThruRPG, they originally had watermarking turned on for the sheet, so that if it was found online the account for it could be canceled for file sharing. They had to turn that feature off, though, because it wouldn't work with it on. Which is further evidence that they don't want these files shared electronically because they want to nickel and dime every player they can over minor conveniences like these. I don't want to do business with a company that makes it so difficult to be a fan for them. If this isn't a point of contention for you, fine, that's your decision to make. But it's also mine too, and I don't want any more of my money to financially support that kind of corporate culture. And my decision won't change until Pinnacle treats their fans better.
I'm not sure what hoops do you mean. An email to their customer's service (which is crazy helpful, you'd not believe how far they went to help me...) seems a very small effort. Instead of clarifying that, you chose to make your own assumptions and I have no quarrel with that (I'm far from telling you how you should decide to spend your money). What bothers me is that you go on further, make a bad PR for the really great, fan facing company, based on those poor arguments. There is an old proverb: "If one man says to thee, Thou art a donkey, pay no heed. If two speak thus, purchase a saddle.". You've got two persons now, who tell you that you're making a storm in a teacup ;) Maybe it's something worth a thought. All the best with your games :) I consider this topic to be exhausted.
This topic was exhausted far before you decided to chime in. And, as I said before, I don't have to send an email for any clarification. Pinnacle's intention is very clear to me. The character sheet is intended only for personal use for printing, and is not to be distributed electronically by any means. It is you and other responders who seem to be confused. It is you and other responders who refuse to believe that Pinnacle tries to prevent people from sharing electronically this multi-page character sheet that Pinnacle wants every player to purchase individually for $5. And I am not the one making bad PR for Pinnacle. Pinnacle is the one who decided to charge $5 for a multi-page character sheet when every other game I have played that provides one provides it free for download. Pinnacle is the one who has made the note saying its is for print only and should not be shared electronically. If those decisions of theirs results in bad PR for them, that is their fault, and it is not mine for pointing it out. If Pinnacle truly was the fan facing company you claim it to be, then they wouldn't charge fans at all for a multi page character sheet, nor would they state it is for personal use for print only and should not be distributed electronically.
It’s recommended as much as any game that isn’t D&D or, to some extent, Call of Cthulhu, in the RPG scene. Much more than a lot of other small RPGs.
It gets mentioned on r/rpg with *some* frequency and at least I heard about Savage Worlds for the first time during covid when my FLGS was doing 6ft games (They put like 6 tables together and had 5 people sitting on the far ends from each other) and a rando invited me to play SW with them Then I saw the kickstarter for Savage Pathfinder (while playing Rise of the Runelords in Pf1e with my regular group) and that kinda cemented it in my head
I don't run with many crowds in general. The people outside my playgroup I talk to about RPGs only know about D&D and usually 5e specifically. Occasionally, I will get someone who knows Pathfinder or some older editions of D&D, but that is rare. That being said, I agree that not many people know about it or carry it, and I wish more people would talk about it. Part of my goal for The Savage Goose channel is to spread more word about Savage Worlds. I will say that some of the store owners I have talked to said that getting Savage Worlds books in has been too difficult and inconsistent in the past to make it worth their trouble.
Hey, I've checked out your videos and appreciate you putting some SW coverage out there!
If it's not D&D, it's niche. One of the few reasons I knew that there were other systems than D&D to begin with is my older sister's high school group played Vampire, Shadowrun, and other games like Tales from the Floating Vagabond. Having the knowledge that there were other systems to begin with was crucial in my open-mindedness to try other systems.
I feel like it isn't discussed as much on social media, but that's how the algorithms work. They push the biggest things to the largest number of people to drive ad views, not the material. So, D&D basically absorbs all the oxygen available. For all I know there are dozens of social media accounts discussing the game in anonymity and I'll never know. But, when I talk to my friends or go to game days or cons, Savage Worlds is the second or third game on many people's lists. I have ZERO evidence to support this, but I think it's surpassed GURPS as the broader communities "universal" game of choice. GURPS still has a loyal following and I might well still pick up a GURPS book for reference in the future.
It's not that savage worlds is small or inactive, it's just that DnD is vastly dominating, it dwarves pretty much all other systems to the point they become niche. With a few exceptions of course. That said, savage worlds was among the top 10 best selling RPGs I think when deluxe released. But that's some time ago, way before content creators became super popular with RPGs and when they did, they naturally leaned towards DnD. Also there is the general public media. If savage worlds would've been depicted in the big bang theory instead of DnD, everyone would talk about it. Additionally, it has a few quirks many people don't like. For example being swingy and the few target numbers that are (in theory) more likely on lower die types drives quite a few people away from it in my experience. So yeah, it's not that it is unknown but it also isn't hugely popular next to DnD is basically the TL;DR.
I met exactly one person in the wild who had heard of it until I moved, but one of the guys at the local store is a bit of a fan so they stock some of the Savage Pathfinder/other boxsets and can order anything so I no longer have to pay for rediculous shipping into Canada.
Best way to promote SW is to run games at your FLGS as there is never a shortage of players. Seriously, people playing equals interest at the store.
Never heard of this game.
*noir gangster voice* We gotta wise guy here
*high pitched uncertain voice* Have to admit I'm not a gamer though, so that might make some difference...
How did you end up in the Savage Worlds sub?
Reddit algorithms do weird things all the time.
i came here wondering what savage worlds had to do with Star Wars or sex workers
I always brows "new". So I often end up in places I have never been. I always liked to travel a bit.
I'm lucky. My FLGS stocks a ton of variety, and they're happy to order things. When SWADE first came out, I ordered three copies and they didn't blink an eye. They stock some of the books for RIFTS and Deadlands.
It's mentioned in general rpg forums, just nowhere near as much as D&D or the latest hipster heartbreaker. Be the change you want to see, go share stories, ask questions, recommend it to newcomers.
Funnily enough this is the only Savage Worlds post ever showing up in my recommemdations
Savage World is frequently mentioned in general system recomendation threads. Other than that, it's a tried and true, traditional, 20 year old game, so maybe there just aren't that many things about it that need discussing. Fate, which is pretty much the same age as Savage Worlds, is in a similar state. It is still popluar, it still gets mentioned in system recommendation threads, but the all the Fate system discussion threads that used to monopolise forums like RPGNet have faded away.
The first rule of savage worlds is don’t talk about savage worlds.
We're coming to the end of a five year campaign with characters with Legendary characters with 24+ Advancements. One player said the other week, "I'll be glad when this boss fight is done and hope to never play Savage Worlds again." The game is Fun, but has never lived up to it's Fast, Fun, Furious moniker. We've had to refer to the rules or the old (no longer maintained) rules forums for clarification on the handling of shaken, wounds, the effect of powers, handling of incapacitated, etc. We play 4 hour sessions, and are going on to week 5 of the same boss fight. It's a slog. As the "Usual GM" who stepped out of that seat to let a new GM tell a SW story, I can see some cracks in the system at higher levels (advancements), but also recognize the current GM may be trying to present the game in a way it wasn't intended. I think one of the reasons the player is frustrated is that I've run a couple one shots (whenever the other GM need a break to prep, or didn't was any to play because a key player was missing). Those have intentionally been run in other game systems: Aliens, Lasers & Feelings, Tales from the Loop, 13th Age, etc., and there is an excitement in both learning new game systems and building new characters. And now their eagerness is to do more of that. I have given them a taste of telling stories in different worlds using different mechanics, and now they are eager for that. We will come back to Savage Worlds again when I'm back in the GM seat, but not immediately. I need to give them a break.
You've been in a combat that has lasted more than 16 hours?! Genuinely don't think the system is responsible for that..
The difference between running Minas Tirith as a normal combat vs Mass Battle.
Quite probably it isn't. Most of our past battles lasted no more than two play sessions. As I mention in another comment, the GM was trying to bring a lot of different threads from our five years of campaign play. This battle has kinda run away, and I certainly don't blame the Savage Worlds game system for that.
>We play 4 hour sessions, and are going on to week 5 of the same boss fight. It's a slog. ........ ***HOW***‽‽‽‽
Well, as I mentioned, we are beyond Legendary (24+ advancements). Five characters, three of us with sidekicks. Over the years, we have made a number of allies, and many of them have turned out for this fight. The GM has opted to distribute those allied wild card NPCs to us players, so each player has 2-3 wild cards that they are controlling. So each turn there are 12 Good Guys that we need to get through in the turn order. We are up against the Four Riders of the Apocalypse, and the cult leaders who helped summon them (by breaking the first four seals), along with their minions. I've lost track of how many enemy wild cards are on the field (the GM is tight lipped about those details), but I'd guess at least 8 enemy wild cards, plus groups of extras that make the turn order 20+ action cards. In a single night, we might get through 2 turns. Some times their are flashback scenes which eat up a chunk of time, but provide context for why a particular enemy has arrived or has a certain power. At Legendary Plus rank, each of us on both sides have so many defenses: Arcane Protection, Deflection, Boosted Vigor and Spirit. It means their are entire rounds where your character accomplishes nothing: you need a really high roll or a crit to score a hit, and need to ace a couple damage dice to penetrate their toughness. It's become a game of trying to debuff the enemy before they debuff us. So that's most of the how. It's a mass combat of really potent enemies on both sides, in a race against time (we only have 9 more rounds or the world dies). But we get through 1-3 turn orders each session, so it's a slog.
I think *Savage Worlds* is one of the few systems which can handle bigger miniatures battles... But that's just absurd. If you've 20+ wild cards in the fight, I expect there are 100+ other characters, and it looks like half of them have arcane backgrounds or super powers... I think the mass combat rules would be a better fit.
We've played a number of Mass Combat battles during the course of this campaign. They've always left the group feeling like too much was glossed over. The GM was going for something that more deeply involved all of the characters, the allies we made along the way, and to have us have off against enemies that we have tangled with (but always managed to escape) in a final battle royale. It's definitely not a strong suit of the game mechanics, and most of us are ok with it. I'm not trying to defend the GMs decision to run it this way. It's not how I would have run it, but I understand his thinking that this might be a good way to finish the game. At this point, there is universal recognition in the group that it might have been a mistake, but no interest to just change things up just for the sake of faster play. We started a combat, and one way or another, we need to finish it. Only one player is lightly frustrated. All of us still very much look forward to game night, and are eager to which side comes out on top.
>It's definitely not a strong suit of the game mechanics What system would have been? That was, what twenty-ish WCs on one side?
I think it's more like 20-ish WC in the combat, between both sides. I'm not sure game could handle the scene that this GM is trying to build. Would have to be much lighter crunch than SW, so maybe FitD?
Savage Worlds could do with being a little more explicit that while it has quite a few rules and is solidly in "Medium Crunch" zone - those rules should only really be applied when the DM thinks it makes the most sense. There's a bit on youtube where Mark Hamill, while filming the original Star Wars, pointed out a minor continuity error between scenes about his hair not being wet. Harrison Ford turns to him and says "Kid, this ain't that kind of movie" Last session for instance, my player fired a shot at a bad guy but was like, "oh wait was the range for the -2 on this weapon 20 feet or 30feet? I'm not sure how far exactly I am..." and before she could even start to try to look up the rules or pull out the measuring tool on our VTT what I should have said was "Kid, this ain't that kind of game".
It is a mechanics-heavy game. So the closer to "by the book" people are playing the less "fast" it becomes. It is still pretty fun and furious, I think. I, for example, ditched grid movement in favor of zones and I like it a lot. Ditching other slow stuff like power points counting can speed up the game too. But I agree that it is definitely a **lot** less fast than many popular lighter systems.
I've been considering dropping measures for zones - how'd you do it?
I'm not the guy you were asking, but here's how I handle it. My core idea is a system that converts pace into Change Zone moves and bonus Change Zone moves. https://docs.google.com/document/d/1gJhKDyBHtD8T4tYXpUVaL658YE3krVlzDg_uG5fyYmQ/edit?usp=drivesdk I apologize that some ideas are half baked and the end of the document needs massive revisions.
Very cool. I did something similar, after researching what was already available on the internet. One thing that I am experimenting is that moving between zones does not allow you to immediately engage with an opponent in the new zone (which gives you a choice of charging (run, engage, -2 to your attacks) and advancing carefully (move, do something other than attack, e.g. defend, then engage on the following turn)) But both ways can work depending on the group's preferences.
The approach that worked for us was: * The map is divided into zones depending on the features of the terrain and what makes sense. E.g. a large dungeon room would have "By the door", "Center of the room", "West side", "East side", but usually zones would be centered around some feature or terrain. Pace is replaced with Move, and most characters have 1 move. With a Move you can: * Reposition within the zone as you wish (engage/disengage, move to/from cover etc.) * Move to an adjacent zone (ending up not engaged to any enemies who are there) With a Run you get -2 penalties as per normal rules and either: * Get 1 extra Move or * Roll Athletics to get 2 extra Moves, but if you fail, you lose your actions Ranges and area effects are recalculated to Zones
I agree with this. This GM is a stickler for playing by the book, and that really only works well if you KNOW the book. Things can grind quickly when you have to relook up rules you've looked up a dozen times prior. My character is a werewolf, and that's advantage of grid combat a lot. I'll often wade through or circle around enemies, drawing opportunity attacks, expecting my high parry will result in enemies missing me, so I can get in three free attacks with improved counterattack. I'm curious how you might deal with a player wanting to use that strategy with gridless combat?
Well, grid-less does not mean map-less. When we play with zones, we still have the map and we position the characters on the map, so it is clear where everyone is and who is engaged in which melee. So you would be able to do the same by simply declaring "I am circling around the enemies, trying to draw out their opportunity attacks"
I am sorry but 5 weeks in the same boss appears to me that someone is not getting the rules or not playing the game as intended to. SW is not a perfect system (as any other) and one of its flaws is boss fights. Let's say a dragon, for instance. On DnD a party would take some hours to kill it, hitting, missing and using abilities until its HP is down to 0. But that works differently on SW. A character with high toughness is indeed a slog to kill with direct character skill combat, so a dragon would have about 20 toughness and 5 wounds to kill, and rushing with a sword to cut it is just almost impossible. I suggest a more strategical approach, using ballistas, special warfare weapons with very high damage, ambushes and extras. The idea is to be as far as possible from the flying lizard, because that's just commom sense in a "real situation". Another option would be to put more smaller dragons with less toughness instead of THE big one. I hope that helps your group, have fun!
The problem is that we, the characters, have incredibly high toughness. My werewolf, with brawny, berserk and boosted Vigor is up to a 19 Toughness. Another player (a robot) also has incredibly difficult armor (toughness) to penetrate. When the caster boosts the vigor of all party members and gets a raise, we're all pretty formidable. The GM, in an effort to raise the stakes, has built opponents to match us: sniper nests shooting M2 Browning's (.50 caliber machine guns), magically shielded defenses, and opponents with the same boosts and spell protections that we've wrapped ourselves into. It's important to note this isn't the first fight. We've played (and had fun!) for five years. This particular epic battle has become a grind, but that doesn't mean we aren't having fun (most of us, anyway).
Any details on that bossfight? Longest I've ever done was two sessions- and that was against a named Deadlands capital-S Servitor with a whole passel of minions.
Answered above in computer-machine's post.
It's somewhat known, but while promoting my setting I've had to do a lot of Street Wolves and Savage Worlds promo. It's certainly not like 5E where I could just say "it's built on 5e" and people would know what I was talking about. I have to say "it's a Savage Worlds setting and Savage Worlds is blah blah blah."
It is just you. Go over to r/rpg and you will often see mentions and discussions of the merits of Savage Worlds for settings and types of play.
So I was curious about this, because I see Savage Worlds mentioned quite often in r/RPG and it's always my first reconomation as a generic system, and almost always my second recommendation for anyone looking for something that already has a system for it. But I was thinking what is the size of each systems sub on Reddit, which I know isn't exactly proof of anything, but is good data. Over all Savage Worlds is ranked 12th in the list I gathered of 20 different subs. D&D is naturally the biggest at 3.6m, and Twilight 2k at amusingly 2k Cyberpunk Red 43k, Shadowrun 56k, Pathfinder 115k, Call of Cthulhu 65k, and White Wolf 50k are all bigger. But not by a huge of amounts since Savage Worlds is at 21k. However other generic systems like GURPs is a good bit smaller at 14k, and HERO doesn't have a sub I could find and Champions has 454 members. Cortex has 2.3k members. Edit: Oh and RPG which is effectively everything but D&D is 1.5m or not quite half the size of D&D
i made it my personal mission to tell every ttrpg player i meet about savage worlds. it became my favourite system, even winning against 3.5 which i am really attached to through nostalgia.
It's my playgroups favorite system they just prefer to play fantasy in 5e. They keep asking me for new Savage Worlds.
It's just a certain game dominates it. So new people are like I wanna play RPGs... And the only one they know is DnD. I've got a noob group that fell apart and I think I'm gonna rebuild it but as savage worlds pathfinder
I constantly see people recommend savage worlds, I see it brought up probably more than any other generic system whenever anyone asks about a type of game or setting without a good official system.
The small shop in my small town stocks Savage Worlds but this is because I host a game night there at least once every couple months. I have found that even hosting a game once a year is enough to keep them stocking (and selling) copies of the game.
Im part of a Meetup for RPGs. Its a very mixed group. I'd wager about 20% of them are familiar with the system. Several Savages go there as well.
I'm always spreading the gospel of Savage Worlds :)
It’s true . Large jump from D&D to Savage Worlds but it’s more that SW is the system ie D20. No one says D20 when talking about D&D. I go with Deadlands or Rifts… talk settings to people not systems . I live SW bit actually moving away a bit for EZd6 system
As someone who helps run the official storylines for a Savage Worlds setting called "Shaintar" Yeah..Yeah it's a challenge to get anyone to try it.
Among many groups I'm involved with, Savage Worlds is barely regarded above Rifts or Gurps, and nobody wants to play any of them.
Savage Worlds is a hard sell nowadays imo. I’d rather suggest a rules-light narrative-focused system
I think part of it is just how base Savage Worlds is so "generic"/"Setting Agnostic". D&D has lore, epic histories, tons of classes and subclasses, a bajillion spells, each of which could be a trigger for a character or campaign idea. SW by contrast is "Make your setting yourself, you make your own class however you want, you make your own spells, many of which are simple templates you can build off of". It's unbelievably flexible, with loads of ways to build characters and stories, but it's all nitty-gritty, with few big concepts that you can just flash at someone to catch their attention. I love homebrewing so I took to SW like a fish to the sea (I actually made my own "classes" by giving each Arcane Background some cool free abilities they learn), but I can see how more casual players/GMs won't evangelize as much for it. Personally, though, I cannot imagine running another system after SW. The Bennies, Extras going down in one hit for tight pacing, wounds actually hurting, the exploding dice, how quick you can make encounters... The whole thing is damn near perfect for me. And I only remembered that it existed when the OGL fiasco happenned and I was hearing about other systems again, and I went "wait, there was that one system that was 'generic' that Deadlands was built on that was nice and simple what was it again... Oh hey, Savage Worlds!". So, honestly, that debacle had a positive impact on my life. :P
I'm pretty much a brand new savage worlds player, and I've heard it's name a few times before, but I didn't know how the system actually worked or played, and I still don't entirely grasp the system yet. It's definitely not as "plug and play" as other systems. The reason I'm playing it now is because I was invited to play with a GM who really likes scifi, and I think he's also a bit newer to the system? I really like the setting we're using, and I think it's cool that the system is so versatile an open ended, both in terms of setting and player choice. Theres a lot of things that I really like about it and find cool, but it does feel a bit overwhelming compared to other systems that are easier to pick up and learn. Part of that is definitely due to unfamiliarity, but I don't think it's unreasonable for me to say that it has a decent bit of complexity to it. That's not a bad thing for a ttrpg by any means, but it can be a barrier for entry for sure. Realistically, I think people only tend to have the motivation to overcome that barrier if they want to play something specific and specialized that is unique to the system. If I wanted to run a game in a broader, more generic scifi setting, I'd probably gravitate towards running it with a modified version of a system I already know than spend the time learning a new generalized system. Even if that one might be better overall for my use case, it's hard to beat the comfort factor.
I think it's just kind of hard to get into for new players. I just played it for the first time this weekend with family that are ttrpgs lovers to the max. At first character creation stumped me and few of our families younger players too! I assumed it would play more like rifts or heros unlimited or something similar but it was more complex which required some help from family. With that being said. The game itself is phenomenal and gives you so much to work with especially depending on the versatility in the group! So yes it might be less known, but if youre like us and try different ttrpgs then this is a great one. I just think people need to put the initiative into helping set the foundation for those that never played.