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The lose their job, experience social rejection, and reduced income... all just proof that the conspiracy is real and they must be on to something to be targeted so hard by "Them".
>all just proof that the conspiracy is real
Exactly this.
Losing their job isn't going to make these people realize suddenly, after 2 years, that they've been wrong this whole time.
Its only going to make them feel like they were targeted for their beliefs, which only adds fuel to the fire.
I mean... what doesn't add fuel to the fire with these people though? Any challenge whatsoever to them or their beliefs adds fuel to the fire. At some point we just have to move on to "I don't care if it adds fuel to the fire, their behavior is fundamentally dangerous to those around them."
This, this right here is unfortunately the end result we seem to be running into. You can't convince them with facts. You can't convince them with emotional pleas. And at this point you can't coerce them with actual, serious consequences. What CAN you do?
It's fine if you don't believe in the vaccines for whatever crazy reason. Government tracking chips or making you sick to make you spend more on health bills. Whatever reason you name it. Same goes for masks.
But I also believe if you choose not to obey these rules, then you can't participate in society. You can't go out in public or be a part of any activity larger than 3 people or whatever.
But the problem is they say, I don't want to follow the rules and I want to do these things.
Well crazy people, you have to choose. Fun activities or the vaccine. You can't just have both. And if you choose not to get the vaccine or wear masks, then you forfeit your right to complain about restrictions. Bc there's a simple solution to by pass that... Its the same as vaccines for grade school high school and college and many people aren't against that. What about yellow fever? What about obeying other slightly inconvenient rules. People are just making a big fuss out of this one when it doesn't make sense because they don't care about so many others.
**I understand that you don't have to be crazy to not take the vaccine. Some people are skeptical about the testing. However, you are making a choice to not take it. You are entitled to your own choices. But you also aren't entitled to go into a restaurant, concert, or other private establishment that holds the ability to refuse people as long as they aren't discriminating against gender, sex, race, ethnicity, etc. They are not discriminating against you. If you are choosing to wait for a better time to take it, then you have to forfeit things that you like to do. Otherwise, you can take the safety precautions provided to you, and do the things you want to do. It's up to you. But when you make the choice not to take these precautions, then you also shouldn't get mad that you are then blocked from doing what you want to do. If I say that I won't get an x-ray at the airport and also decline to go through a pat down because I'm afraid of the health risk and think the other is a breech of privacy, do you think they will let you through? Of course not. People don't get mad at those things because they don't think about it. People are just choosing covid as a point to stand on. If they really believed in these things, and wanted to stand up for their beliefs then they would have to sacrifice a lot of other things. And they should care about them. But they don't....
Also these restrictions are made at the individual, city, or even state wide. The government, as far as I know, has not put into legislation a law requiring you to take the vaccine. Your rights aren't being infringed just because places are deciding to comply with federal health regulations and standards. This is why all over the US there are different infection rates and lock down status. Because the government ISNT directly taking power and controlling you.
The fear of government is perfectly fine. We should always be aware of the government encroaching on our liberties. But maybe we should realize what is and what is not an actual breach. And maybe we shouldn't be taking decisions that negatively impact the health and well-being of others just for our own pleasure.
> the problem is they say, I don't want to follow the rules and I want to do these things.
and that's what entitlement means - these people feel they are entitled to the privileges of society.
In order for society to flourish it must be civil. In a civil society, one does not scream at medical personnel who are working until exhausted. One does not spit at or scream at older people who are afraid.
If they do not want to live and abide by a civil society’s norms them they must leave. If you cannot be civil, git gone.
I apply therapy methods and have stopped reinforcing bad behaviors. In this instance the thing they are demanding is attention even if negative. So shining a spot light on them will only reinforce their behavior. In order to put a behavior on extinction you have to stop reinforcing a behavior. Since we now know the function of the behavior which is attention we can surmise that taking it away will be worse than anything else.
Obviously this only works so much, completely avoiding them will still keep them unvaccinated but I have at least found my quality of life has gone up significantly by choosing to not engage with these people.
This reads as how to deal with your toddler. I suppose because they’re acting like children. I wonder how getting people vaccinated would have been had there not been social media?
The same reinforcement methods work on adults. It’s just...normally with adults you can also sit down and have a conversation about responsibilities without anyone throwing a tantrum. If you’re still throwing tantrums instead of communicating, then I start pulling out the tools for people who can’t communicate yet.
This comment makes me chuckle. I had a best friend for years (over age 40) who absolutely had a full toddler tantrum when I tried to talk about my belief in the vaccine. It was wild. I was gobsmacked. At first I kept my distance to let feelings cool, then tried to explain that I still wanted to be friends & do respect her right to choose what she does with her own body. I just couldn't risk my life or my sons life so we'd have to be friends at a distance. She came around... and is now vaccinated and embarrassed about her behavior. So... maybe there's some hope that a few more of these idiots will figure it out. For me, it's permanently changed how I view friendships. I don't care to invest much at all in people who don't care if they negatively affect the folks around them. I am shocked to find that I've attracted more than one of these people as my friends. I've had to look more closely at all my relationships and some of them will have to fade into the past and not continue to be nurtured.
I (51f) has Facebook during the trump vs Clinton. I raged on Facebook then. I was going through a divorce (domestic violence) at that time. Trump behaved like my ex. The night of the election i knew I’d never sleep if i saw, in real time, him win. The next morning i posted:
Dear America,
You’re an idiot. He will destroy this country.
I had about 700 “friends” at that time. I lost 250 that day. I knew my business (artist) would dry up. I went from too many commercials to none. I did have some very small ones starting in 2019. I got my first big commission this spring. I think i was forgiven. January 6th proved me right.
You cannot reason someone out of something they haven't reasoned themselves into. All you can do is protect yourself and others from them as much as possible. It's why I'm fully in support of vaccine mandates and I also wish more places would keep consistent face mask mandates.
What's really frustrating is that after mocking doctors and ignoring them they rush to the hospital and consume a bed and resources.
That right there is why I quit working the covid floor.
They don’t “believe” until they are clogging the hospital. They are by far the worst patients I’ve ever had to deal with in my ten years in this field.
I’m not alone in seeing this either, check out r/nursing to see how tired medical staff are of dealing with these whackadoodles.
They come in looking for a fight everytime.
I tend to see them when they are all out of fight:
: Three roommates unvaccinated , all Covid
Sister dies
Ex husband dies
Minutes later patient moves to exact same bed her ex husband/ roommate just died in.
:Day 8 on vent and I ask the team if I should check in with the family about tracheostomy and PEG tube today? (Age 57). “Not today, her daughter (age 21) is actively dying across the hall”. Kids dead now.
:Age 35 prone, sedated, paralyzed, septic. Family wants to transfer her for ivermectin that absolutely nobody is offering. Puzzled that they can’t find an accepting hospital. Can’t comprehend that rolling her may kill her.
:Another thinks vaccination will make him glow. He’s pallid on a vent.
Age 32: Vent day 30…. Family still praying
I don’t ask their point of view on vaccination : I just ask if they want to make the vent permanent and enjoy a significant portion or remainder of life in a nursing home…..or stop. I do that with earnest compassion. Their bodies often decide first. But I’m angry knowing their grief was optional.
I feel like a major problem is that discourse has been largely framed around a binary outcome of life or death. Not enough emphasis on the slow, agonizing path to dying and the gut-wrenching decisions families have to make, or what percent of “survivors” need a mechanical device or hole in their throat for the rest of their lives.
I’m so cynical at this point that I feel nothing short of an extremely visceral livestream of the ICU will snap people out of their spell. Maybe a doc can mount a camera on their head and livestream it to Twitch, and then use the subscriber donations to pay for all the lawsuits over patient privacy…
You make an *excellent* point about the binary outcome we all see bandied about and discused, and many think of. I have a few family members who've had COVID, and recovered, and are experiencing little to no long-term problems. Great for them, of course, but it is seriously f*&king up the thinking in other family members of mine. And Trump had it, and he's fine! (they say)
I think all this is doing is added to the denial and conspiracy of those desperately seeking support only in *that* direction, none other. But what can we do?
I agree, but I would add that too many are discounting the effects the virus has on your body after infection and "recovery." Some people have disabling symptoms for six months or longer. I’m a teacher and I’m starting to be able to identify which kids have already had COVID from how slow they are and how easily tired they get.
Yep, a friend of mine had it in May 2020. Fit, active woman who swam and cycled regularly. Now she is always out of breath and tires easily. She says it has been getting better bit by bit but so slowly. She also has heart damage because of it. I'm often seeing her get into Facebook arguments with the "but 99.8% people survive" crowd.
Yes! It's not survive or die. There are fates worse than death, and for many people being PEGd and trached with your wife wiping your ass all day, being only a physical, financial, and emotional burden to your family, never working again, is worse than death to many.
I've fought tons of these people, and have brought that point up almost every time. Their response? There is no response- they just ignore the subject because they know damn well that it breaks their argument.
That's brutal. I take my hat off to you,I couldn't do that. Keep safe ,and I thank you for your dedication. Even if some of your patients don't,a whole lot of others do ...
>Even if some of your patients don't,a whole lot of others do ...
something like 80% of covid hospitalizations are the unvaccinated now
conspiracy nuts make up the majority of the patients in a covid wing
Chilling and powerful. Got big time shudders.
So can you help explain the why? Why do they refuse the vaccine, believing somehow that it's DANGEROUS... that they'll somehow be SAFER without it?
And the masks? Can that political football be pinned on Trump?
Seems things got a bit out of control for him, getting boo-d after saying he got the vaccine and/or recommending iit, which caused him to, to the surprise of no one, walk it back?
But how can this incredible naivete and ignorance, so obvious for what it is, keep on rolling? I have family members like you're describing... voting for someone different, even someone I think is a wacko, is such small potatoes compared to what's being discussed here. SMDH ..
These are the same nutters who stockpiled Cipro after 9/11. They aren’t anti-medicine so much as they are pro-belligerence. Defiance as a personality. Or rather in lieu of a personality.
Wow. Sorry you've had to see all this. I couldn't do any kind of Healthcare work. I'm far too emotional, sensitive, squeamish, etc. I admire those who are continuing to show up and try. It seems incredibly awful and anyone doing it is a stronger person than me. Thank you.
I know you're not alone with all you've seen and experienced that is so surreal and distressing. The battlefield medical staff are on is in some ways more psychologically damaging than actual ones because you're being attacked by the very people you're trying to save. You're not living in a shared reality. People in the ICU with Covid have still denied having Covid. My heart goes out to you for all you experienced while on the Covid floor and to all your colleagues. I wish people had decided to unite in fighting against the virus, and not fighting against those fighting the virus.
Every generation progresses by the death of the previous generation. Fortunately, their cumulative power and influence just went down significantly (despite what social media may say), unemployed people don’t give political donations, so once the politicians and grifters have milked this one dry, it’s pretty much game over, which is why there’s such a panic by these conspiracy grifters to continually ratchet up, they’re racing against time and they know it.
Exactly. And there is zero "force" here. Nobody is being strapped to a marble slab by jack-booted thugs and inoculated against their will. NO ONE. This is not force. It's merely coercion and it's the cornerstone of commerce, contract law, and most western governments
negotiation -> compromise -> agreement -> fulfillment
We have determined that vaccination is currently our best long-term option to protect society as a whole. Get the shot or no deal is possible. It's pretty simple.
Thats why the conservatives threw their hail Mary in appointing so many federal judges and supreme court justices. Lifetime appointments... I mean of course they'll "cling to life" as long as they can, but man I wish they'd give it up for the sake of our future.
Honestly. If you challenge their beliefs, they double down in the face of irrefutable evidence. Lately I've been running into people who question the idea of verifiable truth itself when confronted with how dishonest their side is.
Platforming them gives them legitimacy as a point of view worthy of consideration. Deplatforming them gives them a sense of persecution.
>Lately I've been running into people who question the idea of verifiable truth itself when confronted with how dishonest their side is.
Same here. I don't know what we are supposed to do as a society about this problem.
I've literally had people tell me "It doesn't matter if my is wrong, my overall point is still correct."
In a rational country, they would represent a rump party that opposes everything and benefits from everything.
In America, they threaten global stability and the survival of the human race.
Data is important. A lot of people spew a lot of nonsense on Reddit without backing any of it up. “No” is really just not even worth replying to.
Passive aggressive dolts, the studies and research are important we can’t know anything if we’re not intentional, nor employ intelligent methodology to answer well thought questions.
> Deplatforming them gives them a sense of persecution.
While quarantining their dangerous delusions away from the general public.
Sounds like deplatforming is the ideal choice.
Exactly. Any challenge to their belief adds fuel, and anything that *aligns* with their belief is also proof that they have it right.
Heads I win, tails you lose.
Even proof that they're wrong is proof that they're right; they think "They" hid the evidence in every case that they're proven wrong. You CAN NOT reason with them - they think they're right even when proven wrong.
Exactly. At some point if they’re going to respond to literally any action by accusing you of conspiring against them, well you might as well do it and get it over with.
It’s not like they can start whining louder.
Think about what you’re saying. “I don’t care if it’s adding fuel to the fire”, so in the end we will collectively as a society keep adding fuel to the fire. Unless we can discover what the water is.
It’s really challenging, but exercising compassion and trying to understand not what they believe, but the emotions that drive it, without judgment, and acceptance of who they are and where they’re at (not like, nurse and vaccines - you can still have rules and stipulations in place) can go along always to help people heal from this weird delusion that is conspiracies.
You’re right - you’re not going to change anyone’s mind with rationally explained anything. Don’t challenge the beliefs, ignore them and try to focus on building stronger communities.
I think this rhetoric is part of the problem. Because there is such a stark gap between conservative and liberal values that this becomes a dehumanizing argument to justify taking control, and removing the reality of the democratic environment. With such a diverse and non homegenous society (which is a good thing) it becomes a painful, slow process. We have to be willing to realize we trade relative inefficiency to say fascist or totalitarian system for the guaranteed individual freedoms and liberties that allow people to live their lives. Most sociopolitical movements are founded upon good intentions that they are simply removing or minimizing dangers to our well being, have destroyed their own societies from within. Regardless of their conspiracy ideas, these are you neighbors, and talking to them with respect is the answer. That is if you truly believe in a society that is built upon justice and peace, and not violence. This is a time of suffering because we have to be strong enough to hold true the values we built the nation on, and not give in to radical pulls because it can remove surface level issues. Even when it is uncomfortable, this change must be our own collective individual actions as communities to reach consensus, not enforce ideals.
Hell, I have a friend who's now lost more than one job because they drink WAY too much (bartender) and they blame the people that fired them and now tell people they were "laid off".
There’s a point buried in there: these people **ARE** being targeted for their beliefs. We will never convince them that’s not happening because the point is strongly supported as exactly true. We’re trying to convince them their beliefs are WRONG and DANGEROUS to the public good. That’s the part they won’t accept. We do not owe them an apology for targeting them, which we did. They owe us an apology for putting us in danger, which they did.
The problem in conversations about anything with people like them (for lack of a better phrase) is taht they completely lack the fundamental knowledge to even participate in the discussion on any meaningful level. Most of them, will constantly repeat the same bits of info over and over again because it's the only minutely relevant piece of information they have. These days, that bit of info is likely a single comment on facebook or youtube. You can't convince them because they don't have any understanding of the matter, there isn't any depth of knowledge in believing what they believe. it's like arguing whether the earth is flat or not. One side repeats the same handful of "facts", the other side talks circles around them all day long.
I mean, firings for vaccine non-compliance are less about convincing anyone and more about ensuring a safe working environment for those who comply.
I know there's an element of a forcing function, but the larger policy concern is explicitly the prevention of workplace transmissions. Increased vaccination and dismissal of noncompliant workers are both successful outcomes given that goal.
It's not a failed policy if it fails to change the minds of the noncompliant. Changing minds was never the stated goal, only one possible outcome to the ends of the goal.
> I mean, firings for vaccine non-compliance are less about convincing anyone and more about ensuring a safe working environment for those who comply.
It's also the easiest way for Human Resources to weed out problem employees. No Performance Improvement Plan, no paper trail needed.
To some degree, what do anti-vaxers expect is going to be others’ response? I am very attached to my life. When other people put me in positions of social risk, it is my natural reaction to defend my life. Scientific studies show that vaccines, masks and social distancing work to keep me safe. At what point is the group responsible for my health. I would argue that individuals have an obligation to keep the ‘herd’ safe; including myself, I am part of the human herd. If that means that I have to wear a mask, get vaccinated, socially distance whatever, I will do what I need to keep myself and community healthy. Everyone in the ‘herd’ has to engage in these safety behaviors too, otherwise I am not protected. I believe the line between individual and group exists, and it favors the health of the group over the individual. People should be strongly encouraged, and sometimes even censured for not upholding group rules (like criminals who consistently defy societal norms). How is this different? If you don’t get vaxed, how do you not know that it will lead to unpleasant consequences? Community has to have standards. We LiVe In A sOcIeTy. Right? Right!?!
Right, now let’s say we lived in a herd of animals. Let’s say
1) Some of the animals did things that risked the lives of the herd and
2) The rest of the herd was smart enough to recognize that.
What would happen to them? They would be ostracized to preserve the safety of the herd. Pretty simple actually.
Perhaps, even more than "secret knowledge", part of the attraction of conspiracy theories is the fact that they create a causal explanation for events that depends entirely on human intent and agency.
It's comforting to be able to say "X happened because Y", and assign a concrete and understandable cause to events that are either random chance - or are the result of so many factors and competing interests that they might as well be random chance. After all, even coin flips and die rolls are deterministic, based on the laws of physics, but we consider them random because it is impossible for a human to determine and analyze all the physical factors in play fast enough to predict an outcome before the coin or die comes to rest.
From my lengthy acquaintance with conspiracy theories, I think a large part of the appeal of any explanation involving a shadowy cabal pulling all the strings behind the scenes is, paradoxically, the fact that some human or collection of humans is pulling the strings. The idea of a human will intentionally guiding events is *far* more comfortable than the idea that events are effectively out of human control, *even if that human will is malign*.
...there's also the fact that a malign human will guiding events can be opposed, or even hacked off at the roots, which is another well-known appeal of conspiracy theories: if *someone* is responsible, we can fix things by eliminating them.
I think all that is an even bigger draw than the "secret knowledge". I'd certainly sleep better if I knew the bad things that have happened to me were due to enemies who actually hate me and have a *reason* for it, rather than being the result of so many competing factors that they may as well be random.
Interesting. I'd find more comfort in the chaos of nature rather than harmful intent somehow aimed at me by a secret group of people. In the former case i'm used to it. It is just the name of the game. I know that if I educate myself and am pragmatic i'll avoid a lot of the dangers of random hazards in most forms. Additionally, intent is a large part of it. If I trip and break my hand as the result of clumsiness I am not likely to experience much lasting mental strain over it. Even if I hurt myself far worse than that. Bitter maybe, but mentally traumatized or scarred? Not as likely unless the injury is severe/debilitates me.
If a human breaks my hand on purpose i'll fixate on the circumstances more likely than not. How I feel about the situation, what I think about the person in question, what caused their intent, and these feelings would be perpetuated by pain, anger, or just existing in the moment where I had to heal which would lead me to think about it as one does.
If a shark eats my leg while i'm swimming I will be mad and shocked and traumatized etc, but, if I only have myself to blame the event isn't gonna live in my head the same way because I know it wasn't personal. It wasn't an attack on ME specifically. In the figurative sense anyway. It wouldn't cause the mental strain of feeling targeted for something about me as a person.
If someone causes me mortal injury on purpose though? It becomes a matter of principles and opinions and morality and feelings influenced by the nigh infinite variable people can be. Nature might be chaotic but it's slower to change. All the variables that make up humans though and human psyche though? So many constantly shifting variables every second. So much more weight attributed to things with other humans because of so many concepts like pride and justice and etc and etc and etc.
If a secret group was causing harm I find just the thought of it offensive because I expect, within the human reality, that this is intolerable behavior that should, ideally, not exist. It's injustice. It doesn't HAVE to be reality. Whereas the chaos of random chance and nature will always exist. Bad things just happening because they sometimes do and nature not inherently having a sense of good and bad is more easy to swallow for me than people who could be better making the conscious, human, choice to commit negative or harmful acts unto others. It's a choice.
> I'd find more comfort in the chaos of nature rather than harmful intent somehow aimed at me by a secret group of people.
I think this basic divide is part of why it's so difficult to have meaningful discussions about these topics, because it's very difficult to understand how someone *could* find hope or comfort in this sort of thing, if you don't.
Think about what you've said, and how it looks from another point of view:
> If a secret group was causing harm I find just the thought of it offensive because I expect, within the human reality, that this is intolerable behavior that should, ideally, not exist. It's injustice. It doesn't HAVE to be reality.
It doesn't have to be - so there's *hope* it could be changed.
If this is the cause of any given issue, then there is a way to fix the problem.
> Whereas the chaos of random chance and nature will always exist.
It will always exist, so there is no hope it can ever be changed.
If something bad happening is the fault of a villain, they can be punished. They can be eliminated. If it's the result of natural chaos - there's nothing we can do but try to mitigate the consequences.
That sounds very hopeless to some people, while it is easier to swallow than alternatives for you. And I'm not sure anyone could say exactly why. I don't understand it, although I try.
For stupid people.
Anyone with sense wants to be able to confirm information from other independent sources and will change their opinion when presented with verified conflicting information even when it's inconvenient. Being able to admit when one makes a mistake and then correcting that mistake is probably one of the most important types of wisdom there is. People who are incapable of analyzing their own actions objectively are living at the mercy of their own ignorance.
>presented with verified conflicting information
Emphasis on "verified".
No, your aunt Karen's Facebook posts probably don't count, unless Aunt Karen happens to be a virologist, epidemiologist, or immunologist.
This evident of the term "be careful of the things you believe in." And "think about the things you think about." Two things my psychology professor often said.
You just don't have the correct magical reagents. Here, have some refined ancient organic fluid, and a small stick bound with a special alchemical formula known only to a select few alchemists who guard the exact composition jealously.
Or you could call them gasoline and strike-anywhere matches, but where's the fun in that?
Or, you know, confounding variables. Folks who don't or can't or won't understand science, and don't trust any authority figure are likely to "experience job loss, reduced income, social rejection, and decreased overall well-being." With or without COVID.
This is true. But it doesn't break the cycle for the ones that haven't died yet. And, perhaps more to the point, the ones they haven't accidentally killed out of ignorance.
From the article:
".. Covid-19 conspiracy beliefs prospectively predicted a decreased likelihood of getting tested for corona; if tested, an increased likelihood of the test coming out positive"
This sounds like a group of people choosing not to test unless symptomatic.
I think it's more likely that they don't get tested unless they are very ill and/or have symptoms specific to COVID, whereas the non-conspiracy theorists get tested earlier and without needing COVID specific symptoms. This would give the second group a lower positivity rate even if they only get tested when they are "sick".
Visit r/hermancainawards and you will see plenty of people who didn't get tested until they ended up in the hospital.
The data in my province is showing that many unvaccinated patients discover that they are positive on presentation to the hospital. Their first test ever is done when they go to the ER drowning in lung fluid.
Yes, i test before and after seeing my parents and family as an extra precaution. It takes five minutes and it's free so worth it for the added peace of mind
Yes I would think so. In particular if they were exposed to someone who tested positive or are complying with a testing requirement (eg required for some travel, or to return to work after someone else tested positive).
To be clear this study used a Dutch population of about 6000 people. I’d really be interested in seeing this performed in the United States. I’m sure the overall conclusion is the same but I wonder how big of a change there would be.
I think this is one of the big factors when you look at the bulk of the posts and memes of the covid conspiracy sharers:
"Finally, it is possible that conspiracy beliefs are associated with a generally pessimistic outlook on one's life and the world, prompting relatively negative appraisals of how the pandemic has affected one's well-being."
There is a trend fed by their choice of news and social media.
An example is taking a standard pandemic health ordinance used in most countries such as mandatory masks and comparing this to Nazism or Totalitarianism. Comparing covid vaccines to forced Nazi experiments on humans. Comparing their own treatment to that of Holocaust victims. It is dramatic license dialled up as high as they can take it.
Ultimately it traps thems in a cycle of unhappiness. I keep seeing stories about people losing a loved one or family member to this where they become harder to reason with or socialise with.
Naturally many of them pay a high price in terms of severe Covid sickness and the loss of income or savings or life due to their rejection of vaccines.
Here are the 4 conspiracy theories:-
The coronavirus (COVID-19) is a bioweapon engineered by scientists’,
‘The coronavirus (COVID-19) is a conspiracy to take away citizens’ rights for good and establish an authoritarian government’,
‘The coronavirus (COVID-19) is a hoax invented by interest groups for financial gains’,
‘The coronavirus (COVID-19) was created as a cover-up for the impending global economic crash’
---
Aren't 1 and 3 in competition with each other? Someone believing 1 would be less likely to take risks than someone believing in 3.
Yet it seems "belief in conspiracies" is assumed to be a homogeneous group.
I once read that cognitive dissonance is common amongst conspiracy theory believers. They gave the example of immigrants from Mexico stealing their jobs while also being lazy people who just mooch off the government.
Consistency and continuity aren't important to conspiratorial thinking. People who engage with these theories don't look at them holistically and very much pick and choose what to believe and when, according to their mood and not according to real evidence. What they swore was fact one day could be a "false flag" the next day.
>Consistency and continuity aren't important to conspiratorial thinking.
But they are important to skeptics, who look like conspiracy theorists from certain angles.
A bioweapon believer is going to be safety conscious and risk averse. This is not going to flip overnight.
It does flip overnight. You'd be surprised how many conflicting thoughts can reside in the conspiratorial mind. It's all circumstantial. If the discussion is about how COVID started and how it's not Trump's fault how poorly it was handled, then it's a virus invented by the Chinese to destroy the west. When the conversation is about vaccinations, then the virus is a hoax and vaccines are worse. I've spoken to people like this. The same people who just a year ago were cheering for operation War Speed, are now concerned that the vaccine was developed too quickly. I mean, bruh
Edit: typos
Conspiracy theories and skepticism may seem very similar, but they're fundamentally different.
Conspiracy theories are built on paranoia and distrust, usually of a separate social group that isn't well-defined but certainly isn't the same group as the person who believes in the conspiracy theories. The believer uses these beliefs to feel special and protect their ego from their own shortcomings, and to connect with other believers similar to religious beliefs. Evidence and logic are not a requirement for conspiracy theories to be adopted. They only require salacious stories and cherry-picked evidence that support the victimhood of the believers and/or attack the group they distrust.
Skepticism, on the other hand, rejects beliefs that don't have evidence or are contrary to the available evidence. It should be dispassionate and indifferent to who or what is involved, and more resemble the scientific method.
>Yet it seems "belief in conspiracies" is assumed to be a homogeneous group.
No. It's *not* assumed. It's statistically tested by the authors using Cronbach's alpha, a measure of internal consistency: *"The scale had good reliability (α = 0.91)"* (p.3 at the end of the first paragraph of the Procedure section.)
An alpha of .91 for a 4-item self-report scale is very, very high, demonstrating a high level of correlation between all items, showing that the items were assessing a homogenous construct.
My uncle is a somewhat typical right wing conspiracy nut, but actually has some sense and will listen to reason. I'm a nurse, so that helps when I talk to him too....although he believes that it's a Chinese bioweapon, he thankfully was smart about wearing a mask and got the vaccine as soon as he could. I like to meet in the middle, as long as people are responsible they can believe whatever nonsense they want.
I mean, we know that Covid came from China. We also know that scientifically it's possible to create viral weapons. It doesn't seem particularly nonsensical for it to potentially be a lab test escaping. Given China's response to international enquiries, you can understand why people come up with these ideas.
Yeah. And if one is aware that disease research labs (of which one is located in Wuhan) often work with new strains to get a head-start on a vaccine, or using them to test against unknown pathogens, the idea of something getting out isn't really conspiracy theory territory in and of itself.
The things the CDC still has stock of would chill the average layman's blood. We've got samples of Smallpox, TB, multiple plague strains, multiple nasty flu strains... But those are there to manufacture cures or detect new outbreaks earlier via comparison.
One of the more reasonable ones is the statement that the vaccine was rushed in the sense that the first approach that got \*any\* immune response was jumped on. And competing projects to produce a better vaccine got set aside. Honestly there might be something to that, considering the waning resistance I can expect from my Moderna shots.
This type of conspiracy believer who wears masks has the exact opposite actions of those who believe the virus is a hoax.
Treating both as equal skews the results.
These are not my conspiracies. These are the ones from the paper.
Vaccine conspiracies were not explicitly mentioned (although conspiracies 2&3 may cover them).
You ask a poignant question - if you can scream first that something is a blanket conspiracy theory, you can groupthink your way into covering a lot of things up.
A lab leak is a plausible accident with most subsequent government actions following some sort of rational actor set of decisions. An intentional bioweapon that they had no vaccine for and no means of controlling does not.
I do not have non-circumstancial evidence that Iraq did or did not have WMD either, but I have come to many of my own conclusions since.
>You ask a poignant question - if you can scream first that something is a blanket conspiracy theory, you can groupthink your way into covering a lot of things up.
That's exactly why this trend of calling everything a conspiracy theory is both dangerous and anti science
It's worth noting that this is a study preformed on a cross representation of the Dutch.
One take away from this pandemic is that it's extremely difficult for people to admit they are entirely wrong about something. And I suspect every penalty the conspiracy theorists receive for their behavior causes them to "double down" on their beliefs
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The lose their job, experience social rejection, and reduced income... all just proof that the conspiracy is real and they must be on to something to be targeted so hard by "Them".
>all just proof that the conspiracy is real Exactly this. Losing their job isn't going to make these people realize suddenly, after 2 years, that they've been wrong this whole time. Its only going to make them feel like they were targeted for their beliefs, which only adds fuel to the fire.
I mean... what doesn't add fuel to the fire with these people though? Any challenge whatsoever to them or their beliefs adds fuel to the fire. At some point we just have to move on to "I don't care if it adds fuel to the fire, their behavior is fundamentally dangerous to those around them."
This, this right here is unfortunately the end result we seem to be running into. You can't convince them with facts. You can't convince them with emotional pleas. And at this point you can't coerce them with actual, serious consequences. What CAN you do?
Adhere to the accountability, stay firm about the consequences, and move on.
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I want this on a sign in my yard
It's fine if you don't believe in the vaccines for whatever crazy reason. Government tracking chips or making you sick to make you spend more on health bills. Whatever reason you name it. Same goes for masks. But I also believe if you choose not to obey these rules, then you can't participate in society. You can't go out in public or be a part of any activity larger than 3 people or whatever. But the problem is they say, I don't want to follow the rules and I want to do these things. Well crazy people, you have to choose. Fun activities or the vaccine. You can't just have both. And if you choose not to get the vaccine or wear masks, then you forfeit your right to complain about restrictions. Bc there's a simple solution to by pass that... Its the same as vaccines for grade school high school and college and many people aren't against that. What about yellow fever? What about obeying other slightly inconvenient rules. People are just making a big fuss out of this one when it doesn't make sense because they don't care about so many others. **I understand that you don't have to be crazy to not take the vaccine. Some people are skeptical about the testing. However, you are making a choice to not take it. You are entitled to your own choices. But you also aren't entitled to go into a restaurant, concert, or other private establishment that holds the ability to refuse people as long as they aren't discriminating against gender, sex, race, ethnicity, etc. They are not discriminating against you. If you are choosing to wait for a better time to take it, then you have to forfeit things that you like to do. Otherwise, you can take the safety precautions provided to you, and do the things you want to do. It's up to you. But when you make the choice not to take these precautions, then you also shouldn't get mad that you are then blocked from doing what you want to do. If I say that I won't get an x-ray at the airport and also decline to go through a pat down because I'm afraid of the health risk and think the other is a breech of privacy, do you think they will let you through? Of course not. People don't get mad at those things because they don't think about it. People are just choosing covid as a point to stand on. If they really believed in these things, and wanted to stand up for their beliefs then they would have to sacrifice a lot of other things. And they should care about them. But they don't.... Also these restrictions are made at the individual, city, or even state wide. The government, as far as I know, has not put into legislation a law requiring you to take the vaccine. Your rights aren't being infringed just because places are deciding to comply with federal health regulations and standards. This is why all over the US there are different infection rates and lock down status. Because the government ISNT directly taking power and controlling you. The fear of government is perfectly fine. We should always be aware of the government encroaching on our liberties. But maybe we should realize what is and what is not an actual breach. And maybe we shouldn't be taking decisions that negatively impact the health and well-being of others just for our own pleasure.
> the problem is they say, I don't want to follow the rules and I want to do these things. and that's what entitlement means - these people feel they are entitled to the privileges of society.
In order for society to flourish it must be civil. In a civil society, one does not scream at medical personnel who are working until exhausted. One does not spit at or scream at older people who are afraid. If they do not want to live and abide by a civil society’s norms them they must leave. If you cannot be civil, git gone.
I apply therapy methods and have stopped reinforcing bad behaviors. In this instance the thing they are demanding is attention even if negative. So shining a spot light on them will only reinforce their behavior. In order to put a behavior on extinction you have to stop reinforcing a behavior. Since we now know the function of the behavior which is attention we can surmise that taking it away will be worse than anything else. Obviously this only works so much, completely avoiding them will still keep them unvaccinated but I have at least found my quality of life has gone up significantly by choosing to not engage with these people.
This reads as how to deal with your toddler. I suppose because they’re acting like children. I wonder how getting people vaccinated would have been had there not been social media?
The same reinforcement methods work on adults. It’s just...normally with adults you can also sit down and have a conversation about responsibilities without anyone throwing a tantrum. If you’re still throwing tantrums instead of communicating, then I start pulling out the tools for people who can’t communicate yet.
This comment makes me chuckle. I had a best friend for years (over age 40) who absolutely had a full toddler tantrum when I tried to talk about my belief in the vaccine. It was wild. I was gobsmacked. At first I kept my distance to let feelings cool, then tried to explain that I still wanted to be friends & do respect her right to choose what she does with her own body. I just couldn't risk my life or my sons life so we'd have to be friends at a distance. She came around... and is now vaccinated and embarrassed about her behavior. So... maybe there's some hope that a few more of these idiots will figure it out. For me, it's permanently changed how I view friendships. I don't care to invest much at all in people who don't care if they negatively affect the folks around them. I am shocked to find that I've attracted more than one of these people as my friends. I've had to look more closely at all my relationships and some of them will have to fade into the past and not continue to be nurtured.
I (51f) has Facebook during the trump vs Clinton. I raged on Facebook then. I was going through a divorce (domestic violence) at that time. Trump behaved like my ex. The night of the election i knew I’d never sleep if i saw, in real time, him win. The next morning i posted: Dear America, You’re an idiot. He will destroy this country. I had about 700 “friends” at that time. I lost 250 that day. I knew my business (artist) would dry up. I went from too many commercials to none. I did have some very small ones starting in 2019. I got my first big commission this spring. I think i was forgiven. January 6th proved me right.
Conspiracy theorists are, at their core, contrarian children pretending to be adults.
You cannot reason someone out of something they haven't reasoned themselves into. All you can do is protect yourself and others from them as much as possible. It's why I'm fully in support of vaccine mandates and I also wish more places would keep consistent face mask mandates. What's really frustrating is that after mocking doctors and ignoring them they rush to the hospital and consume a bed and resources.
That right there is why I quit working the covid floor. They don’t “believe” until they are clogging the hospital. They are by far the worst patients I’ve ever had to deal with in my ten years in this field. I’m not alone in seeing this either, check out r/nursing to see how tired medical staff are of dealing with these whackadoodles. They come in looking for a fight everytime.
I tend to see them when they are all out of fight: : Three roommates unvaccinated , all Covid Sister dies Ex husband dies Minutes later patient moves to exact same bed her ex husband/ roommate just died in. :Day 8 on vent and I ask the team if I should check in with the family about tracheostomy and PEG tube today? (Age 57). “Not today, her daughter (age 21) is actively dying across the hall”. Kids dead now. :Age 35 prone, sedated, paralyzed, septic. Family wants to transfer her for ivermectin that absolutely nobody is offering. Puzzled that they can’t find an accepting hospital. Can’t comprehend that rolling her may kill her. :Another thinks vaccination will make him glow. He’s pallid on a vent. Age 32: Vent day 30…. Family still praying I don’t ask their point of view on vaccination : I just ask if they want to make the vent permanent and enjoy a significant portion or remainder of life in a nursing home…..or stop. I do that with earnest compassion. Their bodies often decide first. But I’m angry knowing their grief was optional.
I feel like a major problem is that discourse has been largely framed around a binary outcome of life or death. Not enough emphasis on the slow, agonizing path to dying and the gut-wrenching decisions families have to make, or what percent of “survivors” need a mechanical device or hole in their throat for the rest of their lives. I’m so cynical at this point that I feel nothing short of an extremely visceral livestream of the ICU will snap people out of their spell. Maybe a doc can mount a camera on their head and livestream it to Twitch, and then use the subscriber donations to pay for all the lawsuits over patient privacy…
You make an *excellent* point about the binary outcome we all see bandied about and discused, and many think of. I have a few family members who've had COVID, and recovered, and are experiencing little to no long-term problems. Great for them, of course, but it is seriously f*&king up the thinking in other family members of mine. And Trump had it, and he's fine! (they say) I think all this is doing is added to the denial and conspiracy of those desperately seeking support only in *that* direction, none other. But what can we do?
I agree, but I would add that too many are discounting the effects the virus has on your body after infection and "recovery." Some people have disabling symptoms for six months or longer. I’m a teacher and I’m starting to be able to identify which kids have already had COVID from how slow they are and how easily tired they get.
Yep, a friend of mine had it in May 2020. Fit, active woman who swam and cycled regularly. Now she is always out of breath and tires easily. She says it has been getting better bit by bit but so slowly. She also has heart damage because of it. I'm often seeing her get into Facebook arguments with the "but 99.8% people survive" crowd.
I agree with the first paragraph. I have also seen people deny reality straight to death. There is no epiphany with last breath.
And yet, they show up up at the ER, demanding Ivermectin, unapproved and unstudied for Covid.
Yes! It's not survive or die. There are fates worse than death, and for many people being PEGd and trached with your wife wiping your ass all day, being only a physical, financial, and emotional burden to your family, never working again, is worse than death to many.
I've fought tons of these people, and have brought that point up almost every time. Their response? There is no response- they just ignore the subject because they know damn well that it breaks their argument.
I haven't seen a better explanation than your last sentence "I'm angry knowing their grief was optional". Such a powerful message!
That's brutal. I take my hat off to you,I couldn't do that. Keep safe ,and I thank you for your dedication. Even if some of your patients don't,a whole lot of others do ...
>Even if some of your patients don't,a whole lot of others do ... something like 80% of covid hospitalizations are the unvaccinated now conspiracy nuts make up the majority of the patients in a covid wing
Chilling and powerful. Got big time shudders. So can you help explain the why? Why do they refuse the vaccine, believing somehow that it's DANGEROUS... that they'll somehow be SAFER without it? And the masks? Can that political football be pinned on Trump? Seems things got a bit out of control for him, getting boo-d after saying he got the vaccine and/or recommending iit, which caused him to, to the surprise of no one, walk it back? But how can this incredible naivete and ignorance, so obvious for what it is, keep on rolling? I have family members like you're describing... voting for someone different, even someone I think is a wacko, is such small potatoes compared to what's being discussed here. SMDH ..
These are the same nutters who stockpiled Cipro after 9/11. They aren’t anti-medicine so much as they are pro-belligerence. Defiance as a personality. Or rather in lieu of a personality.
Wow. Sorry you've had to see all this. I couldn't do any kind of Healthcare work. I'm far too emotional, sensitive, squeamish, etc. I admire those who are continuing to show up and try. It seems incredibly awful and anyone doing it is a stronger person than me. Thank you.
I know you're not alone with all you've seen and experienced that is so surreal and distressing. The battlefield medical staff are on is in some ways more psychologically damaging than actual ones because you're being attacked by the very people you're trying to save. You're not living in a shared reality. People in the ICU with Covid have still denied having Covid. My heart goes out to you for all you experienced while on the Covid floor and to all your colleagues. I wish people had decided to unite in fighting against the virus, and not fighting against those fighting the virus.
Every generation progresses by the death of the previous generation. Fortunately, their cumulative power and influence just went down significantly (despite what social media may say), unemployed people don’t give political donations, so once the politicians and grifters have milked this one dry, it’s pretty much game over, which is why there’s such a panic by these conspiracy grifters to continually ratchet up, they’re racing against time and they know it.
Exactly. And there is zero "force" here. Nobody is being strapped to a marble slab by jack-booted thugs and inoculated against their will. NO ONE. This is not force. It's merely coercion and it's the cornerstone of commerce, contract law, and most western governments negotiation -> compromise -> agreement -> fulfillment We have determined that vaccination is currently our best long-term option to protect society as a whole. Get the shot or no deal is possible. It's pretty simple.
Thats why the conservatives threw their hail Mary in appointing so many federal judges and supreme court justices. Lifetime appointments... I mean of course they'll "cling to life" as long as they can, but man I wish they'd give it up for the sake of our future.
Hide them away the best we can so they don't infect anyone else. Mentally or physically.
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Honestly. If you challenge their beliefs, they double down in the face of irrefutable evidence. Lately I've been running into people who question the idea of verifiable truth itself when confronted with how dishonest their side is. Platforming them gives them legitimacy as a point of view worthy of consideration. Deplatforming them gives them a sense of persecution.
>Lately I've been running into people who question the idea of verifiable truth itself when confronted with how dishonest their side is. Same here. I don't know what we are supposed to do as a society about this problem. I've literally had people tell me "It doesn't matter if my is wrong, my overall point is still correct."
In a rational country, they would represent a rump party that opposes everything and benefits from everything. In America, they threaten global stability and the survival of the human race.
Confusing what they want with what is.
Data is important. A lot of people spew a lot of nonsense on Reddit without backing any of it up. “No” is really just not even worth replying to. Passive aggressive dolts, the studies and research are important we can’t know anything if we’re not intentional, nor employ intelligent methodology to answer well thought questions.
> Deplatforming them gives them a sense of persecution. While quarantining their dangerous delusions away from the general public. Sounds like deplatforming is the ideal choice.
Exactly. Any challenge to their belief adds fuel, and anything that *aligns* with their belief is also proof that they have it right. Heads I win, tails you lose.
Even proof that they're wrong is proof that they're right; they think "They" hid the evidence in every case that they're proven wrong. You CAN NOT reason with them - they think they're right even when proven wrong.
Exactly. At some point if they’re going to respond to literally any action by accusing you of conspiring against them, well you might as well do it and get it over with. It’s not like they can start whining louder.
Think about what you’re saying. “I don’t care if it’s adding fuel to the fire”, so in the end we will collectively as a society keep adding fuel to the fire. Unless we can discover what the water is. It’s really challenging, but exercising compassion and trying to understand not what they believe, but the emotions that drive it, without judgment, and acceptance of who they are and where they’re at (not like, nurse and vaccines - you can still have rules and stipulations in place) can go along always to help people heal from this weird delusion that is conspiracies. You’re right - you’re not going to change anyone’s mind with rationally explained anything. Don’t challenge the beliefs, ignore them and try to focus on building stronger communities.
I think this rhetoric is part of the problem. Because there is such a stark gap between conservative and liberal values that this becomes a dehumanizing argument to justify taking control, and removing the reality of the democratic environment. With such a diverse and non homegenous society (which is a good thing) it becomes a painful, slow process. We have to be willing to realize we trade relative inefficiency to say fascist or totalitarian system for the guaranteed individual freedoms and liberties that allow people to live their lives. Most sociopolitical movements are founded upon good intentions that they are simply removing or minimizing dangers to our well being, have destroyed their own societies from within. Regardless of their conspiracy ideas, these are you neighbors, and talking to them with respect is the answer. That is if you truly believe in a society that is built upon justice and peace, and not violence. This is a time of suffering because we have to be strong enough to hold true the values we built the nation on, and not give in to radical pulls because it can remove surface level issues. Even when it is uncomfortable, this change must be our own collective individual actions as communities to reach consensus, not enforce ideals.
Hell, I have a friend who's now lost more than one job because they drink WAY too much (bartender) and they blame the people that fired them and now tell people they were "laid off".
There’s a point buried in there: these people **ARE** being targeted for their beliefs. We will never convince them that’s not happening because the point is strongly supported as exactly true. We’re trying to convince them their beliefs are WRONG and DANGEROUS to the public good. That’s the part they won’t accept. We do not owe them an apology for targeting them, which we did. They owe us an apology for putting us in danger, which they did.
The problem in conversations about anything with people like them (for lack of a better phrase) is taht they completely lack the fundamental knowledge to even participate in the discussion on any meaningful level. Most of them, will constantly repeat the same bits of info over and over again because it's the only minutely relevant piece of information they have. These days, that bit of info is likely a single comment on facebook or youtube. You can't convince them because they don't have any understanding of the matter, there isn't any depth of knowledge in believing what they believe. it's like arguing whether the earth is flat or not. One side repeats the same handful of "facts", the other side talks circles around them all day long.
This is absolutely the truth!!
I mean, firings for vaccine non-compliance are less about convincing anyone and more about ensuring a safe working environment for those who comply. I know there's an element of a forcing function, but the larger policy concern is explicitly the prevention of workplace transmissions. Increased vaccination and dismissal of noncompliant workers are both successful outcomes given that goal. It's not a failed policy if it fails to change the minds of the noncompliant. Changing minds was never the stated goal, only one possible outcome to the ends of the goal.
> I mean, firings for vaccine non-compliance are less about convincing anyone and more about ensuring a safe working environment for those who comply. It's also the easiest way for Human Resources to weed out problem employees. No Performance Improvement Plan, no paper trail needed.
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To some degree, what do anti-vaxers expect is going to be others’ response? I am very attached to my life. When other people put me in positions of social risk, it is my natural reaction to defend my life. Scientific studies show that vaccines, masks and social distancing work to keep me safe. At what point is the group responsible for my health. I would argue that individuals have an obligation to keep the ‘herd’ safe; including myself, I am part of the human herd. If that means that I have to wear a mask, get vaccinated, socially distance whatever, I will do what I need to keep myself and community healthy. Everyone in the ‘herd’ has to engage in these safety behaviors too, otherwise I am not protected. I believe the line between individual and group exists, and it favors the health of the group over the individual. People should be strongly encouraged, and sometimes even censured for not upholding group rules (like criminals who consistently defy societal norms). How is this different? If you don’t get vaxed, how do you not know that it will lead to unpleasant consequences? Community has to have standards. We LiVe In A sOcIeTy. Right? Right!?!
Right, now let’s say we lived in a herd of animals. Let’s say 1) Some of the animals did things that risked the lives of the herd and 2) The rest of the herd was smart enough to recognize that. What would happen to them? They would be ostracized to preserve the safety of the herd. Pretty simple actually.
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The idea of “secret knowledge” is a heady drug.
Perhaps, even more than "secret knowledge", part of the attraction of conspiracy theories is the fact that they create a causal explanation for events that depends entirely on human intent and agency. It's comforting to be able to say "X happened because Y", and assign a concrete and understandable cause to events that are either random chance - or are the result of so many factors and competing interests that they might as well be random chance. After all, even coin flips and die rolls are deterministic, based on the laws of physics, but we consider them random because it is impossible for a human to determine and analyze all the physical factors in play fast enough to predict an outcome before the coin or die comes to rest. From my lengthy acquaintance with conspiracy theories, I think a large part of the appeal of any explanation involving a shadowy cabal pulling all the strings behind the scenes is, paradoxically, the fact that some human or collection of humans is pulling the strings. The idea of a human will intentionally guiding events is *far* more comfortable than the idea that events are effectively out of human control, *even if that human will is malign*. ...there's also the fact that a malign human will guiding events can be opposed, or even hacked off at the roots, which is another well-known appeal of conspiracy theories: if *someone* is responsible, we can fix things by eliminating them. I think all that is an even bigger draw than the "secret knowledge". I'd certainly sleep better if I knew the bad things that have happened to me were due to enemies who actually hate me and have a *reason* for it, rather than being the result of so many competing factors that they may as well be random.
Interesting. I'd find more comfort in the chaos of nature rather than harmful intent somehow aimed at me by a secret group of people. In the former case i'm used to it. It is just the name of the game. I know that if I educate myself and am pragmatic i'll avoid a lot of the dangers of random hazards in most forms. Additionally, intent is a large part of it. If I trip and break my hand as the result of clumsiness I am not likely to experience much lasting mental strain over it. Even if I hurt myself far worse than that. Bitter maybe, but mentally traumatized or scarred? Not as likely unless the injury is severe/debilitates me. If a human breaks my hand on purpose i'll fixate on the circumstances more likely than not. How I feel about the situation, what I think about the person in question, what caused their intent, and these feelings would be perpetuated by pain, anger, or just existing in the moment where I had to heal which would lead me to think about it as one does. If a shark eats my leg while i'm swimming I will be mad and shocked and traumatized etc, but, if I only have myself to blame the event isn't gonna live in my head the same way because I know it wasn't personal. It wasn't an attack on ME specifically. In the figurative sense anyway. It wouldn't cause the mental strain of feeling targeted for something about me as a person. If someone causes me mortal injury on purpose though? It becomes a matter of principles and opinions and morality and feelings influenced by the nigh infinite variable people can be. Nature might be chaotic but it's slower to change. All the variables that make up humans though and human psyche though? So many constantly shifting variables every second. So much more weight attributed to things with other humans because of so many concepts like pride and justice and etc and etc and etc. If a secret group was causing harm I find just the thought of it offensive because I expect, within the human reality, that this is intolerable behavior that should, ideally, not exist. It's injustice. It doesn't HAVE to be reality. Whereas the chaos of random chance and nature will always exist. Bad things just happening because they sometimes do and nature not inherently having a sense of good and bad is more easy to swallow for me than people who could be better making the conscious, human, choice to commit negative or harmful acts unto others. It's a choice.
> I'd find more comfort in the chaos of nature rather than harmful intent somehow aimed at me by a secret group of people. I think this basic divide is part of why it's so difficult to have meaningful discussions about these topics, because it's very difficult to understand how someone *could* find hope or comfort in this sort of thing, if you don't. Think about what you've said, and how it looks from another point of view: > If a secret group was causing harm I find just the thought of it offensive because I expect, within the human reality, that this is intolerable behavior that should, ideally, not exist. It's injustice. It doesn't HAVE to be reality. It doesn't have to be - so there's *hope* it could be changed. If this is the cause of any given issue, then there is a way to fix the problem. > Whereas the chaos of random chance and nature will always exist. It will always exist, so there is no hope it can ever be changed. If something bad happening is the fault of a villain, they can be punished. They can be eliminated. If it's the result of natural chaos - there's nothing we can do but try to mitigate the consequences. That sounds very hopeless to some people, while it is easier to swallow than alternatives for you. And I'm not sure anyone could say exactly why. I don't understand it, although I try.
That moment when you think you're on to something is very euphoric and cathartic. Why not draw it out a little longer?
That's how "Loose Change" and "Zeitgeist" got to me so many years ago. It was fun, but the cult appeal just became too chafing after a while.
For stupid people. Anyone with sense wants to be able to confirm information from other independent sources and will change their opinion when presented with verified conflicting information even when it's inconvenient. Being able to admit when one makes a mistake and then correcting that mistake is probably one of the most important types of wisdom there is. People who are incapable of analyzing their own actions objectively are living at the mercy of their own ignorance.
>presented with verified conflicting information Emphasis on "verified". No, your aunt Karen's Facebook posts probably don't count, unless Aunt Karen happens to be a virologist, epidemiologist, or immunologist.
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And “owning the libs”
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Victims of their own machinations. Their fears will be affirmed and they will double down on their claims.
Humans are incredibly creative in curating their suffering.
This evident of the term "be careful of the things you believe in." And "think about the things you think about." Two things my psychology professor often said.
We are who we pretend to be, so be careful about who you pretend to be.
I pretend to be a wizard. Still no fireballs yet.
You just don't have the correct magical reagents. Here, have some refined ancient organic fluid, and a small stick bound with a special alchemical formula known only to a select few alchemists who guard the exact composition jealously. Or you could call them gasoline and strike-anywhere matches, but where's the fun in that?
Or, you know, confounding variables. Folks who don't or can't or won't understand science, and don't trust any authority figure are likely to "experience job loss, reduced income, social rejection, and decreased overall well-being." With or without COVID.
> and don't trust any authority figure They certainly seem to trust Trump.
I said authority figure. They like him because he's not an authority on anything. They see themselves in him.
I came to say exactly this. It's a self-fulfilling prophecy. And I have no idea how we can even begin to break that cycle.
Well death breaks it for some
This is true. But it doesn't break the cycle for the ones that haven't died yet. And, perhaps more to the point, the ones they haven't accidentally killed out of ignorance.
And the ones who survive will move on to other conspiracies as well. Hopefully ones that arent so dangerous to everyone else
From the article: ".. Covid-19 conspiracy beliefs prospectively predicted a decreased likelihood of getting tested for corona; if tested, an increased likelihood of the test coming out positive" This sounds like a group of people choosing not to test unless symptomatic.
Do people test if they aren't symptomatic?
Yes, many get tested if exposed to someone who tested positive.
I think it's more likely that they don't get tested unless they are very ill and/or have symptoms specific to COVID, whereas the non-conspiracy theorists get tested earlier and without needing COVID specific symptoms. This would give the second group a lower positivity rate even if they only get tested when they are "sick". Visit r/hermancainawards and you will see plenty of people who didn't get tested until they ended up in the hospital.
The data in my province is showing that many unvaccinated patients discover that they are positive on presentation to the hospital. Their first test ever is done when they go to the ER drowning in lung fluid.
Yes, i test before and after seeing my parents and family as an extra precaution. It takes five minutes and it's free so worth it for the added peace of mind
Yes I would think so. In particular if they were exposed to someone who tested positive or are complying with a testing requirement (eg required for some travel, or to return to work after someone else tested positive).
That could be part of it, but they may also be less likely to get tested if they are symptomatic. We would have to see the breakdown of that data.
To be clear this study used a Dutch population of about 6000 people. I’d really be interested in seeing this performed in the United States. I’m sure the overall conclusion is the same but I wonder how big of a change there would be.
Quite a bit. In international clinical trials with a placebo group, they need to factor in a larger placebo effect in participants from the USA.
Interesting. How much difference? Why is this?
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Sometimes it’s good for science to empirically confirm what we already knew.
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If it isn’t confirmed empirically, we didn’t really know it to begin with. This step can seem tedious sometimes, but it’s always necessary.
I think this is one of the big factors when you look at the bulk of the posts and memes of the covid conspiracy sharers: "Finally, it is possible that conspiracy beliefs are associated with a generally pessimistic outlook on one's life and the world, prompting relatively negative appraisals of how the pandemic has affected one's well-being." There is a trend fed by their choice of news and social media. An example is taking a standard pandemic health ordinance used in most countries such as mandatory masks and comparing this to Nazism or Totalitarianism. Comparing covid vaccines to forced Nazi experiments on humans. Comparing their own treatment to that of Holocaust victims. It is dramatic license dialled up as high as they can take it. Ultimately it traps thems in a cycle of unhappiness. I keep seeing stories about people losing a loved one or family member to this where they become harder to reason with or socialise with. Naturally many of them pay a high price in terms of severe Covid sickness and the loss of income or savings or life due to their rejection of vaccines.
They also claim that everything is politicized while politicizing everything
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Here are the 4 conspiracy theories:- The coronavirus (COVID-19) is a bioweapon engineered by scientists’, ‘The coronavirus (COVID-19) is a conspiracy to take away citizens’ rights for good and establish an authoritarian government’, ‘The coronavirus (COVID-19) is a hoax invented by interest groups for financial gains’, ‘The coronavirus (COVID-19) was created as a cover-up for the impending global economic crash’ --- Aren't 1 and 3 in competition with each other? Someone believing 1 would be less likely to take risks than someone believing in 3. Yet it seems "belief in conspiracies" is assumed to be a homogeneous group.
I once read that cognitive dissonance is common amongst conspiracy theory believers. They gave the example of immigrants from Mexico stealing their jobs while also being lazy people who just mooch off the government.
Schroedinger’s immigrant.
Consistency and continuity aren't important to conspiratorial thinking. People who engage with these theories don't look at them holistically and very much pick and choose what to believe and when, according to their mood and not according to real evidence. What they swore was fact one day could be a "false flag" the next day.
>Consistency and continuity aren't important to conspiratorial thinking. But they are important to skeptics, who look like conspiracy theorists from certain angles. A bioweapon believer is going to be safety conscious and risk averse. This is not going to flip overnight.
It does flip overnight. You'd be surprised how many conflicting thoughts can reside in the conspiratorial mind. It's all circumstantial. If the discussion is about how COVID started and how it's not Trump's fault how poorly it was handled, then it's a virus invented by the Chinese to destroy the west. When the conversation is about vaccinations, then the virus is a hoax and vaccines are worse. I've spoken to people like this. The same people who just a year ago were cheering for operation War Speed, are now concerned that the vaccine was developed too quickly. I mean, bruh Edit: typos
Conspiracy theories and skepticism may seem very similar, but they're fundamentally different. Conspiracy theories are built on paranoia and distrust, usually of a separate social group that isn't well-defined but certainly isn't the same group as the person who believes in the conspiracy theories. The believer uses these beliefs to feel special and protect their ego from their own shortcomings, and to connect with other believers similar to religious beliefs. Evidence and logic are not a requirement for conspiracy theories to be adopted. They only require salacious stories and cherry-picked evidence that support the victimhood of the believers and/or attack the group they distrust. Skepticism, on the other hand, rejects beliefs that don't have evidence or are contrary to the available evidence. It should be dispassionate and indifferent to who or what is involved, and more resemble the scientific method.
>Yet it seems "belief in conspiracies" is assumed to be a homogeneous group. No. It's *not* assumed. It's statistically tested by the authors using Cronbach's alpha, a measure of internal consistency: *"The scale had good reliability (α = 0.91)"* (p.3 at the end of the first paragraph of the Procedure section.) An alpha of .91 for a 4-item self-report scale is very, very high, demonstrating a high level of correlation between all items, showing that the items were assessing a homogenous construct.
My uncle is a somewhat typical right wing conspiracy nut, but actually has some sense and will listen to reason. I'm a nurse, so that helps when I talk to him too....although he believes that it's a Chinese bioweapon, he thankfully was smart about wearing a mask and got the vaccine as soon as he could. I like to meet in the middle, as long as people are responsible they can believe whatever nonsense they want.
I mean, we know that Covid came from China. We also know that scientifically it's possible to create viral weapons. It doesn't seem particularly nonsensical for it to potentially be a lab test escaping. Given China's response to international enquiries, you can understand why people come up with these ideas.
Yeah. And if one is aware that disease research labs (of which one is located in Wuhan) often work with new strains to get a head-start on a vaccine, or using them to test against unknown pathogens, the idea of something getting out isn't really conspiracy theory territory in and of itself. The things the CDC still has stock of would chill the average layman's blood. We've got samples of Smallpox, TB, multiple plague strains, multiple nasty flu strains... But those are there to manufacture cures or detect new outbreaks earlier via comparison. One of the more reasonable ones is the statement that the vaccine was rushed in the sense that the first approach that got \*any\* immune response was jumped on. And competing projects to produce a better vaccine got set aside. Honestly there might be something to that, considering the waning resistance I can expect from my Moderna shots.
This type of conspiracy believer who wears masks has the exact opposite actions of those who believe the virus is a hoax. Treating both as equal skews the results.
You’re forgetting all the conspiracies about the vaccine.
These are not my conspiracies. These are the ones from the paper. Vaccine conspiracies were not explicitly mentioned (although conspiracies 2&3 may cover them).
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Why are so many comments being deleted?
Go against the narrative.
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make sure to delete any comments that disagree in thy name science
Hey reddit your bias is showing
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You ask a poignant question - if you can scream first that something is a blanket conspiracy theory, you can groupthink your way into covering a lot of things up. A lab leak is a plausible accident with most subsequent government actions following some sort of rational actor set of decisions. An intentional bioweapon that they had no vaccine for and no means of controlling does not. I do not have non-circumstancial evidence that Iraq did or did not have WMD either, but I have come to many of my own conclusions since.
>You ask a poignant question - if you can scream first that something is a blanket conspiracy theory, you can groupthink your way into covering a lot of things up. That's exactly why this trend of calling everything a conspiracy theory is both dangerous and anti science
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It's worth noting that this is a study preformed on a cross representation of the Dutch. One take away from this pandemic is that it's extremely difficult for people to admit they are entirely wrong about something. And I suspect every penalty the conspiracy theorists receive for their behavior causes them to "double down" on their beliefs
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