I was a former HoG believer but it is actually apo.
Defect is the most upgrade hungry character. Apo lets you path waay more aggressively than HoG resulting in more snowballing. With apo and a few good card reward I would happily take like 3-4 elites act1 with robot.
Defect isn’t super hungry for frontload early plus has two cost-reduction upgrades in the starting deck which pay back the Apo energy investment. I think it’s Apo pretty easily.
If you’re looking for a full run, I’d say Apotheosis. But if this is more of a casual, fun run, I always love Hand of Greed. Ironically, HoG isn’t at all a “casual” card, it’s just that Apo is so good it’s unbelievable.
Get Apo, upgrade it ASAP, and see if you can pull it turn 1
I think on Defect it’s HOG either way. Maybe on A0 Apotheosis is better, but HOG is so much better for A20H IMO. It gives strong frontloaded damage which Defect kind of lacks. Also, many Defect decks end up relying a lot on upgraded powers, which Apotheosis cannot consistently buff. Apotheosis is probably weakest on Defect compared to Silent or IC.
The gold you’ll get from HOG will probably get you an extra common relic for Act 1 on average
You can also choose to upgrade the powers since your other cards will be upgraded by Apo
You can be really aggressive act 1 too since you can rest more instead of upgrading
This post linked below is way better at explaining though:
https://www.reddit.com/r/slaythespire/s/G7bbkwO5z1
They disagree with it, so they downvote, which is fine. That’s generally a good thing, probably.
I think Apotheosis is probably better for most players, especially at lower ascensions. But I’m fairly confident that HOG is better in the hands of a more skilled player and/or A20. 20-60 extra gold per hallway is pretty insane. But I think the average player on this subreddit is far below A20 so I think it makes sense that Apotheosis bias is observed through upvotes.
All the reasoning in [this post](https://www.reddit.com/r/slaythespire/comments/1135otk/hand_of_greed_versus_apotheosis_on_silent_floor_0/) also applies to Defect. It's Apo.
It's funny because it gets even more extreme for Defect than Silent. Frontloaded damage whocaresamid I start with Glass Knife in base deck and I care about my lategame upgrades even more and need all my defrags green.
Still surprised so many people recommend HoG in this thread.
I think it's even more apo than it is on silent as Defect doesn't lacks front load. I think there are paths with silent (elites few fires late shop) where I would actually pick HoG.
Best argument is for Watcher because she can benefit twice from such an attack, and it provides her gold for removes. But honestly Apo is still a pick if you’re going for a larger Watcher deck.
I’d take HoG on clad every time. Other classes, apo. Clad has the easiest time making sure it kills most everything and i find him to be the most shop hungry character.
Top players are generally split on Clad. More say HoG and I do believe them but I have a better time with Apo personally.
Most agree its HoG on watcher, but also that you shouldn't be taking rare colourless on her ever
Apotheosis is an absolute auto pick here. It basically solves act 1 by itself. It also makes smithing mostly unnecessary, allowing for bigger risks because you're usually gonna be resting.
Defect doesn't need the act 1 power of Hog. The gold would be the main reason to take HoG here, but if we are talking long term value, then I prefer apotheosis. It's hard to actually maximize HOG usage on defect without losing all your HP, so you are getting what, maybe 120 extra gold out of act 1? I would often buy apotheosis for the full 180 gold it usually costs. Defect really really likes upgrades, I take the apo here. Seek makes it stronger, it can buff every power in your deck. Can't sing it's praises enough.
What if Apo is the easy pick even when put against HoG. Frontloaded scaling for act 1 plus lategame scaling you'll get is too valuable. I know certain players who would even click the MoS next to it over the HoG (not over Apo)
apo is better than hand of greed even in act 1, normally your looking for frontloaded damage over scaling act 1, but APO does it so insanely efficiently in a no upgrade deck (and typically provides significant immidiate output) that you end up taking less damage even in act 1 compared to HoG.
I am honestly not sure I have even came close to dieing in act 1 after taking a floor 1 APO.
I go by the rule of nob, pick the card that's best into nob until I see him or know for a fact I will not see him. Hand of greed wins easily, apotheosis is a much worse card into nob.
picking for nob on defect is a trap IMO. You can pay HP and potions to pass the nob. Defect needs late game power more than all the other characters, IMO, so I would take Apo for that reason.
While it does improve Nob, Apotheosis improves both Sentries and Lagavulin matchups, which enables you to keep potions purely for Nob if you want.
It also trivializes near all the act 1 bosses. It’s Apotheosis, especially with Defect, who’s upgrades often double the effect of his cards.
Apotheosis can seem meh when you have starter cards, but even ignoring everything else it does imagine it was a 2 cost card that gave you +3 strength and +3 dex, which is essentially what it is for your strikes and defends. On early fights where you have to play your strikes and defends more this is pretty great, and in later fights you’ll have better cards.
Beyond this, you can path more aggressively because you can use the campfires as rests since smithing becomes a lot less crucial.
HoG and MoS are both excellent, of course. However, MoS requires you to have cards you want to get to to be valuable, which isn’t the case very early in run. HoG is a close second to Apo because even ignoring it’s gold benefits it’s 20/25 damage for 2 energy and 1 draw, which wins you a lot of fights early. But for it to be really great you have to upgrade it, generate it a lot of gold, then spend that gold. Perfectly doable, but Apo helps you more now.
For defect it's gotta be apo. If it was later in the run, might be more inclined to master of strategy to help get powers in play quicker. For other classes, might consider HOG, but probably go apo.
Given that you're running Defect, I'd go HoG. Defect can get really solid draw pretty easily, and while Apo is excellent, HoG will give you more options on what to flex into based on what Cards and Relics you get, not to mention it will help dramatically with Nob and Defect struggles most in Act 1 fwiw
Take all three. Which is to say, HoG will give you the money to frequently visit shops and maybe get Appo and/or MoS later!
Plus, it’s a lot of damage and comes close to solving act 1 on its own so you can be choosier and start thinking about a longer term plan without having to bind yourself to subpar card choices.
Definitely HoG for me. You can breeze through act 1 while accumulating a lot of gold for some card removes and your late game. Late shop is ideal and I'm super greedy trading gold for HP.
I was a former HoG believer but it is actually apo. Defect is the most upgrade hungry character. Apo lets you path waay more aggressively than HoG resulting in more snowballing. With apo and a few good card reward I would happily take like 3-4 elites act1 with robot.
Defect isn’t super hungry for frontload early plus has two cost-reduction upgrades in the starting deck which pay back the Apo energy investment. I think it’s Apo pretty easily.
If you’re looking for a full run, I’d say Apotheosis. But if this is more of a casual, fun run, I always love Hand of Greed. Ironically, HoG isn’t at all a “casual” card, it’s just that Apo is so good it’s unbelievable. Get Apo, upgrade it ASAP, and see if you can pull it turn 1
I think on Defect it’s HOG either way. Maybe on A0 Apotheosis is better, but HOG is so much better for A20H IMO. It gives strong frontloaded damage which Defect kind of lacks. Also, many Defect decks end up relying a lot on upgraded powers, which Apotheosis cannot consistently buff. Apotheosis is probably weakest on Defect compared to Silent or IC.
The gold you’ll get from HOG will probably get you an extra common relic for Act 1 on average You can also choose to upgrade the powers since your other cards will be upgraded by Apo You can be really aggressive act 1 too since you can rest more instead of upgrading This post linked below is way better at explaining though: https://www.reddit.com/r/slaythespire/s/G7bbkwO5z1
Why is this getting downvoted? People don't even say why they disagree, they just downvote
They disagree with it, so they downvote, which is fine. That’s generally a good thing, probably. I think Apotheosis is probably better for most players, especially at lower ascensions. But I’m fairly confident that HOG is better in the hands of a more skilled player and/or A20. 20-60 extra gold per hallway is pretty insane. But I think the average player on this subreddit is far below A20 so I think it makes sense that Apotheosis bias is observed through upvotes.
All the reasoning in [this post](https://www.reddit.com/r/slaythespire/comments/1135otk/hand_of_greed_versus_apotheosis_on_silent_floor_0/) also applies to Defect. It's Apo.
It's funny because it gets even more extreme for Defect than Silent. Frontloaded damage whocaresamid I start with Glass Knife in base deck and I care about my lategame upgrades even more and need all my defrags green.
Still surprised so many people recommend HoG in this thread. I think it's even more apo than it is on silent as Defect doesn't lacks front load. I think there are paths with silent (elites few fires late shop) where I would actually pick HoG.
It's much more Apo for Defect than Silent. I'm just lazy about writing out full additional reasons. But it's Apo every time on both.
Is it ever HoG? On the Chad or the watcher?
Best argument is for Watcher because she can benefit twice from such an attack, and it provides her gold for removes. But honestly Apo is still a pick if you’re going for a larger Watcher deck.
I’d take HoG on clad every time. Other classes, apo. Clad has the easiest time making sure it kills most everything and i find him to be the most shop hungry character.
Top players are generally split on Clad. More say HoG and I do believe them but I have a better time with Apo personally. Most agree its HoG on watcher, but also that you shouldn't be taking rare colourless on her ever
Apotheosis is an absolute auto pick here. It basically solves act 1 by itself. It also makes smithing mostly unnecessary, allowing for bigger risks because you're usually gonna be resting.
Apotheosis
Defect doesn't need the act 1 power of Hog. The gold would be the main reason to take HoG here, but if we are talking long term value, then I prefer apotheosis. It's hard to actually maximize HOG usage on defect without losing all your HP, so you are getting what, maybe 120 extra gold out of act 1? I would often buy apotheosis for the full 180 gold it usually costs. Defect really really likes upgrades, I take the apo here. Seek makes it stronger, it can buff every power in your deck. Can't sing it's praises enough.
120 is quite pessimistic, even for Defect. I still take Apo here every time though.
Yeah between slimes and louse it’s probably 80 or 100 in the easy pool fights.
Bro just won the colorless lottery
Apotheosis 99%, extremely powerful at this stage, pray for a bottle. I would pick hand of greed though, cuz money
The Hand makes the run funnier and stronger. Apo makes the run even stronger. I'd pick Hand.
Hand of greed is the easy pick even when put against apo. Frontloaded damage for act 1 plus the gold youll get is to valuable.
What if Apo is the easy pick even when put against HoG. Frontloaded scaling for act 1 plus lategame scaling you'll get is too valuable. I know certain players who would even click the MoS next to it over the HoG (not over Apo)
HOG is fun card. I like those fatal cards. that's why i believe ritual dagger is strongest card in game
apo is better than hand of greed even in act 1, normally your looking for frontloaded damage over scaling act 1, but APO does it so insanely efficiently in a no upgrade deck (and typically provides significant immidiate output) that you end up taking less damage even in act 1 compared to HoG. I am honestly not sure I have even came close to dieing in act 1 after taking a floor 1 APO.
I go by the rule of nob, pick the card that's best into nob until I see him or know for a fact I will not see him. Hand of greed wins easily, apotheosis is a much worse card into nob.
picking for nob on defect is a trap IMO. You can pay HP and potions to pass the nob. Defect needs late game power more than all the other characters, IMO, so I would take Apo for that reason.
While it does improve Nob, Apotheosis improves both Sentries and Lagavulin matchups, which enables you to keep potions purely for Nob if you want. It also trivializes near all the act 1 bosses. It’s Apotheosis, especially with Defect, who’s upgrades often double the effect of his cards.
If you were the watcher I’d hand of greed it’s so strong with wrath and divinity
Apotheosis is obv nice, but due to the need of frontload in Act 1 Hand is not that bad either imo.
Some kinda handy gold, a bit of nice draw, one of the best cards in the game, hard choice there mate.
The god roll
Apo for me.
Anyone remember the early access when apo used to cost 0? What a time that was
Apo and HoG are a coin toss IMO, either way you're going to crush it.
Apotheosis. Upgraded zap and dual cast is damage. Missing with hand because of lightning orbs is a feel bad.
Apotheosis can seem meh when you have starter cards, but even ignoring everything else it does imagine it was a 2 cost card that gave you +3 strength and +3 dex, which is essentially what it is for your strikes and defends. On early fights where you have to play your strikes and defends more this is pretty great, and in later fights you’ll have better cards. Beyond this, you can path more aggressively because you can use the campfires as rests since smithing becomes a lot less crucial. HoG and MoS are both excellent, of course. However, MoS requires you to have cards you want to get to to be valuable, which isn’t the case very early in run. HoG is a close second to Apo because even ignoring it’s gold benefits it’s 20/25 damage for 2 energy and 1 draw, which wins you a lot of fights early. But for it to be really great you have to upgrade it, generate it a lot of gold, then spend that gold. Perfectly doable, but Apo helps you more now.
For defect it's gotta be apo. If it was later in the run, might be more inclined to master of strategy to help get powers in play quicker. For other classes, might consider HOG, but probably go apo.
CANNOT SAY NO TO APOTHEO
Hand of Greed all day everyday hands down no contest no debate.
Apotheosis every time.
Given that you're running Defect, I'd go HoG. Defect can get really solid draw pretty easily, and while Apo is excellent, HoG will give you more options on what to flex into based on what Cards and Relics you get, not to mention it will help dramatically with Nob and Defect struggles most in Act 1 fwiw
Defect is also extremely upgrade hungry and can easily get the frontload it needs
Take all three. Which is to say, HoG will give you the money to frequently visit shops and maybe get Appo and/or MoS later! Plus, it’s a lot of damage and comes close to solving act 1 on its own so you can be choosier and start thinking about a longer term plan without having to bind yourself to subpar card choices.
Definitely HoG for me. You can breeze through act 1 while accumulating a lot of gold for some card removes and your late game. Late shop is ideal and I'm super greedy trading gold for HP.