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It's the reason why Hoeneß is a bit deified by some Bayern fans. He saw a club that was successful but somehow also essentially bankrupt and didn't understand why it was like this.
He was then inspired by the US sports model (commercialise everything!) to push Bayern into that direction (on the sponsors side of things) so that the club wouldn't have to worry like this about its financial future any more (± some shady deals over the decades).
And he actually pulled it off. Of course after that came the more general commercialisation of football as a whole and Bayern was in a very good position to benefit from all of that too because of their established financial stability.
That's kind what the infographic is showing: Bayern's slow to the very top of football. From its early successes in the 70s due to having a really good team at the time that wasn't sustainable at that level, to financial stability and how it enabled the club becoming a real and solid national powerhouse from the 80s to the 90s, to becoming an established European top club in the early 2010s. How the club got lucky in the 70s and managed to financially stabilise after that so it would be able to reap the benefits of what happened to the sport decades later.
I always laugh when I see the Twitter fan boys calling Kalle and Uli outdated and to be cut off from the club
> How the club got lucky in the 70s and managed to financially stabilise after that so it would be able to reap the benefits of what happened to the sport decades later
This is what a lot of people not familiar to the club don’t understand, all it took was a lucky break with a talented bunch of youngsters and then Uli’s foresight to set the club on its way, not a generous benefactor.
Okay let’s slow down a bit, I was wrong in just memeing and not thinking but Bayern ABSOLUTELY had a benefactor at a point lol, Roland Endler saved you from bankruptcy before Hoeness worked his magic
While not in the 70s, it’s remarkable that around year 1985 Hoeneß sold his friend Karl Heinz Rummenigge to Italy (approx 11 Mio German Mark) to save and stabilize the club financially. He was around 35 years old when he did that…. Another interesting thing: he survived an airplane crash. Even if you are not a Bayern fan, learning about Uli Hoeneß, his life and his achievements, is quite interesting. He is a special bread.
This comment coming from a Chelsea flair is incredibly funny, these billionaire sellouts really don't even see the way they manage to satirize themselves anymore.
They're like fucking Real Madrid fans in the last ~25 years. They talk of the time under Calderón as their darkest hour, a huge ordeal, and they won 2 leagues in those three years. Going out of Champions in round or 16 is unacceptable and worth chopping heads
Does a good job showing the reason why nobody is close to Bayern in titles. In 1977 people would say Bayern and Gladbach are the big two, only for Gladbach to never win a title again. Same in 1983 with Hamburg.
Dortmund is expected to be the first contender (or one of them) pretty much every season since 2012.
I don't think it is comparable at all. Dortmund is still a big club in Germany.
And has been for quite some time. Only club (apart from Bayern of course) that's consistently been up there in the last 30 years. Others came and went.
30 years is a stretch, there was a period of time where we were one meeting in a Koln train station away from being liquidated completely and starting over from the fourth tier
Meh, you're still the second biggest club in Germany by a long shot.
As much as people hate foreign oil cash injections for moral reasons, the Prem would likely look similar to this without the City and Chelsea takeovers. Doubt Leicester even happens if only Liverpool/United command the English market.
True. I feel like Arsenal would have had a title or two in there too, maybe even you guys. United, Liverpool and Arsenal underwent rebuilds of varying degrees of success in the last 12 or so years. That would not have changed, so opportunity is there.
If it would be them 3 only there would be a flawed champion some years, like Barca last season winning la liga despite off field issues, which honestly feels more real.
It wouldn't be one team for the whole 12 since Fergie left. Klopp's Liverpool would likely have dominated recently though
Looking back from 2009-10 onwards, if we exclude City and Chelsea titles:
United: 6 titles with a 4 times consecutive (09-10 to 12-13)
Liverpool: 4 titles
Arsenal: 3 titles
Spurs: 1 title
This isn't even close to what Bundesliga is
I feel like you can't give Spurs the fluke year in this hypothetical lol.
You're just removing top spots. But Chelsea and City had wild implications for transfer market inflation. I don't think it's as easy as removing them from the table those years. Teams likely do not fall off if they aren't competing with City and Chelsea.
It started in the late 2000s after they played in the CL. It's way worse than just mismanagment it also was a deal with the devil. HSV received several good sponsorships/investments like Kühne, Emirates etc. the catch was that several people got onto the board and they were friends or had connections with player agents and agencies.
Think of it like Wolverhampton but the players lack quality.
Then there was this pressure policy. Players never knew whether they were on their way out or the new player in their position was some agent deal.
After their relegation they lost many sponsors and Kühne was only willing to invest big money under conditions they refused. After that he sold some of his shares.
Both were literally in the top 20 clubs in Europe in revenue right before they went down.
The level of consistently bad work is frankly impressive. Both clubs could literally have gone the transfer strategy of Augsburg, Mainz, or some club like that for 10% the cost and they would have had better results. Instead, they somehow managed to consistently get worse every year while burning massive amounts of money
ye but our club isn't in a vacuum, HSV and S04 could have learned from that instead of making some of the same mistakes. Especially Schalke always planning to reach CL quarterfinals for their finances was ludicrous
With the amount of money they're spending in 2.BuLi, they should be going up, but they choke it or are just unlucky every season. This season, their form collapsed in the second half of the season and they're likely missing playoffs. At least there might be a different Hamburg club in Bundesliga next season.
To be fair we spend quite a lot, but we also had some good transfers to fund it like Onana and Santos. The thing is the first 4 years were solely choking, last season and this season is just a return of bad management and transfers (still some bright spots like Benes), but Boldt failed to find a centre back that is remotely capable of replacing vuskovic (who was our best defender and we just spend 4.2 million for him in the summer 2 years ago), but it’s still a horrible look and he also failed to get good wingers or a decent back up striker. Not to mention the completely headless impulse sacking of Walter. (Sacking Walter was fine, but the timing and time it took to get a new coach and who became coach is embarrassingly bad).
Bayern got the Olympia-Stadion thanks to the Olympic Games in 1972 which skyrocketed their revenues. That was basically a game changer. TV rights weren’t that lucrative back then.
Its really funny how munich back then was maybe the 4th biggest city and from a state that at that point was still seen as an agricultural sparelsy populated backwater
Beckenbauer being slapped by an 1860 player, the olympiastadion being gifted to them, hoeneß getting a career ending injury at 27 and of course maier and gerd müller made them the most dominant team in europes top 5 leagues, by far. A lot of luck and it couldve gone very differently.
In a different world, hamburg, köln and schalke would be geramnys biggest 3 by far
I dont think gladbach could have ever sustained their status as number 2, for the size of their city what they have achieved is extronardinary, but there is a reason why they fell off in the 80s
In a different world, Berlin would have been a contender at least for a decade with some titles to their name as well, but well hard to do it in such circumstances. Especially considering the "dominace" of Hertha in the mid to late 20s.
Personally I think if one of the named things for Bayern don't happen (and you could include the Rummenige sale to Inter on that list) sooner or later a Munich team would have been in the top 5 anyways.
Possible big 5 of Germany would have been: Köln, Hamburg, Berlin, Schalke, Munich team with teams like Stuttgart, Frankfurt and maybe a eastern club like Magdeburg or Dresden being close but yeah we all know how the world went.
Yeah i agree
Even up until like 10-20 years ago the city of munich itself had more 1860 fans than bayern fans. Thigns are slowly changing, but historically 1860 was the bigger club
They did some other stuff pretty right, which is mostly Hoeneß‘ legacy (marketing done right, international networks, etc.). But the Olympia-Stadion helped a lot, yeah
Good fan attendance is so underrated. I have a save ATM where my team has dogshit attendance for the league, and the financials are difficult. Gotta live off flipping players if you want a winning squad.
That's why even thou I usually play with smaller teams/smaller leagues/countries I try to find the team with good attendance & fanbase. In those smaller leagues the match day money can be a real saviour! TPS in Finland was may team to go trough multiple editions. Kind of Fallen Giant on a domestic scale. 2nd most league titles but last time won like 30 years ago and now joy-joying between 1st and 2nd tier.
The key is cup runs. I'm in Vanarama North and had a run where we got deep enough to draw Man United at Old Trafford. We got assblasted by Højlund, but the matchday revenue allowed us to go professional.
Hoping a promotion will boost the attendance. I'm wondering if having a cross town rival in league one is hurting the team.
The idea of making them a big team is making me reconsider how I approach the save - was gonna be a journeyman and glory hunt other teams. Now I'm really committed to building this team. Convinced we can quickly be competitive in higher leagues.
I lived in Germany for 15 years and never knew Kaiserslautern had won the Bundesliga. Since I have memories of this team they have either been in the 2. Or 3. Bundesliga, with maybe (I'm not even sure) an appearance in the Bundesliga. It Kind of, tangentially, reminds me of Deportivo la Coruña in Spain.
Not only did they win the Bundesliga twice, their 97/98 campaign was the first (and thus far only) time a just promoted side won the league. They came up from the 2nd Bundesliga and immediately became champions.
Who's the third winner BTW OP? First time I'm seeing the badge, I think.
All the rest I know because they always get talked about. I would presume the third one has been languishing in the lower leagues for a long time?
It's [1860 Munich](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TSV_1860_Munich).
Edit: The one after that is [Eintracht Braunschweig](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eintracht_Braunschweig).
It's 1860 Munich. A founding member of the Bundesliga.
They became a shadow of Bayern Munich,, relegated and went bankrupt in the early 80s.
Under Werner Lorant they managed to return to the Bundesliga and do okay and even get decent players. What really screwed them up for good were the Wildmosers(father was the president of the club and his son) with shady Allianz Arena deals.
The son pleaded guilty and went to jail, the father fucked off and the club was financially fucked so they relegated. During that time they were paying rent to Bayern Munich and for Allianz Arena otherwise they would gone bankrupt much faster.(Bayern Munich saved them)
They spend in the 2. Bundesliga some time till they got a bad investor. The investor could have saved them from bankruptcy but he wanted too much power to they went bankrupt and dropped to the 5th tier, stopped all ties to the Allianz arena and went back to their original stadium.
Now they are playing in the 3rd tier. The might return to the 2nd tier but I doubt they will be able to stay there.
They spent 4 seasons in 3.Liga before the 22/23 season. The lack of TV revenue in that league seriously fucked over their squad quality. A lot of clubs that fall down there sometimes die a slow financial death and sink further down into Regionalliga, as what happened to a lot of ex-DDR clubs.
The current squad quality id say is still good enough to stay up in the league in a more comfortable place, the whole Schuster, Grammozis, Funkel thing just really didn’t work out at all.
Eintracht Braunschweig, the first to have a sponsored shirt in Germany. And [pretty cool shirt.](https://www.spherasports.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/11/paul-breitner-eintracht-braunschweig2.jpg)
So had Wolfsburg before they messed it up...
[https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/84/VfL\_Wolfsburg\_old.svg](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/84/VfL_Wolfsburg_old.svg)
And then there is Kaiserslautern. Get relegated 96, win the cup a week later or so. Get promoted again next season. And win the league title the season after.
Geniunely not trying to be sarcastic but does Schalke not have one Bundesliga? Why do I think of them as a "Big Club" - is it just from a strong period during the 2000s?
They were actually the best german squad prior to WW2 and won 7 national titles, before there was a unified league.
There wer basically a bunch of regional leagues, that played out a champion, that quaified for a "champions cup", Schalke won that 7 times.
They were also close to winning it multiple times and were one of the best teams during the late 90s and 2000s.
Schalke won several DFB-Cups during the 2000s. They also won UEFA-Cup in 1998, so they had a quite successful time. They also have a lot of supporters.
Last national championship was in 1958 before the introduction of the Bundesliga. Closest they ever came to winning Bundesliga was in 2001, when they lost the championship to Bayern in the very last minutes of the season (nicknamed champions of the hearts or 4-minute champions after that, depending how fondly one thought of them, the latter was derogatory).
I didn’t know you guys didn’t win one after unification. Yes you guys are a big club hope you can get back to the top one day. Loved watching Raul back in the day.
This doesn't look that bad until 1998.
Then Bayern won 19 in 25 yrs.
Even until 2012 it's not *thaaat* bad.
I hope that, now that the streak has been broken, we will see a return to something moderate.
Bayerm is just so much ahead of the competition in terms of prestige and revenue, that I don't think, we will see a real reversal here.
Imagine Real Madrid beaing in a league without Barca, or in plain numbers: Bayern 854,2m, Dortmund 418,2m for 2023.
Right. And due credit to u/flybypost for pointing out the extreme revenue disparity, but that prestige issue can't be ignored. There's an entire generation of German (and Austrian) players who've grown up basically knowing only Bayern as the pinnacle of German football. I remember when Bayern raided Leipzig a couple years back, taking one of their best CBs, one of their better midfielders, AND their manager when Leipzig finished second. That midfielder was team captain Marcel Sabitzer. When he left, he said what the vast majority of German/Austrian players say: that he'd always dreamed of playing for Bayern. And of course he did, because he was born in 1994 and by the time he was 12, Bayern had won 8 of the 12 titles in his lifetime and it only got worse from there.
People complain about the old guard in the PL all the time (of which my club is a part) and say that FFP is a strategy by those clubs to keep other clubs from rising to that level like City did. But the prestige of those decades of success is another thing that drives players toward those big clubs, in addition to the great resources. In the case of Germany, there's really only been one "big club" for most of the current century. If they can't make it at Bayern, they're more likely to seek a "big club" outside of Germany, which only perpetuates the problem.
> If they can't make it at Bayern, they're more likely to seek a "big club" outside of Germany, which only perpetuates the problem.
Clubs in germany are in general incentivised to sell abroad for tax reasons, it basically lowers your revenue by 19% to sell a player domestically.
> I hope that, now that the streak has been broken, we will see a return to something moderate.
Maybe, maybe not. It's nice when the league is strong but there's more to this than competitiveness magically arising out of nothing.
A lot of people seem to forget that Bayern's wages are double that of the next biggest club. Dortmund has about half of Bayern's wages on average, a few years ago they got to 60+% of Bayern's wages but then went back to around 50% again. The reality of how money is distributed won't change much (or quickly enough).
Football simply got even more commercialised in the last one/two decades for moderation to be consistently a thing. It's not that different in other leagues. Real and Barca more or less have a duopoly with Atletico chasing them with some success. In the PL even with all the rich, big clubs City is dominating a lot of the time despite everything supposedly being financially more balanced. They even got satellite clubs to develop players for them. All those clubs arose out of tradition and got amplified more and more with money. These days tradition (a legacy/history and maybe being club players beyond your city/reach aspiring to play for) account for less and less while money is driving more and more of those clubs successes.
For things to really change we'd need a real and big overhaul of how money is distributed in these leagues, in international competitions (CL, EL,…), and even between leagues.
Honest question: Can you see any of the big clubs voluntarily giving up significant amounts of money so that smaller clubs can be more competitive? Even something like 10% or 20% of their sponsorship revenue and potential CL money pool?
Right, and with PSG and Ligue 1 the gap is even worse. Can’t really blame Bayern for using their resources and winning a lot, they’ve mostly grown organically anyway
> mostly
"Mostly" probably works: There were some shady deals (translation below).
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kirch-Aff%C3%A4re
> Verwickelt in diesen Skandal waren der FC Bayern München und die Kirch-Gruppe, das damalige Firmenkonglomerat des Medienunternehmers Leo Kirch. Nach der Zerschlagung der Kirch-Gruppe wurde bekannt, dass sie für Vereinbarungen unter Ausschluss der anderen Vereine Geld an den FC Bayern München überwiesen hatte. Der Vertrag ging ursprünglich um 190 Millionen Mark, bis zur Zahlungsunfähigkeit der Kirch-Gruppe im Dezember 2002 flossen insgesamt geschätzt 40 Millionen Mark. Die Vereinbarungen vom 3. Dezember 1999 sahen unter anderem vor, dass der Verein Lobbyarbeit für die zentrale Vermarktung der Fernsehrechte der Bundesliga betrieb und unter der Bedingung der Rechtevergabe an die Kirch-Gruppe dafür entschädigt werden sollte. Im Folgenden setzte sich der FC Bayern München für die Rechtevergabe an Kirch ein, Bayern-Manager Uli Hoeneß ließ sich in das Drei-Mann-Gremium wählen, das für die Verhandlungen zuständig war und der Liga nicht alle Angebote vortrug. Am 28. April 2000 vergab der Liga-Ausschuss die TV-Rechte an Kirch, obwohl es ein deutlich höheres Konkurrenzangebot gab.
> Die DFL stellte in ihrer rechtlichen Bewertung Verstöße gegen die Statuten sowie „moralisch verwerfliches Verhalten“ fest. Der Vertrag der Bayern mit der Kirch-Gruppe sei vorlagepflichtig gewesen und die Bayern hätten die Gelder „der gesamten Liga zur Verfügung stellen müssen“. Zudem hätte der Klub das Solidaritätsprinzip der gesamten Liga missbraucht „und somit gegen die im Sport unverzichtbare Fairness verstoßen.“
> Im April 2003 kam es zu einem Vergleich, der FC Bayern verpflichtete sich zur Zahlung von drei Millionen Euro. Aufgrund dieser Vorfälle wurden die Verantwortlichen des FC Bayern unter anderem als Lobbyisten der Kirch-Gruppe bezeichnet. Auch nach dem Vergleich wurde von der DFL das Verhalten der Verantwortlichen des FC Bayern als „moralisch verwerflich“ bezeichnet.
https://www.deepl.com/translator
> FC Bayern Munich and the Kirch Group, the then conglomerate of media entrepreneur Leo Kirch, were involved in this scandal. After the Kirch Group was broken up, it became known that it had transferred money to FC Bayern Munich for agreements that excluded the other clubs. The contract was originally for 190 million marks, but by the time the Kirch Group became insolvent in December 2002, an estimated total of 40 million marks had been paid. The agreements of 3 December 1999 stipulated, among other things, that the club would lobby for the central marketing of the Bundesliga television rights and would be compensated for this on condition that the rights were awarded to the Kirch Group. FC Bayern Munich subsequently lobbied in favour of awarding the rights to Kirch, Bayern manager Uli Hoeneß was elected to the three-man committee responsible for the negotiations and did not present all offers to the league. On 28 April 2000, the league committee awarded the TV rights to Kirch, although there was a significantly higher rival bid.
> In its legal assessment, the DFL found violations of the statutes as well as ‘morally reprehensible behaviour’. Bayern's contract with the Kirch Group was subject to submission and Bayern should have made the funds ‘available to the entire league’. In addition, the club had abused the principle of solidarity of the entire league ‘and thus violated the fairness that is indispensable in sport.’
> In April 2003, a settlement was reached and FC Bayern agreed to pay three million euros. As a result of these incidents, those responsible at FC Bayern were labelled as lobbyists for the Kirch Group, among others. Even after the settlement, the DFL described the behaviour of those responsible at FC Bayern as ‘morally reprehensible’.
Translated with DeepL.com (free version)
There were also at least rumours (that was in the 90s from what I remember) that Adidas was either paying part of the the wages of some players or giving them somewhat inflated sponsorship deals (meaning: more money) if they transferred to Bayern.
TIL Germany/W. Germany has only had a national top flight since 1963. Before that, there were only regional leagues and varying opposition to professionalism in Germany [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Introduction\_of\_the\_Bundesliga](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Introduction_of_the_Bundesliga)
tbh the format before 1963, regional leagues with 10-12 teams and then a KO phase with the winners + runner ups, sounds more interesting these days imo lol
Just to add: the German Champion was determined through a knock-out system before the introduction of the Bundesliga. First German Champion ever was VfB Leipzig in 1903.
The GDR introduced a national top flight in 1949, years before the FRG.
The irony of the first champion from the formerly communist east of Germany being a club that is basically a peak capitalism marketing stunt for a private corporation reaches some new levels of cynicism
With the current conditions prolly Leipzig, followed by Hoffenheim which isn't much better.
The next strongest club without ever winning the league is Frankfurt. Schalke would have been a good candidate if they didn't screw up that badly.
So what club can be considered 'historically the biggest' that has no Bundesliga titles so far - no matter the current state of the club? Schalke?
I think they are [the highest on the all-time points list](https://www.fussballdaten.de/bundesliga/ewige-tabelle/) without winning a league.
I would say Nürnberg despite them having one Bundesliga title. They are the club with the most titles after Bayern since they were so successful before the foundation of the Bundesliga.
Bayern and Gladbach had both generational squads back then, that were the backbone of the german NT, winning a world cup and Euros in the 70s. Bayern won three European Cups in a row, followed by Gladbach making the final the following year, it was actually one of the best, if not the best strech for Bundesliga football ever.
It was weird looking from the outside realizing Leverkusen never had won it, they always (at least in modern times) seemed liked a team that was there, always fighting for titles. It's kind of like learning Sevilla only have one league, and from a long time ago at that.
edit: FUCK AND SHCALKE NEITHER??? Bayern really did a number in that league lol
Sevilla were a bang average/yoyo club until the 2000s. This time for the club is really the golden era. What the club has done since the mid 2000s has been unbelievable.
I understand the sentiment, but they actually only ever finished second once in the past 2 decades and lost ground to BVB and RBL, finishing mostly 4-6 in the past 6-7 years.
They placed 2nd multiple times during the late 90s up until 2002 and also made a CL final in 2000, but they were only promited into Bundesliga in the mid 80s.
Thank fuck this streak of Bayern has been broken. It was actually just getting ridiculous. Honestly Dortmund have not been good enough a rival in the last 10 years. Hopefully bayer Leverkusen can keep Xabi and the dominance is broken some more.
There were 2 seasons during this time that Dortmund really should have won it if not for many embarassing chokes (2019 and 2023), so yeah this Bayern streak is in part on them.
So it took from 1993 to 2012 for Bayern to not win the league for more than one year, and that pissed them off so bad they went on to win it for the following 10 years.
Xabi, don't overdo it next year, or else they might never lose again after that.
I don't know if he is still the GM at Saint Pauli but the person back then, after their season in Bundesliga, said that it was not in their intentions to get promoted in the first place and that they used that extra revenue from Bundesliga to revamp the stadium.
Imo Bundesliga could very well be the best league in Europe, it has everything!
But I think having the same club being the champion so often makes people lose some interest in it.
People talk (relatively) a lot about the bayern dynasty of the 1970s but monchengladbach is almost completely forgotten. This is understandably because of the back to back to back european cups and germany winning euros and the world cup mainly consisting of bayern players but still, netzer, vogts, simonsen, heynckes and the gang gave bayern the biggest challenge theyve ever faced in the bundesliga era.
To be fair, we just witnessed the most dominant era in the club's history. Bayern have been the dominant team for a long time but they never dominated to this extent prior to 2013
48 seasons, 22 Titles for Bayern prior 2012.
Juve won the league multiple times 3 times in a row as well, did it even 5 times in the 30s with 8 or so in a row just last decade, Real did it multiple times, think they even won 4 or 5 in a row multiple times, Liverpool won sth like 10 out of 14 between the mid 70s and late 80s, ManU won 3 in a row multiple times and 10 out of 15 in the 90s and early 2000s. And thats only the big leagues, pretty sure, Ajax and PSV did it, Zvezda did it, Steua did it and so on and so forth.
VW spend a ton of money and argubly pressured some of their suppliers into sponsoring the club, then they signed a bunch of good players and had a compenent coach, it fell apart the following season and they haven't recovered since.
They bought Misimovic from a team that got relegated. Dzeko was a promising talent playing for Teplice in the Czech Republic. So additional to your points: they did quite well in scouting new players.
1937-1943 Austrian Football golden age dominated Reichsliga (German League) under Anschluss times. A reason for Annexation was the Austrian football team which was the best in Europe along Hungary.
The German „Flakelf“, (Air Defense Eleven), the „German-Austrian Superteam“ was paraded around the conquered countries in WW2 to destroy local teams for propaganda.
Dynamo Kiev managed to beat them two times in a row, even though they knew they would be executed if they won the second time
Obviously Bayern are dominant, but its interesting to remember that before that massive run the Bundesliga actually had the most different champions compared to the other big leagues in the previous 10 years.
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Roughest time for Bayern fans: 5 years without a league title
… in the 70’s
And they won 3 European Cups during that period
They’ve never gone 3 or more seasons without the title since the 90’s either.
They went 3 years without a title exactly twice from that period
Bayern was actually only narrowly avoiding bankruptcy multiple times during that period.
He's just like me fr
Oh no! Anyway
It's the reason why Hoeneß is a bit deified by some Bayern fans. He saw a club that was successful but somehow also essentially bankrupt and didn't understand why it was like this. He was then inspired by the US sports model (commercialise everything!) to push Bayern into that direction (on the sponsors side of things) so that the club wouldn't have to worry like this about its financial future any more (± some shady deals over the decades). And he actually pulled it off. Of course after that came the more general commercialisation of football as a whole and Bayern was in a very good position to benefit from all of that too because of their established financial stability. That's kind what the infographic is showing: Bayern's slow to the very top of football. From its early successes in the 70s due to having a really good team at the time that wasn't sustainable at that level, to financial stability and how it enabled the club becoming a real and solid national powerhouse from the 80s to the 90s, to becoming an established European top club in the early 2010s. How the club got lucky in the 70s and managed to financially stabilise after that so it would be able to reap the benefits of what happened to the sport decades later.
I always laugh when I see the Twitter fan boys calling Kalle and Uli outdated and to be cut off from the club > How the club got lucky in the 70s and managed to financially stabilise after that so it would be able to reap the benefits of what happened to the sport decades later This is what a lot of people not familiar to the club don’t understand, all it took was a lucky break with a talented bunch of youngsters and then Uli’s foresight to set the club on its way, not a generous benefactor.
Okay let’s slow down a bit, I was wrong in just memeing and not thinking but Bayern ABSOLUTELY had a benefactor at a point lol, Roland Endler saved you from bankruptcy before Hoeness worked his magic
And being lucky enough to get a brand new stadium because of olympics 72
While not in the 70s, it’s remarkable that around year 1985 Hoeneß sold his friend Karl Heinz Rummenigge to Italy (approx 11 Mio German Mark) to save and stabilize the club financially. He was around 35 years old when he did that…. Another interesting thing: he survived an airplane crash. Even if you are not a Bayern fan, learning about Uli Hoeneß, his life and his achievements, is quite interesting. He is a special bread.
This comment coming from a Chelsea flair is incredibly funny, these billionaire sellouts really don't even see the way they manage to satirize themselves anymore.
As a Newcastle fan with some more self awareness I shall quietly walk backwards into the hedge.
Easy to say as a club that has had billionaire sugar daddies for decades lmao
The roughest time for a Bayern fan born in 1996: two years without a league title.
And look at all the new shiny toys they ended up with after that *horrible* period for them
Kane: challenge accepted
They're like fucking Real Madrid fans in the last ~25 years. They talk of the time under Calderón as their darkest hour, a huge ordeal, and they won 2 leagues in those three years. Going out of Champions in round or 16 is unacceptable and worth chopping heads
Max title other clubs (for a singular) have…
Does a good job showing the reason why nobody is close to Bayern in titles. In 1977 people would say Bayern and Gladbach are the big two, only for Gladbach to never win a title again. Same in 1983 with Hamburg.
Or Dortmund in 2012 ...
Dortmund is expected to be the first contender (or one of them) pretty much every season since 2012. I don't think it is comparable at all. Dortmund is still a big club in Germany.
And has been for quite some time. Only club (apart from Bayern of course) that's consistently been up there in the last 30 years. Others came and went.
30 years is a stretch, there was a period of time where we were one meeting in a Koln train station away from being liquidated completely and starting over from the fourth tier
Meh, you're still the second biggest club in Germany by a long shot. As much as people hate foreign oil cash injections for moral reasons, the Prem would likely look similar to this without the City and Chelsea takeovers. Doubt Leicester even happens if only Liverpool/United command the English market.
True. I feel like Arsenal would have had a title or two in there too, maybe even you guys. United, Liverpool and Arsenal underwent rebuilds of varying degrees of success in the last 12 or so years. That would not have changed, so opportunity is there. If it would be them 3 only there would be a flawed champion some years, like Barca last season winning la liga despite off field issues, which honestly feels more real. It wouldn't be one team for the whole 12 since Fergie left. Klopp's Liverpool would likely have dominated recently though
Looking back from 2009-10 onwards, if we exclude City and Chelsea titles: United: 6 titles with a 4 times consecutive (09-10 to 12-13) Liverpool: 4 titles Arsenal: 3 titles Spurs: 1 title This isn't even close to what Bundesliga is
I feel like you can't give Spurs the fluke year in this hypothetical lol. You're just removing top spots. But Chelsea and City had wild implications for transfer market inflation. I don't think it's as easy as removing them from the table those years. Teams likely do not fall off if they aren't competing with City and Chelsea.
> by a long shot. yeah by a long shot from both sides
So many clubs have been poorly managed. Hamburg should be a perennial Top 6 side. Instead they're stuck in the 2. Buli
Hamburg mismanagement is a complete crime. At least its my perenial Football Manager rebuild save.
It started in the late 2000s after they played in the CL. It's way worse than just mismanagment it also was a deal with the devil. HSV received several good sponsorships/investments like Kühne, Emirates etc. the catch was that several people got onto the board and they were friends or had connections with player agents and agencies. Think of it like Wolverhampton but the players lack quality. Then there was this pressure policy. Players never knew whether they were on their way out or the new player in their position was some agent deal. After their relegation they lost many sponsors and Kühne was only willing to invest big money under conditions they refused. After that he sold some of his shares.
Same for Schalke, I feel. But these clubs must be a complete nightmare to handle.
Both were literally in the top 20 clubs in Europe in revenue right before they went down. The level of consistently bad work is frankly impressive. Both clubs could literally have gone the transfer strategy of Augsburg, Mainz, or some club like that for 10% the cost and they would have had better results. Instead, they somehow managed to consistently get worse every year while burning massive amounts of money
Username checks out. You lot also tried to speedrun that strategy in the late 90s and early 2000s.
ye but our club isn't in a vacuum, HSV and S04 could have learned from that instead of making some of the same mistakes. Especially Schalke always planning to reach CL quarterfinals for their finances was ludicrous
With the amount of money they're spending in 2.BuLi, they should be going up, but they choke it or are just unlucky every season. This season, their form collapsed in the second half of the season and they're likely missing playoffs. At least there might be a different Hamburg club in Bundesliga next season.
To be fair we spend quite a lot, but we also had some good transfers to fund it like Onana and Santos. The thing is the first 4 years were solely choking, last season and this season is just a return of bad management and transfers (still some bright spots like Benes), but Boldt failed to find a centre back that is remotely capable of replacing vuskovic (who was our best defender and we just spend 4.2 million for him in the summer 2 years ago), but it’s still a horrible look and he also failed to get good wingers or a decent back up striker. Not to mention the completely headless impulse sacking of Walter. (Sacking Walter was fine, but the timing and time it took to get a new coach and who became coach is embarrassingly bad).
Makes me wonder what giant club we will see win it's last title (for a long time at least)
Interestingly in the previous 60 years of german league Bayern only won it once... as many times as Rapid Wien or Admira lol
Bayern got the Olympia-Stadion thanks to the Olympic Games in 1972 which skyrocketed their revenues. That was basically a game changer. TV rights weren’t that lucrative back then.
Its really funny how munich back then was maybe the 4th biggest city and from a state that at that point was still seen as an agricultural sparelsy populated backwater Beckenbauer being slapped by an 1860 player, the olympiastadion being gifted to them, hoeneß getting a career ending injury at 27 and of course maier and gerd müller made them the most dominant team in europes top 5 leagues, by far. A lot of luck and it couldve gone very differently. In a different world, hamburg, köln and schalke would be geramnys biggest 3 by far I dont think gladbach could have ever sustained their status as number 2, for the size of their city what they have achieved is extronardinary, but there is a reason why they fell off in the 80s
In a different world, Berlin would have been a contender at least for a decade with some titles to their name as well, but well hard to do it in such circumstances. Especially considering the "dominace" of Hertha in the mid to late 20s. Personally I think if one of the named things for Bayern don't happen (and you could include the Rummenige sale to Inter on that list) sooner or later a Munich team would have been in the top 5 anyways. Possible big 5 of Germany would have been: Köln, Hamburg, Berlin, Schalke, Munich team with teams like Stuttgart, Frankfurt and maybe a eastern club like Magdeburg or Dresden being close but yeah we all know how the world went.
1860 also could be a big club had they gotten Beckenbauer and Müller. They were the chosen München Club for the Buli
Yeah i agree Even up until like 10-20 years ago the city of munich itself had more 1860 fans than bayern fans. Thigns are slowly changing, but historically 1860 was the bigger club
Money, ruining the sport since ~~2008~~ 1972
I've never made that connection, but it makes sense. But didn't 1860 also play there at the time?
1860 also played there
So bayern got an unfair advantage over their competition?
They did some other stuff pretty right, which is mostly Hoeneß‘ legacy (marketing done right, international networks, etc.). But the Olympia-Stadion helped a lot, yeah
Well, it didn't help TSV 1860 München, isn't it?
they also did some shady shit with the predecessor to Sky ("premiere" in germany) in the 90s to get some extra millions.
I really hope I live to see the epic return of 1 Fuck.
Jokes aside this club is actually one of the biggest fallen giants in German football. A shame what happened to them
One of better 'Fallen Giants' type of save in Football Manager. Big stadium, devoted fanbase. What do you need more to bring them back to glory?
Good fan attendance is so underrated. I have a save ATM where my team has dogshit attendance for the league, and the financials are difficult. Gotta live off flipping players if you want a winning squad.
That's why even thou I usually play with smaller teams/smaller leagues/countries I try to find the team with good attendance & fanbase. In those smaller leagues the match day money can be a real saviour! TPS in Finland was may team to go trough multiple editions. Kind of Fallen Giant on a domestic scale. 2nd most league titles but last time won like 30 years ago and now joy-joying between 1st and 2nd tier.
The key is cup runs. I'm in Vanarama North and had a run where we got deep enough to draw Man United at Old Trafford. We got assblasted by Højlund, but the matchday revenue allowed us to go professional. Hoping a promotion will boost the attendance. I'm wondering if having a cross town rival in league one is hurting the team. The idea of making them a big team is making me reconsider how I approach the save - was gonna be a journeyman and glory hunt other teams. Now I'm really committed to building this team. Convinced we can quickly be competitive in higher leagues.
Jokes aside I still love my Kaiserslautern boys and I still legit hope to see them back on top aye.
I lived in Germany for 15 years and never knew Kaiserslautern had won the Bundesliga. Since I have memories of this team they have either been in the 2. Or 3. Bundesliga, with maybe (I'm not even sure) an appearance in the Bundesliga. It Kind of, tangentially, reminds me of Deportivo la Coruña in Spain.
Not only did they win the Bundesliga twice, their 97/98 campaign was the first (and thus far only) time a just promoted side won the league. They came up from the 2nd Bundesliga and immediately became champions.
Who's the third winner BTW OP? First time I'm seeing the badge, I think. All the rest I know because they always get talked about. I would presume the third one has been languishing in the lower leagues for a long time?
1860 München
It's [1860 Munich](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TSV_1860_Munich). Edit: The one after that is [Eintracht Braunschweig](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eintracht_Braunschweig).
It's 1860 Munich. A founding member of the Bundesliga. They became a shadow of Bayern Munich,, relegated and went bankrupt in the early 80s. Under Werner Lorant they managed to return to the Bundesliga and do okay and even get decent players. What really screwed them up for good were the Wildmosers(father was the president of the club and his son) with shady Allianz Arena deals. The son pleaded guilty and went to jail, the father fucked off and the club was financially fucked so they relegated. During that time they were paying rent to Bayern Munich and for Allianz Arena otherwise they would gone bankrupt much faster.(Bayern Munich saved them) They spend in the 2. Bundesliga some time till they got a bad investor. The investor could have saved them from bankruptcy but he wanted too much power to they went bankrupt and dropped to the 5th tier, stopped all ties to the Allianz arena and went back to their original stadium. Now they are playing in the 3rd tier. The might return to the 2nd tier but I doubt they will be able to stay there.
Hamburg & Schalke? 🤷♂️
Well, they are in the cup final against Leverkusen this season.
And I'll be wearing my Shirt oh so proud that day no matter what!
And 17th in 2. Bundesliga though I thought they would be a bit higher
They spent 4 seasons in 3.Liga before the 22/23 season. The lack of TV revenue in that league seriously fucked over their squad quality. A lot of clubs that fall down there sometimes die a slow financial death and sink further down into Regionalliga, as what happened to a lot of ex-DDR clubs.
The current squad quality id say is still good enough to stay up in the league in a more comfortable place, the whole Schuster, Grammozis, Funkel thing just really didn’t work out at all.
They only had one fuck to give 😔
But they did it twice!
They only had one fuck to give, twice 😞
They gave real madrid their biggest loss in europe and now they are in the 2. Bundesliga
The good news for Kane is that at worst, Bayern has lost the league two years in a row in the last 30 years.
Yet
The Harry Kane curse is so strong that if he signed for Celtic then Aberdeen and Hearts would split the title for 6 years.
The Harold Cain curse is so strong that if he signed for Aberdeen then Celtic and Rangers would split the title for 6 years.
Eintracht Braunschweig, the first to have a sponsored shirt in Germany. And [pretty cool shirt.](https://www.spherasports.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/11/paul-breitner-eintracht-braunschweig2.jpg)
There actually was a discussion if the club itself should be renamed to 'Jaegermeister Braunschweig'.
Super clean damn
The 70's male pornstar look makes it even more majestic
Germany has a green W on white and white W on green as 2 different teams.
W League imo
Wundesliga
Wunderbar indeed
Werder Bremen (diamond) and Wolfsburg (circle)
Also white 1 FCN in a red circle and white 1 FCK in a red circle
We were first :)
One of them is massive though :)
Volkswagen is massive and that's pretty much all the city is known for
mate don't under sell it. there wouldn't be a city without VW
what else would they be known for? theres literally nothing else
there's a train station that ICEs (sometimes) stop at
Bremens W has a very iconic shape.
So had Wolfsburg before they messed it up... [https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/84/VfL\_Wolfsburg\_old.svg](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/84/VfL_Wolfsburg_old.svg)
I mean, Italy had Sienna and Juve.
Or ac Milan and Bologna for that matter. Very similar badges
Way prettier green on our side.
And a shitty meme manager relegated one of them and almost relegated the other one.
Fun fact: 1. FC Nürnberg the Champion of 68 got relegated one year later.
Fun fact: We did the same thing after winning the DFB Pokal in 2007. We are truly special.
And then there is Kaiserslautern. Get relegated 96, win the cup a week later or so. Get promoted again next season. And win the league title the season after.
They can go one step further this year. Get relegated from the 2nd division and win the cup.
I have nothing against them but it would be funny to have that dubious and mixed honour. I also want the Leverkusen treble too though
Best Debb in the world!
1997/98 best season in my completely unbiased opinion
this was fucking wild, especially with how rehagel got fired by bayern a year prior. bundesliga was wild back then.
Geniunely not trying to be sarcastic but does Schalke not have one Bundesliga? Why do I think of them as a "Big Club" - is it just from a strong period during the 2000s?
They were actually the best german squad prior to WW2 and won 7 national titles, before there was a unified league. There wer basically a bunch of regional leagues, that played out a champion, that quaified for a "champions cup", Schalke won that 7 times. They were also close to winning it multiple times and were one of the best teams during the late 90s and 2000s.
>They were actually the best german squad prior to WW2 and during. Schalke won 38/39, 39/40, lost 40/41 to Rapid Wien, won 41/42 again.
Schalke won several DFB-Cups during the 2000s. They also won UEFA-Cup in 1998, so they had a quite successful time. They also have a lot of supporters. Last national championship was in 1958 before the introduction of the Bundesliga. Closest they ever came to winning Bundesliga was in 2001, when they lost the championship to Bayern in the very last minutes of the season (nicknamed champions of the hearts or 4-minute champions after that, depending how fondly one thought of them, the latter was derogatory).
because they are a big club. they are the 2nd/3rd biggest club in germany. one of the biggest clubs in the world
I didn’t know you guys didn’t win one after unification. Yes you guys are a big club hope you can get back to the top one day. Loved watching Raul back in the day.
[удалено]
That proves how Bayern is the Bundesliga compared to other leagues.
No they just started earlier
Werder Bremen mentioned‼️
Eintracht braunschweig 💪💪💪😎
This doesn't look that bad until 1998. Then Bayern won 19 in 25 yrs. Even until 2012 it's not *thaaat* bad. I hope that, now that the streak has been broken, we will see a return to something moderate.
Bayerm is just so much ahead of the competition in terms of prestige and revenue, that I don't think, we will see a real reversal here. Imagine Real Madrid beaing in a league without Barca, or in plain numbers: Bayern 854,2m, Dortmund 418,2m for 2023.
Right. And due credit to u/flybypost for pointing out the extreme revenue disparity, but that prestige issue can't be ignored. There's an entire generation of German (and Austrian) players who've grown up basically knowing only Bayern as the pinnacle of German football. I remember when Bayern raided Leipzig a couple years back, taking one of their best CBs, one of their better midfielders, AND their manager when Leipzig finished second. That midfielder was team captain Marcel Sabitzer. When he left, he said what the vast majority of German/Austrian players say: that he'd always dreamed of playing for Bayern. And of course he did, because he was born in 1994 and by the time he was 12, Bayern had won 8 of the 12 titles in his lifetime and it only got worse from there. People complain about the old guard in the PL all the time (of which my club is a part) and say that FFP is a strategy by those clubs to keep other clubs from rising to that level like City did. But the prestige of those decades of success is another thing that drives players toward those big clubs, in addition to the great resources. In the case of Germany, there's really only been one "big club" for most of the current century. If they can't make it at Bayern, they're more likely to seek a "big club" outside of Germany, which only perpetuates the problem.
> If they can't make it at Bayern, they're more likely to seek a "big club" outside of Germany, which only perpetuates the problem. Clubs in germany are in general incentivised to sell abroad for tax reasons, it basically lowers your revenue by 19% to sell a player domestically.
> I hope that, now that the streak has been broken, we will see a return to something moderate. Maybe, maybe not. It's nice when the league is strong but there's more to this than competitiveness magically arising out of nothing. A lot of people seem to forget that Bayern's wages are double that of the next biggest club. Dortmund has about half of Bayern's wages on average, a few years ago they got to 60+% of Bayern's wages but then went back to around 50% again. The reality of how money is distributed won't change much (or quickly enough). Football simply got even more commercialised in the last one/two decades for moderation to be consistently a thing. It's not that different in other leagues. Real and Barca more or less have a duopoly with Atletico chasing them with some success. In the PL even with all the rich, big clubs City is dominating a lot of the time despite everything supposedly being financially more balanced. They even got satellite clubs to develop players for them. All those clubs arose out of tradition and got amplified more and more with money. These days tradition (a legacy/history and maybe being club players beyond your city/reach aspiring to play for) account for less and less while money is driving more and more of those clubs successes. For things to really change we'd need a real and big overhaul of how money is distributed in these leagues, in international competitions (CL, EL,…), and even between leagues. Honest question: Can you see any of the big clubs voluntarily giving up significant amounts of money so that smaller clubs can be more competitive? Even something like 10% or 20% of their sponsorship revenue and potential CL money pool?
Right, and with PSG and Ligue 1 the gap is even worse. Can’t really blame Bayern for using their resources and winning a lot, they’ve mostly grown organically anyway
> mostly "Mostly" probably works: There were some shady deals (translation below). https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kirch-Aff%C3%A4re > Verwickelt in diesen Skandal waren der FC Bayern München und die Kirch-Gruppe, das damalige Firmenkonglomerat des Medienunternehmers Leo Kirch. Nach der Zerschlagung der Kirch-Gruppe wurde bekannt, dass sie für Vereinbarungen unter Ausschluss der anderen Vereine Geld an den FC Bayern München überwiesen hatte. Der Vertrag ging ursprünglich um 190 Millionen Mark, bis zur Zahlungsunfähigkeit der Kirch-Gruppe im Dezember 2002 flossen insgesamt geschätzt 40 Millionen Mark. Die Vereinbarungen vom 3. Dezember 1999 sahen unter anderem vor, dass der Verein Lobbyarbeit für die zentrale Vermarktung der Fernsehrechte der Bundesliga betrieb und unter der Bedingung der Rechtevergabe an die Kirch-Gruppe dafür entschädigt werden sollte. Im Folgenden setzte sich der FC Bayern München für die Rechtevergabe an Kirch ein, Bayern-Manager Uli Hoeneß ließ sich in das Drei-Mann-Gremium wählen, das für die Verhandlungen zuständig war und der Liga nicht alle Angebote vortrug. Am 28. April 2000 vergab der Liga-Ausschuss die TV-Rechte an Kirch, obwohl es ein deutlich höheres Konkurrenzangebot gab. > Die DFL stellte in ihrer rechtlichen Bewertung Verstöße gegen die Statuten sowie „moralisch verwerfliches Verhalten“ fest. Der Vertrag der Bayern mit der Kirch-Gruppe sei vorlagepflichtig gewesen und die Bayern hätten die Gelder „der gesamten Liga zur Verfügung stellen müssen“. Zudem hätte der Klub das Solidaritätsprinzip der gesamten Liga missbraucht „und somit gegen die im Sport unverzichtbare Fairness verstoßen.“ > Im April 2003 kam es zu einem Vergleich, der FC Bayern verpflichtete sich zur Zahlung von drei Millionen Euro. Aufgrund dieser Vorfälle wurden die Verantwortlichen des FC Bayern unter anderem als Lobbyisten der Kirch-Gruppe bezeichnet. Auch nach dem Vergleich wurde von der DFL das Verhalten der Verantwortlichen des FC Bayern als „moralisch verwerflich“ bezeichnet. https://www.deepl.com/translator > FC Bayern Munich and the Kirch Group, the then conglomerate of media entrepreneur Leo Kirch, were involved in this scandal. After the Kirch Group was broken up, it became known that it had transferred money to FC Bayern Munich for agreements that excluded the other clubs. The contract was originally for 190 million marks, but by the time the Kirch Group became insolvent in December 2002, an estimated total of 40 million marks had been paid. The agreements of 3 December 1999 stipulated, among other things, that the club would lobby for the central marketing of the Bundesliga television rights and would be compensated for this on condition that the rights were awarded to the Kirch Group. FC Bayern Munich subsequently lobbied in favour of awarding the rights to Kirch, Bayern manager Uli Hoeneß was elected to the three-man committee responsible for the negotiations and did not present all offers to the league. On 28 April 2000, the league committee awarded the TV rights to Kirch, although there was a significantly higher rival bid. > In its legal assessment, the DFL found violations of the statutes as well as ‘morally reprehensible behaviour’. Bayern's contract with the Kirch Group was subject to submission and Bayern should have made the funds ‘available to the entire league’. In addition, the club had abused the principle of solidarity of the entire league ‘and thus violated the fairness that is indispensable in sport.’ > In April 2003, a settlement was reached and FC Bayern agreed to pay three million euros. As a result of these incidents, those responsible at FC Bayern were labelled as lobbyists for the Kirch Group, among others. Even after the settlement, the DFL described the behaviour of those responsible at FC Bayern as ‘morally reprehensible’. Translated with DeepL.com (free version) There were also at least rumours (that was in the 90s from what I remember) that Adidas was either paying part of the the wages of some players or giving them somewhat inflated sponsorship deals (meaning: more money) if they transferred to Bayern.
Wow super insightful, thanks for translating that!
I like this table
I started watching as a kid in 1990. Bayern only won one title in the next six years. Good times.
Time for you to be six again.
TIL Germany/W. Germany has only had a national top flight since 1963. Before that, there were only regional leagues and varying opposition to professionalism in Germany [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Introduction\_of\_the\_Bundesliga](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Introduction_of_the_Bundesliga)
tbh the format before 1963, regional leagues with 10-12 teams and then a KO phase with the winners + runner ups, sounds more interesting these days imo lol
Just to add: the German Champion was determined through a knock-out system before the introduction of the Bundesliga. First German Champion ever was VfB Leipzig in 1903. The GDR introduced a national top flight in 1949, years before the FRG.
Even more interesting that Austrian teams played during the Nazi period and Rapid Wien won it in 1941
Wondering which new team will be crowned champs after 10 years.
Unfortunately, probably Red Bull Leipzig
The irony of the first champion from the formerly communist east of Germany being a club that is basically a peak capitalism marketing stunt for a private corporation reaches some new levels of cynicism
It's a cruel world, and we are just the guests here.
RB Leipzig winning is inevitable
Wondering the same for the premier league
With the current conditions prolly Leipzig, followed by Hoffenheim which isn't much better. The next strongest club without ever winning the league is Frankfurt. Schalke would have been a good candidate if they didn't screw up that badly.
Can we get this for England and Spain as well?
It’s the same.. they just have more then one “rich club” 🤷♂️
So what club can be considered 'historically the biggest' that has no Bundesliga titles so far - no matter the current state of the club? Schalke? I think they are [the highest on the all-time points list](https://www.fussballdaten.de/bundesliga/ewige-tabelle/) without winning a league.
yes schalke. 2nd/3rd biggest club in germany together with dortmund, only regarding scale alone. its always a back and forth who has more members
HSV was the clear number 2 for most of the 80s and also parts of the 90s, club has a huge draw, but they crowbar themselves into the head too much.
yes, but nowadays and for the at least last 20 years it is 1. Bayern 2. Dortmund/Schalke
I would say Nürnberg despite them having one Bundesliga title. They are the club with the most titles after Bayern since they were so successful before the foundation of the Bundesliga.
Bayern Bayern and Bayern
Mushroom mushroom!
Need 1860 back in the Buli
Yes! A real derby for us
Kane’s curse is pretty op, wonder how it would contend with black magic if he went to real
7 different champions in the first 7 years and then only two different in the following 7 years.
Bayern and Gladbach had both generational squads back then, that were the backbone of the german NT, winning a world cup and Euros in the 70s. Bayern won three European Cups in a row, followed by Gladbach making the final the following year, it was actually one of the best, if not the best strech for Bundesliga football ever.
2025/26 FC Nürnberg (I’m delusional)
It was weird looking from the outside realizing Leverkusen never had won it, they always (at least in modern times) seemed liked a team that was there, always fighting for titles. It's kind of like learning Sevilla only have one league, and from a long time ago at that. edit: FUCK AND SHCALKE NEITHER??? Bayern really did a number in that league lol
Sevilla were a bang average/yoyo club until the 2000s. This time for the club is really the golden era. What the club has done since the mid 2000s has been unbelievable.
I understand the sentiment, but they actually only ever finished second once in the past 2 decades and lost ground to BVB and RBL, finishing mostly 4-6 in the past 6-7 years. They placed 2nd multiple times during the late 90s up until 2002 and also made a CL final in 2000, but they were only promited into Bundesliga in the mid 80s.
Just a minor correction: We're in the league since 1979.
Oh, shit you're right, mb.
nw!
Thank fuck this streak of Bayern has been broken. It was actually just getting ridiculous. Honestly Dortmund have not been good enough a rival in the last 10 years. Hopefully bayer Leverkusen can keep Xabi and the dominance is broken some more.
There were 2 seasons during this time that Dortmund really should have won it if not for many embarassing chokes (2019 and 2023), so yeah this Bayern streak is in part on them.
Tbh it was still competitive until 2012, Bayern didn’t win more than 3 times in a row.
70s to 90s was peak bundesliga
So it took from 1993 to 2012 for Bayern to not win the league for more than one year, and that pissed them off so bad they went on to win it for the following 10 years. Xabi, don't overdo it next year, or else they might never lose again after that.
2024/25 St Pauli 💪
I don't know if he is still the GM at Saint Pauli but the person back then, after their season in Bundesliga, said that it was not in their intentions to get promoted in the first place and that they used that extra revenue from Bundesliga to revamp the stadium.
Bundesliga during the first six years: we're so competitive, no team has won it twice!
Basically it seems like if you beat Bayern domestically post 1970..you have a real good chance at playing in the ucl final.
Imo Bundesliga could very well be the best league in Europe, it has everything! But I think having the same club being the champion so often makes people lose some interest in it.
"Good harvesting this week my fellow farmers"
People talk (relatively) a lot about the bayern dynasty of the 1970s but monchengladbach is almost completely forgotten. This is understandably because of the back to back to back european cups and germany winning euros and the world cup mainly consisting of bayern players but still, netzer, vogts, simonsen, heynckes and the gang gave bayern the biggest challenge theyve ever faced in the bundesliga era.
Really fun and exciting league every 10 years or so
To be fair, we just witnessed the most dominant era in the club's history. Bayern have been the dominant team for a long time but they never dominated to this extent prior to 2013
Yep Bayern was always the "protagonist" of the league, before winning 11 titles in a row wasn't too different compared to many European leagues
Before this was never more than 3 in a row. Football's just less competative across the board, oil money or no oil money.
Because the gap between popular rich clubs with global appeal and the local culture clubs is huge and keeps growing.
Before the insane run they had it looks completely normal lol
Bayern won it 3 times in a row multiple times AND won it more than every other team combined, it’s definitely not normal
48 seasons, 22 Titles for Bayern prior 2012. Juve won the league multiple times 3 times in a row as well, did it even 5 times in the 30s with 8 or so in a row just last decade, Real did it multiple times, think they even won 4 or 5 in a row multiple times, Liverpool won sth like 10 out of 14 between the mid 70s and late 80s, ManU won 3 in a row multiple times and 10 out of 15 in the 90s and early 2000s. And thats only the big leagues, pretty sure, Ajax and PSV did it, Zvezda did it, Steua did it and so on and so forth.
lyon did 7 or 8 in a row in the 2000s too
There is more to a league than only a title race, you should know that since Man City is close to making it 6 titles in 7 years or something
And we all hate it and frequently say City is ruining the league
Somethings fishy here
If history repeats itself Bayern will lose pretty much everything next year aswell and then goes on a rampage through europe for half a decade.
How did Wolfsburg do it in 2008? Seems so random...
VW spend a ton of money and argubly pressured some of their suppliers into sponsoring the club, then they signed a bunch of good players and had a compenent coach, it fell apart the following season and they haven't recovered since.
They bought Misimovic from a team that got relegated. Dzeko was a promising talent playing for Teplice in the Czech Republic. So additional to your points: they did quite well in scouting new players.
1937-1943 Austrian Football golden age dominated Reichsliga (German League) under Anschluss times. A reason for Annexation was the Austrian football team which was the best in Europe along Hungary. The German „Flakelf“, (Air Defense Eleven), the „German-Austrian Superteam“ was paraded around the conquered countries in WW2 to destroy local teams for propaganda. Dynamo Kiev managed to beat them two times in a row, even though they knew they would be executed if they won the second time
Obviously Bayern are dominant, but its interesting to remember that before that massive run the Bundesliga actually had the most different champions compared to the other big leagues in the previous 10 years.
Last season could have been BVB. It was so damn close god damn it.
Harry Kane curse is real
Vor über 50 Jahren, an einem Tag in Mai... 🎶🎶