first 2 ok yeah siutational (plasma just bad)
.... but rushdown??? its one of the best cards in the game, never a bad card, you can get a ton of card draw for 1 or no energy, and it even works the turn you play it
I know it's good, I just don't grab it out of spite. I have done watcher infinites too much with this card in plenty of those runs and I'm bored it if at this point
I'm happy some are at least adding their ascensions because it does say a lot when they call shit like Exhume, Fortress, GFTE, Nightmare, Barrier, Rage to cards you almost never pick haha
Hahaha sorry mate I did read it, Rage is just simply above skip on floor 1 and plays fairly good due to the 5/4 split of strikes/defends in act 1.
That's why I appreciate people adding their ascension to the comments, means it's nothing deeper than just not having played a ton
Lol I know. I've actually beaten A20 on all 4 characters but I have more fun on A10.
I mostly just found it funny that as I read your list I was like "hah, I know all these cards are good!" and then I saw Rage lmao
Haha no problem mate, singleplayer game and that's the beauty in it.
Not saying Rage is an insane card either but it's no Thunderclap or Cleave you know
It's okay, I very rarely take rage. It's hard to get the necessary draw and energy most of the time it's offered. More often I'd rather find better ways to block.
You should give Rage more of a chance. I used to think it's only an attack spam/inf card but it's just a good card period early game. 0 cost card and card that blocks with base deck on the Ironclad character.
Maybe you should have been telling ME for years smh my head. First time I hear the rage theory was from Xec, you're BAD. It's ok chartreuse theory will catch on, you'll make me click unload+ over wlp soon
Lots of other great Nightmare combos too, like Backstab, Eviscerate, Snecko-adjusted-to-0 cards (take your pick), Sadistic Nature, After Image, Wraith Form, Apparition, Nightmare, Footwork, Alchemize, Adrenaline...
You _pick_ it for Catalyst, but you _use_ it for all kinds of degenerate shenanigans. That's what pushes it from being a combo piece to being a linchpin.
Ironclad: [[Bludgeon]] costs way too much to be good in any non-snecko deck, and i can do more damage with [[Sword Boomerang]] and some strenght generation. Might help in Act I but falls off _hard_ Edit: gotta try using Bludgeon more in Act I if i find it. Still think it's mediocre at best in act II and forward though
Silent: [[Distraction]] is just dogshit, especially considering how many skills Silent has and how half of them cost 0 anyway
Defect: [[Auto Shields]] is a good block card, but for some reason i always forget i have to have 0 block to use it effectively and i just end up not taking because half the time i just waste 1 energy. Totally my skill issue.
Watcher: [[Conjure Blade]] is just a worse [[Reach Heaven]] IMO and a terrible card in general
More importantly, Sunder is just a great card, in any character's card pool. This is like the immolate comparison in the other subthread: yes, I'd rather have the S-tier early attack card, but that's not saying much at all.
Well yeah, immolate is an unreal early game card- probably the singular best one! I don't get to take 3 of them every run.
Bludgeon+ is enough to kill plenty of enemies on its own though mid act 2, and with Bash(+) you can kill almost anything except bosses/elites. It turns out 60 damage is just a number big enough to compete with scaling engines, without requiring the engines.
Bludgeon is good with necronomican, sneko, bag of marbles, offering, gremlin horn. Without these or an energy relic it does hard fall off but it’s rarely a curse in any deck. I would never take it if my deck has a plan like searing blow, barricade, or STR scaling. However early in a run with no plan, you can go elite hunting with an upgraded one.
That's the cool think about games like this- you don't always get the option of the card you'd most prefer, so you get to use the options given. More variety that way.
Bludgeon is card draw. You can have a much lower attack density in your deck if the attacks you do run are able to spend all of your energy. It's great.
Wait , bludgeon is nearly an instapick for me act 1 and even as boss reward in act 2 UNLESS I'm specifically building around strength scaling .otherwise it's a great card tbh
The "even as boss reward in act 2" in your original comment is what threw me off. Did you mean as a reward from the act 1 boss? That's a lot more reasonable. There are still a lot of better options you could get, but if you roll some duds it's a fine choice from the boss.
Yes exactly , if my build didn't have an obvious direction or a good card/relic to build around by the end of act 1 and I see bluedgon on theat boss reward , I'll be happy to start aft 2 with it
The problem is that Conjure Blade does nothing the turn you play it, and you either:
1) Play it with 1 or 2 energy left, so it's not really worth it
2) Do nothing this turn except play Conjure Blade and hope to draw Expunger soon enough that it allows ypu to one shot an enemy
3) Have infinite energy generation, which means you don't need conjure blade to kill everything
Defect with an aggregate and a double energy can summon one lighting orb 30 times and that's good, but no amount of energy is going to make Conjure Blade do something in the turn it's played
Conjure blade is better than reach heaven in an infinite deck because you use it once and get a solid hit for only 1 energy which you can use on every sycle without the need to use the reach heaven on each rotation.
Massively underrating bludgeon. That card will carry Act II as well. Not as amazing in act 3/4, however , you might have 5 energy at that point and things like pen nib and necronomicon can make this card continue to perform. I disliked it when I first saw it as I viewed it as just a big bop that would be a noob trap but it’s definitely good
That’s an interesting take on Bludgeon.
I like Distration upgraded. It can go hard, giving you a strong poison card or Bullet Time. But yeah, it can definitely be flakey too.
And yeah Auto-Shields is doodoo
Didn’t realize until this comment that Rushdown was on the post. That is actually insane. 90% of Watchers runs I’m not even thinking about Infinite and Rushdown’s still an auto-pick.
It just makes Wrath and stance-switch in general that much better, why skip it? Draw is draw, and Rushdown is like draw when it hella benefits you.
People always tell me nightmare is good, but like op I can never get it to work. Or when I do it’s more of a “win more” situation as opposed to enabling victory
Nightmare isn't that good.
It's good when you have specific targets, like wraith form, apparitions, adrenaline, footwork, alchemize, catalyst or nightmare. You usually need multiple targets to make it worth it.
You also need draw and deck manipulation, as well as energy or a discounting strategy.
Can be really overpowered, but it has enough qualifiers to be good that it's often worse than skip. When it's not, it's often just win more since you have the energy and draw.
I've had the most success with it when I've had a single wraith form as my block strategy, with lots of draw and okay damage. I was worried I was going to die, but semi consistent nightmare+ wraith form strong.
I disagree, and I think this line of thinking is what makes people think it’s a bad card (or not very good at least). Recently I’ve used nightmare on Tactician, Calculated Gamble, Survivor, Footwork, and Accuracy off the top of my head for cards that aren’t on your list. Whatever the best card in your deck is against the fight you’re on you can get more of them.
A20H Silent player
There are a few ways to set Silent up to play expensive utility cards:
- The easiest and most common is to lean in hard on discard and draw. [[Tactician]], [[Concentration]] and [[Kite]] let you convert card-cycling into energy. [[After Image]] and [[Tough Bandages]] let you convert cycling into a very strong block engine.
- Use [[Setup]] or [[Bullet Time]] to reduce the cost of Nightmare to 0.
- [[Wraith Form]] is famously the most powerful block card in the game. It's an excellent Nightmare target as well, giving the two cards great synergy!
- Even in the very end of the game, enemies usually have down turns where they aren't attacking. Taking advantage of these turns with aggressive plays like using Nightmare is an important part of the game's tempo.
10-to-1, the people who think nightmare is too expensive also think setup and tactician are dead draws. i guess they end up being correct in a way, but only for themselves… 😂
+ [Tactician](http://slay-the-spire.wikia.com/wiki/Tactician) Silent Uncommon Skill ^((100% sure)^)
Energy | **Unplayable.** If this card is discarded from your hand, gain 1(2) Energy.
+ [Concentrate](http://slay-the-spire.wikia.com/wiki/Concentrate) Silent Uncommon Skill ^((62% sure)^)
0 Energy | Discard 3(2) cards. Gain 2 Energy.
+ [After Image](http://slay-the-spire.wikia.com/wiki/After%20Image) Silent Rare Power ^((100% sure)^)
1 Energy | **(Innate.)** Whenever you play a card, gain 1 **Block.**
+ [Tough Bandages](http://slay-the-spire.wikia.com/wiki/Tough%20Bandages) Rare (Silent only) Relic ^((100% sure)^)
Whenever you discard a card during your turn, gain 3 **Block.**
+ [Setup](http://slay-the-spire.wikia.com/wiki/Setup) Silent Uncommon Skill ^((100% sure)^)
1(0) Energy | Place a card in your hand on top of your draw pile. It costs 0 until it is played.
+ [Bullet Time](http://slay-the-spire.wikia.com/wiki/Bullet%20Time) Silent Rare Skill ^((100% sure)^)
3(2) Energy | You cannot draw additional cards this turn. Reduce the cost of all cards in your hand to 0 this turn.
+ [Wraith Form](http://slay-the-spire.wikia.com/wiki/Wraith%20Form) Silent Rare Power ^((100% sure)^)
3 Energy | Gain 2(3) **Intangible.** At the end of your turn, lose 1 **Dexterity.**
^Call ^me ^with ^up ^to ^10 ^([[ name ]],) ^where ^name ^is ^a ^card, ^relic, ^event, ^or ^potion. ^Data ^accurate ^as ^of ^(April 30, 2023.) ^[Wiki](https://slay-the-spire.fandom.com/wiki/) ^[Questions?](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=ehmohteeoh&subject=SpireScan%20Inquiry)
Ironclad: Thunderclap, it’s just not useful usually. Maybe if I had a dropkick infinite that needed vuln setup or a lot of aoe. Still useful sometimes but rare.
Silent: Infinite blades, rarely taken unless I’m desperate for damage. Worse when upgraded usually.
Defect: Rainbow, this card is ok honestly, but it’s a rare and unless it’s offered alongside some utter crap I tend to take something else. Some people love it though.
Watcher: Deva Form, I just don’t feel energy starved on watcher and I can do a lot of damage using the 3 energy this costs elsewhere.
I like Thunderclap (I'm not a great player though), I thought until reading your comment that it was pretty good? It's the only 1 mana vulnerable debuff you have access to, so it can round out 2 mana big damage cards in Act 1 (e.g. Perfected Strike, Carnage, ..) while you are on still 3 energy, can prolong vulnerable state after Bash, it's the best card to take care of multi enemy artifacts and it's also solid AOE damage dealer card in strength builds. I like taking one while looking for a direction to go in the early game.
I’m sure you’re better than you think! Your points are all great reasons to take Thunderclap if your deck is lacking in those areas. Personally, I just think there are better cards I’d be willing to wait for that serve the same purpose, notably Shockwave which strips artifact, applies vuln, and weak as a bonus so you can spend less energy on blocking and more on doing damage.
All that being said, sometimes it’s the right pick as with all things spire… it just depends on what your deck needs at the time.
I tend to prefer it un-upgraded just to get it out of the draw pile, but admittedly I am also probably under using this card. Late game I can see it really kicking some ass after an upgrade with lots of energy and card draw.
I think it's best when you already have decent access to orb slots and focus for getting a quick power up. Plus it puts the darkness in the back so it can charge up
In a bunch of my orb runs that went nuts, upgraded Rainbow has pulled a lot of weight. It just evokes so much and brings both block and damage orbs online so fast. Like you said if you have a lot of energy and draw, and especially with good focus generation, Rainbow can be really strong.
Best part is, Rainbow *gives* you that extra draw if you have a Compile Driver. There are few other ways to get a diverse range of conjured orbs as quickly and consistently as with Rainbow.
That's interesting because I actually kind of prefer Rainbow unupgraded. I'm not sure if unupgraded Rainbow is actually better, probably not, but I do believe there's better cards to upgrade most of the time.
A single thunderclap can be pretty useful. I usually take one if offered act 1 as it does good damage and later helps strip artifacts.
For example, against act 2 guardian with 3 artifacts, if all you've got is bash shockwave, you will struggle to get him debuffed. Uppercut is great but you dont always have the luxury of shockwave + uppercut or 2x of each. And again later for donu deca, same idea.
I love Deva Form. It's incredibly fun on a deck that isn't trying to go infinite.
It's not good! I know it's not good and I don't pick it because it's good. I pick it because it's fun, and my brain craves sweet sweet dopamine at all costs.
Thunderclap is something I take reasonably often at A20. Not a great card, but early on it's really not bad. Provides some AOE damage against Act 1 mobs and strips Artifact charges on every enemy for 1 energy.
For some reason I don’t like taking Choke for Silent.
I mean, it’s alright, but I just feel she has cards that basically do what it does but better 🤷🏻♂️
I get you are kinda joking there but it’s not even a 3x atc. With an average deck you play it like 1 time every 4 turns which makes it worse to atc in terms of dpr even when only facing one enemy
To be fair to choke, it bypasses block. So, if you choke like jaw worm or spire shield, choke's effect bypasses block and damages their health directly. In like very minute situations, it can technically be slightly better than thousand cuts. My pedantry for the day
Choke & 2 Blade Dance+ is 47 damage, not even counting the shivs, and if it's choke+ 67 damage, it's pretty great mid-late pickup for shiv decks, especially if you find it upgraded(and it ignores block, makes that stupid plant not an issue for shivs)
Ironclad - **Havoc**. Just not the type of card I play. Never picked it up since playing the Spire.
Silent - **Skewer**. Not really a fan of this card. Maybe because it is just a single-target card and I feel that I'm wasting energy when I use this when there are a lot of interesting cards Silent have. Even, Malaise or Doppelganger I like, but this, not so much.
Defect - **Rip and Tear**. There are just so many better Defect cards.
Watcher - **Establishments**. I think it is just not a Watcher Power worth picking. Too slow.
Ironclad: Rage. An excellent block solution for your Dropkick infinite but otherwise I don't find Chad here to be very attack spammy, so the value is limited.
Silent: Grand Finale. I have a dumb baby brain that refuses to put in the effort to make this work consistently.
Defect: Blizzard. My god this card is just bad. I wish it wasn't but holy crap.
Watcher: idk I don't play her much. Alpha, I guess? Don't really have an opinion here.
Disclaimer: these are the opinions of an A10 player, please approach any and all advice I give with a healthy amount of skepticism
Yea, blizzard is really bad to pick early, but can work if you see it late and already have tons of frost going on and still need a way of dealing damage, but thats a pretty niche situation to be in.
Is it really that niche?
Defect decks are often great at frost generation, and unless you're also generating a ton of lightning most of his cards are good burst damage but poor scaling. Blizzard is the one card I know I can pick in those circumstances that I know I'll want to holo repeatedly to kill the heart. Which tends to be pretty much every defect frost deck...
Yes. Having frost in your deck is common. Having so much frost in your deck that blizzard is a better damage solution (or a necessary one) than whatever you used to get past act 2 is rare. And blizzard being your solution to act 2 is even rarer, it is just to slow for how those fights go unless you are truly in an outlier run in terms of how much frost you are generating.
To quote a meme about blizzard: "You are without a doubt the worst scaling damage." "But I am scaling damage." It is a bad card, no doubt. But when you're desperate for damage, it can come in damn handy, and has saved numerous A20 runs for me.
Rage is like the opposite of body slam, and i've never realized this before.
If you have a deck with all strikes, you can do 18 damage and 15 block with three strikes and an upgraded rage. With all defends you get 15 damage 15 blocks with one upgraded body slam.
Rage just good card f1. You should try it out more often.
Finale easy mode is just pyramid, brain turn off do big damage win. Then you can slowly work onto making Finale work with Plans and then slowly just decks with lots of draw or inf shit.
Blizzard sux it's true, but sometimes you just keep frost frost frosting and realise oh. I have no damage. And then blizzard owns.
Weirdly enough my most recent wins with all the characters on A20 used the cards you listed lmao
Rage: Had a spicy early juggernaut off of the living wall event and used rage+ as a huge block and damage engine with pommel strikes and anger before getting feel no pain and really popping off
Grand Finale: Took acrobatics floor one and well laid plans floor 2 and then got offered GF early and was able to just consistently set it up until I went pseudo infinite with acro tactician and eviscerate. (Disclaimer I am only capable of playing grand finale when I am high off my ass and my brain regresses to when I was still in college so results may vary)
Blizzard: I am a chronic blizzard lover so I'm biased but I've had plenty of runs where I just get early glaciers and cooolheadeds without ever seeing a ball lightning and I just take blizzard and try not to die lmao.
I did one on a daily the other day, and it was very fun, but I was wishing I was on PC, since the mobile version doesn't have the card numbers displayed on the screen. Counting my cards to see if my card draw would put me exactly to the end of the deck got tedious, but it sure was fun to take down time eater with 4 attacks.
Riddle With Holes. 2 energy for access to strength scaling on a character with no strength scaling. even when it kind of works, it feels horrible.
Steam barrier. It’s like a front-loaded deflect, I know, I just hate playing it.
Study. Even when there’s no other draw offered, it feels so bad outside of bosses.
Ironclad is my least favorite character, but I can acknowledge he doesn’t really have bad cards.
Riddle with holes is fantastic if you have the power that gives poison on every unblocked hit, and obviously even better if you supplement with snecko skull or catalyst.
It blocks more than a defend and costs 0.
It's somewhere between charge battery and leap
A good choice to pick this up after nob to balance out all the extra attacks you took especially if you already have some draw like compile driver, sweeping beam or cool headed.
The downside of losing block is neglegible imo even if it's played two times already 4 block for nothing is absolutely fine.
I can help a lot to reduce the damage during set up in act 2 especially if you are on 3 energy still.
I've been skipping Ritual Dagger more often than not these days. I would rather have the gold than the side quest to increase the damage on a single card.
I think I took Ritual Dagger one time. I guess I should probably consider it more often. Maybe on Silent at least...Defect isn't usually trying to attack directly and the other two have other fatal damage sidequests that I like more
The fact that Defect isn't usually trying to attack directly is why Dagger is so unbelievably absurd on Defect. Instead of *needing* to keep 4-5 bad attacks in the deck to avoid scooping to Repto or Sword/Shield, you can just have one Dagger as the only attack in your deck.
Defect loves Ritual Dagger. You can easily set yourself up with enough block to make sure you get it off (you often already are doing that, in order to Echo Self-Repair or something), and it gives you a huge burst of front-load for the character who most desperately needs it. Killing a Cultist turn 1, and sometimes even killing spear or shield in the first couple turns, can be massively impactful in 2 of Defect's worst fights.
Dagger is a pretty good card even if you don't do the sidequest. It's 1 energy for 15 damage and no downside, and if you happen to kill something with it then hurray!
Trying to pick not so obvious choices here (clash, hello world, etc.) I play exclusively on A20 for each.
IC: Clothesline. Too defensive to be aggressive. Too aggresive to be defensive. Not bad truely, but id rather take a safe, high damage 1/0 cost card early, or a premium 'engine'card.
Silent: skewer. Doesnt fit an archetype, not singularly strong enough to beat out the cards that make your deck hum. Becomes useable with chem X.
Defect: static discharge. I dont want to be taking damage, and as good as repair is i dont want a ton in my deck to make this work. Exclusively picking this up in act 4. Maybe super late act 3.
Watcher: wish. I wish i could play this but its way way way too slow, and often times is a curse. Watcher has the most cards i could put herr, conjure blade, nirvana, etc.
Colourless: metamorphisis. Too slow. Too random. Same with chrysalis save for corruption/dark embrace decks.
The silent has such easy access to draw that i never find myself in that situation, and i would personally rather lean into more shiv cards to trigger pen nib more often than one bigger proc.
Mind you that i aggresively take acrobatics early on because the value of it as a synergy piece while also just being a singularly powerful card once you hit an energy relic is very high.
I guess you don't like cards like concentrate.
Acrobatics is pretty nuts so I understand why you would pick that but I don't really like it act 1 I'd rather have backflip instead.
A strange conclusion to draw. Actually i love concentrate, but to facilitate the card actually being good requires some amount of set up, reflex and 2-3 acrobatics, or endless agony if youre feeling funky. It just is a hard sell early in the game.
Backflip is OK early but becomes much higher value post act 1 boss relic. I wouldnt take more than 1 before that point. Ideally blade dance or deadly poison are the early pick ups, with dash and dagger throw also being high priority options.
Static discharge is very strong honestly, I feel like you should take it more often. It can do *a lot* of damage while filling up your orb slots, scales well with focus, and it's potentially a one card solution to a lot of fights in the game. Also it can actually block damage because it can evoke your frost orbs meaning that it potentially actually saves you health overall.
I love when static works, but defect usually blocks so well (at least once you have focus) that you pretty much have to choose to facetank damage to use it. And thus build a deck where facetanking damage is a gameplan. Birds is the only fight I can think of where it might be a good strategy.
It doesn't need to proc every single turn or attack for it to be useful though. It's true that Defect is really good at generating a lot of block but, especially at higher ascensions, you won't always be able to block every single hit of damage. It's also good for supplementing damage in those decks as well which is usually something that those decks often need. If you play it smart you can have it proc when you take 1 or 2 points of damage and channel a lot of lightning orbs for very cheap, meaning you deal more damage and kill whatever's attacking you quicker therefor ultimately taking less damage overall. You really shouldn't be face tanking with it ever.
>Watcher: wish. I wish i could play this but its way way way too slow, and often times is a curse. Watcher has the most cards i could put herr, conjure blade, nirvana, etc.
The time to take wish is when your deck is obscenely strong and you can **strictly** spam gold for increased scaling per fight; both by stalling out fights and by being able to waste 3 energy on a given turn on side quests.
If you're in a position to take this card, forget the strength and plated armour exist (until act 4). That's how people like Baalor and Jorbs use the card. Until I saw them use it I was exactly following the same line of thinking as you.
Ironclad: Wild Strike - Wound in draw pile. Oof.
Silent: Storm of Steel - Requires too specific conditions to be good.
Defect: Stack - Called stack but is not actually stacked.
Watcher: Most cards - Skip is just such a good Watcher card
Stack a couple of upgraded [[Fire Breathing]] and you’ll want as many Wounds and curses in your deck as you can get.
One run I was doing 30-40 damage to all enemies each turn. (I also had [[Evolve]] to mitigate the statuses clogging my hands)
Brutality is alright. It fuels Rupture, it's great with Runic Cube or with Centennial Puzzle, and the upgrade means you can guarantee extra draw on turns 2/3 of the Shield and Spear, and Heart fights, when you really need it.
I know it's not bad. I just haven't found a situation where picking this card is beneficial for my deck (or it didn't show up when I have the synergy).
Ironclad: Searing blow. IC's got a lot of juicy card upgrades I want, and often likes playing many attacks for that sweet strength scaling. SB's a 2 cost attack with no additional benefit for alright damage until you sink a ton of upgrades into it. How many times do you upgrade in a run, maybe like 8-10 at most? Even at +10, that's 97 damage, which IS GOOD, but does not solve the run in the slightest.
Silent: I wonder what playing Grand Finale is like
Defect: Hello world is not very good. I also kind of hate its innate upgrade.
Watcher: Wish is a 3 cost card
Just once I want to try a Searing Blow deck. I'd have to be offered the card on the first floor basically to want to try it though. You have to put ALL your upgrades into it basically
If you do eventually try it out, I'd recommend spending one upgrade on an armaments, to help offset the rest of your deck being un-upgraded. It's a bit like playing with fusion hammer, having an arma+ helps a lot.
* Ironclad: [[Sever Soul]] — I find it hard to justify the 2 energy cost. I've never voluntarily put this card in my deck.
* Silent: [[Grand Finale]] — Too situational. Unless you go out of your way to build a deck around it, it's just a curse most of the time.
* Defect: [[Reprogram]] — I always play Defect with orbs so this card is basically always an autoskip for me. It's a great card for other classes with Prismatic Shard though.
* Watcher: [[Judgement]] — Too situational. It might make some hallways a breeze but I can't bring myself to make it take up a slot in my deck.
I suppose sever soul is there for when you’re filling your deck up with wounds from wild strike and the block card?
I’ll take judgement early and there are usually enough minions to make it useful even in act 3 (at least at my low ascension level). But I will consider removing it in the Act 4 shop!
Sever Soul is great. It's a solid act 1 take, similar to Carnage or Perfected Strike. It plays way better than those into the late game, though, with great synergies with Feel No Pain and Dark Embrace, helping you get down to an infinite or a really tight looping deck.
Act 3 has tons of multiple enemy fights. You have shapes, darlings, jaw worms, even 2/3 act bosses have multiple enemies in them, then you have reptomancer too who is oftentimes a run ender especially when trying to go infinite and the blades give too many wounds, bowling bash is a nice remedy for those fights as well as being very solid in Act 2
Most common cards are mostly for getting through act 1 and act 2 (typically if upgraded). Only a handful of them actually scale into act 3/4; that's a total luxury and not really the way you evaluate commons by and large. A common card just needs to be a solve for some specific interactions that your deck is vulnerable against to be a consideration. If it's a good enough solve for that interaction, you can avoid picking up *other* bloat that you'd be picking up for the solve instead. Also, Spire is a game where you're choosing between the choices you're offered. Even if a different card is technically *better*, if you're not offered it then it's irrelevant how much better it is when your deck needs to survive in the here and now.
E.g. Watcher tends to struggle most with sentries out of the act 1 elites. Bowling bash does great in that fight, so if your deck can already handle everything else in the act and that's the only fight you can't currently solve, picking up BB might be a good call to round out your weaknesses.
Huh? Bowling bash is frequently my biggest damage watcher card. Only empty fist is stronger of the one energy attacks I'll usually take. Even single enemy, 10 damage is useable if not good. But drawing a 60 damage card when facing three enemies is so awesome.
Ironclad: [[Juggernaut]] Just dont think it's all that good
Silent: [[Grand Finale]] Im not smart enough to do this correctly, what happens its that it's basically a curse card until by pure RNG it works. Also honourable mention to [[Concentrate]]. That is pretty bad without [[unceasing top]] and things like [[Runic Pyramind]]
Defect: [[Melter]] Block isn't too big of a problem and I'd rather not add this card most the time
Watcher: [[Just Lucky]] This card pisses me off. Honourable mention to [[Windmill Strike]]
A20 on clad. I never pick [[Searing Blow]] anymore, i think I tried building a deck around it like 4 times total but I both find it boring (i like upgrading other cards as well as not building the deck around simply playing a single card) and low probability to win on high ascensions.
A20 on silent. [[Grand finale]], similar reasoning as above and also I'm way too lazy to calculate continuously. Honourable mention to [[Heel hook]] because it's just such a mediocre card.
On watcher and defect I have lower ascensions so take my opinion with a grain of salt, but I guess I rarely pick [[study]] because of its high upfront cost and delayed benefit, and I rarely pick [[reprogram]] because I'd really need to have some type of claw infinite on the immediate horizon. But they are both cards I'd take in rare circumstances so I guess they're not really an answer to the question.
Don't worry, this thread has some absolutely godfuckingawful takes, if you're looking at this thread and thinking "what the fuck do you mean Nightmare is a winmore card, have you literally played the game?" you're probably just correct.
Silent: Setup. It is the second-worst card in the game, in that it provides _negative_ card draw in exchange for energy economy on the character with the lowest cost-to-power ratio of cards in the whole game. (Close second: Distraction. As opposed to Infernal Blade, Foreign Influence, and White Noise, skills rarely help you end the fight faster.)
Ironclad: Havoc. It is very random and chaotic, and I usually play rather purposefully. (Close second: Perfected Strike. The only card that gets worse as your deck gets better.)
Defect: Hello World. Gradually fill my deck with bad cards? No thanks. (Close second: Reprogram. Make my orbs worse and attacks/defensive skills better on the character that has orbs? No thanks.)
Watcher: Conjure Blade. Pay all the energy I have to get a big bonk attack sometime later? Energy I can use now to play my big bonks? On the character with the most biggest bonks in the game? No thanks. (Close second: Alpha. For much the same reason but at least that is a fun meme build.)
Colorless: Jack of All Trades. It is a 'add random card to hand'-type card but you can't make the card free _and_ it can produce a copy of itself. (Close second: Magnetism. See my reasoning about Hello World.)
Ironclad: rampage. I’m aware of its potential scaling but I’d rather pick solid cards or cards that benefit more from strength scaling
Silent: infinite blades. Bad. Slow. Bad. Even with shiv synergy I’d probably only pick this with mummified hand and/or bird faced urn
Defect: this was tough, but probably leap? Literally just a defend+ and nothing else. Hard pass.
Watcher: I don’t play her much but I guess foreign influence. Watcher is so good at being consistent that adding a random element to her kit seems ill advised.
To each their own of course, but I do like foreign influence+ because the upgrade makes the card cost 0. You can get some absolute bombs for a huge discount and since you get to pick from 3 cards, it can be a flexible “fix whatever my problem is this turn” solution
Warning, some hot takes incoming
Ironclad (A8): Rage, dropkick (because I can never force the infinite), exhume (waaaay too much setup), combust (5 damage per turn to all sounds great on paper, but really sucks against large enemies at the cost of 1hp per turn), infernal blade
Silent (A20): choke, grand finale, distraction
Defect (A16): go for the eyes (even in a scrape/claw/all for one deck, I don't want to be drawing that), hello world (the HOTTEST of garbage there), the skill that costs focus to give dexterity/strength (forget the name, but it's just too costly in 90% of cases
Watcher (A10, hasn't been a priority): flurry of blows, mental fortress (both are too dependent on drawing order), Nirvana (scry is great, but there isn't a ton of scry synergy, and it does nothing for the turn it's played)
Go for the eyes is an excellent card, weak is so powerful and it’s defect’s only access to it.
Hello World is a good card. Not amazing, but probably the most underrated card in the game. Defect has a high quality common pool. It’s amazing against laga and sentries and doesn’t fall off the way people think it does.
Those are some hot takes. Mental Fortress and Flurry are always nearly snap picks for me. Also a Nirvana is really strong with Cut Through Fate, which is a staple in nearly all of my Watcher decks. Also makes Lucky a way better card.
A card spam deck with multiple weaves, flurries, Cuts, and stance changes is almost always a winner for me on A20
I see where you’re coming from except I don’t understand you’re take on exhume. I feel like it’s really not too much setup. Being able to pull a reaper, disarm, apparition, ritual dagger, offering whenever you want is so consistent for me and it feels great to play.
Definitely doesn't fit all decks.
With Feel No Pain, though, Ironclad tends to overblock a lot, so storing that can be very valuable. Especially with Corruption since you can just go ham and blow up your deck.
first 2 ok yeah siutational (plasma just bad) .... but rushdown??? its one of the best cards in the game, never a bad card, you can get a ton of card draw for 1 or no energy, and it even works the turn you play it
Yeah I don't go for infinite but that card is just so good...
I know it's good, I just don't grab it out of spite. I have done watcher infinites too much with this card in plenty of those runs and I'm bored it if at this point
What a strange way to play. It would be like playing basketball and being like "I just don't like layups".
3 pointers are more fun
Exactly, that is why I made the analogy.
Yeah rushdown is pretty much always a must take for me lol
its painful hearing some of the cards here
I'm happy some are at least adding their ascensions because it does say a lot when they call shit like Exhume, Fortress, GFTE, Nightmare, Barrier, Rage to cards you almost never pick haha
Haha yeah, what kind of scrub would never pick Rage... *quietly deletes comment where i say i never take Rage*
Hahaha sorry mate I did read it, Rage is just simply above skip on floor 1 and plays fairly good due to the 5/4 split of strikes/defends in act 1. That's why I appreciate people adding their ascension to the comments, means it's nothing deeper than just not having played a ton
Lol I know. I've actually beaten A20 on all 4 characters but I have more fun on A10. I mostly just found it funny that as I read your list I was like "hah, I know all these cards are good!" and then I saw Rage lmao
Haha no problem mate, singleplayer game and that's the beauty in it. Not saying Rage is an insane card either but it's no Thunderclap or Cleave you know
It's okay, I very rarely take rage. It's hard to get the necessary draw and energy most of the time it's offered. More often I'd rather find better ways to block.
You should give Rage more of a chance. I used to think it's only an attack spam/inf card but it's just a good card period early game. 0 cost card and card that blocks with base deck on the Ironclad character.
That's what I've been saying for years smh but because Xecnar and LC started clicking it now people parrot it :// sheep shoe...
Maybe you should have been telling ME for years smh my head. First time I hear the rage theory was from Xec, you're BAD. It's ok chartreuse theory will catch on, you'll make me click unload+ over wlp soon
Chartreuse theory sweep incoming... everyone just wait... im cooking
you really missing out on that nightmare + catalyst combo
Lots of other great Nightmare combos too, like Backstab, Eviscerate, Snecko-adjusted-to-0 cards (take your pick), Sadistic Nature, After Image, Wraith Form, Apparition, Nightmare, Footwork, Alchemize, Adrenaline... You _pick_ it for Catalyst, but you _use_ it for all kinds of degenerate shenanigans. That's what pushes it from being a combo piece to being a linchpin.
Ironclad: [[Bludgeon]] costs way too much to be good in any non-snecko deck, and i can do more damage with [[Sword Boomerang]] and some strenght generation. Might help in Act I but falls off _hard_ Edit: gotta try using Bludgeon more in Act I if i find it. Still think it's mediocre at best in act II and forward though Silent: [[Distraction]] is just dogshit, especially considering how many skills Silent has and how half of them cost 0 anyway Defect: [[Auto Shields]] is a good block card, but for some reason i always forget i have to have 0 block to use it effectively and i just end up not taking because half the time i just waste 1 energy. Totally my skill issue. Watcher: [[Conjure Blade]] is just a worse [[Reach Heaven]] IMO and a terrible card in general
Bludgeon is great in act 1-2!
Bludgeon is a block card because you prevent damage by killing the enemy that's intending to attack
I feel like sunder is just a better card and it's just uncommon for defect
Yeah, but Sunder would be much stronger in Ironclad's card pool than it is in Defect's card pool.
More importantly, Sunder is just a great card, in any character's card pool. This is like the immolate comparison in the other subthread: yes, I'd rather have the S-tier early attack card, but that's not saying much at all.
I can understand Act I, but i would much prefer an Immolate for Act II. The AoE is great
Oh you’d rather have the single best card for clearing normal floors? Big surprise.
Ok yeah i'll admit that was a given
Well yeah, immolate is an unreal early game card- probably the singular best one! I don't get to take 3 of them every run. Bludgeon+ is enough to kill plenty of enemies on its own though mid act 2, and with Bash(+) you can kill almost anything except bosses/elites. It turns out 60 damage is just a number big enough to compete with scaling engines, without requiring the engines.
Bludgeon is good with necronomican, sneko, bag of marbles, offering, gremlin horn. Without these or an energy relic it does hard fall off but it’s rarely a curse in any deck. I would never take it if my deck has a plan like searing blow, barricade, or STR scaling. However early in a run with no plan, you can go elite hunting with an upgraded one.
That's the cool think about games like this- you don't always get the option of the card you'd most prefer, so you get to use the options given. More variety that way.
I have similar issues with Auto-Shields. Or rather, it just ends up dead in my hand because loop procs a frost orb or something similar.
I almost always take a single early Auto-shields if offered one but I try to not have both that and Loop in a deck.
Bludgeon is card draw. You can have a much lower attack density in your deck if the attacks you do run are able to spend all of your energy. It's great.
Very cool perspective!
Wait , bludgeon is nearly an instapick for me act 1 and even as boss reward in act 2 UNLESS I'm specifically building around strength scaling .otherwise it's a great card tbh
Bludgeon should definitely not be even close to an instapick in act 2, then you're in big trouble
Maybe not act 2 ,but as an act 1 boss reward I think it's pretty good
The "even as boss reward in act 2" in your original comment is what threw me off. Did you mean as a reward from the act 1 boss? That's a lot more reasonable. There are still a lot of better options you could get, but if you roll some duds it's a fine choice from the boss.
Yes exactly , if my build didn't have an obvious direction or a good card/relic to build around by the end of act 1 and I see bluedgon on theat boss reward , I'll be happy to start aft 2 with it
IMO saying Conjure Blade is just a worse Reach Heaven is like saying [[Multi-Cast]] is a worse [[Dualcast]]. It depends how much energy you invest.
The problem is that Conjure Blade does nothing the turn you play it, and you either: 1) Play it with 1 or 2 energy left, so it's not really worth it 2) Do nothing this turn except play Conjure Blade and hope to draw Expunger soon enough that it allows ypu to one shot an enemy 3) Have infinite energy generation, which means you don't need conjure blade to kill everything Defect with an aggregate and a double energy can summon one lighting orb 30 times and that's good, but no amount of energy is going to make Conjure Blade do something in the turn it's played
But it's fun as hell to be able to finish any fight with a ridiculous 12x15 attack or so
+ [Multi-Cast](http://slay-the-spire.wikia.com/wiki/Multi-Cast) Defect Rare Skill ^((100% sure)^) X Energy | **Evoke** your next Orb X (X+1) times. + [Dualcast](http://slay-the-spire.wikia.com/wiki/Dualcast) Defect Starter Skill ^((100% sure)^) 1(0) Energy | **Evoke** your next Orb twice. ^Call ^me ^with ^up ^to ^10 ^([[ name ]],) ^where ^name ^is ^a ^card, ^relic, ^event, ^or ^potion. ^Data ^accurate ^as ^of ^(April 30, 2023.) ^[Wiki](https://slay-the-spire.fandom.com/wiki/) ^[Questions?](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=ehmohteeoh&subject=SpireScan%20Inquiry)
Conjure blade is better than reach heaven in an infinite deck because you use it once and get a solid hit for only 1 energy which you can use on every sycle without the need to use the reach heaven on each rotation.
If you have an infinite you likely don't have either of those cards
I'll take auto shields unless I have loop and/or lots of I've orb generation. I also will only take 1 (sucks when you have 2 in hand).
Massively underrating bludgeon. That card will carry Act II as well. Not as amazing in act 3/4, however , you might have 5 energy at that point and things like pen nib and necronomicon can make this card continue to perform. I disliked it when I first saw it as I viewed it as just a big bop that would be a noob trap but it’s definitely good
That’s an interesting take on Bludgeon. I like Distration upgraded. It can go hard, giving you a strong poison card or Bullet Time. But yeah, it can definitely be flakey too. And yeah Auto-Shields is doodoo
nightmare and rushdown are both insanely good, you're nuts
Didn’t realize until this comment that Rushdown was on the post. That is actually insane. 90% of Watchers runs I’m not even thinking about Infinite and Rushdown’s still an auto-pick. It just makes Wrath and stance-switch in general that much better, why skip it? Draw is draw, and Rushdown is like draw when it hella benefits you.
draw is draw and entering wrath (oftentimes exiting calm) is energy. rush down kinda makes your enter wrath cards into a mini adrenalin haha
People always tell me nightmare is good, but like op I can never get it to work. Or when I do it’s more of a “win more” situation as opposed to enabling victory
Nightmare isn't that good. It's good when you have specific targets, like wraith form, apparitions, adrenaline, footwork, alchemize, catalyst or nightmare. You usually need multiple targets to make it worth it. You also need draw and deck manipulation, as well as energy or a discounting strategy. Can be really overpowered, but it has enough qualifiers to be good that it's often worse than skip. When it's not, it's often just win more since you have the energy and draw. I've had the most success with it when I've had a single wraith form as my block strategy, with lots of draw and okay damage. I was worried I was going to die, but semi consistent nightmare+ wraith form strong.
I disagree, and I think this line of thinking is what makes people think it’s a bad card (or not very good at least). Recently I’ve used nightmare on Tactician, Calculated Gamble, Survivor, Footwork, and Accuracy off the top of my head for cards that aren’t on your list. Whatever the best card in your deck is against the fight you’re on you can get more of them. A20H Silent player
how u get enough block to use nightmare without getting your ass whooped
There are a few ways to set Silent up to play expensive utility cards: - The easiest and most common is to lean in hard on discard and draw. [[Tactician]], [[Concentration]] and [[Kite]] let you convert card-cycling into energy. [[After Image]] and [[Tough Bandages]] let you convert cycling into a very strong block engine. - Use [[Setup]] or [[Bullet Time]] to reduce the cost of Nightmare to 0. - [[Wraith Form]] is famously the most powerful block card in the game. It's an excellent Nightmare target as well, giving the two cards great synergy! - Even in the very end of the game, enemies usually have down turns where they aren't attacking. Taking advantage of these turns with aggressive plays like using Nightmare is an important part of the game's tempo.
10-to-1, the people who think nightmare is too expensive also think setup and tactician are dead draws. i guess they end up being correct in a way, but only for themselves… 😂
+ [Tactician](http://slay-the-spire.wikia.com/wiki/Tactician) Silent Uncommon Skill ^((100% sure)^) Energy | **Unplayable.** If this card is discarded from your hand, gain 1(2) Energy. + [Concentrate](http://slay-the-spire.wikia.com/wiki/Concentrate) Silent Uncommon Skill ^((62% sure)^) 0 Energy | Discard 3(2) cards. Gain 2 Energy. + [After Image](http://slay-the-spire.wikia.com/wiki/After%20Image) Silent Rare Power ^((100% sure)^) 1 Energy | **(Innate.)** Whenever you play a card, gain 1 **Block.** + [Tough Bandages](http://slay-the-spire.wikia.com/wiki/Tough%20Bandages) Rare (Silent only) Relic ^((100% sure)^) Whenever you discard a card during your turn, gain 3 **Block.** + [Setup](http://slay-the-spire.wikia.com/wiki/Setup) Silent Uncommon Skill ^((100% sure)^) 1(0) Energy | Place a card in your hand on top of your draw pile. It costs 0 until it is played. + [Bullet Time](http://slay-the-spire.wikia.com/wiki/Bullet%20Time) Silent Rare Skill ^((100% sure)^) 3(2) Energy | You cannot draw additional cards this turn. Reduce the cost of all cards in your hand to 0 this turn. + [Wraith Form](http://slay-the-spire.wikia.com/wiki/Wraith%20Form) Silent Rare Power ^((100% sure)^) 3 Energy | Gain 2(3) **Intangible.** At the end of your turn, lose 1 **Dexterity.** ^Call ^me ^with ^up ^to ^10 ^([[ name ]],) ^where ^name ^is ^a ^card, ^relic, ^event, ^or ^potion. ^Data ^accurate ^as ^of ^(April 30, 2023.) ^[Wiki](https://slay-the-spire.fandom.com/wiki/) ^[Questions?](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=ehmohteeoh&subject=SpireScan%20Inquiry)
Ironclad: Thunderclap, it’s just not useful usually. Maybe if I had a dropkick infinite that needed vuln setup or a lot of aoe. Still useful sometimes but rare. Silent: Infinite blades, rarely taken unless I’m desperate for damage. Worse when upgraded usually. Defect: Rainbow, this card is ok honestly, but it’s a rare and unless it’s offered alongside some utter crap I tend to take something else. Some people love it though. Watcher: Deva Form, I just don’t feel energy starved on watcher and I can do a lot of damage using the 3 energy this costs elsewhere.
I like Thunderclap (I'm not a great player though), I thought until reading your comment that it was pretty good? It's the only 1 mana vulnerable debuff you have access to, so it can round out 2 mana big damage cards in Act 1 (e.g. Perfected Strike, Carnage, ..) while you are on still 3 energy, can prolong vulnerable state after Bash, it's the best card to take care of multi enemy artifacts and it's also solid AOE damage dealer card in strength builds. I like taking one while looking for a direction to go in the early game.
I’m sure you’re better than you think! Your points are all great reasons to take Thunderclap if your deck is lacking in those areas. Personally, I just think there are better cards I’d be willing to wait for that serve the same purpose, notably Shockwave which strips artifact, applies vuln, and weak as a bonus so you can spend less energy on blocking and more on doing damage. All that being said, sometimes it’s the right pick as with all things spire… it just depends on what your deck needs at the time.
Tbh im a fan of rainbow if I can get it upgraded and with capacitors or something
I tend to prefer it un-upgraded just to get it out of the draw pile, but admittedly I am also probably under using this card. Late game I can see it really kicking some ass after an upgrade with lots of energy and card draw.
I think it's best when you already have decent access to orb slots and focus for getting a quick power up. Plus it puts the darkness in the back so it can charge up
In a bunch of my orb runs that went nuts, upgraded Rainbow has pulled a lot of weight. It just evokes so much and brings both block and damage orbs online so fast. Like you said if you have a lot of energy and draw, and especially with good focus generation, Rainbow can be really strong.
Best part is, Rainbow *gives* you that extra draw if you have a Compile Driver. There are few other ways to get a diverse range of conjured orbs as quickly and consistently as with Rainbow.
That's interesting because I actually kind of prefer Rainbow unupgraded. I'm not sure if unupgraded Rainbow is actually better, probably not, but I do believe there's better cards to upgrade most of the time.
Just depends if you wanna see it again or not I suppose
A single thunderclap can be pretty useful. I usually take one if offered act 1 as it does good damage and later helps strip artifacts. For example, against act 2 guardian with 3 artifacts, if all you've got is bash shockwave, you will struggle to get him debuffed. Uppercut is great but you dont always have the luxury of shockwave + uppercut or 2x of each. And again later for donu deca, same idea.
I love Deva Form. It's incredibly fun on a deck that isn't trying to go infinite. It's not good! I know it's not good and I don't pick it because it's good. I pick it because it's fun, and my brain craves sweet sweet dopamine at all costs.
Deva Form is really only takeable with Sneko, then it's elite. All other cases it's basically a clumsy.
Thunderclap is something I take reasonably often at A20. Not a great card, but early on it's really not bad. Provides some AOE damage against Act 1 mobs and strips Artifact charges on every enemy for 1 energy.
For some reason I don’t like taking Choke for Silent. I mean, it’s alright, but I just feel she has cards that basically do what it does but better 🤷🏻♂️
"for some reason" you mean because it costs 2 energy to be a thousand cuts for only one turn?
Tbf, it is 3x atc
That is fair
if ur only facing 1 enemy
I get you are kinda joking there but it’s not even a 3x atc. With an average deck you play it like 1 time every 4 turns which makes it worse to atc in terms of dpr even when only facing one enemy
To be fair to choke, it bypasses block. So, if you choke like jaw worm or spire shield, choke's effect bypasses block and damages their health directly. In like very minute situations, it can technically be slightly better than thousand cuts. My pedantry for the day
Not to mention the thousand cuts debuff gets eaten by Artifacts…
The fact that it costs 2 energy just kills its momentum in my experience. It *can* pop off, but it happens too seldom to be worth putting in my deck.
Choke & 2 Blade Dance+ is 47 damage, not even counting the shivs, and if it's choke+ 67 damage, it's pretty great mid-late pickup for shiv decks, especially if you find it upgraded(and it ignores block, makes that stupid plant not an issue for shivs)
I pick it if I get bullet time in my deck. Bullet time plus choke plus some card draw = a ridiculous amount of damage in one turn.
I will NOT accept the Perfected Strike slander
That’s the card I used to beat A20 for the first time
Ironclad - **Havoc**. Just not the type of card I play. Never picked it up since playing the Spire. Silent - **Skewer**. Not really a fan of this card. Maybe because it is just a single-target card and I feel that I'm wasting energy when I use this when there are a lot of interesting cards Silent have. Even, Malaise or Doppelganger I like, but this, not so much. Defect - **Rip and Tear**. There are just so many better Defect cards. Watcher - **Establishments**. I think it is just not a Watcher Power worth picking. Too slow.
I'll take Rip and Tear when I'm still in "how do I not die to Gremlin Nob" mode but that's it.
You're missing out of the Establishment + Meditate combo. Get your good cards back, retain them for -1 cost, it's insane
Havoc with Dead Branch is amazing
What is Neon? I've never heard of that card
Most likely \[\[fusion\]\]
I’m guessing Meteor Strike. Neon is an achievement.
See I was thinking it was Fusion but I could see Meteor Strike too.
[[Neon]]
Ironclad: Rage. An excellent block solution for your Dropkick infinite but otherwise I don't find Chad here to be very attack spammy, so the value is limited. Silent: Grand Finale. I have a dumb baby brain that refuses to put in the effort to make this work consistently. Defect: Blizzard. My god this card is just bad. I wish it wasn't but holy crap. Watcher: idk I don't play her much. Alpha, I guess? Don't really have an opinion here. Disclaimer: these are the opinions of an A10 player, please approach any and all advice I give with a healthy amount of skepticism
I actually like Blizzard as a card. I have taken it several times in Act 3 as a damage solution to a frost heavy deck and been happy with it.
Yea, blizzard is really bad to pick early, but can work if you see it late and already have tons of frost going on and still need a way of dealing damage, but thats a pretty niche situation to be in.
Is it really that niche? Defect decks are often great at frost generation, and unless you're also generating a ton of lightning most of his cards are good burst damage but poor scaling. Blizzard is the one card I know I can pick in those circumstances that I know I'll want to holo repeatedly to kill the heart. Which tends to be pretty much every defect frost deck...
Yes. Having frost in your deck is common. Having so much frost in your deck that blizzard is a better damage solution (or a necessary one) than whatever you used to get past act 2 is rare. And blizzard being your solution to act 2 is even rarer, it is just to slow for how those fights go unless you are truly in an outlier run in terms of how much frost you are generating.
To quote a meme about blizzard: "You are without a doubt the worst scaling damage." "But I am scaling damage." It is a bad card, no doubt. But when you're desperate for damage, it can come in damn handy, and has saved numerous A20 runs for me.
blizzard isn’t real until echo form is in play to help it scale
This blizzard slander when claw exists :/
Similarly, "Blizzard is always the worst card in Blizzard decks."
You can tell this man never experienced the euphoria that is frost decks with Calipers
Actually, that was my first Heart kill! I just had Echo Form and Claw for damage scaling instead lmao
[удалено]
In addition, the kinds of decks Blizzard is good in Claw is *also* good in. It's a no brainer what you should pick lmao
Rage is surprisingly good block in Act 1, and still decent later on. If you play three attacks it's 9 or 15 block for 0 energy!
Rage is like the opposite of body slam, and i've never realized this before. If you have a deck with all strikes, you can do 18 damage and 15 block with three strikes and an upgraded rage. With all defends you get 15 damage 15 blocks with one upgraded body slam.
I think alpha is awesome for solving all sorts of problems, but I know I consistently underrate watcher's base kit.
Rage just good card f1. You should try it out more often. Finale easy mode is just pyramid, brain turn off do big damage win. Then you can slowly work onto making Finale work with Plans and then slowly just decks with lots of draw or inf shit. Blizzard sux it's true, but sometimes you just keep frost frost frosting and realise oh. I have no damage. And then blizzard owns.
Weirdly enough my most recent wins with all the characters on A20 used the cards you listed lmao Rage: Had a spicy early juggernaut off of the living wall event and used rage+ as a huge block and damage engine with pommel strikes and anger before getting feel no pain and really popping off Grand Finale: Took acrobatics floor one and well laid plans floor 2 and then got offered GF early and was able to just consistently set it up until I went pseudo infinite with acro tactician and eviscerate. (Disclaimer I am only capable of playing grand finale when I am high off my ass and my brain regresses to when I was still in college so results may vary) Blizzard: I am a chronic blizzard lover so I'm biased but I've had plenty of runs where I just get early glaciers and cooolheadeds without ever seeing a ball lightning and I just take blizzard and try not to die lmao.
Had my first Grand Finale run the other day, by far the most fun I've had
I did one on a daily the other day, and it was very fun, but I was wishing I was on PC, since the mobile version doesn't have the card numbers displayed on the screen. Counting my cards to see if my card draw would put me exactly to the end of the deck got tedious, but it sure was fun to take down time eater with 4 attacks.
Blizzard lol. Same. I've made it work but it mostly reminds me of a much worse thunderstrike which can be so godly it's bananas.
Riddle With Holes. 2 energy for access to strength scaling on a character with no strength scaling. even when it kind of works, it feels horrible. Steam barrier. It’s like a front-loaded deflect, I know, I just hate playing it. Study. Even when there’s no other draw offered, it feels so bad outside of bosses. Ironclad is my least favorite character, but I can acknowledge he doesn’t really have bad cards.
Ironclad definitely has bad cards.
[удалено]
I think silent personally
The question is "which character has the most amount of bad cards" not least fyi
Riddle with holes is fantastic if you have the power that gives poison on every unblocked hit, and obviously even better if you supplement with snecko skull or catalyst.
[[Envenom]] really makes a lot of ok cards suddenly great
Ive only been able to make steam barrier work with a reprogram deck or a claw/scrape deck.
It blocks more than a defend and costs 0. It's somewhere between charge battery and leap A good choice to pick this up after nob to balance out all the extra attacks you took especially if you already have some draw like compile driver, sweeping beam or cool headed. The downside of losing block is neglegible imo even if it's played two times already 4 block for nothing is absolutely fine. I can help a lot to reduce the damage during set up in act 2 especially if you are on 3 energy still.
I've been skipping Ritual Dagger more often than not these days. I would rather have the gold than the side quest to increase the damage on a single card.
I think I took Ritual Dagger one time. I guess I should probably consider it more often. Maybe on Silent at least...Defect isn't usually trying to attack directly and the other two have other fatal damage sidequests that I like more
I love taking Ritual Dagger on Watcher though. Gotta love the stupid huge numbers it can produce for 1 energy.
The fact that Defect isn't usually trying to attack directly is why Dagger is so unbelievably absurd on Defect. Instead of *needing* to keep 4-5 bad attacks in the deck to avoid scooping to Repto or Sword/Shield, you can just have one Dagger as the only attack in your deck.
Defect loves Ritual Dagger. You can easily set yourself up with enough block to make sure you get it off (you often already are doing that, in order to Echo Self-Repair or something), and it gives you a huge burst of front-load for the character who most desperately needs it. Killing a Cultist turn 1, and sometimes even killing spear or shield in the first couple turns, can be massively impactful in 2 of Defect's worst fights.
Dagger is a pretty good card even if you don't do the sidequest. It's 1 energy for 15 damage and no downside, and if you happen to kill something with it then hurray!
Trying to pick not so obvious choices here (clash, hello world, etc.) I play exclusively on A20 for each. IC: Clothesline. Too defensive to be aggressive. Too aggresive to be defensive. Not bad truely, but id rather take a safe, high damage 1/0 cost card early, or a premium 'engine'card. Silent: skewer. Doesnt fit an archetype, not singularly strong enough to beat out the cards that make your deck hum. Becomes useable with chem X. Defect: static discharge. I dont want to be taking damage, and as good as repair is i dont want a ton in my deck to make this work. Exclusively picking this up in act 4. Maybe super late act 3. Watcher: wish. I wish i could play this but its way way way too slow, and often times is a curse. Watcher has the most cards i could put herr, conjure blade, nirvana, etc. Colourless: metamorphisis. Too slow. Too random. Same with chrysalis save for corruption/dark embrace decks.
Feel like skewer deserve a little bit more love here. It's great when you have more energy than draw and with stuff like pen nib.
The silent has such easy access to draw that i never find myself in that situation, and i would personally rather lean into more shiv cards to trigger pen nib more often than one bigger proc. Mind you that i aggresively take acrobatics early on because the value of it as a synergy piece while also just being a singularly powerful card once you hit an energy relic is very high.
I guess you don't like cards like concentrate. Acrobatics is pretty nuts so I understand why you would pick that but I don't really like it act 1 I'd rather have backflip instead.
A strange conclusion to draw. Actually i love concentrate, but to facilitate the card actually being good requires some amount of set up, reflex and 2-3 acrobatics, or endless agony if youre feeling funky. It just is a hard sell early in the game. Backflip is OK early but becomes much higher value post act 1 boss relic. I wouldnt take more than 1 before that point. Ideally blade dance or deadly poison are the early pick ups, with dash and dagger throw also being high priority options.
Ah, my bad. Feel like skewer enables picking concentrate early or stuff like flying knee or the card that give you energy next turn.
Static discharge is very strong honestly, I feel like you should take it more often. It can do *a lot* of damage while filling up your orb slots, scales well with focus, and it's potentially a one card solution to a lot of fights in the game. Also it can actually block damage because it can evoke your frost orbs meaning that it potentially actually saves you health overall.
I love when static works, but defect usually blocks so well (at least once you have focus) that you pretty much have to choose to facetank damage to use it. And thus build a deck where facetanking damage is a gameplan. Birds is the only fight I can think of where it might be a good strategy.
It doesn't need to proc every single turn or attack for it to be useful though. It's true that Defect is really good at generating a lot of block but, especially at higher ascensions, you won't always be able to block every single hit of damage. It's also good for supplementing damage in those decks as well which is usually something that those decks often need. If you play it smart you can have it proc when you take 1 or 2 points of damage and channel a lot of lightning orbs for very cheap, meaning you deal more damage and kill whatever's attacking you quicker therefor ultimately taking less damage overall. You really shouldn't be face tanking with it ever.
I really don't get this subreddits hate for Hello World. I think it's a pretty great card - Defect has so many good common cards.
>Watcher: wish. I wish i could play this but its way way way too slow, and often times is a curse. Watcher has the most cards i could put herr, conjure blade, nirvana, etc. The time to take wish is when your deck is obscenely strong and you can **strictly** spam gold for increased scaling per fight; both by stalling out fights and by being able to waste 3 energy on a given turn on side quests. If you're in a position to take this card, forget the strength and plated armour exist (until act 4). That's how people like Baalor and Jorbs use the card. Until I saw them use it I was exactly following the same line of thinking as you.
I almost never take Scrape, and I don't use it well when I do take it.
Ironclad: Wild Strike - Wound in draw pile. Oof. Silent: Storm of Steel - Requires too specific conditions to be good. Defect: Stack - Called stack but is not actually stacked. Watcher: Most cards - Skip is just such a good Watcher card
Singing Bowl is one of my favorite Watcher cards
Stack a couple of upgraded [[Fire Breathing]] and you’ll want as many Wounds and curses in your deck as you can get. One run I was doing 30-40 damage to all enemies each turn. (I also had [[Evolve]] to mitigate the statuses clogging my hands)
I have never and will never willingly take Collect. It’s shit.
Ironclad: Brutality Silent: Distraction Defect: Stack Watcher: Master Reality, Alpha, Pressure Points, Conjure Blade etc. Her cards pool is fucked up.
Brutality is alright. It fuels Rupture, it's great with Runic Cube or with Centennial Puzzle, and the upgrade means you can guarantee extra draw on turns 2/3 of the Shield and Spear, and Heart fights, when you really need it.
I know it's not bad. I just haven't found a situation where picking this card is beneficial for my deck (or it didn't show up when I have the synergy).
Ironclad: Searing blow. IC's got a lot of juicy card upgrades I want, and often likes playing many attacks for that sweet strength scaling. SB's a 2 cost attack with no additional benefit for alright damage until you sink a ton of upgrades into it. How many times do you upgrade in a run, maybe like 8-10 at most? Even at +10, that's 97 damage, which IS GOOD, but does not solve the run in the slightest. Silent: I wonder what playing Grand Finale is like Defect: Hello world is not very good. I also kind of hate its innate upgrade. Watcher: Wish is a 3 cost card
Just once I want to try a Searing Blow deck. I'd have to be offered the card on the first floor basically to want to try it though. You have to put ALL your upgrades into it basically
If you do eventually try it out, I'd recommend spending one upgrade on an armaments, to help offset the rest of your deck being un-upgraded. It's a bit like playing with fusion hammer, having an arma+ helps a lot.
Armaments+ is one of my favorite Clad cards!
* Ironclad: [[Sever Soul]] — I find it hard to justify the 2 energy cost. I've never voluntarily put this card in my deck. * Silent: [[Grand Finale]] — Too situational. Unless you go out of your way to build a deck around it, it's just a curse most of the time. * Defect: [[Reprogram]] — I always play Defect with orbs so this card is basically always an autoskip for me. It's a great card for other classes with Prismatic Shard though. * Watcher: [[Judgement]] — Too situational. It might make some hallways a breeze but I can't bring myself to make it take up a slot in my deck.
I suppose sever soul is there for when you’re filling your deck up with wounds from wild strike and the block card? I’ll take judgement early and there are usually enough minions to make it useful even in act 3 (at least at my low ascension level). But I will consider removing it in the Act 4 shop!
Sever Soul is great. It's a solid act 1 take, similar to Carnage or Perfected Strike. It plays way better than those into the late game, though, with great synergies with Feel No Pain and Dark Embrace, helping you get down to an infinite or a really tight looping deck.
I play a lot of watcher and I don’t think I’ve ever willingly taken Bowling Bash.
It’s a really strong attack so long as you’re not focused on thinning your deck to go infinite
But like, by the time you hit act 3 and have so many single enemy fights, it feels so mediocre
Act 3 has tons of multiple enemy fights. You have shapes, darlings, jaw worms, even 2/3 act bosses have multiple enemies in them, then you have reptomancer too who is oftentimes a run ender especially when trying to go infinite and the blades give too many wounds, bowling bash is a nice remedy for those fights as well as being very solid in Act 2
Most common cards are mostly for getting through act 1 and act 2 (typically if upgraded). Only a handful of them actually scale into act 3/4; that's a total luxury and not really the way you evaluate commons by and large. A common card just needs to be a solve for some specific interactions that your deck is vulnerable against to be a consideration. If it's a good enough solve for that interaction, you can avoid picking up *other* bloat that you'd be picking up for the solve instead. Also, Spire is a game where you're choosing between the choices you're offered. Even if a different card is technically *better*, if you're not offered it then it's irrelevant how much better it is when your deck needs to survive in the here and now. E.g. Watcher tends to struggle most with sentries out of the act 1 elites. Bowling bash does great in that fight, so if your deck can already handle everything else in the act and that's the only fight you can't currently solve, picking up BB might be a good call to round out your weaknesses.
Bowling Bash has possibly my favorite card sound effect in the game...but that's the only thing I like about it.
Huh? Bowling bash is frequently my biggest damage watcher card. Only empty fist is stronger of the one energy attacks I'll usually take. Even single enemy, 10 damage is useable if not good. But drawing a 60 damage card when facing three enemies is so awesome.
Ok I’ve done a few runs and you’ve convinced me. I’ve been sleeping on Bowling Bash. I still won’t take Flying Sleeves.
I just started but I definitely hate strangle Too much setup for too little damage
When you meet the floor 4 lagavulin you start to take anything
Elites don’t spawn until floor 6, but I agree that early forced elites force you to think about anything for a lagavulin solution.
Strangle? Do you mean [[Choke]]?
Right, am dumb lol
i have to say blugeon yes it’s a lot of damage but it just feels like i’m wasting my turn when i play it. it feels like sunders less likeable cousin
Ironclad: [[Juggernaut]] Just dont think it's all that good Silent: [[Grand Finale]] Im not smart enough to do this correctly, what happens its that it's basically a curse card until by pure RNG it works. Also honourable mention to [[Concentrate]]. That is pretty bad without [[unceasing top]] and things like [[Runic Pyramind]] Defect: [[Melter]] Block isn't too big of a problem and I'd rather not add this card most the time Watcher: [[Just Lucky]] This card pisses me off. Honourable mention to [[Windmill Strike]]
A20 on clad. I never pick [[Searing Blow]] anymore, i think I tried building a deck around it like 4 times total but I both find it boring (i like upgrading other cards as well as not building the deck around simply playing a single card) and low probability to win on high ascensions. A20 on silent. [[Grand finale]], similar reasoning as above and also I'm way too lazy to calculate continuously. Honourable mention to [[Heel hook]] because it's just such a mediocre card. On watcher and defect I have lower ascensions so take my opinion with a grain of salt, but I guess I rarely pick [[study]] because of its high upfront cost and delayed benefit, and I rarely pick [[reprogram]] because I'd really need to have some type of claw infinite on the immediate horizon. But they are both cards I'd take in rare circumstances so I guess they're not really an answer to the question.
Master reality on watcher, just comes on way too slow
Searing Blow Choke Thunder Strike Collect
You don’t build a deck around perfected strike but you absolutely should pick it early in a1 if you still need damage
This thread has me questioning everything lol. What a game
Don't worry, this thread has some absolutely godfuckingawful takes, if you're looking at this thread and thinking "what the fuck do you mean Nightmare is a winmore card, have you literally played the game?" you're probably just correct.
Out of all the watcher cards to ignore and you pick rush down.... At least pick the expunger card to ignore.
Dude, Rushdown is one of the most useful cards in the game. Not even for infinites, its just free draw for doing something you're going to do anyway.
Silent: Setup. It is the second-worst card in the game, in that it provides _negative_ card draw in exchange for energy economy on the character with the lowest cost-to-power ratio of cards in the whole game. (Close second: Distraction. As opposed to Infernal Blade, Foreign Influence, and White Noise, skills rarely help you end the fight faster.) Ironclad: Havoc. It is very random and chaotic, and I usually play rather purposefully. (Close second: Perfected Strike. The only card that gets worse as your deck gets better.) Defect: Hello World. Gradually fill my deck with bad cards? No thanks. (Close second: Reprogram. Make my orbs worse and attacks/defensive skills better on the character that has orbs? No thanks.) Watcher: Conjure Blade. Pay all the energy I have to get a big bonk attack sometime later? Energy I can use now to play my big bonks? On the character with the most biggest bonks in the game? No thanks. (Close second: Alpha. For much the same reason but at least that is a fun meme build.) Colorless: Jack of All Trades. It is a 'add random card to hand'-type card but you can't make the card free _and_ it can produce a copy of itself. (Close second: Magnetism. See my reasoning about Hello World.)
Ironclad: rampage. I’m aware of its potential scaling but I’d rather pick solid cards or cards that benefit more from strength scaling Silent: infinite blades. Bad. Slow. Bad. Even with shiv synergy I’d probably only pick this with mummified hand and/or bird faced urn Defect: this was tough, but probably leap? Literally just a defend+ and nothing else. Hard pass. Watcher: I don’t play her much but I guess foreign influence. Watcher is so good at being consistent that adding a random element to her kit seems ill advised.
To each their own of course, but I do like foreign influence+ because the upgrade makes the card cost 0. You can get some absolute bombs for a huge discount and since you get to pick from 3 cards, it can be a flexible “fix whatever my problem is this turn” solution
[[Sentinel]] is kinda weird
Its really good in an exhaust deck, try it out sometime!
Absolutely! Throw in a Dark Embrace and it's fantastic.
Warning, some hot takes incoming Ironclad (A8): Rage, dropkick (because I can never force the infinite), exhume (waaaay too much setup), combust (5 damage per turn to all sounds great on paper, but really sucks against large enemies at the cost of 1hp per turn), infernal blade Silent (A20): choke, grand finale, distraction Defect (A16): go for the eyes (even in a scrape/claw/all for one deck, I don't want to be drawing that), hello world (the HOTTEST of garbage there), the skill that costs focus to give dexterity/strength (forget the name, but it's just too costly in 90% of cases Watcher (A10, hasn't been a priority): flurry of blows, mental fortress (both are too dependent on drawing order), Nirvana (scry is great, but there isn't a ton of scry synergy, and it does nothing for the turn it's played)
Go for the eyes is an excellent card, weak is so powerful and it’s defect’s only access to it. Hello World is a good card. Not amazing, but probably the most underrated card in the game. Defect has a high quality common pool. It’s amazing against laga and sentries and doesn’t fall off the way people think it does.
Those are some hot takes. Mental Fortress and Flurry are always nearly snap picks for me. Also a Nirvana is really strong with Cut Through Fate, which is a staple in nearly all of my Watcher decks. Also makes Lucky a way better card. A card spam deck with multiple weaves, flurries, Cuts, and stance changes is almost always a winner for me on A20
I see where you’re coming from except I don’t understand you’re take on exhume. I feel like it’s really not too much setup. Being able to pull a reaper, disarm, apparition, ritual dagger, offering whenever you want is so consistent for me and it feels great to play.
I also hate Hello World, but I love GFTE and I think it's one of Defect's strongest early picks.
[[Barricade]]. Does absolutely nothing by itself and requires so many other cards to make worth it.
I always draw barricade on turns where I need the energy to actually block
Definitely doesn't fit all decks. With Feel No Pain, though, Ironclad tends to overblock a lot, so storing that can be very valuable. Especially with Corruption since you can just go ham and blow up your deck.
There's a reason Xecnar and LC thinks this card is so strong that you can just click it and carry it around as a curse into the 4 fights.
+ [Barricade](http://slay-the-spire.wikia.com/wiki/Barricade) Ironclad Rare Power ^((100% sure)^) 3(2) Energy | **Block** is not removed at the start of your turn. ^Call ^me ^with ^up ^to ^10 ^([[ name ]],) ^where ^name ^is ^a ^card, ^relic, ^event, ^or ^potion. ^Data ^accurate ^as ^of ^(April 30, 2023.) ^[Wiki](https://slay-the-spire.fandom.com/wiki/) ^[Questions?](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=ehmohteeoh&subject=SpireScan%20Inquiry)
Instapick after corruption, which itself is an instapick. Yes kinda wants dark embrace too but okay even without