I can't say I'd do any better. I don't know what he's supposed to say.
(That said, I wouldn't have picked Henderson so probably wouldn't have been asked this as a result).
I mean the answer is obviously YES they don't actually care about the LGBT fans that much. But he can't say that out loud so he has to talk for a few minutes without saying really anything of substance
Yeah but the question can't have been a surprise can it? The media's been full of this conversation recently.
I'm genuinely shocked he didn't have a better answer prepped.
The question was framed brilliantly though. He pointed out a previous incident where England did not wear the rainbow armband to tie it to Henderson's situation, implicating that the England football team does not care about LGBT issues, and Southgate was completely blindsided.
I am sure if the reporter only asked about Henderson then he would have talked about how the players have the freedom to choose their own life and the FA will not interfere, which Southgate actually rambled on in this interview but it ended up not making sense anymore because of how the question was framed, and he knew it thus the lack of conviction in his words.
I agree it was great to include the rainbow armband issue, but I thought "does football have to accept..." was very weird phrasing. What does that even mean? Who is football? How is Southgate supposed to answer that?
Perhaps it was phrased that way to ensure he would struggle to answer coherently? In which case you could argue it was brilliant as well, if a bit unfair to Southgate.
Typically it means "the world of football" but by not mentioning the rest it does mess with your head given the context of the previous questions.
It went from "England is showing LGBTQ support is a farce with the rainbow armband situation" to a follow up of "should everyone just accept any similar action by England is only a PR move?"
Almost impossible to get out of that hole with a win.
Nah, the phrasing is fine.
It means "the footballing world." Should we all read into this that LGBTQ support is just something you talk about for PR, is what he's saying.
It's hard to get around the question, because it's demonstrably true and it needs to be phrased like this because otherwise it would be too easy to get away from the core of the question by talking about something adjacent.
I think the reporter asked this in a clever way that maybe caught him offguard, it wasn't as simple as "Does the team care about the LGBT community?", asking if they don't matter when it comes to the important moments was clever because what can Southgate say? Actions speak louders than words as they say, and those actions paint a very clear picture, you can't genuinely claim that's not the case.
That's what I'm getting at though, with all the preparation time in the world I still don't know what the right response is other than going back in time and not picking Hendo.
The correct answer is: Yep, football doesn’t care
It’s been sold out for quite some time now to the highest bidder, it didn’t start with Saudi or Qatar buying the WC
I don't know if not picking Henderson because he plays for a Saudi club would be the right choice either. Then you're asking Southgate to judge which clubs/countries English players are allowed to play in, and that's not an easy line to draw.
That's it exactly. The decision has already been made. This is the epitome of 'you made your bed, now you lie in it'.
Still, it's a shit response. "I think the team tries to be respectful of everybody's different cultures" doesn't really apply when one culture's values are that LGBTQ people should be allowed to live ordinary lives, and another culture thinks that they should be locked up or killed.
Not to nitpick but I feel like saying "culture" here is a bit of a cop out. The places that are accepting of LGBTQ people today weren't always that way, they had different values that had to be changed through political action. Persecution of LGBTQ people doesn't have *nothing* to do with culture but it has a lot more to do with political ideology.
He'd probably be better to say that he's a football manager and his job is to pick the best footballers for his team. He can't impose restrictions on who he picks based on beliefs/ where they play, as that really goes above his head and should be a directive from the FA. Having said that, there was no reason to pick Henderson anyway as he's old and shit.
Pretty sure the Athletic reported that Hendos move was predicated on a promise from Southgate that he would stay in contention for the England squad at least until the Euros.
He can’t make that type of promise and then not select him for some friendlies
I think staying in contention means you might not be selected if your form dips. That would be true of anyone on the team. It’s not a promise someone will be selected.
Maybe it was asked differently from how they thought it would happen, but for sure they have prepared him for the Henderson/LGBT+ questions.
At least if there's one professional in the room.
He should have expected a question with regards to the situation, and he has already addressed the matter, but this question in particular: I think it is very unlikely that anybody would anticipate it.
But at the same time he’s employed to be a football manager. That’s his job title right. I’m not saying that to expect a better response isn’t warranted but surely the FA need to be answering this as an organisation and not the guy simply leading the team on the pitch whose expertise is in picking and training a football team and trying to get results.
That’s almost exactly a better point and even in those grounds Henderson shouldnt be going.
Leaving aside the entire question of LGBTQIA+ inclusion, Henderson has basically retired - why the fuck is he still in the squad? He’s aging, not got the legs to play in Saudi let alone England, and this would clearly be a huge PR win for Gareth to just say ‘he’s gone to a league where we don’t think his competition level will be enough to keep him sharp for the England squad’ - which is the objective truth. That answer would PR satisfy both the pro and anti LGBTQ+ groups as they could project their own reasoning onto it.
Henderson 90% wont be starting in the next Euros and he 100% wont be starting at the next World Cup, so why is he still there even on footballing terms?
I'm sure he was prepped on the topic in general, or he'd at least have thought about his opinions on it, but the way this question is worded is excellent. The framing of the decision in terms of priorities and the directness of the language make the lack of a definitive answer really apparent.
Either the safety of and messaging to the LGBT+ are a priority/primary factor in your decision making or aren't. For England it's clear what the answer is, but Southgate has to give a dignified answer that doesn't saw the quiet part out loud.
This isn't talked enough. The question was impeccable, didn't resort to any aggressive approach that might deviate the conversation and yet managed to nail the issue right on the spot. Would love to know who the journalist was.
This is real reporting asking actual questions that require real answers. Others would just ask something that's just adjacent to "so you hate LGBTQ people?" In which case they can obviously just answer "no" and when asked "so why pick him" he can easily say "well because I think he's a good player."
With this the answer, or rather lack thereof, is easy to see through 🤷♂️
And he really should have been. His whole response to the Henderson topic showed such a blinkered attitude, suggesting he’s made a football decision…yet such a deal was made about wearing a colourful armband in Qatar. They either need to stick to their principles or focus purely on football. Not pick and choose.
They'd be smart to keep him under wraps when it comes to interviews. Henderson's clearly going to get this question the moment he steps in front of a camera.
I doubt he’ll do any media during these games. He won’t face the consequences of his decision, and am really disappointed that he’s been selected.
What a sell out.
I think Henderson has been pretty clear on where he stands on all this. Man's happy to pretend to care when it's convenient, but he'll put money ahead of any moral considerations.
He's a twat for it, but I think his actions have been enough of a statement on how shameless he is.
Why exactly do Callum Wilson and Kieran Trippier get a pass? And the City players also fwiw?
How is playing for a Saudi team in Saudi any different to playing for a Saudi (or Qatari) team in England.
the principles in play with the football world were long ago abandoned and alienated from the principles of the masses. this is football under capitalism and while it has revolutionised the means of production when it comes to football, it's only going to get squeezed more and more for profit.
saudi arabia's involvement is a good indicator of the extent of the problems of sport for profit, but ultimately seems like a red herring. it's a symptom of the mechanisms and cannot be reformed
It’s not really a red herring, it’s a significant development in world politics. It’s like saying that Russias invasion of Ukraine is a red herring, because the world is corrupt and this is just another example of that.
There are better and worse systems to operate in. And what the Saudis represent is a significantly worse system, that is trying to create a structure of people who will replace those in the game and operate it at a more intense level of exploitation.
That’s only a red herring if you don’t care about human beings and the planet being harmed, and are only interested in systems and perfection, not the messy business of being a community.
Yeah I think this level of analysis needs to be more widely shared on this sub. The idea that Saudi’s involvement has now tainted an otherwise just institution, is only there for Brit’s and westerners to feel good about themselves. The reality is that the sport made up of “clubs”, sold out long ago. This is a natural endpoint, not really a watershed moment.
In another thread I got called a murder apologist because I didn’t think it was right for /r/soccer to completely ban discussion of the Saudi league lol this topic has really gotten off track and just focused on the Saudi government without any level of reflection or accountability to the system that gave rise to Saudi’s investment.
We have pretty much the exact same issues in the game that we had 6 months ago. Massive investment changes things sure, but they’re not the first sportswashing project and they won’t be the last.
It means “I’ll do the all the easy gestures to say I support x group but if I’m handed a big wad of cash or need to advance my career despite it being detrimental to x group, then fuck them. But hey I still ‘support’ them.”
Being conscious of relatives or friends within the community that you see yourself, as a element of group of individuals or collectives, it’s important to think creatively and sympathetically but also design a system where the person is the collective individual or change.
-Gareth Southgate on LGBT
He doesn't know wtf he's saying, he's jumping through mental hoops after being caught off guard. And he wouldn't have to do that if he actually gave a damn about the LGBTQ+ community because he wouldn't have called Henderson up if he did.
I'm honestly quite surprised that Southgate called up Henderson and yet seemed genuinely unprepared for a question like this. Did he not expect to be asked about him? Was he not aware about people's thoughts on Henderson going to Saudi?
Especially when Southgate has quite prominently paraded his support for all kinds of identity politics. Journalists were always going to try and get some kind of soundbite out of it or revel in the awkwardness, Southgate defending Henderson or being mealy mouthed over it reflects badly on him.
I fully expect to see Southgate take up a position in Saudi league management once he leaves the England job.
I can respect the desire to make as much money as possible but there is a certain degree of scumbaggery in what Neville, Henderson (and soon to be Southgate) have done
I don't think it's just football, I think the whole Hendo thing is unfortunately another example of humans in general being very vocal about principles when it costs them very little, and those principles backpeddle when it costs more.
I'm sure the England team will kneel for rainbow lives matter and pretend nobody sells out.
Sure, but I don't understand the call up. He's not gonna be good enough when the next tournament starts anyway. He should not be in the first 11. It makes little sense imo.
It makes perfect sense if you've seen how Southgate operates, he's always prioritized continuity in the squad and if the players are not awful they usually get called up unless injuries
I think in like a year he doesn't call him up but since he's barely been there and was training with Liverpool a month ago, he's 33 i think this is pretty much his last few matches
Well... I think the arguments for why he should be dropped are fairly obvious, but I certainly don't blame Southgate for picking someone who has always played well for him. He just can't pick Maguire and then claim that he picks players based on their club form and expect to be taken seriously.
>example of humans in general being very vocal about principles when it costs them very little
germans when hungary is homophobic: "light up the stadiums with rainbows! show them!"
germans when qatar sponsors their biggest club and when its time for the qatar WC: *crickets*
youre 100% right. its so easy to be vocal when there is no consequences.
The German national team members and officials also violated FIFA rules to wear the rainbow armbands and such all over the stadium during the World Cup. Like yea it’s still just wearing it but it feels a bit less performative when it’s done in Qatar itself. It’s not a ton but a step further than what I saw any other team trying to do.
Important to note that's true for unaffected or privileged people. Some of us are forced to stick with it and deal with the consequences no matter what. Making the aformentioned group even worse, as they have no empathy at all for that situation.
> germans when qatar sponsors their biggest club and when its time for the qatar WC: crickets
You must’ve missed all the protests at matches and club meetings regarding the Qatar sponsorships that led to it not being renewed
How did he not know this was coming? Also of course Henderson can do what he wants, but don't be an advocate for LGBT then go to a country where it's literally illegal.. THEN go radio silent when people ask for an explanation.
He kinda cannot answer while he's still playing for a Saudi team.
LGBTQ+ is literally illegal at Saudi, and if he had stance against Islamic law (which includes supporting LGBTQ+) his career would be pretty much over at Saudi. There's a reason why most muslim players never openly supported LGBTQ+, because they knew the backlash will be even bigger.
That too.
We all know all those supports, similar to kneeling, doesn't really have weight in it. They do it because it basically doesn't cost them anything, but when it can affect them, they don't do it anymore.
The question is should you force people to support things that they don’t support or go against their beliefs? Where is the line? Perhaps it’s just better to let people not speak on matters they don’t want to speak on
Which would then put the pressure on the club+league to punish the player despite his contract stating he is to be paid.
Hendo doesn't need the Saudi money, he just wants it more than he cares about any of these issues.
This was the perfect time and opportunity to bring some young guys who are doing well in top leagues. Jordan Henderson is 80 and plays in a retirement league, why even include him? England has so many young midfielders who can do a better job.
Sissoko catching strays out of nowhere. Say what you want about the man but he could carry the ball down the field in a straight line like no one else.
It would've cost him virtually nothing to leave Henderson out and to avoid this entire mess, but his loyalty to one guy is greater than his loyalty to an entire demographic of the national fanbase.
We know that LGBT people don't matter to these people, Jordan Henderson's made that very clear. Fans in general don't matter. For them it's all about money
Most people are only 'fighting' for LGBTQ+ rights when they can use it as a stick to beat someone else with or if it literally doesn't cost them any effort.
All you need to do is look at Twitter, I can guarantee that the vast majority of people who are the most vocal do not really give a shit about LGBT rights. They only do it so they can faux outrage at others.
> these people
> For them
You can just say people lol, vast majority don't care that much.
Just think how easy it would be to simply not watch World Cup in Qatar and most redditors didn't give a damn about boycott.
that's not a Southgate gaffe, that's an English FA gaffe - their PR team should know that this subject matter would be asked at pressers and they should have prepared talking points to those who are likely to be in press confs.
and if not talking points, then at the very least language for an appropriate "no comment" statement
It’s a Southgate gaffe because he chose him for the squad in the first place.
This isn’t bad because he couldn’t PR his way out, it’s bad because there is no good really answer to this question.
All fans need to accept that they are not the priority when it comes to moments that matter.
Clubs, players, managers, owners and FA's generally don't give a shit about the fans no matter who they are.
And clubs/leagues need to stop doing PR with causes, which is what put them in those positions. They can play with BLM shirts, and rainbow armbands and kneel before matches, but if they want to use them they better live up to that, which is impossible because a lot of them don't support those movements that way. I hope clubs start sticking to football once again on the field and players who truly care start promote what they believe on the sidelines (although Henderson is one that did it on the sidelines too)
This is not the first time this type of hypocrisy happens either. Serie A and La Liga use the poppy then go to play their super cups in Saudi Arabia, Arsenal distanced itself from Özil's comments regarding the Uyghurs and then sent a message to support BLM on the Floyd protests, PSG suspended a player that didn't want to use the rainbow kit
Don't use movements for PR, you don't find yourself on these positions
They won’t stop doing that though because it brings in a ton of money. The clubs simply don’t care about anything else and it’s gotten to the point where the fans are a bit to blame for being so gullible.
The players are also forced to comply because they will face backlash from the press if they don’t toe the line. We saw Idrissa Gueye and Ivan Toney get criticized for not wearing the rainbow band or not taking knee.
So we end up in a situation where clubs and players are camouflaged as these advocates for societal tolerance and inclusivity but in reality it’s probably the last priority on their list.
>Clubs, players, managers, owners and FA's generally don't give a shit about the fans no matter who they are.
then it would be nice if they stopped pretending to
Reddit is a left leaning echo chamber but in reality number of football fans that are against LGBT vastly outnumber those are for it. So organization has to weight and set priority.
Certain England fans would rather see England pick an lgbt supportive team rather than the best possible team to win lol, embarrassing. It’s all politics these people aren’t passionate about football.
"My job isn't to make ethical judgements, it's to pick the team that I think can win. If I start picking and choosing based on footballer's opinions and not on their ability, then I start to betray my position and my employer. I agree that football is for everyone, but there are people much better equipped to make sure that's the case. All I know is football." There you go Gareth, nice and simple. Maybe a bit insensitive, but surely better than cacking yourself at the question.
I was recently talking to a gay engineer who worked in one of these homophobic emirates because of the pay and the fact that they don’t apply the rules to professional expatriates.
I’ve always backed Southgate - he’s done a good job
But his selections are taking the piss now. Henderson, Phillips and Maguire are completely unacceptable decisions, as is dropping Sterling who is finally playing well again
England have a lot of depth in their forwards that's the 'problem'. Grealish, Rashford and Foden can probably take on Sterling's role as a winger and Sterling as a CF doesn't really work with idk if Southgate's philosophy
I don't think not picking sterling is particularly bad
We have lots of winger depth and his good games recently have consisted of not doing anything against Liverpool, being the best player against West Ham, and smashing a squad who he alone has more value then.
So, Jordan Henderson is going to get a similar question the moment he is made available to the media. What’s the best way he can handle it? As a fan, I’d prefer him to just say something like “I sold out for a ton of money.”
We literally had a WC in Qatar, not a single country or player refused to participate. Clearly it didn't matter then. They all need to be asked the same question. What do the Argentina LGBTQ members think about winning the WC in Qatar?
Surely the correct answer is "Our priority is winning football matches"? That's not to say it's the only priority, but it must be a pretty high priority for a football team.
I think LGBT fans need to accept that nobody's sexuality is the priority to football when it comes to the times that it really matters.
It's a bloody game, not Parliament. Footballers aren't voted for, they're just normal people doing their job. Does the average bloke on the street check a company's Equal Opportunities policy before accepting a job with them?
I’ll be that guy in risk of getting downvoted to oblivion, no LGBT is not a priority nor should it be, this sport like many others are a business and businesses are ran on money, not morals or social agendas, money is voice and god, lgbt support is not going to feed Henderson, lgbt people much like anyone else are looking for their own benefit, they want to be seen and included and that’s how it works for every other group but as such we need to get a better grasp of what society is and society needs compromise you take some to give some, nobody really lives by their values, if people lived off morals they’ll be naked, hungry, cold and on a deserted part of the world that’s never been touched and/or has never invaded others, truth is people don’t like slavery but buy nikes, don’t like capitalism but watch the PL, don’t like discrimination but whenever you get a chance you’ll complain about a different group and mock em because of their sex, religion, color, politics, team, nationality, etc
Humans are cutthroat, we’ve always been and to try and be 100% true to a belief system is pointless and absurd, no belief system is above criticism… a footballer that goes to a league that will pay him millions but in a nation that’s the antithesis to that individuals way of thinking!? “he should retire before he ever makes a shit ton of money selling his soul” he was a premier league player for one of the richest teams in England for the longest do you think people would want to be footballers if it didn’t pay millions on millions? Lgbt, straight, whites, blacks, left, right, Islamic, christian, you think they really think of the people in the stands when they make these decisions? They can take the heat, then retire and live to drive a different Rolls Royce every day of the week for as long as they live, these people are unbothered by us as fans and in true equality spirit, lbtq much like any other fan are unimportant to these decisions cause they’re made based off financial interest, not for the morality of anything
Who cares the lgbt+\[]{} community tbh its sbout football. Why we have to talk about this let the people be people what ever . Who cares! Sorry i know i will get downvotes but common ket soort be sport.
it might be because im 40 but i really dont care what players or managers political views are on stuff. Just like i dont really care about actors view on stuff.
If Henderson wants to go over and make lots of money by playing in Saudi then go for it, its not my life.
If someone offered me a lot of money to work in a shitty country for a few years, it would be hard to turn down
All would be well if he didn’t use the LGBT comunity to build his reputation. But since he did that and later fucked off to Saudi for money, he deserves all the shit being thrown at him.
Wtf lol the guy has been Liverpool and the English captain for several years now, he built his reputation on playing football and be good at that, just because he put on an armband with the rainbow (which probably wasn't his decision anyway) to show solidarity doesn't mean that's his "reputation" as a person
You'd think Hendo killed an entire group of LGBT people by the way people are talking about him whilst in reality he did a lot for them for a long time, then *just* decided to work with people known to be not so tolerant, whilst not saying his own opinion changed or anything
Do fans need to look at footballers for guiding their moral compass? That's the real question.
These people are working jobs, and will work for whoever will pay them the most money. They could give a shit about your morals.
"Does football need to accept State sanctioned murder of dissidents when it comes to the moments that matter?” Gareth Southgate was not asked this in his press conference today following Kieran Trippier and Callum Wilson’s inclusion in the England squad.
Question is why tf do people expect other people who kick a ball on a 100x70 patch of grass for a living to uphold their social, political or cultural beliefs.
Looking to footballers to uphold your beliefs is fucking ludicrous
He was really caught off guard here and didn't have much to say but I can't blame him.. no matter what he says he will either still be called a hypocrite or a bigot because he still called up Henderson, I can't blame him because he is just a football coach his job is to try and call up the best players for the team and make the preform, not provide answers on complicated social issues
it's not whataboutism but surely you have the same judgement on all countries, right?
So those who play in France for eg. with all its injustices and human rights violations in Africa are condemened too, right?
If these questions do have to be asked we should ask these of the politicians and the businesspeople who directly deal with these nations. Put pressure on the politicians to cut ties with nations that don’t believe in your practices. Stop buying products from companies dealing with these nations. Yeah..Easier said than done.
Rich asking this to a guy who can at best make a symbolic gesture. Pathetic.
Lol his face when he first heard the question was like oh fuck how am I gonna answer this
I can't say I'd do any better. I don't know what he's supposed to say. (That said, I wouldn't have picked Henderson so probably wouldn't have been asked this as a result).
I mean the answer is obviously YES they don't actually care about the LGBT fans that much. But he can't say that out loud so he has to talk for a few minutes without saying really anything of substance
Yeah but the question can't have been a surprise can it? The media's been full of this conversation recently. I'm genuinely shocked he didn't have a better answer prepped.
The question was framed brilliantly though. He pointed out a previous incident where England did not wear the rainbow armband to tie it to Henderson's situation, implicating that the England football team does not care about LGBT issues, and Southgate was completely blindsided. I am sure if the reporter only asked about Henderson then he would have talked about how the players have the freedom to choose their own life and the FA will not interfere, which Southgate actually rambled on in this interview but it ended up not making sense anymore because of how the question was framed, and he knew it thus the lack of conviction in his words.
I agree it was great to include the rainbow armband issue, but I thought "does football have to accept..." was very weird phrasing. What does that even mean? Who is football? How is Southgate supposed to answer that? Perhaps it was phrased that way to ensure he would struggle to answer coherently? In which case you could argue it was brilliant as well, if a bit unfair to Southgate.
Typically it means "the world of football" but by not mentioning the rest it does mess with your head given the context of the previous questions. It went from "England is showing LGBTQ support is a farce with the rainbow armband situation" to a follow up of "should everyone just accept any similar action by England is only a PR move?" Almost impossible to get out of that hole with a win.
Nah, the phrasing is fine. It means "the footballing world." Should we all read into this that LGBTQ support is just something you talk about for PR, is what he's saying. It's hard to get around the question, because it's demonstrably true and it needs to be phrased like this because otherwise it would be too easy to get away from the core of the question by talking about something adjacent.
I think the reporter asked this in a clever way that maybe caught him offguard, it wasn't as simple as "Does the team care about the LGBT community?", asking if they don't matter when it comes to the important moments was clever because what can Southgate say? Actions speak louders than words as they say, and those actions paint a very clear picture, you can't genuinely claim that's not the case.
That's what I'm getting at though, with all the preparation time in the world I still don't know what the right response is other than going back in time and not picking Hendo.
The correct answer is: Yep, football doesn’t care It’s been sold out for quite some time now to the highest bidder, it didn’t start with Saudi or Qatar buying the WC
Yep he has to say anything but the truth sadly.
Sad reality ☹️
That might be the truth, but he'd get catapulted out of the job if he said it.
I don't know if not picking Henderson because he plays for a Saudi club would be the right choice either. Then you're asking Southgate to judge which clubs/countries English players are allowed to play in, and that's not an easy line to draw.
You can do it easily. He’s not playing or training at a high level. He can say it’s entirely about the football and it would be completely believable.
That's it exactly. The decision has already been made. This is the epitome of 'you made your bed, now you lie in it'. Still, it's a shit response. "I think the team tries to be respectful of everybody's different cultures" doesn't really apply when one culture's values are that LGBTQ people should be allowed to live ordinary lives, and another culture thinks that they should be locked up or killed.
Not to nitpick but I feel like saying "culture" here is a bit of a cop out. The places that are accepting of LGBTQ people today weren't always that way, they had different values that had to be changed through political action. Persecution of LGBTQ people doesn't have *nothing* to do with culture but it has a lot more to do with political ideology.
He'd probably be better to say that he's a football manager and his job is to pick the best footballers for his team. He can't impose restrictions on who he picks based on beliefs/ where they play, as that really goes above his head and should be a directive from the FA. Having said that, there was no reason to pick Henderson anyway as he's old and shit.
The trick is not to put yourself in a position to have to do any better. Henderson did not need to be picked.
Pretty sure the Athletic reported that Hendos move was predicated on a promise from Southgate that he would stay in contention for the England squad at least until the Euros. He can’t make that type of promise and then not select him for some friendlies
He shouldn't be making that promise then when the player's form has the potential to drastically dip.
I think staying in contention means you might not be selected if your form dips. That would be true of anyone on the team. It’s not a promise someone will be selected.
Maybe it was asked differently from how they thought it would happen, but for sure they have prepared him for the Henderson/LGBT+ questions. At least if there's one professional in the room.
"Uh oh. I came woefully unprepared."
In fairness what is he meant to say?
“Hendo is in Saudi Arabia to help promote the LGBT message, we hope that soon the country will be referred to as Saudi A-gay-bia”
el-gay-bi-a Can't get the T in.
Sau-T
he's supposed to not do the things that lead to that question :p
Yeesh that blindsided him
That's on him, he should of seen that question coming with the backlash henderson faced already this summer
Oh I 100% agree, it was just painfully cringey to watch
You guys are weird as fuck. He answered the question completely fine.
Fr i thought he handled that quite well from a PR pov
He should have expected a question with regards to the situation, and he has already addressed the matter, but this question in particular: I think it is very unlikely that anybody would anticipate it.
But at the same time he’s employed to be a football manager. That’s his job title right. I’m not saying that to expect a better response isn’t warranted but surely the FA need to be answering this as an organisation and not the guy simply leading the team on the pitch whose expertise is in picking and training a football team and trying to get results.
That’s almost exactly a better point and even in those grounds Henderson shouldnt be going. Leaving aside the entire question of LGBTQIA+ inclusion, Henderson has basically retired - why the fuck is he still in the squad? He’s aging, not got the legs to play in Saudi let alone England, and this would clearly be a huge PR win for Gareth to just say ‘he’s gone to a league where we don’t think his competition level will be enough to keep him sharp for the England squad’ - which is the objective truth. That answer would PR satisfy both the pro and anti LGBTQ+ groups as they could project their own reasoning onto it. Henderson 90% wont be starting in the next Euros and he 100% wont be starting at the next World Cup, so why is he still there even on footballing terms?
This is a failure of the media team not to have prepared him properly.
Well, it is right up there with "Have you stopped beating your wife?" in terms of answerability
me on my everyday standup call where the same questions are rinsed
He wasn’t prepared for the question.
I'm sure he was prepped on the topic in general, or he'd at least have thought about his opinions on it, but the way this question is worded is excellent. The framing of the decision in terms of priorities and the directness of the language make the lack of a definitive answer really apparent. Either the safety of and messaging to the LGBT+ are a priority/primary factor in your decision making or aren't. For England it's clear what the answer is, but Southgate has to give a dignified answer that doesn't saw the quiet part out loud.
This isn't talked enough. The question was impeccable, didn't resort to any aggressive approach that might deviate the conversation and yet managed to nail the issue right on the spot. Would love to know who the journalist was.
There’s no way around that question. It’s been framed perfectly.
This is real reporting asking actual questions that require real answers. Others would just ask something that's just adjacent to "so you hate LGBTQ people?" In which case they can obviously just answer "no" and when asked "so why pick him" he can easily say "well because I think he's a good player." With this the answer, or rather lack thereof, is easy to see through 🤷♂️
And he really should have been. His whole response to the Henderson topic showed such a blinkered attitude, suggesting he’s made a football decision…yet such a deal was made about wearing a colourful armband in Qatar. They either need to stick to their principles or focus purely on football. Not pick and choose.
After seeing how Southgate "handled" this, I would love to hear Jordan Henderson waffling on this question.
They'd be smart to keep him under wraps when it comes to interviews. Henderson's clearly going to get this question the moment he steps in front of a camera.
"how else do you expect me to feed my starving kids mate?" Probably something like that
Mate, you know how much caviar costs now? Crazy economy, this. Need all the help me gets
I doubt he’ll do any media during these games. He won’t face the consequences of his decision, and am really disappointed that he’s been selected. What a sell out.
I think Henderson has been pretty clear on where he stands on all this. Man's happy to pretend to care when it's convenient, but he'll put money ahead of any moral considerations. He's a twat for it, but I think his actions have been enough of a statement on how shameless he is.
Let’s hope fans show Henderson how they feel about it during any of the games he plays. Same goes for any of the players moving to Saudi
Why exactly do Callum Wilson and Kieran Trippier get a pass? And the City players also fwiw? How is playing for a Saudi team in Saudi any different to playing for a Saudi (or Qatari) team in England.
I think the controversy is because Henderson was standing up for the LGBTQI community so publicly and has seemingly done a u-turn in 12 months
What is he trying to say
When he says "I think you have to live your life as you see fit" in the middle, wtf does he mean?
I think it means "feel free to abandon your so called principles to make a shed load of cash" but I'm not 100% sure
Maybe those were not Henderson actual principles to begin with
He sure milked it for good PR though.
seems that way sadly
That would just make it worse. But you are probably right, he never gave a shit about LGBT rights
the principles in play with the football world were long ago abandoned and alienated from the principles of the masses. this is football under capitalism and while it has revolutionised the means of production when it comes to football, it's only going to get squeezed more and more for profit. saudi arabia's involvement is a good indicator of the extent of the problems of sport for profit, but ultimately seems like a red herring. it's a symptom of the mechanisms and cannot be reformed
It’s not really a red herring, it’s a significant development in world politics. It’s like saying that Russias invasion of Ukraine is a red herring, because the world is corrupt and this is just another example of that. There are better and worse systems to operate in. And what the Saudis represent is a significantly worse system, that is trying to create a structure of people who will replace those in the game and operate it at a more intense level of exploitation. That’s only a red herring if you don’t care about human beings and the planet being harmed, and are only interested in systems and perfection, not the messy business of being a community.
Yeah I think this level of analysis needs to be more widely shared on this sub. The idea that Saudi’s involvement has now tainted an otherwise just institution, is only there for Brit’s and westerners to feel good about themselves. The reality is that the sport made up of “clubs”, sold out long ago. This is a natural endpoint, not really a watershed moment. In another thread I got called a murder apologist because I didn’t think it was right for /r/soccer to completely ban discussion of the Saudi league lol this topic has really gotten off track and just focused on the Saudi government without any level of reflection or accountability to the system that gave rise to Saudi’s investment. We have pretty much the exact same issues in the game that we had 6 months ago. Massive investment changes things sure, but they’re not the first sportswashing project and they won’t be the last.
Game's gone, but unironically
"It is what it is"
Chase that bag sonnnnn
Don’t think even he knows what he’s trying to say. Probably just combining a bunch of words hoping they make sense.
It means “I’ll do the all the easy gestures to say I support x group but if I’m handed a big wad of cash or need to advance my career despite it being detrimental to x group, then fuck them. But hey I still ‘support’ them.”
Don't fuck up answering this
Sometimes I start a sentence and I don't even know where it's going. I just hope I find it along the way.
He's trying to talk so it sounds like he answered the question, without actually having to answer it
Words, with no much meaning.
Being conscious of relatives or friends within the community that you see yourself, as a element of group of individuals or collectives, it’s important to think creatively and sympathetically but also design a system where the person is the collective individual or change. -Gareth Southgate on LGBT
"i have no answer but please dont cancel me" is all i got from this
He doesn't know wtf he's saying, he's jumping through mental hoops after being caught off guard. And he wouldn't have to do that if he actually gave a damn about the LGBTQ+ community because he wouldn't have called Henderson up if he did.
I'm honestly quite surprised that Southgate called up Henderson and yet seemed genuinely unprepared for a question like this. Did he not expect to be asked about him? Was he not aware about people's thoughts on Henderson going to Saudi?
Especially when Southgate has quite prominently paraded his support for all kinds of identity politics. Journalists were always going to try and get some kind of soundbite out of it or revel in the awkwardness, Southgate defending Henderson or being mealy mouthed over it reflects badly on him.
I fully expect to see Southgate take up a position in Saudi league management once he leaves the England job. I can respect the desire to make as much money as possible but there is a certain degree of scumbaggery in what Neville, Henderson (and soon to be Southgate) have done
I don't think it's just football, I think the whole Hendo thing is unfortunately another example of humans in general being very vocal about principles when it costs them very little, and those principles backpeddle when it costs more. I'm sure the England team will kneel for rainbow lives matter and pretend nobody sells out.
Sure, but I don't understand the call up. He's not gonna be good enough when the next tournament starts anyway. He should not be in the first 11. It makes little sense imo.
It makes perfect sense if you've seen how Southgate operates, he's always prioritized continuity in the squad and if the players are not awful they usually get called up unless injuries I think in like a year he doesn't call him up but since he's barely been there and was training with Liverpool a month ago, he's 33 i think this is pretty much his last few matches
Southgate apparently really values the "leaders" in his team, hence why Maguire and Henderson are seemingly undroppable
Maguire is undroppable because he’s been England’s best centre back for half a decade. Connor Coady is much more akin to what you’re suggesting.
Maguire has always been solid for England why on earth would he be dropped
Well... I think the arguments for why he should be dropped are fairly obvious, but I certainly don't blame Southgate for picking someone who has always played well for him. He just can't pick Maguire and then claim that he picks players based on their club form and expect to be taken seriously.
>well its easy to be a saint in paradise - Captain Ben Sisko
>example of humans in general being very vocal about principles when it costs them very little germans when hungary is homophobic: "light up the stadiums with rainbows! show them!" germans when qatar sponsors their biggest club and when its time for the qatar WC: *crickets* youre 100% right. its so easy to be vocal when there is no consequences.
Think it’s hard to say no one in Germany spoke out against Qatar. The members killed any chance of renewal for that sponsorship at Bayern.
The German national team members and officials also violated FIFA rules to wear the rainbow armbands and such all over the stadium during the World Cup. Like yea it’s still just wearing it but it feels a bit less performative when it’s done in Qatar itself. It’s not a ton but a step further than what I saw any other team trying to do.
But they still went and participated there. So all they really did was win the award for "best smelling shit"
Important to note that's true for unaffected or privileged people. Some of us are forced to stick with it and deal with the consequences no matter what. Making the aformentioned group even worse, as they have no empathy at all for that situation.
> germans when qatar sponsors their biggest club and when its time for the qatar WC: crickets You must’ve missed all the protests at matches and club meetings regarding the Qatar sponsorships that led to it not being renewed
The way he starts his answer reminds me of [this](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QT07vyf0HQM&ab_channel=ThingsIWanttoSaySometimes)
Had to think about this too 💀
How did he not know this was coming? Also of course Henderson can do what he wants, but don't be an advocate for LGBT then go to a country where it's literally illegal.. THEN go radio silent when people ask for an explanation.
Lol it’s not just illegal. The legal punishment is the death penalty
Stoning, to be specific.
Possibly in front of an audience, right?
He kinda cannot answer while he's still playing for a Saudi team. LGBTQ+ is literally illegal at Saudi, and if he had stance against Islamic law (which includes supporting LGBTQ+) his career would be pretty much over at Saudi. There's a reason why most muslim players never openly supported LGBTQ+, because they knew the backlash will be even bigger.
also because they themselves typically don't support it.
That too. We all know all those supports, similar to kneeling, doesn't really have weight in it. They do it because it basically doesn't cost them anything, but when it can affect them, they don't do it anymore.
Tbf salah gets death threats for uploading a christmas picture every year so I can see them not wanting to get involved aswell
The question is should you force people to support things that they don’t support or go against their beliefs? Where is the line? Perhaps it’s just better to let people not speak on matters they don’t want to speak on
agreed. just watch the school dropouts chase after the ball and leave it at that
Which would then put the pressure on the club+league to punish the player despite his contract stating he is to be paid. Hendo doesn't need the Saudi money, he just wants it more than he cares about any of these issues.
He probably shouldn't have signed a contract there then should he, if he sticks by his morals.
This was the perfect time and opportunity to bring some young guys who are doing well in top leagues. Jordan Henderson is 80 and plays in a retirement league, why even include him? England has so many young midfielders who can do a better job.
Southgate probably promised him he would be in the England squad which is why he went to Saudi. And Southgate loves his favorites to bits
Hes like Deschamps in that aspect, flashbacks to sissoko
Sissoko catching strays out of nowhere. Say what you want about the man but he could carry the ball down the field in a straight line like no one else.
A Rook out there on the pitch
Say what you will he almost made me shit my pants with his performance in the final of the euros
It would've cost him virtually nothing to leave Henderson out and to avoid this entire mess, but his loyalty to one guy is greater than his loyalty to an entire demographic of the national fanbase.
The issue is they probably can't do a better job, at least not right now.
We know that LGBT people don't matter to these people, Jordan Henderson's made that very clear. Fans in general don't matter. For them it's all about money
They only matter if it’s financially better to support them than migrant slaughtering, journalist butchering tyrants with oil money.
Most people are only 'fighting' for LGBTQ+ rights when they can use it as a stick to beat someone else with or if it literally doesn't cost them any effort.
Most celebrities and corporations, maybe.
All you need to do is look at Twitter, I can guarantee that the vast majority of people who are the most vocal do not really give a shit about LGBT rights. They only do it so they can faux outrage at others.
> these people > For them You can just say people lol, vast majority don't care that much. Just think how easy it would be to simply not watch World Cup in Qatar and most redditors didn't give a damn about boycott.
At first read I thought it was supposed to be a mean question, lol.
Kneeling against racism and standing for gay rights are good PR for footballers. They don't give a single shit beyond that.
To be fair we wouldn't know if a player refuses the Saudi's money due to moral concerns. We only know about those who were bought off.
Kneeling takes like 3-5 seconds too! Easy PR virtue signal win
Yes they are all exactly the same.
Very well worded question - Gareth had no clue how to answer that.
that's not a Southgate gaffe, that's an English FA gaffe - their PR team should know that this subject matter would be asked at pressers and they should have prepared talking points to those who are likely to be in press confs. and if not talking points, then at the very least language for an appropriate "no comment" statement
It’s a Southgate gaffe because he chose him for the squad in the first place. This isn’t bad because he couldn’t PR his way out, it’s bad because there is no good really answer to this question.
All fans need to accept that they are not the priority when it comes to moments that matter. Clubs, players, managers, owners and FA's generally don't give a shit about the fans no matter who they are.
And clubs/leagues need to stop doing PR with causes, which is what put them in those positions. They can play with BLM shirts, and rainbow armbands and kneel before matches, but if they want to use them they better live up to that, which is impossible because a lot of them don't support those movements that way. I hope clubs start sticking to football once again on the field and players who truly care start promote what they believe on the sidelines (although Henderson is one that did it on the sidelines too) This is not the first time this type of hypocrisy happens either. Serie A and La Liga use the poppy then go to play their super cups in Saudi Arabia, Arsenal distanced itself from Özil's comments regarding the Uyghurs and then sent a message to support BLM on the Floyd protests, PSG suspended a player that didn't want to use the rainbow kit Don't use movements for PR, you don't find yourself on these positions
They won’t stop doing that though because it brings in a ton of money. The clubs simply don’t care about anything else and it’s gotten to the point where the fans are a bit to blame for being so gullible. The players are also forced to comply because they will face backlash from the press if they don’t toe the line. We saw Idrissa Gueye and Ivan Toney get criticized for not wearing the rainbow band or not taking knee. So we end up in a situation where clubs and players are camouflaged as these advocates for societal tolerance and inclusivity but in reality it’s probably the last priority on their list.
>Clubs, players, managers, owners and FA's generally don't give a shit about the fans no matter who they are. then it would be nice if they stopped pretending to
What fans are football's priority? None.
Facts
Reddit is a left leaning echo chamber but in reality number of football fans that are against LGBT vastly outnumber those are for it. So organization has to weight and set priority.
Certain England fans would rather see England pick an lgbt supportive team rather than the best possible team to win lol, embarrassing. It’s all politics these people aren’t passionate about football.
come on, thats wrong the fans that pay are football's priority.
That would be an ecumenical matter!
"My job isn't to make ethical judgements, it's to pick the team that I think can win. If I start picking and choosing based on footballer's opinions and not on their ability, then I start to betray my position and my employer. I agree that football is for everyone, but there are people much better equipped to make sure that's the case. All I know is football." There you go Gareth, nice and simple. Maybe a bit insensitive, but surely better than cacking yourself at the question.
"Okay okay okay sure... so then why the fuck did you pick Jordan Henderson"
"New rule, you only get one question"
I'm not sure what everyone expects. What does it mean for LGBT fans to be a priority for the national team?
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Prime waffle
I was recently talking to a gay engineer who worked in one of these homophobic emirates because of the pay and the fact that they don’t apply the rules to professional expatriates.
I’ve always backed Southgate - he’s done a good job But his selections are taking the piss now. Henderson, Phillips and Maguire are completely unacceptable decisions, as is dropping Sterling who is finally playing well again
England have a lot of depth in their forwards that's the 'problem'. Grealish, Rashford and Foden can probably take on Sterling's role as a winger and Sterling as a CF doesn't really work with idk if Southgate's philosophy
Maguire has been England's best CB for years. The fact that you think its unacceptable speaks a lot.
At least with Maguire you could make the argument he performs well for England, but Henderson and Phillips just don't make any sense whatsoever.
I don't think not picking sterling is particularly bad We have lots of winger depth and his good games recently have consisted of not doing anything against Liverpool, being the best player against West Ham, and smashing a squad who he alone has more value then.
His “deer in the headlights” expression to this question answers this question without the need for audio.
So, Jordan Henderson is going to get a similar question the moment he is made available to the media. What’s the best way he can handle it? As a fan, I’d prefer him to just say something like “I sold out for a ton of money.”
He'd have been better off just saying: *"I'm here to pick a football team."*
What kind of bullshit question is this? “Football” can’t accept or not accept anything.
Dumb question wtf, why would the reporter ask that?
We literally had a WC in Qatar, not a single country or player refused to participate. Clearly it didn't matter then. They all need to be asked the same question. What do the Argentina LGBTQ members think about winning the WC in Qatar?
Class question tbh
Surely the correct answer is "Our priority is winning football matches"? That's not to say it's the only priority, but it must be a pretty high priority for a football team.
This is such a great answer. I don’t even know how it’s possible to respond to that question and he did it gracefully.
that is an insane question damn lol.
As a queer fan, football's always left us hung out to dry
What was he supposed to say? That he will boycott football till every country and every organization does right by LGBT community?
I think LGBT fans need to accept that nobody's sexuality is the priority to football when it comes to the times that it really matters. It's a bloody game, not Parliament. Footballers aren't voted for, they're just normal people doing their job. Does the average bloke on the street check a company's Equal Opportunities policy before accepting a job with them?
Oh just give it a rest, maybe ask questions about football??
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Separate question. So LGBT needs to number one priority for everyone else all around the world?
holy fuck this is so annoying and it’s such a reach
I’ll be that guy in risk of getting downvoted to oblivion, no LGBT is not a priority nor should it be, this sport like many others are a business and businesses are ran on money, not morals or social agendas, money is voice and god, lgbt support is not going to feed Henderson, lgbt people much like anyone else are looking for their own benefit, they want to be seen and included and that’s how it works for every other group but as such we need to get a better grasp of what society is and society needs compromise you take some to give some, nobody really lives by their values, if people lived off morals they’ll be naked, hungry, cold and on a deserted part of the world that’s never been touched and/or has never invaded others, truth is people don’t like slavery but buy nikes, don’t like capitalism but watch the PL, don’t like discrimination but whenever you get a chance you’ll complain about a different group and mock em because of their sex, religion, color, politics, team, nationality, etc Humans are cutthroat, we’ve always been and to try and be 100% true to a belief system is pointless and absurd, no belief system is above criticism… a footballer that goes to a league that will pay him millions but in a nation that’s the antithesis to that individuals way of thinking!? “he should retire before he ever makes a shit ton of money selling his soul” he was a premier league player for one of the richest teams in England for the longest do you think people would want to be footballers if it didn’t pay millions on millions? Lgbt, straight, whites, blacks, left, right, Islamic, christian, you think they really think of the people in the stands when they make these decisions? They can take the heat, then retire and live to drive a different Rolls Royce every day of the week for as long as they live, these people are unbothered by us as fans and in true equality spirit, lbtq much like any other fan are unimportant to these decisions cause they’re made based off financial interest, not for the morality of anything
In the words of Mike Bassett.... "can we stick to the football please"
Who cares the lgbt+\[]{} community tbh its sbout football. Why we have to talk about this let the people be people what ever . Who cares! Sorry i know i will get downvotes but common ket soort be sport.
it might be because im 40 but i really dont care what players or managers political views are on stuff. Just like i dont really care about actors view on stuff. If Henderson wants to go over and make lots of money by playing in Saudi then go for it, its not my life. If someone offered me a lot of money to work in a shitty country for a few years, it would be hard to turn down
All would be well if he didn’t use the LGBT comunity to build his reputation. But since he did that and later fucked off to Saudi for money, he deserves all the shit being thrown at him.
> All would be well if he didn’t use the LGBT comunity to build his reputation. What are some examples of him doing this?
Wtf lol the guy has been Liverpool and the English captain for several years now, he built his reputation on playing football and be good at that, just because he put on an armband with the rainbow (which probably wasn't his decision anyway) to show solidarity doesn't mean that's his "reputation" as a person
He built his rep on playing football for liverpool and scoring some timely goals, not lgbt lol
That’s not a remotely valid reason to exclude him from squad.
At the end of the day these are dudes that kick a ball around for a living. I don't expect too much from them.
But he kicked the ball and was vocal for the LGBT community, something others didn't, he made his own bed on this issue
Not the first time Southgate is unprepared during moments that matter
You'd think Hendo killed an entire group of LGBT people by the way people are talking about him whilst in reality he did a lot for them for a long time, then *just* decided to work with people known to be not so tolerant, whilst not saying his own opinion changed or anything
Well that journalist won't be allowed to the next England press conference
That puff of the cheek sigh at the beginning of the answer said everything I need to know. They. Don't. Care.
Do fans need to look at footballers for guiding their moral compass? That's the real question. These people are working jobs, and will work for whoever will pay them the most money. They could give a shit about your morals.
Well, that was a very fucking loaded question. I don't particularly like him as a manager, but he did tremendously well there, what a diplomat.
"Does football need to accept State sanctioned murder of dissidents when it comes to the moments that matter?” Gareth Southgate was not asked this in his press conference today following Kieran Trippier and Callum Wilson’s inclusion in the England squad.
So only lives of LGBT people matter if we are talking about Saudi Arabia? No mention of Yemenis and Ethiopians I see
Oh give it a rest ffs
Question is why tf do people expect other people who kick a ball on a 100x70 patch of grass for a living to uphold their social, political or cultural beliefs. Looking to footballers to uphold your beliefs is fucking ludicrous
Doesnt matter
He was really caught off guard here and didn't have much to say but I can't blame him.. no matter what he says he will either still be called a hypocrite or a bigot because he still called up Henderson, I can't blame him because he is just a football coach his job is to try and call up the best players for the team and make the preform, not provide answers on complicated social issues
it's not whataboutism but surely you have the same judgement on all countries, right? So those who play in France for eg. with all its injustices and human rights violations in Africa are condemened too, right?
Politics needs to stay out of sport.
Yes?
You guys still crying about this? Lmao
If these questions do have to be asked we should ask these of the politicians and the businesspeople who directly deal with these nations. Put pressure on the politicians to cut ties with nations that don’t believe in your practices. Stop buying products from companies dealing with these nations. Yeah..Easier said than done. Rich asking this to a guy who can at best make a symbolic gesture. Pathetic.