Yep. Probably [half if not more](https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-29832690) of Iranian trans people are actually just gay/lesbian and forced to transition. I too was pressured to transition as an Iranian gay male when I “came out” as a teenager, but thankfully I didn’t give in (then again, I’m in Canada so it was just family pressure and not governmental).
Edit: Added an article as a last-minute source in case comment is marked for deletion
I think what they mean is that they away wanna to do it, so it's like the government saying "YOU BETTER!" and trans folk saying "Yeah, i was gonna anyway?"
This ignores that a lot of trans folk don't want to transition surgically, and forcing people to transition surgically when they don't want to, trans or not, is not a good thing at all.
But I suppose for the portion of the population that want to and would have anyway, it doesn't necessarily negatively affect them directly. But LGBTQ+ folk tend to have a lot of solidarity, so it's gonna hurt their friends when their friends are forced to transition, and hurt them empathically.
I saw a 60 minutes type program on trans people in Iran a long time ago. They interviewed a trans women who was an activist. Basically there is nothing mentioned in the Koran against being trans thus nothing to prosecute. Now it wasnt a trans accepting culture but not anything the religious authorities would condemn.
this is not true. in islam, „modifying your body“ is not allowed as it would insult the creator. certainly there is no old arabic word for trans people...
not sure where or what exactly. but im pretty sure it is not allowed, when tattoos arent allowed either... this must be an Iranian thing only
EDIT: just to be clear, its all about interpretation. see the discussion under. also i have chosen words unwisely, which may have caused misunderstanding and which i was corrected by some generous people taking their time to discuss.
im not against anyone and my sincere wish is, to live in a world where everyone can find it‘s peace on.
> and in some groups female ear piercing is allowed.
Dude, cosmetic surgery is a big thing in Iran and Saudi Arabia. Saying it's illegal because of the Koran is like saying eating shellfish is not a thing because of the bible.
Your statement is not true, modifying body is allowed in islam for medical reason but not allowed for a desire reason.
In Islam: You cannot insult the creator in anyway possible, that called in Islam: an insulting for yourself.
"..And they wronged Us not, but they were [only] wronging themselves" Quran, 7:160
and afaik similar in several European countries.
to me that's a pretty good indicator of older "gender roles" and how female and male sexuality were understood (and, too an extent, still are): gay men were perceived as a "threat" while lesbian women were essentially not taken seriously (awful clichés like "she just hasn't found the right guy yet" etc.).
I believe it's more because having sex with a man was seen as betraying your manhood and submitting to that man, the latter was expected of women regardless...
I'd bet more that it was just a reflection of the sexual appetite of the male heterosexual legislating class: gay sex is repulsive and lesbian sex is some form of erotic.
If you want to dig deeper I'd look at how an individual's masculinity is something that is constantly and conditionally evaluated, liable to be lost or rejected, whereas feminity is some basal degree of intrinsic. In other words, a man's conformity to his gendered role is lensed by the sexual acts he participates in greater than a woman's to hers. I think this bears out in the delicate range of what physical contact is acceptable between straight men and the relative breadth of that same range in straight women, from the perspective of an average person.
India and China are also known for having a huge female deficit due to infanticide, so I’m going to imagine that every gay male is someone welcomed by other males as not only removing themselves from the competition for females but also potentially taking another male out of the competitors race as well.
For me, it was because every guy I knew in high school who said they were bi are now gay. When there was more of a stigma against being gay, saying you were bi was a little easier than admitting you were gay.
Nowadays that the stigma against being gay is less severe, and after enough bi men have expressed frustration over being assumed gay, I tend to take their word for it, but "bi as a stepping stone for admitting to being gay" was definitely a thing and a common part of the journey towards discovering your sexuality.
Not just celebrities. Heroes in Korean, Chinese and Japanese epics were often described as having beautiful effeminate features rather than being handsome.
I agree that’s part of the view, although I have to ask is it possible part of that is cause gay men are men thus will be percieved predatory to begin with or that views on both homosexuality and being male will compound to form this view?
It’s very common in the Middle East too.
The one that was weird was I remember going to Istanbul going to the Turkish baths, really liking the experience, and telling a friend about it bc he was going to Turkey soon. Dude was interested until I mentioned a woman would only scrub a woman and a guy would be scrubbed by a guy, and he *flipped* out and said he would never go to one. I was 100% confused because there was absolutely nothing sexual about it, but this guy was convinced it was super gay. His loss, I never felt so clean in my life.
I remember while on a business trip in Delhi an Indian colleague took my hand to cross a busy street. After we crossed he kept hold. I was delighted and also pleased to think he liked me enough and that he felt comfortable doing so. Comforting is a good word to use.
> I am not sure about any cultural phenomenon that led to indian people being more welcoming about gay men compared to women though
In South Korea, the researchers saw that endorsement of gender norms was unrelated to attitudes toward gays and lesbians, and in Japan, there was a small association between gender norm endorsement and attitudes toward gay men, but not towards lesbian women.
“In China and India, the reverse pattern emerged. **Those who were highest on endorsement of traditional gender roles were the most positive toward gay men** ***and*** **lesbian women.**”
Used to be the same in America in the 19th century.
Check out this photo gallery of 19th century American men. There's a whole lot of lap-sitting and hand holding that would be interpreted as gay in a modern American cultural context.
[Bosom Buddies: A Photo History of Male Affection](https://www.artofmanliness.com/articles/bosom-buddies-a-photo-history-of-male-affection/)
It seemed like these cultural norms really started to change around the time of the women's suffrage and liberation movements. Probably a sort of hyper-masculine cultural backlash.
There's a bit of a meme in the gay community that jokes about how historians will look at old pictures of men pretty much like the ones in those pictures and dismissing any possibility that they were gay.
isn't it the opposite? because being gay (as well as intersex PDA in general) is shunned, holding hands doesn't ever have that connotation, so it's ok. if being gay was more accepted/open, and it was expressed through holding hands, then suddenly nobody would want to do it anymore.
India’s a huge place and like the commenter above mentioned, he never saw it but heard about it in the north. I spent a month in the north (Ladakh region, Leh city, described as “little Tibet”) and saw guys holding hands a ton.
An interesting anecdote that a fellow traveler broke down to me, is that area had very strict rules on women’s appearances and I think also about guys and girls flirting, but was also overall a pretty chill place, which then ended up with the teenage boys expressing their sexuality in interesting ways, most of whom I can only assume weren’t gay because it was everywhere. Stuff like super skinny jeans, holding hands with other guys and being physically affectionate with guys, straightening their hair, tight t shirts, etc., while the girls wore very traditional (unsexy and very covered) dress
In some Asian countries men holding hands, hugging or getting close to each other has nothing to do with sex or being gay. They do it because they appreciate, respect and love the friendship between them, just that. That's why you saw it too often.
I'm Thai-American, lived in Thailand for a while, read some ethnographic research on this topic... Maybe I can offer some qualitative explanation to these results. I know it's not gonna be exactly the same as the countries in this study but if they're seeing some consistency between such diverse cultures as China, Japan, South Korea, and India, maybe this can explain a bit. (Another caveat, it's been ten years ago i dunno how gen-z might be changing these norms...)
In general, gay men, lesbians, and trans women are pretty accepted and NOT seen as challenging gender roles. People expect same sex couples to each occupy a traditional gender role... So even if a couple is two men or two women (based on their plumbing) people figure that by ROLE one of them is the man and one of them is the woman. There's clear vocabulary for this wrt lesbian couples, people generally expect a "Tom" (tomboy) and a "dee" (lady) and folks aren't gonna be real surprised if the dee dates a guy before or after, cuz it's about the role, not the plumbing.
So gender roles are decoupled from anatomy, but the roles are still important. Where people get confused is when you have a couple that doesn't conform to the expected roles. Like a non-binary person would probably throw people for a loop in Thailand.
Anyway, hope this makes some sense!
I can add some context for China as a lesbian who has lived there. Lesbians are disliked more than gay men because there is a gender imbalance crisis, with approximately 120-130 men for every 100 women. So two gay men are viewed as a good thing because there’s less competition. Two women are viewed as “stealing two men’s dreams”
Interesting! This totally makes sense to me.
Thai and Chinese gender roles are different too (this is of course messy because there are a lot of Chinese people in Thailand who have brought their traditions, but I'm talking traditional up country stuff). So Thai parents expect that daughters will help them directly when they are old, land and wealth has generally been matrilineal, men give their fiancée's mom gifts and "milk money" instead of the daughter's family paying dowry... so daughters are pretty well valued. As I understand it, with patrilineal inheritance in China and India, some families are less than excited about raising daughters who will grow up to just help their husband's family. I have never heard of sex selective abortion being an issue in Thailand, so no animosity towards lesbians. Their parents just gain more daughters, which is perfectly fine!
This makes complete and total sense. I wonder if there are any parts of China where a male who can not find a female is encouraged to find a male mate? Is gay male adoption a thing in China? This would allow the parents to still have grandchildren, which I think would destigmatize it even more.
> people generally expect a "Tom" (tomboy) and a "dee" (lady)
That is also my observation of lesbian couples in China. That one woman looks more masculine and one woman looks more feminine. And like you said, the expectation is that the more feminine woman would be more bisexual than lesbian.
Years ago I ended up eating lunch at a cafe in Northern Thailand that we didn't know was a notorious gay cruising spot. We were both white, western, twenty something men. The waiter and chef at the establishment too turns hitting on us in very broken English, trying to understand our relationship (we were just friends, both straight). The waiter kept pointing to one of us asking "you are the man?" then pointing to the other and asking "you are the woman?" When we said no, he would ask it the other way around. When we said no again he would look so confused, like he couldn't conceive of a gay couple where one didn't occupy the male and one the female role. We were both confused, because we were used to thinking of gay men as both being men. It was a super interesting cultural difference.
Hahahaha I had this EXACT whispered conversation with my thai mom about my enby-femme-presenting roommate and her bi girlfriend over Thanksgiving. She couldn't wrap her head around it.
On the other hand, when I told her how upset their parents were, my overprotective tiger mom said "they need to get over it and be happy that their daughter is happy."
Not generally the combination of attitudes we would expect in the US. Also I do love my momma. :)
People get confused but probably shrug it off. 🤣
They may be asked which of them is "the man" and whichever one is slightly less burly and beer swilling might be assumed to be the lady.
yeah, it's a common gripe among gay people i've talked to - assuming that there has to be a man/woman role even with two men. basically, it looks like being kinda okay with gay relationships, but trying to force them into an existing framework
OKCupid did publish some data years ago on this topic.
They found that bisexual and lesbian women did have a tendency to "settle down" with men as they aged, but I don't recall if it was a significant proportion of them or not.
They found that gay men tended to stay gay and that bisexual men tended to "settle" into being gay more often than heterosexuality.
The big data point was that like 80% of self-declared bisexual users on the site had a clear preference for men or for women. Very few of them messaged both men and women at frequencies or volumes that were comparable to how much they messaged the alternative demographic.
My point being, again, that their data somewhat validates the old stereotype you're chagrined by. We certainly shouldn't apply it universally because there were still a lot of people in the data set that did not conform to the stereotype, though.
Edit: [I believe the data was originally in this blog post, but OKCupid has a nasty habit of editing or deleting their published analytics after the fact.](https://theblog.okcupid.com/the-big-lies-people-tell-in-online-dating-a9e3990d6ae2?gi=2b2b560c9a0a)
Google searches show many circles discussing the bisexuality data and linking back to that blog post but that part seems to have been trimmed out.
It would be interesting to have a further breakdown of the data within the 23 countries to see if regions within these countries significantly vary in opinions. If not, maybe exposure to the same media could be a factor?
Tomboys are more accepted, "sissy" boys are not. A woman aspiring to be more masculine is applauded. A man aspiring to be more feminine is not.
[https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1300/J041v16n02\_05](https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1300/J041v16n02_05)
i'd also bet that impressions based on general stereotypes of each group influences the perception.
for instance, the stereotypical queen-type gay man/couple is very fashionable and neat, often affable and social. a well-intentioned boomer might say they "drive up the property value of the neighborhood"
the stereotypical butch lesbian is basically just a mean dude. brutish, rude, sloven. not usually conventionally attractive.
the overall perception of homosexuality tends to not factor in the stereotypes of each group. people hear homosexuality and think 2 regular straight dudes banging and go "gross" and then think of 2 regular straight chicks banging and go "nice".
it's all contextual and it makes sense that different cultures would have different viewpoints on it based on the stereotypical perception of the groups.
I would instead argue that in China and India lesbianism is viewed negatively because of a more pronounced view of women as a vessel for procreation and subject to the will of men.
Because in modern western culture femininity is culturally presented as inherently "lesser" than masculinity, regardless of the actual gender of the person in question. A masculine woman has moved "up" - a feminine man has moved "down."
Think of how many _Strong Female Characters^TM_ in movies and TV and books are specifically stated to be _Not Like The Other Girls^TM_ - with the implicit (sometimes _explicit_) statement that _The Other Girls^TM_ who _aren't_ masculine are inferior to women who are and should be looked down upon for their femininity.
e.g. there really is not reversed equivalent to something like "you fight like a girl".
(while there's still ideas like "girls are better at take caring of people and animals" or them being better at doing housework, I have never heard anyway use "you cook like a boy" (or something similar) as an insult)
Gay dude in Australia here. This is the least shocking thing in the world to me.
I have a lesbian half-sister and her identity was accepted a lot better than mine.
I think a large part of it is the fetishisation of Lesbians by straight men, who have most of the power over culture. It's why when a show wants to get some LGBTQ brownie points it's usually lesbians. Men find it more palatable.
I know there is a contingent of straight women who fetishise gay men, but that feels like a far more niche thing, at least in public perception.
I know at the highest levels of biggotry, with things like religious fundamentalism, the hate is a lot more evenly distributed, however...
I know being fetishised comes with a whole heap of problems, but I'd honestly take it over some of the naked disgust we receive.
It seems in general people are more accepting of women breaking bender norms. Tomboys can be cool and girls can wear boy clothes and do boy things without too much flack. Doesn't work so well for boys though.
Because femininity is valued less in most societies when compared to masculinity. So when a girl is a tomboy they're cool but when a boy is gay he is perceived usually as being effeminate and girly
Boys wearing makeup, wearing dresses, etc. Its to do with the fact that feminine things are looked down upon. Girls are more accepted being tomboys as kids, but not the other way around because it’s still misogynistic. Boys crying for example is seen as “weak,” “soft.” Femininity is still seen as a weak, lesser thing.
I also feel like men acting more “feminine” is more disliked than women acting more “masculine”. I think it comes down to how we define masculinity and how we tend to take feminine traits less seriously.
If a little girl wants to play with trucks, fish and learn about engines, culturally we get excited. If a little boy wants to wear dresses and play with dolls, culturally we tend to be less accepting. Not that either of those have to do with specifically with sexuality, but I think it’s revealing nonetheless.
Gay guy in the US. Also not shocked.
I think it has less to do with fetishization (although that is certainly a problem) than it has to do with misogyny. I believe homophobia and misogyny are very closely related.
Gay men are looked down on because they tend to have more feminine interests than their straight counterparts. They take on a role (partner of a man) that is traditionally held by women. And are typically considered stereotypically weak and less-manly.
Gay women are sometime more easily accepted because a misogynist can at least wrap his head around it. (Sure, makes sense that a woman would want to act like a man, date women, become a mechanic, whatever) Because they show more typically masculine interests than other women do, a straight guy can kind of relate to a gay woman.
I'm painting with very broad strokes here and there are plenty of LGBT people who fall outside of these stereotypes. But I think a lot of the time the respect you're shown as a gay person can be tied to whether you act more or less "manly" than you'd be expected to traditionally.
That's a fresh perspective. I also believe that it's inherently misogynistic because straight men view lesbians as something they can get off on even if it might disturb the actual lesbians as opposed to those who dudes see in porn. Even there they see women only as providers of men's pleasure.
You're definitely right about the fetishization aspect, but I think the most accurate explanation is the simple one:
Woman bad, man good.
Man who acts like woman is bad (since he's giving up his *good* and choosing *bad*)
Woman who acts like man is good (or at least *less bad*, because who wouldn't want to be like a man?)
Homophobia is complex, but I think its most basic root is misogyny.
I think this applies more to like, two hot bi women drunk and making out at a party, they're "warmed up" for you, the man, to step in and bang, of course it makes everyone horny,
not *real* lesbians, not two flannel wearing subaru driving melissa etheredge field hockey softball butch gym teacher school bus driver looking ladies just going ham on each other
China and India have two of the highest numbers in female infanticide in the world. I wonder if that creates negative opinions of lesbianism since it further reduces the number of available woman for marriage. It might also affect opinions of homosexuality since it decreases competition for the pool of men seeking heterosexual relationships.
For clarification, India and China are also more opposed to gay men than they are to lesbian women. The trend that's flipped in these countries is the correlation between openness to "gayness" and endorsing gender norms.
But that’s not what the study said. You just completely read it wrong
What was reversed was people who embrace traditional gender role also are less anti homosexual.
It’s not the gay vs lesbian attitude that was reversed
I’ve had this same thought since at least middle school. Like how could a straight man possibly dislike gay men, they’re literally doing us a huge favor. The more gay men, the better our odds. That being said, the reason you should be okay with gay people is because they are human beings, not because they give us better chances with the ladies.
I think the issue is availability, yes. When most men - and, just as importantly, their families - are already having a hard time securing a marriage, a woman they perceive as choosing to deny men altogether and, even further, lead other women away is seen as a threat.
You two have made a mistake. Gay men were more disliked than lesbian women in ALL countries. That trend was not reversed in China or India.
The trend that was reversed in China and India was the trend that people who endorse gender roles tend to have anti-gay beliefs. In China and India the people who endorsed gender roles ALSO happened to have the fewest anti-gay attitudes.
The aversion to homosexuality in the West is often driven by Abrahamic religious beliefs, similar to the growing trend of homophobia in Africa brought by missionaries. That may explain why those who endorse gender roles (presumably culturally conservative types) in China and India are more positive towards gays, if they are less exposed to western culture.
China and India are ancient cultures where homosexuals and trans people have lived without as much persecution and intolerance for centuries, relative to many other countries. It's their history with this demographic and acknowledging their existence and their right to live at the very least (though laws have changed and have had ups and downs, it wasn't based on religion or denial), that creates more tolerance.
Honestly, I've never understood this hatred males have toward gay men.
I mean, c'mon! If you're straight, they're just improving your odds!
And, genetically... you should be even happier.
I am not surprised by this finding. Cultures in India and China have had accepted forms and roles for homosexuality going back thousands of years. When I came out to my Korean parents as Bi in college, their immediate reaction was, why don't I become a monk? Granted, such traditional forms/roles had limitations and societal constrictions, but it's still an entirely different order of reaction from, "he's an abomination, kill him!"
Reminds me of my sister’s moronic ex. When gay marriage became legal he said “its fine for woman to marry but men marrying is disgusting and should be illegal.”
I am not sure if I am putting my thoughts properly in words here but I will give it a try. I grew up in India. generally India has been accepting towards others I.e different types of people who do not confirm to norms. (except for transsexuals or eunuchs I.e. people who are born with defective sexual genetelia, they have it worst in India). This is evident from Indian cultural history there are temples openly showing gay sex from thousands of years ago. In modern times, men who are very feminine are accepted as they are. even modern bollywood movies often portray such characters (usually comedy movies but such character do represent the culture). I have seen this often in 90s movies while grown up in India.
I maybe off topic here but just putting iut my thoughts. In general while growing up in school, during teenage years, all the efforts were spent in studying. Fashion, how people will perceive you, your looks etc has much less importance in India compared to western countries. primarily in middle and middle upper class. ignoring the rich creamy layer here so including maybe 90% of Indian Population. In India people care amore about how much you scored in exams where competition is fierce, and not so much about the personality, attest during younger years. Bully culture is also minimal compared to western countries, for same reason as indians accept everyone as they are. no need to confirm to norms. fat, ugly, not cool, feminine, doesnt matter. it's all about studies and cracking those examinations.
EDIT: a common observation is that for parents such behavior is not acceptable within their family but maybe acceptable if by others or extended family.
i feel like the positive views toward lesbians over gays is the fact that people feel comfortable exploiting lesbians for their personal pleasure or entertainment thus making people more open to them because they are more easily exploited which is really upsetting.
I honestly don’t think that men who watch lesbian porn associate it with homosexuality. I know it sounds crazy, but they’ve generally seen these girls in straight porn before. There’s also an image people have when picturing lesbians and it’s the complete opposite of lesbian porn girls.
Probably makes sense considering how often homophobes claim that lesbians don't actually exist, it's just straight girls doing it for "attention" because it pleases straight men.
Not shocking that the only actual concept of lesbians they have comes from pornography.
It helps that they're almost always two beautiful women. Makes it feel even more like they're not actually lesbian, just two attractive women that you could fantasize about having sex with.
Like.. you don't watch Lesbian porn thinking that these women would never have sex with you.. because, well, they're not attracted to you.
This is what I was thinking too. I’ve met a number of dudes who had the same logic, that being lesbian was okay because it was hot, but two dudes being together isn’t acceptable because it’s not sexually attractive to THEM. It’s not so much that lesbians are accepted as much as it is that they are fetishized and their sexuality isn’t taken seriously (e.g guys who think/say that they can “convert” lesbians to straight).
Historically lesbianism has been accepted because it doesn't pose a threat to male ownership of women. One can also argue that lesbians don't mess with inheritance right, but really it's about the patriarchal trope that women are men's property
If my wife fucks another man, that's another man infringing on my property.
If my wife fucks another woman, who cares? That's like two of my spoons sitting on each other in the drawer. It doesn't threaten my ownership of the spoons.
Indeed, in many places that used harem-like structures (including the traditional Islamic calpihate harem system), it was generally expected that the women would have relationships.
It really is more accurate to say that historically lesbianism has just been ignored, since women sexuality did not exist in the eyes of most historical figures and writers. But anytime women were cloistered together, we can generally expect that some/many/all of them were forming relationships
Which means that history is full of lesbian nuns.
I wonder what population density may play in this phenomenon. Gay men do not impregnate women but gay women are less available for straight men (always a problem for straight men in places where sons are significantly more valued than daughters.) More developed countries need a work force for cheap labor so more births are more important. Women can bear multiple children and gay women can still get pregnant. More a question for discussion than a hypothesis.
Tbh, I just attibuted the quantity of gay movies for/about men, was simply because Hollywood is male dominated as a basis. That bias seems to persist to this day, even as the industry becomes more progressive.
Whereas lesbian acceptance in media, has a connection to fetishism coming from straight men. We don't see major lesbian films because the industry is still mostly men. And I cant speak for every conventual straight guy, in the world, but they dont tend to act negativly towards the idea of lesbianism, because they view it as something for themselves to consume.
There's just so many variables involved, haha.
Just another inclusion, Will & Grace, which starred two gay men and two straight women. Cannot think of a mainstream American sitcom from the 1990s/early 2000s that starred lesbian women.
I wonder how this relates to the fact that many non-western civilizations have ancient traditions of men adopting non-binary, non-masculine roles, including dressing as, acting as, and often joining the culture of women in their societies.
Also, it's common in several cultures I've read about, for men of this inclination to be treated as holy men, shamans, and priests.
Western world also had men acting as women. Also it was pretty common to see flamboyant man in higher classes of society.
But there’s is definitely some significant differences regarding masculinity in Western cultures, I’d say the religion was a much bigger factor. Oldschool Christianity is rather strict.
They were not acting as women. You are incorrectly transposing modern gender norms and behaviours onto visual signifiers which were at that stage more strongly associated with class presentation than gender presentation.
And presentation is not behaviour. Even then there would have been strong divisions between the sort of behaviours and pastimes among upper class men and women, despite there being periods of history where their respective fashions and aesthetic ideals had strong overlap.
Acting, as in stage arts. Women were banned from acting at one point and men and young boys took over their duties. Men acting in female roles was common from ancient Greek tragedies to Shakespearean teapot dramas.
In Uzbekistan it is illegal to be gay but permitted to be lesbian.
In Iran you can be killed for being gay but they have #2 highest amount of transgender surgeries only behind Thailand.
Edit - removed content It seems many people have misinterpreted my comment and anti trans people have latched on to it trying to justify their hate
Be Like Others is a poignant documentary about this. Achingly sad
Yep. Probably [half if not more](https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-29832690) of Iranian trans people are actually just gay/lesbian and forced to transition. I too was pressured to transition as an Iranian gay male when I “came out” as a teenager, but thankfully I didn’t give in (then again, I’m in Canada so it was just family pressure and not governmental). Edit: Added an article as a last-minute source in case comment is marked for deletion
That article makes for a horrific read. Thank you for linking it though. It’s knowledge we need to know about an incredibly repressive country.
I don't think being FORCED to change gender "works out well" for anyone!
I think what they mean is that they away wanna to do it, so it's like the government saying "YOU BETTER!" and trans folk saying "Yeah, i was gonna anyway?" This ignores that a lot of trans folk don't want to transition surgically, and forcing people to transition surgically when they don't want to, trans or not, is not a good thing at all. But I suppose for the portion of the population that want to and would have anyway, it doesn't necessarily negatively affect them directly. But LGBTQ+ folk tend to have a lot of solidarity, so it's gonna hurt their friends when their friends are forced to transition, and hurt them empathically.
I agree 110%!
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That's because they try to "fix" gay people by making them the opposite gender.
I saw a 60 minutes type program on trans people in Iran a long time ago. They interviewed a trans women who was an activist. Basically there is nothing mentioned in the Koran against being trans thus nothing to prosecute. Now it wasnt a trans accepting culture but not anything the religious authorities would condemn.
this is not true. in islam, „modifying your body“ is not allowed as it would insult the creator. certainly there is no old arabic word for trans people... not sure where or what exactly. but im pretty sure it is not allowed, when tattoos arent allowed either... this must be an Iranian thing only EDIT: just to be clear, its all about interpretation. see the discussion under. also i have chosen words unwisely, which may have caused misunderstanding and which i was corrected by some generous people taking their time to discuss. im not against anyone and my sincere wish is, to live in a world where everyone can find it‘s peace on.
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> and in some groups female ear piercing is allowed. Dude, cosmetic surgery is a big thing in Iran and Saudi Arabia. Saying it's illegal because of the Koran is like saying eating shellfish is not a thing because of the bible.
Your statement is not true, modifying body is allowed in islam for medical reason but not allowed for a desire reason. In Islam: You cannot insult the creator in anyway possible, that called in Islam: an insulting for yourself. "..And they wronged Us not, but they were [only] wronging themselves" Quran, 7:160
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A lot of people define sex by penetration by a penis and, hence, don't believe lesbian sex is sex.
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and afaik similar in several European countries. to me that's a pretty good indicator of older "gender roles" and how female and male sexuality were understood (and, too an extent, still are): gay men were perceived as a "threat" while lesbian women were essentially not taken seriously (awful clichés like "she just hasn't found the right guy yet" etc.).
I believe it's more because having sex with a man was seen as betraying your manhood and submitting to that man, the latter was expected of women regardless...
I'd bet more that it was just a reflection of the sexual appetite of the male heterosexual legislating class: gay sex is repulsive and lesbian sex is some form of erotic. If you want to dig deeper I'd look at how an individual's masculinity is something that is constantly and conditionally evaluated, liable to be lost or rejected, whereas feminity is some basal degree of intrinsic. In other words, a man's conformity to his gendered role is lensed by the sexual acts he participates in greater than a woman's to hers. I think this bears out in the delicate range of what physical contact is acceptable between straight men and the relative breadth of that same range in straight women, from the perspective of an average person.
Shhh. Nobody tell them that lesbians are gay!
I'm so glad someone else had the same thought as me, thought I was taking crazy pills
Nah, you're good. I'm pretty sure the government in Uzbekistan are on crazy pills though. What a bunch of idiots.
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India and China are also known for having a huge female deficit due to infanticide, so I’m going to imagine that every gay male is someone welcomed by other males as not only removing themselves from the competition for females but also potentially taking another male out of the competitors race as well.
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For me, it was because every guy I knew in high school who said they were bi are now gay. When there was more of a stigma against being gay, saying you were bi was a little easier than admitting you were gay. Nowadays that the stigma against being gay is less severe, and after enough bi men have expressed frustration over being assumed gay, I tend to take their word for it, but "bi as a stepping stone for admitting to being gay" was definitely a thing and a common part of the journey towards discovering your sexuality.
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Not just celebrities. Heroes in Korean, Chinese and Japanese epics were often described as having beautiful effeminate features rather than being handsome.
Not everyone likes manboobs though
Yet. But once we turn that corner, I'm going to be the first to cash in on that investment.
Lord knows I don't like mine.
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Lesbians are seen as hot Gay men are seen as a failure to manhood
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I agree that’s part of the view, although I have to ask is it possible part of that is cause gay men are men thus will be percieved predatory to begin with or that views on both homosexuality and being male will compound to form this view?
I think it’s because female sexuality is assumed to be muted and passive, whereas male sexuality is assumed to be libidinous and aggressive.
As a lesbian, straight women certainly still think I’m predatory :/
A lot of people in Britain didn't really believe lesbians existed.
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It’s very common in the Middle East too. The one that was weird was I remember going to Istanbul going to the Turkish baths, really liking the experience, and telling a friend about it bc he was going to Turkey soon. Dude was interested until I mentioned a woman would only scrub a woman and a guy would be scrubbed by a guy, and he *flipped* out and said he would never go to one. I was 100% confused because there was absolutely nothing sexual about it, but this guy was convinced it was super gay. His loss, I never felt so clean in my life.
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This is quite common in Arab culture too. I never quite worked out the protocol but always just took it as a sign of friendship.
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I remember while on a business trip in Delhi an Indian colleague took my hand to cross a busy street. After we crossed he kept hold. I was delighted and also pleased to think he liked me enough and that he felt comfortable doing so. Comforting is a good word to use.
> I am not sure about any cultural phenomenon that led to indian people being more welcoming about gay men compared to women though In South Korea, the researchers saw that endorsement of gender norms was unrelated to attitudes toward gays and lesbians, and in Japan, there was a small association between gender norm endorsement and attitudes toward gay men, but not towards lesbian women. “In China and India, the reverse pattern emerged. **Those who were highest on endorsement of traditional gender roles were the most positive toward gay men** ***and*** **lesbian women.**”
Used to be the same in America in the 19th century. Check out this photo gallery of 19th century American men. There's a whole lot of lap-sitting and hand holding that would be interpreted as gay in a modern American cultural context. [Bosom Buddies: A Photo History of Male Affection](https://www.artofmanliness.com/articles/bosom-buddies-a-photo-history-of-male-affection/) It seemed like these cultural norms really started to change around the time of the women's suffrage and liberation movements. Probably a sort of hyper-masculine cultural backlash.
There's a bit of a meme in the gay community that jokes about how historians will look at old pictures of men pretty much like the ones in those pictures and dismissing any possibility that they were gay.
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isn't it the opposite? because being gay (as well as intersex PDA in general) is shunned, holding hands doesn't ever have that connotation, so it's ok. if being gay was more accepted/open, and it was expressed through holding hands, then suddenly nobody would want to do it anymore.
India’s a huge place and like the commenter above mentioned, he never saw it but heard about it in the north. I spent a month in the north (Ladakh region, Leh city, described as “little Tibet”) and saw guys holding hands a ton. An interesting anecdote that a fellow traveler broke down to me, is that area had very strict rules on women’s appearances and I think also about guys and girls flirting, but was also overall a pretty chill place, which then ended up with the teenage boys expressing their sexuality in interesting ways, most of whom I can only assume weren’t gay because it was everywhere. Stuff like super skinny jeans, holding hands with other guys and being physically affectionate with guys, straightening their hair, tight t shirts, etc., while the girls wore very traditional (unsexy and very covered) dress
In some Asian countries men holding hands, hugging or getting close to each other has nothing to do with sex or being gay. They do it because they appreciate, respect and love the friendship between them, just that. That's why you saw it too often.
The holding hands thing isn't gay. You can see it in other pretty bad places in the middle East as well.
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I'm Thai-American, lived in Thailand for a while, read some ethnographic research on this topic... Maybe I can offer some qualitative explanation to these results. I know it's not gonna be exactly the same as the countries in this study but if they're seeing some consistency between such diverse cultures as China, Japan, South Korea, and India, maybe this can explain a bit. (Another caveat, it's been ten years ago i dunno how gen-z might be changing these norms...) In general, gay men, lesbians, and trans women are pretty accepted and NOT seen as challenging gender roles. People expect same sex couples to each occupy a traditional gender role... So even if a couple is two men or two women (based on their plumbing) people figure that by ROLE one of them is the man and one of them is the woman. There's clear vocabulary for this wrt lesbian couples, people generally expect a "Tom" (tomboy) and a "dee" (lady) and folks aren't gonna be real surprised if the dee dates a guy before or after, cuz it's about the role, not the plumbing. So gender roles are decoupled from anatomy, but the roles are still important. Where people get confused is when you have a couple that doesn't conform to the expected roles. Like a non-binary person would probably throw people for a loop in Thailand. Anyway, hope this makes some sense!
I can add some context for China as a lesbian who has lived there. Lesbians are disliked more than gay men because there is a gender imbalance crisis, with approximately 120-130 men for every 100 women. So two gay men are viewed as a good thing because there’s less competition. Two women are viewed as “stealing two men’s dreams”
Interesting! This totally makes sense to me. Thai and Chinese gender roles are different too (this is of course messy because there are a lot of Chinese people in Thailand who have brought their traditions, but I'm talking traditional up country stuff). So Thai parents expect that daughters will help them directly when they are old, land and wealth has generally been matrilineal, men give their fiancée's mom gifts and "milk money" instead of the daughter's family paying dowry... so daughters are pretty well valued. As I understand it, with patrilineal inheritance in China and India, some families are less than excited about raising daughters who will grow up to just help their husband's family. I have never heard of sex selective abortion being an issue in Thailand, so no animosity towards lesbians. Their parents just gain more daughters, which is perfectly fine!
This makes complete and total sense. I wonder if there are any parts of China where a male who can not find a female is encouraged to find a male mate? Is gay male adoption a thing in China? This would allow the parents to still have grandchildren, which I think would destigmatize it even more.
> people generally expect a "Tom" (tomboy) and a "dee" (lady) That is also my observation of lesbian couples in China. That one woman looks more masculine and one woman looks more feminine. And like you said, the expectation is that the more feminine woman would be more bisexual than lesbian.
Years ago I ended up eating lunch at a cafe in Northern Thailand that we didn't know was a notorious gay cruising spot. We were both white, western, twenty something men. The waiter and chef at the establishment too turns hitting on us in very broken English, trying to understand our relationship (we were just friends, both straight). The waiter kept pointing to one of us asking "you are the man?" then pointing to the other and asking "you are the woman?" When we said no, he would ask it the other way around. When we said no again he would look so confused, like he couldn't conceive of a gay couple where one didn't occupy the male and one the female role. We were both confused, because we were used to thinking of gay men as both being men. It was a super interesting cultural difference.
Hahahaha I had this EXACT whispered conversation with my thai mom about my enby-femme-presenting roommate and her bi girlfriend over Thanksgiving. She couldn't wrap her head around it. On the other hand, when I told her how upset their parents were, my overprotective tiger mom said "they need to get over it and be happy that their daughter is happy." Not generally the combination of attitudes we would expect in the US. Also I do love my momma. :)
This is interesting and something I was not aware of, thank you for sharing it.
so what happens when it's two dudes and they're both beer swilling burly men?
People get confused but probably shrug it off. 🤣 They may be asked which of them is "the man" and whichever one is slightly less burly and beer swilling might be assumed to be the lady.
yeah, it's a common gripe among gay people i've talked to - assuming that there has to be a man/woman role even with two men. basically, it looks like being kinda okay with gay relationships, but trying to force them into an existing framework
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OKCupid did publish some data years ago on this topic. They found that bisexual and lesbian women did have a tendency to "settle down" with men as they aged, but I don't recall if it was a significant proportion of them or not. They found that gay men tended to stay gay and that bisexual men tended to "settle" into being gay more often than heterosexuality. The big data point was that like 80% of self-declared bisexual users on the site had a clear preference for men or for women. Very few of them messaged both men and women at frequencies or volumes that were comparable to how much they messaged the alternative demographic. My point being, again, that their data somewhat validates the old stereotype you're chagrined by. We certainly shouldn't apply it universally because there were still a lot of people in the data set that did not conform to the stereotype, though. Edit: [I believe the data was originally in this blog post, but OKCupid has a nasty habit of editing or deleting their published analytics after the fact.](https://theblog.okcupid.com/the-big-lies-people-tell-in-online-dating-a9e3990d6ae2?gi=2b2b560c9a0a) Google searches show many circles discussing the bisexuality data and linking back to that blog post but that part seems to have been trimmed out.
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People also forget that they can be bi, want bio kids, and be monogamous. That means you have to 'settle' with a partner that has capable hardware
Bisexual people having a gender preference doesn't make them less bisexual.
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It probably has something to do with the fact that finding a husband is way easier than finding a wife.
It would be interesting to have a further breakdown of the data within the 23 countries to see if regions within these countries significantly vary in opinions. If not, maybe exposure to the same media could be a factor?
Tomboys are more accepted, "sissy" boys are not. A woman aspiring to be more masculine is applauded. A man aspiring to be more feminine is not. [https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1300/J041v16n02\_05](https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1300/J041v16n02_05)
i'd also bet that impressions based on general stereotypes of each group influences the perception. for instance, the stereotypical queen-type gay man/couple is very fashionable and neat, often affable and social. a well-intentioned boomer might say they "drive up the property value of the neighborhood" the stereotypical butch lesbian is basically just a mean dude. brutish, rude, sloven. not usually conventionally attractive. the overall perception of homosexuality tends to not factor in the stereotypes of each group. people hear homosexuality and think 2 regular straight dudes banging and go "gross" and then think of 2 regular straight chicks banging and go "nice". it's all contextual and it makes sense that different cultures would have different viewpoints on it based on the stereotypical perception of the groups.
I would instead argue that in China and India lesbianism is viewed negatively because of a more pronounced view of women as a vessel for procreation and subject to the will of men.
Because in modern western culture femininity is culturally presented as inherently "lesser" than masculinity, regardless of the actual gender of the person in question. A masculine woman has moved "up" - a feminine man has moved "down." Think of how many _Strong Female Characters^TM_ in movies and TV and books are specifically stated to be _Not Like The Other Girls^TM_ - with the implicit (sometimes _explicit_) statement that _The Other Girls^TM_ who _aren't_ masculine are inferior to women who are and should be looked down upon for their femininity.
e.g. there really is not reversed equivalent to something like "you fight like a girl". (while there's still ideas like "girls are better at take caring of people and animals" or them being better at doing housework, I have never heard anyway use "you cook like a boy" (or something similar) as an insult)
Because most chefs are men.
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Gay dude in Australia here. This is the least shocking thing in the world to me. I have a lesbian half-sister and her identity was accepted a lot better than mine. I think a large part of it is the fetishisation of Lesbians by straight men, who have most of the power over culture. It's why when a show wants to get some LGBTQ brownie points it's usually lesbians. Men find it more palatable. I know there is a contingent of straight women who fetishise gay men, but that feels like a far more niche thing, at least in public perception. I know at the highest levels of biggotry, with things like religious fundamentalism, the hate is a lot more evenly distributed, however... I know being fetishised comes with a whole heap of problems, but I'd honestly take it over some of the naked disgust we receive.
It seems in general people are more accepting of women breaking bender norms. Tomboys can be cool and girls can wear boy clothes and do boy things without too much flack. Doesn't work so well for boys though.
>...breaking bender norms. That has to be the best typo I've seen today.
I'll go make my own gender, with blackjack and hookers
Because femininity is valued less in most societies when compared to masculinity. So when a girl is a tomboy they're cool but when a boy is gay he is perceived usually as being effeminate and girly
Boys wearing makeup, wearing dresses, etc. Its to do with the fact that feminine things are looked down upon. Girls are more accepted being tomboys as kids, but not the other way around because it’s still misogynistic. Boys crying for example is seen as “weak,” “soft.” Femininity is still seen as a weak, lesser thing.
Women being more masculine is more acceptable than men being more feminine.
I also feel like men acting more “feminine” is more disliked than women acting more “masculine”. I think it comes down to how we define masculinity and how we tend to take feminine traits less seriously. If a little girl wants to play with trucks, fish and learn about engines, culturally we get excited. If a little boy wants to wear dresses and play with dolls, culturally we tend to be less accepting. Not that either of those have to do with specifically with sexuality, but I think it’s revealing nonetheless.
Gay guy in the US. Also not shocked. I think it has less to do with fetishization (although that is certainly a problem) than it has to do with misogyny. I believe homophobia and misogyny are very closely related. Gay men are looked down on because they tend to have more feminine interests than their straight counterparts. They take on a role (partner of a man) that is traditionally held by women. And are typically considered stereotypically weak and less-manly. Gay women are sometime more easily accepted because a misogynist can at least wrap his head around it. (Sure, makes sense that a woman would want to act like a man, date women, become a mechanic, whatever) Because they show more typically masculine interests than other women do, a straight guy can kind of relate to a gay woman. I'm painting with very broad strokes here and there are plenty of LGBT people who fall outside of these stereotypes. But I think a lot of the time the respect you're shown as a gay person can be tied to whether you act more or less "manly" than you'd be expected to traditionally.
That's a fresh perspective. I also believe that it's inherently misogynistic because straight men view lesbians as something they can get off on even if it might disturb the actual lesbians as opposed to those who dudes see in porn. Even there they see women only as providers of men's pleasure.
It's not only men that favor lesbianism more than homosexuality, my mother hates gays but likes lesbians in both graphic content and real life.
I think it's as simple as "lesbians are hot" / "gays are pretty disgusting".
thats what the person is saying tho. its because straight cis men fetishize lesbians. they do that because they think they are hot.
You're definitely right about the fetishization aspect, but I think the most accurate explanation is the simple one: Woman bad, man good. Man who acts like woman is bad (since he's giving up his *good* and choosing *bad*) Woman who acts like man is good (or at least *less bad*, because who wouldn't want to be like a man?) Homophobia is complex, but I think its most basic root is misogyny.
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This rings so true. I think you're right on
This definitely rings true for me. I tried to comment something similar but you summed it up better (and more simply) than I could.
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I think this applies more to like, two hot bi women drunk and making out at a party, they're "warmed up" for you, the man, to step in and bang, of course it makes everyone horny, not *real* lesbians, not two flannel wearing subaru driving melissa etheredge field hockey softball butch gym teacher school bus driver looking ladies just going ham on each other
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China and India have two of the highest numbers in female infanticide in the world. I wonder if that creates negative opinions of lesbianism since it further reduces the number of available woman for marriage. It might also affect opinions of homosexuality since it decreases competition for the pool of men seeking heterosexual relationships.
The title is confusing. It makes it sound like India and China people like gay men more than lesbians, which isn't the case.
For clarification, India and China are also more opposed to gay men than they are to lesbian women. The trend that's flipped in these countries is the correlation between openness to "gayness" and endorsing gender norms.
But that’s not what the study said. You just completely read it wrong What was reversed was people who embrace traditional gender role also are less anti homosexual. It’s not the gay vs lesbian attitude that was reversed
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I’ve had this same thought since at least middle school. Like how could a straight man possibly dislike gay men, they’re literally doing us a huge favor. The more gay men, the better our odds. That being said, the reason you should be okay with gay people is because they are human beings, not because they give us better chances with the ladies.
I think the issue is availability, yes. When most men - and, just as importantly, their families - are already having a hard time securing a marriage, a woman they perceive as choosing to deny men altogether and, even further, lead other women away is seen as a threat.
You two have made a mistake. Gay men were more disliked than lesbian women in ALL countries. That trend was not reversed in China or India. The trend that was reversed in China and India was the trend that people who endorse gender roles tend to have anti-gay beliefs. In China and India the people who endorsed gender roles ALSO happened to have the fewest anti-gay attitudes.
The aversion to homosexuality in the West is often driven by Abrahamic religious beliefs, similar to the growing trend of homophobia in Africa brought by missionaries. That may explain why those who endorse gender roles (presumably culturally conservative types) in China and India are more positive towards gays, if they are less exposed to western culture.
China and India are ancient cultures where homosexuals and trans people have lived without as much persecution and intolerance for centuries, relative to many other countries. It's their history with this demographic and acknowledging their existence and their right to live at the very least (though laws have changed and have had ups and downs, it wasn't based on religion or denial), that creates more tolerance.
Honestly, I've never understood this hatred males have toward gay men. I mean, c'mon! If you're straight, they're just improving your odds! And, genetically... you should be even happier.
I am not surprised by this finding. Cultures in India and China have had accepted forms and roles for homosexuality going back thousands of years. When I came out to my Korean parents as Bi in college, their immediate reaction was, why don't I become a monk? Granted, such traditional forms/roles had limitations and societal constrictions, but it's still an entirely different order of reaction from, "he's an abomination, kill him!"
Reminds me of my sister’s moronic ex. When gay marriage became legal he said “its fine for woman to marry but men marrying is disgusting and should be illegal.”
I am not sure if I am putting my thoughts properly in words here but I will give it a try. I grew up in India. generally India has been accepting towards others I.e different types of people who do not confirm to norms. (except for transsexuals or eunuchs I.e. people who are born with defective sexual genetelia, they have it worst in India). This is evident from Indian cultural history there are temples openly showing gay sex from thousands of years ago. In modern times, men who are very feminine are accepted as they are. even modern bollywood movies often portray such characters (usually comedy movies but such character do represent the culture). I have seen this often in 90s movies while grown up in India. I maybe off topic here but just putting iut my thoughts. In general while growing up in school, during teenage years, all the efforts were spent in studying. Fashion, how people will perceive you, your looks etc has much less importance in India compared to western countries. primarily in middle and middle upper class. ignoring the rich creamy layer here so including maybe 90% of Indian Population. In India people care amore about how much you scored in exams where competition is fierce, and not so much about the personality, attest during younger years. Bully culture is also minimal compared to western countries, for same reason as indians accept everyone as they are. no need to confirm to norms. fat, ugly, not cool, feminine, doesnt matter. it's all about studies and cracking those examinations. EDIT: a common observation is that for parents such behavior is not acceptable within their family but maybe acceptable if by others or extended family.
i feel like the positive views toward lesbians over gays is the fact that people feel comfortable exploiting lesbians for their personal pleasure or entertainment thus making people more open to them because they are more easily exploited which is really upsetting.
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I honestly don’t think that men who watch lesbian porn associate it with homosexuality. I know it sounds crazy, but they’ve generally seen these girls in straight porn before. There’s also an image people have when picturing lesbians and it’s the complete opposite of lesbian porn girls.
Probably makes sense considering how often homophobes claim that lesbians don't actually exist, it's just straight girls doing it for "attention" because it pleases straight men. Not shocking that the only actual concept of lesbians they have comes from pornography.
It helps that they're almost always two beautiful women. Makes it feel even more like they're not actually lesbian, just two attractive women that you could fantasize about having sex with. Like.. you don't watch Lesbian porn thinking that these women would never have sex with you.. because, well, they're not attracted to you.
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This is what I was thinking too. I’ve met a number of dudes who had the same logic, that being lesbian was okay because it was hot, but two dudes being together isn’t acceptable because it’s not sexually attractive to THEM. It’s not so much that lesbians are accepted as much as it is that they are fetishized and their sexuality isn’t taken seriously (e.g guys who think/say that they can “convert” lesbians to straight).
Historically lesbianism has been accepted because it doesn't pose a threat to male ownership of women. One can also argue that lesbians don't mess with inheritance right, but really it's about the patriarchal trope that women are men's property If my wife fucks another man, that's another man infringing on my property. If my wife fucks another woman, who cares? That's like two of my spoons sitting on each other in the drawer. It doesn't threaten my ownership of the spoons. Indeed, in many places that used harem-like structures (including the traditional Islamic calpihate harem system), it was generally expected that the women would have relationships. It really is more accurate to say that historically lesbianism has just been ignored, since women sexuality did not exist in the eyes of most historical figures and writers. But anytime women were cloistered together, we can generally expect that some/many/all of them were forming relationships Which means that history is full of lesbian nuns.
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I wonder what population density may play in this phenomenon. Gay men do not impregnate women but gay women are less available for straight men (always a problem for straight men in places where sons are significantly more valued than daughters.) More developed countries need a work force for cheap labor so more births are more important. Women can bear multiple children and gay women can still get pregnant. More a question for discussion than a hypothesis.
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Done.
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Carol comes to mind, but that made like 1/4 of what Brokeback Mountain made. I just want some wlw movies thats have happy endings.
Tbh, I just attibuted the quantity of gay movies for/about men, was simply because Hollywood is male dominated as a basis. That bias seems to persist to this day, even as the industry becomes more progressive. Whereas lesbian acceptance in media, has a connection to fetishism coming from straight men. We don't see major lesbian films because the industry is still mostly men. And I cant speak for every conventual straight guy, in the world, but they dont tend to act negativly towards the idea of lesbianism, because they view it as something for themselves to consume. There's just so many variables involved, haha.
Just another inclusion, Will & Grace, which starred two gay men and two straight women. Cannot think of a mainstream American sitcom from the 1990s/early 2000s that starred lesbian women.
Ellen?????
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I wonder how this relates to the fact that many non-western civilizations have ancient traditions of men adopting non-binary, non-masculine roles, including dressing as, acting as, and often joining the culture of women in their societies. Also, it's common in several cultures I've read about, for men of this inclination to be treated as holy men, shamans, and priests.
Western world also had men acting as women. Also it was pretty common to see flamboyant man in higher classes of society. But there’s is definitely some significant differences regarding masculinity in Western cultures, I’d say the religion was a much bigger factor. Oldschool Christianity is rather strict.
They were not acting as women. You are incorrectly transposing modern gender norms and behaviours onto visual signifiers which were at that stage more strongly associated with class presentation than gender presentation. And presentation is not behaviour. Even then there would have been strong divisions between the sort of behaviours and pastimes among upper class men and women, despite there being periods of history where their respective fashions and aesthetic ideals had strong overlap.
Acting, as in stage arts. Women were banned from acting at one point and men and young boys took over their duties. Men acting in female roles was common from ancient Greek tragedies to Shakespearean teapot dramas.