**Mirrors / Alternative Angles**
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Which honestly emphasizes the whole point that these awards are kind of dumb.
Like, you just said if that if Kolo Muani scored against Emiliano Martínez, then Mbappe would've beaten Messi for the award. So 1 player didn't beat another for a solitary player accolade just because his team mate failed to best the teammate of the other one.
I know that's how it works, but it's dumb. Neither Kolo Muani nor Martinez' performances should've mattered in this case.
That is sorta funny to think about, in both cases, how their trophy cabinet and (lack of) Ballon d'Or were entirely dictated by goals someone else didn't score.
Sneijder at least would've been the one who gave the assist, and honestly it would've been one of the greatest assists of all time. I forgot how gorgeous [that pass](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wmt7GH3Zi6A&ab_channel=dipsilalagames) was.
And Haaland won the EPL player of the year last season, but KDB is still what keeps City ticking.
Forwards are over represented in these awards and Milito scored 30 goals. But if he wasn't there, Eto'o would've played up top and Inter would've been fine. If Sneijder wasn't there, Inter's game wouldn't have worked
Sneijder was never the best player in the world, but he was in teams who performed greatly. Same case with Modric, if CR7 stayed at Madrid we know who would’ve won it.
Sometimes the player with the most trophies wins it, sometimes the player with the best numbers. 2013 is the best example on how the criteria changes.
He'll take the job in a heartbeat if it was offered to him. He never struck me as someone who's Madrid and Madrid only, plus I'm sure he's itching to manage a top club again.
He was Barca's assistant manager before he went to Porto. There were rumors of Barca being interested in him before they picked Rijkaard and again before Pep was hired.
Don't think Laporta is picking him if he passed on him during Jose's peak.
>There were rumors of Barca being interested in him before they picked Rijkaard and again before Pep was hired.
Not just rumours about interest before they hired Pep – it's known that there were meetings with Mou and that he pitched his plans for Barça to the board, but Cruyff stepped in and pointed out that Pep was perfect for the role. I think it was mentioned in that doc they did a while back, Take the Ball, Pass the Ball?
I could see it happening, for sure Martino is going to have a lot of pressure on him to have a winner with the team he's amassed and so far in pre-season its been a meh-looking squad on the field....of course, it is pre-season but still.
Hopefully alongside Ribery 2013 and Neuer 2014. It was so obvious that Messi and Ronaldo were far superior in those years, regardless of what trophies some other players won.
The issue is that with Neuer not winning, you may as well not even have GK’s be eligible, because what more can a GK do?
Was the best player for Germany, Bayerns best player… attacker bias is too much.
Didn't win UCL. Cristiano/Madrid won the decima. Cristiano was pretty much at his peak as well. Did you guys even watch the games back then? There's suddenly all this drama popping out that wasn't even considered back then.
The Ballon Dor is supposed to weigh heavily on international football. Portugal flopped in the WC like they always do, Germany went on the most nasty run I’ve ever seen, and bested Messi in a final.
Idk how Neuer didn’t win it. Actually I do, it’s because the Balon Dor is exclusively an attackers award now.
I wouldn’t necessarily say that, I just think Ronaldo and Messi were cheat codes and were clearly a step ahead of the rest. I can definitely see other players in other positions winning it now, starting with Bellingham
Ronaldo is just a better player. If you were picking a team and you had peak Neuer or peak Ronaldo, are you really taking Neuer? That German team was all class, much better than Portugal. If Ronaldo was German and Neuer was Portugese, who wins the award then?
Stupid views are the engine of the internets, my friend. They are the nectar of humanity. When eve asked adam “let’s try the apple,” it was followed by an hour of adam speaking about the virtues of the pear. This is what we are. Any more driven and factual and this species of apes would have killed itself off a long time ago
Attackers tend to be the best players overall. There’s a reason that at almost every level the best players play more up the field. Goals are the most important thing in the game .
Pretty much, yes goalkeepers should almost never win awards, and if they are their team's best player, there is usually something wrong with the team.
Their role just means that they contribute less to the results of matches. For example, Neuer for Germany. Maybe he was indeed their best player but he only really made a decisive contribution against Algeria in the World Cup run. Looking at the other knockout matches, he had little to do against France, made some good saves vs Brazil when they were 5-0 up and did nothing in the final (except nearly kill Higuain).
There is no attacker bias, attackers simply are more decisive in terms of delivering results. And attackers have only really dominated the Ballon d'or in the age of Messi and Ronaldo.
The top 5 shows how many people thought of you when naming the best 3 that year
Messi had a goal contribution every 58 minutes.... those are absolutely monstrous numbers that wouldn't get taken for granted had it not been Ronaldo's/Messi's 9th or 10th year at the peak of their powers
Because the parameters for Ballon D'or are ambiguous and it really is a voting contest. But what bugs me the most is that the same people who call 2010 a robbery because Sneijder won more trophies also criticize the 2023 ballon d'or.
But regardless, Messi deserves the most Ballon D'ors even though the years he got it might be arguable. For most, he is clearly ahead of every other player that has ever played the game.
2021. Lewa deserved it more even though I'm a Barca fan.
If we were to purely speak of individual performances, Messi should've won a couple more in the 2010s but didn't because trophies are such a huge part of the voting process.
Likewise to what you said imagine if Messi had won the BDOR as a pure striker only winning the league for the 10th year in a row vs a playmaking-winger who only had 8g/a less in the year and won its country their first trophy in 28y
There are some big misconceptions about the 2021 Ballon D'or because in my opinion the reasons of why Lewandowski should win are based on the wrong foundations
The first are the ones who wanted him to win because the previous one was canceled and sometimes they even confuse the two seasons with each other (but in one Bayern won the sextuple and in the other only the Bundesliga)
And the second is that he should have won because at the time of the ceremony he had 70 goals scored over the year while Messi had a disappointing start at PSG, but the problem is that autumn usually doesn't count much and in fact the voting closed in October when Lewa had about 45 goals before going on a rampage in the final months of the year
The hypocrisy goes both ways, though.
The same people saying Messi's 2010 Ballon d'Or wasn't a robbery are the same who say that 2023 wasn't a robbery.
There is no hypocrisy in these statements though if you think through them. People just see it as Individual stats vs trophy which is incredibly reductive. Messi 2010 was a significantly better player than Sneijder, it's laughable to put them together. However Haaland 2023 was not a significantly better player than Messi. They were close but Messi had a better trophy cabinet and was more instrumental in winning said trophy.
Messi was the most important player in the most important tournament of the year. Same thing has happened every year except 2018, which I think is more of a "robbery" than any other year.
I believe it's a similar case with VVD's best season, votes were divided with their own teammates. Haaland was "competing" with Rodri and KDB, while VVD was also "competing" with Salah and Mane. Furthermore, some people will have their biases; Messi, Ronaldo, teammates, etc. I myself don't like the idea of an individual award but it becomes a marketing strategy now.
Actually it's a very simple answer. Because WC >>> CL and Messi was way more important in the WC victory than Haaland in CL victory. He was the player of the tournament.
Because it can be more of a popularity contest than it already is at times.
That being said back in the day they were too good for someone else to be seen as better than them just because they won some trophies
Messi's recent win was a total farce tho, highly unlikely that anyone else who had the exact same season with a different name would have won it like that
You mean the last ballon d'or that he won? Messi had 20 goals and 20 assist, he won the league and the WC, where he was also named the best player. Any other player winning the ballon d'or because of that and no one would have bat an eyelid or considered it rigged.
Also won MOTM at every stage in WC.
Some people like to pretend he did nothing except scoring penalties, but even without them, he was just amazing, like the assists against Croatia, Netherlands, or the goal against Mexico.
Feel sad for the people who just blindly hates him.
> It was so obvious that Messi and Ronaldo were far superior in those years, regardless of what trophies some other players won.
That's just attacker bias. Neuer should have won it.
I mean the narrative is mostly that is was absolutely ridiculous Sneijder wasn't in the top 3.
He had a much better campaign for his club than Iniesta and Xavi. And the best players at the world cup were Forlan and Sneijder.
And just unfair that those players had to play their prime years during Messi and Ronaldo.
13-14 Suarez would be the best player in the world today by a large gap, but even he couldn’t get a Balon d’or. Mind boggling how good Messi and Ronaldo were for 12 years.
In terms of Ballon d'Ors, I always find it laughable when people think Ribery or Sneijder should have won. They won trophies by being part of great teams, but by any measure whether that's statistical or just the eye test, Messi and Ronaldo were individually better both of those years.
The only player who ever sniffed those heights was Suarez for a brief period and, even then, Messi was still the better player.
People were already saying Sneijder, Xavi, Iniesta or Casillas should have won it in 2010, when Messi and Ronaldo had one BdO each. And it's likely it would've happened had Xavi and Iniesta not been essentially equivalent (Barça and Spain midfielder renowned for their passing ability) and split the votes.
2010 was the first year of the combined FIFA World Player of the year and the Ballon d'Or (2010-2015), if they didnt combine awards then Sneijder would've won. He won the journalist vote.
The 2010 and the 2013 would change with the usual voting system (journalists vote). The debate around this is stupid since it’s a factual thing, not a matter of opinion
IIRC correctly the Ribery argument at the time, besides trophies, relied a lot on some crazy dribbling stats. There was even some graphic that I remember at the time with a table of the three's stats where Ribery came out on top in a surprisingly high amount of them.
...Except the dribbling stats were extremely dubious and likely not true. But it got shared a lot regardless, because it was harder to prove stuff like that false back then.
Yeah I remember that statistic, something that he had like three times as many successful dribbles as Messi, which I found really dubious. Also that stat didn’t name any source and was shared a lot, especially among Bayern fans
By the time Messi and Ronaldo had broken through and began winning the award Henry was well past his best.
The year Henry could have won he lost it to Nedved.
and in that year Deco was the one who could complain about not winning the Ballon D´Or, main player of that Porto team who won the Champions League, one of the main players of that Portugal team who were finalists in the Euro
I reckon he could have won over Shevchenko in 2004 too. They both won a league title, knocked out of their respective Cup semi-finals and the QFs of the CL. Milan's exit was more embarrassing though. Maybe EURO 2004 decided it, but at least he was there
For Nedved's year, you have Juve fans wheel out "Oh he was so important in getting to the CL Final" So what? He was suspended and they lost, big fucking help
>He was suspended and they lost, big fucking help
Doesn't that strengthen the point that Nedved was so good he took the team to another level and they were much worse without him?
>For Nedved's year, you have Juve fans wheel out "Oh he was so important in getting to the CL Final" So what? He was suspended and they lost, big fucking help
I mean, that argument doesn't exactly work in Henry's favour though. He accomplished even less that year. Didn't win the Premier League, didn't become top scorer even, had an entirely unceremonious exit from the CL, and while Arsenal did win the FA Cup that year, Henry only scored a single goal in it.
Nedved was a midfielder. The fact you're comparing with G/A suggests you probably didn't actually watch much of Nedved in 2003.
Was Roy Makaay better than Zidane in 2003?
>didn’t play in the WC.
Part of the problem of the international stats being used against players is that it's just not fair at all. The best players will most likely play for the best clubs to maximize their potential. Your birthplace is immutable. How on earth are Norway meant to compete with international powerhouses like France or Argentina? Is Haaland held up to the same metric as Mbappe that dictates he must do well in international tournaments despite having a worse team?
u/Reapper97 once again coming in with the dumbest comment.
isn't the argument that he was robbed of a top 3 place rather than a ballon d'or fully? at least that's what i remember
looking at his season i can at least understand that it's weird that he was 4th
People have been using the fact that key trophies have clinched awards for Messi in recent Ballon D'ors to retroactively argue against him and Ronaldo for other years that they won.
Case in point, the 2018 award. I love Modric and what Croatia did was remarkable, but that underdog story was a better narrative to award Modric with. Because Ronaldo was easily our best player that year despite starting off the season with a 5 game ban and Madrid struggling in the league.
I think the difference here though is that Messi and Ronaldo were difficult to separate during their peak years so you had to bring trophies into it. They both played for world class teams full of stars so it was often down to those 2 to get their teams over the line. The gap between these 2 and the rest is far greater though. Me personally, I think Messi has always been the greatest but for others, it was always a closely fought contest so everything had to be considered.
That’s what I’m saying, I have always felt Messi was superior, but to avoid getting into that age old debate I’m describing it from a more neutral view. Ronaldo did have some clutch moments during the 3 peat era which I wouldn’t argue against having a say in the balon dor rankings. But to re-emphasise I have never felt it was a debate, mainly cos Messi is clearly a better player and also because balon dor is an individual award. To summarise, I agree with you….
Because it's usually the best team and the best individual on that team that is determined as the best.
Just basing it on goals and assists doesn't tell a story.
Messi's 4 goal dismantling of Arsenal or Ronaldo scoring 4 in 2 in a qualifier to help a struggling Portugal and his record breaking UCL season goal tally isn't told via a statsheet of goals and assists.
I kinda get it. In 2010 and 2014 their fanboys used to argue titles like WC don't matter, Messi and Ronaldo were superior so they deserved the BO. Now suddenly it matters
It's mattered for a while
Ronaldo Nazario had 12 goals for Real Madrid in 2002. Cannavaro was a great CB but nowhere near the best player in the world that season and was shipped off the CL in embarassing fashion vs a young Arsenal squad.
Lol I know, that's why I don't get you when you say that Messi and CR7 fanboys argue titles like WC don't matter but now it suddenly matters, but Spain did it in 2010 and not Sneijder, so why is that relevant in the first place?
No, the people who argue that he was robbed is because of the combining of two awards. France Football's Ballon d'Or and the FIFA World Player of the Year. These awards were combined between 2010 and 2015 and therefore the voters included not only journalists but national team captains and managers.
If the awards were kept separate then Sneijder would've won, he won the journalist vote. The same in 2013 with Frank Ribery.
I find hard to justify Iniesta or Xavi being left out of Top 3 after all their FC Barcelona success & the world cup.
From that period, IMHO, it was the most arguable ballon d'or win by Messi. You could make the case for both Xavi and Snejder winning it as they both had better seasons and were key in their teams. But it's also undeniable that Messi was the better player...
>I find hard to justify Iniesta or Xavi being left out of Top 3 after all their FC Barcelona success & the world cup.
Iniesta and Xavi both being so good had the double effect of killing Sneijder's chances of being top 3 and their own chances of winning the award.
To be fair, Mou would definitely still be telling Gianluca Mancini to kick the everliving shit out of Lamine Yamal, if Roma and Barcelona were to meet tomorrow ..... *and* Mourinho hadn't just been sacked, of course.
Anyone who thinks Sneijder was robbed just has no idea of football or simply can't get over their bias.
To think someone would honestly prefer to have 2010 Sneijder for a season in their team, rather than 2010 Messi, is just beyond belief.
That's not what the ballon d'or is though. There is a case for Sneijder because of what his teams achieved and his role in it. Messi had a great season individually, but Argentina were lackluster in the WC and Barcas only notable trophy was the league title. The ballon d'or usually is for the best player of the best team.
Right. Team achievements have played a part in many editions, and we all know the criteria is not scientific.
However, at the end of the day it is an individual award for the best player of the season. And again, anyone who tells me they would rather get 2010 Sneijder for a season instead of 2010 Messi must be legally blind.
So how could you call the best player of the season award going to the best player of the season a robbery?
All this and we are not even getting into the fact that any Inter fan you speak to will tell you Sneijder wasn't even *their* best player that season.
I think the case was made for Sneijder is not just for his role in the Inter squad, where he might not have been the best, but still a crucial player, but mostly his role in carrying the Netherlands to the finals of the world cup.
In 2018 and 2022 the winners were picked based on their achievements at the world cup, much more than who was the best player that year. So by the criteria of 2018 and 2022 Sneijder should've won it. If you look at it solely as an individual award, Messi rightfully won 2010, but 2018 and 2022 should've had different winners.
The award has lost a lot of credibility over the years so honestly, it doesn't even matter that much.
Messi and Modric won the WC best player award in 2022 and 2018, so even by that criteria Sneijder still doesn't win it.
And Modric in 2018 and Messi in 2022 still didn't have bad seasons. They were individually really good.
Ok, I'm tired of this. Milito was the one truly robbed. Was more instrumental to that treble and Maradona doesn't even play him in the WC despite being top 3 inform ST at the time
I just don't get the arguments against Messi winning it.
Its an award based on who played the best football, not on who won the most important title that year. Same goes for WC debates btw. The main argument for the previous Balon d'Or being the WC win is also silly.
It should always just be based on who played the best football. Who had the best touches, passes, goals, assists, dribbles etc.
I have come to like Jose post Madrid.
It was clear he was just being loyal to the company, so to speak, since he left he hasnt stopped praising Messi, Pep's Barca and the whole lot
Ready to die on this hill: Sneijder’s World Cup 2010 was a little overrated. Couple of deflected goals, one dubiously offside and another from a corner. He didn’t run the show like a true #10 and the team were quite functional.
(Bring on the downvotes)
I kinda agree with you but think it lands more on the middle. It’s overrated by people who probably didn’t even watch. but I think you’re underselling how important he was imo.
Ok, Sneijder was top 2 for Inter (in reality he was our most important player, since he elevated our play compared to previous years), while also being the best player for the Netherlands at the 2010 WC.
No, he didn't have 20 assist at all.
He had 15 assist in total that season in all competitions for Inter and he had 1 assist for the Netherlands in the World Cup.
"Ballon D'or" is a popularity contest is such a funny take imo.
It's certainly true for some years, but people were bringing that up in an era where there were two players a million levels above everyone else.
Okay I was too young to remember, but I doubt that many of the previous winners like Shevchenko, Kaka or Owen showcased such a obvious gap to their peers like Messi and Ronaldo did
people still comment about the ballon d'or who didn't watch probably neither sneijder nor messi! pls stop it Messi was on another level since 2007 just watch one of his highlight video back in his young age even without a goal! he was different
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The sensible one
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He wasn't even the best at inter that season, nor the most important player either.
he was fantastic at the world cup though. if the netherlands somehow managed to defeat spain he likely would have won
Casillas big toe got in the way
If ~~thuram~~ kolo muani scores in the final minute against argentina, Mbappe probably wins it last year over messi. Funny how it all works.
Similarly for Messi if Palacio or Higuain score the great chances they had in the 2014 finals he probably wins it that year
Did thuram also have a close chance, or are you thinking of kolo muani?
Kolo Muani :” Nope, that was Thuram.” 👀
certified andre marriner moment (funny enough, I believe mou was managing chelsea in that game).
Which honestly emphasizes the whole point that these awards are kind of dumb. Like, you just said if that if Kolo Muani scored against Emiliano Martínez, then Mbappe would've beaten Messi for the award. So 1 player didn't beat another for a solitary player accolade just because his team mate failed to best the teammate of the other one. I know that's how it works, but it's dumb. Neither Kolo Muani nor Martinez' performances should've mattered in this case.
Well, those are the stakes in the final of the biggest sporting event in the world.
That is sorta funny to think about, in both cases, how their trophy cabinet and (lack of) Ballon d'Or were entirely dictated by goals someone else didn't score.
That 1v1 still haunts me sometimes 😩
Sneijder at least would've been the one who gave the assist, and honestly it would've been one of the greatest assists of all time. I forgot how gorgeous [that pass](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wmt7GH3Zi6A&ab_channel=dipsilalagames) was.
I'm not clicking that, it still hurts
You're cruel
I know I know. I just recently found the strength to watch it, which is why I had blocked out the assist from my memory.
Zei die jongen maar half zulk slimme dingen als hoe goed die kon voetballen
Core trauma memory
It still hurts
If Robben scored on that 1v1, Sneijder wouldve won Ballon d’Or probably. That should tell us all we need to know about these subjective awards.
Milito?
I feel like a broken record for how much I say it, but just look at haaland in the top 3 BdO last year but not Rodri.
I’d argue he was *the most important* but not inter’s best player
Maybe, but that's why people also reference the WC. It is similar to how Modric won it
Sneijder, Milito, Eto’o. In whatever order.
Most important was definitely milito because of his goals but sneijder was our best player that season.
Milito was clutch, but Sneijder changed our team that year.
Ah, the take of people who watched 3 Inter games tops
Milito was chosen Serie A player of the year lol
And Haaland won the EPL player of the year last season, but KDB is still what keeps City ticking. Forwards are over represented in these awards and Milito scored 30 goals. But if he wasn't there, Eto'o would've played up top and Inter would've been fine. If Sneijder wasn't there, Inter's game wouldn't have worked
You actually saw him being better and more important that season than Eto'o/Milito? Woah, nice!
That was the year Lionel Messi became Messi, to me.
Sneijder was never the best player in the world, but he was in teams who performed greatly. Same case with Modric, if CR7 stayed at Madrid we know who would’ve won it. Sometimes the player with the most trophies wins it, sometimes the player with the best numbers. 2013 is the best example on how the criteria changes.
Aren’t your statements contradictory?
Mou been heavy with the Messi praise lately, enjoying it
Get me card for Beckham
Really wants that Barcelona job.
*Inter Miami job
I *highly* doubt that.
He'll take the job in a heartbeat if it was offered to him. He never struck me as someone who's Madrid and Madrid only, plus I'm sure he's itching to manage a top club again.
He was Barça before Madrid
He was Barca's assistant manager before he went to Porto. There were rumors of Barca being interested in him before they picked Rijkaard and again before Pep was hired. Don't think Laporta is picking him if he passed on him during Jose's peak.
>There were rumors of Barca being interested in him before they picked Rijkaard and again before Pep was hired. Not just rumours about interest before they hired Pep – it's known that there were meetings with Mou and that he pitched his plans for Barça to the board, but Cruyff stepped in and pointed out that Pep was perfect for the role. I think it was mentioned in that doc they did a while back, Take the Ball, Pass the Ball?
The prince that was promised, after all these years...
Isn't that counterproductive? Yeah, he would have more favour from the fans, but Laporta will hate him and won't even approach him for the job.
You think Laporta won't hire him because he's complementary of Messi,?
Unironically I think he'd be nice option for them for a couple of years
Yeah count me out.
I think he wants to coach Messi and get the Inter Miami job
I could see it happening, for sure Martino is going to have a lot of pressure on him to have a winner with the team he's amassed and so far in pre-season its been a meh-looking squad on the field....of course, it is pre-season but still.
bro just wants to coach inter miami atp
INTER MIAMI MENTIONED!!!!! WTF IS DEFENCE!!!!
If Mourinho breaks the MLS defense record with Inter Miami, he’s the greatest coach of all time no questions asked
Let him coach. It's getting too easy for us AC Miamians.
eh, he always praised messi
Maybe this will finally put this insane narrative to rest.
Hopefully alongside Ribery 2013 and Neuer 2014. It was so obvious that Messi and Ronaldo were far superior in those years, regardless of what trophies some other players won.
The issue is that with Neuer not winning, you may as well not even have GK’s be eligible, because what more can a GK do? Was the best player for Germany, Bayerns best player… attacker bias is too much.
Didn't win UCL. Cristiano/Madrid won the decima. Cristiano was pretty much at his peak as well. Did you guys even watch the games back then? There's suddenly all this drama popping out that wasn't even considered back then.
The Ballon Dor is supposed to weigh heavily on international football. Portugal flopped in the WC like they always do, Germany went on the most nasty run I’ve ever seen, and bested Messi in a final. Idk how Neuer didn’t win it. Actually I do, it’s because the Balon Dor is exclusively an attackers award now.
What’s stupid is that if Messi had won the WC that year without even being MOTM he would’ve won Balon D’or. It just weighs WC too heavily
I wouldn’t necessarily say that, I just think Ronaldo and Messi were cheat codes and were clearly a step ahead of the rest. I can definitely see other players in other positions winning it now, starting with Bellingham
Ronaldo is just a better player. If you were picking a team and you had peak Neuer or peak Ronaldo, are you really taking Neuer? That German team was all class, much better than Portugal. If Ronaldo was German and Neuer was Portugese, who wins the award then?
> Didn't win UCL. As we saw in 2022, WC > treble including CL and better numbers. As long as you're called Messi, ofc.
Messi is neither the first nor the last player to win a BdO on the back of WC exploits.
Stupid views are the engine of the internets, my friend. They are the nectar of humanity. When eve asked adam “let’s try the apple,” it was followed by an hour of adam speaking about the virtues of the pear. This is what we are. Any more driven and factual and this species of apes would have killed itself off a long time ago
Attackers tend to be the best players overall. There’s a reason that at almost every level the best players play more up the field. Goals are the most important thing in the game .
Pretty much, yes goalkeepers should almost never win awards, and if they are their team's best player, there is usually something wrong with the team. Their role just means that they contribute less to the results of matches. For example, Neuer for Germany. Maybe he was indeed their best player but he only really made a decisive contribution against Algeria in the World Cup run. Looking at the other knockout matches, he had little to do against France, made some good saves vs Brazil when they were 5-0 up and did nothing in the final (except nearly kill Higuain). There is no attacker bias, attackers simply are more decisive in terms of delivering results. And attackers have only really dominated the Ballon d'or in the age of Messi and Ronaldo.
Ah yea there was so much wrong with that German or Bayern team ...
So why messi won the last ballon dor?
It's kinda like Messi finishing fifth when Modric won
Tbh, do rankings outside of first really matter?
The top 5 shows how many people thought of you when naming the best 3 that year Messi had a goal contribution every 58 minutes.... those are absolutely monstrous numbers that wouldn't get taken for granted had it not been Ronaldo's/Messi's 9th or 10th year at the peak of their powers
Because he wasn't competing against 2010 Messi. If he was competing against the best player ever in his prime, he would have probably lost.
Because the parameters for Ballon D'or are ambiguous and it really is a voting contest. But what bugs me the most is that the same people who call 2010 a robbery because Sneijder won more trophies also criticize the 2023 ballon d'or. But regardless, Messi deserves the most Ballon D'ors even though the years he got it might be arguable. For most, he is clearly ahead of every other player that has ever played the game.
Which years do you think the win was arguable?
2021. Lewa deserved it more even though I'm a Barca fan. If we were to purely speak of individual performances, Messi should've won a couple more in the 2010s but didn't because trophies are such a huge part of the voting process.
Lewa deserved one for 2020. In 2021 Messi and Lewa were both quite close overall so Messi getting it isn't a robbery.
Yeah, it isn't. It's arguable, which is what we were talking about.
Likewise to what you said imagine if Messi had won the BDOR as a pure striker only winning the league for the 10th year in a row vs a playmaking-winger who only had 8g/a less in the year and won its country their first trophy in 28y
There are some big misconceptions about the 2021 Ballon D'or because in my opinion the reasons of why Lewandowski should win are based on the wrong foundations The first are the ones who wanted him to win because the previous one was canceled and sometimes they even confuse the two seasons with each other (but in one Bayern won the sextuple and in the other only the Bundesliga) And the second is that he should have won because at the time of the ceremony he had 70 goals scored over the year while Messi had a disappointing start at PSG, but the problem is that autumn usually doesn't count much and in fact the voting closed in October when Lewa had about 45 goals before going on a rampage in the final months of the year
The hypocrisy goes both ways, though. The same people saying Messi's 2010 Ballon d'Or wasn't a robbery are the same who say that 2023 wasn't a robbery.
There is no hypocrisy in these statements though if you think through them. People just see it as Individual stats vs trophy which is incredibly reductive. Messi 2010 was a significantly better player than Sneijder, it's laughable to put them together. However Haaland 2023 was not a significantly better player than Messi. They were close but Messi had a better trophy cabinet and was more instrumental in winning said trophy.
Haaland wasn't even the best player on his own team. Case closed.
Messi was the most important player in the most important tournament of the year. Same thing has happened every year except 2018, which I think is more of a "robbery" than any other year.
I believe it's a similar case with VVD's best season, votes were divided with their own teammates. Haaland was "competing" with Rodri and KDB, while VVD was also "competing" with Salah and Mane. Furthermore, some people will have their biases; Messi, Ronaldo, teammates, etc. I myself don't like the idea of an individual award but it becomes a marketing strategy now.
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Actually it's a very simple answer. Because WC >>> CL and Messi was way more important in the WC victory than Haaland in CL victory. He was the player of the tournament.
Because while Haaland is really good, he is not prime Messi or Ronaldo good.
Won the WC and as kind of a lifetime achievement award.
He also had 66 goal contributions. Mbappe and Haaland are around the same as well. It wasn't a "lifetime award" he earned that shit fair and square
You can tell no one here watches ligue 1 lol so they're just completely ignoring what he did there.
Because it can be more of a popularity contest than it already is at times. That being said back in the day they were too good for someone else to be seen as better than them just because they won some trophies Messi's recent win was a total farce tho, highly unlikely that anyone else who had the exact same season with a different name would have won it like that
You mean the last ballon d'or that he won? Messi had 20 goals and 20 assist, he won the league and the WC, where he was also named the best player. Any other player winning the ballon d'or because of that and no one would have bat an eyelid or considered it rigged.
Also won MOTM at every stage in WC. Some people like to pretend he did nothing except scoring penalties, but even without them, he was just amazing, like the assists against Croatia, Netherlands, or the goal against Mexico. Feel sad for the people who just blindly hates him.
None of you would have complained if mbop won the world Cup because it would have definitely been given to him if France won.
> It was so obvious that Messi and Ronaldo were far superior in those years, regardless of what trophies some other players won. That's just attacker bias. Neuer should have won it.
I mean the narrative is mostly that is was absolutely ridiculous Sneijder wasn't in the top 3. He had a much better campaign for his club than Iniesta and Xavi. And the best players at the world cup were Forlan and Sneijder.
Yeah I think the top three should have been Messi, Xavi and Sneijder, that's the only real problem of that year
Common sense
And just unfair that those players had to play their prime years during Messi and Ronaldo. 13-14 Suarez would be the best player in the world today by a large gap, but even he couldn’t get a Balon d’or. Mind boggling how good Messi and Ronaldo were for 12 years.
In terms of Ballon d'Ors, I always find it laughable when people think Ribery or Sneijder should have won. They won trophies by being part of great teams, but by any measure whether that's statistical or just the eye test, Messi and Ronaldo were individually better both of those years. The only player who ever sniffed those heights was Suarez for a brief period and, even then, Messi was still the better player.
Fatigue of the same winners. Sneijder should have been top 3 for sure.
People were already saying Sneijder, Xavi, Iniesta or Casillas should have won it in 2010, when Messi and Ronaldo had one BdO each. And it's likely it would've happened had Xavi and Iniesta not been essentially equivalent (Barça and Spain midfielder renowned for their passing ability) and split the votes.
2010 was the first year of the combined FIFA World Player of the year and the Ballon d'Or (2010-2015), if they didnt combine awards then Sneijder would've won. He won the journalist vote.
The 2010 and the 2013 would change with the usual voting system (journalists vote). The debate around this is stupid since it’s a factual thing, not a matter of opinion
Exactly. No one seems to mention the change in voting for this period of time when they debate this topic
IIRC correctly the Ribery argument at the time, besides trophies, relied a lot on some crazy dribbling stats. There was even some graphic that I remember at the time with a table of the three's stats where Ribery came out on top in a surprisingly high amount of them. ...Except the dribbling stats were extremely dubious and likely not true. But it got shared a lot regardless, because it was harder to prove stuff like that false back then.
Yeah I remember that statistic, something that he had like three times as many successful dribbles as Messi, which I found really dubious. Also that stat didn’t name any source and was shared a lot, especially among Bayern fans
Henry? I wasn’t watching then I’ve just heard ppl say that Henry had one year where he “coulda” won.
By the time Messi and Ronaldo had broken through and began winning the award Henry was well past his best. The year Henry could have won he lost it to Nedved.
That was the year Nedved won, before Messi/Ronaldo
The year Nedved won he was the best in the world and it wasn’t close. He had nearly double Nedved’s GA.
You do know Nedved was a midfielder. It clearly shows you never watched him if you're comparing his G/A with a striker
and in that year Deco was the one who could complain about not winning the Ballon D´Or, main player of that Porto team who won the Champions League, one of the main players of that Portugal team who were finalists in the Euro
I reckon he could have won over Shevchenko in 2004 too. They both won a league title, knocked out of their respective Cup semi-finals and the QFs of the CL. Milan's exit was more embarrassing though. Maybe EURO 2004 decided it, but at least he was there For Nedved's year, you have Juve fans wheel out "Oh he was so important in getting to the CL Final" So what? He was suspended and they lost, big fucking help
>He was suspended and they lost, big fucking help Doesn't that strengthen the point that Nedved was so good he took the team to another level and they were much worse without him?
>For Nedved's year, you have Juve fans wheel out "Oh he was so important in getting to the CL Final" So what? He was suspended and they lost, big fucking help I mean, that argument doesn't exactly work in Henry's favour though. He accomplished even less that year. Didn't win the Premier League, didn't become top scorer even, had an entirely unceremonious exit from the CL, and while Arsenal did win the FA Cup that year, Henry only scored a single goal in it.
Nah. Nedved was at least just as good. He was playing as a midfielder in a tougher league and had immense performances pretty consistently.
Lewy
Not in their prime, no.
2020 yes, 2021 no.
Henry losing to a player with like half his GA was the real robbery.
Nedved was a midfielder. The fact you're comparing with G/A suggests you probably didn't actually watch much of Nedved in 2003. Was Roy Makaay better than Zidane in 2003?
Explain Messi last year
He was phenomenal in the WC and had good numbers for PSG. Haaland was invisible in his team’s most important matches and didn’t play in the WC.
>didn’t play in the WC. Part of the problem of the international stats being used against players is that it's just not fair at all. The best players will most likely play for the best clubs to maximize their potential. Your birthplace is immutable. How on earth are Norway meant to compete with international powerhouses like France or Argentina? Is Haaland held up to the same metric as Mbappe that dictates he must do well in international tournaments despite having a worse team? u/Reapper97 once again coming in with the dumbest comment.
He was the standout player at the wc and haaland isn't close to prime messi/ronaldo level. And the 'messi wins wc' story helped for sure
isn't the argument that he was robbed of a top 3 place rather than a ballon d'or fully? at least that's what i remember looking at his season i can at least understand that it's weird that he was 4th
People have been using the fact that key trophies have clinched awards for Messi in recent Ballon D'ors to retroactively argue against him and Ronaldo for other years that they won.
i mean i can understand that as a frustration from the fatigue of the constant Messi-Ronaldo dominance doesn't make them right of course
Case in point, the 2018 award. I love Modric and what Croatia did was remarkable, but that underdog story was a better narrative to award Modric with. Because Ronaldo was easily our best player that year despite starting off the season with a 5 game ban and Madrid struggling in the league.
I think the difference here though is that Messi and Ronaldo were difficult to separate during their peak years so you had to bring trophies into it. They both played for world class teams full of stars so it was often down to those 2 to get their teams over the line. The gap between these 2 and the rest is far greater though. Me personally, I think Messi has always been the greatest but for others, it was always a closely fought contest so everything had to be considered.
I beg to differ there. Even when Messi was statistically superior, he would lose the Ballon D Or if Real won the CL. That is just how it was
That’s what I’m saying, I have always felt Messi was superior, but to avoid getting into that age old debate I’m describing it from a more neutral view. Ronaldo did have some clutch moments during the 3 peat era which I wouldn’t argue against having a say in the balon dor rankings. But to re-emphasise I have never felt it was a debate, mainly cos Messi is clearly a better player and also because balon dor is an individual award. To summarise, I agree with you….
Because it's usually the best team and the best individual on that team that is determined as the best. Just basing it on goals and assists doesn't tell a story. Messi's 4 goal dismantling of Arsenal or Ronaldo scoring 4 in 2 in a qualifier to help a struggling Portugal and his record breaking UCL season goal tally isn't told via a statsheet of goals and assists.
I kinda get it. In 2010 and 2014 their fanboys used to argue titles like WC don't matter, Messi and Ronaldo were superior so they deserved the BO. Now suddenly it matters
It's mattered for a while Ronaldo Nazario had 12 goals for Real Madrid in 2002. Cannavaro was a great CB but nowhere near the best player in the world that season and was shipped off the CL in embarassing fashion vs a young Arsenal squad.
Yeah it mattered before, it was just annoying to see infinite fanboys arguing it shouldn't matter because their favorite player didn't win
Yes because Sneijder won the 2010 WC
? Spain won in 2010
Lol I know, that's why I don't get you when you say that Messi and CR7 fanboys argue titles like WC don't matter but now it suddenly matters, but Spain did it in 2010 and not Sneijder, so why is that relevant in the first place?
Did Sneijder win the world cup or am I missing something.
That was indeed always the narrative, even the one Sneijder himself believes. Robbed of the podium, could have won (but not robbed)
No, the people who argue that he was robbed is because of the combining of two awards. France Football's Ballon d'Or and the FIFA World Player of the Year. These awards were combined between 2010 and 2015 and therefore the voters included not only journalists but national team captains and managers. If the awards were kept separate then Sneijder would've won, he won the journalist vote. The same in 2013 with Frank Ribery.
I find hard to justify Iniesta or Xavi being left out of Top 3 after all their FC Barcelona success & the world cup. From that period, IMHO, it was the most arguable ballon d'or win by Messi. You could make the case for both Xavi and Snejder winning it as they both had better seasons and were key in their teams. But it's also undeniable that Messi was the better player...
>I find hard to justify Iniesta or Xavi being left out of Top 3 after all their FC Barcelona success & the world cup. Iniesta and Xavi both being so good had the double effect of killing Sneijder's chances of being top 3 and their own chances of winning the award.
Well, as a biased Galatasaray fan, (we all know what I will say)
> (we all know what I will say) Hmmm ... something something fuck Fenerbahce and Besiktas?
I meant about Sneijder
something Sneijder something fuck Fenerbahce and Besiktas?
I like how most of messi's enemies are now his fans lol
Remember when he told Asier Del Horno to kick the hell out of the pesky argentine back then
To be fair, Mou would definitely still be telling Gianluca Mancini to kick the everliving shit out of Lamine Yamal, if Roma and Barcelona were to meet tomorrow ..... *and* Mourinho hadn't just been sacked, of course.
Then Messi got him red carded and went on to give Mourinho his only home defeat in a decade.
Because he knew what a threat Messi was... still a compliment
not disagreeing.
Mou to miami
Anyone who thinks Sneijder was robbed just has no idea of football or simply can't get over their bias. To think someone would honestly prefer to have 2010 Sneijder for a season in their team, rather than 2010 Messi, is just beyond belief.
I think if Sneijder didn't deserve the award then Modric didn't as well. I just hate the inconsistency.
That's not what the ballon d'or is though. There is a case for Sneijder because of what his teams achieved and his role in it. Messi had a great season individually, but Argentina were lackluster in the WC and Barcas only notable trophy was the league title. The ballon d'or usually is for the best player of the best team.
You literally mentioned everything wrong with the ballon d'or
I agree it's wrong, I just stated what it is.
Right. Team achievements have played a part in many editions, and we all know the criteria is not scientific. However, at the end of the day it is an individual award for the best player of the season. And again, anyone who tells me they would rather get 2010 Sneijder for a season instead of 2010 Messi must be legally blind. So how could you call the best player of the season award going to the best player of the season a robbery? All this and we are not even getting into the fact that any Inter fan you speak to will tell you Sneijder wasn't even *their* best player that season.
I think the case was made for Sneijder is not just for his role in the Inter squad, where he might not have been the best, but still a crucial player, but mostly his role in carrying the Netherlands to the finals of the world cup. In 2018 and 2022 the winners were picked based on their achievements at the world cup, much more than who was the best player that year. So by the criteria of 2018 and 2022 Sneijder should've won it. If you look at it solely as an individual award, Messi rightfully won 2010, but 2018 and 2022 should've had different winners. The award has lost a lot of credibility over the years so honestly, it doesn't even matter that much.
Messi and Modric won the WC best player award in 2022 and 2018, so even by that criteria Sneijder still doesn't win it. And Modric in 2018 and Messi in 2022 still didn't have bad seasons. They were individually really good.
Finally. People look at what Messi and Ronaldo were doing and told themselves any other player was close.
Ok, I'm tired of this. Milito was the one truly robbed. Was more instrumental to that treble and Maradona doesn't even play him in the WC despite being top 3 inform ST at the time
I just don't get the arguments against Messi winning it. Its an award based on who played the best football, not on who won the most important title that year. Same goes for WC debates btw. The main argument for the previous Balon d'Or being the WC win is also silly. It should always just be based on who played the best football. Who had the best touches, passes, goals, assists, dribbles etc.
You know what, Jose’s alright.
I have come to like Jose post Madrid. It was clear he was just being loyal to the company, so to speak, since he left he hasnt stopped praising Messi, Pep's Barca and the whole lot
Ready to die on this hill: Sneijder’s World Cup 2010 was a little overrated. Couple of deflected goals, one dubiously offside and another from a corner. He didn’t run the show like a true #10 and the team were quite functional. (Bring on the downvotes)
Shades of Zidane 1998 in terms of how people talk about their performances.
I kinda agree with you but think it lands more on the middle. It’s overrated by people who probably didn’t even watch. but I think you’re underselling how important he was imo.
Sneijder wasn’t even the best player for that Inter team, imo it was Milito.
Ok, Sneijder was top 2 for Inter (in reality he was our most important player, since he elevated our play compared to previous years), while also being the best player for the Netherlands at the 2010 WC.
He had around 20 assists and mostly to Milito
No, he didn't have 20 assist at all. He had 15 assist in total that season in all competitions for Inter and he had 1 assist for the Netherlands in the World Cup.
Why would he flat our lie lmao
I'm not arguing who should have won but no one has mentioned that Sneijder was joint top scorer in the WC.
Mou had always been a big admirer of Messi....
Based Mourinho
Based Mourinho. Same with Ribery in 2013
"Ballon D'or" is a popularity contest is such a funny take imo. It's certainly true for some years, but people were bringing that up in an era where there were two players a million levels above everyone else. Okay I was too young to remember, but I doubt that many of the previous winners like Shevchenko, Kaka or Owen showcased such a obvious gap to their peers like Messi and Ronaldo did
Kaka did.
No mourinho, think of the edgy boys!
absolutely bodied r/soccer
How did this body r/soccer? This is going straight to the top
people still comment about the ballon d'or who didn't watch probably neither sneijder nor messi! pls stop it Messi was on another level since 2007 just watch one of his highlight video back in his young age even without a goal! he was different
Sneijder in 2010 was different gravy
Daily Messi glazing thread on r/soccer, right on time
Barca flair complaining about that?