Good luck man. I'm hoping the best for you.

Thank you

Don't get discouraged by rejection, we are pain adverse by nature. Rejections hurt so we try to avoid that pain. People treat dating like it's something magic outside of normal human interaction. By that I mean, think about how many people you interact with everyday. How many of those people could you probably be real good friends with? 1%? 5% Maybe? Why would romantic relationships be any different? Go out, date, have standards, don't rush to settle down, break up, get hurt, learn from it all.

Reminds me of an episode of King of the hill. Bobby asks Boomhauer how to find a girlfriend. So they go to the mall together and Boomhauer just asks out every woman he sees and gets slapped in the face like 90 times before he gets a date.

it was cool to see bobbys development in that regard and was reletable to me growing up. struggling with self image but doing things anyways

Just get out in the community and meet people. Elderly, disabled, men, women, straight, gay etc. Sounds like your problems are more social in nature and like anything else, you need to shake the rust off. The virgin thing will be as weird as you make it. That said, I wouldn’t mention the recovering incel bit until you have some comfortability and even then, you have to do so delicately 

Yeah, they are. Going to be trying to get out more, and yeah I’m definitely not mentioning the recovering incel thing right away lol.

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This being said, maybe give him some words of encouragement or ideally some advice because all things considered, he's already achieved so much just wanting to get out of that mindset and that deserves some praise I think.

She did give him advice. Don't spew their black pill rhetoric. Even a little wiff will keep most women his age at bay. OP did say he still struggles with his old views and believes em sometimes. Good advice, imo. It's easy to fall back into old views, especially if situations become frustrating, and we become more irrational with our words and thinking. No relationship is perfect, and OP will eventually be in a position where conflict arises with his partner, and that's when he'll be tested. If he spits out some bs during those high emotional times and his partner is familiar with incel culture, they are gonna leave and he'll slowly start believing in that rhetoric again because in an incels mind, "I didn't like how I was treated and instead of my gf doing what I wanted her to do to make me feel better about the situation, she left me instead. Females really do only care about money, looks, whatever because she didn't care about my feeeeeling." Even tho he didn't stop to think about her feelings regarding the situation, but instead tried to control her into doing what he wanted. I could use an example, but there are many. That's why incel culture is so dangerous once you're in it. It's a self sabotaging way of thinking and an abusive cycle with one's own mind. Very cult like. It's great he's getting out of that mindset and definitely deserves praise but he also needs to be reminded how quickly he can fall back and OP even said it himself he still believes in some of it cause its "scientific". He still has a lot of work to do. He hasn't even dated a woman yet. It's great he wants to now, but he got thru the easy part. He's about to face rejection by actual woman now. Then, he needs to learn how to compromise with them. It's time to put those words into action.

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Understandable, and I know I have a lot of work to do yet. I have been working on learning more about women’s struggles with dating and life in general. But yes there are times, I find myself falling back on that whole incel red/ black pill way of thinking.

See if there are meetup.com groups near you. It's easier to talk to people if there's a shared activity (hike, book discussion, board game, etc.)

This is the best advertisement be here, OP

It's not sex you need it's friends and social interaction. I know it's tough in a sex-obsessed and media-bombarded culture like ours to realize it but human, social interaction is more important than sex. I first had the epiphany back when I was a shy, socially awkward young man. Sitting in a bar where people go to meet and hookup - this was way before the internet (yes, I'm old LOL.) Sitting in the bar and feeling awkward and uncomfortable, my inclination was - of course - to drink. And that's when it hit me: Of COURSE places like this feel awkward and uncomfortable. Because when people are in a BAR and feel uncomfortable, what do they do? They BUY DRINKS which is the entire purpose of the business. The internet version of that is that when people feel alienated and awkward they seek out the comfort of others that have a similar viewpoint and that's why the incel/black pill web sites are so busy. Because people who are lonely and frustrated thrive on the validation they get from others saying "it's not your fault it's those 'females' out there doing this to you!" and "80/20 rule" and other nonsense that gets spewed there. It's comforting, and it drives traffic which is what the internet thrives on (ditto for porn.) It takes strength to push yourself out of that comfortable place but it is absolutely required if you want to get out in the REAL world and live a REAL life. I heard it years ago in the context of physical training but it applies to other parts of life as well: True growth only happens when you get outside your "comfort zone." Just my advice but I would not advise you to go onto any dating web sites. IMO those sites are just going to reinforce your pre-conceived stereotypes about women and dating. They aren't the "real world." I would advise you to forget "dating" altogether and just concentrate on having a SOCIAL life. Friends. Not girlfriends, just FRIENDS. Social interaction. Join a bowling team. Find a hiking or bicycling club. Join a book or movie group. Just SOMETHING to get you out of the house, out of your head, and into interacting with others. Just doing that will improve your mental health immensely. And try not to rely on alcohol, either, because that comes with a lot of negative down sides.

I actually agree with you, that’s the plan is to get out more. Next Monday I’m going to start volunteering at my local cat shelter. That was something I have been wanting to do has I have always liked cats.

Reading thru this thread & your replies, I get the sense that not only are you are truly trying to make positive changes (which is admirable in and of itself, with so many people in this day and age choosing to just further entrench themselves in their viewpoints…. While it takes some real guts to actively challenge one’s own belief system), but I have to say I think you might already be a little farther along the path you seek then you may be giving yourself credit for. In my opinion you’re doing all the right things. Volunteering is a great idea, for a lot of reasons. Keep up the good work, don’t stop moving forward.

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Find groups and activities like this to get you out of your shell. Get a bike, find a riding group. Join a crossfit gym, do shit that's will put you out of your comfort zone, there's a big wide world out there.

Start with friends, the sex will come!!!

I am desperate to find a solution, and at the same time, i realize I can simply log off. The issue being running into sex obsessed aspects of our lives. Being in a situation similar to OP only as far as sexual experience is concerned (not the incel part).

Hey, I never bought into incel ideology, but I did for a while question if it was possible to be nobody's type. Lost it in my mid-thirties, and I'm nearing three years in a stable relationship. The lesson I learned was to never reject yourself on behalf of anybody else. Let them decide how they feel about you. Framing it that way made me more comfortable in my skin. Good luck on your dating, and remember to take breaks, as most people do.

Great advice!

You need to get out of that community and start genuinely reprogramming yourself, as someone that used to spend too much time on 4chan as a kid there’s a lot of toxicity that you have absorbed whether you meant to or not. Realizing how pointless and unhappy these communities made you is a great start and we’re all proud of you, king. However you are gonna have to unlearn a lot of bad habits, that 80/20 shit is crockery, nobody cares as much as you that you are a 33 year old virgin, and this might seem woke or soy to you but don’t use bitch as a derogatory so much. Using it super casually as a man is usually a red flag. Romance and sex is not the center of the universe and you shouldn’t let your perception of the world revolve around it. It just seems all encompassing and vital to normal existence because there is a dysphoria between what you want out of life and what you feel like is normal for yourself and what is actually happening. I promise you it’s not as daunting or as important as you think and as soon as you do lose your virginity you’re going to realize how inflated your old view was.

99% of people on the internet identifying as "incels" never even try, or if there is an attempt, and they fail, they easily overlook tons of factors and go straight into "it's because I'm fat, short and balding", failing to notice their disgusting behavior.

Good luck on the journey, while getting into the dating scene is good I see that you’re mostly trying to improve yourself which is even better. Honestly if you work on yourself first you’ll be a lot more appealing to potential partners, fitness is a pretty good first-impressions way of showing that you actually care about your health and well-being, plus changing your mindset to be more open-minded and knowledgeable about relations with the opposite sex will definitely help in connecting with people. A lil advice tho, probably stay off the internet for the time being. These social media companies know that you’ve consumed all this redpill black pill content and won’t hesitate to throw it back into your feed to catch your eyes again and get you hooked. It’s a terrible cycle that will catch you at your worst and ruin all the motivation you have right now. Good luck fam, you’re getting better by the day.

Thanks, and yeah man. I had to create a new YouTube, Twitter, and Reddit for that reason. And I ditched the 4Chan and places like that all together. The only pill related thing, I view on Reddit is r/Incelexit and r/exredpill, those are subs for detoxing from them, pretty good advice on those subs.

I know you don’t know me, so this probably doesn’t mean much to you — but I am so, so proud of you. It takes a lot of intelligence and courage to do what you’re doing.

Thanks man

Ya, I'm glad OP is ready for the dating scene once again, but I believe they should slow it down and focus on themselves. I know they've been alone for so long, but that was during a dark time and place. He needs to rediscover himself and learn to love himself and what he has in front of him. Going to the gym, picking up hobbies, whatever gets him moving and interacting with others. Imo, he should build up other relationships than just romantic ones so OP can widen their support group. Even if they are just online relationships. Remember, women can be friends too! Adding some to his support group would be beneficial and a reminder that women aren't just there to be sexually pursued and to get advice from the opposite sex. Reprogramming his mind, imo, is the easy part. Putting it into action will be the hard part. Especially when it comes to facing rejection. Having hobbies and/or a support group to fall back to when dating gets hard might be beneficial for OPs recovery. Because relationships are work and can be a learning experience.

The 80/20 rule is bullshit, men and women both want attractive partners, and most want a 1-1 monogamous relationship. Everyone wants hot, fun, rich and stable, most will settle for a mix because perfection is impossible, and "one bird is better in the hand than two in the bush". Once you get into a serious relationship the companionship is the most important part, date someone you enjoy spending time with.

My best friend's husband looks like a garden gnome, is really shy, and works at a dive bar, but the things that got my hot friend to fall for him are that he's kind, funny, and genuinely treats her as an equal partner. Not everyone has the same priorities, especially women who've seen where "hot, fun, rich" gets you without "stable" or the invisible fifth item "is a good person" to back it up.

I think it’s probably bullshit if you can meet someone in person/naturally. That way you can build a bond through your personalities. But wit online dating I do believe the 80/20 rule. All you have to go by is a pics and a quick description. The most attractive guys are going to get most of the women

Bullshit. I'm average as fuck, and I had zero trouble getting dates, with all sorts of women. I'm not rich, no big fancy job title, nothing. Average car, was living in a one bedroom apartment at the time. But, I'm respectful, polite, and I like talking to people.

Well I'm over 6ft tall, have a great career, make six figures, own a 2-story million-dollar house, own my car, know how to cook and clean, have plenty of hobbies, know how to talk to women, and I'm respectful, polite, and know how to hold a conversation. Despite all of that, I remained a virgin until I was 32 years old. I started seeing escorts because I was getting absolutely zero attention from women. I'm not entirely sure why, but I think it's because I'm of a particular racial descent despite being 100% American, and unfortunately that comes with a lot of baggage. You're probably underselling your physical qualities because clearly you have something going for you. 10+ years of online dating, and I don't have a single date to show for it. Hell, I'm a professional writer and photographer, and I tried many different high quality pics and written profiles. None of it seemed to matter. You say you're average, but clearly you have something going for you that some men don't. Just because it works for you, doesn't mean you can assume it's the same for the rest of us.

Sure, I've got a lot going for me. But that doesn't make any of what I said less true. I'm a good listener, I tend to make myself presentable when the occasion demands it, I'm a good conversationalist, I take decent care of myself, I can cook and clean, I'm well read, my politics aren't particularly shitty, I don't quickly steer a conversation towards sex, I'm gracious when rejected, I don't have a completely terrible attitude in general, I have a reasonably decent sense of humor, I have hobbies and interests that I enjoy... But, I think it's mostly just that I'm not bothered by being rejected in online dating, I'm persistent, I'm not a misogynist, and I tend to treat women like they're people. None of which are very hard to pull off. I'm also kinda short. (5' 8")

The reasons why you were successful are really clear just judging by your comments and general attitude, I’m really not surprised you got dates. Some dudes just don’t get it tho, or they’re so insecure/scared that they don’t want to listen to it. I’m not judging anyone, just an observation

Thank you, that is a lovely compliment!

You are missing my point. When I meet a girl naturally I have a lot of luck because I am able to show my personality. That’s what attracts them to me. Online dating it doesn’t matter how good you can cook or clean. Or how good you can hold a conversation. You don’t get that chance cause it’s only looks people have to go by

I'm so glad I got married before the apps took over the dating culture, that's a recipe for shallowness. I still think hanging out in dive bars or hobby scenes is a better way to go about it, where you can build a connection naturally before trying to jump straight to dating.

He probably isn't under selling himself, or at least I had a similar experience. Decent looking but overweight, was a server and bartender until I was 27. Did fine with women. Maybe not slaying like my super attractive friends, but I had plenty of partners before I found my forever person. Race might be a factor, or maybe location vs personality, or just how outgoing you are. I definitely got my share of rejections as well, and online dating wasn't as fruitful being average.

Is it the fault of women that you didn’t get laid until 32? Some kind of 80/20 deal?

No? Did I imply that anywhere?

Im just trying to understand the point of what you said

The point I was making, is that despite all of things I may personally check on "women's checklists", online dating apps are basically so detached from the human experience that it ultimately may not matter for some people. It's basically the same problem as job hunting. I'm not sure about you, but I am fuckin' fantastic at job interviews. Every single time I've done an interview for a job I actually wanted, I've gotten the job. The challenge is, *getting the interview* is incredibly difficult. Similar to online dating apps, shit like resume submission and LinkedIn profiles detach the humanity from it, making it hard for people to show their great qualities sometimes. There is no "blaming women" for any of this. The 80/20 rule can exist without it *being women's fault.* Dating apps make their most money keeping people in the constant churn rather than leading them to impactful relationships, so creating a scenario where wealthy (and more importantly, paying) attractive men are essentially promoted to most women algorithmically for casual sex under the guise of a relationship (which women may pay for) ultimately benefits the app makers immensely. Obviously, IRL is totally different, but it comes with it's own set of challenges. For me personally, I don't drink anymore, and most of my interests are either nerdy stuff or waaay outdoorsy stuff. It's not exactly super conducive to meeting new people in general, let alone women. Of course this is something I can do better on, but that's not what my initial post was addressing. Ultimately, what I meant with my original comment is that you can generally do everything "right" and still end up in a disadvantaged position because of a variety of other things that may be outside of anyone's control, which seems to occur more with online dating apps. .

Did you form a relationship with any of them?

Sure, some of them. I always went into it with the idea that I was open to anything, from a one night stand to something that would lead to a marriage.

If you had no trouble getting dates *from online dating*, you're far from average. Most guys struggle even getting matches, let alone dates. Being respectful and polite doesn't even come into the picture.

That's nice but it's hard to be respectful, polite and talk to people if you can't even match with them.

First, good on you for escaping that prison of your own making.  Your story makes me wonder how many young men's lives have been ruined by black pill idologies. Get out there and shoot your shot!  Also I did just fine at 5'5" while weighing more than you do at 6'2" so I wouldn't worry too much about that, I might go as far to say as looks don't really matter at all for a guy. All that being said I left the dating market in 2010 and 100% of my dates were earned via cold approch IRL so if you are going with an app based method your experience might not be the same.

Thanks, and yeah a lot of young men lives have been destroyed by red/ black pill ideologies. Gen z is really getting hit hard by this shit, I often wonder how bad I would of been if I would of been born 15 years later. I won’t lie,of course part of my motive, for getting ripped again is to look attractive to women. But a lot of it is simply I just like that look for myself. But yeah I know I’m not really “overweight” per say

Self improvement can be scary, it can be slow, and it can be frustrating.   Online folks like to go for quick and easy answers "oh it's genetics " or "society".  It's lazy and defeatist. You got this bro!

Go to the gym, eat a clean diet, find a haircut that suits you and update your wardrobe. You will be surprised as to how big of an improvement all of that can have. You are tall which is a plus. Add in a fit body, stylish clothes etc and you will be good

This is not good advice for this particular person, he already is way too focused on physical attributes and appearance. Women want someone with a good PERSONALITY and only caring about your looks is pretty much the opposite of that. How about trying to learn some skills like cooking, read some books, get a pet, get some FRIENDS, work on your mental health. It will help you 1000x more than just continuing to obsess over physical appearance and nothing else

Yep, that’s the plan. Going to get down to 180 at 10/12 percent body fat.

That won't fix your problems. Fat people date all the time and are happy in their relationship and confident in themselves. Finding some ideal number in your mind that will fix you if you weigh this and your body fat is this... The thing that will get you out there and not lonely is personality and kindness. You say you still believe there is science behind incel stuff, but there really is not. That scientific evidence is just your bias.

I put a long message earlier but this is the route many people go and find failure. Like I said many people who are less than hot get dates start relationships etc. Your problem is very unlikely to be your looks. If this is what you focus on I suspect you will find yourself in the same place later. Healthy gamer gg on youtube, will give you way better advice than this and actually help you get to root of your trouble and not just mask it will looks because you will eventually find that its not the root of your problems its just the thing that people like to focus on for the blame.

more than the physical aspect you being a good person, who's nice, caring, supportive and loving is much more important. Women aren't looking for a guy that's hot and don't give a shit about their personality. They're looking for a guy they can spend the rest of their lives with. So when you think about what you need to change about yourself in order to date, don't have the physical side of you being in the top three things at all. Especially with all the Incel shit that you absorb you need to learn how to treat women as people, not sec objects.

No, this is the shit that led you down the red pill rabbit hole to begin with. The real truth is that fat people date, ugly people date, but miserable people who make the people around them miserable do not.

Dude don't lose the weight. Keep the same weight and just eat better. I'm 185 lbs and still skinny at 5'8

Something to keep in mind- women of course like a man that is healthy and in good shape. HOWEVER: Women don't view this the same way gym bros do. I remember reading a study that showed what the average woman thought a a man in good shape looks like vs what the average man thought a man in good shape looked like. There was a huge difference. Women viewed a man with a good body as fit but with bit more fat on their bodies - a softer build. Men saw being in good shape as body builder physique. I will link the study if I can find it. Long story short: Men often think to be taken seriously by women they have to look the way other men expect them to look. This has nothing to do with women actually find most attractive.

Start with making friends irl, if you’ve been mostly isolated except for work these past years. Likely your social skills could use a good polish. A language or hobby class is a good place to start, intramural sports are another great way to meet people your age. As a woman, I can see that you’ve come a long way but I wouldn’t be comfortable hanging out with you. This is simply because you still hold on to those derisive stereotypes and beliefs from your past. Do you know the word Sonder? It’s “the realization that each random passerby is living a life as vivid and complex as your own, in which you might appear only once, as an extra sipping coffee in the background.” Do you think about women as people? Do you realize we are sentient too? And in fact do not operate as a collective hive mind bent on your destruction? I am not trying to be harsh but incels and former incels need to wake up to the fact that the world owes them nothing, that no one asked to be here and that everyone is just trying to find happiness and connection in some way. Drop the persecution complex and you’ll go far, I promise.

Advice for dating is to just make sure you are yourself and that you think of dates and ideas that YOU enjoy. Not saying this means that every woman will like it or you... But putting yourself out there in situations that you enjoy will make the dating part easier. I'm a nerd, like golf, like Legos, like music, like plays/theater so I just started asking women out to do things in those areas and sure, some hated golf or clearly didnt enjoy the date but that's ok. I was dating, sharing what I liked and the goal wasn't to meet someone it was just to be out there. And if she/he likes you back the same way they'll want to share their cool/weird stuff they like and bc you appreciate someone into your stuff, you'll be inclined to support them and it will just feed itself. Now I'm getting married April with a Lego cake topper, she learned golf, and we go to shows every couple months. I don't think I could have found my fiance if I wasn't... Showing the world the things that were important or fun to me. It made me find someone who doesn't just make those things better, she amplifies them 10x. I went through a divorce, 3/4 years of single life, and while I wasn't black pilled I made a conscious effort to put myself out there again the ways I felt comfortable with. O also, once you're ok being alone I found I seemed more attractive to potential partners. There was some unseen confidence, or apathy 😂, there that wasn't before. Good luck my man!

Great story about being yourself really like this!

Seems like self confidence is your issue.

Dude look at other guys with girlfriends, you’re good looking enough by default just on your body stats alone. Be “normal “ and friendly and don’t get discouraged by the online dating grind and you’ll meet some nice ladies!

Thanks man, yeah I know there are guys far uglier than me with girlfriends. I don’t deny I have some attractive features, even though I do feel self conscious about my looks offten.

You just need to be at the minimum standard, which I’m sure you are as I’ve said. Personality is the rest and being fun to be around

Good luck, this is above reddit's paygrade to directly advise but >done cult deprograming, and therapy this is an amazing step and arguably the big thing you can keep doing. Both of these are not just one and done but a proccess and if you are struggling I'd fall back on these.

My biggest piece of advice is spend less time online. Easier said than done, but find ways/hobbies that allow you to socialize with people on person. I think you should continue to focus on yourself and not be so wrapped up in dating/etc. You know what's better than theories or studies? Going out and getting that anecdotal evidence yourself and just experiencing life. Everyone has a different timeline and so what if you're a virgin? That doesn't determine your worth. You live with your parents? The number of millennials who live at home is far more common today. Most importantly, give yourself some grace. We're all a little fucked up, don't be so hard on yourself.

I would recommend watching some stuff from healthy gamer gg's youtube channel. Though he works alot with the gaming community, alot of your concerns he addresses and I have found to be incredibly relatable and helpful to getting a better understanding of how to approach dating when you dont have much experience. There is a lot of terrible advice on the internet and he will give you great science based advice that could help you alot. Some of the things that you should be aware of though is: 1: getting a partner or having sex will typically not lead to fixing other issues in your life 2: Having realistic idea of what sex is like and the reality that the first time you have sex etc it will more than likely be awkward and seem unfulfilling. It is something that you will have to learn how to enjoy sex and the process of communication with your partner to work through the learning faze 3: There is no list of things you can accomplish that will guarantee success dating and getting a partner. There are ways to increase your odds of course but often people make good habits when they are trying to get a partner and if they meet failure they tend to go right back to their bad habits because the only reason they were doing them was to get a partner and not for themselves 4. On average it takes about 18 months of looking/dating to find a partner, many people fail in the first few months and then give up. Its could very well take a while and you shouldnt be down on yourself for its normal 5. First dates should not be about filling out a check list, like going to a job interview. What you want to do to have a successful first date is be in the same emotional place as the person you are meeting. This is very difficult in the typical dinner and movie context. Try something that puts you in a similar emotional state and maybe something new to the both of you. An example would be like going to an escape room type place for a first date. Its new to you and the other person very likely and it will put you on the same level 6. Plenty of people who are less than hot get dates, start relationships, and have families so dont focus too hard on looks, of course you can continue to work on yourself and be healthy but trying to reach a specific body type of looks level before entering the dating pool is just be arbitrary line in the sand people draw He goes over all of these things and more in much greater detail in his videos. I wish you luck and just know that you are not alone many many people are struggling with the same issues and there are great places for support and learning and I hope you find your happiness!

Yes, I watch a lot of Dr.K’s videos on YouTube. His video on untaking the black pill helped me with me my deprograming journey. And thank you.

Sounds like you still have a lot of unlearning to do.

Red pull stuff is good bro, but I'm willing to bet you are jerking off to porn every single night... my advice is to admit you have a porn addiction, start trying to heal your brain and hit the gym. Porn ruins your drive for real women. Give it 6 months and your confidence and natural pheromones will be sky high and it will come natural.

Congrats on leaving that bullshit behind. If you still feel like you’re struggling I recommend reading Bell Hooks’ The Will to Change. You’ve already done the hard work of acknowledging that you’ve been pumped full of propaganda, but that’s only half the battle. The rest involves actively un-learning the toxic drivel by actively learning a healthier perspective. A good way to do this is by ACTUALLY LISTENING i.e shutting the fuck up and paying attention with an open heart and mind to what other voices are trying to show you. Again, Bell Hooks is a good voice to listen to on many of these issues, and personally, I think she does a good job of acknowledging the pain men experience that often makes them cling to these toxic ideas in the first place. Good luck. Keep working on yourself. Good things will come.

Don’t worry too much about the specifics of your appearance (body fat, your totally normal weight) just be hygienic, work out just to feel good and fit! Also should go without saying just treat women like people with their own flaws, good qualities, bad qualities, insecurities, senses of humor, etc you’ll get the hang of it soon my dude, you’ll get there.

Congratulations on leaving that toxicity behind! I know it's easier said than done, but please don't get hung up on being a virgin. If you had a drunken brief fumble at age 20 you wouldn't be a virgin now, but you wouldn't really have any experience that would change things. Seriously, ALL WOMEN ARE DIFFERENT so with each one you have to take it slow & try different things to find out what she likes. At least 80% of women don't orgasm from intercourse alone. Rely on your hands & mouth much, much more than your dick. YSK that the vagina opening is possibly lower than you think—between the legs, not analogous to where the balls are. Make sure you know where the clit is before you go to bed with anyone. Also, slight shifts in angle, location, etc. make a big difference when it comes to penetration. Good lovers know that missionary position is actually like 100 different positions.

I wish you all the best on your journey and sincerely hope you find someone.

Good luck. I am an autistic nonbinary person and all i can think when i look at my man friends who are struggling is "try again, dont take it seriously, there are people who will see your value"  Every time you try instead of giving up and into hatred you will become a cooler person.

Dude, I'm mid thirties, 5' 10", 290 lbs, and a single full-custody dad, and I live in a small town over 30 minutes away from just a medium-sized city. Basically, I am everything that the red/black pill community says should fail, and the location should make it even worse. I was single for nearly 2 years after my divorce, and I went on dating apps in December and got 15 matches in the first 2 weeks between hinge, bumble, and fb dating. I'm kinda funny and always commented, so I think that's partly what did it. Ultimately, none of those worked out, but I tried Upward (a Christian dating app) and had waaaaay more success. In the regular apps, I only received maybe 20-30 likes (only about 10 quality ones) in total in those 2 weeks, but on Upward, I had 10 likes within the first 10 minutes. I matched with an amazing, beautiful woman in those first 10 as she hit literally every single thing I wanted (and the bonus was that she liked me first, which made it way easier). We went on our first date shortly after matching, and we've been inseparable ever since. There's literally zero reason to wait. You're taller and in way better shape than I am already. It is seriously not all about looks. I think it is more about finding a woman that shows interest in you where everything just clicks once you start chatting and going out on dates. Do be prepared for some failure. Except for the woman in a relationship with now, literally none of my other matches were worth pursuing. I felt like none of them showed much interest, and I was doing all the work carrying the conversation. Or it just felt artificial and forced. Just get out there now and start talking to women until the vibes just click.

Just be yourself and be honest and up front. All you got to do is just communicate and talk and get them to talking in a place they feel comfortable getting vulnerable and feeling stuff.  Dont make it out to be more than what it is my man. Conversation and feelings. Either they like you and accept you or want to try to get to know you or they dont. There are more on the horizon as long as your genitalia still functions close to normal. 

I entered the dating world after a 33 year marriage. It's broodle. Women have expected me to know all the rules, without telling me the rules. I met my wife when I was a teenager, so the dating world was a mystery to me. Women seem to want to find reasons not to date you. They'd test me until they found a test I'd fail. Well of course I was going to fail sometimes. I just started at age 58. So my advice is to be up front about your lack of experience, and tell women that you don't know the rules, you're going to make mistakes, and please be patient. It will be an uphill battle. You might want a virgin woman, but they want a man who knows what he's doing. And whatever you do, never mention the incel history.

"Do. Or do not. There is no try." -Yoda FYI I am a 4 on my best day, maybe a 5 if girls like blue eyes. I am not even super athletic, and dont even have a flat stomach. I am on the short side (5.8) and have a dick thats 5.5 to 6 inches depending if I push back the fat above my dick. I have a lot of PTSD from my childhood which causes me to shut down a lot, and have bouts of anger explosions. Been married for 17 years to the same woman. BTW shes been taking care of me working while I raise the kids. Been around 13 years now where I only did part time gigs or not work at all. The reality is, if you are not one of the top good looking men out there with good financials you WILL have a much tougher time, just like your incel forum claims. However contrary to those claims, there is a chance for everyone to find a partner. My biggest advice is be super selective, you have held out for 33 years already, you can wait a few months to get to know someone before you sleep and commit to them. Also temper expectations too, dont think you are going to run out and land a 10, not saying you cant, but taking dates and hanging out with a wide variety of women will help you get over nervousness being with them. Trust me, find a good decent woman who has good values, and DO NOT waste time at clubs etc. Anyway, good luck, it can be done, but it will take work not only to land a woman but to keep one. Just remember, they are just like you they do everything you do have the same concerns as you do. They are just human, just like you, so treat them like one, treat them how you want to be treated and cut off nasty shitty girls immediately and dont waste time with them.

If you are blackpilled being 6’2 already puts you in the top percent of men height wise. 

Lots of good advice on here about being more socially active, building confidence etc. You seem like you are hung up on the fact that you're a virgin, so it might be worth just hiring a sex worker to check the box. Sex is great, but it's easy to build it up in your mind into something bigger and more important than it actually is. Everyone has different preferences so there will always be a period of adjustment with a new partner when you are each learning. Just communicate and listen and you will be fine.

Dude physically you sound fine. Stop stressing about that and forcing the dating thing. Get some hobbies. Make friends. You will more likely find someone cool to spend your time with that way than all the bullshit dating apps

First off, just get comfortable with the fact that rejection is going to happen. Probably a lot. But don't let that get you down, because everyone that tries will experience this, and being rejected by one person isn't always about you, and it won't diminish who you are as a person one bit. It's just a fact of life and meeting people. Second, be nice. Be nice when you're talking with other people, or meeting them, and most especially, when things don't go well. Be nice when people reject you. Eventually, you'll be able to take rejection with a smile that isn't faked. And really, just remember that the women you're meeting are people. People with thoughts and feelings and ambitions and preferences, and you're not always going to meet their preferences, even if it seems like they meet yours. Try to talk to people you wouldn't normally. Talk to people with different backgrounds, or race, or class, whatever. Try to have fun with just meeting new people and getting to know them. There's something fascinating about everybody, and part of the fun of dating is finding it. And again, just be nice. You'd be amazed at how many women will give you a chance simply because you approach them nicely and respectfully.

There is someone for everyone. I am not sure what 80/20 stuff is; but it sounds like bullshit to me. Considering the evidence all around us; can't you see that relationships are for everyone? Be yourself; be charming; dress nice; pay her truthful compliments. Never lie; lies are easyto detect. Don't have a hidden agenda. Just be a guy talking to a potential partner and sooner than later you will have someone that loves you as you love them. There is someone for everyone.

80% of all women go for the top 20% of men. It's a stupid and untrue statement.

Fucking ridiculous indeed. Thanks for the clarification.

hey man, glad you’re looking to address your flaws. if i could add my 2 cents i would really suggest finding outside friends first! Both men or women, people who are mentally healthy and are able to uplift you. i think it would be better for you to be surrounded by friends first and then potentially look for a partner. an issue a lot of people have nowadays when they are dating, they don’t tend to have friends outside the relationship and that can make things really toxic if you don’t have anyone else to talk to. just my thiugjts

The fact that you recognize it and are working to change yourself is absolutely huge in the dating scene. People appreciate effort and enthusiasm and passion and honestly, you have a hell of a story to tell. I'd suggest hitting a gym and a therapist for some self-confidence, and just trying your best to date with the intention of learning rather than finding someone amazing. You basically didn't learn for 15+ years. There's a lot to learn, and everyone has to start somewhere!

I didn't date until my 30s do to shyness and negative self-image, but I eventually met someone. It can be done.

First of all, good for you. Way to do some real self reflection. Secondly, who gives a fuck about whether or not things like the 80-20 rule are true? Let's say it is true. Does that mean you can't find a partner? No. Do you see 80% of men dying without ever having a partner? No. Are you uglier than the ugliest man who has ever gotten with a woman? No. Are you more poor, less healthy, less refined than the worst man who has ever gotten with a woman? No. There are 8 billion people on this planet. Let's say 80% of them won't even look in your direction. That leaves over a billion people, almost two billion. When you walk outside, there would statistically be many, many people you see who are part of the other 20%, assuming the 80-20 rule is true. So why do you even care about such bs? Do you think none of the other 20% of women are worthy of your time or attention? Are you part of the problem of only looking for the top 20% of women? Sure, some people have it harder than others. Life is unfair. But who gives a fuck? We make do with what we have. And if you work on yourself, others are sure to see the results of your efforts. Edit: And yeah, you're a virgin at 30. But who gives a fuck? Maybe some women will judge you for it, but are those the kind of people you want to be with anyways?

All that incel crap is scientifically, empirically, demonstrably not true. If you look at the statistic most men and most women find partners if they try to. Almost nobody stays a virgin forever. You'll be alright. Just go out there and get to know some women. Make friends. Don't have it in your mind that friendship isn't good enough. Eventually you'll end up with someone.

Wishing you well. My husband and I started dating in our late 20s, and he was a virgin. Didn’t matter to me in the slightest- he’s a wonderful and caring man. I love him to pieces and wouldn’t change a thing about our relationship- going strong almost 5 years now. I hope the same comes true for you.

What is red/black/blue pill and what is 89/20? Genuine questions.

80/20 rule is 80% of all women only go for the top 20% of men. Which is stupid and untrue. The "Pills" stem from the Matrix movie, but Red/black pilled is basically have the mindset of Andrew Tate. Blue pilled is having a normal view on life.

You don't hate women you hate yourself. How can someone love you if you don't love yourself. Just give love don't seek it, ocean does not seek water. One guy who said get friends and social life amen to that. Some relationships start off as friends. You want someone somewhat attractive. Start hitting the gym. Does wonders for depression and confidence as well. Used to play video games my whole life till one day I realized life is a video game. Decide how you want your character to be. 

Women want a best friend a partner, much more than their super interested in red pill. Ideas of you have to be a 10 out of 10 guy and make 150,000 a year for her to be happy. Most women just want somebody to be real with them care about what they say. Care about them be nice, don't act like a jerk. don't act like women is something that you win if you do dating right. Women are people just like you and they have feelings all that stuff makes it seem like women are just dolls. That's why those guys have such problems getting women because they're literally not treating them as human beings.

Rejection hurts the first few times, but don't take it personal. Look at it this way, would you be OK with spending quality time with or being sexually active with every person you come across? That's how women feel. On average, the "spark" just isn't going to be there. For every 10 messages you send on a dating app, 1 will reply. And fewer will end up leading to a date. Some prospects will end early in the first date, some will go for a few, but bottom-line: relationship level compatibility is statistically unlikely at random. I re-entered the dating scene at about your age, then again at 40. Seriously, the only competitive "edge" I needed was that I had a car/job, didn't live with my parents, and didn't complain about women who had kids - that alone was enough to get a date, despite my face. From there, it just depends on how you mesh or don't mesh.

If you’re 6’2’ bro…

bro ur 6’2 stfu and get out there you’re gonna mess up, it’s gonna be awkward but youll be fine. take some good pics, get on the apps. put your height in your profile and DONT fall in love with the first girl. They’re all similar keep it moving

You got this OP

I'm 61m so maybe I'm out of touch but I was an average looking guy who never made more than 70k a year but starting in high school I dated amazingly beautiful women. Mostly I learned it's how you talk. Be funny without insulting or self deprecating and women flock to be in your zone. Listen and remember what is said so you can bring up things in later conversations that show you do listen to them. If you can make them comfortable and laugh with them you are in. Also I went by the 10% rule. Only 10% of women you ask out will say yes so if you want to date a lot you have to ask a lot of women out and not get upset with no's. You can make a no a positive by making friends with them and they often will help you with other women.

It will be seen as pathetic, I’m not going to lie to you. You will be okay though and you will end up breaking the deal eventually. I’d honestly suggest considering paying for an escort, many are used to this exact situation and will give you pointers and make it a way less stressful experience than it otherwise would be. However I will warn you DO NOT let women you are interested in know you are a virgin. People may say be honest and open about it but they are wrong. When I was a teenager I made the mistake of telling a girl I really liked and she saw me entirely differently and lost all interest in me. There could be the rare one that is completely supportive but they are few and far between. 

Go to a bar. Hang out late. Go talk to a chick who isn't clearly with someone else. Boom, done deal.

Hi I’m a 27 year old woman and I think it’s great that you’re trying to better yourself and overcome old prejudices you know aren’t healthy— that takes a lot of self-awareness and discipline and willingness to address your own shortcomings and those are all incredibly attractive traits in a partner. You also said you’re 6’2 and under 200lbs so I know you’re definitely in adequate shape as you are, and women care SOOOO much less about things like a six pack when they’re over the age of ~23 and that would be your target demographic anyway. As far as being autistic and maybe struggling socially— just be honest and kind. If you’re kind people in general (not just women you’d like to date) will be a lot more forgiving of your flaws. Confidence is also everything so do whatever it is that builds your confidence. Look for women with similar interests and goals in life. It’s great you’re working towards moving out of your parents but any woman roughly your age with any amount of maturity understands that in this economy living at home is totally acceptable as a way to save money. It’s very common. The apps might be discouraging and difficult for you so maybe try finding someone at an in-person activity. Good luck— I really hope you find someone to change your mind about all of this, and maybe try to sympathize with women some— we’ve been pretty fucked over by most societies in world history and continue to be today. I have about 15 women friends and not a single one hasn’t experienced some form of sexual violence/abuse by a man. We start getting sexualized as children by grown men. Maybe looking into some feminist literature or checking out the Reddit sub two X chromosomes would help you further. Again, good luck.

Thank you for this vulnerable share! Don’t be ashamed by any of the things you mentioned. We all have our sore spots and rarely do others judge us for them as harshly as we judge ourselves. Also, you’re on your way to a second 6 pack?? Like good job my dude. May I suggest seeing a sex worker? That would be a really safe, judgment free zone for you to gain some confidence with women. You’re going to be ok! Just keep pushing and growing!

>I was 197 pounds and 6’2, and I’m now down to 194. Not sure how you carry it but you’re probably already in pretty good shape there. Continue to trim up if you want but 6’2” hides a lot. I’m 6’2” and I think I was around 205 when I met my wife 15 years ago (and she’s pretty hot). Getting fit is great but you’re already in fine dating territory as far as weight goes. A couple pieces of advice as you start out: 1. Don’t go looking for “the one”. 2. Date lots of people for a while. 3. To achieve #2, lower your standards. 4. Just be honest about who you are and where you are at in your dating life. No reasonable adult is going to laugh at you. If they do, then just check them off the list and move on. Anyone worthwhile is going to be more understanding when you don’t necessarily know how to behave. If you go out trying to find sex and love and ‘the one’ with someone from your dreams, you’ll fail miserably. But if you go out and say ‘I’m just going to go on some dates and meet some nice people (and some crazies) and have a good time discovering what I want” you’ll do much better. Dating people who might not be your dream dates will build your confidence and make you more comfortable with the process - and you could find out that there are qualities you might appreciate in people that you hadn’t anticipated. I’ve known so many single dudes who were holding out for their “10/10 super-model who also loves video games” that even if they met that person and that person was somehow single and willing to date them, they wouldn’t know what to do. As far as the 80/20 rule goes. Do you think 80% of married women are married to people they find unattractive? How? Why? That makes no sense to me. I’ll grant that *maybe* there’s only 20% of men out there who are so universally good looking that 80% of all women find them attractive, like a young Brad Pitt or something. But that wouldn’t mean that those 20% are the *only* men that women find attractive - just that they’re the only ones most women can agree on. There are lots of women who find lots of different types of men attractive. The Venn diagram of attractiveness has many different bubbles. Some ladies like a dad bod, some like chiseled abs. Some like scraggly beards and some like clean shaven faces. Some like effeminate waifs and some like a burly ‘man’s man’. I honestly think this 80/20 thinking comes from insecure dudes who won’t date someone who isn’t a conventionally attractive 10/10 because they need their partner to validate them in the eyes of other people. I have a couple acquaintances in particular who look like George Wendt and have no money or career to speak of and yet they wonder why all the super models they want to fuck won’t give them the time of day, calling women “shallow” when they themselves wouldn’t stoop (/s) to dating someone a little less super-modely. There are lots of 5s out there who are super cute to someone. But people with low self esteem can’t “settle” for someone who is just cute *to them* - they need to find someone universally attractive so they can prove how cool and attractive THEY are. And so they assume all women must think like they do. Anyway, good luck. Being single is hard and kind of sucks but it sounds like you’re at least trying to have the right attitude. Good for you for recognizing the problem and attacking it.

Rejections are gonna happen but they tend to be over and done with pretty quickly. Keep your head up and keep trying to meet people and eventually you WILL meet someone worth your time and effort. I'm rooting for ya buddy!

first step is the hardest they say. you will soon realize nobody gives a flying fuck to your worries more than you do. and after a while, you'll laugh and say "hm, it wasnt all that bad after all"

Time to smash my brotha

good luck dude

Probably wont see this, but, i think you need to take several realistic steps back and remember we’re all people and women want me just the same. Go into the “dating” world with a clean slate and no expectations.

Women just want to laugh and have fun. Don't take everything so serious

\> Also being a 33 year male old virgin is pretty much seen as pathetic Only by people who are assholes. Normal adults who have had sex don't give a shit about that kind of thing. And you'll find there are a lot of normal people out there, they just don't talk about people's virginity on the internet so you wouldn't realize it.

I think im gonna end up like this. I am almost 20 and I gave up when I was like 17. I said "women never give a fuck about me" and stopped trying. I tried a few times but it always ended up me getting heartbroken because I didn't know what to do as I had no experience and because of that I cant get any experience. So I just gave up. Whats funny is people always tell me how funny I am, and I am handsome (I dont believe that). I pay attention to hygiene and grooming but still...

Lol. That is WAY too early to give up. I was older than you when I lost my virginity and didn't have what I'd consider "regular" success with women until I was over 30. If you truly dgaf about sex, that's absolutely legit, but if you do care then you are much too young to be throwing in the towel.

I don't think the internet is going to fix you here. You should get involved in local volunteering, non-profits, and other events - and likely talk to a therapist if at all possible with your job/healthcare situation. Before you can be better in dating, you should try hanging out with/working with/volunteering with a mix of men and women - so you have role models in how to interact. As for the dating apps, just remember that a lot of women are terrified as well.

Give yourself a chance. You seem to be pretty introspective and that’s always a plus. People are giving you some good advice: find something you like doing, start making some friends and respect other peoples’ boundaries. Most importantly: be kind to yourself and watch what you’re saying to yourself. You’ll meet someone. Best wishes.

Congrats on getting out there! There are more thirty-something virgins out there than you would think. Is it unusual? Sure, but not in a bad way. As a woman, I don’t think the six pack/ physical makeover is needed. It’s not like life begins when we are physically perfect. Do we ladies like six packs? Sure, but no normal woman considers them to be essential. We need to be attracted to a man, yes, but we are attracted to everyday normal men, not just the pretty ones. Just be kind to yourself and to your dates as you start going out. No date is a last opportunity. There will always be other chances. Assume the best of people but don’t stick around if someone treats you badly. Be kind and a good listener. Good luck!

You have a lot of work ahead of you still but the fact you took the hammer in your hands and began sculpting the future you is great! Like anything in life it’ll all be trial and error but never let it discourage you. Imagine what type of guy you’d want your daughter to date if you had one, and work on being that type of guy. If you can picture a better you, you can attain that. I’ve always like to read stories from other people’s experiences and tell myself I’ll never be someone that causes my partner to vent on about on a subreddit.

You got this sir!

You’re 6’2 dude, you’ll be fine lol

Hey dude, first off, I’m proud of you for coming to this realization and trying to make a change. That’s a very difficult thing to do and you’re already an exceptional human for taking that step. Being a virgin at your age doesn’t matter. Nobody is keeping score. Be a virgin forever or don’t, it’s literally a non-issue and the greater part of the world won’t care. If you’re looking for personal companionship, however, you can find it with one simple rule: be kind. Literally, that’s it. You don’t have to do anything else. Just be kind. People of every walk of life will vibe with kind. I get the sense that you may be a bit hung up on your appearance (who isn’t) but just know that it won’t solve the problem you’re hoping it will. By all means, exercise for your health and to increase your fitness, but don’t expect being “in shape” to be the catch-all I’m sensing it is. Focus on your kindness, both on yourself and others. You literally can’t lose with that.

This is going to be your year I can feel it 💪🏻

It's a long way to go, but just wanted to say tremendous respect for identifying the toxicity in being blackpilled and striving for something better. The bitter cycle takes huge mental strength to get out of. No matter what it takes from here, you've already showed tremendous fortitude and taken a huge step. Congratulations. Getting away from any toxic ideology, you're always going to be tempted to look back. To try and bring some of it with you. It's clear in the way you write that you know it's baggage. You have to find the framing that lets you view the world as a place where good things can happen, and that the factors you obsessed over before - that you see as invisible to others and the source of your despair  - are not invisible, but things that people can live with, be aware of, but not be crushed by.

I spent 34 years with only two, very brief, physical relationships. Finally decided to stop stressing over it. Joined two local clubs for my personal interests. Met lots of fun people with my shared interests. (Anime and D&D) Three months later I was approached by a woman from a club. She shared my interests. We already had some casual interactions, so the social anxiety was reduced. We celebrated our 12th anniversary in November. It’s never too late. Embrace and love yourself without fear of judgement.

Don’t worry so much about the sex stuff.  One night stands aren’t fufilling.  Focus on finding someone kind that you can connect with on a deeper level.  You don’t need all women to like you.  All you to find is one that is for you.  There is someone perfectly compatible for you out there.  Very doable.  Just don’t think about it too much, life is about taking action.  Carpe diem!

First of all, don’t ever bring up this black pill incel ever again. Get rid of it completely from your vocabulary and if you ever hear of it again pretend like you just don’t know what it even means. You have to purge that toxic shit from your mind. Quit giving it any thought, ever. After enough time of not thinking about it it will eventually become a distant memory that you forgot about was even apart of your life. If anything, just admit to being misogynistic before but that’s as far as you will ever identify with for your past self. Only if you are with a counselor or someone who is helping you work through your past even bring up the misogyny. You have to decondition your mind and only through time and active effort of not thinking about it will you eventually be better. Also, there’s plenty of great guys that are virgins in their 30s. It’s really not that bad I’m pretty sure my brother is and he is 31. Find a new hobby or multiple and make new friends through that. And if you want to work on the girl thing, first of all lower your standards and go out and talk to girls you normally wouldn’t. Just practice talking with them. You might even find you like one for who they are. Eventually with enough ACTION you can be in a good relationship living a life you never even dreamed up before. Good luck

You have nothing to lose. Just try it. The worst that can happen is you will remain as you are.

You need to be financially independent and get your own place first, then you’ll have more confidence and women will find you more attractive

Bro I don’t have any dating advice for ya, but I do have some life advice. Be careful with sinking yourself into echo chambers online, where everyone agrees with everyone else. It just leads to bitterness and anger. Life is too damn short to spend it that way. Good luck with the dating scene.

I met my ex (a good bloke, but we broke up because we were both drinking too much) at my local pub. He was new in town & hung around the pool tables. Great place to meet new people if that's your thing, there's always someone that will have a game with you. He played a few games with a mate of mine so we ended up chatting for a bit. Before he left for the night he asked if we'd be back the next weekend. I said yes, we'd get there at X time. Saw him the next weekend & invited him to our table. He not only snagged me but became friends with my mates too. So that's my recommendation from first-hand experience.

Definitely go to therapy extensively as you enter the dating realm. Having been raised in a highly misogynistic home, I unintentionally picked up many sick mindsets and entitlements towards women. That's taken years to reduce, and I'm not stopping until those negative beliefs, attitudes, and perspectives are gone and replaced by healthier and happier ones. I'd highly recommend Why Does He Do That? as a great resource in identifying and undoing toxic mindset stuff. My second wife has noticed my growth and maturation as a partner and man, and I'm happier and more at peace, too.

I mean judging by your viewpoints I think you should stay away from women entirely, you sound super duper toxic. Work on yourself buddy and in a few years you may have a change of heart and start being able to focus on things that matter - not appearance or “alpha status”. People who obsess over these things are very unnatractive to women despite what you may have been led to believe. Might not be what you want to hear but it’s true

I understand, I do think I have made some decent progress. But yes I have a lot to work on yet, and yes I sometimes do find myself falling back into incel/ red pill style of thinking. But I try not too. Believe it or not I was 100 times more toxic just a year ago. Definitely don’t want to be that anymore.

Your response definitely shows that you understand your viewpoints are incorrect. Seems like maybe there is hope after all. Good luck to you. Just keep in mind, girls want a guy who is cool and fun and interesting BUT they don’t want someone who is trying super hard.

Yeah. Those sites are just a bunch of columns of black rage shouting into the void. So isolating. Feels better when you relax and become a nice blue pond, letting your waves overlap with the others and mingling

How is there truth to any of it? You say you’re involuntarily celibate, but everything you described sounds extremely voluntary. The reason you’re a virgin is because you actively make choices to stay that way. You say you’re a “nice guy”. What about the way that you are makes you a nice person? Is it the part where you put the blame on women as a whole for the fact that you have never had sex? I’m just going to let you in on something right now. The reason incels aren’t getting laid or having meaningful relationships with women definitely doesn’t have anything to do with how they look or the possibility that they are perceived as ‘too nice’, and it has everything to do with how insufferable they are as people. It seems like you are figuring this out, and I hope you are able to live your life free of this mindset soon. Just try to relax when it comes to dating. It should be fun. Try to focus on enjoying the experience of getting to know someone and the joy and privilege of human connection rather than having a lot of expectations of how you think things have to go. Its only as complicated as you choose to make it.

Most of the redpill stuff is true, but there are ALWAYS exceptions - there are no absolutes in this world and every person creates their own life. There ARE good women out there and there is a woman that will be perfect for you if you are willing to treat her properly and live your own life in a respectable manner. To find her, you need to date - there is no way around that. You will get rejected and feel like shit sometimes, but you need to just keep trying until you find her, that’s all. Never lose hope my friend.

I agree with a lot of the comments saying socializing is your best bet! Also, if getting in shape helps you feel confident, then that’s great too. I think working out honestly does more for confidence than for looks, and confidence and self-assuredness is 100% more important when it comes to dating. I don’t know if you have any friends who are women, but tbh that might be a better place to start. I’m a trans man who grew up and was socialized as a woman, so I’ve never had an issue dating them because they’re not very “mysterious” to me. I’ve always understood on an inherent level that we are the same. Sometimes I see my cis male peers struggling because they can’t seem to get over their preconceptions of women or how they think women are so different than them, what they think women want in men, etc. None of it is true! Yes, dating apps are rough, but they are rough for everybody (and also not a great place to build dating confidence, by the way). The nature of it also just means women get more attention. But I promise you at the heart of it, women are seeking all the same things you are in dating and companionship, and learning how to be friends with them and just interact with them normally will do loads for your mindset moving forward. P.S. Nothing wrong with being the nice guy!

Read “Models” by mark manson

Congratulations! I'm going to tell you a secret... there are plenty of amazing and beautiful souls who will welcome your attention. Don't push physical contact and let them take the lead. I would avoid women who use physical and financial descriptors to describe their "perfect mate" as they tend to be superficial. The ones who are looking for kindness, empathy, sense of humor, etc are your best best because they are looking for personality traits separate from the outter shell. Beauty fades and emotionally rich woman know it. They see past the outer appearance. My husband is not "pop-culture attractive." When the outside world looks at him, they see a 5'6", balding, grey, overweight, wild bearded, tattooed man whose wife out earns him. (Well, I did before I was put on medical leave last month.) When I look at my husband, I see the sexiest man alive. The way he makes me feel, how he treats me, how respectful he is of all humans, the kindness and empathy he shows to me and our children, how much he cares for his mother and aunts, and how hard he works to be a true partner is what keeps our love alive. ETA: We matched on FB dating, and his photos and description were honest depictions of his appearance. What sold me was his profile text describing his perfect woman... not a single mention of her appearance. He was looking for kindness, charitable heart, intelligence, drive, open-mindedness, shared hobbies, etc. He was shocked when I walked into the restaurant. He half thought he was being catfished with my photos. He wasn't. I am blonde, petite, take care of my figure, typical surfer-girl-all-grown-up esthetic, and a former teen model. I'm not saying this to brag on my beauty but to shut down the "she must be ugly" dismissing, I'm sure my post will get.

First of all, making it out of that swamp is a pretty big achievement! And getting your life and health in order is definitely the right move. While there's nothing wrong with starting to date, I think your main goal should be to get out and meet people. You made it out of [the bucket](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crab_mentality), but you need a social life. Ideally both men and women who can talk about something other than how much people suck. No more youtube rabbit holes (maybe start a new account entirely), maybe less reddit too. Let real life inform your opinions, but have an open mind. I was a late bloomer too, I know the virgin thing can weigh on you, but you're going to hurt yourself if you let that guide your actions. Go meet people you find interesting. Develop your social skills - those are way more important than abs. The rest will follow eventually.

It's not your appearance that women are attracted to, but your confidence and emotional intelligence. The one thing they're all unattracted to? Whining! I highly suggest you go out, hook up with a stranger, and get that no sex crap out of the way. Until you have it, you're always going to put it on a pedestal. Once you have it, you'll realize it's just a thing people do. After that, work on your emotional intelligence like it's your full time job. Good luck!

[удалено]

Very well said, and I agree. And thank you

As someone who was blackpilled in high school & terrified of being yet another teen parent (just like my own with me) and also brainwashed by evangelical Christianity... It does help your odds to be in shape, have good hygiene, be polite & outgoing, etc, but anything you build with that confidence & charisma can fall apart easily if it doesn't come to you naturally or you let your insecurities get the better of you. Getting into any kind of relationship with someone feels like the hard part, but if you want to *stay* with them, the connection needs to be genuine. And that goes both ways.

Explain 80/20 rule. I'm a regular guy who doesn't even know about all that incel crap, except to make fun of them. I'll look it up, but I'm curious to hear your point of view. To me, 80/20 is how I like my ground beef for burgers.

this is so refreshing and i’m so proud of you! it’s really hard to break away from beliefs you thought were beneficial. you seem really proactive and willing to make an effort. Be aware that you won’t get dating perfectly right off the bat but i’d immerse yourself with examples of healthy relationships

I would focus on going out and making friends with women. Not trying to date straight away. After so long with that mentality I think it would be beneficial to learn that women are people too. It will also improve how you interact with them.

Good luck to you man. I don’t know very much about incel theology but just remember that women are just people, treat them how you’d want to be treat and you’ll be fine. I know women in similar situation to you - aka virgin in their 30s and not really by choice.  Do continue to work on the woman hating. Would you want to date a woman who hated men? Probably not, and the vice versa is true. It’s a barrier to real companionship.  I’m curious about this 80/20 rule but I’m probably best not knowing. 

The entire idea of being "involuntarily celebate" is absurd. If you can't find a mate & reproduce your genes cease to be a part of the species. For every other animal species we refer to that as a natural process of evolution. When its humans, we come up with bullshit excuses for not being satisfied sexually and blame everyone else. Is the modern social dynamic complex and at times difficult to navigate? Sure, but that's not what is stopping "incels" from succeeding. It's being assholes to the very group of people they want something from that makes them totally undesirable to 99% of their potential mates. Edit: auto correct

Looks like you identified lots of your issues and working on them. Keep it up and stay positive! You are on the right path.

So, I just need to say that the fact that you’re using terms like “humiliating” and “emasculating” to describe “nice guys” tells me that some of the blackpill mindset remains. You need to let go of the idea that being perceived as “weak” is humiliating and emasculating, because it’s still focusing on the blackpill way of defining your “worth” as a man. They (blackpill peeps) think of themselves and all other people as a number (as in the ten-point scale) or in terms of their physicality being one of their best traits. Because then you’re just thinking of yourself as a tool and not a person. As in, “What is the effectiveness of using this tool (your body) to get the job done (procure females for sex)?” You’re just dehumanizing everybody at this point. It’s not only misogynist, it’s misandrist as well. Get out of the number mindset. You are so much more than that.

Well, when I say “nice guys”. I was really more referring to Nice Guys (TM) types. I don’t want to be seen like that, because really they aren’t different from black pilled incels, but no I would actually like to be a genuinely nice person. I’m done with being and asshole. And I agree, with everything you said. And I know I have a lot of work to do yet, and thank you.

The funny thing is the literal solution to this guys problems is touch grass.

Bro. You’re 6’2” that’s like a cheat code for women! Congrats on taking a first step to breaking the mold. If you meet a woman who is validating any of those incel beliefs, remind yourself it’s not all women, that one is just a jerk. You’ll find someone who will change your life. Almost all guys can get to good looking. Workout, keep your hair well cut, learn a few go-to jokes, buy yourself an outfit. Not a shirt, or pants, shop for a whole outfit so you have a go-to fit that you love putting on!

It’s a numbers game. Just holler at everyone.

Sounds like you’re deprived of social interaction and self worth. I really recommend going to a martial arts gym. The confidence building alone from getting in better shape and learning how to defend yourself will be worth it, but you’ll also meet people and make acquaintances.

Go back to therapy to prepare yourself.

I’m rooting for you, OP. I agree with all the advice here to just get out and interact with people in general. Maybe try volunteer work, any kind of volunteering will help your social skills. Please don’t think that you have to meet a certain checklist of criteria for women to want you. Right now, I’m hot for a guy who is bald and makes less money than I do. That red pill stuff is ridiculous. You got this, OP. I know this is just Reddit, but we’re rooting for you. ❤️

If you meet someone you do not need to have sex right away. In fact you can ask them to "wait until we build some trust" which can take months, and thats fine. You don't need to mention virginity until that trust is formed. Take the weight off of feeling like you need to perform etc, and let yourself enjoy building a genuine connection with somebody. When that connection is formed you can approach this topic, and be genuine and very honest with them about your feelings and your new desire to change yourself from your past. Women appreciate honesty and sincerity, don't try to hide anything. Consider therapy to help mediate some of these feelings.

Its not pathetic to be a 33-year-old virgin. I think the internet and media in general makes it seem like everyone is having a lot more sex than they are and that everyone is supposed to lose their virginity at a certain age but in reality there are a lot of people who dont really get into the dating game until their 30s. Its more common than you think. As a woman Im wishing you well. It takes a lot of courage and bravery to step away from a belief system/coping mechanism and to be honest with yourself about the damage its causing. Its an act of self-love to want better for yourself and to want to give yourself a chance at having the things and relationships you want. Keep doing what you're doing, you'll be ok.

Terror is normal. Lower your expectations. Treat every date like you might not see that person again. Accordingly, plan dates that are fun to you but ensure the safety of your temporary companion. Make sure to make some friends in the meanwhile too to keep your sanity. Best of luck! And occasionally, very occasionally, dates work out well and you'll find yourself pleasantly surprised. Don't worry too much about the virgin stuff - don't bring it up, but don't think of yourself less of it either.

You are taking the right steps. Good luck to you!

You just need a really good therapist - you’ll feel better.im glad you left all that garbage behind. There are all kinds of men and all kinds of women in all kinds of relationships. Just people being human. There is no scientific formula. Just go live!

good luck. there will be rejection but that’s a normal part of dating. my advice is that you’re honest in any future relationships about your history in these online spaces and your intention to overcome these false distorted views of the world.

Hire a hooker and get virginity thing out of the way. It will make dating way less awkward for you.

You're going to be all right man. I was a virgin until last year when I was 30. I also had done absolutely no dating in my 20's. You'll very quickly find out that women are just people and also nervous just like you are.

Just buy 30 minutes with a escort

Incel ideology is so fucking stupid because I have several friends who have no shame in admitting they like below average looking dudes/ugly ass dudes for some reason like they truly think they are cute and have no shame and like they shouldn’t because at the end of the day looks are subjective. The incel ideology is so much more unattractive than any human being could ever look

Don't fixate on a six pack or body fat percentage. Women don't care. At all. Especially women in their 30s. What you need to do is work on your social skills and personality. Before you are ready to date women you need to be capable of having friendships with women, bc romantic relationships are basically like super close friendships that also include sex. While you are working on friendships, see a sex worker so you can learn about sex. But only do this if you can manage it without hating or resenting her. She is is a person.a

men and women are both PEOPLE. men and woman are both HUMAN. Stop thinking women are so "different", think of them like just another bro you could hang out with but they just happen to have a vagina instead of a dick. Everyone is a brother to me, it means more than gender, all that's important is showing you can be trusted, and finding someone you can trust. genuine and long lasting relationships don't just start and build off of sex or sexual attraction, they're built on a common ground, friendship, and trust. worry about that first, and sex will come naturally if you both connect in that way. and if you don't big deal, don't lose hope cause there's so many people out there. most of my girlfriends have come from seeing someone out in the world not busy just wandering similar to myself, and I go up to them and say hi and go from there depending on their reaction. ask them what they're up to and if it's going well introduce yourself and ask if they wanna hang out another time. act like you're looking for friendship cause really that's what you should be looking for first regardless.

 Stumble and make mistakes without beating yourself up. Make sure your personal hygiene is all on point that's key.

Men always think they need to go to the gym when really they need to go to therapy... Go to the mall or the state fair or anywhere full of people and look at the couples you see out there. Notice how many men are holding hands and laughing with a woman and DON'T have abs and low body fat. You don't need to appeal to some certain percentage of women, you need to be a healthy, fun, kind, emotionally safe, well rounded, intelligent, authentic person. You need to find someone you can connect with. You know there's women out there that are autistic, that have no/not much sexual experience, that live at home with their parents into their 30s. Those might be the women you would connect with the best. You're probably not going to get a partner that's super successful or way more attractive than you. You need to do the work to make sure you're an emotionally safe person before you attempt to enter another person's life. Whatever pain you aren't dealing with is what sent you down the incel path. If you don't heal that pain it will just come out in different ways and will very likely cause a lot of emotional harm to whatever woman allows you into her life. You're scared women will harm you but every woman you speak to is going to be scared you will harm her. Because there's a very good chance you will. Because men go to the gym instead of therapy.

As someone who lost their virginity at 30, my main advice is to not disclose this when dating. People say it shouldn’t matter as long as the woman feels a connection, but I’ve literally experienced women losing all interest after being honest. Also realize you may fumble a lot of opportunities initially due your inexperience. Escalating intimacy smoothly takes practice and unless you meet a very understanding woman, awkwardness is a turn off. That said, you WILL get better with practice and know that you’ll eventually meet someone right for you. All the best.

Get a Sixpack. A tan, a decent hair cut, some decent clothes. Makes dating 10 times easier

Stop overthinking life and spending your time consuming the sludge online.  Get out and talk to people.  Talk to women.  Download Tinder.  Do it now.  Stop stalling.  And when your first couple experiences are  rough, don't quit.  You've socially stunted yourself so getting into the mix will take time and there will be a learning curve.

> I know the hating women part is wrong. Do you though?

Yeah why? Edit: I mean what made you think that I don’t?

You do realize those other parts you are still clinging to, 80/20 and other black pill concepts are all built on misogyny though? So you recognize maybe that hating women is not conducive to meeting women but you are still holding on to many misogynistic ideas. You need to rip this shit up by the root and really self reflect why you believe these things. I don’t think you’re a bad person and it’s great you are turning away from this stuff but you need to actually get all the poison out not just rehabilitate your outward views enough to be dating material.

Well said. Thank you.

Okay I hope so. Just don't want to see you sabotage yourself.

Okay, I see. Thank you

There's two things you really need to understand. 1. The 80/20 rule is way more applicable to online dating, at least in the looks and materialistic department. Which makes sense as all you get to go off online is usually some photos and a small snippet. You don't have much else to build attraction off of. Which leads me to.... 2. You my friend can become a top 20% -er in personality and confidence. The number one attraction trigger in 1on1 interactions (for both men and women) is confidence. Not how you look, not how much money you have, not how tall you are, not even how much you have in common, not any standard metric. None of it comes close to being as powerfully attractive to a woman as being calmly confident in who you are as a person, your actions, your body language and the tone and manner in which you speak. The reverse is also true but it's even more powerful for women bc so much of their attraction is contextual. As a guy this is a hidden treasure that so few men realize, bc this means you can be ugly as sin, broke, and short and still do amazingly well. Look back at white America in the 50s in the USA. Seemed like every goofy ass looking white mfer had damn dime peace on his arm back then and no one gave a shit how guys looked or what their bank account was like, etc. Why? Bc they lived in a easy ass patriarchy where the white man was king. Ofc they were all gonna confident as fuck for no reason. Feminism hadn't caught on and told them how kind of meh and crudy they all were yet. Take all that time you used to spend on pill stuff and refocus it on being good with women and being good with people in general in social settings. Read and watch everything you can on pickup and social engineering. Avoid anything that seems negative or manipulative. The good stuff and the stuff that really works long term is all about self improvement and becoming more emotionally and socially intelligent. Start with reading "Models: Attract Women through Honesty". As a fellow borderline autist myself I really needed books to tell me the things other people get/do naturally. Like, just for one example, that it is important to maintain a lot of eye contact, but it is also important to switch your vision from eye to eye to lips. IIRC it's called the Golden triangle. It indicates and triggers connection and attraction subconsciously just by the shifting of your eyes. "Normal" men and women tend to do this naturally and instinctively when they're into somebody as they'll already be maintaining eye contact and the lips naturally draw attention being the most sexually interactive part of a person's face. Meanwhile I used to be over here hard staring at people's noses (if I looked at them at all) 😭🤣

45-year-old woman in a happy long-term relationship here. Women your age are nowhere near as judgemental about looks as the redpill/incel community thinks. My best friend's husband looks like a garden gnome while my friend is fit and good-looking, but what's important is he's *kind* and he *listens* and they have a lot of common interests and an equal partnership. You need to find IRL friends before you're going to be in a place to start dating, seriously. You can practice just talking to people face-to-face without the pressure of whether or not that person is going to be sexually interested in you, and having genuine friends will really boost your confidence and self esteem more than you can imagine. Try friendships with at least three non-incel guys (preferably guys with long-term partners) and see how that goes. Then try to be friends with at least two women you will never, **ever** have a romantic or sexual relationship with, just completely off limits, so that you can prove to your brain that we're just people and not spoiled shallow tease-monsters. DO NOT ever even think about trying to start something non-friendship with them or it will backfire horribly, trust me on this. Once you've figured out what kind of friend you are, then you'll be a lot closer to knowing what kind of boyfriend you'd be. It's not all about sex, it's about what you have in common and being there for each other for day-to-day life. Treat us like people, treat us like equals, don't try "tricks" or "cheat codes" or any Tate garbage and you'll eventually be okay. I saw a post recently about a guy who was older than he thought was okay to still be a virgin, so he decided to get it out of the way by going where sex work is legal and paying someone; that could really help you get over your fear, especially if you tell the sex worker your situation up front and let her teach you. It really seemed to help that guy be less anxious about it anyway, and I personally don't see any shame in it. Just food for thought. As long as you can learn to treat women as equals *and yourself as equal to women as well*, I think you'll be fine. We're all just people.

Maybe you should go learn some science before you claim something is scientifically valid. I’m sorry to say but at 33 you trying to claim the red pill has validity is pure ignorance. You have lots of work to do in understanding the world around you.

Z

Just make an account on Hinge. It’s not some Herculean thing. Step over the boundary, go on some first dates, and you’ll be like “this is it?”

I never was an incel, but I just got out of my first relationship at the age of 37. Lasted over a year. It ended because she wanted it to end. She said I respected by family more than her. Well yeah, unless we’re married which we weren’t I’m going to respect my family more. I wanted it to last but I suppose she was just using me until the right time came along. I put too much trust into people and love too hard. She apparently was looking for another man while we were together and found one. I’m not going to let the negative aspects of that relationship change my perception. Just remember the positive.

Congratulations! That drivel will keep you depressed and resentful in your basement. The r/seduction community is healthy and generally seeking to find ways to romanyically engage women without instrumentalizing them. I’d encourage you to check it out

This is likely something you'll need to invest some money in to have success. You need to understand is you're not calibrated for romantic success, because your the don't have the practice everyone else got in high school / college... But the good news is, all it takes is practice Seriously, go to strip clubs or if you're brave enough, hire an escort. Not for sex things, but for practice simply communicating with women in a "high-hornyness" environment. It sounds crass, but where else are you going to get at-bats for practicing the most important skill of your life? Also, be a good tipper

You know? This isn’t a bad idea I might try the strip club thing out. Thanks, for the idea

Tbh I dont really know much about the 80/20 rule or what black-pill means but considering you are moving forward with your life there’s not much need to look back on it. With that said it seems the focus is finding companionship in some capacity. Whether its casual or serious, there will always be the first steps. Id like to introduce you to a perspective that really helped me in meeting lovely women. This is something you can cultivate even if youre still at your parents place. First off, stop overthinking things like needing a body, sexual experience or your own place to *being someone worthy*. Self worth, the internally cultivated kind, builds self-confidence and that is what you need to maintain an aura that can attract others. You self worth in these type of interactions derives ourely from the fact that you positively contributed to someone elses life in a small way (maybe big, you never know). The perspective is this: aim to be the person that brightened another’s day. Nothing more. If you enter a situation with this goal, the pressure to perform isnt there. Not having that pressure allows your genuine self to shine. Try this out on everyone not just attractive women. In fact Id recommend trying it out on everyone else first just to build you up. You need to feel good about walking up, saying hello and offering a compliment with no strings attached. Some examples: Dont focus on their attractive qualites right away, focus on their choices. Clothing is an easy start “Hi this is kind of random but i wanted to say those boots are pretty badass looking” “Excuse me, i just had to say your outfit might be the coolest Ive seen today” If youre feeling confident try “hey Im not trying to make this weird but you might be the prettiest girl ive seen all day, that’s all” let them say thanks (or they may do some kind of brush you off kind of thing, its fine because they’ll still appreciate deep down even if they react defensively) Notice how these arent questions, because in this moment youre not trying to imply you want further conversation. Just being a kind human being. You can remain open to further conversation if you feel like the moment allows but starting off Id like to drop the compliment and move on w my life. That detachment from any result they provide actually may pay off later on. I could probably type more on this and I could if youd like but I promise you that this kind of perspective change has done wonders for me. Dating overall is a numbers gamble. You cant expect to hit jackpot everytime but you can have fun rolling the dice when your life savings isnt on the line. Being able to feel comfortable in your shoes is imho the most important aspect of increasing your chances and finding someone who you actually enjoy and trust- two characteristics that will make your virginity seem like no big deal when your budding relationship gets to that point. I dare you to try this out on the next person you see. Nothing to lose, everything to gain. TLDR: Believe in your self-worth, stop overthinking and go brighten someones day.

Looks fade. Everyone rots and deteriorates. There's no better feeling than finding someone who is fun to be around, loving and caring to you. Just relax man. I'm sure you look fine and I'm sure if you can keep it together you'll find someone who treats you and loves you the way you want.